EP 2:13 Storytelling in Recovery with Ed

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times, probably. There is no one way to heal in recovery. Each one of us bring our own unique set of life experience to the table that sets our journey apart from everyone else's. This is why I have a very hard time with blanket recovery programs that claim addiction is addiction, and if you do it this way, you'll be successful. No deviation. I've seen guys turn to poetry, writing music, yoga, screenplay, painting, etc., etc., that heals their heart and soul in deep ways that only they could explain. Find out what works for you. This is the beauty of recovery— empowering yourself to connect with who you are, your values, and your own distinct healing modality. Today's guest has not used meth but creates these incredibly powerful graphic novels and comic books about the chemsex scene among men who have sex with men. I was shocked to learn that he hadn't used because they are incredibly accurate, except for a few little things which we discussed in the podcast. And it's also amazing that this is a reflection of the British chemsex scene that is Exactly what we see over here in the chemsex scene, scene among men who have sex with men. I've really never witnessed this type of representation of the underground world that so many of us have experienced. These comic books are raw and definitely uncensored, but tell the story of chemsex in the LGBTQ+ community. Ed is a storyteller, and you'll hear about his own personal healing journey and why he is dedicated to bringing light to the subject. He is on the front lines of saying, hey, there is an epidemic going on in our community and we need to do something about it. And he is in a very impactful way. And I hope that you are encouraged to tell your story after hearing our conversation today. And I pray that you feel seen and heard and inspired to join us in getting attention paid to, as he says, the biggest healthcare crisis in the queer community since AIDS. Thank you.

Enjoy.

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for joining us. If you are a new listener, welcome. If you've been with us for a while, welcome back. Appreciate you and your support of this podcast. Season 2 has been so fun so far, and I actually moved in the middle of it, and I was listening to a few of the recent podcasts, and it sounds like I'm screaming. So the set we're getting— I'm working on the sound quality is what I'm trying to say. It sounds like I'm literally just screaming. When you try to listen back. So I am backed away from the microphone on this one. I'm watching the tone of my voice so that I'm not screaming in your radio or your ears or your headphones, whatever it is, however you take in this podcast. Don't forget, there is a supplemental study guide that comes along with every podcast. It is— the link will be in the show notes, or you can get it by email if you subscribe to my blog, and it is at Dr. Dallas Bragg. Bragg.com. Um, there is a free Facebook community, the Aftermath Podcast Community. You can join there for free and interact with us. Um, I ask your advice on podcast topics, or how do you like the podcast so far, what do you want to hear. We also support each other on our recovery journey. You can watch this podcast on YouTube, The Aftermath Podcast. If you try to search for me in the— for this podcast, make sure that you do not let the phone Autocorrect to aftermath. It will do that because aftermath is not a word. So make sure it doesn't do that or you will not find me. I hear it all the time. I can't find you. You're nowhere. I'm like, well, I'm actually everywhere, but you have to change the A to an E. Yes. So be sure to share the podcast on your social medias as well if you can, your stories or whatever. I would love to get this— the algorithm bringing this podcast out to more people who want to hear it. Today we're talking about and talking to a very talented gentleman named Ed, and we're talking about storytelling in recovery. Let me just introduce Ed before we let him speak. Ed Firth is the East London artist and writer behind the Pound Shop Zine Cycle. So if you don't know what a zine is, kind of a— it's just a smaller niche magazine. I didn't know. I had to, um, I had to Google all the— I had to Google a lot of words in your profile, in your about. I didn't know what Poundshop, but Poundshop is kind of your brand, right? I saw cards, I saw prints, I saw ceramics, I saw all kinds of things. And we'll get into that a little more. And the ongoing Horny and High anthology comic series is exploring British chemsex subculture among gay men in 2010s London. Volume 1 was shortlisted for the Myriad First Graphic Novel competition out of 150 15 entries and described by queer comics legend Ralph O'Koenig as telling a truth only the bowels can understand. And if you— but when we get into this, you'll understand what he's saying, that there he— Ed has told a truth in these graphic comics that only those who have experienced it— oddly enough, he hasn't completely— but will understand. Volume 2, Attitude magazine said subject matter, storytelling, and sheer artistry collide with exquisite dexterity. The endless chase of the high, the cruel psychosis of comedown, powerfully captured here. It's incredible work. It really is incredible work. A graphic novel reviewer from a left-wing broadcast set, too graphic for a family newspaper. In 2022, his autobiographical comic, The Lift, placed second in the Observer/Favor and Favor/Graphics short story competition. And recently, he was declared by Broken Frontier as one of their 6 to watch Emerging small press creators in 2023. Volume 1 and 2 of High and Horny are now available in Germany in the translated edition. That's really nice. Via the published house Salzgeber. Salzgeber. Sorry, I can't say this word even though I practice it. I cannot say this word, but Butch Virelert. That is the most butchered, butchered pronunciation that I could come up with. And in the US through Northwest Press, I was able to order and had delivered to my home. He is currently writing volume three of High and Horny in between portrait and illustration commissions and running East London Life Drawing, established in 2015, as well as volunteering for Controlling Chemsex as a support key worker, supporting people making changes in their life around sex and drug use. All right, Ed, welcome to the podcast.

Hello, Dr. Dallas. Thank you.

Nice to meet you. So yes, it's nice to meet you. So glad to have you and so glad to offer. something that's so unique. Um, I, I just, you know, we, we've been on the Zoom calls for Controlling Chemsex for a while, but I had no idea there was this whole, this whole production behind you and what you did. Um, until I think you've— you commented on something, one of my reels, I think. And when I went to you to see who— to kind of look at your profile, I was like, oh, that's Ed. Um, and then I started digging and I was like, oh my God, there's so much here. Um, So the first thing I saw was your comic book, your graphic novel series. If you're watching, I'm holding them up. If you're not watching, I'm holding up 2 books. They're comic books, High and Horny Volume 1, High and Horny Volume 2. And the way that you draw, the way that— it's not even your drawing, it's the way you present the story. Because I'll be honest with you, I don't know if I've ever actually read a comic book. I've Just not a typical, I guess, I don't know. I just was not a comic book person. Not even like an Archie, like Archie and Veronica, you know, those old comic books. I don't think I've ever read a comic book. But the way that you have presented the story and the way that it's drawn, I don't know the word for it, but it's just creativity beyond what I've seen before. So I just want to say, I want to acknowledge and celebrate your creative expression. Thank you. That's very kind. You're welcome. So tell me, what got you into graphic novels? And I'm assuming you've always drawn, I guess, from a little— from a wee lad.

Yeah, I was always actually making kind of— I was always self-publishing, really. I was making little things. I would make trading cards and like picture books and things. And, you know, for a while I was in primary school, elementary— no, what would you call it? Anyway, before high school.

Yeah, yeah.

That part of the timeline. I would run home and I would make a storybook to bring in the next day. I got like hooked into this cycle of the adulation and people enjoying my little stories. And it was fan fiction, really. It was a character I'd seen on TV. And I thought like, at the time I didn't know anything about fan fiction. So I was just like, oh, no one must ever know that I lifted this character from the television. When now I look back and go, no, that's like a very valid form of making art.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but yeah, that's how kind of isolated I was. Uh, it was— it's always been a very, uh, one-person operation, and I really like that, um, that independence. I'm not really that interested in working with people. publishers or anything. I really like doing it myself. But, um, yeah, it's always been like that, and I've always been very productive, always been very comfortable with my own company. Um, I'm just beavering away alone in my room and making up stuff. For who? I don't know. For myself. I've always been my own audience as well. Um, and I make these comics very much just with myself in mind. Obviously, other people are gonna be buying them and enjoying them, but I think you can preserve an integrity in your storytelling if you are very clear who it's for, and especially if it's for yourself. That's usually the wisdom that people will give to writers, is write for yourself. What would you want to read? Because otherwise, you're second-guessing. But yeah, that's always come very naturally, and I can't really imagine trying to write for some other, some imagined audience and trying to imagine what they want to see.

I think it's really good advice right there. I think because, you know, there's so many guys that I talk to who are in, who are in current active addiction, chemsex, and who are out. And we all have just the stories of a lifetime, right? I mean, the shit that goes on I mean, obviously, a lot of it's captured in these books, in these comic books, but the shit that goes on is just wild. And there's a lot of people who will come to me and say, I want to write my stories. I want to tell it. But they're really concerned, I think, on who's going to read it. So what you're saying is write it for you. What do you want to read? Is that how you—

Yeah.

approach all of your art?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, if people are thinking about telling their own story, yeah, there's that fear of self-disclosure. And the number of people who, in reviewing this, or they post about my work online, they're like, oh, obviously, this is his life experience. Obviously, this is, you know, his own history of addiction. I haven't tried meth, and I haven't tried G. I've tried mephedrone, MCAT, and it stinks. It's not for me. But this is— these are not my stories. It's— I've drawn on my own experience. I've been in— I've had lots of group sex situations, and I hope there'll be many more. And I've been to druggy parties. And, you know, I've seen the sort of worst kind of homosocial behavior and the best. So there's a lot of emotional truth and emotional experience in these books. Also, after— it was only when I was inking volume 2, the penny dropped for me about what they're really about, like what they're really saying about me. And I think if I had figured that out earlier, if I'd figured that out before I embarked on the first one, before I'd finished the first one, I don't know if I would have really been able to see it through. I would have started changing things, and then there would have been that— kind of second-guessing and thinking about what will other people think of me, rather than just, I'm making this because it's what I want to make. So it's— yeah, I don't know, sometimes too much analysis or too much self-knowledge can be a dangerous thing and can impede you from telling a story. So I don't know, if people want to tell their story, they absolutely should. And I do think For me, I couldn't have made these graphic novels before I went to therapy. So I did therapy in about 2018, and I saw 2 therapists. I saw 2 therapists at the same time, which I probably shouldn't have done. Basically, I called up one therapy place, and they took all my details, and they said, okay, we'll call you back in 4 months. I said, what do you mean 4 months? And they said, yeah, there's a waiting list of 4 months. And I said, but I'm crazy now. Um, so I thought I was telling my friend about it who had experience with, um, homelessness and, and addiction and, um, uh, and therapy, and he recommended somewhere else. So I rang them up like the same day or the next day, and they took all my details and they said, okay, we'll ring you back in 4 months.

Yeah.

So 4 months to the day, uh, they both rang me up and I just said yes to both of them because I thought, well, I'll I'll try them both. And the one that's good, I'll continue with. Well, they were both good. Twice a week for about 14 weeks. I saw 2 different therapists.

Wow.

It was so powerful. Because I had never— I didn't realize this. This was not something I knew about myself. But I had never told my full life story to somebody and really unpacked everything and gone back over things. and come back in the next week and said, oh, that thing I told you last week or 2 weeks ago, we're going back over that again.

Mm-hmm.

Just to really feel that we'd gone back and forth and covered everything. And, you know, even your most empathetic friend or the best listener, you know, can't really do that for you. They wouldn't really be able to. You can't really ask that of them, that they just listen and they're not interrupting, they're not offering their take on things, they're not trying to soothe you and go, oh, maybe, you know, maybe that person had their reasons for doing that, or, They're just not interjecting in any way or taking the steering wheel off of you. And you have that opportunity with a therapist to absolutely tell everything if you want to, if you're ready to. And that was so transformative for me. And only after that was I then able to start the stories, work on them, and finish them. And volume 2 took 16 months of work, and I didn't know I was someone who could work on something For 16 months and be self-motivated for that time and see it through. I didn't know that. I didn't know— I would not have guessed that was something I could do. And if you told me that's how long it was going to take, I would have gone, well, that's too long. I'll do something else. So, so it was a transformative experience to tell my life story, for me to absolutely fully self-disclose everything and in the process, you know, learn things about myself because it Whatever stage of your life you're telling your story, obviously your story's got bigger, longer, the, the older you get, and then your perspective changes. The, the inessential fades away. And to do it therapeutically with a therapist, you can get the most clarity on it. What I discovered, what I've discovered through volunteering with Controlling Chemsex, Um, as a key worker, uh, and as a key worker, or as you've put it, similar to coaching, I'm spending an hour a week with somebody for 8 weeks, and we're just discussing where they're at, what they want to do, if they want to make any changes, if they're concerned about, um, using chems, whether they want to continue, and if so, how, how can we Reduce harm. Um, and, uh, people are telling me stories that they're not telling their husband, they're not telling their therapist, they're not telling their family, um, and they're not telling work. They're not telling their best friends. Like, these are things that are so powerful and life-altering. Um, sometimes they've been through some really serious stuff. Sometimes they've done serious things and they've done things they regret. And these stories they're having to keep entirely to themselves until they're talking to someone at Controlling Chemsex. And that's the kind of thing I want to be able to do in the work, is to share those stories that people just wouldn't be able to. And after the books came out, so many people who I know, who, you know, maybe I know through my artwork, maybe I know them through my life drawing sessions, um, or friends, have, uh, contacted me and said, you know, actually I went through a phase that was a year of my life, or when I was with a partner for a while, we got into this stuff. And they're telling me stories, had absolutely no idea that they had experience with, with chemsex or addiction. Um, so that— so to be able to tell stories on behalf of people and to connect people and give people the courage, um, and the perspective and create the conditions under which they can share their stories, that feels incredible. That feels very meaningful. And that's one of the things that keeps me writing these stories, working on volume 3 now.

Wow. Thank you. So what I'm hearing is in the process of— you were double-fisting a therapist, therapy, which was— I love that. I love that you were doing that. And And through that process, it wasn't just— I mean, telling your story was therapeutic for you, right? Because it sounds like you were telling everybody else's story as you grew up, right? I mean, you were busy telling everyone else's story, but maybe you weren't diving into your own. Does that resonate with you?

Possibly. I like to think I was there for people and listening to their stories, but Well, as you, as you created art though, you were telling other stories, right?

And you're saying that you hadn't dove into your own until you went to therapy?

I would say I thought I was expressing myself, but I didn't really know what my story was, so I didn't tell it. I think it'd be more like that, that I was just skimming the surface and not really knowing what was underneath it.

I see. Yeah, great. And through that process, you You were able to purge. You were able to really be set free, it sounds like, in a way that now through these specific comic books, you're trying to help others feel that same thing, do the same thing. Is that right? Give them the space, give them the opportunity to have their story known because it helped you so much. Is that fair?

I— the reason I write about this stuff is, I mean, so a friend told me, I think back in 2014, um, he told me about this, this night he'd had. And this story he told me, 7 years later— I, I wrote it down, um, when he told me, and it was 7 years later before I figured out what I could do with this because it was such a compelling story and I didn't know At the time, I wasn't doing comics at all. It was something that one day I'll do it. Well, 7 years later, I'd be doing it, but I didn't know. So, you know, it took that long. And when I got serious about doing comics, after I decided to stop doing zines or take my focus off zines and start to do something with a bit more narrative and a bit more kind of heft to it, or a bit more substance to it than just images, my mind went back to this story. And this was the story that became Chill Out, the sort of main story in one, um, where he was at, uh, a chill out and, um, the, the host and someone who was clearly, you know, he had history with, they kind of turned on each other in horrible ways. One of them went into a G-hole and the host was screaming at him and belittling him and undermining him and Creating a scene like a horrible, angry, rude, invasive, hostile scene. And eventually, and just not helping this person in the G-hole. And eventually, this person in the G-hole came round, and the host went into a G-hole. And then this guy who'd come out of the G-hole started berating him. And just the kind of What that disclosed and suggested about this scene, it was so apocalyptic to me. That just seems so horrible. And this idea that they were all brought together for hedonism and thrills and to be men and to be gay men just enjoying their bodies together. And then that's happening, where actually the darkest, grimmest, roots of who they are coming to the surface with absolutely no filter and no attempt to— no empathy, no kindness.

Yeah.

And that was really hair-raising. And he was just like, yeah, that happens sometimes. And I— it was, it was very shocking to me. And he also— a detail that went into the story was, you know, I said, what do you do? And he said, well, no one was helping this, this first guy. So, you know, me and, me and the guy I was having sex with, while everyone else just carried on, blinkered, having their hedonistic sex coupled here and there. He and the guy who was having sex with Gwendoline helped him, gave him some K, gave him some ketamine, and the guy already had perhaps too much G. And I just— well, that's something that I would never do.

Right. Yeah.

I just wouldn't— it wouldn't occur to me that, like, I think I know what this guy needs, right?

More drugs. Yeah, right.

I just thought that was the kind of thing that I— that's the kind of detail I put in the story because It's real. It's the kind of solution that someone might think of that I wouldn't. And I'm always trying to differentiate the characters from myself. I'm not trying to make them moral and kind and good and make the right decisions. And, you know, I also don't want people to dodge the bullet all the time. I think that's— it's not what I want to do. I want the characters to catch a bullet sometimes. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Experience consequences without moralizing, without going, see, this is what happens. But I also think it would be disingenuous to say this never or rarely happens.

That's right. Yeah, I mean, I think if you ask any of us, so for those listening in the US, you've heard me say this, you've heard me make this distinction before, but when Ed says chill out, He just means a party, a group sex party, a chemsex party, a PNP party. They say H&H, high and horny. We say PNP a lot. There's the distinction there. Um, but chill out is just, just a party, right? Um, where we're all getting together for chemsex. The, the stories— I mean, the story you just told about the, the G-hole going back and forth, I mean, any of us probably that have been in it any time, any length of time, can attest That's happened, right? And the fact that no one helps, right? There might be one person sometimes who will step in, but everybody's annoyed because everybody's so horny. You're there to fuck. And then somebody's going crazy, quote unquote crazy, and it's annoying, right? Just like when someone goes into paranoia or psychosis and it's like, ah, again, right?

Yeah.

So you— I mean, the way that you captured it here. So, so you were told that story by a friend, and that is what initiated the entire book, was that you wanted to, to tell that?

Yeah. I mean, this friend, to my knowledge, has actually never, never done tea either. But my— I felt it was— he was creeping closer and closer. He was circling it and getting closer to it. So he was always someone, you know, we've been to lots of parties together, and he never said no to drugs, ever. There was a plate or a book going around with lines on it. Even if he'd just done a big fat line, he wanted another one. And, you know, I once, once was at a party and, well, let's just say a friend. Some people might know who some of these people are.

A friend.

Was, um, his, his friends like propped him up. He was so drug fucked that he couldn't sit up to do a line. So his friends like propped him up, someone held the plate under him, someone held the straw. And I was like, oh, you know, it'll still be there in 10 minutes or half an hour or whatever. Like, maybe, maybe wait. And I didn't want to be like, yeah, you know, a busybody old lady going, oh, stop doing drugs. I was just like, I think he's had enough at the moment.

Yeah. Right.

And that was— I remember that being a bit, yeah, I guess that's gonna go into a comic at some point, 'cause I just felt like, really, I'm the only one here who's going, he's good for now.

Yeah.

He's stabilized. Yeah, so my fear for this friend, my anxiety about where he might be headed or where things might work out for him, was what led to the genesis of the book.

Okay.

And it's not— yeah. Like, I've exaggerated things, I've added details. I mean, you know, I've got friends who do sex work or have done sex work, but in Volume 2, he turns it down. The character turns down the opportunity to make some money, whereas I know friends who'd be like, yeah, sure, you know, you are disgusting to me, but you have money.

Right.

This is the time and the place to do it.

Right.

So, yeah, I— Like I said, differentiating from myself and then also, you know, creating more dramatically interesting situations. So it's drawn from life, but I'm definitely not trying to completely write anybody's life story or anything.

It's just uncanny to me, though, that this isn't from your personal experience because You say that you've exaggerated, but I saw nothing. I saw not one thing exaggerated based on my experience, my personal experience. Not one. I mean, except the only thing I would say exaggerated is a lot more hard dicks than we ever saw in—

you know? I mean, you've spotted a mistake there because in Volume 1, I didn't really know. I didn't really think about that so much. And I tried to show it more in Volume 2. But yeah, there was— I made some mistakes. I also made a mistake with the kind of lighter that I drew. I just drew an ordinary Bic lighter.

Yeah.

And so I did, like, I got— I consulted with people, I got them to read through it, and one person was like, well, you know, obviously you'd never use that lighter. And I said, why? And he explained, you know, the kind of lighters he used. And then he also pointed out the hard dicks. That's something I'm gonna be writing about more. Yeah, I didn't— I didn't know when I wrote the first one. It's quite, quite typical to be impotent or unable to sustain an erection with men after a while, especially, or if you're not young.

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, that's common. But, but even down— I was telling you before we recorded, even down to the Grindr profiles that you make, right? I mean, it's just, it's exactly, it's exactly what I'm just shocked that you did. What a powerful storyteller you are to put those differences, everything in, the differences in. So I will say too, to the listeners, I would put a double kind of trigger warning on if you do order the books, they could be triggering for you because, you know, this ain't a This ain't a kid's book. I mean, it's lots of— it shows everything and it shows the drug use and all that kind of stuff. So I would be very cautious about where you are in your recovery before you read them. I even— I mean, I was sexually aroused by it. I was surprised because I'm not in— I'm usually not because there's a lot of people into animated stuff. Or AI or whatever. Um, but you know, it's actually arousing, but luckily I wasn't really triggered by it. And I noticed there wasn't a lot of needles referred to in there either. So, which is my own personal— um, so anyway, okay, so you, you heard that story, you wanted— you, in care of your friend and where he was going, you started to write these stories. It's almost like, in a way, Chemsex fan fiction in a sort of a way. You talked about fan fiction, but not a fan of it, but obviously, but it's almost like that, right?

So I have to say, for someone who hasn't done it, I am weirdly fixated on it. Yeah, because I'm always talking about it. Now I do the volunteering, you know, it's like 2 hours a week of my time to volunteer with Controlling Chemsex. And then when I'm not doing that, and sometimes During the meeting, I'm like inking a comic, and it's really all I want to write about at the moment. And, um, it does— it probably does seem to an outsider like, if you— Ed, if this is something you haven't done and you're interested in, why are you so obsessed with it?

Yeah.

I mean, though, like I said, so I had that one friend— that's just one of many friends, um, who have experienced it. And as I said, I found out even more friends were involved after I published. I mean, I'm completely immersed in it. You know, you're saying the Grindr profiles are very familiar and accurate. Obviously, I've been on Grindr and I've seen this. I've seen the kind of ways that people disguise things and the way they hint at things. And we're completely immersed in it. It's all around us. It's happening now.

That's right.

And I remind people of that when I'm constantly talking about it. I was at a party yesterday, and it was, it was all straight people, I think one, one bisexual person and me. And that's what I just ended up talking about that with everybody.

Yeah.

Trying to convince them to volunteer for controlling fem sex and everything.

Yeah.

So true. It takes up a lot of my attention and my imagination. I mean, so You know, as, as the founder of Controlling Chemsex, Ignacio, has been saying, it's probably the biggest healthcare crisis to hit the LGBT community since AIDS. It's massive. It's— what it has in common with that is the silence around it as well.

That's right.

It's shrouded in stigma. And, and silence equals death. We have to talk about it. There are lots of plays on— there's a play called Jock Night on, um, it's about to start in Manchester, I think, and I saw it when it was in London, and that's really good. Um, but it's a play, you know, that's like, it can't really reach all of America and Australia. And, um, uh, I mean, Controlling Chemsex, we're getting clients from, um, India and, um, Asia. Um, and a play can't have the same reach. as something like printed media. And also, you know, film is expensive, and you have to keep all the people funding it happy, and you have to try and reach a broad audience. And there's other media that I could try, but I have always loved to draw. That made the most sense to me. I've always written as well. And this is something that comics as a format It's— people see it as very lowbrow. It's very kind of easy to access. I mean, if you don't like the drawings, I find it quite difficult to read anything if I don't like the drawings.

Mm-hmm.

I can tell at a glance whether I'm going to be able to get through a comic, usually. Sometimes they, you know, they're really worth sticking with, even if you don't immediately take to the graphics. But, um, yeah, writing comics, It seems like a very good way to raise awareness and to reach people.

Yes.

Who might not go and see a play. I mean, that— so when I went to see this play, Jock Night, I think it was £40 for a ticket, and it was a small play. Well worth that money, and I'm really glad that all of the performers are getting paid. But can a general audience necessarily— will they fork out for something like a play? Will they have £10 or $12, um, for a comic book. Yeah, or they can, you know, stand there in the store and read it. So, um, or they can get it from a library. It's also available in libraries. Or they can go to the Tom of Finland house and read a copy in the library there, um, if you're in LA. So yeah, there's other people, uh, writing about chemsex and talking about it. And this seems like a really good medium to do it, to really connect with people. And that's accessible. As fantastic as live theater is, it's not necessarily accessible to a broad range of people. Maybe it's a bit more middle class, a bit more upper class, and it can be expensive.

Yeah, you're right about the silence around this. That's the commonality between this and the AIDS crisis. Any way we can get the conversation going out there, just awareness. Like you're talking about being at a party with straight people. So many of the population doesn't understand what's going on around them at all times.

A lot of gay people don't understand.

Yeah. I'm kind of shocked by the comments I get sometimes from gay men who say, what are you talking about? You're exaggerating. About this. Even a guy in LA, he was like, "I live in LA. I don't know anyone who does chemsex." Like what? So yeah, I mean there's still this this. He does.

He does know people who do chemsex.

Yes, he does. That's right.

He knows people who've done it in the past, and he knows people are going to do it in the future.

That's right. That's right. So right. So why not? Why not get the story out in a in an accessible way, but also a fun way? I mean, if somebody, you know, if you have a family member even, because, you know, a lot of what I do are for family members who are totally, totally confused about what is this, right? Because the only thing we know about meth is the trailer park, missing teeth, white trash. You know, we don't— that's all we know about meth. We don't know about chemsex or methadone, right? But if you can hand this to someone, a family member, and say, this is what it is.

Right.

And I would feel very comfortable saying, yes, this is exactly— this book that I'm holding in my hand, this comic book, this is exactly what goes on. And this is exactly what your loved one is facing. And you even go into some of the dangers, the different personalities that you come across, the different reasons why. And poor Stu really goes through it in the second one. The whole story of what happens to him. I just think that it's not glorifying the use. It's really telling in a very raw way what is going on around you at all times and the current state of our community. And I also think one of the problems that we have is that we're not informing the younger guys of what they're getting into. Like, even now, you know, because we have this sex-positive whatever, whatever, and we don't want to— we don't want to tell somebody not to. Like you said, you don't want to be that— you don't want to be the old mom at the party saying, I think he's had enough, you know. But the same thing goes with some of these young guys, is you don't want to say, well, don't do that. But if, if I could give this to young men and look at it, I don't think— I think they'd have a very clear picture about what they're getting into when they're handed a pipe for the first time, because most of the time they don't have an idea. Yeah.

I mean, I was— well, I always say lucky, but I have to give myself some credit as well. So when we got the internet, you know, this is how old I am. The internet was something that arrived when I was in my mid- to late teens. I think I was 17 when we got the internet at home, and, um, I immediately went looking for gay stuff. And I was always very, um, interested in the sort of darker side of things, and I always wanted to see what I'm not supposed to see.

Yeah. Yeah.

This sense that things were being gatekept from me, and I, um, you know, there were things I wasn't supposed to look at. So I was like, right, let's find that first. And there was a I think the way I found it, there was a magazine called Bizarre Magazine that I used to get from, um, from the, the corner store. And, um, and I think they listed this website in it of like all the gross, weird stuff you could see on the internet. And it was called rotten.com. And it was a really good website where they would have things like morgue photos and they would have—

Oh yeah.

Uh, information about horrible sort of accidents and, um, Genocides and all of the stuff, you know, that's too gruesome and too, uh, mind-shatteringly awful for polite conversation or for young people to know. And the kind of things that, you know, we either sweep under the rug or we have to, like, to get through the day, we have to not think about those kind of things. And I was like, yeah, show me that. I want to see that. So I go on this site, and one of the things that it, um, it had images of and descriptions of was meth and meth mouth. And, um, that, you know, seeing that at 17, that was my first point of contact with meth, was seeing the consequences of it and reading some description about it. You know, it was quite narrow, it was quite simplistic. It was, it was, it was a lot like the photos you can get on a cigarette packet of just like, you know, don't do this because that— It was that simple. But that was my, that was my first contact. Whereas for so many people, their first contact with meth, maybe at the same age, is someone says, oh, if you like weed, well, we could, you could try this as well. I got some of this. Or, you know, it's something, it's something where it's presented to them as just an alternative or an option, rather than, you know, this could be the worst decision you ever make in your life. And I wish I hadn't done it. Do you want to do it?

Yeah.

Or here's a here's a panoply of images for you to peruse. Do you want all of this to happen to you? Here's how that can happen. So that my, my kind of thirst for forbidden knowledge, um, kind of protected me there, uh, because that was my first point of contact with meth. And I want to be able to provide people with some information that is not dry and kind of finger wagging and do this, but they can read through and, and it's kind of vicariously experience the kind of things that might happen. And then they have a mental model of where things could go and what kind of paths are available to them. And it might be quite difficult to come back from if they, if they do this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the subtle things, the subtle hints that you have, they're not even hints, but Like the guy who was supposed to— he thought he was supposed to be at work that day, but it had been like a week passed and he didn't know. Right. But what? I thought it was Friday, but it was like, you know, Thursday or something like that. The comments about, you know, your dick is raw. You know, there's a guy telling the other guy, I think your dick is raw or something on his dick or something like that. I mean, there's so many things that you add in there that does explain kind of, you know, this is, this is what it is. It's not just coming together for an orgy. This is, you know, it goes way beyond all of that. Um, it— so I do think it does a good job of portraying kind of what you're getting into. Um, but like you said, maybe in Volume 3 there'll be more limp dicks rolling around, everybody trying so hard to get hard. You know, that's, you know, that's the typical thing that happens typically, right? I, I just find it so fascinating The similarities between the chemsex scene in Britain, in the UK, Australia, everywhere, and the US. It is based— I mean, this could have been— you could have written this anywhere in the US, and there's no difference. There is no difference in the scene. I'm sure you've heard that too, right? So you go to— you have friends in LA, and you have— I think you've got to remember you traveling to LA. I'm sure you've heard that it's the same here, right?

Yeah, I had a client in LA as well, um, before I went there, um, recently. Um, yeah, uh, I mean, when I first joined Control and Chemsex, we did— I remember we had a discussion about how in the States it's much more of a heterosexual kind of drug generally.

Is that—

would you say that's true, or is that just a misperception? Well, I would, I would say for straight people here not really doing meth, I don't think It doesn't have the same— you talked about this sort of trailer park kind of reputation, and I don't think we really have an equivalent with meth here. I don't think it's perceived that way.

Yeah, there's a lot more straight people doing it. I mean, maybe even more straight— if you look at the whole gamut of meth being used, it, you know, I don't know the numbers, but because I'm not— I would say there's probably more straight people using it. than gays, I guess. But the way that they use it is so different, right? Like, when I have straight men contact me, they might do— they might have a sex bender, but it's not that often. But when they do, it's with one person, right?

Right.

And they don't have Grindr. Like, you had— you show in the parties the guys while they're having— while they're fucking, they have Grindr in their face. Scrolling, right? Like if you're the bottom, you're looking at.

Yeah, I thought I was making that up. I thought that was an exaggeration. I thought I was satirizing. I thought I was being clever. I was like, oh, people love it. And then people point and go, no, that that happens. That's what it's like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wasn't. I was trying. I was trying to enjoy.

Yeah, it's so hard to let your phone go for most, for most. But you know, the straight straight population doesn't have that. And then you have you know the rural straight. people who are doing it. There's a lot of guys and women doing it for energy, using it to build their business or to keep up their home. I mean, you know, so it's used in a diversified way too. But in terms of the chemsex scene here within the LGBTQ community, what you're describing is the same. I would say there is Here, we have what's now called SuperMyth, which is coming out of the cartel labs.

That's a good— yeah.

And so, we're seeing a huge spike in psychosis. And usually, for most people, psychosis will come later or after you've been up for a while. But, what we're seeing is psychosis is stimulated much sooner and more permanent. than it has been in the past because of the purity of what we're using, the potency of it. So there are some differences there. I think in your comics, there would be probably more paranoia, you know, like, are there, you know, looking out the windows, covering up the smoke detectors in case there's microphones, things like that would be probably more, you know, a little more close to what we experience too.

I'm writing a story that's about paranoia, and it's set in the Tina Triangle. I don't know if you ever heard of that.

Yeah.

You know, yeah, there's 3— for those who don't, there's 3 tube stations in London that kind of form a triangle in south— in the south of London, south of the river, and anecdotally where a lot of the meth action happens. And I— so I set a story there, and it's kind of about someone who's been Awake for a long time. Yeah, in the day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that that honestly does happen more here in the US with the meth here than I hear from any of my UK clients. Um, you know, it's— it is more prevalent in the, in the States for sure. Um, one thing that I, I would say to you listening is one thing that really helped me early in my recovery was Discovering other stories like mine because it is so silenced. You have men on social media scared to admit it, won't talk about it. For one thing, they have jobs at stake if there's a stigma around it, right? I found Dr. David Fawcett's podcast. This was back in when I first stopped, so back 2018. And then he started telling some anecdotal stories of other men going through the same thing. And I was like, oh, this isn't just just me. Like, there's other, there's other men out there like me, you know. And then I discovered more, of course. But there is, there is such healing anytime that I tell a, a story, like a raw, unfiltered story from my life on social media. I just get this onslaught of messages and comments saying, thank you so much for saying that. Like, you know, like when I— There was one that I talked about digging through the trash for Walmart receipts. So I would go get the receipt, get the merchandise off the shelf, and return it for money or a gift card.

You had a video the other day, or I saw the other day, that was incredible. I hope you're okay talking about it because—

Oh, yeah.

It was like you introduced somebody to meth. You wrote bad checks on your daughter's account. You rushed your kids to bed to host an orgy. You just listed off these things. I was like, this is a John Waters film. It's like a John Waters character. It's so amazing. And it is kind of to have to be able to then tell a story from a position of, you know, it being in the past, to mention it and for it to be mentionable and therefore manageable and to be able to, like, laugh at it is so powerful to be in such a different place. And it is kind of entertaining the kind of stuff that people will do in this extreme state. They'll do extreme things. That is kind of crazy that you did all that. I'm so glad you're in a much better place.

Yeah.

We can't let these stories slip through our fingers. This is gold.

That's right.

Not, you know, not to celebrate that kind of behavior.

That's right.

You know, that's fierce, iconic diva behavior.

Yeah. That's funny.

That's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. Because thank you for saying that. Because it does get mixed messages, right? Like, there's some, like, old school Marm in the recovery world who will come back and say, why are you doing, you know, why are you glorifying what you did. That's a war story. You're not supposed to tell war stories or whatever. And you're just giving people permission to blah, blah, blah. It's not that, though. And I also get told that I'm not showing enough remorse.

Right.

That I am not displaying their version of what I— I'm not showing the process that they think I should be going through. Um, in terms of I should be still weeping and crying about it. And, and no, I want to show what's possible, like you said, in terms of if you lean into it and you process through that and you forgive yourself and you make amends with— I had to, you know, make a lot of amends with my kids, um, and other people too. I mean, when you go through that process, you come out on the other end and you don't, you don't feel the remorse anymore. But I just have these men, they, they message me and they're just like, you will never believe I did. You know, I just cannot ever admit to what I did. And then when they mention what they did, I'm like, that was a Tuesday for me. Like, what are you talking about? Right? Because— but so in, in saying that out loud on social media, it does give them the— it sets a lot of people free from the guilt and keeping it inside. And I think what you're doing here is the same, right? And like you said, you, you're telling their story In a way that you're like, yeah, that's that's right. That that sets me free. I don't have to feel guilty about that anymore. I don't have to keep it to myself. I don't I don't have to be you know in and a lot of a lot of guys still have nightmares over it over chill outs or party situations like the like the G the G hole right remember the guy saying it's G o'clock in your in your comic book that was the first time I heard G o'clock but but yet I mean you know going seeing people go through G holes or going through one. Or, or all that other stuff. I mean, those things can cause PTSD and nightmares. And so seeing it like you're presenting it could be very healing for a lot of people.

Yeah. And that's it. In telling your own story or telling stories, you're giving people permission to tell their own and to therefore process it and see it as a story and restructure it and reframe it as something that happened that can be spoken of. And that in speaking about it, it is helpful for other people and can help Can help them avoid getting there and can help them process and, and get a— get out of it. So it is massive. I find in my, in my life drawing work, um, I run a life drawing group every week, and I sometimes forget how much people really need to be given permission to draw.

Mm-hmm.

And they need to be given permission to tell their stories. They have— they already have it, you know. They don't— no one's gatekeeping it. No one's sort of No one should need to tell them like, oh yeah, you can chime in. And also another thing that we— a lie that we tell ourselves is that my story is not interesting.

That's right.

Or my story is not valid. You know, no one would be interested in mine, or mine's not different enough from existing stories to matter. It does matter. It's your story. And yeah, I think it's very incredibly powerful and can be transformative. To tell it. And in telling it, you have the opportunity to write the next chapter. You have the opportunity— it's not finished, you know, it's not over till the fat lady sings. Um, and so it's important to begin telling it somewhere and see how much detail you're ready to, to add now and see how it makes you feel to tell it. Who you tell it to or how you tell it, you know, that's something to find out. But a therapist is a good one.

Yeah.

To start with. And like I said, I have clients who are not— they're completely leaving out this side of their life. They're telling their therapist about their upbringing, their childhood, their partner, their workplace, absolutely everything except the fact that every few weeks, they're going and having this drug-fueled sex and their boundaries are not being respected. And maybe they're not respecting other people's boundaries. And they are ill for a week afterwards. And like, it's quite A lot. You're missing out, you're glossing over.

Yeah, yeah, you know, right? Yeah. And why you keep going back, right?

Yeah.

I mean, the therapist can help you peel that back, right? Why you keep doing this?

Analyze it, understand it, understand the story that you're telling. Because again, like, storytelling techniques really help you break down and understand your own life. So in writing these stories, like, I then was able to apply these things. Like, um, in every story, pretty much every story— if you can find one that doesn't have these beats in it, then, you know, well done. Um, but most stories have, uh, a section of it, or, or these story beats of, um, orphan, wanderer, warrior, martyr.

Mm-hmm.

So, in the beginning of the story, usually in the beginning, and they're usually in that order, but of course, it can be mixed up. But most stories that exist that you've ever heard and stories that you tell yourself go through this process. And so, in the beginning of the story, maybe in a Pixar story, I always go with those 'cause everybody knows them and they're sort of, you know, and they're often quite simple. You know, usually in the beginning of a Pixar story, someone falls over and by doing so, it changes everything.

Mm-hmm.

Kids' motor neuron skills, their motor skills are still developing. So that's very relatable to them. And the idea of disaster being around the corner is very relatable to them. So someone thought it would be a literal orphaning, like in the beginning of Finding Nemo. He's literally orphaned.

Yeah.

And then his father becomes the main character when he's orphaned because his kid is kidnapped and taken to Australia. And so then there's wandering, there's searching for the missing kid.

Fish.

And then, uh, the warrior part— there has to be some kind of conflict in, in a story somewhere, really, for it to be a good story, for it to be a story. Um, so there's usually someone standing up to something or some kind of, um, you know, fight, uh, whether it's just a disagreement or it's a physical fight. And then, um, a martyr— something, something has to die, whether that's the old order Whether it's your lifestyle, whether it's your ego has to die, something has to change very radically. Something has to be martyred, has to die for the cause, for some kind of betterment, for something better to take place. And to start thinking, well, how does that apply in my own life, can really help you reframe things and really help you see that you're on a path.

Mm-hmm.

And the story's not finished. I remember in my 30s, I kind of thought it was all over. I thought I'd like missed the boat. That was a phrase I kept using. I'd like, you know, I'd dropped off, I'd like failed, you know, because the business I was doing, I was working as an artist in a different medium. And the economy caught up to Clubland. I was working in clubs. And there was no money to pay me for what I was doing. So I was like, well, I'm a failure. I've failed. You know, I was not really looking at the fact that, like, very few people were making any money doing what I was doing.

Right.

And I had been making— I'd been paying rent with it. So I'd been doing okay. But all I could see was that now I failed and it's all over. And I'm, you know, too old to start again, and I'm not young anymore. And I had all my chances and I've blown them all. So stuff like that, I do try to— translate that. And I do try to empathize with my characters that might feel like that, and, and people that I'm supporting in controlling chemsex. You can tell yourself this story, that you're at the end of the story, that it's finished, it's over. Or you can tell yourself the truth, which is that the story is not finished. But maybe there's been this, these 4 story beats, and it's time to begin a new story. It doesn't mean that your life story is over. It doesn't mean that you You know, whatever you've experienced, you've survived it. If you want to tell the story, you have survived it and you can start a new story or improve the one that you're living. Wow.

I love it. I really like this template, you know, for us, like orphan, wanderer, warrior, martyr, in that order, right? You know, because if you think about an orphan, you're orphaned. in the beginning of chemsex, probably because you, you lose your friends, you lose your family, you lose yourself, right? And then you wander around, and then you have to be a warrior in recovery, and then something has to die, which is your past, right?

Yeah.

And you can start that over, start that over in recovery, right? You're orphaned because you now— you have— don't have that part of you anymore, the chemsex part. Could be one way to look at it. Um, I love— yeah, so I mean, if you are listening and you really want to tell your story What a great template that Ed has given you. What great archetypes for you to think about and how that applies to your life and how you can see yourself in those positions, if position is the right— you call it a beat. But in those archetypes, how have you gone through them? Where are you in that process? And then how can your story continue?

What a great There's another thing I learned from studying storytelling as well, which I think does apply to your life. And is it just another way maybe to reframe how you're living your life, which is that in any film or novel that you've read, all of the characters are reflecting a facet of the main character.

Mm-hmm.

So the villain is the worst version of you. aspects, or the thing that the main character, the protagonist, fears being, perhaps doesn't want to turn into. You know, like in Star Wars, the villain, the antagonist, turns out to actually literally be his father and is everything he doesn't want to be. Yeah, that's right. But he's offered, do you want to? You know, you can join me, you can be like this. So it's, you know, in that story laid very clear And then, you know, the slutty best friend or whatever is the— reflect the sexuality of the main character. So much work is done in stories to make sure the main character is likable and relatable. I try to, like, I try to push against that a bit in my stories because I always love— I love films and books and things where the characters are quite hard to like and they feel much more real.

Mm-hmm.

They don't feel sanitized. Um, but that's something, you know, when you think of your own life, when you think, how does everybody in my life reflect—

Yeah.

—who I am? Reflect us— I mean, not in a solipsistic way of like, you know, I'm, I'm the only real person, everyone else is a sort of a reflection. But what, what are they reflecting in you? What do they represent in your life? Um, that can be really helpful, I think, and constructive in thinking where you want your story to go next and Who should stay and who should sashay away in your life.

Yeah, great. I love that. Yeah, very good. Very good. Well, earlier you said, what is this comic book? What is this graphic novel? What is this project saying about me? You said, and you didn't know what it was saying about you until volume 2. So what is it saying about you?

I don't— I'm not going to be too open about exactly what it means. I mean, it's— I think it's a mistake to explain your work too much. I mean, everyone who reads it, it's going to mean something to them. That's what you hope. And people do bring a lot to the work. People have said things like, oh, it's so sad because Stu's just looking for love.

Right.

Okay. A straight person said that, I think. I was like, oh, sure. Yeah, we all are. That's what gays are really— that's what we're all about. We don't want a mouthful of cum. We just want love.

Right.

Okay. But that was a completely fair and valid interpretation of it.

Great.

The character who— the person in my life who inspired that character actually is very much very romantic and very sort of falls very easily people. So that was fair, but I kind of thought, like, that's not what I wrote.

Yeah.

So people will bring their own, uh, perspective on things, and it's so interesting for me. It's so eye-opening, and I learn how to be a better writer from it. What this story— the penny that dropped when I was inking volume 2 was that this, of course, is a product of my own trauma. Like, my, my own trauma is kind of writ large in there, um, in ways that it became just really clear to me. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure a psychoanalyst could point that out quickly. Um, and that put me off, I think, writing stuff for a long time. Or maybe not put me off, but intimidated me of like, what does this say about me? Like, what does it say about who I am?

Yeah.

And I think just as I've eased into my 40s, I'm now 43, you just stop giving a fuck. And you're like, well, that's who I am.

Yeah.

And everybody's something. We all have issues. I think that's another thing that therapy helped me with, of, like, feeling like it was a dark secret to have baggage or to have trauma unresolved and trauma that was being resolved and, you know, intrusive thoughts and to ruminate and things like that. I thought this was this shameful thing that no one must know. Like, no, it's like, That's all normal. Like, you wouldn't be a human being if you didn't have that. Um, so that's, I guess, all I can tell you is that my, my own traumatic, uh, roots, my own backstory is suggested in there.

I see.

By some of the action, but not, um, not the sexual side of it and not the drug side of it. It's something else, more about There you go. That's more than anyone's got out of me. So—

Now I'm going to reread and try to figure this out.

I had to read it hundreds of times before I figured it out.

Yeah.

Tell me what you come up with.

Okay, I will. What do you want someone who reads these— well, actually, someone who looks at any of your work? Because I saw cards, like your greeting cards, I guess, right? There was one with the—

Postcards.

Yeah, postcards. Um, you sent me this one. I'm holding it up in the camera if you're watching. Very— just, just very well done. Um, there's some with buttholes on them, anuses and stuff like that. So what do you want someone to leave your work feeling like? What impressions do you want us to get from From what you produce?

From the graphic novels? The comics?

Yeah, let's go there specifically. Like, once I read these, what do you want the impression to be? What do you want me to leave with?

Ideally, the way that I write is so that people are thinking about it. If you just give people all the conclusions, then they're not really required to think about it.

Right.

And if you show people behaving badly, and if you show an ending to the story that doesn't necessarily conclude it, doesn't wrap everything up neatly. People have to think about it. They have to think like, did that character do the right thing? Would I have done that in that situation? Was he a victim? Was— did he, you know, bring that on himself? You know, I want there to be some kind of debate in people, and I want them— I want it to stay with them in that way. I want them to really have to pick over what they just saw, what they just read. Um, and ideally I'd like them to read at least twice. With a comic or graphic novel, I do this as well. The first time you read it, you sometimes you just jump from speech bubble to speech bubble.

Yeah.

And you just skim through the text.

Yeah.

And that can be because it's a very propulsive narrative and you're really drawn in, but it can just kind of be a habit of just thinking that the The text is where the meat, the substance is, and the drawings are just illustrating what you're already reading. I definitely find that on my second reading, I take much more time looking at each panel, and sometimes you see there's a whole other narrative going on, or what you had assumed from reading the text, actually you can assemble a different narrative when you really include the details. And there are details in there that I hope definitely add inflections to the story. There's things like in volume 2, when he's on the comedown, I really wanted people to experience something like a comedown for that section. And that's where he's thinking such dark thoughts that, like, it's over. He's like—

Yeah.

totally fucked up everything irreparably, and there's no going back, and there's no point. And, you know, just to feel so kind of hollowed out, and, um, to kind of be obsessed and fixated on the idea of having totally failed, totally fucked up, and to be irredeemable. I really wanted that. I really wanted people to feel that. So there's details in the background, like, um, there's a violinist with a broken arm, which is just something I saw in—

Mm-hmm.

A video, and I was looking for crowd scenes, and I, you know, people post all kinds of things to YouTube, and someone had just walked through London with a camera. And when I paused, I just saw this violinist with her arm in a cast. What's that? What's her story?

Yeah.

What's happening to her now?

Yeah.

Is she taking it to, like, sell it or something? Is she giving it away? Or is she gonna be fine? Maybe she's had an operation to maintain— maybe it's not the arm she plays with, you know? So maybe it'll be fine. But it was kind of like, oh, my God, that person. I was gonna do something more overt as well. I was gonna have a child crying over a dropped ice cream, and then I realized, like, you probably wouldn't have that on a rainy, cold day in London. So I had to find other ways to show that. And I also wanted to tie it in with how the city and the world is changing. So there's, like, adverts for luxury flats in the background, and people have defaced them. There's an old couple one is pushing the other in a wheelchair. And I wanted this— I just wanted it to be kind of that, to be a kind of enigmatic image that might mean different things to different people, because it's beautiful that they're together late in life and they have each other. But some people also might see that as very sad, might find it depressing to see, you know, that we all deteriorate. But there's an incredible film called Amour by Michael Haneke. He's my— my favorite director, and he's a writer-director as well. And one of his films is about a couple at the end of their lives, and one is looking after the other one because that's what happily ever after has to look like, right?

Yeah.

If you're together at the end of your lives, one of you is gonna go before the other. Maybe you both die in your sleep side by side, and it will all be perfect and peaceful. But more likely, one of you is gonna be deteriorating at a faster rate than the other, so the other one is put into a role of a carer. And this film is so powerful and has been very influential on me because that just sounds like a tragedy. It just sounds like it's going to be a miserable experience and it's going to leave you crying your eyes out. And when I watched that film, it takes you on this emotional journey where there's tension, there's drama, there's a lot of uncertainty, and there's so much love and empathy in it. And you get to the end of the film, and you— I was sort of in this suspended state, and I didn't know what to feel. And I found myself going through scene by scene, and I can remember so much of that film, and I just watched it the once. I don't know. I don't know when I'll watch it again. I will. You know, I love his films. So that's the kind of thing I want to do in my stories, for even though it could very easily be just a sort of tragic, narrative that just sort of charges downhill, um, and leaves the reader weeping. I want there to be more to it, and I want you to have to digest it slowly. Um, yeah, I want it to, to not be easily consumable. I want it to kind of stick in your throat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you have to, yeah, come to your own conclusions and have to— and maybe you can't as well. Maybe it's something that you can't resolve in your mind of how how you really feel about it. Um, but yeah, I, um, I, I always want to use imagery and text combined so that you are— there are little things that you notice that might make you feel different things, and the overall effect leaves you with a lot to think about, and you remember it, and you, you know, might want to recommend it to other people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. That really helps. me understand how better to digest it. And I think anyone listening better— how better to digest art, period, right? Any type of art. We're just all in this hurry and this instant gratification type society we're in. We just want to get through stuff, right? Like flip through the comic book or the movie or whatever. But to really look at it that way through that lens, I think that's—

Yeah.

That's, that's so nice. I love the way that you put that. That's really helped me.

Sorry.

No, go ahead.

I find it really hard to excerpt bits of the comic. You know, I'm sometimes asked— there's an exhibition happening in Vienna next month, and they asked me for some excerpts of the comic to show. And also I showed some here in London while I was in LA. Some pages from the comic were shown, and I find it so difficult to present things out of context because it might just be triggering. It might just look— if you just look at a, you know, if you just take a small excerpt, you might think that this is a story where people just take drugs and it's great.

Right, exactly.

I've constructed it so that you really do need to see the whole thing to, you know, to Really know what it is, so I do find that very hard. And in terms of digesting as well, I wanted to say that this tradition we have for baking a coin into a Christmas pudding—you do that in the States as well?

I've never heard of it. They might be done here, but not not in my country and not in my part of the world.

Okay. Well, in the in the UK, there's a tradition of baking a sixpence or you know some money into a. into the Christmas pudding.

Okay.

And the purpose of that is so that you eat it slowly, because this is a pudding into which— it would be a very expensive dish. There's a lot of, like, vine fruits and dried fruit and nuts baked into this thing. So traditionally, it would be a very expensive dessert, but because it's very sweet and you just get a, you know, you get a slice amongst a whole family, maybe you just wolf it down. So this promise of, like, you might break your teeth on this thing.

Right.

You know, so you have to work for the reward.

Yeah.

That's the kind of thing I want to have in my work. You know, something to break your teeth on.

Yeah. I love that. I love it. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Wow. It's a lot. Yeah. I just think also I was kind of half expecting a happy ending, you know, like, as you read it, like, oh, he comes to his senses, he goes to rehab. I don't know. You know, something like that. And it isn't.

Right.

It's totally left up to your interpretation in terms of, you know, happy or sad, I guess. But it's not the typical what I think people would want, right, out of a story. And I myself really like that because I do— I'm a big fan of movies without happy endings, you know, movies with real endings, you know. Like one of my favorite romances is— these go way back and show my age too, but Bridges of Madison County.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, where they don't end up together. Right? She decides to stay with her husband. And that, to me, was like, this is a real ending. Like, you know, this isn't the story of, you know, they run off together and they're happily ever after. This was a true ending. And then she kept it to herself her whole life, you know? And I just— so I really resonated with the way that you ended Volume 2. As well. We're both vibes. So, um, yeah.

There's also in— I don't want to make a spoiler, but in one of the stories, at some point, someone possibly gets an HIV diagnosis. And I, yeah, didn't want that to seem like an ending because it isn't. But that's another thing that can feel to people like it's all over. Yeah. And just absolutely not, you know, it's this completely manageable thing. Again, that's another thing that I have not experienced. I think people assume, again, that's part of my story. I, you know, I have so many friends who are HIV positive, and they keep going. They're happy, they're healthy.

Yeah.

So, but when you get the news, that's never a good feeling. So that was something that I put in one of the stories again, because it was emotionally powerful. But if you, if you know people with HIV, you know, that's not, you know, that's not an ending. It's not a death sentence. Right. You know, a punishment or something. It doesn't have to be terrible at all. It can just be like, okay, well, now I'm dealing with that as well. Right.

And this is new information for me. And that's it, right? This is new information for me in my life. And I'll make it, I'll make adaptations. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, Ed, what have I missed? What have I— what do you think I should have asked you that I didn't? Or what information did we not put in the podcast that you wish had been?

Well, I had some questions for you.

Oh, wow. Okay.

There's some things I've been thinking of that would be interesting to discuss with people. So I don't know. I don't know if you're— I don't know if your listeners and viewers would be interested. What do you think of this idea of this, of a proposal? What do you think of the idea of a new stripe being added to the progress flag for people in recovery?

I, I, I like that idea. The first thing, the first thing that comes to mind Is, um, it's less in— it's less where you are. There's more of this here in terms of we have a— there's a lot of people who are projecting their definition of recovery onto others, right?

Mm-hmm.

So in terms of if I am meth-free but I still drink alcohol, I'm not allowed to say I'm in recovery according to some.

Okay.

Right. This is a— it's an— to me is an older type philosophy that I hope in time goes away more and more. But the only thing that comes to my mind is how do I identify with that stripe, right? Which to me is if you're in recovery, you're in recovery. You get to decide, right? Just because— right? But no, I like that idea. Quite a bit because there's so much camaraderie, right? And there's so much identification with each other when you say, I'm in recovery. Oh, you are too, right? Like, there's this instant bond. So I think having that would be another way to bring us together.

Yeah, I mean, it's a question I thought was appropriate to this because it's about— it's an image and flags do tell a story. That's right. You know, kind of a shorthand way of signifying a group and a story and the shared story. Yeah, I just—

I also think, you know, I also think that's a, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, that would be a very interesting, I think, powerful way to bring all the recovery routes together. Like, you know, we have Dharma recovery, we have Refuge recovery, SMART recovery, we have All kinds of different routes to recovery, plus the 12, you know, of course, the 12 steps or your own. But I do think, you know, something like that could bring every— that could be something that brought us all together into one if we had a stripe like that, a signal, an integrated symbol of what at our core, who we all are, no matter what route you're taking. So, yeah.

Yeah. And it's a significant You know, amount of people in the LGBT community. There's a lot. There's a lot of abuse going on.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, sure. I mean, the roundup that there's 12 Steps have a roundup, you know, where it's a conference, you know, they're just having it now, I think, in Florida. And I went last year. It was like 600 gay men. Yeah. Well, queer people, I guess you could say. But 600 of us together in recovery. And there were some people that were in other— I think it was a very small percentage, but in other programs. But yeah, something like that could be— yeah, that could really, hopefully bring us all together and drop our differences. You know, it's kind of like, it's almost like churches, denominations of churches, we know what brings them all together, the symbol of the cross. At the end of the day, right? Hopefully, hopefully a Presbyterian can, you know, drop their differences with a Catholic or whatever because the cross actually binds them all together. So something like that, I think, would be very nice. Yeah, very impactful.

What color do you think it should be?

What color is available now?

Yeah, it might have to be— maybe it should be a cross. Maybe we should put a Put a crucifix on. They love that.

Yeah, that would go really well. Go over really well.

I have another question I thought of as well. Um, I mean, you know, you maybe you want to edit these out because they're not on topic. So in the— but I don't know, they're both kind of storytelling-related questions. And, um, so the second thing I wanted to ask was, so in, in controlling chemsex, in the key working, One of the things we do is cravings management. And we talk through this is the, you know, what we talk with them, we ask them what kind of cravings do you experience? Where do you feel it in your body? Like what kind of things trigger you? And we talk about cravings management as in how can you break that chain of events so that you don't, that you're not using, you have the craving, and then you have the action eventually. And how do you break that? And we have various things, you know, Opening a window, going for a walk, having a shower, listening to music or calling someone, whatever it is. Just like break concept. And one of the things that we suggest is that you have an emergency jerk. You know, you jerk off. And I'm interested in what can we call that? I mean, that's what I've been calling it. The emergency wank is why there's a British emergency wank, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm. I'm— I don't know if maybe people, your viewers, would have a great idea for what to call that, you know, masturbating as, as a, a method of keeping yourself from using, as a way to focus or distract your mind. Yeah, break that cycle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. That's a— that's an interesting question too, because it is again universal, right? I mean, one of the first things I'll ask, and I've said it on the podcast before. You know, have you jerked off? Have you wanked? Have you masturbated? Masturbated, I guess, is the, the, the word that would be the most common, right? Have you masturbated? If you're, if you're calling me and you're having a big craving, have you done that yet? That's gonna be my first question. So, um, which some people— there are also some clinicians here who disagree with that.

Really?

And that they think, yeah, and they, they think if you get into the habit of masturbating that it actually It actually makes the craving grow, um, a little further down the line because you are starting to think about sex and you're starting to think, you know, visualize and fantasize through, through the, through the masturbating. So there's some people that disagree with that. Um, I just have seen it so many times, the post-nut clarity that comes, you know, right there.

Yeah.

And there, then you're like, oh yeah, what am I doing, right? Oh yeah, I don't want to do that.

Right. You're released from this sort of inexorable slide into doing something and pursuing contact with people that wouldn't be helpful right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a part of you, like when I ask, have you jerked off? There's this part of you that doesn't want to because you know subconsciously it's going to end it, right? Because there's part of you that doesn't want to end this tractor beam.

That's either— it feels like a waste. It feels like— or sometimes I think it feels like you're kind of throwing something away that's so special in life. It's so amazing. I think, yeah, but that special amazing thing is basically gonna just ruin my day.

That's right.

In my case, sometimes you have things to do and you just really wanna be distracted all day.

Right.

And maybe at the end of it, get this reward that I hope— I'm hoping deep down is there.

But that's right.

I will have wasted the day and I won't get it anyway. Or I could just have a short 15-minute enjoyment now.

Yeah.

Wouldn't be— it won't be spectacular, mind-blowing. But then, yeah. And it's weird how I can kind of, without having a discussion with myself, can basically just talk myself out of that and just go, oh, that would be a waste.

Right.

But yeah, you're right. There's also like not wanting to get out of the cycle, really.

Yeah, you have to— you, you— it's a good assessment of where you are with it in terms of, um, how much do you want to use, you know, and how much do you really want it to be over? Are you ready? Are you willing to take— to do what it takes, which is go jerk off, right? Um, I don't know what you would call that. That'd be a good question we can pose for the listeners, um, to come up with some like, um, creative name that would be You know, recognized globally.

I thought of, uh, the only thing I could come up with was like a phrase was like pulling the ripcord.

Have you pulled the ripcord?

Yeah, I think that kind of works.

Yeah, so I did have it. Yeah, well, I did have a client who called it the nuttin' block when he would get random texts from old user friends. Hey, where are you? Where you at, I think, is how you— what did you start with? Oh, WYD is how you started the one, the one, one book, right? You're volume 2, I think. What are you doing is question mark in the thought bubble. But yeah, when you get that WYD or what's up or whatever, you know what they want, right? So he'll nut and block. He, you know, he goes and jerks and blocks them, um, because that, that for him was his particular big, big trigger. Was because it was always, it was always some guy who was extra fun, extra hot, doesn't use that much. So he's not, you know, I don't know, he's not the typical user. And, you know, it's always somebody who makes it so hard to say no to, right? He called it the nuttin' block. But yeah, I don't know, we should, we should really explore that. Because I, that's one of my I had to do a podcast on, um, if I had to do it, if I had to start over, what are the 7 meth— blue meth-free blueprint is what I called it, I guess. 7, 7 something, I forgot what it was called. Anyway, it was 7 things I would do over if I had to start over again, right? And one of them was I would masturbate. Like, as soon as I woke up, I would masturbate. I would masturbate at the end of the day. I would masturbate in the middle of the day if I had to, right? And of course, this isn't the rest of your life. You don't have to do that. But I'm talking about early chemsex recovery, the first 90 days. It will clear your mind. It will clear the cache out, as you know, is a way of saying it, and help you get back online real quick, real quick.

And I think it's one of the things that— because that's kind of— that's not normal. I think people are trying to get back to normality and they want normal. They want to have the same kind of sex life. That, that doesn't seem like the right thing to do. But it's— yeah, I think it's worth thinking about. Like, for my recovery, I have to have this medicinal kind of intervention with myself.

That's right.

You know, or this therapeutic. And I think there's an opportunity for some storytelling there as well. It's like, to make it enjoyable. It's like, oh, I have to do this first thing in the morning.

Like, you know, I don't know. Yeah, well, I get to do it. You could change that to I get to do it. Yeah, I get to ask. I get to come.

Whatever sexiest or whatever is most appealing to someone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, eventually, right? And eventually, you know, there is this— there is the issue of sexual reintegration, right? Um, because there's a lot of trauma, and sometimes your dick doesn't even work anymore. Um, you know, libido Up and down. So there's this whole idea of sexual reintegration, getting into sober sex. Do I want to do kinks anymore? Am I into fetishes? All those topics we've gone over here, all of that can be addressed later, right? But for now, and it's not going to— because sexual reintegration for the most part with chemsex is going to require mindful masturbation where you're just touching your body and exploring it, what feels good without porn, you know, and all this kind— like, you can get to that later, um, but definitely in the first 90 days— well, maybe even farther— but you're gonna have to— you're gonna have to do that. I mean, it's just— it's my first question always when, when a guy contacts me and says, I have a craving, I can't, you know, I can't manage it. Sometimes it takes twice, depending. So yeah.

I've also had clients who said, like, it doesn't help, like, you know. And that's That's a tough situation to be in. Knocking one out doesn't reduce your desire to get into it. I wouldn't want to— yeah, that's— yeah, it's so kind of tragic that this chemsex can kind of weaponize your own sex drive against you in this way. It's like, this is one of the things I think that drew me to the topic, that it's, you know, it's so kind of tragic. And I'm kind of a sexual person myself, and if you guessed, um, I think that something that drew me to this subject is I do feel that there but for the grace of God go I. It's weird that I didn't get messed up in this. And like I said, if I hadn't gone online and gone looking for information that I felt I wasn't supposed to know or felt was dangerous, subversive information, if I hadn't gone looking for it, then I definitely would have walked right into it. meth. It would have happened at some point because I was interested in drugs and getting out of my head, and I had trauma to block out. And, um, and I, you know, what was— came to London for adventure, you know, and as a lot of people do. And that's one of the adventures that is very readily available.

Oh yeah.

So I do kind of really relate to this idea of how terrible it would be If something that's so pure and pleasurable and is already kind of tainted by trauma for gay people, for LGBTQ people, it's already tainted by, you know, heteronormative, traumatic, disparaging ideas about what's normal and what's proper sex and sexuality. And then you manage to find your footing and have a sex life and find your own space and your own people. and then this drug complicates and immiserates everything for you. It's just— yeah, it does. I feel it. I feel very compassionate about it. And it's huge. It's all around us.

Yeah.

It's very current. It's very relevant. It's not spoken about enough. And I just feel that, like, somehow I dodged that bullet. It grazed me, um, and I, I'm sort of mystified in a way.

Yeah, yeah.

I've, um, you know, I've overdone so many things in my life, um, and just, I just managed to step back from the brink when it came to, it comes to chems.

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I'm glad that you feel called because you're doing good work. And big work, and I think a lot of healing work for a lot of people. So thank you for what you're doing. I appreciate it very much.

And thank you. You're doing great work as well. I'm really enjoying your, your videos and the, you know, the content that you're doing and the interviews and the podcasting. It's great stuff.

Great. Thank you. I appreciate that. Did you have any other questions?

For me, uh, that's all I could come up with. Be very interested to know if your, um, if your viewers, uh, have any thoughts on those things.

Oh yeah, we'll get it. We'll get— you'll get— we'll get feedback for sure. Yeah.

Okay, but be nice, people. I've seen some— I've seen some brutal comments on your posts.

I know. Yeah, I, I get a lot of hate, a lot of hate, um, But I've just learned to heart the comment. What I will say, I'm learning to just heart the comment and move on. Sometimes I— it gets the best of me and I'll start replying back and it's always a mistake, but I'm trying not to now. Just let them have their opinion. You know, everybody's allowed to have their opinion, but it gets really personal too. But, you know, it's expected. But yeah. Well, thank you for spending time with us today. Appreciate that. And we're going to put your website In the show notes. So if you're interested in looking at Ed's work and his art, you can go there and take a look. You can order and it can be delivered in the US. Like I said, just be mindful. It is very graphic. It's very sexual. It's drug use in it. And so just keep that in mind. I'm not saying go out and get it, but I'm saying listen to yourself. And if it's something that you think would help, or something that you think would help others, you know, go ahead and order it, please. But there's other, other things that he— that Ed has done too that I think would be enjoyable for a lot of you out there listening. So with that being said, we're going to end it here, and I will see you guys next week. Thank you, Ed.

Thank you.