EP 2:17: Sexual Reintegration AfterMeth with Mell McCracken

Hey y'all, if you are abstinent from meth, but you are not healed sexually, or you're in a place where you are not finding fulfillment from sober sex, this episode is an important one. Hey, if you are enjoying sex after meth, but would like to go deeper, no pun intended, find expanded intimacy, or open your curiosity to who you are sexually and what you want, This episode is also for you. We've recorded many episodes in the 2 seasons that we've been in existence here around the subject of sober sex aftermath, and I hope that you find value in every one of them. But this particular one with my soul friend Mel is a dense one. They have more knowledge about chemsex recovery than probably anyone in the country right now. That's my opinion, and has helped so many people find sexual liberation after being hijacked by Chemsex. So I am so excited to offer you this content. This is valuable. You're getting such value, the opportunity to pick the brain of a specialist, a specialist who deals with Chemsex on a day-to-day basis for the last 10 years. This is going to give you some impactful first steps for the journey. I mean, this is one you're going to want to earmark And especially make sure that you get the study guide. Sexual reintegration after meth is the number one concern of the men I talk to and the men I work with. And as a coach, I can do a lot of prep work and I can share my lived experience, but I suggest you find a therapist like Mel to help guide you through the whole process. It really can be life-changing. Changing. All right, enjoy the episode. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm grateful that you're here. Thank you all. We had another record month In the month of—

what month was it?

May. In the month of May, we had more downloads than ever since we started in April of 2024. I am really confused on month and day and year anymore. But the point is we are growing. And if you're a new user, I want to welcome you. If you've been with us since the beginning, thank you for sticking with us. Please continue to send your messages, your DMs. I really love to read What you have to say about the podcast and how it's helped you. And please feel free to suggest topics. I've been listening to you, and we had the topic on ADHD. We had the topic on EDMR, and those are yeah, EMDR. Okay.

EDM.

EDM. EDM. We're gonna do EDM. We did do dancing, conscious dance.

I thought—

That was not suggested, but we did it. So, you know, continue to suggest topics is what I'm trying to say. Don't be afraid. Don't be ashamed. So don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide for each episode. You're really going to want to tune into the one for this one. The link is in the show notes. You can also get the study guide emailed directly to you if you join my mailing list at www.drdallasbragg.com. And you can go to blog and subscribe to the blog, and that study guide comes straight to your email box. You know, If you want free resources, I have plenty of them. I mean, you get a study guide each week with the podcast. You get a study guide every other Monday with the different topics like perfectionism. We have— I have people pleasing coming out next week, and it gives you a lot of actionable exercises, journal prompts, reflective questions. There's a lot of juicy stuff there you can get for free. You can join our Facebook community, which is also free. The Aftermath Podcast. We have a YouTube account which is called The Aftermath Podcast. And I have to remind you, if you try to find us, make sure your phone doesn't autocorrect to aftermath, or you will find something very different than what this is. So thank you for listening. Today I'm excited to bring back a true, true friend of mine, Mel. Mel was with us last season, and it was Really, I think my top probably three favorite episodes. You really, you really touched me, and you have touched me period. I think just there's just some people you meet, and you just immediately know that you're going to be friends for life. And I feel that way about you. I've just you are just a light. You are just a light mill on this earth, and I just appreciate you, and I'm so happy. We connected on TikTok.

Thank to TikTok gods for that. Yes, and likewise. Light sees light, Dallas. So I am eternally grateful to have met a person like you in the world.

Oh, thank you. So Mel, can you introduce yourself to us? Tell us what your favorite things about you.

My favorite things about me? Well, first and foremost, like my vocation and my profession and what I do in the world. Um, is I'm the executive director of No Matter What Recovery, and we're an LGBTQ inpatient and outpatient treatment center here in Los Angeles, California. Now with that comes kind of passion and purpose of one of the parts of Mel. Um, in my area of expertise is definitely around chemsex. I've been in study for, I would say, almost a decade in acute treatments. So, uh, long-standing history with the passion and purpose that found me. Um, I was not going out looking for this. It just kind of landed with me, and it was the thing that lit my heart on fire the most in this world. So as a professional, this is what I do. I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. I'm also a substance use counselor, advocate, educator. There, there's a lot of acronyms that go with Mel McCracken. But for the me, for the I, I am a person in recovery. I'm a person in long-term recovery.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I am a person that is very passionate about advocacy and change in my community because I'm kind of seeing what's happening and, uh, kind of looking at the playing field and being an active participant and not just a witness on the sidelines to helping my community, um, whether it's expanding mental health care or gender-affirming services, whatever I can do. So that's a part of me too. I'm also an artist. I love to paint.

Hmm.

I love to draw. I love to do pottery, um, anything that I can get my hands on. I think tactile, uh, function is so important to me in my recovery process because that is a very spiritual experience. It's just me and a paintbrush and blank canvas. So I mean, there's so many different other facets, but I also love to play music. I play guitar.

So do you?

I do. Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's a resting place for me too.

So yeah. Yeah. Finding out new things.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

We're spectrums, uh, all of us here. Oh, I got many colors on the spectrum.

Yeah, you are. What a— so many credentials. And I would say This is me talking. Mel would never say this, but I think of you as probably the in this country, in the U.S., I would say you're the leading expert on chemsex. That's what I would think. That's how I think of you. Like anybody else, I can never think of who knows more and has more experience with chemsex recovery, and it's just an honor to have you. On the podcast and as a friend and just the generosity you have. I mean, you're a busy, busy, busy person. And no matter what, by the way, if you're listening and you're looking for a recovery center that knows chemsex, that understands you as a man who has, who has sex with men going through this, no matter what, Recovery is the place to go, the place to be.

Yeah.

Mel is there too.

We also like have a 90-day curriculum that is built on, you know, 10 years of experience, education, and I would say deep listening, right? Because like I said, I'm a person in recovery, so I understand the nuances of that. But, you know, everything that I've ever learned has been from really listening with intention and, and looking for patterns and things of that nature. So we, we've included that all in a 90-day curriculum.

Yeah, well, you looked at my 90-day book. You were just so generous with your time and your knowledge, and that's hard to find. It really is hard to find. You, you really live a life of service.

Thank you, thank you. That's my primary purpose in this world is like, how can I help just a little bit more? And, you know, meeting people like you in my kind of star family, I'll call it.

Yeah.

We walk together. That's what we do. Like, we're helpers and we help each other.

Yeah, thank you. Well, you inspire me and bring me back to ground a lot just by being around you, so thank you.

Awesome.

Yeah, so you're a certified sex therapist, and I, you know, I've said this on the podcast— I'm sorry, what'd you say?

Certified sex addiction therapist.

Addiction therapist. Sex addiction therapist.

Yes, sorry. Yeah. Um, wild difference between like the sex therapist and this. Yeah, that distinction, right?

So yeah, yes, yes, sex addiction therapist. Um, you know, I've said on the podcast before, the number one question I get, the number one problem that I get that I hear from men is the sexual reintegration, right? Or I can't stop using because the sex is never going to be the same, or I need to have sex on meth because you know, the— it's vanilla sex, um, you know, that kind of thing. But there's a subset of guys, and, and, you know, I have clients in this, in this case where we've been without meth for a while. And, and I remember this, I remember this day. It took me 2 years to really get an erection after meth, you know, which I felt paralyzed.

Yeah.

From the, from the waist down, I felt paralyzed. There was no, you know, nocturnal erection. There was no waking up with a hard-on or anything like that, um, much less wanting to have, you know, sex or anything. So there's a subset of us who, who we've, we've been without meth for a while and now we're ready. We, we realize you're never going to have meth sex. However, we do know that we can have sex again and we can enjoy it. We just don't know where to start and how, right? And I always tell men, look, the first thing you got to do is believe it's possible, right? That's huge.

Right?

Um, but you know, that's the belief part, and that's the foundation for me, is that you got to stop saying, I'm never going to enjoy sex again, I'm never going to have meth sex again. No, you're not, but you can enjoy it again. So if you could, if you're— if, if I was a client that came to you and I just said that, like, look, I'm ready, I'm ready, like, I know I want to have sex again, I just don't know where to start, what do I do?

Um, I think my first question is always when someone comes to me and they're like, Mel, I'm ready to have sex. Like, aside from, you know, assessing appropriateness, right? If someone's in their first 30, that's probably not a good idea because But I, I would ask the question, well, what's letting you know you're ready to have sex? Like, what is it? Sensation-oriented? Is it I'm having fantasies? Is it I'm experiencing maybe arousal again for the first time? And I love what you said about that too, Dallas, because a lot of people carry a lot of shame around, you know, erectile dysfunction and early recovery.

Right.

And, and like, your body is just trying to come back to homeostasis and Really trying to metabolize being in a sober physical being takes some time. You know, I have found that a lot of people experience pressure in the community to have sex too soon, or you know whether that's internal pressure, or I call them sexpectations of how I'm supposed to be, or that you know my body is this sexual capital, thus I must perform in a certain way. So I see people. Kind of succumb to that kind of pressure without acknowledging that all of those symptoms, right, those are trustworthy. Like, in learning how to trust your body, learning how to trust arousal, learning how to trust the essence of who you are really, um, is a big piece in the recovery process. And are you pushing, or is it actually time? Because there's drugs And then there's desire. A lot of time meth is a tricky bitch. He dresses in drag all the time and it usually looks like a hot profile, right? Behind that, there lies meth, right? And so figuring out and learning how to discern, is this like desire-driven, right? As me as a sexual human coming back online and back into a sexual body. Or is this like this urgency? And I think one is sensory and one is sensational. Like, sex is an emergency and like you feel like it's a 5-alarm fire. I'm going to err on the side that says that that is impulsivity, which falls in line with meth, right? And sex is never an emergency, right? Especially in sexual recovery.

Yeah.

It should be a 911 emergency, right? And if it is, maybe there's some sort of nervous system activation that's, you know, integrated actually with sexual arousal. And so you might want to do some work around that. But I think when it's, you know, your God-given desire kind of coming back online, um, it's very sensory oriented, right? Like, you, you can smell things, you can touch things, even the taste of something. Like, things might taste a little bit sweeter if I'm eating ice cream. Like, it's a very sensory experience versus the sensational electric charge that chemsex has, right? And I also don't lie to my clients. They will never feel like that again, but it will be so much more than you can ever imagine, right? It's such a narrow focus with chemsex. It's a very narrow focus. You got the phone, the computer, you know, a couple of randos, and, you know, they're just— everything is sticky, right? But very narrow focus. But with sexual recovery, we ask people to expand into many different dimensions of what it means to be a sexual human to them. And everyone is going to have, you know, a different experience of what they're attracted to, their likes, their dislikes, with turn-ons, turn-offs. But getting back in touch with that and going back to kind of factory settings, if you will, before meth came in, hmm, I think is really important. And walking through sexual values and sexual belief systems, because am I actually being driven by my own desire? Or am I coming from ideas that maybe were impressed upon me? Right? And that could be like childhood trauma, that could be religious trauma, um, that often kind of get implanted and begin to lead the way. Contacting your true erotic self is a huge part of sexual recovery, but it requires some work. It requires some self-reflection. So it was a very long answer, but like—

Very full. Very full.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I love this idea of asking, you know, asking yourself a lot of questions is really— is a key, isn't it?

Yes. Curiosity.

Curiosity without an in— without expecting an outcome either, right? Just, just one. It's like wonder, like you're just curious.

We live in the question. I, I think as a person in recovery, I, I try and live more in the question than I do in an answer I think I Because if I'm living in the question through curiosity, um, there's— it feels like there's a lot more possibility. But if I go straight to, I know the answer, I know what sober sex is— do you?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm gonna ask, like, yeah, like, you have a reference point maybe from when you were a teenager of what that was like, but also, is that an accurate reference point? And how can we grow and expand that? So, resourcing.

Yeah. Yeah. And along those lines, I think it helps to start your questions with how. Like, how can I enjoy sober sex again, right? How, how can I? Instead of I'll never or will I ever, you know, is, is how can it happen? That opens up the possibilities of it happening, I think.

Yeah, it really does, because, you know, we are some of our thoughts, feelings, and feet. And so, like, all of those take us to the places that we're going. And if we're just kind of living in a belief system that is very shut down, of course we're going to find experiences where we're shut down. But if we're living in a question, then, you know, there is really something that is a wide breadth and very expansive.

Mm-hmm.

And then a question brings another question, and then another, right? But an answer, it just limits us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially with sex, because it's so nuanced and it's such an essence, right? So like, I don't even— I, I think we just continue to grow, and you know, our arousal templates and who we're attracted to begins to change, right? All of these things and these parts of us grow up with us. In sobriety. But the reflection piece is the most important because then you get to discard maybe what is not your idea of sexuality and actually uncover like who you are as a sexual—

Okay, yeah, I like this. Asking yourself sensory or sensational, you know, the desire— the drugs will have an electric charge The desire would be more sensual, or more sensory.

Sorry. Yeah, the presence. There's the presence in the mind, body, and spirit versus this disconnected trance-like state.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for you listening, is when you ask the question, is this sensory or sensational, like we're saying, you don't have to have an answer right away, but you're opening your mind up to begin to find that Right, to really discover where you are on that spectrum of sensory, sensational, and, and what's driving you to want to have sex again, right? I mean, that's— yeah.

I, I think that that is one of the most important questions. And is it just because I'm actually hungry for sexual connection and intimacy with another person, or are there other things at bay, right? And not kind of falling into the trap of the other things, I will say, that might be driving the bus and really putting yourself, um, in the front seat. Like, oh, I actually want to have sex because I desire connection, intimacy, even I'm horny. Like, all of those, all of those are great and fine. But my question is really around who's driving the bus.

Yeah, yeah. Who's driving the bus? Is Instagram driving the bus? You know, are your friends that are having sex driving the bus?

Right? I mean, you go out to dinner and like, listen, I, I have gaggles of gays that I hang out with in my recovery program. We go out for fellowship and like looking at the table and I'm like, wow, half of y'all like notifications are popping off. And then I noticed it takes other people away from the actual moment. So we kind of have a little rule that phones are not at the table. Yeah, it takes away from presence and connection that's in front of you. And I— and that might be something that is driving the bus, right? Is like the status quo, or even beliefs around sexual value, right? I think that there's this overarching kind of like bodies are capital in the community. And like, you're— can I cuss on your podcast?

Oh, yeah.

All right, good.

This is good.

Oh yeah. Okay, like your fuckability meter determines your worth, right? And, and it's like breaking through that, right? And like, those are old ways of being in the world. And, you know, entering into a new paradigm where I'm so much more than my body or my sexual capital— like, that's an important piece, right? But it doesn't have to determine who you are, your value, or your worth in the world. And I think a lot of times there's so many stakes put in that corner without even seeing the human behind it, the objectification and sexualization.

Yeah, yeah. But how do we— even in recovery— so I've, I, I have dropped out of some Facebook recovery groups because I noticed the more fuckable you are, the more attention you get.

Right, right.

Um, and it's a gay men's group, right? How do we— how do we break that? Like, where do we go to find a culture that doesn't— that your body isn't your capital? Like, like, is it just— does it just start with us, or do we be the change we want in the world?

That's what Gandhi said right there. Be the change you want. Like, I think it You know, this is so rooted in, you know, our first sustained trauma, right? In the 1980s, when the HIV crisis started to hit New York City, there was so much focus on looking well, on bodies, um, and, and fuckability, right, through— throughout the epidemic, that we've kind of adopted, um, that narrative. In the community, right? And it really wasn't pre-HIV, it wasn't like that. If you look at photos of, you know, gay men in the '70s, we had the clones, right? But they were a subsect and they were a subculture. But like gay men in the '70s, I, I mean, I don't want to say normal, but they look like kind of more normal, like, you know, the guy you would find that lives 2 doors down, right? Like very adapted to society. And now there's such a heavy focus on exterior wellness or looks, um, that I really think is a trauma that we've kind of adopted in our community, right? And so like we look through that lens, and you're asking about a change. It starts here. It starts here and now. It starts in the conversations that I have with people. It starts, um, you know, my eyesight, how I look at people. Like I find people attractive all the time. Do I have desire? Yes. Fuck yes, I do. I can note that. And then I can also see the human behind that. And it's enriching conversations. And you know what I will say is wildly unpopular, but I think apps have really been a big downfall in our community because we say things we would never say to a person.

That's right.

If they were in front of us, behind the screen of an app, we're hurtful. There's racism, there's xenophobia, there's transphobia. Like, it is almost this breeding ground of, you know, app culture where people don't see others as human.

Yeah.

So then you walk into a room and there are other people there, like, you might still have that lens on, right? And just scanning for objectability or scanning for fuckability. Yeah. So I would say if you're looking for like, sexual integration, or, you know, even like the boyfriend experience or boyfriend's experience, whatever you identify, you're monogamous, whatever, you're not going to find it there. Like, in getting back into relationship with each other, getting back into courtship, or even learning courtship.

Yeah.

I never learned courtship skills. I always had everything secretive and hidden in my formative adolescent years. That wasn't something that was available for me. Yeah, it's not available to most of us in the community.

Yeah.

So I think it is a part of our responsibility to not kind of pass down these sustained traumas, to actually educate and look at what it might be like to go on a date with someone. That was never in the cards for me, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And I had to learn all that and fumble through it in my 20s. I live in a very, um, harsh area, especially around LGBTQ folks. I couldn't be out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, anybody who listens to this podcast knows how I feel about the apps, and especially in early recovery, you know, you have to stay away from them. But not just the— not just Grindr and Sniffies. I'm talking about Instagram, Facebook, You know, social media too. I think you need to take a break, um, from them the same, the same, the same way. Um, yeah, so something you said, factory settings. So we want to return to factory settings after, like, as if before we went on meth. And in that, I think what you're referring to too is the arousal template.

Yes.

So I hear this a lot. And I mention it a lot, but I, I'm not— I want you to talk to me like a 2-year-old and say, like, if I want to know what is my arousal template, um, I assume this arousal template has been obliterated by my experience with chemsex. How do I, how do I rebuild it? What do I know? Where do I start with that?

Very good question. And also, I I don't know that it's obliterated. I think there are— you have a chemsex arousal template, hijacks your factory setting arousal template, right? So it just gets hijacked and it will live over here. And for those of you who have gone in and out and relapsed, you know that it returns to a chemsex arousal template. I'm going to set this over here and we're going to start with it, with it early.

So what, what is the arousal template then?

So your arousal template, it's really developed in childhood, right? Like, it starts developing and kind of ends with its factory settings about age 8, right? So it is genetics, it is biology, it is cultural, it's what you've learned, right? And then, you know, if you are a person who's grown up with trauma and complex childhood trauma, that may also find its way into your arousal template. It's what you witness, right? What you see on TV, what you see in your household, how your parents interact with each other, how they interact with you, your friendships, right? Your crushes early on, we're talking very early on. And then like with the genetic piece, like that's actually going to determine what characteristics you find attractive, right? So I'm going to take us all the way back to like prehistoric times, right?

Good, good.

That's living with the dinos and I'm chilling in someplace, you know, like Alaska. I may not find someone who, you know, grew up in Indonesia attractive because they do not have the survival skills that one would need. One is from the tropics and one is from Alaska. Like, genetics actually play a role in who we're attracted to. And this continues right throughout your adolescent years, and you start to add things to it.

Okay.

Now, I will say that specifically in the rainbow population, if you are a person that had to hide who you were, but you were still kind of having secretive sex.

Mm-hmm.

That will also start to get wrapped up in your arousal template.

Yeah.

Yeah. If you felt shame about the sex you were having, and I'm talking adolescent years, that will get wrapped up in your arousal template or fear. So later in life, we find a lot of people that, you know, feel a sense of shame and it becomes intolerable. And then actually, like, they get horny, right? They're like, I feel ashamed. Like, what is happening here? Like, I feel awful, but I also want to fuck. This is very weird. And this means that there is an intersection between shame, the experience of shame, and actual desire, right? And also the same goes with fear, right? If I'm in a fight or flight state, and sex is the emergency that we were talking about earlier, it's because there is you know, that has also been wired into, you know, an attractiveness or an arousal template too. So I always talk about, you know, when I do, I do a lot of presentations at CMA, I talk about Terry. And Terry was one of my first experiences in high school. And we would sneak off at parties and we'd go all the way to the back of someone's property. And then, you know, she would walk back first and I would walk back second. And she was also dating the high school, like, football star who was like this Big beefy dude, like he was so massive. He was like six one and like just yoked, right? And so I was very much afraid of her boyfriend. Oh my God! But no one knew, and I wasn't out at the time either, right? But there were all these like quiet secret interludes or interactions I was having. But Terry is so memorable for me because you know I would go over, I'd sneak in her window late at night, like you'd sneak out. All of that stuff. And I would go to school the next day. And she would not even look at me.

Hmm.

It's as though I didn't even exist. And I had the biggest crush on her. I thought she was the coolest. And like, we were also kind of fooling around and figuring it out as teenagers do. So, you know, the dismissal, right, started to kind of get into my thoughts of attractiveness, or even feeling rejected or feeling abandoned. All of these things started to really weave themselves together. And so guess what, when I went to pick a partner, I picked someone who would dismiss me, who would not give me time or space. And like, that became my arousal template and what I was attracted to, because it triggered these deep down feelings that I had in this, you know, relationship, we'll call it, with this person in high school. So when I started to do all the work around my experience of rejection, my experiences of dismissal, and grow my tolerance, my arousal template actually grew. And I know we hear like, I have a bad picker a lot. No, honey, you don't have a bad picker.

Right.

You just learned something.

Right.

That got tangled up in your arousal template. It's the unlearning, right? And returning back to factory settings. Is the unlearning of all those things that I, I don't know if this is the experience as much in the heterosexual community as it is in the queer community. That's not mainly like the work that I do, but it's so prevalent, right? And I call it the fight, flight, or fuck, right? It's nervous system activation and then immediately having sex, right?

Mm-hmm.

As a means to cope. Sex is the OG coping skill, Dallas. The first thing people can turn to outside of drugs or alcohol. And if it gets kind of mixed up with secrecy or shame or even driven by fear, then there's some unpacking to do. But you're kind of— your primary arousal template is, it's kind of set and there's not really anything you can do to change that.

Mm-hmm.

But what you can do is make additions. You can try new things. There's like novelty. Um, try going out with someone you would never go out with. Like, there are a lot of things that can be added to the original template.

Okay, but your template of being dismissed, part of that template, right? I want to be rejected, I want to be dismissed, I want to be ignored. What'd you say?

I call it hurt hunting. Yeah, only attracted to the people that are gonna hurt me or like fuck me over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that was so deeply ingrained in an arousal template.

But you said that arousal templates never change, but you, you had to unlearn that. Is that right?

That baseline, that baseline. So you're like 8. Yeah, that's kind of like set, like talking about I like blondes with blue hair. Like, that piece sucks.

Okay.

Everything else is workable.

Okay.

Like, you, you can work with everything else. And the more you kind of maybe do some therapeutic work, or even 12-step work can help for those that attend program, um, and address, you know, the shame or the rejection or the fear, it starts to dissipate And you're no longer attracted to those things, right? Or they're not going to have the same pull that they would.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah, I mean, what a practice to go through, to think about your biology, your culture, what trauma, you know, what did you witness, who were your friends with. Like you're saying, like, what, what kind of situations did you go through, like in high school, your first crush? You know, all of that's going to give you really valuable information about why you, why you liked what you did, right?

Right.

Um, and so that is different than— that gets hijacked by chemsex.

Yes.

Does it get perverted by chemsex? Does it get escalated? Does it get muddied by, by what you're doing in chemsex?

I would say that it is perfumed, right? Because like with chemsex, it kind of creeps into all the nuances of one's sexuality. Um, but I really, I try and create kind of a division between the two, right?

Okay.

Sexual recovery is really more focused on expansion of one's arousal template and integration into that and like, really exploring in a safe way, maybe trying out new things. You know, there's some novelty and— but when it comes to your chemsex arousal template, I'm going to put that over here. And I will say that in your first kind of 90 days, like anything that was happening in a chemsex setting, you need to put it high on a shelf. Whether it's the jockstrap you're wearing, the porn you're watching, the phone you were using, Like all of those things, because it's so powerful.

Mm-hmm.

And if you're trying to get back to just an arousal template that you can work on, you're gonna have to eliminate the triggers for a minute and kind of go into a mode of self-preservation and, and protection around your sexual self and your recovered self. Because oftentimes with the chemsex arousal template, because meth is meth, It can produce, um, really high acuity visual memory, meaning what you're thinking about— if you are masturbating and thinking about past sessions, that can send you to the moon, right? Because there's that euphoric recall and the induction of euphoric recall.

Mm-hmm.

So getting further and further away from the chemsex arousal template means bringing in new neural pathways that are gonna put you back at your kind of factory reset so you can add to that. Like, if you're watching porn and, you know, you're walking into sexual recovery, you're like, well, what do I do? I want to watch porn. I'm like, well, get a magazine. Like, read some erotic literature. Like, you know what I mean? You're gonna have to change some things in order to create different pathways that aren't the pathway straight to meth. And there's a ton of fun things that you can do. And I think, you know, sexual recovery is getting more in tune with your yourself. So like self-sex states, masturbation, focusing on, you know, the body and the sensate-focused skills are really helpful in sexual integration and moving away from chemsex arousal template into factory settings.

Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot there. I'm just thinking about, um, you know, something that that I had to do was I had to— I had to cut out porn. I had to cut out hookups. Um, you and I have had a discussion about masturbation.

We have.

You know, and, um, I am always learning and always changing, and that's okay, you know. But there's sometimes when I have told men, and I've said on this podcast, You know, that when you feel really, really activated and really there's an electric charge and you really want to go and use, is when you masturbate and you release, a lot of times there's that post-nut clarity and you're out of it. You wake up. It's like you wake up out of it.

That's what they call it.

Yeah, like, oh yeah, you know. But you, when we talked about this and you looked at my booklet, you had said that it's not something that you suggest. Yeah, masturbating within the first 90 days, right? Or maybe beyond.

I, I think that it's not about masturbation itself, it's the relationship to masturbation. And I really want to like say, by all means, if you're about to head out the door and use— and this is a huge effort— do it, honey. Whatever keeps you in the house, whatever keeps you away from the pipe. Yeah. No. Yeah, I will say that clinically speaking If you are thinking about drugs and you are having a craving and you're using sex as a tool, you are lighting up the same neural pathway to chemsex, just in a very different way.

Mm-hmm.

So you're thinking about drugs and you're using sex.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that there's a very unique opportunity in that moment where you're all activated to do a quick, like, 2-minute body scan, even pull in a different coping skill. and see if something else is available. If it's not and you're heading out the door, please, you know, DOH is what we call it here, like dick in hand, like go ahead. But, but if you can just pause for a moment, this is an opportunity and this is a window of being triggered. Don't waste a good trigger. It's always a good opportunity.

Yeah.

To explore what can I do instead of this? Is there something else that's available to me? And that's actually going to help you kind of grow your tolerance around cravings. But if I'm immediately using masturbation as a tool to address every single craving, I'm not actually getting myself away from that chemsex arousal template. I'm, I'm re-engaging and reactivating by doing so.

I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. And it's going to be I think it would require someone being very much in touch with their motivation, right?

Yeah, that's what we were talking about, what's driving the bus. Like, and you know, there's the— here's a fun fact, Dallas. So you are born biologically male in a male body, and you are not taking any sort of hormones, right? Um, and you're not under the trans umbrella. I will say that this study was just done with men who live as men and were biologically born cisgender. So you have cortisol, you have adrenaline, right? And these are the activating things, right? Adrenaline is the like run or fight, right? And then cortisol is also going to help you run or fight the bear that's coming in the room. But if you are biologically male, you also have access to testosterone when you have sex with another person. And this is important. I'm gonna get to the point. It neutralizes adrenaline and cortisol. So basically, if you are biologically male and you live cisgender without hormones, you have access to this internal sense of a Xanax that will put you on the ground. So when you say come to your senses or, you know, come into clarity—

Yeah.

Because the fight or flight response becomes neutralized when we engage testosterone, which goes up 72% when you have sex with another person if you're a man. For people born in female bodies, it's a little bit different. But for men, it's like having a built-in Xanax. Hmm. Fight, flight, or fuck. That's what I was just gonna say. I'm in a fight or flight activated response. I know what I can do. I can just immediately go to this internal drugstore that's already built in and just completely neutralize it. But that's not gonna work in the long run. You're not gonna be able to reach for that every single time. You may be at work, you may be, you know, you may be, you know, out with friends, whatever. That sensation comes up, you're gonna need to know how to implement coping skills.

Yeah.

You're gonna need tools, right? So when it comes to masturbation, use it as an opportunity, maybe the desire to masturbate as an opportunity and an exploration of what skills or tools can I put in front of this right now.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're, we're talking about arousal template. We're talking about kind of, you know, I think one thing maybe you tell me, but one thing you could do is look back at your relationships and find patterns.

Yeah.

Right? Like if you've dated kind of the same person every time and you've been in kind of a repetitive situation, that might tell you something about your arousal template.

Absolutely. Reflection is everything. Like a sexual belief survey, uh, you know, where'd you learn it? Who'd you learn it from? What have been your experiences? And if I grew up in, you know, a home with an emotionally available caregiver, my arousal template might lean me towards people who are emotionally unavailable, right? So it's like kind of parsing through that, right? Am I really attracted to this person, or is there like a trauma bond that's drawing me towards this person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, right, right. I mean, you have to really think about that. And so where does that come into play with fetishes? Like, when do we know that a fetish might be rooted in a, in a, the trauma part of your arousal template?

I want to, I guess I want to speak lightly around this because I love like kink and fetish.

Yeah, yeah.

And all the things, and I actually think they're a really safe place for people. Just because of the tenets of kink, right? The consent and all the things. I guess it would be determined really by how you feel in that moment. Like, is this something that, you know, is driven by pleasure in all aspects of the word? Or is this something driven by a traumatic experience? And especially with a lot of the chemsex folks I've worked with, it's a lot of people go out and reenact trauma and they kind of recreate early childhood abuse or, you know, sexual abuse. And honestly, Dallas, I, I'm just like, people are just looking for a different ending for a really painful story.

Hmm.

And so I see them just go back into the same settings. and just try and have a different ending. And it never really winds up that way, right? They just ended a little bit more wounded. And so I think that's why the exploration around, is this driven by shame? Is this driven by fear?

Yeah.

Is this driven by feeling rejected or not belonging? Like really asking the deeper questions around what's driving you into certain spaces and places. It's consensual and it's fun and it's playful and it's pleasure-driven. That's going to tell me that you're really in like your sexual recovery. But if you're coming maybe back from a play party and you're feeling awful, right?

Mm-hmm.

Disconnected, down, depressed, or just an emptiness, it was probably driven by something else because you will, you will have everything that you need to know. Um, before the experience and after the experience. And if it's trauma-related, oftentimes you might disconnect and not even be in the experience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This just sounds like a very cautious process, you know? And I, and I, I think it sounds like if you're listening is— and we've said it so many times— patience, patience, right? Patience and self-compassion. It's got to be present in this process. It's, it's delicate.

It's so delicate. And honoring our own fragility in early recovery, right? Yeah. Making space for that and being as generous as we can with our— the time allotted. Like, there's no timestamp on recovery, like, especially this type of recovery, because sex and sexuality is such a subjective experience. Everyone will have a different path, but it is learning what's trustworthy and tuning in.

Yeah. And, and I also think it's important to say, like, you were talking about the lighting up the same neural pathway of chemsex, right?

Yeah.

Something that, you know, maybe it is a fetish, maybe it— maybe you like to be fisted, right? Maybe that's something that you liked before meth. And you like during meth. So now though, that it's been interwoven, like the arousal templates, like the chemsex template has hijacked— I'm trying to use your words, I'm trying to not obliterate it, uh, but hijacked this arousal template. And so the first few times you tried fisting in after you're abstinent from meth, it may light up that same Pathway, right? But that doesn't mean it's forever.

No. And you know what, like, of course, you're gonna have thoughts. And like, as you integrate sexually, of course, like, your mind may travel back to certain experiences or even kind of light that up to a degree. But I think this is, this is the part of sexual recovery that is the most important. If that's something you enjoy, having a partner that you can take a timeout with, And give either a verbal or nonverbal cue that, hold on, I need to slow down. Let's give it 10 seconds off.

Yeah.

And then we can continue. So like the vetting process around sexual safety, especially if you're early on, is so important for that reason. Because if you just push past it and push through it, then that's kind of the pressure that I was talking about a little bit earlier, is that internal pressure of, oh, I have to do this. Rather than like taking a beat and having a reparative experience and saying, hey, can we just pause? And that, that's a tenet of consent. And that's your own consent. That's not for anyone else. It's important to honor our own sense of consent and boundaries and know maybe when I need to take a pause or when I, you know, just need to pull back altogether. I think that's one of the more important aspects of sexual integration is having someone or persons who you can trust, um, that are aware of your kind of recovery.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's so important, right? It's so important. Um, what do you say to men who are upset that they have to think about PNP scenarios to get off with other men? Does that, does that maybe be an indication that it's too soon to be Involving yourself with sex?

Well, I would say that one, I want to normalize that. Of course, of course, your brain's gonna go there.

Of course.

Yes. From like a raging addiction. Yes.

Right. Yes.

And also, maybe that's trustworthy information for you.

Yeah.

Because if it's, you know, I understand, like, if you're having sex with another person, and let's say it's 20 minutes, and you found yourself in fantasy about PNP for 19 of the 20 minutes, I'm gonna tell you it's too soon.

Yeah.

You're actually just spent in the fantasy of chemsex and not really actually present for sex. But if it's a couple of times and you just kind of redirect and come back to the moment, I want to normalize that and say like, of course, yeah, that's gonna happen. But if it's happening more often than not, that's something to listen to and something to pay attention to.

Yeah, yeah. Or H&H. I said P&P, it's H&H in some parts of the world.

Um, there's an acronym reason for it, but yeah.

Because I hear men discount the whole experience. I mean, they were able to get aroused, they were, they were able to get an erection, they had a sexual experience with another man that was— it was a sober sexual experience, but at the end they had to think of you know, of, of meth to actually come.

Yeah.

Um, and you don't— you should, you know, it— to discount that whole experience, it is— yeah.

Yeah, no, we don't want to do that. If like you are present for the majority of the experience, like, go on, move forward. Like, it will get easier as the years go by, right? Um, but if you're not present for the majority of the experience, that's, that's, that's an indicator that maybe it's too soon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Well, I think if, if you're listening and you, you want a starting point, I think this has given— it's a lot, but it's, it's at least something to start thinking about and reflection, questioning where is it coming from, am I being pressured, um, you know, caution. Thinking about your arousal template. Like, sit down and rewatch, re-listen to this, and sit down and really think about where it all came from and, and how do I unlearn. You know, I've always said it's almost like recovery isn't learning something new, it's unlearning what you thought you knew, right?

Yeah, it— you know, my mentor always says it's recovering the truth of who you are. Like, in recovery means to go and get something, to go and rescue something. And I think that rescuing is the essence of who our true selves are before the world got involved and told us who we needed to be.

Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I want to thank you for always guiding me in the, in the, in a more healthier direction and a more correct clinical direction, because You know, as a coach, this is an area where I just, you know, I talked to Dr. Fawcett about this. It's like, what can I say? What can I do as a coach in this area of sexual integration? Because there's very little that I, I feel like I, I need to get involved in. There's some things I can do in terms of sharing my experience, right? Like, I'm a big component of mindful masturbation because that's something that helped me.

Absolutely.

You know, I made up this whole man. You know, he was, he was with me for years.

I love that, like a sober script. Like, all of these things are super helpful and they're gonna, you know, help get you back into self.

Yeah. And yeah, and it discovered some things. Like, he— one night I, I was mouthful masturbation and he snuck in through my window and it was just so hot and I was like, oh, this is something I might like, you know.

Fantasy world. And that's something that meth steals, and I love it. that because meth takes our ability to fantasize. And when that starts coming back, it's so fun, right? Like, I always like different scenarios or scenes or things like that. When in the past it was purely meth-driven, it was purely drug-dependent. And get access to that again in sobriety. And I love that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what did I miss What do you think I should have asked about, or what do you think we left out of this conversation that would be helpful?

It was a very full conversation. Um, understanding sexual values, maybe something to expand on.

Okay.

And what that even means to people. Like, what do you value not in a partner In sex and sexuality, like playfulness, adventure, humor, like all of those, those value systems kind of bleed into who we are as sexual beings. And, uh, man, if I— I don't want to fuck someone I can't laugh with, like about the silly things, you know, like that, that may be a value I hold when it comes to sexuality. Um, so exploring that and Maybe some of the sexual health principles would be something to look at too.

So if I, if I ask myself what my sexual values are, yeah, right, and let's say one of them is, like you said, humor, what would be another sexual value? What would be, what would be some examples?

I mean, adventure. Okay, you know, sadomasochism.

Like, yeah, okay.

All of all of those. Here, I got it. Hold on.

I got this book right here. Ah, the book.

I have that I have all. Um, passion, novelty, playfulness, cleanliness, empathy, cuddling, wisdom.

Okay.

Maturity.

Okay.

Want someone who's like not immature when it comes to sex. Yeah. Yeah. I don't need any teenagers. Voyeurism. Like these are our All— like, these are all value systems, um, that people can work from.

Yeah. So if I know what my values are— my values, let's say they are cuddling, humor, passion, whatever, adventure, right? If I know what those values are, that's a way I can assess if this person is going to be a match for me.

Well, yeah, I think, you know, one of the pillars of sexual health is finding a person or persons that you have shared values with, right? Because I— if, yeah, if I, if I have someone who is really serious in the bedroom and I really value playfulness, we're just going to be amiss on our values. And it's like knowing this and like kind of spotting it in other people and then being able to have a dialogue about it. Like, what's important to you in sex? Is it the end product? Is it orgasm? Is it everything that comes before that? Is it foreplay? Is it novelty? I, I think those pieces are really important, especially in vetting partners.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is some work, you know, but it's worth it, right?

Yeah, yeah, every step of the way, because you, you begin to just grow into infinite possibility around sex and sexuality. Um, if there's any book I would ever give a plug for other than across it. It's Magnificent Sex by Dr. Peggy Klein-Flatt.

Okay.

Fantastic. And it's so funny because it's like this survey, uh, you know, all of these people who are self-proclaimed magnificent lovers, they're asked all these questions around what makes incredible sex, what makes you think you're a magnificent lover. And a lot of the, the notes that were taken Are around empathy, honesty, intimacy. Like, nothing had to do with sexual mechanic.

Hmm.

Like, everything had to do with presence. Like, and there's all these different chapters on it, but it really defines what makes extraordinary sex extraordinary. And it's all the things that are around it. It's not the room or the body. Yeah, it's the ritual, it's the time, it's all of those things that actually make sex incredible. Wow. You get to deepen into all that when you get into sexual recovery, and you get to have sex without drugs. Come on.

Right, exactly. Yeah, I can see me being asked on like Grindr, what, what you into? You know, empathy.

It's like we are so dense in the community, just on, like I said, sexual capital, the mechanics of it. But it's like, no, I want to feel like a closeness and not just like a body I don't know touching me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot more to discuss. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of men with fear of other men. There's trauma that you have coming out. We've talked about the heartbreak of Kim's ex, um, last season. If you didn't watch that, if you didn't listen or watch that episode, go back. It's the heartbreak of him sex with, with Mel. Um, there's a lot more around sex that we could talk about, but we're out of time today. Um, but I really appreciate this, this conversation. I think it's going to help many people around the world. Um, there's just, there's so many of you men out there who are hurting, who are— you shut yourself down. And, and you— and I, I see it all the time. 2 years, 5 years without ever um, having or trying to have sex because you've just given up on the possibility. And there is hope for you. There's hope, there's healing, there's people who can help, there's resources. I mean, this podcast is one of them. So I hope that you— I hope that this can rekindle some of your hope and your desire.

Desire.

Right? I hope it does. And I hope that you will go out and, and try something and just start asking yourself some questions. It just starts there, right?

Yeah, it really is with the curiosity. And I understand, like, the body becomes kind of the scene of the crime.

Yes.

I'm into recovery. So it's really a big ask for people to go back into their bodies and really be curious about sensation or even the shutdown or the amp up, whatever it is. Um, but one day or another you're gonna have to live in this body.

Yeah.

And that part of— a part of this body is not destroyed by love. You have a right to be.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Thank you, Mel, for your time. It's very precious, and I appreciate that very much. Um, you all that are listening, if you have any questions, you can send them. You can send them to me. You can comment on the YouTube and start a thread. You can comment on Spotify. I will put some— something in the notes to contact you, Mel, if that's okay. Or at least No Matter What Recovery, one or the other.

So you can put my email in there, Dallas. I, I try and make myself as available as I can.

Well, I, I stand by that. I have seen it for myself, so I appreciate that. All right, guys, we'll see you next week. Okay.