EP 2:18 Turning Pain Into Purpose with Ben Kaye

Hey y'all, if you've tuned into this podcast, you are casting a vote for the person you want to be— a person not only abstinent from meth, but becoming the highest and best version of you every single day. Congratulate yourself, because by tuning into this podcast, you are telling the algorithm that more people need to know about the epidemic of chemsex in the men who have sex with men population. Even if you are supporting anonymously, By pushing play, you are helping create awareness around this global problem. And speaking of creating awareness, our guest today has worked tirelessly to do that in the UK. Ben Kay is a shining example of how we can fulfill our passion and purpose after meth. If you've been through treatment centers and drug court like I have, you can attest to the lack of understanding in the system around Chemsex. You can feel so isolated. misunderstood. But Ben noticed a lack of knowledge in his own recovery journey and decided to do something impactful about it. So please enjoy this conversation with one of my new British buddies, and as you listen, I wonder if you'll be inspired to give back in your own way. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with Chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, We will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad you're here. If you're a new listener, welcome. Getting a lot of new listeners lately, and I appreciate you joining the family. Please feel free to give me some feedback too, if there's topics that we're missing. I'd like to hear from you if there's something that you think that we need to talk about that we're not. I would love to hear from— I would love to get some suggestions. I have heard feedback that we don't have enough color on the show. So I am getting some, really seeking out some people of color to come on and get their perspectives. So expect some of that coming up. Some really interesting Viewpoints too from minorities who are, um, have experience with chemsex, who are currently battling it. There's this feedback I'm getting on Instagram from a lot of people from the Black community who are saying that meth is not a Black drug. And if you look at the research, that is not a true statement. So I would like to bring on some people of color to talk about their experience. So if that is you, Please contact me and we can set up a chat and maybe have you on the show. Don't forget, every episode has a supplemental study guide that goes along with the episode. The link will be in the show notes. If you'd like to get the study guide in your email, you can go to www.dr—

DrDallasBragg.com.

And apply— not apply, what a day— and you can subscribe to my mailing list and you can get it right in your email box every Thursday at midnight when the Um, the podcast comes out. So, and also you can watch the podcast on YouTube. We have the Aftermath Podcast YouTube channel. If you don't like listening or if you like to see what the person looks like, which is a— I hear that a lot, um, which is going to be the case coming up. We have a couple of porn stars coming on the podcast, not today that I know of, but, um, but you might want to be able to see who you're talking to, who we're talking to. Um, but, uh, yeah, so you can also watch the podcast. And the thing about YouTube is you can also start a thread underneath and start a, um, a whole, a whole discussion. Speaking of YouTube, I found today's guest on YouTube. If you go to YouTube and search Chemsex, he's one of the top videos that comes up. Um, and even though there's a lot more people now, I would say in the past year even, Talking about chemsex on YouTube, Ben's video is shown probably some of them, one of the most, and it's a, it's a good one. He's recognized in this video with the Attitude magazine's— I forgot the name of the award— Attitude Pride Award. And so it's an interview with Ben. And so when I watched the interview, I was intrigued, and I've been tracking him down for quite a while and being very persistent to get his attention to come on the podcast. So Ben Kay, welcome to the Aftermath Podcast.

Thank you so much. It's really lovely to be here. Thank you for hunting me down. Thank you for—

well, you're a busy— you're a busy man. You're doing a lot of things. Doing a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah, it's really great to be here. Thank you.

Good, good, good. Well, I want to just read some things, um, instead of a bio from your website. So Ben K is a therapist. He has benktherapy.com. So a lot of you contact me and say, I can't find a therapist who understands chemsex. I can't find a therapist who understands my needs as a man who has sex with men. Well, here you are, Ben Kay. He's right here. I don't know if you can see clients. Can you see clients around the world, internationally, virtually?

I can do it. The ethical framework that I follow is based in, in the UK. So there are differences in time, as long as I'm following the ethical framework. It isn't an issue.

Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, good.

Well, you—

a therapist with this kind of background, especially lived experience, is so needed. So I'm really happy to feature you today on the podcast. Um, his approach since August 17th, he's been committed to personal development as he saw this time in his life as his second chance. He started studying on his own time and has always been a huge Has always been a huge box for him that he's never filled— qualifying as a person-centered therapist in 2022. Through his own development, he came to understand that however lost he might have felt, and while we all experience bumps in the road, with the right support, we each have the ability to achieve our goals. This principle has led him to continue his studies and his academic journey, which we may talk about today. Because you continue to go to school, continue to get certifications, as I, I follow you now on LinkedIn and watch all your comings and goings. Um, you're into so much. So thank you, thank you, thank you. It's so nice to have someone who's credentialed but also has that lived experience in this, in this field. Um, so glad to have you. If you could, let's start maybe with a little bit of your story, if you don't mind sharing, and just share with us what you think You know, how did you— what is your experience with chemsex?

Thank you so much. Whenever I hear about my own background, I have to sit here quietly and smile without cringing at the same time, even though they're the words from my own website. I'm like, right, I wrote it. And I'm like, okay. So yeah, yeah.

It's such a lovely picture of you on the bench too.

Thank you. Thank you. That was taken on the clifftop in Dorset where I used to live. I was there for 7 years actually, when I went to rehab in the south of the UK. And I was there from 2017 to 2024. So a year ago, I've been back in London a year. And that's when my recovery really kickstarted. And that was taken at one of my favorite spots overlooking the ocean. And yeah, a very happy smiley photo.

Yeah, I was gonna say it looks, it looks authentic. You know, it looks like you're not just cheesing for the camera. It does look like you're actually happy in that moment.

Yeah, genuinely my happy place. Really, really was. And the ocean always is. But you are. Yeah, it really is. And yeah, I'm far from the ocean now, but it's always, always here. But my experience with chemsex, straight to the point, I wouldn't be where I am today talking to you without all of the experiences that I had experienced. I call it now, and I joke, I say I've done enough market research to really, really talk about the subject matter. But more importantly, really understand my clients or potential clients or people, just generally people that reach out to me because the language is understood without having to explain it on their side in detail or really the industries involved in the scene as we know it. It's another world. So going into a space, a safe space, a therapeutic space where someone doesn't really genuinely understand the nuances and the jargon and the wording could be really a real barrier for those seeking support. I have found. So yeah, I started using crystal meth as a recreational drug in addition to my other alphabet of, you know, T was added to the G, to the H, to the B, to the L, to the K, to the C, all added into the alphabet soup, probably in around 2000 and Let's be realistic, about 2013, 2014. And it didn't bring me to my knees until, in the literal sense, brought me to my knees.

Right, literally, you were—

it definitely— literally, that happened quick, right? It definitely did. But in the metaphorical sense, until around about 2017.

Okay.

So it was, it was, it It was short-lived by some people's standards, but actually quite a long time in using the substance in its entirety. Actually, it was before then I started using it. I'm just thinking, I remember remembering the first time I started to use it was the early 2000s when it first started to come onto the scene in London. And it was mixed. I was using it with other substances. It was something that I used and I loved the high. And I really, really enjoyed the high. So mixing it together, it was pre- really pre the chemsex parties that really started, that really at the height of the chemsex kind of like it's this issue that the pandemic, the epidemic is whatever you want to call it in London. The height was in 2015, I would say back then is when it really, really started to kick off.

Okay.

And it was, it was, it was the perfect storm of the substances that were being used, the apps that were easily available, the sex that was on tap. I worked in the nightlife in London for about 20 years. So for me, in my, you know, see, in the first half of the first part of my life before I changed careers, I worked in the nightlife, was working in the city. So I worked hard and partied really hard at the same time. And these drugs were just taken recreationally. But when the perfect storm was created with the substances, the apps that were easy to use, the sex that was easy to find, the amazing lifestyle, the amazing party lifestyle that London had, It was just a brilliant combination. I call it— I refer to it now as a perfect storm because it all came together very easily and very nicely. And that's when I started to dip into the party scene, you know, the chemsex party scene in London.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's interesting to think about when did chillouts, you know, because they're called— they're mainly called chillouts in the UK. We don't call them that here. We just call them parties or PMP or whatever. But when did that become a thing? Like, what— when did we start? Did the apps bring that together, you think? Or was that happening before?

It was always happening. There was always parties happening after clubs. People are always partying after clubs. Chillouts used to happen. It's quite a European connotation, a European use of the word, people partying after the after hours, like the after hours.

Oh, okay.

It was the after-after. That's what— that's the best way to try and describe it. Everyone goes, okay, now I get it, now I get it. But then when these drugs started to come onto the scene, it changed the dynamic within most parties quite considerably. When it went from having a party like, you know, drinking alcohol, taking other substances, these drugs were introduced into the mix, which then added a whole different slant onto the sexual element of what was, um, going on. It enabled people to, you know, increase libido, lower inhibition, It became much, you know, they were hornier, that people wanted to have sex with more people. And in addition to some of the clubs in London, obviously a bit, you know, when people were realizing what these drugs were doing, people were going into clubs in London taking G, not really understanding what their doses were. In the UK, we use it, they're using GBL. Previously it was GHB before it, when it first landed in the early, you know, in the early teens, I would say, or thereabouts in No one really knew what their doses were. So all of a sudden, from an ecstasy-filled environment, people taking MDMA, those party drugs in the clubs, people were taking G and passing out. I mean, medic rooms in some of the London clubs were full of people just passing out on G. People didn't know how to take these substances safely. And then, of course, the clubs really quickly caught up. There's zero tolerance to these substances in the clubs.

Right.

But of course, you know, as a community, we'd caught on to that. These are good. These drugs are good. Like, they do what we want them to do. And it's just straight off the bat, people using these substances, we were asking, why do people use them to start with? Because it was fun.

Yeah.

It was fun. You know, people were having the sex they always wanted or felt they needed at the same time. It was just a fun thing to do. But then it pushed it out of the club scene into people's homes. And then when you've got the geosocial networking apps like Grindr and alike, if we're allowed to mention names in this, I don't know. But, you know, that's fine. Like Grindr, like Scruff, like other apps that people use, the hookup apps.

Yeah.

It became really easy to find like-minded people that were looking for the same that weren't essentially in the clubs. Again, that perfect storm. And then the drugs easily tipped over into people's homes, and then it really kickstarted. Again, not everyone was taking crystal and G. People were using G and not crystal. There was a lot of taboo around crystal in the UK for quite some time, and it still really surprises me that it isn't more popular on the scene here in London than it is in other cities. That really shocks me still. I'm like, I hear Cities in America, and I hear of cities across the world. I'm like, we are not—we're not there yet. Yeah, yeah. Really, it's not being disclosed, but it really pushed from the clubs into people's homes. Yeah, yeah.

You know what my my theory on that is? And I'm no one, you know. This is just the world according to Dallas. But because because in London you have methadone, to me I feel like the addition of the methadone. doesn't require— it kind of pushes out the need for G for some reason. I— because that's the biggest difference between the two. If you look at— for me, when I speak to my European guys and my U.S. guys, like, you guys in the U.S. have never heard of mephedrone. They have no idea, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then the guys in the UK, they, you know, a lot of them start out with mephedrone or they supplement with it or, or that's what they're addicted to. Um, but you're right, I don't hear them talk about G much. I mean, not that G and mephedrone give the same effects, but I do think that it somehow supplements or replaces it in some way. I don't know.

What is happening, and I like hearing other people's thoughts and thought patterns. What I'm hearing, because I haven't taken these substances since 2017, by the grace of all the gods. As I always say, there isn't just one because I needed all of them to help me. I needed all of them to help me get me out of where I was. All jokes aside. People are taking methadone and G here in London as opposed to crystal meth and G. So there's a crossover, I would say, between T and methadone. Methadone was a legal high. We could buy it over the counter when it first came into London. It was ridiculously cheap, like £10 for a gram. And I know that sounds quite expensive to what crystal is costing now for people in the States, but now it's more expensive, it's more synthesized. It's it's different. It's a very different substance. It's been reclassified here in the UK, but there is a real there's an element of taboo around crystal. People don't talk about it, but people are using it, and for me, talking about it is really important because it then reduces the shame associated with it.

Yes, agree, agree. So you mentioned all the gods were. required to pull you out. So what was your, what was your, the point when you, when you did get out? Like, what was the catalyst for that?

So just like, yeah, context really. And I often share this. I came from, I had a very privileged background and I, and I don't always talk about it, but I think it's important for everyone to understand that when they use these substances, there isn't one note, isn't one type of person who just becomes addicted to substances. And I, you know, I had a traumatic event through my— from my parents got divorced in my teenage years and life changed for me considerably at the age of 15. That's when I started to use drugs. So I used substances from the age of 15 years old to the age of 37. So that's a long time. And I didn't— I didn't— yeah, the only things, twists and turns along the way. And, you know, I'm not going to share my whole story right now, but it's just to give you some context as to Um, how low it got for me. I worked in, in the city in London. I was successful in the property industry. Um, wasn't happy doing what I was doing, but I just did it anyway because it was what I did at the age of 15 when I went to work to support my, my mother. And that's when my academic journey stopped at the age of 15, which is why going back to do it now, that we may touch on a little bit later, is so important for me because it was something I wasn't ever able to do. And that's something I used on a lot, uh, not being able to really fulfill what I wanted to do and live my true authentic self. So when these drugs— my first, one of the first drugs I ever took was, was speed, base, we call it here in the UK. Yeah, I— it was, it was love at first lick. Um, genuinely, and I was like, oh, that's quite special. And then when crystal came on the scene and I, and I, and I did that, and the first time I had it Even though it was mixed with the other drugs, I was like, oh, this is this this this has hit this has hit a sweet spot here that no other drug is able to touch. At the time, I didn't know enough about it, what it was doing to my body, to my mind, and to everything else. So you asked what the catalyst was. I basically my rock bottom, and I I can't emphasize other people's everyone's rock bottom is different. Mine is different to yours, was different to the next person, but the feelings associated with it, I would say, are all more or less the same. Helplessness, hopelessness, you know, you're not able to navigate anything in your life. And for me, I'd lost my— I'd finished— my mother had passed away. I'd had— I call it a tsunami of personal circumstances, a very British, politically correct way of saying everything happened at the same time. Yeah. Emotionally, so I, you know, I'd finished a long-term relationship. My mother had passed away. I'd had major stomach surgery. I'd lost my job. I was, you know, I was involved in a business transaction that just kind of completely fell by the wayside. So there was, you know, 5 or 6 really life-changing things that happened at the same time. In addition to the fact that I'd never really dealt with all that trauma that happened in my childhood. So all of this stuff was just compounded all the time consistently throughout my life. And I'd used drugs all of those years. So let's just take that into the mix and say, you know, we can't, we can't not count that, of course. But also I'd started to use crystal quite heavily because that was the, is the one drug I will find that I found that will always find its way into any crack or any crevice that you've got.

Yep.

And will pretend to be your friend. And it's there to destroy you. And I say that quite— I can't say for you people, the listeners. For me, I felt this is how I have to look at it. Like, it's a very dark, dangerous drug that has the ability to contort and change the way that we think and feel quite easily.

Yes.

And I'd started using it in a way that I never thought I would. I was intravenously using crystal. And I remember the first time Someone slammed me into the. I was injected with crystal, and I don't often talk about my story as much. I think it's important for this for this podcast. Yeah. And I and I love and and I loved it. I loved it. Like it did everything they said it would do and more. Right. And I remember leaving a party. It was a very small chill out, about three people there. Yeah. my pipe had broken and the guy said, oh, that's fine, we're slamming anyway. And I'm a nurse. I mean, I didn't—

Oh yeah.

Very handy. Like, he was— I was like, he's a nurse, like, he's got a tourniquet, he's a professional, therefore he can slam me if he wants to. I was like, yeah, that's fine. And it was the most insane experience because I remember leaving there Then going to hang out with someone I'd been chatting with for quite some time for another day or two or whatever I was doing at the time. And then I came home and I think I cried and slept for 3 days realizing that the one thing, all those never gonna dos.

That's right.

I was doing them.

That's right.

And I was really going for it for my first time. And it was something that I regretted. It's one of the biggest regrets I ever had was actually that I did, I did, I, you know, I did that to myself and had that— not that I did it to myself, that level of lack of self-care and self-love, really.

Yeah.

Because that makes me feel sad when I reflect, but it catalyzed my recovery journey. In addition to that, I'd really involved myself in situations that weren't safe for me. And I had choices, Dallas. It was either continue on this path and/or die.

Mm-hmm.

And that was it.

Yeah.

Continue on the path using, doing what I'm doing, and/or die, and/or be killed, and/or kill myself, or any of the things that you feel could be the rock bottom. And I, I just, I just, I just knew that I was worth more than that existence. From someone who was promoting parties in central London, doing, you know, arranging club nights, having a successful property career, had my own car, had my own house, and all the materialistic things, had a lovely circle of friends, had a loving partner. I'd already been married in my early 20s. I'd have— I'd had the— Mm-hmm. The idyllic lifestyle on the out— I call it the Wisteria Lane lifestyle. Yeah, the Wisteria Lane lifestyle. Yeah, yeah. Spontaneously combusted. It just burst on the inside out. And whether or not it was triggered by trauma or, and/or addiction and/or both, because I always say that I used on trauma. I can't really relate an addiction to childhood. And I've really picked that apart actually through my recovery journey. I don't really I liken it to childhood trauma. I mean, as opposed to like hugely traumatic events in the change, you know, that's what I liken it to. Trauma actually is a childhood, not just like addiction in childhood. Some people say I was addicted from as old as, as young as I can remember, but that isn't really my choice and my truth. And I remember having to get the help that I needed. And because I was state-funded at the time, I was on benefits after going from that Lovely house and all that. I was on benefits and I was about, you know, going from paycheck to paycheck, paycheck to paycheck, hoping to pay for my rent, of which that was now in arrears. And it was literally like, you know, you're going to be homeless, street homeless, unless, you know, my old family friends stood in and took me away, took me out of that situation. And my family members were mortified, but some amazing sister helped me and it was amazing. I had to go through the front door of a drug and alcohol service within my local borough. But at that time, they didn't know what crystal meth and GBL was. And that was probably, say, one of the heights of the chemsex scene in South London. And because their chemsex lead was on paternity leave, the rest of the service didn't really understand what the drugs were or what the support was needed. So I was on like a loop and only the first 4 people were seen in the service. And I'm pointing that way because it's literally down the road. I've come back to London and it's like, there, which is nuts for me. Um, yeah, only the first 4 people are seen every day. And I remember getting there and I was, I was on Tina time. I was like thinking I'm gonna be on time, I'm gonna get there. I, I missed every— I get there at like midday going, hey, I'm here for help. Dude, the clinic closed like 3 hours ago. I went home again and I kept coming back and I actually, I left, I left a chill out Actually, not funny.

Oh no. And I laughed.

I left the chill out, and I remember I thought to myself, I've got to do it. I've got to do it. Yeah. I've got to. So I bought a packet of cigarettes, and I you know bought a drink, and I sat on the wall opposite opposite the clinic, sat with my sunglasses on like I don't know. Yeah. Silly silly o'clock in the morning waiting for the clinic to open, and I got seen, and I was assessed, and that's when the my recovery journey started. I mean.

Okay.

Prior to that, I was already seeking therapy for other things, and I remember an amazing female, cisgender female therapist, and it was before I'd even heard of really chemsex. It was in the early 2000s when she— I disclosed what I was doing. I was using these drugs. She pulled out a leaflet and she's like, have you heard of chemsex before? So it was all very much on my radar, but it wasn't labeled as such then. There wasn't— it wasn't, um, until David Stewart rest his lovely soul, burst onto the scene. It was just drugs and sex and parties and fun. But yeah, that was my kind of like landing into recovery and what catalyzed it. So it's pretty long-winded, but there was quite a lot to say.

No, no, I love it. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing. Some things that you said is that everybody's rock bottom is different. So I just want to say, if you're listening, you don't have to wait until you're homeless to hit your rock bottom.

Absolutely not.

Um, your rock— just like Ben said, there are— everybody's rock bottom is different, but the emotions tied to it are the same. Helplessness, hopelessness, difficulty managing your life, right? You can get to that point without losing it all. It's just a matter of deciding like this is it for me, right? And ask yourself, do you feel hopeless? Do you feel helpless? Are you having trouble navigating your life, right? And you even have questions, I think, on your website about— let me try to find it again. But it's, you know, if you answer yes to any of these questions, you need it. You know, you have chemsex trouble. Chemsex issues.

Um, I can't— you might do— you might want to think about— yeah, I thought— yeah, yeah, yeah, like a starter for 10, because some people approach me over the years and say, I don't think I've got a problem. That's cool. If you don't think you've got a problem, that's great. But here's some— just ask yourself rhetorically, ask yourself these questions. Have you got them? Yeah, yeah, ask it rhetorically.

Um, yeah, yeah. So here they are. It may be time to make some changes if the chems are starting to harm your mental or physical health, your work or relationships are starting to suffer, you're taking bigger risks when you're high, you're starting to take chems more often, feelings of anxiety and shame after using, right? So if you are using and some of these are slipping into your life, Then you don't have to wait till you lose it all. It's time to get help now, right? You see, like, it's the— it's like the first time you call out of work because the weekend lasted too long, the chill out bled into your workday, then that, that is going to be a sign that you're slipping, right? To me, because that— the first time I called out of work, the guy I was with, he was like, this is the first sign you're, you're, you're going to— you're going too far. You know, this guy that I just chilled out, chilled with for 24 or 48 hours, he was like, You just caught out of work. That means you're on your way down with me because he was, you know, unemployed from the same thing. But you know, your work and relationships are suffering. You're taking bigger risks. So the bigger risks I want to talk about for a second because you mentioned when you slammed, which interesting enough, the first person I did was with the nurse too. But the never going to do, right? Like. In, in the chemsex world, we're always searching that next level of dopamine. And what we say we're never going to do, we always end up doing, whatever that is. And, you know, there's some people that come to me and they've— they're only using like every 3 months or something. And it's been over a series of a long, maybe a decade. And they think they have it handled, but there's always something in there that you say you're never going to do and you do. So maybe you only use 3 months, but you look at— something on Zoom that you said you would never look at, or you use for a whole week and you say you would never use over a weekend. I mean, I see this all the time. When you start doing things that you say you're never going to do, it starts this landslide, this, this like snowball effect of you're going to find out, okay, now that I've done this, what else can I do that can get me even higher dopamine levels? Would you agree with that?

Yeah. Completely. It's all they're never going to do, or we say not yet, as we call them. Not yet, not yet. Haven't done it yet. And it's just asking yourself, is the progression of using and the way that you're using, are we keeping yourself safe? And how I've kind of packaged it for myself is the lack of self-care and self-love. I'm not talking about anything else other than just self-care and self-love. Like, would you really, if we all gave ourselves time to stop, if I gave myself time to stop and really think about what I was doing back then, Yeah. Would I have done half of the things that I did?

Right.

Probably not. But the reality is I was chasing the high and the escapism associated with these substances. But never going to do— anyone that has used or uses habitually or uses chaotically or uses erratically, all the words you want to add to it, we've all been there. You're not alone. And I, 7 years, 8 years this August into my recovery journey from crystal meth and G, it's very important for me to reflect on my— what brought me here, because I can often, you know, I, I never— I genuinely never forget. I never ever forget. And how you started that conversation about the Attitude Award, which I'm very grateful to have been able to be recognized for the work that I've done to contribute towards those using chems, simply started And was created on the back end of me trying to access help the way I needed it, and no one understanding what the substances were. So when I went to treatment in 2017, that was really interesting. When I left, I connected with a local drug and alcohol service that is actually a national charity, but they're local local providers, and I asked if they had an LGBTQ+ recovery group. They didn't. But the person that I met when I walked through the front door, um, he said, would you like, you know, would you like to train as a volunteer? And we can, you know, get you through different advocacy training programs and you could create your own LGBTQ recovery group. And that's how I'm like, how it started.

Mm-hmm.

And on the back end of that, it's, uh, evolved over, you know, 7 years. And I, I created a very, very special working relationship with the sexual health service across Dorset, which was the region, not the, the county that I living in and created a drop-in clinic for those people that were using chems because it just didn't exist. And I was mind-blown that a drug and alcohol service didn't understand how to support people that were using these substances. Right. And it feeds into not having to be at rock bottom because I really had to think laterally and like, people that are using these substances before they get, before they are on their knees, literally, not metaphorically this time, but literally on their knees, not in a good way, Right, right. There's lots of people that are using these substances that are professionals that just are like, I may be using these substances too much, or I've had a really heavy weekend and I'm going to have a shot of G before I go to work to make myself feel better. When we know that isn't good, we know that isn't right, and that doesn't feel correct, but how do I stop? But without people understanding how to support people, we're going to be caught in this cycle of shame and guilt and All of the words that we don't want to have associated with these substances. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you're talking about the barrier— you mentioned barriers to support and that no one, you know, no one— the, the only person that you said at that treatment center who understood chemsex was out on maternity leave.

It was a drug and alcohol service. It wasn't a treatment center. It was like each borough, each county will have a drug and alcohol service, which is fine. It works differently here. It works in a different mindset. He was on paternity leave. Yeah, he was an awesome guy. Amazing. I've met him, I've met him since in a professional capacity, and we've done work together, right? I was mind-blown that my key worker at the time, I had to explain to them what crystal methamphetamine was. And I also think back, like, the people that I've supported over the years, if they had to really explain to me what those drugs were, I don't think they'd have come back.

Yeah, yeah, right.

So something in me, that driving force within me at the time, was like, I need, I need to do this or I'm going to die.

Yes. Yeah, right, right. Because it's kind of what we were saying earlier about a, a psychotherapist who has background in chemsex. Like, even if you go to a therapist who doesn't understand the jargon or doesn't understand— like you said, it's another world— doesn't understand what happens in that world, you're already You're already kind of ashamed, you know, you have stigma around using meth. And then you have to go and say, you know, with your head down, like how many people you slept with and the things that you did, you know, and like you have to go back and explain these things. And a lot of times people who haven't been exposed to any of that are in shock. Even a therapist, you know, can act kind of shocked about and not know how to be trauma-informed to deal with somebody because of their own biases, probably, and their own lack of experience. So, um, I, I do think, yes, what, what you saw was a big lack of understanding in the system. And so what you've decided to do was fix that, or try to fix that, haven't you?

I, I— taking on an entity like the system, like, in any— it's— for me, this is not a— chemsex is not a phrase that can be coined by one person. It's a phrase that all professionals, in my opinion, need to come together to work cohesively to help drive change. Of course, when it was new and it was sexy and it was brand new, you know, it was new drugs and new— and everyone, people were like, oh, this is— I'm going to lead on this. I'm going to do all of these things. And if it wasn't for the pioneers way before I, you know, came along professionally, we wouldn't be where we are today. But for me, it was about recognizing the regional issues associated with these substances and the lack of support offered in these spaces. And that was what really drove me to continually drive the change in the area that I was living because it hadn't been done before. And what I did, and I always say this, I didn't rewrite the Bible. I didn't reinvent the wheel. I simply looked at what was working in other spaces. And I spoke to David Stewart a lot at the time. And he was like, do you think this is cool? What do you think? And I was asking him, do you think this is great? and taking it a little bit, move, move, moving things on a little bit. Um, and, and another, another amazing professionals like Charities London, like London Friend, and other people that I really admire, and saying, is this going to work? Because it, you know, it doesn't always— essentially it's not exactly the same, but just slight tweaks and changes. And I use the word tweak, sorry to use it on this podcast, but I tweak— I didn't— no pun intended— I tweaked the model.

Right.

Um, so it landed better for the people I was looking to support. And by doing that, it just allowed people to seek the support the way they wanted it, not what we were offering, because one size does not fit all when it comes to support for these substances at all.

No, no, no, not at all. I agree. I agree there for sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, cause I feel like if you don't have, if you don't have support, if you don't have understanding, if you don't have a drop-in clinic, Like, like you've talked about, then most of these guys do have to wait till they hit the rock bottom to get any help because they have nowhere else to turn, right? Yeah. So, so you created— so I guess you created some LGBTQ groups then, and you created— you create— what else have you created? Did you— you created this, uh, what, We Are With You?

Yeah, that was a charity that I was at for 7 years, nearly 8 years working for We Are With You. Started off as a volunteer where— that's the charity I walked through the front door of in Bournemouth. And when I moved to London a year ago, I transferred to their London service. But whilst I was there, what was important for me is because I— when you talk about the system, I quickly realized that unless commissioners who actually fund the services that I mentioned in the areas— like I'm now in Lambeth or in Dorset or other places— unless the commissioners say we're going to earmark some money or we're going to ring-fence some cash to specifically support those working involved in chems, it's not going to essentially happen unless the service is aware of these substances. And can you, you know, what I tried to do was say, guys, this is a stimulant and a central nervous system depressant. Let's not get carried away around what we need to deliver. Yes, there are nuances associated with that and the language associated with that, but you know how to do this and you know how to support people. Don't be scared. So I delivered training across the service that was really important. So across all of the service, criminal justice services, um, rolled out a training program across the southwest of the UK, which was across Dorset, Somerset, Wales. Um, it was really well received, in line with the Metropolitan Police and what they offer at Project Sagamore, which is a chemsex and crime relating group. I offered training on their behalf and also to deliver training with Project Sagamore to really raise awareness of these substances and people that need to get across preparation services and the like. But one of the things that was very successful was We Are With You had a web chat facility.

Yeah.

What that is, and you have to be UK-based, so I'm really, really sorry if those people are listening to this, they're not based in the UK because that's just how the funding works. Because, you know, the UK likes to really lean on funding. If they drop in, they chat to a trained recovery worker who are all specifically, you know, chems savvy or chems aware. And they can— it's anonymous, it's confidential, from 9 o'clock in the morning till 9 o'clock at night and 10 in the morning until 4 at the weekend. And they could just talk about their substances. It could, you know, you could be, you could be a high-flying professional and still using, or you could be, you know, in a different situation and still using. or just use for the first time and/or want to go to a chemsex party and ask advice how to use safely. Harm minimization advice, harm reduction advice, really important. And this was— this landed really well because we saw an uptake of people that were landing onto the web chat that were using these substances. It was firstly started as an LGBTQ web chat facility, and then chems slowly— Mm-hmm. Became more chem-specific because LGBT was kind of embedded within the, the fabric of that web chat. What, you know, why shouldn't it be? Um, and I also launched a pilot in 2 areas of the country that were linked to the web chat, and it was called a chems NSP direct-to-home pilot. And that was a chems needle syringe program. Uh, people were If people were in Dorset or Liverpool, 2 areas in London that— in the UK rather— that really liked the idea of where I was working, and somewhere in Liverpool that had a real, you know, they wanted to really drive chems, uh, people could land onto the web chat if they were in specific postcodes. They could ask for clean injecting equipment and we would send it to them directly to their home without them having to come into service.

Wow.

And before I left the charity, that was rolled out to each of the 80 services across the organization.

So, wow. Yeah, you are busy. Wow.

I, I couldn't, I couldn't have done this without the support of my colleagues, obviously. So I had the— I, I, I'm very grateful that you— to have been able to do that. But for me, it was taking a step back, looking at where the gaps were, and just, yeah, again, not reinventing the wheel, not rewriting the Bible, just literally saying, yeah, we need to train these people. people, this, you already do this, let's add Kemet, let's see how it lands. And yeah, I'm very grateful for the opportunity.

Wow, love that. What a difference you've made.

Thank you. I'd like to, um, like to think so. With my colleagues as well, like with my colleagues, you know, with the marketing teams, with the executive directors, the buy-in that you need. The organization had like over 1,500 people, so it's not just Ben. I needed buy-in, and the buy-in takes, the buy-in takes a lot of time organizationally. And you know, it was very— it's a great legacy to have been able to, to leave that organization and to have done that and to be part of something really special that I would always really, really cherish. And I wouldn't have been able to do that without the lived experience. And then the enhanced— the academic side as well is, you know, it's something I'm doing. But the lived experience, I've said, guys, this doesn't, this doesn't work. Like, no one's going to do that. You can't just put a rainbow flag on something and hope people are going to walk through the front door. That's what happens, right? People do that.

You're right, right. Especially this month, Pride Month. Not everyone this year. No, no, that's right. That's right. Um, you know, I was thinking about reflecting on what you were saying. The, the We Support You is what it's called. The— you call it— is that the name of it? The charity? We Are With You. We Are With You. We Are With You. The website. Yeah. So what, what I see in this epidemic is that these, a lot of these men just need to feel seen and heard. And, you know, because they're, we're isolated in this underworld, you know, and we're hiding in it. We're hiding from our own community, you know, because we are stigmatized more, what I can see, a lot of times in the queer community than we are outside of that. Um, you know, labeled certain names and called dirty and kind of left out of things. And, you know, I've seen it here, um, recently in some type of, I don't know, Pride parade or something, but 2 of the past Pride queens— I don't know, I don't— I'm not a drag queen person— but we're not allowed to participate. We're not allowed to be on this float because they were known meth users. Right. And so I, I feel like These guys a lot of times are more apt to come out of it if they are somehow felt, seen, and heard. And so being able to call someone and that in a nonjudgmental, objective way to just talk is something that I feel like would be so healing to have. And so we don't have that, anything like that that I know of in the US. I know of something like that in Canada. Um, that I'll have on the podcast soon. It's a, it's a group that they meet, uh, they meet by Zoom. But so if you're listening to this and you're in the US and you don't have anything like that, I would just substitute it with, who can I speak to? Like, even if it's going to a CMA meeting or somebody who's kind of been through it and just speak your story, speak your needs, be seen, be heard, and know that you're not alone. Feel connection.

Yeah.

Right. It's that whole thing of the opposite of addiction is connection, right? But it really is in terms of when you feel that, when you start to feel less isolated and less stigmatized and less alone and feel seen, there's a lot of that that will heal you enough to sometimes take the next step out, in my opinion.

I agree. It's about connecting to the right people and it's very regional though. I know some people may be listening to this and saying, actually, oh, I don't know where to go. Isn't available for me like this. Lots of the support in the US is privately funded. It's very difficult to get the help that you need, but with online support, you are able to reach out to fellowship meetings, Crystal Meth Anonymous. Put the God thing out of your head if it isn't your thing. Don't let that thing interfere. Like, get over it. Get over it. Like, it's about talking to other people. I mean, we'll use that as an excuse. We all did, and we all have, and you know everyone will. Push it to one side because you will find your connection with people that you meet, like-minded people that will tell your story. And the fascinating thing is how it's moved for me, how the scene has moved, was when that video was posted for Attitude, um, I, I spoke about supporting the LGBTQ community involved in chems. And as the comments have gone on, there's some really lovely comments, and there's some people— there are some trolls which make me smile, uh, and, and there are some comments that really shouldn't be there, but that So it makes me smile too, right? It's moved on, and it isn't just LGBTQ. The LGBTQ community don't essentially all use chems, and it definitely isn't completely isolated or exclusive to the LGBTQ community.

Right.

An amazing piece of work that I'm involved in, um, was— I've mentioned Project Sagamore, and it's supporting— and it's understanding that there's large amounts of MSN, men who have sex with men, who use chems, crystal meth, GHB, GBL, and/or mephedrone in London. And there are, you know, hundreds of men on a chemsex-related charge in central London prisons that don't essentially identify as being gay. So, right, there is a real crossover with these substances now that we're seeing that we didn't see when it first landed, or we weren't so aware of here in the UK. Right. Now we're much more aware of it, and the criminality associated with these substances is really kind of taken off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always think that that has something to do, you know, I mean, studies show that the part of the brain that, you know, that we use for empathy shrinks, you know, when we're on meth, our ability to feel empathy shrinks. And so that I think that contributes somewhat to this rising crime. Around it. And it's deadly crime though, you know. I mean, you've seen it a lot in the UK in terms of using, using a mixture of Grindr and G to, to trap people, to murder people, you know. It's happening over here as well. So I'm glad that you, that you mentioned that. But I, I would love to do a podcast that provides a resource for men who have sex with men who who are confused about, you know, maybe they don't identify as gay or even bi. Um, I talk to these men a lot who, they, they use Tina, they use meth, and that's the only time they're interested in men. As if men's kind of, you know, being with a man is like a fetish for them, just like fisting or feet, you know, or something like that. It's like a fetish for them. Then when they're off and they're not on it, they're confused about their sexuality. And, you know, what do I do about that? And then I have wives contacting me saying, is my husband gay? Because he slept with men, you know, it's like, I don't see a lot of resources out there for men that fall in that category who need support, because they're also, they're also kind of traumatized by this and also wrapped up in shame of admitting that, you know, of admitting that they— You know, a lot of them have trouble admitting that they've slept with men.

Currently, the only thing I can ever just mention, or that I'm aware of, is the anonymity of a web chat facility. Again, not essentially We're With You. There's other charities that offer this too. Coincidentally, I just supported the launch of that one specifically. Okay, I, I've left the organization. I'm allowed to talk about them. That's fine. But it's the anonymity of actually dropping in Yeah. And having those conversations. But then you have to really question, you know, it's completely anonymous, it's confidential. You don't even need to give a real name. You can give a pseudonym to these people, uh, recovery workers. When you connect, it's just all typed, it's online, it's easy. But it's, would someone want to discuss it when they're sober? It's these questions that I'm hearing. And I remember the first time I was working with someone who was on probation And identified as heterosexual. Um, had been, you know, obviously been to prison. He was on probation and he was using these drugs and, you know, had a girlfriend, had kids, very, you know, alpha male, macho.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. And I was invited to go to probation services because I delivered some chemsex training to them and they said, we really would like you to come and just talk to this Talk to this client, please. And I did. And I immediately connected to him in a way that he hadn't been spoken to before and just said, I get it. Let's have this conversation. Let's just begin to unravel the shame or at least begin to shine some light on the shame. Let's talk about it because there is no shame in it.

Right.

Let's have a conversation. And Yeah. It was mind-blowing for— it was a real privilege. And I say that hand on heart, like a real privilege to be able to really hold space for that person and to allow that person to kind of unfold in a way they hadn't unfolded before for the time that we were together. And, you know, kind of connecting back, circling back to what you've mentioned about having a therapist that can really identify with these issues, there are many therapists that can hold space for people. And I don't doubt that for a second. Like, there's really well-trained therapists in lots of different modalities that can hold space. Just a few words of that knowing and understanding is what that client needed at the time. And I was able to then work with other MSM people and their associates in a way that I was, again, felt extremely privileged to do so.

Wow.

When we talk about services being available, I think the existing services need to level up.

Yes.

And have the training, the understanding, the knowledge available. So when someone lands, like, I wanted notification across all of the service when I was there. Anyone who was using crystalogy as a primary and secondary substance, Yeah. When they did their assessment, I wanted to know them. Who are they? And oh, they've identified as heterosexual. I'm like, I'm not interested in how they identify on a form. Like, I need— let's do some digging. And when we were able to really connect with them, and I, I trained some amazing cisgender female co-workers and other, other, you know, heterosexual key workers, because not every gay guy, not every guy using Crystalogy wanted to work with a gay man either. That's not— they didn't want to do that. So again, it's about servicing is leveling up and really saying, we hear this is an issue, we know this is a problem, let's make sure we can deal with whatever walks through the front door and it isn't just a tokenistic suggested contribution to service.

That's right. Yeah. So what's in your sights now? What projects do you have going on? And what are you— because I know you can't be idle. I know you're not done.

I'm, I'm not. I'm definitely not done. I took a little, um, uh, I took like a little time in between leaving with you when I start my new job on the 1st of July, which will be for another national drug and alcohol charity in the UK. Okay. Specifically focused on LGBTQIA+ substance misuse and support. Okay. And helping them create and write their own pathway into service for a London borough. So I'm very excited to get started with that the 1st of July.

Great.

Um, I've just finished the first year of my psychology master's, um, and I'm about to start my, my second year will be in September, October this year, which is really exciting. And I'm just really kind of— my private practice is really exciting. It's small, um, because it's in line with my, the, the, the, the BACP framework that I follow and my accreditation that I'm getting this year. And I, I actually also have done a a podcast. This is not a plug for that, but yeah, that's right, you do have a podcast. I didn't mention that. Hopefully we're gonna— I'm gonna do that, a second season of that, towards the end of the year. But it's just really— I took a breather in order to kind of like start again. So it's been a very— finishing my master's was very important for me, and being able to finish my education is something I never thought I would do. And after I qualified as a psych— you know, a therapist in 2022, I got a humanistic counseling degree. People go, what's that? It's very psychodynamic, Freudian, Carl Jung.

Okay.

Very— I love that. Yeah. And my psychology master's is an amazing master's to do because I'm looking at either the, you know, potentially in the future there's 2 courses. There's a psychosexual and relationship diploma that I'm very keen on exploring, and there's also a clinical or counseling psychology doctorate. that I'm so keen on looking at. But there's, you know, I've just reeled off another 5 years of study there like that when I've been studying for 8 years already. But I think— I don't think I'm going to stop. But it's just, yeah, I just want to continue to change— challenge the system and, yeah, where I can, and offer, offer support to services who really would like to, you know, support the community that needs it. probably one of the, the, the most underserved communities in the UK, because I really feel that the issue— we haven't even tapped into it. Because one of the things that I did in the past was I launched a, um, I actually did a— held a Chemsex masterclass for all of the drug and alcohol commissioners and sexual health and HIV commissioners in the UK. And it was over 250 commissioners, and the commissioners, they hold the funding funding pots for each of the councils in, in London, and over 50% of those didn't know what chemsex was.

Wow.

That was shocking. So without them knowing what that is, how are they going to offer money to the councils to offer support? So that's— yeah, I know, that blew my mind. I was like, what? But they did after— they did after the masterclass. It wasn't just me. I brought together some amazing professionals from up and down the country to deliver this to the commissioners. My sites are continuing to continue to support the amazing professionals that work in this space and just add my own value where I can, hopefully, and help people. That's my sites— help as many people who need it and raise awareness.

Yeah, sounds like you are. Sounds like you are. We need you. Do you do anything in the US?

Not yet.

No, that's a good— that's a positive not yet.

That's a positive not yet. I thought I'd use that not yet. Yeah, who knows where the future will— where it will take me. And I think we just need to continue to blow the lid on the taboo that is chems and chemsex, right? Because it isn't a taboo.

Yeah, right, right. It isn't, right? Exactly, exactly right. Wow, a lot, and a lot that I didn't get to ask you about, but we are almost out of time and I don't want people to get— you know, you get an hour is pushing For the podcast. Yeah, I know. Sorry. No, no, no, it's fine. It was really, really interesting. What was the name of your podcast, by the way? I want to make sure we—

Oh, it's called Really Queer.

Oh, okay. Really Queer. Thank you. Yeah. Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you're looking for a podcast, and if you want to use your time wisely and listen to a podcast instead of scrolling on social media, that's what I suggest you do. Really Queer with Ben Kay. And you have a partner in that podcast, I think.

My co-host, Sylvan Nevis, who's an amazing psychosexual therapist. Really nice. Written books and articles and published, really, really accredited. So yeah, really definitely worth it. And what it does is it talks about the— we have conversations around issues that are very often not spoken about. So check it out if you get a chance.

Oh good, I love that. Well, okay, was there anything that I didn't ask today that you wish I had asked? Anything we didn't go over that you thought that I should or would, would add to the value of the discussion?

I just— we— as I'm stuttering to get the words out, I, I, I, I would— all I would probably say is like, we can talk about achievements and things that I've achieved and things that have been done, and it all looks shiny and great, but you know, there's a lot of hard work that goes in behind that. And it's, um, for anyone like you, Dallas, like literally we're not here today— we, we laugh and we joke and we have a giggle and we— this has taken— this is a commitment to ourselves. And not in any way egotistical or in any way say, look what we can do. It's, you know, it isn't about— it isn't about— for me, it's not about that. And I don't— it's not about that. It's simply about you can do this too. Like, anyone can just get the help if you need it. And, you know, we're talking from— I'm talking from the heart because hopefully it will connect to your hearts and things that, you know, will allow you to really You know, give yourself the love in order to kind of make the changes that you feel you might need to make. Right, right.

Yeah, I mean, the same as you, I went, I went through a treatment center that didn't, and a drug court that had no idea how to help me, right? If I had had, if I, I take myself back, August will be 7 years for me. You said 8 years for you, right? In August, yeah. Yeah, if I take myself back 7 years, if I'd have had Anything like a podcast or somebody on social media, anything that could have helped me feel a little more connected. You know, the resources that we have now are so helpful, but I'm just happy to add something to the mix. And like you said, even if it just creates awareness that the problem's out there, you know, so yes, I agree. And I appreciate what you're doing. And like you said, it is hard work, um, but it's— we're building momentum. I see it. I see it in the news. I see it in, uh, articles. I have somebody from Out magazine coming on the show, um, soon who wrote an article about chemsex. So it's, it's gaining some momentum and some awareness, and I'm just— I'm really happy to see that.

I want to say thank you to you for inviting me on to the podcast. It's a real privilege to be here with you. Thank you for all the work you do.

Thank you. Thank you for all you're doing. And I'm gonna— and thank you for, for coming on. And, um, I'm going to continue to, to watch you. And by the way, if you have any papers that you, that you publish while you're in, while you're in your master's program or doctorate program, I'd love to read them if you want to, if you could pass them on.

Thank you very much.

I love— I get into that stuff for some reason. So, okay, thank you so much again. We appreciate you. And if you're listening, Please join in the conversation. You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, send us a DM, or you can look up Ben K. We're going to put all Ben's information into the show notes. Go and watch him because he's doing some miraculous things. All right, see you next week.