EP 2:21 Multiple Minority Stress with Gustavo

I think with— in my case, it's important to highlight the word multiple and put multiple in front of multiple minority stress because there was a lot of intersections that I found myself at, whether it was brown, Venezuelan, undocumented, neurospicy. And what else was it? Have you heard that term before?

I have not heard neurospicy. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is Plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Hey, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm glad you're here, very grateful you're here. Thank you for the new listeners. I see you. I can— I get a little report of new listeners and, and past listeners, current listeners, ongoing listeners. Um, we are growing and continue to grow, and I'm really excited to see that. Very excited to see that. And if you want to help it grow, please like and rate the, uh, rate and review the podcast. Also share it with as many people as you can. You can share it on your story, um, if you feel comfortable doing that. I would like more people to get this in their hands. Um, and I am now Hitting— I'm beating the street and getting out there talking to local physicians, therapists, and also treatment centers and letting them know about the podcast. So it's actually beginning to, to really take hold. And I'm really proud to see that. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide that comes with every episode. The link will be in the show notes. Or if you'd like to get that study guide sent directly to your email by me, You can go to drdallasbragg.com and subscribe to my blog. And it comes out, it's posted there. All the study guides are posted on my blog in the form of a newsletter, but they'll be online. And you can really dig into the topic because I provide journal prompts, reflective questions, and an actionable exercise that you can actually then integrate the learning. So there's a lot of free resources you can get through following me. Please take advantage. We do have a Facebook community that goes along with the podcast. It's the Aftermath Podcast Facebook community. Just go. If, if you have trouble finding it on Facebook, um, because aftermath is such a weird word for the SEO engines, just send me a DM and I'll get you the link, or the link is in the show notes. We do have a YouTube account if you want to watch the podcast. You can watch it, the Aftermath Podcast, surprise, surprise, is what it's called, um, on YouTube. Um, that is it. That is our, our housekeeping. Let's get to the subject. Today we're talking about minority stress and whatever else comes up in this discussion. I've mentioned on the podcast before that I really— I'm making a strong effort to get more people of color on the show to get a more diverse look at crystal meth. And, you know, as I said— Gustavo just put his peace sign up. As I said, that I, I've been getting feedback on social media that this is a white man's drug. And, um, I know for a fact that I used with plenty of Black men and brown men, um, and Asian men, actually, all around the world. You know, I've used with all sorts of races when I was using. And, um, so I, I don't know where that's coming from, but I, I also don't want people to look at the podcast and say, oh, this is only for white people, um, because it is not, right? And so, um, I'm, I'm proud to say that we've, we've added some and we're still adding more. If you are a person of color or a trans person, I would really like you to think about coming on the podcast and sharing your story and your unique point of view because it is needed. There are plenty of people of color out there who want to, to feel seen and feel heard and feel related to. Um, and so if— yeah, please do. Please DM me and let me know if you want to be on the podcast. Today we're talking to my friend Gustavo. Gustavo, um, actually mentioned the term minority stress when we were talking on Instagram, and at the same time I had been reading some studies about minority stress, and so it was It was a sign for me that we needed to get him on the podcast. So welcome to the podcast, Gustavo, if you'd like to tell us about yourself.

Thank you. Hi, how are you? Well, my name is Gustavo. I was, I was born in Venezuela, and my family came to the United States when I was 3. So that's identity number one of part of the minority stress theory. I think with, in my case, it's important to highlight the word multiple, And put multiple in front of multiple minority stress because there was a lot of intersections that I found myself at, whether it was brown, Venezuelan, undocumented, neurospicy. And what else was it? Have you heard that term before?

I have not heard neurospicy. Neurodivergent? Are you talking about neurodivergency? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Like ADHD or just ways that I think differently.

Yeah.

Hyper-emotional, sensitive. I just felt things deeper than most people. And that just kind of the way those identities, it's not like simple math, like brown plus gay equals double stress. It's more like the way these different dynamics interlock and affect me. So I grew up in New Jersey. I've been in Florida for like 14 years. And I don't know what else to say.

You don't have to say anything else. We're going to learn all about you today. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I had one of my first clients was— spent some time being undocumented and was threatened often from different people when he came out. You know, when he came out, he was married to a woman, you know, and his citizenship was threatened. Right. And also when he's, you know, started to use substances. So, um, but there was this always this feeling of not belonging and where do I belong? Could you— do you relate to that?

100%.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, it was always— there's always a fear in the background of like, what is my future going to look like? Am I going to get deported? What if I get deported? Where would I go? Um, in high school I started seeing everyone like getting permits, starting to drive cars, um, applying for colleges, getting accepted, and I just looked around, I'm just like, I can't do any of that. So I think mentally that was probably the biggest identity that, that, that held me back. It wasn't even being like queer or gay. If anything, I had like a really good self-esteem about that. Like, I was never ashamed of that, or that came eventually internalized, but originally—

So how did that show up for you then? Like, what— how did it affect you? You talked about high school, but as you're learn— as you're learning to navigate the world, in the back of your mind—

Yeah, it immediately put me into like a failed mindset. Like, I was defeated. Like, I have no— there's no way I can succeed. Like how?

Interesting. Well, that had to have affected your Matthews then, right?

Absolutely.

I would say, which we'll get into. So for those of you like me who are new to the term minority stress, there's a study that I was talking about that I was reading back when Gustavo mentioned it. It shows a— I'll put the link into the show notes, but it shows a model for minority stress and it talks about minority stress is distinguished from general stress, right? Stress that all people may experience. By its origin in prejudice and stigma. So thus, a stressor such as losing one's job could be a general stressor or a minority stressor depending on whether it was motivated by prejudice against sexual and gender minority people, as opposed to, for example, economic downturns that impact all people, right, regardless of sexual or gender identity. So what we're talking about is the context of Something that could be a stressor for anyone actually carries more weight because it's based on your, your, your gender identity, your sexual identity, or your racial identity. It doesn't mention racial here, but we're talking about— that's part of this, obviously, right? Yes. In the model, it does mention, um, it does mention race. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you, of course, at the time, probably didn't weren't familiar with minority stressors, or I'm sorry, multiple, multiple minority stressors we're talking about here, right? Um, so tell me about growing up. Like, what was this, you know, how— what was, what was it like growing up as a brown, undocumented, neurospicy gay boy, um, in New Jersey?

Um, it's really subtle and insidious, the effects of Multiple minority stress. Like, for example, my earliest memory, let's say, kids would make fun of like the size of my nose. So from the beginning, I'm like physically different. Like, okay, I look different to them and they notice. So that's something that gets stored inside, like nose too big, too brown, or actually brown. Let me see, let me see, let me see. And then of course bullying became a thing around like 5th grade because I was too effeminate. I didn't even know what gay was. I was like, what? Like, wow, what am I doing wrong? Like, what? What is— there's something wrong with me? Okay, something else is wrong. Too effeminate. Um, but like, it seemed like a lot of little things that I did just were wrong. Like, I couldn't get it right. And it sticks with you, like, internally. You just automatically think, I'm automatically— people see me as wrong or too much or—

Did you have a lot of friends?

Not, not really. Before, before the bully thing, yeah, because I don't know, I saw myself as normal or whatever. But once that started happening, I just kind of isolated more to protect myself. Like, I stopped playing outside when people started making fun of me just to protect myself. I isolated even from an early age, and then I just kind of stuck through high school, and then Eventually I started like defending myself and like getting stronger because of it. It was—

what was your— go ahead. No, go ahead.

It was just a mix of good experiences, bad experiences.

And yeah, if you're— if you're not watching, Gustavo has a lot of, uh, very funny facial expressions, which by the way, uh, we'll go ahead and mention it now. Gustavo has also chronicled his journey with meth and his journey in his life on YouTube. And let's let's just go ahead and share a piece of that. I'll put the YouTube links in also into the show notes so you could listen. But here's part of part. This is part one overcoming drug use. Attend.

All of a sudden, there's banging on the door. Boom boom boom boom. Security and the police take your time hiding the drugs. Hurry up!

Just open the door.

And I'm like. What do we do? Like, I open the curtain to the window to see if there's a balcony to see if I could jump down.

Oh, we're good. Yeah, it's very, very entertaining though. It's very entertaining the way that you produce that and tell the story.

Thank you. Yeah, that was, that was the point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I'm all about adding levity. to this, right? Um, and it helps people also pay attention. But you're very comfortable on the camera in those YouTube videos. Um, but in the YouTube videos, you talk about your journey with, with meth. And so could you tell us a little bit about how did that get started? Um, yeah.

Basically, a predator introduced me to it.

Okay.

Whatever you want to call it. Not sexual, but like an energy vampire, a narcissist, somebody who takes advantage of really vulnerable young people and like wants to manipulate them and influence them, I guess, to feel powerful or whatever. That's how it happened. I met somebody who— I used to bartend at a gay club in New Jersey on the beach. It was like their biggest nightclub. And eventually I moved over to the hotel side and I was— I worked at the front desk and Um, a couple of guys came in to check in one late night. It was a Latin night. And, and, um, and I guess I found them attractive or whatever. And then I checked them into the room and I kind of like went up there and followed them just to like hear what was going on. I was really young and I guess horny.

I don't know.

Um, and I hear just like bickering and like weird sounds coming out. I'm like, why? I think they were— it was gonna sound like this or whatever. Anyway, whatever. I go back downstairs. They come back downstairs, and and the and the predator turn makes a double take and looks at me. He's like, "Oh, I'll be back. I'll be back to talk to you." And I was like, "Okay." Anyway, we developed a friendship, and this one time we went out to eat, and he asks me, "So, like, have you ever done drugs?" And I was like taken aback. Like, "Um," my immediate answer was no. But recently, I had just tried cocaine for the first time. I was under a lot of stress, and that day I got married for— anyway, I got married with somebody eventually to obtain papers or documents or whatever.

Oh, okay.

A close friend. And that day, that night, I was just the whole time, I was just like in my head, like, holy shit, somebody offered me cocaine. I tried it for the first time, like, probably like a month before then. So I was like, actually, yeah, I tried cocaine once. He said, okay, cool. So you do drugs, so you're okay with it. And then he starts to tell me that he's— he likes Tina, and I didn't know what that was, and I was like, I don't want— I have no idea what that is. And then he explains it, and I was like, oh, that's kind of crazy. He's like, you should come to Jersey City with me one day. Like, that's where he— where he got it. And I eventually started going with him to watch him get drugs and get high, and I just— I would see like the night and day shift of like him being like a little like Tense, and then just calm down, like happy and everything. And I was like, that's fascinating. And I went with him like for months doing that, and they would offer me, and I would just say no, I wasn't interested. I didn't. I had no interest. That's that's too much for me. And and they'd ask me why, and I would say that it's because I'm scared I'm gonna like it. Um hmm. That's how that's how that started.

So okay. So when you call him a When you label him as a predator, what is that? What do you mean by that?

I mean, he was somebody who didn't have my best interests at heart, and he just wanted somebody to manipulate. The relationship was really abusive. He was really critical of me and would emotionally trauma dump on me and talk about how terrible his relationship and abusive it was with his ex. And I would— I didn't want to hear that. Why was it on me to try to make him feel better? And I felt the responsibility of, like, the emotional labor of, like, oh, just try to Look at it on the bright side, blah, blah, blah, forget about it. I don't know, trying to make him feel better. That wasn't on me. He was— by the way, I was, I was 22 and he was, I think, 38 at the time.

22 and 38. Okay, so you were 22. My other question. Okay. And so eventually he broke you, I'm guessing, and you tried it.

Yeah. Similar to my first When I lost my virginity, it was it was I was fifteen and yeah and it was the same thing like just somebody kept pushing like do it do it come on come on come on come on I'm trying and I was just okay fine whatever at one point an older man yes cousin well that's a whole other podcast there's there's no shortage of mess I assure you yeah yeah well your mess is your message as they say yeah you know there's I did a One of my most popular reels is talking about the, the growing number of older gays who are using meth and going into rehab.

And the other, the other growing population are the young, the 20s, young 20s, right? And they correlate because these older guys feel invisible in this community. They feel forgotten. They're tossed to the side. This is their way of getting attention and getting these young boys is they wave a bag of Tina, you know, so these young boys don't have to ever pay for it. But the problem is, you know, these guys who are retired or close to retirement have the resources to take a week off if they need to. These young boys are waiting tables or they're in college, you know, and their lives begin to deteriorate. Um, and so that— it's a phenomenon that's been going on for a long time, and it sounds like you were, you were victimized by that.

I'd say so.

And I'm also wondering, so he was also Latino though, right?

No, he was Middle Eastern. He was Lebanese.

Oh, okay.

I should say his name, but— no, no, no, I'm sure—

No, we don't call him out. Okay. All right. So when you started to use it, uh, and maybe we, you know, maybe we Can come back to the minority stress in terms of— yes, the multiple minority stress in terms of how— what made you want to attach to this man and what made you want to keep using. So can you talk about that maybe?

I think it was— I, I think it was I wanted a friend. I wanted like a partner. I wanted some sort of intimacy, somebody to have conversation with, somebody to check up on me, somebody to call. He was also— he wasn't unattractive. He was, he was good looking. He was bald. He smelled really good all the time. And he was very charming. He had swag, as we call it. And I was like, oh, he's cool. That's someone I want to be around. Like, he just kind of— he seemed cool to be around. And like, I could— like, I kind of wanted to be like him. I kind of looked up to him.

Was it something that made you feel included?

Yes.

We're talking about this theme of Where do I fit in? Where am I included? Right?

100%. Yeah, because I didn't, I didn't have— okay, going back to your question, no, I didn't have a lot of friends at that time either. No.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wanted that. I never— it's not something I never really had.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So moving forward, what was your experience in the beginning and in the middle with, with Tina in terms of— we all have a similar experience while we're in it, right? I mean, we all do the thing, we, we, we do the stuff, right? But how did it affect you? Like, were you— did you continue to meet predators per se? Were you taken advantage of? What was your— what was your Tina life like?

It was freaking weird. Like, it just didn't make sense. I had a really, really, really— at that time, I, I started going through the process of like getting my papers and stuff, and that is very draining, especially for me. Somebody who is really sensitive and like overthinks. I started to, and my mental health started to be affected. And so I didn't start using a lot. I really just like was scared of it or understood and respected its power probably, 'cause I understand, I knew how like addictive it was and I didn't want that to happen to me. So I started using, I used— the first time I used it was February 2010. The next time that I was, like, the next year in, like, 2011 after I moved to Florida. And it was the same kind of, like, I wanted to, like, save somebody or make somebody's life better. And it was so weird because it was like this— why was I there? There was no reason why someone like me would be with someone like them. And going back to, like, the older man thing and the younger man thing, it was like I went— it was a fucking crack den. I went back to a crack den. And sorry. And it was the same thing. I was like, no, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want. I'm scared I'm gonna like it. And eventually I tried it. But this time I smoked more and I was like, oh shit, okay, I get it. I get why people like it. And then I started branching out to like other people. I don't know. Does that answer the question?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. I mean, it was just dark for no reason. Like I had no self-esteem, so I felt like that was what I deserved or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you talked about— when we talked, um, together, you talked about an early relationship too, where you were— that you learned later you were being taken, taken advantage of. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, it was crazy. When I was 15 and 16, I started dating. I had my first boyfriend in high school who was 18. Um, long story short, I guess he was a sex addict or something, and he would go online, go on AOL chat rooms M4M chat rooms, remember those?

No.

And he would chat to like a lot of guys in the area, and he would go on these hookups often, like, and he started inviting me and taking me with him to all of these hookups, like a lot, one after the other. Sometimes we got paid. He slutted me out, I guess that's what I call it now. And looking back, it's like, wow, that's not Normal. And I didn't want— I didn't want to do it. I didn't particularly want to. I just went along because he was my boyfriend and I thought that's what you just did. And so from the age of 15 and 16, I've just been hooking up a lot and it just— it was something that was familiar. So I continued that behavior, you know, years after throughout. I didn't even like it. I didn't want to do it.

Older guy, I guess.

He was 18. Okay.

And I was like, 18.

I've seen 16.

Still, you're underage.

Yeah, true.

And, and you thought that was just normal, what, what guys do? I mean, you're 15 years old.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And so how did that— go ahead.

Yeah, yeah. How did it affect me? Eventually, I hated sex. I didn't like it. I didn't understand why people liked it. And it got to the point where, like, I would orgasm. And after I came, I would feel this intense wave of terror. Like, oh my God, I gotta get out of here. This is not safe. I have to leave. I have to leave right now. And it would just— it would always happen. And I would still do it. Like, people would sometimes look at me like, are you okay? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah. And then I would leave and just— it would just be— yeah, that's, I guess, PTSD.

So how did you get through that? And, and did Tina— did your Tina experience then make that worse or better?

Better. It numbed it out. It didn't, you know, it was just like The other as well.

Right, right. Yeah, which is very common that I hear is guys who have sexual type stressors, insecurities, trauma, sexual trauma even, they will use meth because it takes all that away temporarily. So it's out of your mind. So you're free to have sex without, you know, thinking about the trauma and the stress of, of what's affected you in the past. Again, another example of meth being a shortcut, an anesthesia, right? An anesthesia of sorts to, to get rid of your shame, and instead of doing the work to do so. Um, yes. Okay, so what was your sex life toward the end of Tina or after Tina?

Well, after a few years and like acceptance and like self-work or inner work, I— it started— I started enjoying masturbating and orgasming and like I remember finishing. I remember coming and then like feeling pleasure, start beginning to feel pleasure. And when I did, I would just like start like praying to God, like thanking God. Like, thank you, God, for this, for this, for this, for me being able to feel this. Thank you, God, for this pleasure. Thank you, God. Like that is, I guess, moving. Like it got that like deep. Like, like I was so grateful that I began to feel pleasure.

Pleasure.

Um, well, towards the end though— can you answer— can you ask that again?

Yeah, I mean, I think you've been— I think you just answered it. Okay. I mean, that's, that's one way, you know, I think that you, you healed that or got past that, that trauma is— I mean, I don't know that you ever heal from it, but what is sex like for you now?

Enjoyable. Fine.

Good.

Like, I, I seek it out and it's— and I'm grateful for it. I feel like I'm making up for lost time.

Interesting. Yeah, great. Good. We need to hear that. We need to hear hope, right?

Absolutely. Okay.

All right. Well, so moving forward then through that, um, you, you mentioned, um, that you are the oldest in your family, um, which is something that you attributed to your ability, your ability to, to stop, right, and control things.

Absolutely. Middle child.

Oh, middle child. Middle child. Okay.

But like, I don't feel a responsibility necessarily towards my older brother. Like, I just kind of— so like, I feel like in the ladder of things, like I need to be— yes, that helped anchor me through using because I never allowed myself— I never allowed for it to take over me. One of the reasons why was because I have 2 younger siblings and I feel a responsibility Towards them, to be responsible, to show them that I can take care of myself. Well, not not to prove to them anything, but to just to be an example of like to stay afloat, to stay strong, to be responsible. To that helped me a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. And so are they citizens?

You're yes.

So okay, they're undocumented citizens. No, you are liar. Yeah, yeah. I mean, are you still though? Are there times when you're afraid to be on the road? Afraid— you had mentioned afraid of being outside. Is that something that's in the back of your mind sometimes still?

It used to be very stressful to just go out in public and be myself because I was either too this, too that, too much, too sensitive, too loud. I don't know. But, um, it used to stress me out, but I didn't have the words for it. I didn't know why. But now I know why. And like, It's fine. I have, I have defenses and awareness enough to go out and tackle any, um, adversities that, that come my way. Like, I have the tools, I have the awareness. It's fine now.

Well, you mentioned self-work and, and the work that you've done, um, through the years. What— can you talk to us about that? So if I'm, if I'm a person of color listening to this and I— my self-worth is shit, right? And sometimes, you know, sometimes guys will say, you know, something— sometimes the only thing I have is my meth binges. Yes, I crash and it's ruining my life, but sometimes that's my only glimmer, my glimpse of feeling normal, right? What would your advice be if someone came to you and said that?

My advice would be, well, first I would ask them why. Well, I guess they told me why they use it, because they— okay, I would ask them what they want. What do they get out of the use? What is— what are they missing in their, in their real life, in their regular life? For example, for me, I, I used to do it because of the sense of intimacy that it gave me, albeit artificial.

Mm-hmm.

But I never had— like, after my boyfriend in high school, I never had a partner after that. I guess I was so traumatized that I just didn't want a boyfriend, or I couldn't handle it emotionally, mentally. And so my reason was intimacy. Just the being naked around other men and just like conversation and just like it feeling all good. I wanted that. And so once you recognize what you need, that's self-awareness and you can do work towards getting that without it. Um, I had years of talk— I had the luxury of having years of talk therapy.

Okay.

For free. And all you— sometimes all you need is just to talk. Just talk and listen to your thoughts out loud for the first time. And then realizing that and learning about yourself. Because I would, I would go through therapy and I would just, I would be like, wow, I never said that out loud. I never— and I would get affirmation that that was normal. It's fine. After all the things I've been through, this is what 1+ 1= 2. Like, this is what I believe I deserve because of what— because of my self-worth issues. You gotta, um, work on self-awareness and your reason why. And I would, I was, I would— my advice to them is to get to know yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Ask who, what, why, when.

Yeah. Okay. Is that something you did then?

Yes.

And so how do you integrate that today? Like, how, how does it show up for you when you, you know, when you're talking about knowing yourself? And is that bound— is that a lot of boundaries? Is that, um, kind of weighing in who's allowed in and who isn't? Like, what does that look like? I mean, how, how are you thinking differently too these days based on everything you've been through?

Okay, I'd ask, what are my needs? What am I needing right now? Why do I feel this way? Like, if I feel bad or sad or angry, I have to like think back, like, wait a minute, wait a minute, why? What is the root of this? And what is a healthy way to get that need met? I don't know, this is kind of hard.

It's not— there's no wrong or right answer. I'm just curious. Okay, So looking at, looking at moving forward out of the Tina years, right? Um, that was 16 years ago basically, right?

Yeah, I was sorry, 15 years ago about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you talked about the Mankind Project.

Oh my God, yeah.

Yeah, so tell us a little more about that.

Thank you for reminding me about that. I would probably mention stuff like that to, to the user as well because that's an outlet to to meet other men in a real safe, intimate way. Anyway, MKB is an organization, a men's organization that focuses on inner work, your emotions, feeling things, working through your emotions and past trauma, conflict resolution, talking, and basically singing Kumbaya and screaming naked in the woods.

That sounds fun.

And there's initiations. that happen where people, where men are— go through a— they get stripped of all their belongings, they start in the dark, and then they're like, I don't know, it's this process. And so I was part of that in 2016 after—

yeah. What, what made you get involved with it?

I started seeing like flyers around town, like, like, are you I forgot what it said, but it was something like it was basically calling like emotionally aware, emotionally intelligent, emotionally people who wanted more out of life. And I signed up, and that weekend actually happened to be like an LGBT well not L but GBT weekend for queer men specifically and their issues and stuff. And so I got initiated during a gay weekend, and afterwards we after that. there would be like weekly meetings, iGroups, where we talk about like the highs and lows of our week or things that we want to work through. And I found that when I spoke about my issues, they were— they didn't know what to say, or they would say it was, it was not theirs to work through. Like a lot of, at the time, a lot of the stuff that I was struggling with was like racism issues and being different because of the color of my skin and feeling— and, and they just were scared to like talk about that.

Mm-hmm.

What else? Sometimes I would react maybe angry, and then I would be gaslit basically, like that I was being too angry, or once I smiled, oh, see, this is the Gustavo we like. And I'm like, no, this is dumb. This is dumb for me right now. This isn't working for me. This is an organization that promised Fellowship and camaraderie and like connection. And I'm like, but where is it for me? Like, like, I, I, I had too much like intersecting issues. Anyway, that's when, when I realized that something else was needed, something more like for people like me or people with the same wounds and trauma. And, um, and I started like imagining or visualizing like a space, a circle, a heart circle where, where men like me share. and talk about their experiences. And yeah, so I, I started thinking about like a group for party boys.

Yeah.

That we have our own, our own issues and experiences, a clandestine world where nobody else understands that you can't talk to, to your like normal friends or normal quote unquote like family and stuff. You just keep it to yourself. But there's an outlet needed to express it. And, uh, and these, these groups, I just pictured like a space where your needs are met, where if somebody needs a hug or if somebody needs to cuddle or somebody needs to cry or somebody needs advice or to share, like, this happened to me at this party, and like for someone else to say like, me too, wow, you know, there's— that is real intimacy and that would fulfill my needs. Yeah.

So the Mankind Project fell short for you.

100%.

It sounds like that they weren't giving you a space to feel, right? They were— it was conditional, it sounds like, right? Yeah, yeah.

Like, they're still— they're still— to give them credit, they're still evolving, still developing, still learning. That's why they wanted to add— like, that's why they started adding like gay weekends, men of color weekends to— oh, I actually went to— they actually had like, uh, Latin men, like Spanish-speaking, and like Regular mainstream men's weekend where we all kind of— oh my God, it was crazy. We actually— there was an exercise that we did where all the Latino men stood in a circle and all the other men stood in a wider circle, and the wider circle would yell or say all the stereotypes that they ever learned about that group.

Uh-huh.

So I heard, you know, dirty, poor, criminal, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, holy shit. Like, it was a very, very intense exercise. Then we switched the roles and the mainstream men were in the middle and the Latino men were on the outside and they had their turn to like— and I, when I tell you I went nonstop, nonstop, this, that, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. Um, I wouldn't say exactly what—

Did you feel like that was cleansing for you? Healing?

Yes and no. Like, it could have been in the right way, but I don't think they exactly knew how to carry out that exercise. Anyway, somebody told me afterwards that they wanted to punch me in the face after everything that they said. Like, they were really like, after, you know, I don't know, um, um, relating them or Comparing them to colonizers or like murderers or like blah blah blah thieves, the joke of the universe dry blah blah blah. And then after the words we we went to bed, which was kind of dangerous. It felt like there was a fucking storm inside of me that was wind.

That's right.

It felt like a lot of energy moving inside of me, and then we went to sleep, and we discussed it the next day. But it wasn't there wasn't any further discussion of like. How do we heal that or mitigate that? It was intense. Yeah, but after that, that was my last one that I went to. I was like, this is stupid.

But it sounds like that you, you have had, maybe even have, a lot of anger that needed to be moved through.

Yes.

Um, but you weren't— it doesn't sound like you were given the, the, the, the space after to really process that, right? Yeah. So you were talking about you, you want to create some kind of groups for men that, that is a different type of space. Is that something that— is that something you're working on, or is that something that you would just really love to see?

It's something that I have worked on, and it's in the very early stages. Like, I originally, I collaborated with one person on some sort of harm reduction gathering Right. And he ended up just going through his shit and just is still going through his shit and trying to get his shit together. So I was just kind of like left on my own and like, I feel like I need more support with it. I actually have held a harm reduction meeting at my place once and it was okay. It was 5 guys, but it was a— it fulfilled everything that I had imagined. It was like, oh my God. Yes, like hearing them talk, it's like, holy shit, you can tell that they're not used to saying things out loud. And it was very therapeutic for them. It was like group therapy, really. And for me—

Yeah, go ahead.

My friend who's going through his stuff, he was going to handle the harm reduction side and the script and the formal this and that. And I would handle the more emotional talking and sharing part. It was going to be like that. And so my, my, my, like, yes, all that, I believe all that stuff works and everything, but I'm more of like the emotional and getting to know yourself and like emotional intimacy.

So in terms of that harm reduction meetings, so these are, these are guys that were currently using managed use, is what you're— right? Um, and, and I think, I think what you're saying—

No, not necessarily, but yeah.

No? Okay. Um, they're still using though?

Yes. The—

I think it's interesting, and, and I want to kind of highlight that, is, um, saying out loud—

it—

we're afraid to say out loud, I, I don't want to quit, right? Or I don't— I, I still want to use. I'm not ready to stop, right?

Okay.

There's some— there's something about that that's liberating for men when I get them to just say it. When I can tell, like, they're enrolling in a coaching program, but they still— they're doing it because their why is because they They have to, but they're really not ready to quit, right? It's like going to rehab. You're not ready to quit. It's not going to stick. I, I just— all depends on your why. So I think what you're onto here is really important in that having a space where you can say out loud that I still want to use meth is healing, it's liberating. And paradoxically, you, you quit a lot of times, you know, because you're honest. with yourself. But we're so scared, we're so scared to say that because we're pummeled with this abstinence message of if— if, right, if you use, you're bad, if you don't, you're good, right? So I think it's good. I think what you're on to is, is important there.

Um, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds like it's a way to conquer it, to finally conquer it once and for all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good. Yeah, once I realized like I do, I do like to do this, it's like, oh shit, like should I feel bad about myself?

Like, right, right. Yeah, it's the why, right? Okay, so you talked about when we had our conversation earlier that there was something I said about meth use being a gift that really, really resonated with you. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely. There's an episode where you said that Something along the lines of like, the meth use was a gift because it leads you to a place where afterwards where you really do get your needs met. You gain something from it. You either gain strength or self-awareness or— I'm actually looking for exactly what I wrote because I don't want to miss out on anything. I want to properly Give the people what they need. Matthews can be a gift. Once you get to the other side of the addiction, there are rewards and meaning that we can gain from it. Like, this is why I went through this, and this is what I can share to other people. I really admired that, and it spoke to me and inspired me. Like, I wholeheartedly agree. Like, there's a reason why we go through why we go through.

And why did you go through it?

Oh wow. I think I went through it to prove that You can— that, that you can conquer it, that it doesn't have to overcome you, to be an example of like that you can get through it, you can be stronger, you can show people how— other people how to develop those skills. Thank God. I always wondered, I always ask myself like, what is the difference between someone who, who uses meth and they're somewhat stable, they get through it, and then another person uses it and they lose everything, they sink to the bottom as I call it. I like to see it as like staying afloat, sinking to the bottom. And I believe multiple minority stress helped me develop a lot of skills. It helped me develop strong sea legs, like I like to call it, to stay afloat, whether it's hyper-awareness, self-awareness, whether it's really emotional intelligence, emotional intelligence on steroids. What else? What other skills did I develop? Let me see. Insights. Okay. Multiple minority stress gave me tools, insights, and instincts most people won't ever develop. Self-soothing in hostile environments. You name it. There's a whole list that I have. Honest and accurate self-evaluation and assessing what you go through mentally. Like all of the all of all of those things helped me like not go over the edge. Just be aware. Like be careful. I don't know. Like it helped. It had design. It made me a survivor in many things. I survived all of that. So I can survive all the other things. Like, and I think a lot of people don't go through certain things to develop those skills, and they just don't know. Like, they— I don't know, they end up losing themselves or forget about themselves. But I was always very just centered. Like, even when I was really high, I would just check in, like, are you okay?

I wonder if that comes from— sorry, getting cough. I wonder if that comes from having to continually check in with yourself growing up the way that you did? Um, because it sounds like you had to take care of you at the end of the day. Like, no one was coming— no one was coming to save you.

No.

And you're probably already in the habit of checking in. Does that sound—

yes.

Does that resonate?

Yes. Yes. Ever since I was young, I would feel bad and I would go, wait a minute, why do I feel bad? And I would rewind in my brain. Oh, that's why. It's a money issue, or—

It's good. Yeah, good.

Thank God.

Okay, well, what did I— what did I miss, Gustavo? You— what did I miss today? What did I not ask that would be important, an important message for you to, to get out there? Because I, I— as you look, I'm just going to talk.

Yes.

You know, this, this issue of minority stress, multiple minority stress, I think it could be explored deeper and deeper in terms of how It's uniquely affecting people of color who go into— well, and gender— how, what makes them go into meth, but also what are the challenges unique to them to stopping and what's the benefit of getting on the other side? Because I feel like if you come into the meth experience in an under— I think you come into it with more challenges than someone else. Then when you come out on the other side, it feels like you're going to have a trajectory that might be even more expansive than someone else's, you know, because you have more to overcome.

Yes.

Yeah. What is your— what did I miss asking about?

Okay.

Anything?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think a lot of my fellow party boys fail to feel everything. I think they're afraid to feel their Their pain, sadness, rejection, failure, and rage. I think they push that away and use meth to, to not feel those things, but they have to. They absolutely must let those things settle and sink and be uncomfortable. Learn how to accept the uncomfortability and how horrible that is. You have to. It's part of human life. You have to feel the full spectrum of emotions. I believe the meaning and purpose and goal of life is to feel everything, to feel all your experience, to feel all your emotions, to experience both sides of the same coin. In other words, in this world of duality— hot, cold, light, dark, good, bad— the idea is to experience the entire spectrum. To the degree that I feel the negative is the degree that I'll feel all of my success, all of my pleasure, joy, affirmation, success, elation. You have to allow everything.

Mm-hmm.

And I think Yeah, some people are, are able to feel that. I was able to. It sucked. You have to go through the, the bad feelings. It's not pleasant, but, but there's a reward on the other side. To the degree that you feel those things, you're going to feel good, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Like the darker you go, the brighter the light on the other side.

Amen.

Yeah, I agree with that for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you for being brave enough to put everything on YouTube. Thank you for being brave enough to come on the podcast. Um, I think that, you know, if you're listening to this and you can relate to some of Gustavo's story, um, then, you know, join in the conversation. You can comment on YouTube or you can, you know, contact Gustavo. We'll put his contact, whatever contact information you want on there, Gustavo. Um, but I think just coming forward as a person of color and talking about this is really important and can help really encourage more dialogue and conversation with others. So appreciate that very much. And again, very brave, very courageous, and I appreciate you reaching out.

Thank you, Dallas.

All right, guys, that's it for today, this week. I hope you enjoy. If you have any ideas, suggestions for topics, please let me know. Just let me know. We'll work on it. If you come with a suggestion of a topic, maybe you can also come with a suggestion of a person to talk about the topic. That would help me out a lot too. So yeah, thank you guys, and I'll see you next week. Bye.