EP 2:28 Healing Sexual Shame AfterMeth with Coach Kevin

Shame is, uh, it's a topic that I, that I love. I love it, um, for so many reasons, but one of them is just it's something that we don't talk about but becomes so hidden and it becomes such a driving force in our life. And so I love helping people to build a new relationship with it, uh, and then once we see it, we can then start to, start to transform it.

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive pattern associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us today. You have a billion podcasts to listen to, but you chose this one, and I'm so grateful that you're here. We are going to have a lot of fun today talking about sex, talking about sexual shame, and talking about healing. One of my favorite topics— all of my favorite topics, actually. Um, you know, every time you download this podcast, like it, share it, you are helping to eradicate the epidemic of chemsex around the world among our population of men who have sex with men. But not only that, is what happens when you stop using, when you stop using crystal meth. As you all know, if you're listening, your sexual arousal template has pretty much been deprogrammed and reprogrammed by a chemical. Um, and guess what? When you stop using meth, all of the same shit that was there before comes back right back up. And a lot of that same shit was sexual shame to begin with. So This is going to be an episode that you want to bookmark and make sure that you listen to, take notes. Speaking of notes, every episode comes with a supplemental study guide. You can get that in the show notes. There'll be a link to it online, or better yet, you can get it to your inbox by joining my mailing list at drdallasbragg.com. Click on blog, put in your email address, then I gotcha. No, just kidding. And then you can get the supplemental study guide in your inbox. And a weekly worksheet from me, a newsletter with a worksheet. It's also free. All right. With no further ado, I want to introduce my guest, Coach Kevin Martin. Coach Kevin Martin, I'm going to let you introduce yourself so I don't flub anything up.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, thank you for having me. I'm so, so excited to be here. So yeah, my name is Coach Kevin. I am here in Hawaii. I've been in Hawaii for the past 6 years. I'm originally from Ohio. Uh, grew up on a small farm, uh, in a small farm town, really rural, conservative, religious area. Uh, and now I am a sexual empowerment coach for gay men where I primarily help within the realm of sexual shame. Um, shame is, uh, it's a topic that I, that I love. I love it, um, for so many reasons, but one of them is just it's something that we don't talk about but becomes so hidden and it becomes such a driving force in our life. And so I love helping people to build a new relationship with it. And then once we see it, we can then start to transform it. So for me, like, shame has been a big part of my story itself. So growing up where I grew up, growing up when I grew up also, it just wasn't okay to be anything other than heteronormative, uh, and what the, what the community said was okay. Um, but I remember my first memory is having a crush on a boy in my preschool class, and I just knew it was very, very natural to me. Um, but then the older that I got, and once I started paying attention to, to the community, to, uh, other people's attitudes and opinions and, and perspectives, I realized that Oh, how I am, how I operate isn't allowed. It's not welcome. It's not, it's not what's wanted here. Um, so then, uh, taking that and reflecting it inward, I just started to look at, okay, well, what's wrong with me then? Like, why am I the different one? Why, why, um, why am I like this and everybody else is like that if that's what we're supposed to, supposed to be like? So I started just to internalize that message of Something must be wrong. Something must be broken. Something must be faulty. And not having any story to contradict that made that belief really, really strong. And it was just further supported by the church that I was going to, again, by the community, by stuff I'd hear on the news or politics, all that stuff. And so the older that I got, I really, really became very disconnected from my own self. Lots of self-hatred, self-criticism, self-judgment. And it wasn't until I kind of reached a breaking point and I realized that, like, okay, I'm either going to I'm either not going to make it anymore in life, like this is the end, or I'm going to figure this shit out and find a way, find a way through it. So that's when I started learning about shame, what it was, the roots of it, and just having that language became so liberating to be like, oh, this is what, this is what I'm feeling. And then I, with the help of, you know, Counseling, therapy, coaching, just personal growth, learning new perspectives. I started to untangle the mess that that shame was. Um, and then piece by piece, you know, started to just kind of rebuild myself back together. Um, and now I'm so grateful to be able to do that and to help other people with that, with that process too. It's really beautiful. Just so grateful. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you definitely have a grateful type of energy. You're like very smiley and bright and happy. I like that. It's reminding— it's reminding me to smile because I forget. People think I have resting bitch face, which I do, but, um, it's, it's helping me. When I look at you, I'm like, oh yeah, smile.

Yeah, yeah. I, um, I don't know, I've just always been a smiley person. Like, uh, I That was like my nickname growing up. And like, especially in the church, like it would just make the church ladies very happy. Um, like they would always be like, hey, like, where's your smile? Um, and so, uh, that became a, a really big part of my identity. Um, and then that actually paired with the shame became a really interesting dichotomy where when I would step out into the world, I, that would, that became my role. My role became to make other people happy through my smile, through my energy.

Hmm.

I couldn't be sad. I couldn't show any other emotion because then people would be like, hey, this isn't normal for you. Like, you're making me uncomfortable, so I need you to be happy. And so as I would step out into the world, that's what I would do. But then when I would go back into my room, I would, uh, like literally I'd just shut the door in our house and I would, uh, just kind of crap on myself because I'd be like, they don't know what you're they don't know the truth of who you are. You know, like you're presenting this image, but they don't know that you're gay. Uh, they don't know what you like. They don't know what you're actually attracted to. So you're, you're fake, you're wrong. Um, all the shame messages is really compounded.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it like, just that symbol has been really interesting over time. But now, like, I'm grateful that like this, this mild energy is very authentic. Like, um, it is, it's coming from a different space. So yeah, it's, it's just interesting to see the evolution that we can go through throughout our, our time span.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. And if the— if you're listening, think about this question is, what role are you playing? You know, and when are you playing roles, you know, to make other people happy? Because you said, when I didn't play the role, it made other people uncomfortable.

Right.

So everything we were doing was revolving around what other people wanted. And if it, if something was in the way of getting approval or love from someone else, like being gay or not smiling, you know, then we have to hide that. Right. That's, that's wrapped up in shame too. Right. I mean, that's part of what we're going to talk about.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Good question. Okay. So if you're listening, ask yourself, What roles am I playing that I don't want to play? You know, what, who, what personas have I presented in different facets of my life? And that could, that can help you begin to understand shame. One thing that you said in terms of understanding shame is having the language to know what I'm feeling.

Mm-hmm.

Having what, you know, so let's start. I like to be talked to like a 2-year-old. So let's start 101. What is shame? And I, and I'm, I'm led to, I'm, I'm led to ask you to please, um, to, uh, correspond it shame versus guilt. If we could do that.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So shame is the inner belief that I am bad. Um, I think that sentence sums it up so perfectly. It's just, I am bad. Um, in other words, I am broken, I am flawed, I am wrong. Um, it's, it's a lot of the messaging around like something is fundamentally flawed within me that I can't change.

Mm-hmm.

But I have recognized that I'm not, I'm not quote unquote okay, um, in the sense of what people want. Um, but I can't change it, so I'm stuck here. Like, this is who I am. Um, the, the thing about shame is that it's never ours. Like, when birthed into the planet, like, we don't come carrying this. Like, everything about shame is put on to us.

Mm-hmm.

Which is actually incredibly liberating because then once we, once we find that we have some of these inner messages, these inner beliefs, we can then start to untangle them of like, okay, where did this come from? Where did I hear all that stuff?

Yeah.

But yeah, like bare bones, shame is that inner belief of I am bad. So it's at some point somebody has directly or indirectly told us that message of like, you are wrong. And then you've— we heard that enough times and we started to repeat it in our own head over and over and over and over again to a point where it became concrete. So like the thing with inner beliefs too is that beliefs like can be changed if, if we're willing to change them and if we repeat the new belief enough. And so shame, it's just, Um, it's just, I like to think of it as like a bunch of words that aren't helpful that we've, that we've repeated to ourselves long enough to believe that story.

Hmm.

Um, and then when we start to think of it like that, thinking of it as a story or as something that can be changed, it starts to lose a bit of its grip or lose its power. Um, the difference between shame and guilt is actually super important to keep in mind. Uh, shame, shame again is that belief of I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad. So, uh, Brené Brown talks about this. I love how she explains it, where shame is always about identity. It's about self. It's about who we are as a person. Guilt is about something that I did. It's about a behavior. It's about an action. So guilt is one step Outside of ourself. And this is where like a lot of the, the research behind emotions helps us to see that in, in actuality, for, for the most part, guilt is actually a very beneficial and helpful emotion.

Yeah.

Because if we recognize that we did something bad, we don't like how that thing felt, we, we, we want to make a change to do something different to not feel that emotion again. Um, with guilt, since it's an action and a behavior, we see that we have choice in it and make a different choice if we don't like how that choice landed. But with shame, because it's, it's held kind of on that foundational identity level of, I am bad, like our brain perceives that as Mm-hmm. It's concrete, it's crystallized, it can't be changed. And so we then feel like we're stuck with it. Like, like this is just who we are. Um, even though that's not the case, that's how we perceive it. And like, so yeah, like I always like helping people to note that difference too, because it can feel, those emotions can feel very similar. But the language around them is actually very helpful to give us a different orientation and direction on where we want to go with that. Yeah.

Thank you. And so, so listeners, if we can, if we can digress from sex shame for a minute, for you listeners, this, this is what we talk about when it comes to relapse or what I like to call a using episode, right? It's that when you use on your way out, you know, in the journey, if you look at it as shame, you say, I am bad. I'm a bad person. I'm terrible at recovery. I'm doing something wrong. It becomes your identity that I am someone bad because I relapsed. And when you are stuck in that shame and that's the language you use, you're more likely to go back and do it because if I'm bad fundamentally anyway, what don't I just go use meth? But so you have to differentiate. And like you said, I think it all comes down to in the beginning, the language, right? Like instead of I am bad, I did something. You don't, I wouldn't say bad. I did something out of alignment with my goals. I did something out of alignment with my highest self. I used meth.

Mm-hmm.

That guilt would say, okay, that's cur— I'm curious. I did something out of alignment. What can I do? You said make it, It's a choice. So what kind of choices can I make next time? So it becomes an iteration of the journey instead of defining who you are. Does that sound right?

100%. That's, that's so good. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like, I think when we start to think of shame as, as a language, uh, like a language opportunity, It frees up so much of the pressure that it has, so much of the gunk that it brings because yeah, like if it's like, okay, what if I just start looking at how I speak to myself and speaking to myself differently? Because you're spot on. Like if we're saying like, oh, I'm a bad person because I did this, then The way that the brain perceives that message is like, I'm, I'm reiterating the fact that this is who I am. Um, and this kind of brings in like the subconscious and the unconscious too, where—

Yes.

If that's an unconscious belief that we are bad, then like the unconscious must always be right. And so it will, it will make sure that we make those choices to reaffirm that belief. But if we view it and start saying it as, yeah, like this choice wasn't helpful for me. I love like using like helpful and unhelpful as kind of a spectrum. Whereas, yeah, I did something, but I love what you said too. Like I did something out of alignment with my goals. I did something that wasn't helpful for me in the long run. Like then that's helping us to see like, okay, I do, I have agency here. This says nothing about who I am. It's just, I made a little oopsie daisy, you know.

A little oopsie daisy.

That's good.

Uh, I do like helpful and unhelpful because it does simplify it a little more too, right? It's probably easier for you to say this was unhelpful, right? Or this was not helpful. So I like that. So conscious and unconscious. I want to stop there too. It's okay with you?

Yeah.

So you listening can know that the subconscious mind takes the words you say verbatim, objectively, as truth.

That's right.

Right? So if you say, I am bad, the subconscious believes that as the total truth, no question asked. And so that's what's running, the program that's running in the background that's going to really, when you're in default mode, It's going to cause you— that's what— that's why you go into default mode and you start— you go into this, um, uh, sleepwalking stage when you start to use meth. It's because the subconscious is kicked in and the subconscious says, you told me you're bad, and when you say you, you're bad, you mean you use meth. And so that's what— that's what I think you want to do. Is that right too? Does that sound right to you? Totally.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. You're the— yeah, you just tell me if I say something that's not— that isn't in alignment with what you think.

No, no, this is— yeah, this is perfect. Yeah. It's powerful because there's some different research on it, but one of my mentors and somebody who I just adore, She broke it down very simply and plainly to where 5% of the decisions that we make in a day are our conscious mind, like the ones we're actively choosing, and then 95% are unconscious.

Yeah.

And so I love to break things down as simple as possible. And exactly like you said, like, if we're running, whether it's an active thought or a passive thought of I am bad, Then if we say that enough times, like the unconscious must grab onto that. And this is where I've become such an advocate and proponent of affirmations. If we're just for math's sake, say that we say that message of I am bad to ourselves 10,000 times a day, then we need to counteract that with messages that are more helpful if we want to see a helpful difference. And so, so that's where affirmations of like, I am lovable, I, uh, I have, I have power to make the choices I want to make, I, I have, I have agency here, I have decisions. Like, just repeating that over and over and over in like an annoyingly aggressive way, um, is just balancing out those, those thoughts, which is then helping the unconscious to get behind that. And then our actions— start shifting to. So yeah, that level is so deep. It's, it's, it's really interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. This is why language is so important. I don't think that we understand just how important it is. Again, even saying relapse versus an iteration or a using episode, even that, because of the connotation, the vibration of it in your mind, you know, even that can change the trajectory of your recovery if you just are careful. I would rather you not say anything than to not be mindful about every single word that's coming out of your mouth.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, and one other thing, or not one other thing, many other things, but for something else that I wanted to, to go back and double-click on for you is that you said, Yeah, I also grew up in a rural West Virginia town, so much like rural Ohio. I mean, we're side by side. You were getting this story and the question of what's wrong with me? Because there is something wrong with me based on church, based on culture, based on anything. You could go, I mean, you know, I could grow up and go to the gas station and feel like there's something wrong with me. One of these things is not like the other, right? And so what, something that you said though, is that no one was telling you the opposite.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And that's where we get, that's where we feel this isolation. Don't you think like this, this whole feeling that we're all alone in this world because there's no one else telling us an opposite story than everywhere else we're hearing it. I think that's a really important point.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, and I think, you know, that, that reiterates the power of our own story.

That's right.

You know, where, like, if we— our, our entire lives as queer people are forms of advocacy, where, you know, like, just our existence of continuing to show up Day in and day out is showing somebody else that it's doable. And, you know, it, there might be a child, uh, even a grown adult, you know, there could be somebody who is just observing our experience, who is sitting with all, all the shame and all this inner messaging, not seeing a different way or a different way out. But then like we, our life can just be that lifeline for somebody else, even, and like we have no idea and they don't even know who we are. But it's just that visibility component. So yeah, like, and, and like when we actively then share our story, um, and somebody can resonate with that or, or they see themselves or part of themselves in what we have been through, shame has nowhere to go with that. Um, because if shame, like shame is rooted again in that, that belief of I am bad, but at the core of that is I'm not enough.

Mm-hmm.

Like, like, that's always what it comes back down to. Um, and taking that further, it keeps us quiet. It, it prevents us from talking about it because we don't— it's like, well, if I'm not enough, then why? Like, I don't believe that I'm worthy to talk about what I'm going through, or what I'm going through doesn't matter. Um, it's not important.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but when somebody else says, hey, I've gone through this too, it starts to shine a light of Oh, like I'm not alone. There's, there's at least one other person who also feels this way. So then it starts to break it up and it starts to like, we start questioning like, ooh, this might not be, this might not be fact. Um, so yeah, like it's, it's so, so, so powerful. The stories that like just sharing our story. And I know it sounds so simple, but the way that it radiates out is just, it could be revolutionary for somebody.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. So if I'm listening, um, and I'm wondering what is sexual shame, how do I know if I have it? Which, you know, obviously we're— may you— may it may be obvious to some, but maybe not. Right. Um, a lot of the listeners, a lot of us who got into meth got into it because meth took away our shame.

Right.

The sexual insecurities, everything that, you know, we're— everything that was kind of like, it either took away or it amplified what we were already into. So for instance, if a lot of us grew up having to go out to the park or the cars or, you know, some back alley to have sex because we had to do it in private because it was so wrong. So then we, our arousal template is all about sneaking around anonymous, you know, back alley stuff. So then that's, that's huge in the meth crowd because, you know, so the meth would amplify that. But then some of us just wouldn't even have sex hardly at all because we were so insecure about ourselves, about what we look like, about how our performance was. And so now that we're— meth is behind us, what do we do? So how do I know if I— how do I articulate my sexual shame? And then what would you tell me in the beginning to kind of— how do I start to work with that? Change my relationship with it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I see sexual shame show up kind of like on different layers. Like if we think of an onion, Um, it can pop up in different, different levels. So like that, the, the most fundamental and inner layer is like shame about our sexual identity, shame about our sexual direction, our sexual orientation. So, um, for— I see this a lot for, um, individuals who are, are new into accepting themselves. Um, you know, so maybe, uh, maybe they've been defiant against their inner feelings for decades.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, maybe they've been in the closet their whole entire life. Maybe, maybe they're, um, you know, in a, in a relationship, a heteronormative relationship, uh, but, you know, sneaking around on the side, or you're just questioning, like, um, at, when we're at that, that level, it's that shame of like, um, I am bad just because of what I like, of, of what I'm attracted to. Uh, of like how I'm built. Um, that's, that can be like oftentimes, uh, again, like if, if somebody's new to accepting themselves, that's the first layer for them.

Mm-hmm.

Where, where we have to, we have to see, um, where, where those messages stem from. Um, and, and like, start to, uh, start to ruffle them up. Um, okay, so the, the— I'll go through all the layers and I'll go through like the process of like how we, how we can work through that. So then, um, that, that next level where shame then tends to show up, uh, sexually is like with our sexual actions. So, uh, this is like kind of what you were alluding to of I feel shame about About what I enjoy in the bedroom or wherever I enjoy it. I feel shame about the things that I do to achieve this pleasure. I feel shame about what I'm attracted to, about the interests that I have, the things that I have, the things that turn me on. This, this, this level gets to be really, really Just fascinating. Um, because we can see, like you were saying, like how our arousal template plays into it, how our erotic stories play into it, how previous experiences play into it. If we, uh, you know, unfortunately have any personal story or experience with abuse or trauma, like that plays such a, a loaded role here.

Mm-hmm.

Um, where it is so common and completely understandable and And like, this just makes sense that our arousal template and our interests get intertwined with that trauma. So we can feel very complicated and complex on like, I, I hated what I went through, but there's also parts of me that enjoy it. And what the hell is that about? And now I feel shame because I enjoy that. Like, it gets so, so, so layered.

Mm-hmm.

And so like, that's a massive layer that we want to take a look at of, of like healing, healing some of that up. And then kind of like that layer right above it, but connected to it is like shame about performance, shame about our body. So, you know, this is a lot of messages of, you know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm just bad in the bedroom. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm not good. I don't perform well. Or like, my body doesn't. doesn't do what I want it to do. Um, I don't— I'm not hot enough, I'm not sexy enough, my body isn't, isn't perfect enough, all those things. Um, and so like, uh, often that's kind of again like the onion that I see where—

Yeah.

And, and, and we can pop into that shame story at any point. Um, but it kind of is like that, that progression along the way. But With all of those, the process that I like to take is very actually language-based. So one of the first steps that I help people to do is to find their inner wording. And so I help them to get to the root of what their language is. So this is one of my favorite examples, but Um, one of, one of my clients, uh, struggles, uh, body image has always just been a challenge for them. Um, and over time, like just through our conversations, we arrived at their, their inner message was like, I am bad because I'm husky.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that word husky was very, very poignant for them. And they could go back to exactly the first time that they heard it, who it was from. You know, why, why that person was saying it at that time. So just kind of running with that example, like, you know, that came from parents, but, but it also was from a small community. Parents were very worried about public perception, and so they didn't want their child to not be accepted. So they were trying to, trying to do something good to help them make a positive change. But then it just didn't land. It didn't work. But then that word husky stuck around their entire life. And then the decisions that they were making were all based out of that belief of, I'm husky, I'm bad, I'm broken, I'm wrong. So I love to help clients find their own words there because when it's in their language, that's their unconscious. That's what is actually happening way back here that we don't know. That's driving all of our decisions. So then once we identify what that inner belief that we're holding is, there could be one, there could be 30 of them. Like it could be a lot. We then want to— this part's tricky, but we want to respect that belief. Because it's gotten us here. Um, and we don't want to piss it off because it'll retaliate if we do. Um, so we want to help ourselves to see, okay, like, this makes sense. I love that phrase. Like, this makes sense that I feel this way, that I can believe, because it came from this and from this experience.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, we kind of unpack it. We, we explore that story. We see how we arrived at that point. And we also don't shame anybody else in the process. So with that same example, like if that came from, if mom told us that we were a husky, we don't want to take our shame and put it back onto her of like, how dare her say that? But we want to be like, okay, that was not helpful. But, you know, mom was doing the best that she could at that time. Um, you know, trying to protect her livelihood, whatever that is. But us continuing to carry this belief isn't going to take us to where we want to go. And so now we can, we can then start to help ourselves see that shame has gotten us this far, but shame isn't going to take us to feeling good about ourselves, to, um, to the type of sex that we want to be having, to the relationships that we want to have, to the self-love that we want to have. So as, as we see what that old message is, what, and if we strip all that away, what is that new beginning that we can start to fertilize and plant the seeds of, of a new message that we can start to, to move forward with? And this process takes a while because we can't just jump from, I am bad and I hate myself to, oh my God, I love myself and I'm great. Like, that's not practical and it'll actually do us harm, but we have to just start chipping away at it and saying like, okay, um, uh, it's kind of fucked that society says that a certain body needs to look a certain way. Like, that just doesn't make sense. And so like, we wanna start saying, okay, all bodies hold some type of beauty, or we just wanna start like, um, looking at different perspectives.

Mm-hmm.

And then that starts to fortify and build those new beliefs that we start carrying in over, over time. Sorry, that was a lot.

It was a lot. It was good. Let me just— I like to recap just to make sure we all get it.

Yeah.

So the levels, the onion levels of shame, sexual identity, kind of like what I like, right? It could be— I could be ashamed of that, like I like a glory hole. I like a Target bathroom, you know, all that kind of thing. Sexual actions, right? So I hear a lot of guys who say they only want to bottom when they're on meth. And they say they can't, quote unquote, can't bottom sober, which I think is not true. I think it's in their mind, right? It's something about they're ashamed of taking it up the butt. Okay. You know, and, and there's something, you know, that the brain is hooked to the anus. Anus has neurons just like the brain. We learned that on this podcast, The Art and Science of Bottoming. We learned all about that. And so sexual performance, you know, what is my— and body, right? How long can I last? And unfortunately, we've all been programmed by the damn pornography. To think we have to fuck like that, right? And look like that too, right? So we have that sexual body. So I think for the listeners, one thing that Coach Kevin said was that none of these messages that we hear came from us.

That's right.

The messages came from somewhere else. We weren't born with them. And if they were given to you, they can be given back. Right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. So discover what your inner wording is, he says, and your inner beliefs. Your beliefs are just words you keep thinking over and over, and then they become the lens through which you see the world through, right? So if I say I'm a bad, if I think I'm bad, So I use this example. It's not sexual, but I use this example. But me and my friend, or my friends and I, I don't know, what is it? Both my friends and I, what is it? Anyway, we weren't invited to a party. Okay. My friends and I were both excluded from a party.

Hmm.

My friend was like, okay, then there must have been not, there's not enough room or food. And that's okay. I said, they hate me. They don't like me. Right? Like, so that's the lens. We both received the exact same information, but the lens we filtered it through was through a shame lens. Well, for me, was through a shame lens that everything that I experienced, I experienced through this. I am rejected or I'm bad. I'm not liked, you know, that kind of thing. So that's something that you— If you're thinking about what your messages are, what is your inner wording? What are you telling yourself? Um, and that becomes your lens. Am I right so far? Am I on the right track?

Sounds perfect.

Yeah. And once you find out what your shame wording is, respect it. So this is a big piece here because there's a lot of anger out here.

Mm-hmm.

In men who are in recovery, when they start to, you know, you start to go down this route of making amends and the character defects and all the wrong you did, and it, it backfires into reliving all the bad things that we did to make ourselves even feel worse about ourselves. And, but instead of saying this message, I'm husky. You know, instead of saying, I hate that, and that part of me is terrible, you know, and by the way, they put, they used to put husky on the jeans, as you know, it was like the bigger boys wear the husky jeans.

Come on. Right.

Why are we doing this to ourselves? But anyway, um, but you know, so it makes sense that I got this message that I'm husky, but I don't hate it. It's just a part of me that has gotten me this far. And so, and then not shaming who gave you the message, right? And some messages are 30 seconds of your life, like going, going for a second helping at the dinner table and your mom says you don't need that. That could cause you to have a shame message for the rest of your life. It could cause, right, the eating disorders.

Right.

Um, and so then, then you want to start adopting a new message. And as you said, it takes time. This is like turning the Titanic here. You're, you're reversing a lifetime of messaging. So it takes time to build that momentum. So thank you for, thank you for explaining all of that.

Yeah.

Is there anything I left out?

No, no, that was, yeah, that was, that was perfect. And, and yeah, like shame, like you said, like it can happen fast. Uh, and if it's not interrupted and if we keep repeating it, it can then become a belief. And so like, like my, my very first boyfriend, um, uh, he broke up with me because I came too fast. Uh, and like he act— like he told me, he was like, he's like, you're not, you're not good. Like you're not good in the bedroom.

How dare you?

Yeah. And so like, With that being like my first relationship, like, I, I just took that as pure fact. And then, you know, now I'd watch porn, or when I would hear, or like check in with my friends, and like they would talk about like, oh, you know, like, I can last this long, or, uh, you know, like, yeah, you know, like, uh, this guy told me like best time ever. Like, then I would just keep reiterating that message of, oh, like, yeah, I'm my I'm, I'm faulty. I'm faulty because I, because I can't last long. Or, uh, like, like, I am bad in bed, so why would I try anything different? You know? Um, so like those— when one sentence, one experience can really start to do a number on us over time, we don't, don't disrupt it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so like, as we, as we start working through shame, We then want to keep in mind that we're in a really shitty world sometimes that will continue to shame who we are if we put ourselves in those environments. Like, there will always be somebody who hates us. There will always be somebody who doesn't agree with who we are. And if we stay in that environment, that's their lens and that's their perspective, but it's not going to help us, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And so I like, I like to start helping people to see that, like, This goes back to the autonomy piece of we can start to choose where, where we interact and, and, and the environment that we're around, where we can surround ourselves with, with more helpful beliefs, more helpful systems, more helpful people that are in alignment with how we see things. And then that can start to take us to where we actually want to be going.

So find your tribe, kind of what you're saying, right?

Yeah.

Do you find, do you find that being on Grindr and sniffies helps or hurts sexual shame?

I, that is such a good question. Um, I think when used intentionally and very mindfully, it can, they can be helpful tools for working through shame. Hmm. But we have to tread very, very, very cautiously because they can also reiterate much of the old shit. So, like, if it— actually, this is, this is great timing. I don't hook up super often. It's just, it's not my, my preferred way of connection, but sometimes I'm just in the mood and I'm like, yeah, I just want to have some sex and just have fun. So I was like playing around on the apps last night and like I just noticed I was just sitting there for more time than I wanted to spend. Like I was tired, I wanted to go to bed and, you know, I was having like some messages, but then people that I was like, ooh, like this might be fun, or like this person seems interesting, you know, I wouldn't message back or stuff like that. So I'm just like running with that message of, oh, what's like—

Mm-hmm.

What's, what's wrong with me here? Um, but like, I, I caught it really quick and I'm like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. That's not going to help us. Um, so when, when we do use apps, yeah, like Grindr, Sniffies, all of that, like, we want to check in, like, why am I here? What am I— what's my, what's my intention for this particular instance?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and also remembering the The environment that we're stepping into, um, where there is just so much shame riddled within the, the app community in general.

Mm-hmm.

And we don't catch our own shame, it gets spewed onto other people. And so other people's crap can come onto us. So we kind of want to walk around in those apps with like a protective bubble where if somebody doesn't respond to our message, you know, That doesn't say anything about us. That's about them. You know, if somebody says something really nasty, like, again, that doesn't say anything about us. Like, that's showing what their inner child is, you know? So, so we just want to tread, tread lightly. And, and so this is where, like, again, like, when we're on the apps, I want us to be mentally turned on in the sense of, like, actively, why am I here?

Mm-hmm.

Because if we're checking them very passively and those things are happening, then we're going to absorb those messages of, oh, you know, this person told me I'm a, you know, I'm too ugly for them, you know. Yeah. Then we're going to start believing that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And let me, I'm going to just show real quick, if you're, if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, even Coach Kevin Gets ignored on Grindr. Let me just, I'm gonna share the screen here and share your Instagram page if that's okay with you.

Yeah, I think it—

This is what, this is Kevin, Coach Kevin's body here. If Coach Kevin can get ignored on Instagram, then anybody can get ignored on Instagram. We're, we're all getting ignored on Instagram. There is no fact here, right? There's story and there's fact. And because you get ignored, we start adopting a story that we're ugly, we're flawed, we don't look— we don't have a good body. Coach Kevin, even if as we're looking at his body here, gets ignored on Grindr. Thank you for sharing that because that was a good little learning point for all of us. Okay, thank you for that. I didn't mean to divert the conversation, but I knew you had to probably have an opinion about, because that's where a lot, you know, we have these, we have these husky messages already, and then if you hear that again on Grindr, and here's the thing, a lot of us aren't hearing the message, but like you said, we just get ignored.

Mm-hmm.

And then we fill in the blanks. Of what the message is based on what we already believe about ourselves. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, we're— we've talked about the different types of sexual shame, kind of what shame is, and a little bit about creating a new message. So in the time left we have, what's a practical way for me to begin altering this message about myself that's been given to me since a child? Like, how do I begin to create that momentum? Now, I would suggest if you're interested in more of this, contact Coach Kevin and hire him as your coach and have somebody walk through this. We're going to put his Instagram page on in the show notes. He has a website. Um, shameless is the big, is the big word there. And then you also have, um, retreats that we'll talk about in just a minute. But what would you tell us in terms of practical ways for us to begin creating this new message and implementing it, integrating it, embodying it?

Yeah. Yeah. So I love this exercise that I'll lead clients through of like, uh, you know, stepping into a bit of a visualization. So, you know, getting into a bit of a meditative state, a mindful state. Then once we're there, like, imagine yourself floating through space. So you're out in the void. It's just you, you and the stars and the planets and whatever else out there. Like, no other human. You're just floating. You're safe. You are simply you. You know, like, in that energy, if you were to really, really step into that and to see, to visualize that experience of Just being by your own self in the world or in the universe. Who are you? And I love to ask that question from that energy of with everything removed, with society removed, with my family removed, with expectations removed, with my work removed, with my past removed. Who am I?

That's—

it's a loaded question. And it's one that we ask ourselves over and over and over again. But why we ask ourselves that is that's helping us to see like, okay, if I strip away everything as best as I can, and it takes, again, repetition, skill to be able to strip stuff away. But when we ask ourselves, like, who am I? Who am I actually? Then that's us helping ourselves to see our own values. So, like, the inner person that we are. So, uh, so if I were to do that, just as an example, like, what, what comes to mind is, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm compassionate. I'm kind.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I, uh, I'm, I'm, I just, love life. I'm, I'm, I, I just love to, love to feel joy. Like, um, I love to help people. Like, that's, that's who I know myself to be at the core. Um, and, and I know just from my belief system that, like, yeah, uh, you know, I, I know who I am and I know, uh, why I'm here. And, and when we can get so clear on who we are, then, then we can start to see that the, the other messages that have been placed to us are just total bullcrap. Like, you know, if we're so understanding of who we know ourselves to be, and if Aunt Susie is telling us that we're a fuckup, like, that those things just don't compute. That's Aunt Susie's perspective. And so may she have her space, but I'm going to have mine. So I think that's a good starting point of who are you? Who am I? And ask that question to yourself in a journal meditative space. Carve out 15, 20, 30 minutes, turn off your phone, no distractions, put on good music that makes you feel good. Good lighting, good candles, just create a nice environment and then sit down with yourself and ask yourself that question. And also have that be a question that's looming on your mind as you move about in the world. So as you do your errands throughout the day or as you go to your appointments or just live your life, interact with the people that you like interacting with, hold that question of who am I here? You know, when, um, uh, you know, when somebody makes a crude joke about, uh, a different group of people, um, do I, do I like that? And like, no, I don't, I don't like when people do that. That's not cool. You know, like, or, um, like, oh, I love when this, uh, like, uh, this person's so funny, they make me feel really good. Like, that's, that's a part of who I am. So, so we just want to kind of step into that energy of exploring our own self because The more that we get to know us and the more that we start aligning with that, like, that will be the check-in point that we use moving forward.

Mm-hmm.

So, so again, if, if, if, if some of my values are, are kindness, um, compassion, uh, respect for everybody, then I'm on the apps and this person is ignoring me, then I can go back to my beliefs on, okay, You know, um, that their disrespect toward me is not how I want to be interacting with other people. So I'm going to let that go. That says nothing. That doesn't feed my shame message. That's actually me saying, yeah, this person isn't for me. Like, like, I don't, I don't want this. So, so that's why we want to get really clear with ourself because then we can, uh, use that to deflect the shame when the shame tries to come in.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, for you listening, this is, this is also such an important step for recovery is defining who am I going to be now?

Mm-hmm. Right.

I always say it's your, the goal here is not to quit meth. It's to become the highest and best expression of yourself.

Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

So I, I think I like what you're saying about just start with values. I, I like saying, just start with 3 values. What do you stand for? You know, mine is honesty, compassion, and love. And so I can ask myself all day, you're about to say something to somebody through, through text or through a response. Is it honest? Is it compassionate? Is it loving? You know, is, is what you're doing, uh, like scrolling on, on an app?

Yeah.

You know, for more than an hour. Is this honest? Am I being honest with myself about why I'm here? Am I being compassionate with those that I'm interacting with? You know, because I, you know, if I get on the apps, I'm just like, I just want you to know I'm not interested. You know, like I go a little too far with it because that's what I want people to say, you know. But anyway, but you pick 3 values and then you can then Assess yourself all day long. Am I in alignment with who I am or not? Right? So I like that. That's, that's what you're going to do for shame, um, for sexual empowerment, as Coach Kevin is a sexual empowerment coach, and just what you're going to do to set yourself up for the rest of your life to be your highest self. And your highest self does not live with shame messages, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So what did I miss today, Coach Kevin Martin, that you wish I would have talked— do you want to talk about your retreats?

Uh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This conversation has been amazing. Um, it's been just so fruitful and such a good, such a good discussion.

Um, yeah, good.

Yeah, so I, um, yeah, I'm leading some retreats. So one coming up in October in Portland is the first one.

Okay.

Um, and then I'll be replicating them and continuing them. My goal is to start taking them to different parts of the country so that way we can meet people where they're at and it can all come together because there is something powerful about coming together in physical community.

Yeah.

But the retreats are a weekend of coaching workshops, of community, of connection. And I have— it's titled From Shame to Self-Love is the name of the retreat.

Yeah.

And that's the, that's the journey. So, um, starting with some workshops about identifying shame, uh, releasing it, letting it go, and then how can we start to replace it, uh, with, um, with different tools. So that's some of the things that we'll be doing, like, uh, exploring our initial sexual experiences, like what's the story that we We started telling ourselves from them, um, how we ran with that story. Um, you think going into like building our sexual self-care plans, so like how we can, uh, integrate our authentic sexuality throughout our days, throughout our week. Uh, really, really cool. So I'm excited, excited about that. Yeah.

The—

there's one coming up in Portland in October. Um, then Here in Hawaii in February and then Austin, Texas in June.

Wow. Okay, good. We can find that on your website, I'm sure. Um, okay. So in the discussion, did I miss anything? Is there anything you, you wish we would've talked about?

I don't think so. I, I, that was, that was great. I, yeah, I feel, I, I, I loved it. I feel like that was such, so rich and gave a good, uh, that was great. I loved it.

Good, good. Do you recommend any books for our listeners?

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Rebel Love is one of my favorite books. Rebel Love by Dr. Chris Donahue. Okay, so good and really helpful for starting to see new perspectives about, about sex, about dating.

Hmm.

The book is all about taking society's rules about sex and debunking them, kind of throwing them away, disrupting them. So it's really, really good. It just starts to, to help ourselves check in with our own self of, oh, how do, like, how do I feel about the type of sex that I'm having? Like, what are the rules that I feel I need to live by? Where does that come from? How can I let that go if that's not mine? So it actually works too. But yeah, favorites I recommend all the time.

Nice. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. All right, guys, if you want to join in the conversation, you know what to do. You can add— I like to just— if you can add a thread on YouTube, that's the easiest way to do it. You can also comment on Spotify. You can also just shoot Coach Kevin Martin, a— I don't know why I keep saying your full name. I just don't know why it just rolls off the tongue. It's, it's a, a name that I can pronounce easily. Yay. Um, but shoot Kevin a message on Instagram. Are you on TikTok too?

Uh, I, I am. I am. I'm a bit better with, uh, Instagram. My more adult self knows that one a little bit better.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's easy on the eyes to look at your Instagram, um, as I showed earlier. So good for you.

Thank you.

Be comfortable in your skin. Um, but yeah, shoot, shoot Kevin a DM if you have any questions and, and work with him, please. And these retreats sound really good too. Um, all right, guys, if you have any, um, other topics around this you want to talk about, or you want to suggest something that we have missed in the podcast, please let me know. You know where to find me. And otherwise, I'll see you next week.