EP 2:30 The Gift of Rock Bottom with Kevin

Well, I really have to share that because people need to see that because so many times people think, oh, you can have a life after addiction, but it's not going to be all that great. And I wanted them to see not only can it be great, it can be better than you ever imagined.

Yeah. Yeah. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system And/or your support network. Let's go. All right. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for choosing the Aftermath Podcast. Your time is valuable, and I know there's a billion podcasts to listen to. So you chose this one, and I appreciate that. We do not have— we don't have any sponsors here, but what I would ask you for is the currency of your engagement. So please subscribe, like, share the podcast, listen to it on— if you can listen to it twice, once on Apple and once on Spotify if you want, just so we can get the algorithm saying, hey, people like this podcast, so we can get it out to more people who really would benefit from hearing the topics. So thank you again. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide that comes out for every episode. The link to that will be in the show notes. You can get that in your inbox, in your email, if you subscribe to my blog at drdallasbragg.com. All right, no, no further ado. I met our guest today on Instagram. His, uh, his feed, his page caught my eye. As you will see later, it will catch anybody's eye, I think, man or woman, really. But Kevin has a triumphant story of chemsex recovery. And today he's going to introduce himself, but today he's a, he's a model. And, um, I'm wondering what his skincare routine is as I look at the pictures, but we'll get to that later. Maybe that's, that's a, that's a, that's a subtopic. But Kevin Davis, can you tell us about yourself?

Um, first of all, thank you for having me on here. Um, my name is Kevin Davis. I'm 56 years old. And I will be 7 and a half years clean from meth next month.

Yeah.

So, um, I, um, about a year, uh, into my recovery, I was, uh, approached by a photographer and he asked me to do a shoot for romance book covers. Um, my initial response was, you know, romance book covers. I thought of Fabio, you know?

Fabio. Yeah, Fabio. That's right.

I was like, people do that, you know? So, uh, and then I was just thinking, this guy's just gotta be hitting on me. But then, um, I, uh, looked at his site and he was really legit, one of the best. And, um, I almost backed out because that was sort of my go-to, backing out of anything outta my comfort zone.

Mm-hmm.

The old me would've backed out for sure. And, uh, I decided, you know, this is, this is a new me. I want to do things differently. Um, so I decided to step outta my comfort zone and do the shoot. And luckily I did because it sort of put me on a whole new path. Um, I've been modeling for romance book covers for about 6 years. Um, I've sold over 230 book covers now. And I just moved back to Atlanta about 6 months ago. And now I'm working my way into sort of the fashion industry now. And so I'll be walking in, uh, Atlanta Fashion Week in about 2 weeks.

Nice. Yeah. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Yeah, I, when I saw your, your, your, um, Instagram page, I was like, romance novel covers, right?

Right.

I mean, I think of my, my grandma, my aunts, you know, they would have the romance novels, um, just, you know, piled up. Um, and, you know, I used to kind of fantasize about those men when I was growing up.

I imagine my following is mostly gay men and horny grandmas.

Yeah, I love horny grandmas. I love that. So, I mean, I guess in this day and age that, you know, we still have paper books, but I'm, I'm also guessing like on Kindle you still need a cover, right?

Right. Correct.

For the book, right?

Correct. And, and they sell most of the, uh, romance books on Amazon now. So.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. It's interesting that, you know, with AI, because I, I've seen all these ads for the, your new AI boyfriend. You know, that they, that they wouldn't just create an AI man. So good for you for, you know, beating out the AI.

Things are, things are sort of taking that turn. We're, um, getting less and less, uh, sales for real people. Uh, you know, photographers and models are feeling it right now because people can just generate their own. You know, they can take, they can take my photo and somebody else's photo and generate something. Um, and they're really sort of stealing property from other people to do it.

But, you know, Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, congratulations for 7 and a half years.

Thank you. Thank you.

And can you tell us more about your story? How long did you use? What was your story like?

So I used for about 20 years or so. Um, it originally started, you know, early on when I first came out in the clubs, I would do some recreational stuff. Mostly like X and things like that. But then, you know, meth was very prevalent and then I gave it a try a couple times and it was, at the time I didn't realize I was undiagnosed with ADHD.

Hmm.

So it was sort of like the perfect drug for me. It felt like it made me feel focused. It made me feel Like, you know, I could get projects done and things like that. So I used it mostly just for things like that, just so that I could focus on something and get it done. It eventually became more sexual later on as I started having sex using it, but it didn't immediately become a sexual thing for me.

Hmm.

I think when I started, when I gradually moved to smoking it, it seems like when it really took it up a step. As far as the sexual thing, my growing up, I had a really, really uber religious family. You know, sex in general was sort of a taboo thing. So I was never comfortable with sex in general. So the idea of gay sex was even worse. So I had a lot of really major hangups as far as sex. So sex before I ever did Drugs really was not that great for me. You know, I had all these voices in my head and all these insecurities and things like that. So I feel like when, when I started using meth more for sex is when sex became good for the first time. It sort of quiet— made those voices quiet down. It made me feel more, more confident, more, you know, like it lasts longer. All these things that— before I couldn't do, I could do. So there was no way that I wanted to have sex without it after that because it was never really good before. And now it was super intense and it felt amazing. So after I started having sex with it, I never really had sex without it again. If I didn't, if I wasn't high, I wasn't going to have sex. So it became a real, you know, you know, like, um, it rewired my brain completely to where eventually I wouldn't even get aroused unless I was high.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting in your, I was reading back in our messages on Instagram and you used the word de-wired.

Yeah.

Your brain, your brain was de-wired for sex. Yeah. I hadn't heard that before, but that's, that's maybe a more accurate description. Yeah.

It's like, um, when I, when I got, um, in recovery, once I got clean, I just didn't really have the sex drive anymore. But I did notice like right after I got outta rehab, I thought, I always thought, well, maybe I can, get that sex drive going again. And I put in a porn and immediately started thinking about using.

Ah.

And I realized how intertwined they were. And that scared me because I thought, shoot, I can't allow this to put me back on that same path. So I really just stayed completely celibate and tried to not even think about sex for a good, you know, 4 or 5 years. And then just recently at the 7-year mark has— have I been able to sort of like get that spark going again somewhat.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I think I just needed to have some new experiences that were not with using and just slowly sort of try to get it back. Um, you know, 'cause it, it scared me to try to jump right back into that 'cause I thought, well, I might just go back down that same road. Um, but you know, I feel like it's, it's starting to come back, so I'm just trying to take it slow and, um, not allow myself to get super stressed out about it either. 'Cause I feel like I'll get in my head and then that will make me want to use again. You know, it might trigger me.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let's talk more about that. I want to put a little pin in that one for sure, but I want to go back to a couple of things you said. And it's interesting. I'm getting ready to, I'm scheduling another, we did one podcast on ADHD. I'm scheduling another with another psychotherapist about neurodivergency and addiction. You know, that's a rising topic. We see, because we're seeing more and more neurodivergent people, um, in general, but also in chemsex addiction and meth addiction, you know, is this, this new, these new, the newer divergent guys, like you're saying, is you used it first to focus. You kind of used it medicinal in a medicinal way. Um, and, and I think that that's, that's common. You know, I'm talking to more and more men who are like, I, yeah, this is.

Yeah.

I do it for sex, but also I need it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm on ADHD medication now. Okay. And I was able to get back on it after rehab and it luckily is not a trigger for me at all. It doesn't make me want to take extra or make me want to do meth when I use it. It just makes me feel normal. It seems like it's a different high for me. It's really, well, it's not a high for me. It's like I feel normal when I do this. If I take too much Adderall, I don't like that feeling. So luckily it, some people I know after meth addiction can't even do any kind of stimulant.

That's right.

You know?

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing which, which one you're on too, because that was going to be my next question. Is it Adderall?

Well, it's, it's I was on Adderall. Right now they have me on, um, dextroamphetamine, which is a generic, but I think it has one component of Adderall.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think it's important that, you know, some, some, some guys I talk to are scared to death to take Adderall or, or some are taking it and it's triggering them. But, but I've heard from plenty of men who say Adderall saved my life. Adderall saved me from chemsex addiction.

I feel like I was self-medicating. to that part of it. And so now I don't feel the need. And when I'm at— when I am on Adderall, it makes me feel calm and content. And I don't— my mind's not going, so I'm not thinking about needing to do something. And I feel like before, when I was unmedicated, I had this constant sort of— I was not content. I needed to feel like I was needing to do something. And that caused me to want to go and I feel like, you know, maybe go out and party or whatever it, whatever it was.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I hear that from men too, a lot of, I can't even sit and watch a movie or I can't sit still for a second and I can't stand being by myself or whatever. There's this like this, this urgency.

Right.

Interesting.

Exactly.

So the Adderall just kind of takes you to baseline, it sounds like.

It does. It does. It makes me feel calm and it's like I'm completely fine to be doing what I'm doing in the moment instead of my mind going thinking about other things.

Hmm. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's important for us to hear. Um, also the porn, the porn use, the porn triggers, um, the slow sex start. So You know, for you listening, there's this big hurry for us to get right back in porn because that's what we're used to using to get off. You know, it's a quick way. And I would say, I would say to you in recovery, there's no quick way. It's, there's no shortcut. Meth is a shortcut. You know, chemsex is a shortcut. Like you said, you had, and this is very common too, these sexual insecurities. You were in your head so much. Yeah.

Yeah.

About sex that you couldn't enjoy it. So common, right? Meth is the shortcut to bypass all of that instantly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and, um, it also, I feel like because it made it seem so intense and amazing, even normal sex, even if I'd had normal good sex, it wouldn't have measured up.

Mm-hmm.

But eventually, because of, you know, like the more I used and the more I was around other users, you know, like when you get 2 high people together to have sex or whatever, so many times you're not on the same plane. You're like, you're on different levels of high or whatever. So it can go wrong so many times. And so in my head, After watching porn for a long time, you start having unrealistic expectations of what sex really should be like.

Yeah.

And if it doesn't measure up, that can really distort your view. So it might've gone really well, but in my head, if it didn't measure up to what I was so used to with porn, I think in my head I was in my head again thinking it didn't go well, you know?

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. And for these guys who have grown up with pornography in their hand, You know, and access to, you know, Raw Fuck Club. And I've mentioned all these, these studios. I need to stop giving them credit on the podcast. But these, these studios who, that, you know, they, their, their sex is modeled after what you get in a chemsex scene. Okay.

Right.

Um, and then when, like you said, you get hungry for that and that's what you want, that's what you think you're going to get, right? And, um, that's just not normal.

It's not.

It's not normal. Um, Yeah. Okay. I wanna talk about your sex, your, your, your journey with sex, but your, what was it that, you know, we always have to ask kind of what was it that triggered you, triggered you, triggered you to stop? You know, what, what was it that brought you into recovery?

So I, I finally, um, got arrested for possession. Okay. Um, I, um, I was living in Atlanta and my, I grew up in Alabama, so all my family's in Alabama. So I went all that time without my family even know I used drugs.

Hmm.

Even though the last 6 months before I got arrested, I was jobless, homeless, crashing on people's couches or sleeping in my car.

Hmm.

Um, so My quality of life had just really gone downhill. And, but the reason every time I thought about maybe getting help, I thought about, well, if I do, everyone's going to know this dirty secret I've been able to keep for so long. And because I had had years of chronic pain as well, that's really when my using went from recreational to everyday. I started having a lot of neck pain, which 10 years later I eventually had 2 neck surgeries. But by that point I was already addicted, so I continued to use afterward. But I was able to keep it quiet or At least a majority of people didn't know I was using except for the people that I hung out with. And if— but everybody knew that I was dealing with chronic pain. So if they had known that I had an addiction to painkillers, they probably wouldn't have a problem. But because I have IBS-C, I just can take 1 or 2 pills and I'm constipated. So I don't, I was never able to really take those for pain. So I also looked for other things. Meth was something I already, it already worked for me as far as the, you know, the ADHD and everything else. So I ended up just using that whenever I was hurting.

Mm-hmm.

And so I started using it a lot more, but what I didn't really realize too is that, you know, I would get really high And as when you get really high, your muscles tense up, you know, you're not sleeping well and everything like that. So when you come down, you're hurting even worse. So I'd have this rebound pain and then I would just have to use again. So that's how it really got really, really bad closer to the end. But I just, I never would get help because I thought, well, I don't want people to know I'm a junkie. You know?

Mm-hmm.

And, and I was also so afraid that if I do go get help, I will still be hurting. So I know I'll need to use again.

Mm-hmm.

But then everybody's gonna know my business. And I just, so I just wouldn't do it.

Wow.

So the best thing that ever happened to me was I, I got arrested for possession. Um, I stayed in jail for 50 days. I wasn't able to, uh, hide it anymore. And so the 50 days I was in there, I was able to sort of like get it all outta my system. Part of my sentencing, I decided to do rehab. You know, by that point I was just so excited to be at rehab after being locked up for 50 days. So, you know, like that felt amazing to have my own room, my own bathroom, you know, all that. So at that point I was really, sort of had a really good attitude about it. I was hopeful that I could— I realized this is probably going to be my— this could be my one and only chance at a second chance. So I was going to try to do everything I could. My family was shocked, but they were very supportive. Luckily, I'd never burned any bridges with them. I didn't steal from them. I didn't do all the stuff that a lot of people do. So I still had the support of my family, which was great. So I did rehab. I got arrested in Tuscaloosa when I was visiting someone, so I stayed there for rehab. And then I just decided I don't know anyone here. I'm going to change my phone number and start over here. So I stayed there for about almost seven years and just rebuilt my life.

Nice. Yeah, I mean, going to going to jail sometimes is. You know, that's for me too, was the best thing that could happen to me. It's the only thing that was gonna stop me.

Yeah. I mean, I, I thought at the time that, you know, my life was over. I thought there's, there's no way out of this mess. I didn't see any way out.

Mm-hmm.

Even in, in jail, I was thinking, well, am I gonna kill myself? I'd never even thought that before. You know, like I just couldn't imagine having to, you know, no one knew yet. Like I was, I sat in jail for 2 days before I even called my family. 'Cause I was just, I just couldn't get there, you know? So, but once I did and once my family was supportive, I kind of realized, okay, this is my chance to try to get better. And once I got all the drugs outta my system, I actually started noticing that the pain was not as bad.

Mm-hmm.

And it eventually started getting better and now it's just a discomfort. So I realized it was a rebound pain I was getting from being high.

Hmm. Isn't that something?

Yeah.

You were— it's another way.

It's another way for your body to tell you you have to have those drugs.

Yeah. Right, right, right. We, we'd use to, in your case, literally numb the pain. Yes. That we cause by the drug.

Yes. Yes.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it's, you know, emotional pain, Whatever it is, loneliness or isolation or whatever, need for connection, you know, whatever we're doing the drug for, we're causing more loss of it. So we need more of the drug to get more of it.

Right.

What a, what a cycle, right? What a cycle. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask how your family reacted. And so they, were they surprised though? Because if you were, yeah, they were very, very much so.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay.

Um, you know, like they had, I just thought that they would have suspected by that point and just were in denial, but they really just didn't have a clue.

I see.

Yeah.

I see. Well, your age too probably has something to do with that, right? You're late 40s. Maybe so.

Maybe so. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Same here.

And because I, because I had never really Uh, you know, like it wasn't something I had done when I was young that they knew about anyway. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah, they just didn't expect it at that point.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna point something out too, the, um, perspective, right? Like, it's interesting. There's, there's, you got, you listeners, some of you will go to rehab and you think it's horrible. You think you're trapped. You think, you know, you, you, you, you kind of put this label and, and story on it. Um, but if, like with you, Kevin, you spent 50 days in jail. So when you got to rehab, you were grateful to be there.

Oh, completely. You know, the, the situation that happened for me was exactly what I needed. Um, I needed the fact that I sat there in jail for 50 days. I was in there with, you know, 50, 60 other guys. Uh, some of them were in there for murder. I mean, it's just, I had never been in trouble before. I needed that experience and I needed time to get the drugs outta my system completely also. And I needed time to sit there and think about it all. And then, you know, when I got to rehab, you know, I got there and there were so many people there that didn't wanna be there. And I was ecstatic to be there at that point.

Yeah.

And it is really all about perspective. Um, so that, that was, That was like sort of the best scenario for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, if we could just, like, I, I remember when I was homeless at the very beginning, you know, and I told this story on the podcast about working at this damn, damn taco restaurant. Right. And I was finding places to stay the night or whatever. Um, I remember walking, it was like 2:30 in the morning and just walking down the, the street in, or the road or street in Charlotte. Uptown because this lady had let me use her massage— I don't know, her massage parlor or something for a few nights. I got to sleep in there.

Right, right.

She felt sorry for me. Anyway, you know, I'm, I'm walking and it's the summer and I was just so grateful. I was so grateful to have a job and I was so grateful for the air and the stars. And I was looking around and I was like, so happy. That was one of the happiest moments Of my life and I had nothing.

Right.

You know, I had nothing. And I just think if we could just get ourselves back to that, that place of right after a relapse or right after you're— when you're homeless, when, when you first start getting in recovery and you have nothing to lose.

Yes.

If you could get yourself in that state of mind, how much better life would be and how much, you know, you're grateful for everything.

Everything.

Yeah.

Yeah. And the— hitting rock bottom for me was the best thing too. It's like, uh, I needed that. I needed to have a place where everything I got was a blessing from that point. You know, like I had nothing. I didn't want to go back to jail. Um, I had seen all my friends get really comfortable with going to jail. It was part of their comfort zone. And I'm like, I don't want to become that person.

Yeah.

And also, I didn't want to go back to being homeless. Luckily, I had a car, which made it so much easier. At least I could sleep in my car, I could get around or something like that. But I knew people that were sleeping on a sidewalk if they had to. But, you know, so for me to be in rehab and have my own room and have my own TV and have my phone back and all this kind of stuff, it just felt amazing. And I was so thankful for that. And then to know that when I got out, I was going to be able to try to get my own place and, you know, that just felt amazing. So my perspective was not about what I'm— I don't have. It was like what I'm getting, what I have, the possibilities that are about to come up for me. So it really changed everything around for me. And I've really tried to keep that rock bottom perspective.

Hmm.

Even now, you know, like whenever, whenever Like I got that photo shoot offered to me and I almost backed out.

Mm-hmm.

And then I took it. And if I, you know, if I hadn't have taken that, none of this would've happened for me. And that was huge for me cuz I thought so many times I've had opportunities that I ghosted because I was afraid to, what if, what if I can't do it? What if they say no? What, what if, what if, what if? And after hitting rock bottom, I sort of lost that. It's like, if they say no, oh well. You know, I have an opportunity, I'm gonna take it.

Yeah.

'Cause I have nothing else. I have nothing to lose. Yes.

Yes.

Who cares what people think anymore? You know, I didn't have all these feelings in my head that I used to. And I feel like that's why you see a lot of people in recovery who do big things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, they go after things that they never would've gone before. And that's sort of how I've been.

Sure.

Um, I've just, I now just, if I wanna try to do something, I go after it and try it. And most of the time it works out.

Yeah.

Um, and I, you know, the more I do that, the more confidence I get. Um, and, and Things that used to not be in my comfort zone slowly start becoming part of my comfort zone, you know. But, um, now I'm always trying to find ways to step out of my comfort zone just a little bit because I get too comfortable and I don't think that's a good thing.

Yeah, I love— yeah, I, I really love that. Thank you for saying that because it is that rock bottom. I, I wrote Rock Bottom, um, That rock bottom perspective. I'm going to steal that. I'll probably write a newsletter on that. But yeah, that rock bottom perspective where you have nothing to lose. What do you have to lose by trying?

Right. Even if they say no, you learned from it, or maybe something else good might come out of it. But just trying makes you feel confident. Okay, I can try that again. And maybe you'll try it differently next time, or maybe it wasn't even, you know, it wasn't what you wanted it to begin with, but at least you learned by trying, you know? So, um, I've, anytime something scares me now and I get that old feeling of wanting to back out, I'm like, crap, I've got to do this now.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah. I like, thank you for saying that because I think that's good for listeners to pay attention to is When you're, when an opportunity's presented, if your first thought is why it won't work, right? Or, or why you will fail.

Or I can't do this, or I'm not good enough.

Yeah. Those are just protective thoughts, protective parts of you, you know? But if you have those thoughts, that's a clear sign that you need to take a step. You need to take a step forward in, right into it.

Right. And I feel like people in addiction, part of our comfort zone is using and part of our comfort zone is only hanging out with the people we use with.

Yeah.

And so our bubble gets smaller and smaller of what we're comfortable with. And I wouldn't even go hang out with someone that didn't use, or if someone asked me to do something and I knew, like a hookup or anything, and I knew they didn't use, I would usually back out. Because all of a sudden I wasn't comfortable being around them anymore because, you know, I wouldn't go to a movie. I didn't do all the things that I used to do before use. I would end up staying at home by myself watching porn most of the time.

Yeah.

Instead of hooking up with someone, you know, it's just my comfort zone became smaller and smaller.

Yeah.

And so now I've tried to just keep expanding it because Um, you know, like before my life was, every day was the same. It felt like, well, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm going to use or look for drugs so that I can, or look for somebody I can hang out with. And it was just always the same thing. And now it's like I have these goals and I go after opportunities and it feels nice not knowing what the future holds.

Mm-hmm.

Because it could be a lot of new things.

Mm-hmm.

And before it was just always the same. You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Love it. Well, speaking of opportunities, you were approached, you said, a year into recovery by a photographer. And like, like, yes, I, it's funny you said it because, you know, I've been, I have messages from some photographers who just want to fuck, right? I mean, you did kind of like think that, but this was a legit, like, I need some, he needed somebody For romance book covers and specifically saw you.

Is this right? He, he hit me up and said, um, I, uh, I was, I was in a, uh, a Facebook group. Uh, it's like guys, gay guys who like are into bodybuilding and things like that.

Okay.

Fitness. And they were, they would post about their progress and things like that. So I would post, I had posted in there. about some of my progress, but I would also share some of my story and I showed like pictures of me, uh, in rehab and pictures now.

Mm-hmm.

And that type of thing. So he hit me up and he said, and, uh, he's like, um, I, I love your look and I love your story. He goes, the silver, silver fox look is really big right now. He goes, I need a new silver fox model. Would you like to do one? And so, you know, that was, you know, I had so many insecurities from all the years of doing drugs.

Yeah.

You know, my, the insecurities about myself, you know, you have people who, you know, who just take advantage of you and different things like that. And so I would always make it about myself when things would happen, like, you know, I'm not good enough. And even other junkies don't even want to, Or they're just using me for what they can get from me, that kind of thing. So my self-esteem was really low and I didn't really feel great about how I looked all that time. So when he hit me up, that was, all these insecurities started going in my head again.

Yeah.

And I was like, nope, I'm not that person anymore. This is just an amazing opportunity to shoot with an amazing photographer. If I don't sell a single book cover, who cares? I just want to take this opportunity. It's still a huge honor that he asked me. So that's right. I decided to do it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting that you, you didn't, it's not like you were pursuing it. It came to you and you still were thinking you weren't good enough.

Right, exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

And, and, and I still, I still have those thoughts go through my head. You You know, like, um, people, you know, like I go to book signings and authors will, will fly me to, uh, a book signing event and I will sit at a table and sign books and take photos with readers. And, and it's so weird because—

I love that.

It feels like I'm a celebrity in that world.

Yeah.

And, and then I, I walk outta there and I'm like, Who is this person? Like, that's not me. This is not my life. You know, it's like, but you know, like I, I left this one, um, I had this one event I went to and, um, after the, after the main, uh, book signing, they had like a, uh, a ball kind of party thing afterward. And, uh, I had a photo shoot the next morning, but I went for a little while.

Mm-hmm.

And the readers and stuff there were, you know, they'd had a few drinks and so they were a lot more, uh, aggressive than they were maybe at the signing. So people were coming up to me and talking to me and asking for my autograph and take pictures with me and telling me how they loved following me and, and reading my, about my story and that I've helped them and maybe a family member that's, that's an addict. So, you know, it was, it was very overwhelming.

Mm-hmm.

And so I left the party. Got on the elevator and just started crying. You know, it was like, it was like I was sleeping in my car like 4 years earlier and this is my life.

Wow.

You know, it just felt so overwhelmingly like blessed.

Yeah. Wow. Love it. Just all, all because you said yes.

Yes. Yes, exactly. Um, whenever, Whenever he asked me to do that shoot too, it was like perfect timing because, you know, like I really needed that, I think. You know, like when you're using, you spend so much time and energy and focus on using and finding the drugs and whatever it is. But, you know, there's so much energy developed, you know, towards using. And so, you know, it was nice. You know, I had, I'd been working out and trying to, to really focus a lot of that into my diet or working out and this and that. But this just, just gave me something even more to work towards.

Mm-hmm.

You know, all of a sudden I'm having shoots and so I, I need to be even in better shape. And I also finally had something that was, really amazing happened for me that I didn't wanna mess up. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And anytime I thought about using, I thought, no, I could sabotage all this. And I have something good. I have a good life. And I know so many people get clean and their life just doesn't seem any better. And I understand like their circumstances, maybe they didn't have a family, maybe they end up having to go back and living with some of the same people that they used to live with that were, that were, you know, it was an unhealthy relationship or family that they had a toxic relationship with. So I know how hard it would be to stay clean in that type of situation because you're like, my life's no better, so why not use?

Right.

You know, but I had something that was like, oh, I have such an amazing thing going right now. I don't want to mess this up. So it was so nice to have that. Um, to kind of keep me going and keep me on my path.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And if you're listening and you say, yeah, but I don't, you know, I don't have the body for a romance cover novel, or I'm, you know, I don't have those cover opportunities. The thing is, is that you can also latch on to a vision for your future in the same way you had that, right? If you, if you have a strong viscerally emotional connection to a vision of who you want to be, you can latch onto that. And that can also say, you know, when you're, when you wanna use, do I wanna be that person, my future self, or do I wanna be my past self? I get to, I get to decide right now. Right.

And I, and I feel like, I feel like you, you, you still have to keep that rock bottom perspective.

Yeah.

And, and whenever you start thinking about what you don't have or what's not going well for you, that's when you're gonna use. But you have to then go, but I used to not even have a place to sleep and now I do. Or I used to not have a way to even get around. I didn't have any money, but now I do. So you just really have to start keeping up with all the things that you have that you didn't have before.

Yeah.

And that helps that perspective.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly right. Anywhere I worked after in recovery, you know, people would be bitching about their job or their boss. Yeah. And I'd be like, fuck, who gives a fuck? I, you know, I overcame crystal meth.

Right.

Just throw whatever you want at me, cuz it ain't gonna be anything like what I've done. Right. And I think that's such a strong affirmation. You know, if I can stop crystal meth, I can do that. I can handle that. I can face that. Right.

Right.

You have, you really have to, you, you really have to go back and pull that, that drive, that all of that, that gratitude, all of that forward and, and put and, and push you through some of the dark periods or some of the negative thoughts, like you're saying.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, when, when I, uh, you know, I started over completely, you know, like I was, in some apartments that were, you know, very kind of rough. And, you know, at first it was really hard to get a job. But, you know, like, I had a place to stay though, you know?

Yeah.

And I had a car. And, you know, I wasn't— you know, like, I would be laying in my apartment watching TV. And I was like, there were so many nights I was like in my car and it was cold or it was hot and I was hungry. And I just would love to have had a place to lay on a couch and watch TV.

Yeah.

You know, and I have that. So it was, it was like, it was, I always, I would always try to focus on things like that. And it really kept me grounded. And, and, you know, people always thought I would, well, don't, don't focus so much on the past. I'm like, but you need to remember that stuff.

That's right.

It's good to remember that stuff because it makes you grateful about where you're at now.

That's right.

Um, and so when my, when my following really started to grow after I started doing the modeling thing, um, my Instagram just exploded. Like, it was like, it, it was like I would get 10,000 new, new members, uh, or followers like a month. It was just really kind of crazy how it grew. And so I was like, okay, I've been given this platform for a reason.

Mm-hmm.

So I have to use it. for the right thing.

Mm-hmm.

So whenever I started, you know, you know, just sharing my story more, um, you know, it was like the reaction I got was amazing. You know, the, the love and support that came my way, you know, and, and it used to be this dirty secret I had, and now I was taking ownership of it. And I, the more I shared, the more I connected with people. the more it freed me. And so I shared more of the good, bad, the ugly.

Yeah.

And as I did, people would be like, thank you for being so vulnerable. Thank you for sharing that because I needed to hear that. And they were like, I thought you had this perfect life as a model, whatever. I had no idea, you know? And so it freed me because I took control of the narrative. And it used to have so much power over me.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause I was so afraid of what people would think if they found out stuff and they couldn't use it against me anymore because, yeah, I used it the way I wanted to.

Yeah.

Um, and it, it also kept me accountable because I was putting it all out there. Yeah. So if I slipped up, everybody knew. Yeah. Um, I was in recovery, so you know, it's like I knew kind of people were watching me and it's like I didn't want to let them down either. So it was kind of like nice to have that as sort of a deterrent to even want to mess that up as well.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so, um, it was just really nice to kind of like share that. Um, and also when I was an addict, I never saw anyone make it out. I saw people go to rehab, go to jail, Get out, start all over again.

Yeah.

If they did make it out, they, you never heard from 'em again. So they wanted to kind of keep it a secret. So I determined I wanted to be the person that I needed to see when I was in addiction. And then when my life became so like, you know, like such a stark contrast from being homeless to doing what I'm doing, I was like, well, I really have to share that because people need to see that. Because so many times people think, oh, you can have a life after addiction, but it's not going to be all that great. And I wanted them to see not only can it be great, it can be better than you ever imagined.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think, you know, there's so much stigma and there's fear that we have about admitting that we use meth. Like you said earlier, like it'd be okay if you were addicted to painkillers. Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's meth. It's meth. So it's dirty, nasty, and you're in the dark.

Right. And I thought, well, they won't believe I'm using it for pain. They'll be sure you are. You know, it's like in my head, I just assumed like they're gonna look at me as a junkie instead. But then whenever I started sharing my story, I would tell people, I was like, I want you, when you think of a junkie, instead of thinking of that person down on the, at the gas station that was asking for money, picture me.

Yeah.

Because I was that person, the same person that you're thinking, you know, is, you know, that you, you're saying all these amazing things about. I'm that person. So don't think of people who are on drugs As a junkie, it's a bad thing. There's someone who has just had a really hard time in life.

Yep.

And they're struggling.

Yep.

So they're not a bad person. That's right.

Because that's right. Yeah. Thank you for that too.

Yeah.

There's one thing about this, about chemsex, is that it's all walks of life. You know, it definitely is not a respecter of persons, right?

No.

I mean, right. Um, There's doctors. I have doctors, I have lawyers, I have CEOs in my program. Um, you know, it— they're— we're all, we're all hurting in some way.

Right.

Right. Um, but I love that the horny grandmas also get to have the context of seeing you, you know, your story.

Right, right.

Makes you really real, you know? Yeah.

And, and a lot of them have told me that, you know, like, thank you so much because my grandchild is going through something like this. I now know how to like to talk to them. Uh, and they're, or they're like, I share your, I share your, your posts with them and that kind of thing. So that makes me feel really good.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing for that. So something you said too about controlling the narrative, you know, that's the thing is if we don't control the narrative, the queer community or the, the heterosexual, heteronormative community at large will control it for you.

Right, right.

You know, you, everyone else around you will fill in the blanks and tell your story for you if you don't control the narrative. And, and I think there's a difference too. If, so what I've been, I've been hearing a lot about, um, guys, and, and this is something that I did at first when I first started dating, I would just on my profile and on the first date, you know, I'm a meth, I'm a, I'm a former meth addict, blah, blah, blah. I have, I have HIV, you know, I would just go down all the, I have kids, blah, blah, blah. I would go down every, It's like checkbox.

It's almost like you're protecting yourself.

Yes.

So that, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's shame, but it was outta shame.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Right.

Here's, here's all my red flags. If you will still pay attention to me, I'm lucky to have you.

You're, I'm the same way because you're so afraid that you're gonna like them and then they're gonna find out and then you're gonna be hurt because, right, you feel rejected.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a difference between Sharing your story from a place of shame and sharing your story in, and again, to control the narrative, to, to show, give hope to the hopeless.

Yeah.

You know, the, the guys out on the street now, you know, or, or the guy right now at the, at the chemsex party who doesn't want to be there, but he doesn't know how to stop.

Yeah.

Sorry. And, you know, and it just cannot see their way out of it, but they see you and they see this is possible.

Right.

Yeah. I love that.

And that's another reason why too, I've been really big on sharing the fact that, um, because, because they see my life, because they see me doing these sexy photo shoots with other models, they assumed I was like having this amazing sex life too. And I was like, you know what? I've been celibate. And they couldn't understand that. And I'm like, you know, not everybody's triggers are the same. Some people can't do certain things because it's triggered that I can do. You know, I can take a pain pill if I need to, if a doctor gives it to me. I could have a drink and it doesn't trigger me. I can have Adderall and it doesn't trigger me.

There you go.

But this did. So I had to stay away from sex. Everybody's, everybody's addiction is different. So everybody's recovery needs to be a little bit different just for them. Because we all really are, if we're honest with ourselves, we know what will trigger us.

Amen to all of that, sir. Amen to all of that, sir. Yes. So about your sexual journey, you were celibate, you said for like 4 or 5 years, 7 years later, you are getting into it. So you were saying earlier that You know, you kind of toyed with porn. You saw it was a trigger. You, you know, sex was a, it seems like maybe sex was a very slow start and you started to, to dab in it. So dabble in it. Can you tell us about that journey just a little bit? And if, if I'm, if I'm in your place, like if I'm in recovery and I am, I don't have a libido right now, um, that's, that's one, one stage. And the other stage is I'm getting my libido back, but I don't know even where to start. Yeah.

Yeah, this has been a long journey for me. Um, and there was always this part of me that was really, you know, I just focused on other parts of my life and, um, I was like, you know what, I really don't have a sex drive. And so why fight it? Um, and I kind of avoided it, I believe, in a way.

Uh-huh.

It was easy to avoid. But, but when I was living in Alabama, there was really no one I was interested in and hooking up with anyway. So it kind of made it easier. Uh, and it, I really just focused on me and I'm, I mean, I have gotten so much done that probably I wouldn't have if, if my focus had been distracted elsewhere. So it really was good in a way when I was celibate to you know, focus on me and not— I'm really bad when it comes to other people about losing myself and being what they want me to be and this kind of thing. So I was really nervous about hooking up with someone, really liking them, and losing some of the power that I felt like I had.

Hmm.

And I felt, I felt like, could that be dangerous to lose that? And I, I was a little afraid. So I felt like that was part of it. The other part was, um, I was afraid to put myself out there because I knew that everything wasn't really working just right.

Yeah.

And, and to put myself in a situation where I felt the other person was disappointed, all these feelings, I was so afraid all those negative feelings were to flood back in my head. And that would make me wanna use. So I just kind of avoided for years. When I got back to Atlanta, I realized, okay, there's people here that I probably will be attracted to, some people here that already know who, already know my story.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I felt like the way you would kind of go down your list of all the things that you wanted them to know about yourself.

Mm-hmm.

You know, before I'm even thinking about hooking up with someone now, I still feel like I need to just do this disclaimer.

Mm-hmm.

I'm, you know, where I'm at. Um, in a way, I feel like it is sort of protection, but also I want to go in there, if, if ever, if they, if they know my situation and they know that I'm still trying to work on things that, you know, I get in my head and think everything might not work the way I, Uh, I'm hoping it would, then it's not gonna feel as awkward and there's not gonna be as many expectations because, you know, if I get in there and I feel like I'm a disappointment cuz they're expecting it to be one thing and I couldn't perform. Um, I will get in my head again, you know?

Yes.

Uh, and it's like, because I haven't had any experiences really not using in so many years, I want the experiences I do have to be good ones and not feel like I left feeling it went horrible. 'Cause then I feel like that could just take me down the wrong road or make me decide not to even try again. Um, so I'm just trying to be really careful.

Okay.

The experiences I do have to try to not have, you know, to have low expectations going in. Like, You know, maybe, maybe just let them know, you know, maybe we can just do some making out, that kind of stuff at first or whatever. So it's, there's no expectations. I don't feel pressure.

Right.

And if more happens, great, but there's not going to be the expectation. So I'm just trying to be smart about the way I handle it right now. Um, not just to go to some random hookup type of thing, you know?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So there's some conversation that happens. Quite a bit.

And I also don't know, I also want to make sure that person's not going to be using, uh, cuz if I get that situation and I, even though they say they're not and I know they are, that could be really triggering, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting too, cuz we're gonna, I'm gonna show your Instagram page on the video in just a minute, but, um, I, I wonder what the pressure is for a man who looks and is built like you. To be super, you know, Superman in the bedroom.

Yeah.

There's expectations.

Right.

Right.

And you know, like I'm, I'm this, on most of my books, I'm daddy this, daddy that. So if they're wanting me to come in and be daddy, super daddy, daddy, whatever, you know, and I'm feeling extra pressure.

Yeah.

To take on that role. You know, that, that could be a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. Can't we, can't we all, can't any of us just have sex anymore?

Right, exactly.

I mean, the, the roles you have to play and the things you have to do and, you know, cuz you saw it, I don't know. Yeah. I don't wanna get into all that. Um, but it sounds like you're being very cautious. You're being very intentional.

Yeah.

You're not just jumping right out there.

Right.

Um, you are not setting yourself up for failure.

Right. And it's tough to know if I'm avoiding sometimes or if I'm just being careful, but I think I would still rather avoid than do something that's going to cause me to mess up or even to start having negative connotations about sex again, unless I'm using type of thing.

Yeah.

You know, if I have some really bad experiences, I'm gonna go, see, I can't have good experiences unless I'm using. And so I'm really just trying to have some really good experiences that maybe doesn't have to be about full-on sex, you know, just so that I can start feeling sexual again and it go well and then move on from there, you know?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

'Cause it seems like, seems like when I am comfortable with somebody, A bit. It's like as I get more comfortable, then things get better.

Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, like getting with— now, now I'm gonna have to sort of like get comfortable with— I really kind of only been with one person at this point, uh, again, that I've gotten comfortable with. So now I feel like I need to start getting comfortable with it being someone new, you know, type of thing. And not just start getting in my comfort zone with that one person and thinking, oh, I can't do it with anybody else, you know? So I'm just trying to slowly expand on what my comfort, what my comfort zone is because, you know, the idea of dating, of hooking up became such a stress for me thinking about it after not doing it for 7 years.

Yeah.

It just seemed like a big deal. And I'm like, that used to be such a comfort zone for me and I need to like, get back to that, to where it's, I'm not making it a huge deal in my head.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, you're, you're, um, side daddy. That's what you are. You're, you know, that new position where we have side, where it's everything but. Um, so I, I, I wanna point out, I wanna highlight something you said, and that is there's, there's a difference also in Avoiding sex out of fear and avoiding, avoiding sex out of intuition.

Yeah.

Like intuitively knowing that this probably isn't a good idea for me based on where I am, what my triggers are, but it's not like you're doing it out of fear, but you have a plan. I mean, you're very intentional about every decision you're making right now, aren't you?

Right. I am. And I feel like I need to be.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, like coming back to Atlanta, I worried about— this was where I was in the darkest years of my life. And I, I thought, well, that scared me a little bit. But then coming back here, I, I realized, well, I'm not that same person.

Yeah.

And, and I'm, I don't want the same thing. So that's been good because I faced that fear and realized that that wasn't a problem for me. Um, but when I do put myself in certain situations now, Like I went to an event that is a pool party that is also like a, it's a, they raise money for charity every year, but it's also very circuity in a way.

Okay.

So I wanted to go 'cause I had many years, but I also knew that that's where I had used before. There'll be people that will be there. I'm sure that'll be on ecstasy. and I'll see that, that kind of thing. And I was, I, so I made sure that I went with the right people and hung out with them and, and it went really well. So when I do things these days, I am very intentional about how I do it and try to do it smart. Uh, that, you know, I don't want to just feel like, okay, I'm good now. I'm not that same person. I can put myself in any situation.

Mm-hmm.

But some situations might be triggering. I don't know that yet. So I'm just still really smart about when I do put myself in certain situations. And I feel like I'll have to be that way with hooking up or sex as well. Um, the type of person that I hook up with, do a little bit of vetting to make sure they really aren't, uh, using.

Yeah.

Um, and then also just sort of talk first about what's expecting. If they're wanting, if they're expecting a whole lot, then I might not want to put myself in that situation. If they're okay with whatever I feel comfortable with, then, you know, then I'll feel comfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can find these men.

Yeah.

Yeah. You can find them. You have to search. And again, just like if there's a theme on here about sexual reintegration, it's patience. Yeah. Patience and time and not catastrophizing. All right. Because you could catastrophize and say, like you said, you have one bad experience and all of a sudden you're never having good sex again. Yes. Correct.

Or I start getting in my head every time I have another experience, I'm going to be in that same headspace as I used to be.

Yeah.

You know?

Oh, right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly right. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's show your, um, your page real quick. You have 201,000 followers on Instagram. Like you said, you were getting 10,000 a day at one point.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, 230+ romance book covers. Good for you. Oh, you're a veteran. You're a veteran as well.

Yeah, I actually went through rehab, uh, through the VA, so that was nice.

Oh, nice. Okay. Okay. Well, we see Kevin Davis's body here rocking. Silver, silver daddy. Um, but looks like, like you said, you're crossing over into modeling. So you have the suits, the— this cover. These aren't— I mean, that's not a book cover, right?

Right, that's the magazine. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Um, yeah, so we have Being Claimed by Two Daddies. Oh, Double Daddies. Now that's a book, right? That sounds like a porn. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, good, good for you. You really have— I mean, your page, yes, is sexy, but it's also— you could tell you, you have a grateful, content smile on your face. Um, and again, I want to get your skincare routine because I look older than you for some reason. Um, but yeah, but yeah, this is great. I love this page. If, if you're listening, go follow. Um, he's at kevinrdavis.official. Um, he is the Silver Model Kevin. Um, And he is Silver Daddy. He's Side Daddy too. So, um, what did I miss today, Kevin, that you wish I had addressed or brought up?

Um, you know, I feel like we pretty much touched on pretty much everything. Um, yeah. Um, I, um, I just, uh, I just think it's important for me to, uh, um, You know, because some, because so many gay guys, I feel like, deal with this.

Mm-hmm.

And so many of 'em deal with it privately.

Yeah.

'Cause I know so many people who were like me, who, you know, even though I had gotten pretty bad, I still kept it pretty quiet. But I know a lot of guys have hit me up and they're like, Um, they're like, can I talk to you? And I'm like, sure. Like, they're like, nobody knows this, but I'm doing this and I feel like it's starting to become an issue.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so, uh, you know, it's, it's been nice to, uh, feel like, you know, all the, you know, I, I will hear from a lot of people, you know, give me people, but for every person I hear from, there's so many people that I'm not gonna hear from, that maybe I'm reaching, that maybe they needed to hear what I said.

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, every time I think, uh, people are getting tired of hearing me talk about this or whatever, I have to realize, I'm like, no, because, you know, they might need to hear that today. Or maybe they haven't seen those posts of mine and they've only seen the other post and, uh, or maybe they're a new follower. And they don't know my story yet. So it's like, I do try to always sort of put it out there. You know, I just had a publication here in Atlanta interview me and they post— we posted it yesterday, I believe. But like, I was able to— it allowed me to pick the questions that I wanted asked.

Mm-hmm.

And so I was able to sort of like, you know, navigate what I wanted to share. So I was able to share a lot of my story. So I try to share as much as I can because it is a huge part of my success in my recovery. If I hadn't have gone through everything I've gone through, if I hadn't have hit rock bottom, I wouldn't be where I am right now. I know that. It, it really, that perspective really did drive me. And I feel like sharing my story also helped my success because people, well, even the photographer said, I like your story. I'd love to shoot with you.

Mm-hmm.

Other authors have been like, I love your story. Thank you for, for always sharing. I wanna put you on my book cover because of it. You know? So, so I feel like being honest not only helps other people, but it's helped me tremendously. So I'm just going to continue to try to do that.

Yeah, I love that. I love that very much. Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. There was something that I just lost. There was something I noted when you were talking and now I lost it. Let's not belong in the podcast for some reason. But yeah, say thank you. Thank you for telling your story. Thank you for being out there. Really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

Well, thank you for having me. I haven't really done a podcast in a while, and anytime I get a chance to sort of share my story with people, I love that.

So I appreciate it. Good. Well, I'm sure you're going to help someone or more all around the world, all around the world with this. Thank you. Um, if you'd like to join in the conversation, you can, um, start a thread on YouTube or Spotify. You can also go ahead and DM Kevin, um, directly. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. Um, and, or if you want to send a message to me, I'll forward it to him either way. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and I hope that you will listen really close. To, to how the sexual reintegration part of what Kevin has shared, it's very much in line with what we've heard from other men. There's a little bit, there's some nuances there that I think are important, but this is important information for so many of you who are messaging me and saying, I'll never have sex again. I'll, you know, or I've been celibate for 10 years. I'm not even going to try. Sex is impossible. You know, I, I just got that comment on a, on a reel yesterday and the, the guy said—

Up until, up, up until 4 or 5 months ago, I probably would've said the same thing. I thought I might not ever have sex again. And, you know, I'd come to terms with it, but I also had a sadness about it and it made me feel like I was broken and maybe I would never be able to love again. So it feels nice. To be able to tell people, even I thought I couldn't, and it's happened for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Yeah. I appreciate it. All right guys, we will see you all next week.