EP 2:32 The Art of Intimate Connection with Zari

This is a quote from you, like, we've been taught how to flirt, how to fuck, even how to open our relationships, but not how to connect, not how to repair, not how to soften. These games are not solutions. They're invitations. They're a way to pause the performance and find each other again.

Hmm.

Yeah. Wait, where did you— what made you want to to, to write this book? And where did you get this quote? What, what, what stimulated this from you? The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Hey there, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Today is a very important topic for you. I'm glad that you're here with me, and I'm glad that you're taking time out to listen to this podcast, support this podcast, and help us on our mission to eradicate chemsex epidemic in the country, in every country in the world. Chemsex has now reached every corner of the planet that you could imagine, and I just received a A message today that I'm gonna post on social media from someone who says, I live in a country where I'm not allowed to be gay. I live in a country where I'm not allowed to be addicted. I live in a country where I have zero support, and the only thing I have is this podcast. That is amazing, and that is surreal. And every time you download an episode, every time you share an episode, every time you rate and review the podcast, you are helping. To get this message out to more and more men around the world who are trapped in chemsex addiction. So that being said, I do a lot of episodes about sexual reintegration, sexual healing, intimacy, sexual shame because the number one inhibitor for men who. Getting out of chemsex addiction. The number one reason they don't want to is they're scared of sober sex. They think they can't have sober sex. Well, when you come out of a— I know a meth addiction for sure. I'm not sure yet, I haven't done the research in terms of what mephedrone or monkey dust or 2C is doing to your sexual organs, but I can attest that when you come out of a meth addiction, a lot of times you can't even get an erection. Right. And then when the libido comes back, you're triggered to use. So the reason I focus so much on sexual reintegration is because that is the big work. After you stop using the substance, that is the big work. It's not just quitting the substance. It's all of that sexual healing after that. So today's guest is helping in this in a big, big, important way. As soon as I saw the— Instagram page, as soon as I saw what you were doing, Zari, I was so excited because this is perfect for us who are trying to reconnect to ourselves, trying to get over the, the insecurities and the social anxiety, the sexual anxiety, that those of us who feel like we have to jump right in and fuck, those of us who have just all we know is Grindr, and that you are offering something that is specifically for us and is specifically for our healing. And so I'm Really excited to get this discussion underway. Zari, could you tell us about yourself?

Hey, thanks for inviting me, Dallas. I really appreciate that. My name is Zari and I live on a remote Greek island for the past couple of years. So my, so to say, sexual life lately has been kind of seasoned, depending whether it's summer or not. I'm also an artist, And I'm a big-time explorer. I currently work on a book. It's actually almost finished. It's out. It's on Kickstarter. My book is about intimacy games, something I've been interested to explore in the past years. I would say even, yeah, ever since I was a kid, I was interested in exploring games and— I'm trying to present games that actually can make us slow down and feel again, talking about sexuality, because this has been also an issue for me and for so many people. I live in a, let's say, touristic place, and a lot of people come from all over the world. And I also get on Grindr a lot, and I meet people, and we always get to the same place.

Mm-hmm.

let's meet for a hookup and then we just leave as we never met. And it's kind of like, it feels empty afterwards. And I always had this interest for games and I knew a lot of games already, but it was very hard to actually present those games to someone you're just meeting for a hookup because the message is clear. They just want to play with you and Simple as that, you know, and then if a weird guy goes and says, hey, let's try play a simple game of strip domino, for example, would you be up for it? And everyone is like, okay, start taking off your clothes, and like they just want to go into the act. And for me it was very hard, like for a long time I was feeling like I'm weird and asking for some intimacy, for actually deeper connection.

Yeah.

Is something wrong or that that I'm kind of like slow or, I don't know, not attractive. So I decided to put those games into a book now. It's, yeah, as I said, it's a collection of intimacy games and they helped me a lot on my personal journey and also my friends' journey. And I just really believe that we can be more soft. And I know what you're doing, Dallas, and I've been watching, following you carefully. And I know that I'm also part of your journey. I've been into a lot of stuff for a quite intensive period. And it's just not rich. It's quite empty there. Mm-hmm. And So I started to, to, to try implement those games into my life. So I can talk about games now.

Well, let's— thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. So let's back up a little bit. I want to talk about— are you saying that it's possible to meet somebody on Grindr and experience intimacy and deeper connection? Is that something that is possible these days?

I think it's possible. It's very rare.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you, you kind of need to set this, uh, conversation beforehand so the expectations are right. Most of the times people would be not interested. For example, there's a simple tantric game where you just meet someone and explore your bodies only with your breath, which is kind of like a nice way to start the evening. You know, you don't need to rush into sex right away or to blowjobs, whatever. You can just explore each other's body. There's a lot more about this, but when you say this to someone, mostly people are like, uh, either afraid or, um, they would reject. Just, just a few brave people would, would actually like to try this thing with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, for For the listeners, when you're coming out of the meth addiction, it's very transactional. It's very much, you know, one thing that happens when you meet somebody to party is you immediately get naked at the door, typically, right? Give me the pipe, give me the G, let's get going.

Yeah.

Right? And there's no type of— it feels intimate, right? It feels like connection if you're on G or whatever, but it's not. It's not a real a real connection, and you're not connected to yourself either. So when you are trying to explore sex without the chemical, it, it can feel clunky, and it can feel weird, and you feel pressure. You feel pressure to get hard, you feel pressure to come, you feel pressure to perform, and you don't have anything to mute your thoughts, you know, and your anxieties. So this, to me, the idea of introducing intimacy games, you know, something that gives us a model to follow is just brilliant, I think, because we don't know where to start. We don't know what, what does intimacy even mean is a question, right? And where do I even, what do I do, right? And so this gives, this gives you something to tangibly hold that you both are on the same page figuratively and literally, right? You're on the same page.

Yeah.

Um, and it gives you something to start with. And I just want to, I want to read from your, your press kit real quick. This is a quote from you, like, we've been taught how to flirt, how to fuck, even how to open our relationships, but not how to connect, not how to repair, not how to soften. These games are not solutions. They're invitations. They're a way to pause the performance and find each other again. Yeah. Where did you, what made you want to write this book and where did you get this quote? What stimulated this from you?

Well, first off, I'm very curious. I'm always open to explore and I like to make my experiences a bit interesting and different every time. Like for me, it was never really an option. I got bored after a year of, or after a summer of meeting someone for a hookup right away. And, you know, you just come and you have your orgasm and you leave. I found this boring. So I really wanted to try the games that I already knew. So it wasn't easy at the beginning because like I said, people wouldn't join. But those that actually were brave enough to try something new, we both had amazing time.

Mm-hmm.

We're talking about a really deeper connection. I'm talking about a situation where you would just sit in front of one another wearing nothing but underwear, which is kind of weird for 2 people nowadays to just meet and not take off their clothes. That's weird, right? So I would just ask the guy to put his hand on my chest and I'll put my hand on his and we'll stare into each other for like 2, 3 minutes, just constantly staring. And then you start to feel this connection. You kind of like get deeper.

Mm-hmm.

through that person. I can feel his heartbeat, he can feel mine. It's kind of like, on a physical level, the bodies are already merged in a way, because you need, you are forced to actually stare into one another for quite some time. And then when you start exploring the body with just your breath, just think of it like having like a proper atmosphere around you, like nice light, some, some nice music and you two, it's just you two, you know, time stops. So, um, even if you're not rushed, so you allow time for erection also to come because you're still wearing your underwear, you're comfortable, you're just getting to know one another still at this point.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, the more time you spend of this game, like, like preheating the evening, the more you're actually starting to feel comfortable with the person in front of you. So this would allow me to actually have an direction, this would allow me to actually want this person even more. Although when we met, most probably when you meet someone, you know, nowadays expectations are very high. We exchange a lot of photos, great-looking bodies, but you know, in reality, things could be different.

Mm-hmm.

So even that's already like something that you need some time to, you know, like to adjust to, to connect to. And so having this kind of a game thing to warm up actually opens, yeah, it just connects you right away with this person and then you can just simply move into whatever you feel like doing. And it's not about coming, it's not about, it's really not about the sex. It's about actually connecting with this person, slowing down, which was super difficult for me. I remember, yeah, I just, I just remembered something I wanted to share and it was my last time I actually went to, uh, I was invited for a threesome and, uh, it was these beautiful guys. I went to the apartment and I was offered Tina. It was right there on the table.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, I said, I'm not gonna try, you know, I never tried Tina. I tried so many other things. I always had a strong opinion about it, but so I knew I wasn't gonna try it, you know, and so we still had fun, you know, like it was different. It was strange. I could feel the, I could feel the smell of that person. It wasn't like a natural body scent. It was something that was coming from the tina and was so strong I could sense it through my skin.

Hmm.

And then anyway, it wasn't great. But we had a good time and I wanted to leave and I will never forget this moment when I left that apartment. I look at the 2 boys, I think they were a couple or something, and they just hugged one another in the bed like, and it was, I will clearly remember this picture. It was saying, it was like they were so lost, they were so alone there and they were the only, they were actually the only 2 people that actually understood each other at this point of time.

Hmm.

I was not with them. I wasn't, I wasn't there. I just left. So this made me think about this over and over again. And, um, yeah, just a very, very strong experience for me.

Yeah. Yeah. So you, what you took away from that, that there's no connection or the connection was difficult because of the drugs. Is that right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So that was part of why you decided to— I mean, part of why you decided to write this book and draw this book? No, this—

I just always wanted to put those games into a book. Like, I know it's a great tool and I'm enjoying them. When these games are well presented, when they are played properly, you can actually have amazing time. And also my friends, I have a lot of friends that are going through hard times also with the Tina and everything, and some of the games actually did help them a lot. Yeah, maybe just to add up here, it wasn't something that— How to put this? Yeah, totally. It wasn't something that came magically into my mind, like, oh, I need to do this and so on. But just slowly starting to meet up people playing games, I realized that this is something interesting. And I think I want to share it with the world because nowadays people just don't do it.

Mm-hmm.

Just everything is straightforward. It's just not rich. It's empty. And I know there are a lot of people that actually think this way too. I mean, if you are at the level that the dopamine is so high in your body, how do you actually reverse the process? I mean, your brain is already rewired into the drug, into enjoying this, let's say, sex with the chems and— Is there actually a way, is there other way you can actually rewire this brain? Is there another way you can slow down and go back to the origins of simple games? When, okay, I'm now 42 almost, and when I started my journey, that was not an option. Grinder wasn't available. So I remember clearly, like, When I meet someone at the bar, we were supposed to go to his place and I was supposed to activate my fantasies whether this guy is hot and yeah, what is it gonna be like without even knowing anything. I don't even know how he looks naked and so on, but that would keep my imagination going and I'm gonna be feeling excited all the way with the taxi to home until we get to this moment.

Mm-hmm.

And this is something I remember vividly and I want to Yeah, and I just want to go back to it. I like to, I like to have the organic way of meeting someone and the organic way of actually having sex, which I think it's very normal.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. So you talk about rewiring the brain because we hear that so often on this podcast and anyone who's in chemsex misuse recovery is their brain has been wired to couple sex with the meth, sex with the chemical, right?

Hmm.

And so we have to go through this untangling process of getting the meth away from the sex and rewire up here, right? Like rewire what feels good, what is good sex, what is sex, right? What is intimacy? How can your book 'Cause you talk a lot about rewiring. How can this book rewire our idea of sex and intimacy?

I think the only way, when you get to the point where you can only enjoy sex consuming something, you need to be very aware that the only way to reverse this and to rewire is to actually slow down and go back. I mean, it's not gonna magically happen with another pill. There's no such pill that exists. We need to be aware that we have to put some work. We need to be ready to sacrifice. Maybe those games for some would not be interested— interesting at all, but they— for at the beginning. But— You need to know that if you really want to stop the cams and everything and be able to actually experience sex again, You need to be ready to slow down. You will probably need to have less great sex at the beginning for the first couple of times. You have to try different things. You have to. That's the only way. And believe me, it's gonna very soon, the day will come that you would feel just as great, just as awesome with the person you had just sex with as— almost as it was with the chemicals. And yeah, I just think we need to be ready that this is a process and the only way is to slow down. And this is going to happen gradually and it won't be as exciting at first, but it's a work we need to do. So instead of just like sitting there and going like, okay, I won't take Tina today, but I'm going to smoke weed or I'm going to just take a line of cocaine.

Right.

I can just I can just try to only have a glass of wine or not even drink at all and play an interesting game and play strip domino with this guy. You know, we're gonna make it fun. I mean, come on, you're not like— we always have some fun with people that not necessarily like cams. We can— you can do this for someone else that you like. Why can't you do it for yourself?

So you've, you've used the phrase slow down many, many, many times here. So for, for the listeners, you all, if you followed this podcast, you've heard this, you've heard this, and this just, um, will, will underscore the process here is slow down. You know, anything that would involve your meth side, your chemsex side is going to be fast. It's going to be sensational, right? Anything that's rebuilding your Your arousal template, your sexual template on the sober side is going to be slow and it's going to be sensual. Not to say that you have to have slow sensual sex, you can still gangbang it out. But in terms of what, where you start and what you, what it takes to rewire is going to be slowing down, right? Rewiring. And you talked about, Zari, the anticipation of, I don't know what he looks like naked. And so that builds and builds, right, instead of, instead of an immediate dick pic, you know, what if, you know, what if we took time to say, leave some mystery to it, right, what if, what if the dick was a surprise, right? And then you, you also mentioned, we've heard this again, you're going to have less great sex at the beginning, probably, it may be something you try and it's cringe, it's not enjoyable, but you just keep coming back to it. This, what Zari's talking about, and in this book can help, this is a rebuilding process, brick by brick by brick. You have damaged one puff and you've damaged the whole, the brain. You've damaged the pathway. You've created a new pathway. It takes a long time. There's not one puff of anything that's going to rewire it. This takes time. And like he says, you keep trying different things until you find something that works. And this book could be part of it. So you, you've mentioned strip dominoes several times. So can you tell us some, some games that are in the book? Yeah.

Well, strip domino is, um, it's really like a great game, especially if you're meeting someone that, uh, say you just met at the bar and for example, you did not have the time to exchange your dick pics and everything. So you, you're completely Right. Unaware of what's gonna happen. Or let's say it's a great game if your hookup for tonight that shows up on the door is someone that's not as visually appealing as you thought it would be, but you still feel some kind of chemistry and connection. That's a very great game. Or also a guy that's, for example, this is especially for people that are not comfortable with their bodies in a way, because not everyone is super handsome and sexy and muscled. Like, this is a very nice way to actually gradually, by playing the game and removing a layer at a time, to gradually start revealing your body. Just make sure you always set the atmosphere right. You know, leave your candles, leave your scents, everything. Just make it like a little bit mystery.

Mm-hmm.

And with the time, with the process, slowly starting to remove your layer, by the time you already have nothing but your underwears left, you are already going to be super excited, believe me. That's the moment that erection already comes. Because while playing this game, you're— it's not about getting to the end. It's about connecting with the other. That's a great moment where you can actually talk about stuff with the person, have a drink, you know, like, if you need to even fake it that you're losing, for example, if you're more comfortable with your body or if you wanna take off a cloth or you're kind of like...

Mm-hmm.

equal the score, the score, the score, you can fake losing and just remove a layer or 2. That's great. I mean, it's, it's, it's like you giving your partner time to connect in the most playful and nice way, which, which you would need to do it in order to readjust. And then, yeah, it's most of the games are not like hyper inventions. They're just like, games we already know. And I'm trying to share my experience through the games and other people's experience that I've been playing with. So you guys can easily see how the game is played, how— what's— I try to put like the best possible scenarios, how you can play a simple domino game, what conversations you can go with.

Hmm.

And there are different ways to approach different people. And so, yeah, it's, um, That's one of them. Tantra game, exploring the body, this is just amazing. It's— I've had the biggest orgasms in terms of intensity while playing the game. Guys, you have no idea how strong this anticipation is being built for like, for an hour or for 30 minutes along the course of the game.

Hmm.

To the point that you're actually able to come without even touching your body. And if you can reach to this point and if you manage to actually allow your partner to connect or allow your partner to feel comfortable with you or your partners. There's also like a group game. So like, this is going to be a night to remember and this is going to be an interesting night for you.

Hmm.

And I think this is what we need to go after, exploring. And it's part of the journey.

I love it.

Just be brave, explore, try things, offer things, whatever feels weird. But we live with these stigmas of, uh, like we are all entering roles very easily. I, I noticed that too among people, like I'm top, I'm bottom, and labels and everything. And then like, you know, going on an orgy is always the same. You need to, to to come after gym, right? So you need to make sure your body is great because it's Friday night, I'm gonna be going out and everything. But sometimes the guys that don't have that appealing body might actually be the hottest people in the room just because, yeah, because they don't play a role. And top, bottom, like, okay, allow yourself to experience stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe you like it. just be open to explore whatever it is. And if this game feels weird, I'm gonna push myself a little bit further and try this game for the sake of curiosity or just like, let me see how I feel. I never dressed, for example, I went on a date with a guy and you have to help me out here because he was wearing one of those super sexy, like, it was kind of like a dress, very feminine outfit, right?

Mm-hmm.

I never really had anything with someone like this before, but I found him really sexy. He sent me a couple of photos and I said, why don't you wear this on when I come? I mean, you look beautiful and I want to see you wearing this thing. And he said, yeah, but only if you wear it, I will feel awkward in front of you. So I'm like, last thing I was expecting was me wearing the thing.

Yeah, yeah.

So we were, we ended up both wearing it and we had a great time. Sex, it wasn't my thing. I didn't enjoy it as much. But, I mean, I now know it's not my thing. So it's not that bad. It was still experience.

Yeah, yeah. Get out of your comfort zone. I like that. And so I'm guessing with the games, it's not going to matter if you identify as a top or bottom or masculine or feminine or any of that. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. Especially there's a game with roles and with scenarios, which is like, actually, this is a game where you could easily switch roles and just become a character from a specific scene.

I understand.

And you need to play this character all the way through the game, regardless of what it is. But you don't even need to, you know, you don't even need these games, like, to make something up. You don't have to strictly follow them.

Yeah.

It's just a way to open your imagination and actually even show your— share with your partner what is it that turns you on, for those with partners. Or I don't think it's shameful to actually go on, even on a date, on a hookup, and actually ask to— just go and randomly ask to play a specific role that Maybe that guy not necessarily agreed to.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Interesting. Well, I'm going to share where the book is called Play With Me. And if you're watching, you can, you can look, you can watch this on YouTube or Spotify. If you're not watching and only listening, just follow the link in the show notes to the book, and you can download a sample chapter, I guess, or is that just for the press? Is that for the press only?

Yeah, it's absolutely for free. It's free for everyone.

Okay. All right. So here's the front cover. And you did all the illustrations, right?

I'm actually doing the illustrations, yeah. And I have— I'm not a writer myself, so I have this talented Latin American writer, Diego, that's helping me put this all into beautiful words. Also a gay guy. And yeah, it's— this is years of work, illustrations and everything. I really believe that we need to— for some people, it's hard to get away from porn. So I thought about them, especially when I was doing the illustrations. I really wanted, while you read the story, while you read the gameplay, I wanted to have visuals like—

Mm.

Illustrations, they're gonna actually unlock your brain and you're gonna start imagining what the scene was like. And I think this is very important after recovery that you need to really, I would say it again, but rewire this brain somehow and in the most natural way. So illustrations are kind of helping to imagine the scene, you know, just help your fantasy a little bit more, unlock your fantasy.

Right. Wow. Yeah. So this just isn't, if you're watching this, it just isn't, here's this, here's the game and how to play it. There's a whole story around this. And this is from your life?

Yes. 80% of the stories are exactly Exactly from my life. Um, yeah, also I've met a lot of people and this has been a topic I've been— yeah, there's also hard ones at the end. Um, but I've been talking to a lot of people and couples and people from all over the world. Like I said, I live in a place where I have access to all those people. So, um, these are not just like— these are games I've played and, uh, I try to put them in really into stories, illustrated stories, so you can completely get how it's being done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the next one's some nudity. I don't want to show that on the podcast.

There's a lot of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even the pictures, you know, are— can be erotic for you and your partner to follow, right? And that, that helps too.

See, that's the thing that I've been— because in general, when I'm illustrating, I'm trying to be like very realistic with my subjects, especially when it comes to portraits of people.

Mm-hmm.

But I knew that here the goal is not to actually suggest another porn video or something super realistic as what everyone is used to today, beautiful looking. I wanted them to be Just like sketched roughly so that the people can, you know, they can just start imagining the rest. I think this is important.

I love this. Yeah. And then after the story, the illustrations, you have the game rules.

Yes.

This is the Dominance, right?

At the end is the game rules.

Yeah. And with an optional twist that you'll have to buy the book to find out.

Yeah.

And so the book is on Kickstarter. So tell us what Kickstarter is.

Well, actually Kickstarter is a platform for artists like me and all kinds of creative people where they can actually put their work and they get other people back their project by buying product. In return, they're gonna receive a copy of the book or many different rewards depending on the pack they're buying. And so it's completely safe. It's a platform. If there's a certain goal that needs to be reached in order for me to produce the book with the copies and everything and printing, if this goal is not reached within the 30 days of the campaign, you won't be charged anything. You're only charged at the end if the campaign is successful, and you're gonna receive a product in return, the book you selected. So it started today, literally an hour ago, and I'm really hoping it's gonna make it. It's 30 days, so if you guys feel like it, there are different kinds of rewards for different kinds of pockets. It's so, yeah, up to you.

Well, we'll try to get, then I might just bump the episode up so that we can get this out sooner.

This will be amazing.

30 days. So please go on Kickstarter and back this project. Help this to come to life. Um, that would be, we'll put the Kickstarter link in the, in the show notes too, because guys, this, this is really what you, what an answer to many of you, your, your problems, the answer to many of your struggles. And that is, I don't know how to connect with another man. Right. And, and listen, a lot of us, some of us aren't creative like you. Sorry.

Yeah.

We wouldn't come up with strip Dominoes on our own. You know, I wouldn't. And, and I think you're more, you're probably more apt to present this to someone if it's in a book than, hey, I come up with this idea, right? Because then, then you're, then you're putting, you're setting yourself up more for rejection. You're, you know, you're, you're playing on your own anxiety to say, hey, I come up with a game for us. Maybe later, but this book could be a good starter for that, you know, a good conversation piece. But also like, like, look at this guy's doing. Right. Um, and—

Yeah, I thought about this too, so I made sure that there are pickup lines in the book, throughout the book, specifically dedicated to that, because I've been personally struggling with convincing people to try games because they would find it weird. So I'm sharing my experience and pickup lines to actually open this conversation. Also, I know that, um, that I, to be honest, After extensive use of drugs for this extensive period of my life, I really had the feeling of numbness. Like, I had erectile problems for quite some time.

Oh.

And I'm sharing also games that would help you guys to pick up if you're there. Because it's only natural. I mean, don't worry, you're not weird, you're not broken, you're not sick or something. This is going to all recover slowly with the time. It's just like I said, the only thing it takes is to rewire the sexual brain. So this is gonna happen. Just be consistent. And I've placed, I've put some, some notes there as well regarding those people and a few ways how to get out of situations that let's say you, you can get hard, but you really like the guy and there are, there are ways to work it around and still have beautiful time.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I really love that. What would be an example of a pickup line? Can you think of one that you put in there?

It's not really about the line. It's about how you handle the situation. I'm suggesting little tools like a little feather or simply you offer to change, to switch roles, or you offer a massage at the moment. There are little games with the feather, with the ice cubes, little things you can try until you calm down and you get into your energy. But you really need to know that this is part of the journey and it's fine. And it happens to everyone. And even to those handsome guys that look like, oh, they never had problems, they still do. And so, yeah, there are ways. There are absolutely ways to still have beautiful nights. I will never forget my trip to Brazil when I met this guy and you know living in Europe for me was sex was like an hour or two thing and then that's it you call off the night but then I went there in the evening and he said why are you in a hurry like we have the whole night until the morning like tranquilo take it easy like and then that's when I realized that yeah I hold this with me and then that was the weirdest thing. was after me going to the bathroom just to pee and closing the door. He was like, okay, so that's very European. We just spent the whole night together doing everything possible and you're closing the door of the bathroom so you can take a pee.

Like, what's up?

Yeah, and so that made me realize a lot of things that, yeah. Anyway.

Such differences, such differences.

Differences, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just going to take a lot of rewiring for a lot of us, you know, especially if you are only meeting people on Grindr, you know, I mean, on Grindr, most of the time you have to be ready right now. And if you're not ready right now, he's moving on to somebody else, right? And then when he gets there, it's right to it, right?

Yeah.

Now I have had some, I have had in my experience some guys who were like, well, can we just get a drink first? Or, you know, let's start somewhere in public and see how we feel, which is great. You know, because the last thing you want is somebody walking into your home and you immediately know that there's no connection there or the vibe's not there or they gave you outdated pictures or whatever, right? But yeah, the idea of spending the night together is that would be a really change, a culture shock here unless you are on drugs.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. But you have to be prepared that your nights are going to look different from now on and it won't be an hour quick thing. It's just gonna take time and you need to make sure you fill in the space with games and different ways to interact with one another in order for you to feel this desire again. Because if you don't have the drug with you, what do you do? That's the way I believe. It's allowing yourself time and your partner.

Mm-hmm.

While not just sitting and wondering what to do. Hey, let's pick up this, let's pick up a game. Close your eyes and pick up a game. We play it now, right? You have a mission. You have a mission. It's not about how you play the game, where you get. It's about you getting off your comfort zone and getting off of what you used to do and try something new. This, because this is going to be a new life for you. Obviously, it's going to take time. Mm-hmm.

That's right. It's going to take time. It's going to take time. Get out of your comfort zone is what you've been saying. Slow down. Try something new. The sex might not be that great at first, but keep trying. You're going to rewire the anticipation, the, the games, the anticipation of keeping clothes on and dropping into the energy can really help with your erectile dysfunction. Your social anxiety, getting comfortable. I mean, the book has many, many different facets to it than just games. This is really a healing book, isn't it?

Mm-hmm. It's not, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't say it's just games. There are lots of techniques, a lot of personal moments of feeling guilty and feeling shame. And I'm also like just trying to put a different perspective on those moments because they are part of our journey, especially for me, like a boy on the eastern part of Europe, living in an oriental country where, as much as gay-friendly as Greece is, it's not really like that if you live in a small neighborhood.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, it was a lot of feelings going through. So maybe some of you will recognize themselves. But, um, it's just, uh, yeah, you guys try techniques, try new things, see what works for you. Uh, don't stay and just don't just try to go the same way. Just allow yourself. Can I take a— can I allow myself to, to 3 months to not touch any drugs and say like, put yourself like a reasonable target I'm gonna try every Friday meeting someone new. And I'm very sure that the universe is gonna send you, is gonna start sending you people that are super willingly open to actually try new things, that's gonna share these games with you.

Yeah.

And also friendships. Yeah. If you feel like, uh, this is very hard, I know from my experience, but if once you guys have the intention to change it, you're gonna start noticing how those kind of friends that used to drag you down the road are going to start disappearing slowly from your life. Just make sure you open space for the new ones to enter, but you cannot find them in the same places where you used to go before. So yeah, just start by offering, hey, have you tried Tantra, and if they say no, you just tell them that it's a nice game where you put a blindfold on and you wear nothing but underwear and you have 10 minutes to explore each other's bodies only with your breath. That's already playful enough. Like, I would be curious to see what this game is about. Why not? It sounds fun to me. Everyone is sick of, sick of quick hookups anyway. So like, trying something new would be interesting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think we are, aren't we? Sick of hookups? Yeah, only hookups. Why not?

It's, it's not rich. It's, it's quite empty there. And, um, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I love this. And, you know, just like you said in this, this first chapter, connection is one of our deepest human needs. And I think that's part of what we're doing when we're hooking up. I mean, not always, but for the most part, aren't we just looking for a connection? But we don't know how to do it.

No, we don't. And like I said, we often enter roles, so we kind of fall asleep into what we're supposed to be doing, and we don't allow our inner voice to tell me what I feel like. Okay, the guy that just entered, maybe he's not he's, he's got a little belly and he had a six-pack on the photo and it's not as great, but why don't I just try to connect with him? We don't need to go all the way. We can just play a simple domino game and maybe this guy is gonna turn out with the, with the biggest dick and that's gonna give you pleasure or give me pleasure.

Right.

And, um, you know, just try not to ask for photos next time. Make sure Try, just try to see what destiny has in store for you and make your night a little bit more interesting, guys. It's really about playing and allowing yourself to experiment new things. It's, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Something you said about the universe sending you people who are on the same page with you on this. And that is where I think all of this starts, if you really zoom out, is the willingness to believe this is possible, right? Or to not shut it all down with, nobody's ever going to play a game with me. Nobody's ever going to want to do this with me. I'm never going to find somebody who doesn't want just fuck, right? When you say those things, you're closing yourself off to the possibilities. But when you open yourself up to, how can I find someone to enjoy this with me? How can I find somebody on the same page as me? Again, figuratively, literally. How can I find a partner who will enjoy this? And if you keep asking those kinds of questions, the solution will come to you. Like, the algorithm of these apps, who knows how the hell it works? Because sometimes you see the same people, sometimes you don't. Somebody will come up in your app who will want to do this with you if you're open to it. Am I— don't you agree? Isn't that what you're kind of saying about— yes.

I would say that 1 in every 5 would be interested to try a strip domino game or the time trick game, for example.

It's—

that's how it is. It's natural curiosity in people. And like we said, people are sick of This empty sexual relationships we have.

Yeah, I think we would all agree if we really admitted it. So tell me, is there something I haven't asked that you wish I had have asked about? Is there something that we didn't cover about the book, about your process of writing it, anything that you wish we would have talked about today?

Not really, no. For me, it's, you know, I never thought about this book as a healing tool, like a You put it into a different perspective now. I don't have experience on the scene of writing books or games or anything. It's just an artist with a big imagination. And ever since I was a kid, I was playing games and it's so natural to me. So I put them into a book because of the illustration and everything. But it seems that this book is actually turning to be more than just a simple book. So I wanted to thank you for sharing this all with everyone.

Thank you.

I hope it helps many people. I've seen it working with my friends that are trying now. They're being consistent with the games. And the experiences are changing a lot, their experiences, mine as well. I'm still adding games. My next goal would be to actually create a physical game I'm working on. So—

Nice.

Yeah, completing successfully the Kickstarter is going to open another door for me to actually put this game into production. But other than that, I'm just an artist guy that's also looking for my answers, and I'm just here to share my games with you guys because I know they're special. And it's not just me saying it, but it was— I always have conversations with my partners, and it's just very strange how you feel after such experience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I definitely see this as a healing tool for, for the audience here. And I hope that if you're listening, you will go to the Kickstarter and contribute something to get this in our hands, in the hands of all the men who need it. You know, we all need connection and we want healing and we just want to enjoy sex again because it's been perverted for us through the drugs. And this gives us a roadmap. And great ideas to do so. So you're doing great work and I appreciate it.

Thanks. Thanks, Dallas.

And also Zari has his own, he has a playwithme.book Instagram page and you have your own Instagram page, Zari Plays. Very visually appealing, if I must say. And so, you know, go follow Zari, go support him on Instagram. And we just, yeah, we're looking forward of this getting into our hands. Sorry. So thank you.

Thank you, Dallas, for having me on the podcast. I just wish everyone having like a great season now. It's the winter season where we're going to spend more time indoors and for the people in the Northern Hemisphere. So yeah, guys, like I want to say, just keep playing, exploring, try new things, go out, meet people, trust the universe. Don't, uh, try to stay away. Just think about, allow yourself to actually allow your inner voice to, to speak. Let your intuition decide who you're attracted by and whether it's a good moment to invite someone over, or you're gonna skip to the next guy that's going to actually be willing to play something else with you. Um, yeah, so thanks again for having me.

Yeah. Thank you. Well, I cannot wait to play strip dominoes. Yep. Very soon.

Uh, yeah.

All right, guys, join in the conversation if you want. You can comment on YouTube, you can comment on Spotify. I would appreciate that. Or you can DM me or contact Zari, whatever you want to do. But do go to the Kickstarter and we will look forward to seeing you next week.