EP 2:38 Intervention Advice for Families with Brad

What about relationships? What are the relationship costs? You know, do you see them? Yes, actually, I see him more than I see my other kids. Well, do you know that makes sense because the addicted adult child is much more likely to be in contact with his parent or parents than the non-addicted child? Well, why is it because they love them so much? No, it's they have higher needs. They're in crisis. They have fewer—

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. So glad you're here today. We have a very special guest, another celebrity on the podcast today, um, who's been on Dr. Oz as well. Yeah, I think so, you are, um, another celebrity. So we're, we're getting big time here. Um, but no, thank you for joining today. And I just wanted to remind you, you know, I have to say it, please rate and review the podcast when you can. That's the currency that we need. We don't have anyone sponsoring the show, but if you could rate, review, download, share, that would be so, so wonderful of you. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide that comes with every episode. The link is in the show notes, or if you go to drdallasbragg.com, you can sign up for my blog. And you will get the study guide right in your inbox. How convenient. And you can take a deep dive on the topic. You have journal prompts, you have reflective questions, and one actionable exercise. So you get bored, you have so much to do that's for free. So without further ado, I am going to introduce our guest, interventionist, entrepreneur, and author. And he's best known for helping families in crisis. Brad Lamb has managed over 1,300 interventions, presented to the UK's Parliament, and served the Association of Intervention Specialists Board. Board, Brad.

That's a mouthful, isn't it?

It is. I always, I've gotten feedback that when I read the bios, I sound like I just am reading it for the first time, and I am actually. So, but Brad co-founded the residential trauma program Breathe Life Healing Center in Southern California and created and produced the 8-part docuseries Addicted to Food with the one and only Oprah Winfrey. Brad conducts invitational intervention training worldwide and co-authored California State Bill 1228 in 2019, signed into law to increase access to care and tighten provider compliance. Brad has written several books including Quit Vaping, Just 10 Pounds, and How to Help the One You Love: A New Way to Intervene. Love that. Brad owns and operates intervention.com, helping thousands of families find help every single month. Welcome to the podcast, Brad.

Hey there, Dallas. It sure is good to see you.

Good to see you too. I spent some, a lot of time with you recently. I came to P-Town and—

So good to have you there, Dallas.

It was really nice. It was my first time actually to P-Town. And I liked that it was kind of deserted. It was quiet and I got to look And, um, yeah, it was nice. It was peaceful. And I got the most beautiful picture of a sunrise that I've ever seen in my life. It made me cry. Uh, so I love being there.

I understand. The light there is majestic, isn't it? Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Um, and your training, the training course was, it was really priceless. It was so, so good.

Thanks, Dallas.

It really was. And I paid, you know, I didn't scroll on my phone. I paid attention because I was, I was really hung on your words. Your stories, your explanations, what you had to say, your knowledge. It was really nice. It was really good. Powerful.

Well, I love teaching it and it's the really the only topic that I could spend 2 and a half days talking about and teaching. Everything else I know a little, but this one thing, right, I know more than a little and I, and I love it. It's changed my life and it's changed a lot of other people's lives too, by both the people that have trained with me, but also I think, you know, the, a higher number of those that I've intervened with the families and invited the person to their own intervention. And, and it, it is a different type of intervention. And at first it sounds, you know, it can be incredulous thinking, well, that won't work. You know, there's no way will someone come into their own intervention. But in fact they do. It's evidence-based. It's based on the work started out of an NIH study. Back in the early '90s out of the University of Penn, and it really intrigued me. The work intrigued me. Buh buh buh buh buh bless you, Alice.

Thank you.

You told me it was really cold where you're at too, and I mean, I happen to be in Miami for the month, and wow, it's warm here-ish. But then I woke up this morning and a cold front had moved in. It's 49, but boy, it's burr burr chilly where you are.

It is, it is. The sun's out now, so.

Not very nice.

Sorry to interrupt what you were saying. Yeah, I, I was really interested in having you because, you know, I started this podcast for my mom and for my, and for my loved ones, because when I fell into the chemsex world, my family had no fucking idea. Like what, what the chemsex world was like, what crystal meth was like for the, for someone who's gay. They didn't, they didn't know anything and they didn't know how to help at all.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so I thought, you know, there's, there's no resources out here for loved ones. And, you know, my mom, the, when I, the, she found out I was using because the, because of getting arrested the first time. And the worst thing she could think of when she found out I was arrested, she said, oh, you're using marijuana?

Well, it does start with an M, Ma. Right.

It starts with an M. But when I said crystal meth, she's just speechless, right? So, and then of course there's this idea in the heteronormative world that crystal meth is, you know, some white, under, impoverished person with missing teeth and boils all over the face.

Yeah.

And so—

Faces of Meth that popularized, you know, meth so much as a shareable meme, you know, not really anything that most people would relate to, but it sure gave us a vivid image of God, anything but that for my loved ones, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And knowing the nuances of the, of chemsex would have helped them understand how to support me better, you know, what to ask for. But, but just knowing, period, like just understanding how to help, period. And so I really wanted to have you on for many reasons, but one is a lifeline for loved ones because I, I don't see a lot of resources out there. You know, when I get, I get DMs every day from mothers, sisters, brothers, friends, partners.

Mm-hmm.

My, he's on meth, but I don't know what to do. I don't know how to help. And then they end up guessing how to help and it's typically not the right thing to do. Not healthy, not helpful, you know?

Yeah.

And so I guess my first question for you, I mean, we can talk about interventions for sure and kind of clearing out the, probably what people think of when they think of the word intervention. But if you were to say in your experience of all these years, what are some dos and what are some don'ts? for family members to support a loved one who's, who's in, who's lost to addiction?

It's a great first question, Austin. Uh, as, uh, you know what I almost said, Austin, and then I tried to cover it up and make it not look like I just called you another city instead of Dallas.

That's okay.

So funny. Right before we got on, and, and by the way, for those watching, I, I know Dallas for his work and, uh, I've met you a couple of times and I, I've I think you're terrific. I'm a believer.

Thank you. Thank you.

In the work that you do and the shame that you help people shed just even around discussing it. It's such a great way to jump into the topic because when you look it up, if you're a family member who loves somebody who's struggling, often you just discover this thing that you didn't even imagine was possible for a loved one who's suffering. And then You're, you open a Pandora's box of sorts because you, you want to know how to help, but you read all these descriptions of what it might be and it can be so scary. So thanks for first, just thanks for what you do, Dallas.

Thank you very much.

It's, it's so important and there's so little of it. There's only one you and, you know, I, I, I get to see Dr. David Bossa next week. Who both of us know and love. He's like a national treasure.

Yes.

In the gay community, he's a person that cares deeply about people who suffer, first of all, but this microcosm of, you know, men who have sex with men, queer men who struggle with this incredibly potent and addictive substance. And, and there's nothing like it. So if you're the family member who has just heard, maybe as an answer to the question, what's going on with you? Or you, to use your example, is this marijuana? Are you using marijuana? And you're like, well, sit down, Ma.

Right.

Because we have an onus around it too. You know, it's so easy to go from a closet of That we leave at a certain point if we— if a person comes out as queer and think, oh, I'm never going to go back in a closet. And then, you know, meth is a hard one to talk about with even people that we feel close to and comfortable. I remember the other night I was talking about with my husband. He turned into Diane Sawyer. And he was like, he wanted to know more of the story. And we've, we've known each other for 30, 35 years. We've been married almost 20. And, and yet a lot of the story I had not shared with him in detail, even as he's read my books. And—

Wow.

And so he peppered me with questions and I thought, I'm just gonna give into it. It's good to talk about it, for God's sake. And, but I remember clear as day the summer of '02, uh, 2002. I, I had really suffered for a long time with methamphetamine and first sampling it in, uh, 1986 in Portland, Oregon. And I used it several times that summer and I thought, wow, this is really potent, scary drug. Um, And, and P.S., back then, because there were no erectile dysfunction drugs, you wouldn't get an erection typically on meth. And people would say, oh, well, it gives you crystal dick. And so immediately, you know, it didn't catch on, I think, with the gay community because, because of that side effect.

Hmm.

Um, fast forward all those years later, it was the summer of '02, and I was sitting with a friend and he said, you know, you were really a mess last night. And you need help. This drinking is going to kill you. And he, he also said, by the way, I know that I drink a lot. He said this about himself. And we drank a lot together. We drank together and had a ball together. And I remember saying, you know, it's not the alcohol. It's actually, I'm addicted to methamphetamine.

Hmm.

And I had never told another soul other than I suppose you disclose to a drug dealer when you order, you know, aisle 13, I'd like some meth delivered. But it was really a closet that I was trapped in. And in that closet comes isolation and despair and fun too. You know, there's the good stuff about methamphetamine. You schluff off, schluff, schluff. You get rid of your, you know, those protective mechanisms so you can have freer sex, whatever the reason. But it is a freeing, great drug. There's a reason why during World War II, the Third Reich used it so freely with soldiers because it made you, it makes you feel that you're a superhero, impenetrable. I can get through this no matter What? And so it's a fun drug for sure. And then it's not sustainable over time because once addicted, it's really hard to manage and moderate control unless you're able to. Some people are able to do that. I found it really tough to moderate. And so I would have periods where no drugs, I will do no drugs. And so I just drank a lot. I was afraid of getting arrested. I worked in television. And in DC, uh, at one of the network affiliates. And, and I thought, that's the last fucking thing I needed, to get arrested on my way to work, you know, with meth in the car by the White House. And then there were days when I drove close to the White House thinking, God, there's meth in the car. If only I were arrested, maybe I could stop.

Mm.

You know, so it was, it was this trying to juggle these 2 realities of, I love it, I can't leave it, what do I do? And I know in your work, it's also something that's come out the last 20 years, not just in a message of abstinence, but I so appreciate what you talk about is, I would say harm reduction, but it's use management.

Yeah.

And, you know, normalizing that discussion too, that if that's where you're at, there's a conversation to be had too. Uh, it need not be all or nothing unless, um, that's the desire you have, or, you know, for sure, you and I both witnessed, I know, the side effects of methamphetamine, how the drug has become stronger, for sure, more potent, more, more easily addictive, but, but it was really, you know, incredibly addictive before. Yeah. I'm curious, how do you, how do you message that to people that are asking for help in terms of moderation management or harm reduction on that? Because it's, it's something that I have talked with folks about and, and believe in as a course of, of action. Though usually when people reach out to me, they really, they, they tend to want what I, what I got, which was A version of abstinence, at least from methamphetamine. Yeah.

Well, you know, I start out with asking about, like you said, black and white thinking, all or nothing. And I'll ask, is that conducive to an addict's thought process? Yes. Usually an addict is an all or nothing thinker, right? Well, then why are, why are we submitting to a program that obviously was written by an addict because it's all or nothing, right? Like either it's pass or fail, abstinence or not, you know? And if you do use, start your days over, go back to the start line, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so that is addict-type thinking.

Hmm.

That got you here, but it's not gonna get you out. Right. And then you, and then I'll say, let's look at the statistics in terms of relapse rates for chemsex, especially in the men who have sex with men community. It's 90% in the first year you're going to relapse. So that's, those are the hard facts, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so given that, let's, let's get real about what it is you can manage, right? Can you stay meth-free for today? For the rest of today, is that possible? Yes. Let's make that a goal because you have to build trust in yourself again, cuz you've said to yourself, I'm not using ever again so many times, your subconscious doesn't believe it. Mm-hmm. And your actions aren't gonna align with it. So let's say for today, you know, just for today, quote unquote, you know, let, let's set a manageable goal and let's reach it and then build the momentum from there. And then you start trusting yourself. You start feeling better about yourself because all this is, is perspective in terms of successful recovery. It's the perspective you have about yourself. You know, if, if I'm a loser and I keep relapsing, I'm a piece of shit, then I'm gonna keep using because that confirms and underscores the beliefs I have about myself. But if I'm, if I set a goal today and I make it, I begin to show myself that I can do this, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so that's the, the, the process that I go in. And so everybody has a different, uh, has a different goal. I mean, some guys come to me, they're using every weekend. Some guys it's every 3 months. Okay. Let's set a goal that's realistic. Not, I'm never using again. Let's set a goal that's really true in your heart, what you feel you can do. Let's put, cut all the bullshit of getting a new key tag and starting your days over and all that stuff. Like, what is realistic? What could you do? If it's a week, let's make it a week. Let's set the goal. Let's achieve the goal and then build from there. So that's kind of the, the route that I take.

I, I like to the, and this is something that we, we say a lot, the, my people, my, the people that surround me is I've tried to pass along this idea of more good, less bad. And that with methamphetamine, just like with nicotine, if you're smoking, there, there, Both are highly addictive and neither drug are easily— is a case easily made for their value in our lives. Like if I smoke cigarettes, it definitely scratches an itch because it's highly addictive. It addicts more people on the planet than anything else, nicotine, but smoking in particular, you know, there's no great upside to it.

Yeah.

Other than for some people it helps manage their appetite. For methamphetamine too, it's highly addictive and the upside is better sex for some, loss of inhibitions. It's similar to nicotine or smoking in this way though. It's harder to build a case for its value in our lives just because it's so hard to manage. Effectively. But I love the notion, a harm reduction notion, and how I think of it anyway, is more good, less bad. That we're not called to be judgment-free. It's good to know, stove hot, do not put your hand on it. And to get more information so that, you know, you can make better decisions, whatever that is. And, you know, I, The last time I did meth was January, uh, July 4th of '02. And when I went to treatment in February of '03, it was because I couldn't stop drinking. And I was, I was, I was alcoholic. I was very sick physically. And, and I had ordered, called my drug dealer and ordered meth.

Wow.

That, The days before I went to treatment, and I had made this deal with a friend that if I, I use meth again, I was going to go into treatment. Because it was so disastrous in my life. I caught the bed on fire with poppers. I had a litany of accidents around the house. I still have scars all over my legs because I would run into shit. You know, I'm running around the house like a bat out of hell and run into things. And Not to mention, you know, the relationships that I ran into and totaled and the not physical scars that I have from those, but there are still people in my life, in the world that don't talk to me because I was very different on meth. Yeah. Brad Lamb on meth is very different than Brad Lamb not on meth.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but what you're talking about too, about meeting people where they're at with moderation management and small set of goals, smaller set of goals, not a, I will never do this forever as a goal, but how about it's just less, less, less?

Right.

And so then we march to this beat of a drum that says, hey, well done, you know, you're doing less. And then there's ability for motivation to build. And I also, value 12-step programs I'm involved in. Particularly of interest to me has been Crystal Meth Anonymous. And I've sponsored a lot of guys over the years, many who have died, many who live, some who I still sponsor after 20 years, 15 years, 17 years. So I've, I've seen a lot. And I value anything that makes a person healthier and happier. Yeah. You know, short of, I don't know, you know, getting tied down in a bedroom to keep you from leaving the house. Like, I'm not suggesting that we take drastic moves, like, you know, hold them, you know, people against their will. Because sometimes it can seem, well, he won't stop. What do I do? Tie him up? Well, no, you don't tie him up. But Here, here's some things that you can try that are, are evidence-based, meaning they're based on science. So the odds are that you'll be more likely than not to make it better. And it's with methamphetamine, it's, it's hard. It really is hard for the family member, I think, to make it a lot worse. Like when I, when I was really suffering the last couple of years, I think my family now, in retrospect, as they— at family gatherings, when people will talk and, oh yeah, I remember Bragg when— they just knew that it was a cyclone. They saw the cyclone all the time. And but they didn't actually know what it was, in part because they didn't ask what it was.

Hmm.

I think it can be scary, especially if a person is queer, man who has sex with men, that has a degree of secrecy that a non-queer sibling wouldn't have, i.e., this is my girlfriend. This is, you know, we have 2 kids. We're not married yet. She moved in. I have another girlfriend. And there's a normalcy to even talking about it, uh, relationships and sex and the implication of sex anyway. And, uh, do you remember when we were young guys? Or I'm— I'll talk for me. I'm 59 now. When I was a young guy, it was called lover. You'd have a lover.

Oh, right.

It wasn't even boyfriend. It was lover. It was this sexualized notion of relationship. And then if you were queer, of course you're going to be sex-based. And, uh, and look, that's one of the freedoms that I think I have as a gay man is I don't have to live by the Heteronormative rules of the church that I grew up in, which thank goodness for that, you know?

Yeah.

Because that'll, that would have put me in the grave if I had stayed there. I really believe more dangerous than methamphetamine was the church I grew up in, in terms of ruining lives, casting fake demons out of gay people, all sorts of bullshit, you know, that they thought and lived that addiction was a demon thing. Which is bananas. These are people, my family were educated, advanced degrees, and yet they're just idiots when it comes to the adaption of a mythology for living. Now, I got out, so clearly I have some energy around that. You know, I view it, I don't, I view that as evangelical Christianity that is not coming at people who suffer with anything other than compassion and support for them to be better in some way, I don't have time for.

Yeah.

And that's not to say I won't work with people that are born again, but I've had people hire me that are, or wanna hire me that are born again and they, they have a very particular idea of what treatment would look like. And if I don't think that it's ethical or evidence-based, I'm not interested in working with you because I'm not interested in witchcraft.

Yeah.

And, and I think that that's what a lot of that is. And, uh, but having said that, I'm a spiritual person. I don't know what any of it means, uh, really. Because I'm still alive. You know, I think until I'm gone, well, I have— I would be able to answer the question finally, what happens when?

Right.

But I have no idea, you know, other than I see coincidence, I see good people, I see love, I see distress. And, you know, I try to remind myself I know so little.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. About my stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, it's one, one part of recovery for me and for many people is, you know, meth kind of clouded all of that pain for me because, you know, I, like you, I grew up in this evangelical world where my childhood was taken from me. Uh, it was taken from me through fear and oppression. You know, I mean, I, as soon as I got my driver's license at 16, I was going to Christian bookstores and checking out and buying books, learning, learning how to exorcise demons from myself.

Wow.

You know, that's the kind of—

1 Corinthians 10:13. You know, my, my, my father, I, I remember clear as day, all sorts of casting out, and they would use that Bible verse as a sort of the prelude to the spiritual kiss that would be, you know, incredibly traumatizing and horrifying and unsuccessful. But yeah, it's, it's interesting to hear you say that you, you know, escaped. I think God bless, you know, or I don't know, not God bless, but bless your pea-picking heart. Yeah, we got out, you know, I'm so grateful that we were able to get out and survive and come to a different place in relationship to ourselves and our self-worth. And where does value come from? You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I think subconsciously, I believed I was a deviant anyway. So meth, meth was right in alignment with how I saw myself.

We had Dallas, uh, if you walk into Breathe Life Healing Center in LA, and I know you've been there, but I didn't explain this to you when you were there in the lobby. And I've since sold it. So I'm so happy and relieved and like 90% less stressed out now that I'm just an interventionist. Uh, but when you walk in there, there's a table of contents. from something, and it happened to be an abnormal psychology book that I grew up with in the house.

Hmm.

And it says, I wrote on it when I was 14 in blue pen, it says, The Cure, 1967. And because that was a book from '67 on my father's bookshelf in the library, and in the back it had a little record, a little thin record that back in the day you'd get in a magazine sometimes or in a book, and they'd give it as a, you know, special with purchase.

Right, right.

But this one was the session where a person, a psychologist, had attached electrodes to a person with same-sex attraction. They'd attract— they'd put clamps on his genitals, his testicles, penis, his nipples, and they would put on the wall a picture of a woman in a bikini. And then, George, you know, they talked to the fella, the poor fella that was a you know, trapped for the session and talk to him about, isn't she beautiful? She— Christine loves, you know, walking on the sun, you know, walking on the beach at sunset. And, you know, and then they would show a guy in a bikini and the guy would start to get aroused.

Mm-hmm.

And because there was a contraption around his dick that gauged erection and blood flow to the penis, and you'd— then you'd hear him scream because they would shock him. You know, and that's some of this stuff that we grew up with, which is still alive and well in many states. And, and frankly, if, if any family member who loves somebody who suffers, if you can just start with compassion and the idea that, you know, you probably don't know how to help.

Mm-hmm.

So why don't you ask people that have gone through it and have got to the other side? That haven't, you know, killed themselves because of all the the garbage that gets piled on people who are who are queer still in 2025. Just last this last week, we've you know been waiting for the headline of the Supreme Court. Are they going to take gay marriage or marriage equality up or not? Put it on their docket. And that hateful Kim Davis from Tennessee, you know.

Yeah.

Oy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Just the message of, you know, you're beautiful, you're loved, and you know, you're not a defect is a great way to start with somebody who suffers. You know, it's nobody will ever close the door on you telling them that you love them.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, where does the line drawn there though, in terms of family members? Like, when do we, when does love become enabling? You think?

Well, I think I love the term codependency because it's viewed through, I think, a lens of, oh, that codependency is negative. We're all codependent. I'm codependent on my front desk person here at the place I rented for a month. People can't get in unless they go through him. I'm codependent on the person in receiving downstairs because they don't send boxes up. If you order anything, you got to go through Jamal and receiving, I've learned this week. And, you know, so I walk into a new environment and immediately I'm seeking out and asking for relationships with people that I'll immediately have a codependent relationship. I need them. And I think You know, we need love. That's a basic human need. We need touch, basic human need. We need dopamine and serotonin, those feel-good chemicals that we see when we see a baby or when we see a sunset or when we load a needle with methamphetamine. You know, that's another way to get that rush.

Mm-hmm.

And so if we think of things just on a spectrum, of, you know, usefulness and what they give us. That's helpful too, I think. You know, when I got help, people were still back in the day, it was, people were still snorting and mostly snorting methamphetamine or just smoking was just starting to trend.

Hmm.

And, and now I would, I know just from Couple programs at New York Gay and Lesbian Center in New York, and you I know that you got to meet Joe DeSano up in Provincetown, who is one of the most incredible people I know that helps so many people and has such a heart for helping. It is it is it's hard to work in the the field because of all the loss, but. I got lost there. I started thinking about Joe's mom, actually. And then I got lost with the, what, what, what the topic was.

Well, we're, well, a question that I get a lot is, I love my loved one, right? But when, when do I love them? When do I love them to death? You know, is, you know.

So, so I think we're, we're called to make judgment. It's okay to have judgment. If you're not a lunatic, if you're not basing your judgment on ancient texts, or in the case of using the Bible, it was, you know, the modern revision that I grew up with was like translated in 1945, didn't even have words for homosexual in the original text. And yet, you know, the version I grew up with is the super anti-gay.

Mm-hmm.

And so, Codependency and dependence on people is a normal part of life, and we're dependent on the bus and cars and medication. Um, I, I'm so interested in how family members can edit their relationship with other people. So I ask questions like, add up all the financial costs this month, last month, and the month before. That you've spent on the person just across the board? What are the categories? Phone, rent, crisis, emergency room, paramedic, maybe lawyer, lost job, you know, all the things that we do. It's easy to think of financial. That's one of the easiest things. What about relationships? What are the relationship costs? You know, do you see them? Yes, actually, I see him more than I see my other kids. Well, do you know that makes sense because the addicted adult child is much more likely to be in contact with his parent or parents than the non-addicted child? Well, why is it because they love them so much? No, it's they have higher needs. They're in crisis. They have fewer people to talk to. They want that phone to be turned back on that you pay for.

Mm-hmm.

They want to make sure that rent was paid. They want to know if they can have some money to go to the grocery store, but then they actually, well, sometimes use it for other stuff. And so just learning to take an inventory of, well, what are the ways in which the person is dependent on me? What are the ways in which I'm dependent on them? Right? And a parent or a loved one who has somebody who suffers with meth is often dependent on them just for signs of life. Oh my God, it was a good day. I heard from Dallas. Thank God. I hadn't heard from him in 2 weeks, you know, and that's dependency. But what's a better way to have dependency? Well, with FaceTime, it's so easy to actually have eyes on, and that helps us have a different sort of connection. Like, if I'm going to pay for this stuff, then you have to call me on FaceTime, fill in the blank, once a day, twice a week.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just so that you build different bridges of dependency that are not baked in crisis. Is he alive? Is he dead? God, I called all the hospitals and the police station, you know, and the things that we put people through, not because we want to be ogres or, you know, terrible loved ones, but that's just the balance of dependency is it's so out of balance when we love someone and try to help someone often, you know, we We want to do the right thing, but we really don't know what the right thing is. Mm-hmm.

Right, right. And that's what I, that's what I get a lot from families is family members is, I want to do what's right. I just don't know what to do. Or he's living in my basement. You know, he's, he's sucking us dry financially. At what point, how can I turn him out? You know, how can I be so harsh?

And he wants to stop playing Dolly Parton. Or Karen Carpenter or fill in the blank, Air Supply. Stop. Right. What, whatever the behavior is, you know, hopefully the behavior isn't one that totally drives us crazy. Like for me, it would be Def Leppard or someone, at least it was like the right genre. But it's good to ask those questions. You know, how, how could I develop dependency with this person in better more useful ways. And I don't mean better, like you're gonna win the contest, you're the better mom. I'm— I mean better as opposed to not better, bad. It's okay to have judgment. Like, these are ways that are supporting their addiction and suffering. And these are ways that support accountability and relational health. Like, those are, those are two— well, this is better, you know, and this is less good. Sometimes I'll say less good instead of bad. Sometimes people will buck on the idea of good and bad. But yeah, I say, look, it's good to have judgment. It's— this is kind of a black and white thing. You know, your loved one is suffering. How can you help?

Yeah.

You don't, you don't have to You're unlikely to screw it up. I think that's one of the most helpful things I'll share with people too. I talk to family members a lot one time and then they, they, they don't follow through because they're scared that they think they're going to make it worse. They think their loved one will say no, or they've bought into some of the bullshit 12-step, 12-step stuff of They have to hit bottom. They have to want help.

Right.

You know, if they don't want it, it won't work. Well, that's not true, actually. But tell me other stuff that you think is true and I'll help you identify if it's true or not, because I know lots of stuff about this topic. Most stuff, you know, if you're an engineer, oh my God, don't get me started. I'll be the dumbest guy in the room if you start talking about math or science.

Right.

But about this part of science and addiction and how the brain works with, you know, need not be methamphetamine, but any drug that changes the chemistry of this amazing 3 pounds of matter that we have. I mean, imagine it's 3 pounds. Your, our brains are like 3 pounds. Everybody has the same size brain if you're an adult. It's 3 pounds. It's like, oh my God, 3 pounds dictates so much of what happens in our Yes, that's the brain. So start thinking more about the brain rather than the way that they hurt you or the way that they don't see you. Well, they're suffering. They're not going to win Best Kid Award.

Right. Yeah, great. That's good.

That's good.

So I guess maybe a question I'm thinking of is how will I— how would I know that it's time to ask about an intervention? Like, when's the right time? I don't— not the right time, the best. I don't know if that's the right word, but when is the time? What would indicate it?

Yep. I believe this, Dallas, that if you're— if a person is asking the question to themselves, not overtly, not at dinner, not with other people even, but they're asking themselves the question, like, should I calling it an intervention. Should I try to help? It's very unusual that the answer would be no, you shouldn't do an intervention. Intervening is just walking in with love. This is at least how I think of it. Walking in with love and compassion, working to interrupt something that's not sustainable, that is hurting a person. So why would you say no to that? There's a A family here in the South. I won't narrow it down anymore, but they engaged me almost a year ago, Dallas, to intervene. And the night before the intervention, I was supposed to fly on the 5th, the morning of the 5th of the month. And I woke up and there was a text that said, hey, uh, stop everything. We've decided to do it on our own. And, but thank you so much. We'll call you if we need help. And so I just went assumptive that they would need help because if you try to change your brakes in your car for the first time and you've never, you don't know how to change the brakes, you're probably going to need help, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and so I said, instead of, okay, talk to you next time, I said, okay, what time are you going to meet with her? And they told me all on text, 17 people on this text. And I said, okay, well, totally. Who's going to make the invitation? They told me who's going to be there. They told me, well, why don't you try this instead of that? Because if y'all sit in the car and only send one person in, you're missing the power of the group. You know, you're, you're missing one of the most important things that you can. lend to a family meeting, which is numbers and the strength of numbers when someone's in crisis. And they did it on their own and it didn't work out well. They, the person agreed to help if the per— if the, their husband, the husband left the building. So they negotiated a yes to something, but then there was no accountability for follow-up and it all fell apart. So a couple weeks ago, right before the training, Dallas, I heard from that family and I thought, wow, do I know them? And so I looked up the number and then clicked on a text from the first caller and I was like, oh my God, of course I know them. Uh, and so I've been trying to help them, you know, along the way the last few weeks. And it's so frustrating watching them work because they're so They're so resistant to actually listening to people that know what they're doing. And in that way that it can be maddening to have a child. I don't have a child, but I imagine if I have a child, I have a dog that I train and he still barks at the door every time that there's the slightest noise in the hallway. Bad dog, right? And I trained him and he still like won't listen to me. Well, he's a dog. And what do you do with the kid that keeps running into the wall? Well, if he doesn't stop wanting to run into the wall, you get him a little helmet. I've seen those kids. You know, there's a reason why it's like last ditch. Well, I had to put a helmet on him so he wouldn't injure his brain. Oh, that's totally smart. What a great— who came up with that idea? That's a good idea. Don't let anybody tell you that's a bad idea. It's like, well, what am I going to do with my loved one who drives every day and he's high as a kite or drunk? Well, cut the tires, lock the car, hide the car, sell the car, take the car away, put it in the garage, change the code on the garage door. Like, we're not helpless humans. We have lots of things that we can do. If it's not, we took the car and you're never going to drive again, but instead, we love you so much and we're all worried for you and we're worried that you're going to hurt somebody or yourself when you're driving that car and that changes everything.

Yeah.

If you get arrested for killing somebody in the car, which is possible, 'cause you're a lunatic when you're on meth, uh, shouldn't be driving 6-pound thing, 6,000-pound vehicle. Uh, well, it's not punishment, it's just an exchange. Like, we can be dependent on each other in different ways. And you're gonna be dependent on me now for rides, perhaps. I'm hip to the trip. I will help you in that way. You can't drive. And so it's presented not as a punishment, but a real thoughtful decision based on the reality of our situation. The last week, the government's been shut down for a month now or more. And, you know, I've seen these stories about SNAP. 1 in 8 American families relies on food stamps or some version of food support. Scott and I, my husband and I were talking, and both of us grew up in homes that we had government subsidies. We had actually, when it was food stamps, it wasn't a debit card.

Right.

And it was funny money and you stand in the checkout line and people would know that you were using food stamps. It wasn't just a debit card. And so there was, there was some shame around that. Like, I'm so embarrassed. Sometimes mom would send me to the store with food stamps because she didn't want to get in line at Albertsons and use the food stamps.

Hmm.

Uh, but that's us. We grew up that way. We were dependent on, you know, we, we were dependent on training programs to go to school and funding to go to school. And I got scholarships and all my brothers got scholarships because we were poor. You know, and, and sometimes it can be so easy to put, put ourselves in a different group. Like, oh, I'm not attached to that person and love them so much. And I can totally help them. Like, I'm perfectly equipped to help that person. It's not like with, with, if you're, if you need certain things like food stamps to buy groceries, that's just a reality. It just is. It's a need that you have. And if, if you don't have them, you'll suffer. And similarly, a person who's addicted or loves someone who's addicted, and they can talk themselves into, I don't know how to help, or I'm going to screw this up, or I'm going to make it worse. It's just that you haven't done it for the first time, or the second time, or third time sometimes it takes. But you have the relationship. You will get through it. And but it is scary, isn't it, Dallas? You know, I can't imagine you high just right now anyway, but, you know, people will say, God, I can't believe you used to be a meth addict.

Yeah.

It's like, that wasn't the half of it. But, you know, the truth is that was me for a long time. I was addicted for a long time. And never through that period did I at least have a conversation with myself where I said, This is just a little problem. Like I knew, I drank alcoholically. I used meth a lot. I smoked 2 packs a day. Uh, I was bulimic. I ate and purged. Uh, you know, I had a lot of stuff that I did that was hurting me, but it didn't kill me.

Hmm.

And thankfully that guy that sat me down that day, July 5th, 2002, person that I told for the first time, You don't know the half of it. I'm meth addicted. You know, it was such a relief. He's like, girl, you got to get help. I can't believe you are a meth addicted person. Like, yeah. He goes, where do you even get that? Everywhere. It's everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one point I want to get to before we, we end it, and I know you have things to do, is for those who have an idea about an intervention. And, you know, as you know, we all think it's just like the TV show, right? This surprise attack. I think it's important for— I think it's important for you to, if you could, just explain a little bit about the process and how it's an invitation.

Right on. Thanks for that, Dallas. Good. It's a really good question. If you've watched the Intervention TV show, Or heard about somebody's intervention, somebody that you know or love, and, you know, it was, it was tough or it wasn't tough. Maybe it was successful where the person is surprised. That's the model that most people use for 50 years. That's the, that's the, you know, brand of milk that most families buy. They don't even know what they're buying. It's just, you know, something in a jug and it's the way it's done. And that's, that's the story.

Yeah.

Um, Invitational Intervention goes like this. You circle up the group of people that care about, uh, an identified loved one. We, I call it the ILO, that person that I'm not going to call them a patient. I'm not going to pathologize them. I'm not going to say that, uh, they're the addicted individual. I'm not going to put any label on other than Hey, there's somebody that we all care about and love. And then we circle up. We get to know— you get to know the story, so you compare notes with each other, so you're all on the same page. And you know more so that you can speak better and more effectively to a person who's not thinking clearly. If you're talking to me and I'm on methamphetamine, I'm going to be more difficult. and challenging to speak with and communicate with in a rational way than the next person that's not impacted by methamphetamine.

Right.

And so, you invite them to their own intervention. How you do this is, you know, you turn to the person and you say, hey, Scott, you know, I love you so much. I've been worried about you. And, you know, your friends and I, family have been worried about you. And so we talked with somebody who suggested we do an invitational intervention. And so we're inviting you to a family meeting. We're going to have it tomorrow at 10:00 AM. You're invited. We're going to have it with or without you, and we hope you'll come. And so when you make the invitation, the intervention has begun. You're intervening. You're interrupting some behavior, even with new knowledge. Oh my God, they're going to have a family meeting. Who's gonna be there? Why would you do this to me? What do you want me to do? Are you gonna take me to treatment? Have you called my work? Does work know? Who knows? You know?

Mm-hmm.

And then the intervention team is honest with the person. This is who's invited if they ask. This is why we're doing it. It's not, you know, 'cause you're not going to church. It's because you're acting like a, You know, person that's really suffering. I was going to say lunatic, but, um, you know, you're acting in a way that causes great concern. I get scared. I'm scared for you. I'm scared for us. I'm scared for you.

Right.

We didn't know what to do, so we, we asked Brad or Dallas for help, and this is what he suggested. And then you have that meeting with or without them. But once the invitation is made and you say, hey, come to this meeting, we're having it with or without you, we love you so much. The intervention begins. You have the meeting, you just talk to them in simple terms. It's not rocket science. You say, this is what I've seen, this is my fear, and my hope is this, you know. And you keep it really simple. These 3 questions that you— each person asks themselves: what have I seen, what's my hope, what are my fears? And it opens up the possibility of how do you help? What have we seen? What scares us? What do we love about you? What do we see things that are still going good for you? You still have a job. You still have a relationship with the kids. You still, if you're if you're maybe one of us, you're like, you know, you still have. You know, it's not about having kids and being in relation with the kids. But boy, if you if you talk to any of the gay guys or queer women that are trans people that I've intervened on the last ten years. Like dogs are often really important.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, including them. It doesn't have to be a child. There are things, people, places, and things that we love. And so we just lean into those things, identify them, and then don't use them as collateral. Like you'll never see little Shishi if you don't go to treatment. You say something like, oh my God, she's gonna be so happy when you get home and you're doing better.

You know?

She gets fed 3 times a day. She gets walked.

Right.

You get her haircut, you get her hair did, you know, all those things that establish that you're able to do the things you want to do with the people that you love and the creatures, you know? Yeah. Because I love my dogs more than many people. I should, I certainly know them better than most people. So. That's the short version of invitational intervention. It sounds daring, but in fact, it's just falling into the easiest path, which is you love somebody, you don't step away, you look at them, you see them, and you talk with them and you try to help. That's what we do.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love this too. If you're a loved one listening is This is what I've seen. These are my hopes for you. And, and these are my fears. It's a good, I think that's a good model to, to, to frame a conversation that you're having with someone, right?

Yeah. No, no matter what it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

No matter what it is. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eye to eye, heart to heart. Don't read a, don't write it down. Don't put it in a letter.

Mm-hmm.

You know, just, just like if we had been having this conversation, Dallas, and I'm reading every word You know, it's all written down. It's going to be a very different conversation, right? Because it's outside my comfort zone. You know, if I, if I'm talking with you just eye to eye, heart to heart, and have some idea of where I'm going to go with what have I seen, what are my fears, what's my hope? You know, I can't screw it up. Did you stifle a yawn? I saw it, Dallas. Oh my God. If you're in an intervention and you're the interventionist and you stifle a yawn.

Yeah.

Oh, it's bad, huh? Did you just almost yawn? I did. I almost yawned. I love you. This is hard work.

Yeah.

Getting up and talking. I just made, I just had a hot cup of coffee and I just poured it into my ice from my water. Made myself an iced coffee, Dallas.

I love that. Very resourceful.

Like MacGyver. Yeah.

Very resourceful.

What do you do?

You do what you gotta do when you're in Miami.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh my, this has been really, uh, great. Very helpful. I think this is really gonna help a lot of people, and I think it's also, it's gonna be relieving to families to say we don't have to surprise them. Like, you know, we don't have to ambush And, and when you invite, when you invite the identified loved one to the intervention, they most of the time show up, right?

Yeah. Most of the time they show up. Very little to do with if they say yes or no, because sometimes people that say yes don't. And then what happens is if a person doesn't show up, you say, okay, Mom, Dallas, text them. Ask him where he is, what time he's going to be here. If he or she says they're not coming, say, okay, well, we're going to have a meeting here. We'll call you in a little bit and then invite them to breakfast. You make it as easy as possible for them to say yes. And then if you need to go to their house, you know, often Dallas, it's the person is downstairs in the basement or upstairs in the spare bedroom or, you know, they're, it's not like they're in China or something. You know, we don't know where they are.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Yeah. Well, thank you for your work. Such great work. And you're, you're just one of the most generous people I've ever met. I mean, I, well, I appreciate that. You do. One thing, and I said this in the training, one thing that my first impression of you is I went to the Chemsex Summit last March in LA and just feeling, feeling all this imposter syndrome, you know, around all these, all these clinicians and all these big people. And here I am walking in. Uh, first time in LA, right? But you, you've made an effort to come sit by me and introduce yourself and talk to me. And then, and then at dinner you sat by me and you talked to me and it was just, it was very comforting, very healing too for me. And so you've been generous, very generous with your knowledge and time ever since. And I appreciate it.

Thanks, Dallas. It's growing up Quaker. I think it makes it easier to fall into this sort of work because Even for all the crazy stuff that was part of being an evangelical Quaker, which is a different subset, you know, I think we all have tools that we've grown up with, and if we can identify what they are and use them in a different, better way, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I see you and the work you're doing, and it really inspires me too. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And is there anything I missed today? Anything that you think I should—

Brush your teeth twice a day. Get a Waterpik. It really helps with gum health. The things I, I could have learned earlier and I didn't. I mean, we talked about meth mouth, or at least the faces of meth, that, that campaign when we were younger.

Right.

But, uh, you know, a lot of us, uh, when, when I got help, like one of my biggest fears was I was gonna lose all my teeth because my teeth were in bad shape because it's actually not the teeth that suffer first. It's, it's our gums.

The gums.

And the gums get sick and then, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Gum don't have nice— they can't keep nice things like the teeth because they're not healthy. And, uh, you know, it's just like my, one of my friends, Anson, he was really helpful to me in the beginning, uh, because he like, he investigated, he said, hey, I found the gentle dentist. And he had like looked up He knew that I was really scared of that and I was maybe a year into my recovery journey and he's like, you know, she's average. She calls herself the gentle dentist. And I was like, that's bullshit. She's probably the worst in the— and he's like, well, give it a shot, you know? And I went and let me tell you, she was the gentle dentist.

Oh, nice.

She helped me so much. And there are so many people that want to be helpful and useful and Yeah. And, uh, yeah, if, if my story is any indicator, and for sure it reflects the people I've worked with over the years, is that, uh, you know, I, I find people want to do the right thing and people want to do better. And if we can help them with knowledge of how to do that, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Thank you, Brad, very much for your time today.

Good to see you.

Appreciate you.

And purple is a royal color, Dallas.

That's great. Good to see you.

You look great.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And for you listening, if you want to join in the conversation, don't forget you can comment on YouTube, which is my preference, or you can comment on Spotify or just send us a DM. And check out Brad's— all of Brad's, uh, websites and social media we're going to put in the show notes. Uh, check him out and support him too. All right, see you next week.

Thanks, Dallas.