EP 2:39 Chemsex Advocacy: A Gay Man Using His Voice with Giulio

Hey y'all, I'm so proud to announce that after the recording of this episode, my guest Giulio, who at the time was Mr. Gay Italy and he was in the running for Mr. Gay World, won the whole damn thing on December 1st, 2025. He was crowned Mr. Gay World, and when he won, he held up a picture of David Stewart, who was seen as the father of the chemsex movement, who coined the term chemsex. Julio now has a worldwide platform to advocate for men who have sex with men and work to eradicate this epidemic. What an honor to have this conversation with Julio, and how encouraging it is to see a man, a gay man, forget about the stigma and stand up for his brothers and stand up for what's right. I'm praying that this kind of courage catches on. Julio is making his recovery story matter and is definitely recovering out loud. I hope this will motivate and inspire you to add to the dialogue. All right, enjoy the episode. I want to talk about— let's talk first about your experience with chemsex, but I really want to know more about Mr. Gay World. What is that? And what does it entail and all that kind of thing? But before we get into that, Why are you passionate about chemsex and what's, what's driving this activism on your part?

Well, the, the activism in, in the sense related to the, to the chemsex topic is of course related to the fact that I myself had my, my share of, of journey into the chemsex.

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with Chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, Stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas Bragg. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for being here. You have so many options for podcasts and you chose this one. I'm really excited, really excited about that. I'm getting a lot of feedback from you guys on the recent podcasts that we're doing. You like the direction we're going in for the most part. Um, and so if you have other feedback, please let me know. If you want other topics, other people, um, you want us to go in different directions, I'd love to hear what you want to hear about. Um, but anyway, thank you. And don't forget to rate and review the podcast, share, click download. Every time you listen to it, it counts as a quote unquote download, and that will cause, uh, the, the, the algorithm to put the podcast in different hands. And so if somebody's listening to a sobriety podcast, uh, it will suggest, hey, if you like sobriety podcasts, how about this one? But we have to have enough listeners and downloads for that to happen. So please remember to rate and review. I would love that. Um, today I'm excited to introduce an international star. Really? Um, he is Mr. Gay Italy 2010. He's Mr. Gay Europe 2011. And now he's in the running for Mr. Gay World 2025. And his name is Giulio. Yay for me for getting that right.

Yes.

But he, I noticed Giulio as on Instagram because he is involved in, as an activist. and outspoken in terms of increasing the dialogue around chemsex and chemsex misuse. And I've seen him interviewed on different pages. And so I thought I need to have him on podcasts, need to do that. And so reached out and of course you were so, you were so willing and generous with your time, Giulio. So thank you for coming to the podcast.

Thank you for inviting me. When you actually asked me to join you on this, I was like, oh my God, I'm really amused because I'm just like a guy who's trying to do the right thing and being able to take part of this mission of yours is great. I'm a fan of your work. I love the way you engage with people and the way you deal with these issues. So, I'm really proud to be here with you today. Thank you.

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You know, I never know kind of how I come across to people. And so, it's just interesting to hear different, different leaders from around the world come and say, I like what you're doing, right? Um, so it's very validating and affirming for me. So I appreciate that. Um, so Julio, could you tell us, I want to talk about, let's talk first about your experience with Chemsex, but I really want to know more about Mr. Gay World. What is that? And, and what does it entail and all that kind of thing? But before we get into that, Why are you passionate about chemsex and what's driving this activism on your part?

Well, the activism in the sense related to the chemsex topic is of course related to the fact that I myself had my share of journey into the chemsex. And I recently got out of it and I'm still in my path for recovery because I never lower my guard. So Um, I decided as soon as I got, got out of it and when Mr. Gaylord contacted me to offer me the chance to, to run for the, for this, for this, uh, title, I decided to link the 2 things and I saw it as a, as a sign and also an opportunity to use that platform to go back to be a gay activist as I used to be 15 years ago. And this time bringing Mm-hmm. this topic because back every time I ran for a competition as a candidate, I have to bring a topic that is LGBTQI+ related. Back then in Italy, we had issues with coming out. So for me was putting the stress on come out, come out, whoever you are, whatever you are, because there's nothing wrong about it. This time, considering the times we're living in and considering my own experience, I honestly saw it as a sign that they were asking me to, to join the competition and say, okay, this is probably me having to come back. wearing that, that sash again and use it to spread awareness and, you know, information about what chemsex really is. Because I think, I think it's this, this is a topic that is, is quite difficult to talk about. People are, are a bit afraid to, afraid to actually even just share a video on their socials because they think they might just be linked to it.

Yeah.

And I felt like it's time to, to, to kill the stigma a bit and just to be a bit more open-minded because chemsex is not just a problem of drugs use, it's way more than that. So my mission is now to try to, using my own experience, to open a dialogue that centers around empathy first because I've been there.

Yeah. Why do you think there's such a fear? You know, I mean, I have a lot of guys who will DM me or even join, even hire me as their coach, but they don't follow me. on any platform because they're so afraid to be linked. I mean, I guess a follow they think will even link them to chemsex somehow. What is the fear around that? What are we doing to ourselves, I guess?

Again, because people tend to see chemsex as a problem of drugs addiction and use, we in society, we tend to demonize drugs as this specific addiction that is just the one that is wrong when we don't consider that addictions, uh, it's a term that is way broader than just the drugs use. We as a society, as human beings, actually, I would say we like, we tend to like to intoxicate ourselves and to use stimulants starting from sugar, um, alcohol, tobacco, um, pornography. And as everything in small doses, and if you know how to manage it, stimulants can be fun.

Yeah.

And Chemsex and the drugs related to chemsex are also part of those stimulants. And so to my point of view, I don't see much difference between a person that engages in chemsex and a person that has compulsive shopping online or, you know, or likes to scroll on a daily basis on their phone, even when they're walking in the street. They are just using— they have an addiction and they're more or less aware of that.

Mm-hmm.

We just, we just need to change the way we look at these addictions and understanding that the mechanism at the base is the same for each one of us, which is the dopamine reward system. Simple as that.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, you know, no secret. We've talked about it on here a lot is that it's so much easier to come forward and say, I'm an alcoholic, right? Than to say, I use crystal meth. And a lot of, a lot of guys who are in chemsex recovery, sorry, I'm I have to, I forgot I have to position myself in the middle of this camera. Anyway, I mean, a lot of, a lot of guys in chemsex recovery will attend AA meetings because they don't want to openly say that they have a crystal meth problem or a past with it, you know? And so it's just, it's amazing to me that, like you're saying, if we could just Take out the substance and look at the problem, right?

Yeah. Alcohol is socially accepted. That's why probably for some people it's easier to, you know, because I actually, if I go out with a group of friends and I don't take any drink, it could even happen that they tell you why you're not drinking. Like, it's almost like weird that you're there without anything, you know? You know what I mean? So it's just a way we actually are structured as a society and what we define right or wrong that we maybe need to revise and recontextualize because things changed greatly with our new substances and we know more than we knew before. So it's maybe it's time to update our ideas of certain things.

Yes. And what you're doing is helping that. You're getting this dialogue, you're making people notice and talk about it. And I have said this a billion times on this podcast is why aren't more leaders in the gay community taking up this issue and talking about it? And so I really want to applaud you for using your platform for it.

Thanks. And I think it's, it's also a way to, to tell people, get curious. Um, because that's what I did. I, I got curious about, okay, what is really addiction? How does it work? Why is this something that at some point it might get out of control? And with that curiosity is the approach that I think we should have when it comes, rather than just pointing fingers to people, we should just be a bit more curious to understand what's the process that leads to getting out of control and not being able to stop. It's not that we want to. So there are books, there are podcasts online, anything. I've been reading a book of this neurologist, Dr. Anna Lembke, and I found, and people also That's a dopamine nation. It's a great book because I, I literally, I learned so much and that was one of the ways it, uh, actually then, and we'll talk about it later, maybe that helped me with my recovery. I helped myself by studying things.

Curiosity is such a big word. I love that. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a curious approach. Yeah.

Yeah, right, right, right. Are you curious in other parts of your life too? I mean, are you a naturally curious person?

Well, yes, I will say that as a neurodivergent person, I'm autistic as I told you, and also ADHD. I tend to put focus on things, on certain topics, and every time you want, it's different. And then I overfocus on that. In that case, in the case of drugs and addiction, I hyperfocused on that because of my attitude on being curious as a person and also as a neurodivergent person. So I would say this, that curiosity is also one of my qualities.

So you hyperfocused on getting better and understanding.

I hyperfocused on, yeah, basically on learning and studying the reward dopamine system. Almost, almost like I say, I say, well, I was attending university in order to become a neurologist myself. I was spending hours a day and my ex-partner was like, how can you do that? Like, it's so boring. It's not boring for me. I'm learning a lot. And I'm, I always say, if you don't know something, you don't see it. And therefore, if you don't see it, you cannot do anything about it. But if you know something because you're studying it, then you start to see it for what it is and you can act on it.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a big difference. There's a big difference in asking why. Like, if you say, why am I like this in a curious way? Or you can say, why am I like this in a condemning way? Which is not even a question. It's not a question, right? It's this helpless, like, why am I like this? I'm such a loser, blah, blah, blah, right? That's different. So I always say there's a difference between curiosity and condemnation, and the curiosity is what's gonna get you out of where you are.

Yeah. And also it helps you to stop being so harsh on yourself because once you understand certain scientific mechanism of, okay, this is happening for this exact reason, then you start, okay, I'm not that bad as a person. I'm just, I'm just stuck in this neurological mechanism that is drawing me to, to actually have an addiction for this specific, specific thing. And yeah, I think, I think that that's, that, that's the thing that helped me a lot and also understanding many other things in terms of how dopamine works in the brain and how many other things that we don't see on a daily basis are actually harming us as a society, starting again from social media. And social media themselves, I think that they act on a double level in terms of damaging us. And One of the first ones is that of course they are dopamine release. It's a stimulant itself. The fact that we constantly scroll these reels, not even knowing why we're doing it, but it's the need of a stimulant for the brain. So we are literally abusing of this dopamine release on a daily basis without realizing. And a second harmful aspect of social media is the fact that they are disconnecting us from each other more than connecting us. We are way more disconnected today than we were 10, 15 years ago because of all the social media that we— they're literally stealing time from actually looking around and engaging with people. I remember 12 years ago when I arrived here in London, in the tube, people would just chat. They would talk to each other. If you look inside the tube on a journey in a tube today, nobody's talking anymore. Everyone is on their phones.

Mm-hmm.

And therefore, this is isolation or being less connected is, I think it's one of the issues also that links to chemsex. I was watching a very interesting, uh, TED Talk, uh, recently. Uh, it was suggested actually to me from, uh, Controlling Chemsex. I've done therapy with them, remember? And they said, watch this podcast. This is, uh, this TED Talk. Um, it's, um, from a journalist, a British journalist, uh, Johann Hari. And he says, oh yeah, the opposite, the opposite of, of, uh, addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. Therefore, if you see this with this idea in mind and you contextualize social media, how disconnected we are, you understand that we have a problem, a social problem here that gets fixed with chemsex.

Yeah, it gets fixed with chemsex. That's right. The chemsex problem is really just, uh, uh, a reflection, an illustration of where we are in our culture. Don't you think?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in all of your studies and all of your hyperfixation, what did you learn about yourself? Like what was drawing you to the Gibbsex world?

Well, first of all, I learned so far of the interviews that I've been releasing about this topic, only talked about the problematic side of the chemsex.

Sure.

But, um, maybe it's also useful to talk about the fact that it starts not necessarily in a problematic way. And there are many people out there actually, uh, if I'm not wrong, uh, Ignacio from Controlling Context was saying that there's a 75% of the, uh, LGBTQIA+ community that doesn't consider chemsex as an issue. Probably because they're still in that phase of, I'm in control. I'm having, I'm just having a good time. What do you want, bro? That kind of thing, you know? Um, and I was probably one of them in the, at the beginning. Like I would, I would, yeah, I would come to you and say, why are you, why are you bothering me? Like, I'm, I'm just having a good time. Everything is under control. I don't see this as a problem.

Mm-hmm.

But I also learned with my own experience that it's strictly connected to, uh, an emotional state. that you are living in that moment of your life or life happenings, the circumstances that change. And of course, again, linked to, to the, how connected you feel with people, how happy you are in life. And exactly my, my, the arch of my, on my, my chems use and my story with chems use. And then the chemsex is very, very much linked to life happenings, most specific moments of my life that changed. And with that changing changed the use that was, that I was making of the drugs.

Mm-hmm.

So originally they got introduced to me as recreational drugs, which is the first, uh, point that was wrong cuz they are not recreational drugs. They have this difference. And a pill of MD doesn't get you horny that you want to, you know, engage with the whole dance floor. A pill of MD makes you happy. You're having a good time. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Gigi, mephedrone, crystal meth, they, they get you sexual. I felt like my sexual drive was, you know, hitched by, by them.

Sure.

And at the beginning I didn't understand that. It was because me and my partner, we started to use them again because they got offered to us as recreational drugs and we didn't notice this. We didn't realize that. But then gradually we even among friends, when I, when I on a house party with friends, we will feel like prone to touch each other, um, like never before. But we never quite understood this, that was coming from that specific kind of drugs because they were meant to be used for sex, as, as we know in chemsex. So, Right. at the beginning, my use was pretty much innocent, uh, under control. I would say without knowing it, I was applying the 30 days rule. Because we were going out, you know, on average once a month. So we would place automatically something like 30 days in between use of chems. And that will help the brain to restore homeostasis, as we know, is the balance of pleasure and pain. So we wouldn't feel so addicted as we, as I, as I became after.

And can you, can you tell us about the 30-day rule? What is that?

Um, it's still on the, on the same book that I read of, uh, Anna Lembke. Uh, basically the brain takes something like 30 days to restore homeostasis. Homeostasis is that balance that we normally tend to have in our brain between pleasure and pain, which is also another way to put it, that neurotransmitters and neurotransmitters are equally paired. When we abuse of something like dopamine, there is a neurotransmitter, if I'm not wrong. When we abuse of that, the brain starts to shut off the neuroreceptors to avoid that abundance that we have of. So we tend to unbalance that scale and it stays unbalanced for as long as we insist in bombarding our brain with—

Drugs.

whatever is the, the substance or the action that we're doing in the moment that is stimulating the production of dopamine.

Yeah.

The result of that, as we know, is the fact that then we, for as much pleasure we, we, we cause ourselves, then we're gonna have an, um, uh, an opposite reaction of the brain in terms of on the side of the pain. That's the down. That's why the longer we expose ourselves to the pleasure and the, the drugs use, the longer is our comedown or impulsive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Um, and so you, you guys, you and your partner were introduced recreationally and you were kind of recreational. It was like a 30-day thing of, of going out, whatever, right?

Yeah, I never called sick to work, just having a good time. Um, we were, we had this rule that we will drop, uh, using drugs at the, at the place where we were. We would never carry it on. with us home, if we had some leftovers, we were able to store them for the next time. So we would spare the money for the next time. So, and this is already a sign that we were pretty much in control because when people are not in control for as long as they have it, they need to finish it. And this I know because I've seen it. So that was, you know, you know, when you are in control by these things.

So, oh yeah. Yeah.

That was the honeymoon phase, let's say, of, of the, of my Campsuse. Things changed when we broke up. First of all, COVID happened. A lot happened. You know, we lost the flat because he lost his job and everything. But anyway, going straight to the point where it became problematic, the fact that we broke up and I went through a lot of pain brought me to actually really try to relieve myself with the drugs. I true myself at parties. I stayed more with friends and the more I was trying to not think about my pain and by using drugs, the more I started to be addicted to it. And I didn't notice that. I thought that I would remain in control, but that was my mistake. Because then, of course, when you use more, then you tend to want to continue to use more because your body gets used to that and it requires more afterwards.

Mm-hmm.

Even if I was, I was using just G and, and methadone. And feeling naively safe because I was far away from crystal meth, I then got into, into trouble myself because of methadone specifically, I believe, more than the G.

Mm-hmm.

Because I underestimated how powerful it can be in your brain, um, in terms of giving you even paranoia or, uh, psychosis. I remember at a specific night, um, I was with another partner of mine, uh, And I was convinced, literally convinced that he will, they will, there was a, um, a planning action between him and another couple of friends of mine that they wanted to kill me. So I had, I had to call my brother home in Italy in the middle of the night because I was honestly scared.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, and that was just coming from GM Ephedrine.

GM Ephedrine. So I want to, for the, for the listeners. You know, if in the US we don't really see methadone often. So it, it, and if you're listening, it's not methadone to get you off of opioids. It's methadone, M-E-P-H, in case you don't know.

Yeah.

Um, methadone is used, it, it's big. It's largely used in Europe, um, in, in the European countries. And so it's kind of, to me, it's meth light. It's like methamphetamine light. Quote unquote. However, with prolonged use of it and enough use of it, it has very similar effects as what you're saying too, right? So I just wanted to make sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so like you're saying that the experience of life, like COVID and losing the apartment, right? And then breakup, you already have the experience with the drug.

Yeah.

And then those, it sounds like those events exasperated, it took you out of the honeymoon phase, right? And so what would you call your next phase?

The problematic phase.

Yeah.

The abuse phase, the phase where, because I wasn't happy in my life and I was put down by life happenings, I wouldn't feel like connecting with people. I would rather run for cover. and relief to something else that was faster, you know, like drugs use. And this is also another of the things that in this TED Talk I learned, the fact that when we can't bear with the feeling of being present in our life, that feeling of being present in your life in a moment that your life is not going well, you tend to run away from it. And we know how easy it is to, how, how actually, no, it's how good is the feeling that some, some drugs can give you in, in making you feel like all the problems are gone and you literally manage to switch them off. They shut them down. They, they don't exist anymore for that amount of hours that you are on drugs.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's why it's probably one of the easiest ways rather than calling a friend. To, to run for cover.

Yeah.

To just obliterate yourself in that.

Right, right. And so that's what you were doing. You were escaping all of this heartache, right?

And it became problematic because for the first time I started to link massively the using of those chems that for me until a few months earlier with my ex were just recreational with sexual activity.

Yeah. Okay.

So we, I was, rather than just going to a party, I would go to sex parties. So that was specifically, that's why I started when, when they asked me, when, when does your chemsex issue start? Because we know that chemsex is the use of, of these substances with the finality, with the sexual finality. Then I start to say, okay, from that specific moment, everything before that, I don't judge it chemsex. It was, it wasn't chemsex to me. You understand? So from that moment onwards, then my chemsex life, an issue started. And I have to say that I liked it. And he is, as a, as a person that because of his neurodivergency, uh, autistic, never had this, this easy life in engaging in random sex with a stranger like this, like cold turkey, like he was saying. Um, um, Using the chems medicated that aspect because it got me more secure in myself. I was able to engage in random sex with random people, honestly, like this. And that was so appealing to me on a psychological level.

Mm-hmm.

And, and this is another of the things that I wanted to mention, which is that chemsex can be a double addiction. Um, it acts on you on, on a biological level, which is the dopamine release and all that stuff that we just mentioned. But there is a huge component that is psychological and you might be recovered. You might not have, uh, not have cravings anymore, uh, on, on, on the stage of recovery at some point, but the psychological aspect of it might stick to you for life. The fact that you still miss that part of you, who you were back then, how strong are you? That sticks to you. So it's a different, it's not that just the abstinence from the drugs and the recovery is going to, is going to change that. You need to work on that on a, on a psychological level within yourself.

Don't you think there's a grieving process you have to go through?

Absolutely. I, I, I've been grieving. I'm still grieving that part of me, that version of me. It's almost like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but I, even if at the beginning I was hating it because, um, it changed me in a way that I would do things that are totally the opposite of what I would do sober. But at the same time, I was missing it because I liked how more secure of myself I felt. And the bad part was really more during the comedown where I was coming back to my conscious self. And I would just maybe disagree with some choices because we know that we lower our, our, um, let's say standards sometimes. I, I did things with people that I probably wouldn't interact in sobriety, but in the heat of the moment, you just do it. So that was the only annoying part of it. But for the rest, I'm still grieving how, how secure I felt in sex. And it was, it was really appealing. It is really appealing.

Mm-hmm.

To be also a bit more opening about this with you, um, I, I dropped sober sex for 4 years. And when I say dropped, I mean that while I was engaging in chemsex, even if I had a partner with me, we will have maybe some silly oral sex here and there, but no more than that. So actual sober sex wasn't happening for a lot, for a long time. Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and now it's an issue. Now it's a problem. Now I miss having sex and enjoying sex because I am greatly damaged on the, on the arousal side.

Yeah.

My brain doesn't, doesn't recognize that we are experiencing a situation in which we should feel aroused because a guy is looking at us in a certain way, because a guy is kissing us, because, you know, someone is showing interest in us. So that would already immediately makes you feel aroused a bit normally, but because, because of that neuro, neuro, um, neurological pathway has been damaged or weakened by the other one that you created while you were using chems, which is the brain knows now that every time you do a line of methadone, it's going to feel, you're going to, you're going to feel aroused. Then it wants that. It misses that.

Right. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's fused, fused together. Right.

Yeah. And it's almost like I have to go through a second puberty now to be able to re-experience arousal on my own without these substances.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what does that process look like for you? Like, where are you? Do you mind me asking how early on in recovery are you in terms of how long have you been substance-free or methadone-free?

Well, the last time that I heavily used was May. this past May. Uh, and to be honest with you, uh, I cried before going where I was going because I didn't want to, but I was still in a phase where either I was joining, um, the group, my partner in whatever we decided to do, or I was cut out. And this is another big aspect that I had at some point to break up also with my partner, unfortunately. Um, because we, we were starting to take 2 different ways. 2 different paths. Mine was more prone to recovery. He had some very bad, um, let's say, uh, working experiences that put him down emotionally and psychologically. And that, again, you see another, another life event that caused him to fall. And we, we went different ways, completely opposite ways. And the more I tried to, to stay close to him, the more he was giving me FOMO, the worries me with, it was, Endangering my recovery. So I had to first take care of myself.

Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Um, I just wanna pause for a minute cuz you're saying a lot of good stuff. Yeah.

Sorry.

A lot of good stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's great. It's great. Um, can you talk about how your neurodivergence— you, you said that as a neurodivergent person, it was harder for you to just hook up randomly. Right. And what, why is that? And talk a little bit about, if you can, because this is going to be, this is what I'm hearing a lot lately is that the chemsex is giving me, not me, I'm just saying from the listener's standpoint, it's giving me a break from my brain. Like either I either have ADHD or I'm neurodivergent in other, some way like borderline personality or whatever. Doing meth or mephedrone is the only time this gets quiet, right? Is that something that you experience as part of the addiction?

Um, yes. And I always, okay, first of all, maybe I should point out that I discovered to be a neurodivergent person, um, one year ago.

Ah, okay.

So for the majority of my life, I always, I always thought that mine was just anxiety. for, you know, sexual performance anxiety that we all have in a way. Um, different, different levels, but I always thought it was just that. And I found it way easier to just, uh, find a person that could become my partner and then having good sex with this person because I could create that comfort zone that now I know as a neurotypical, as a neurodivergent person, I need to perform sexually. So it's all about feeling—

Gotcha.

Comfortable.

Okay.

In a safe environment with a person that you already know and everything is already established in terms of roles and everything. And that thing that you were saying about, uh, shutting down the brain, making it quiet, is because, um, with a random person that you just met and you just want to have sex, uh, a neurodivergent person tends to overthink the hell of it, like a lot. Um, And this distracts you from the actual performance. That's why for me it was almost impossible to really have a good experience with a, as a first good experience with a new person, because I was too much distracted by my own self, by the, the actual being present in the moment with that person.

Mm-hmm.

Um, studying, um, autism, I, I learned that autistic people feel more comfortable in, um, experiencing sexuality with objects. Okay, which could be masturbating on a porn computer, because there is a sense of control of that what's happening in the moment, more than actually finding themselves physically in the room with someone else, because they lack of that full control that they need to feel safe, to feel, you know, comfortable.

Hmm.

With this base, with this idea, you understand why when I started to use cams, and I could shut down all of those voices, all that overthinking in my, in my brain that usually will happen. I could just, I could just perform. I could just go straight to the point. And, and also we know that we, we have to take, we take, um, Viagra and stuff. So literally the physical support that you give to the performance is minimum. Everything else is induced by substances, pills. You got erection from the pills, you got the arousal from the substances. So all you have to do is just move the hips really.

Right. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Such a real— yeah. It's such a— takes all the intimacy out of it, doesn't it?

Oh yes. We forget that, uh, sex starts from kissing. One of the things that I'm appreciating, uh, I'm, I'm appreciating a lot of this process of recovery and reappropriating of my sober sex is that I am re-experiencing passionate kissing. It's something that I realized. The moment that I had the first one recently, that I missed that. And it's crazy if you consider that I've been with a partner for, for the past 3 years, you know, because we were so much into the, into the chems use that we forgot about being passionate in a, in a, you know, natural way. It's crazy.

Yeah. So, so that, that's going to lead me into, you went 4 years with no sober sex. Now you are. Grieving the person that you were, um, on the, on the chemsex. So, but you're also discovering new things like passionate kissing in your journey of rediscovering sober sex. So I guess, can you talk to us about how do you deal with the, the grieving of that, that person first? And then can you talk about what has your process been for re— reintegrating sexually for that, this second puberty you're in? I mean, basically in this, the second puberty. You're trying to figure out what's my, what's my natural arousal and what was, what's meth or what's methadone, right? What's chemsex, you know, and, and, and how do I rebuild that? How do I get the brain aroused again by just natural, you know, bodies and sex? Anyway, what is your process there?

Um, since I wasn't sure about what was the best approach to it, I, I prefer to talk to someone that we both know, which is the, uh, Dr. Mauricio Alvarez. Uh, I had a little interview with him. Um, and he told me that it's, it's, it's a long process and it requires a lot of patience and love with yourself. Um, yes, because you, you, you, first of all, you need to be honest and just don't have expectations. First of all, yourself, and then to let the other person know also not to have expectations and set boundaries and set, set goals.

Yeah.

So today we're going to go this far. And then if it happens that you go over that, fine. Um, so my approach right now is just to, um, make peace with myself, understanding that it cannot be as it was on, on cams and, uh, just be patient and, and practice and trying to, to literally just, uh, not by not setting boundaries, just to just even just staying on bed naked with someone and re-experiencing touching, re-experiencing the moment. And a little bit of obstacle comes from the fact that you are too much self-aware because you're used not to be there. We don't—

Yeah.

But I feel distracted by any other senses. So maybe using blinds or just in the darkness, it would be already removing visuals and sensories. distractions and you just focus on the touch, for example, because you don't see anything or, you know, it's literally just narrowing and removing any other kind of distraction, narrowing your senses to what you want it to be in that moment.

I see.

It could be. So yeah, that's that word.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important for the listeners to hear that yes, you grieve the sex that you had and the, and the person you were on it. And the reward of rediscovering intimacy and touch and rediscovering passionate kissing and rediscovering sex on the other side of this is something that is going to be even more rewarding and help you with the grieving process. You're going to grieve less what you were on chemsex because you have more of who you are after. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, um, it's not that, um, sex wasn't good when, when I was, uh, during my, you know, sober years.

Sure.

Uh, I, I remember one of my best sex was with a partner that we stayed together 2 years and we were like rabbits.

Yeah.

Every week. Um, that was, that was one of the best sex of my life. And I, I didn't, I had no idea what drugs were back then. Um, so I, it's not that. sex was great in my life only on chems. It's just the fact that it got amplified and, and, you know, enhanced by the drugs and I could open myself to even strangers and just be, you know, like, yeah, whatever.

Yeah.

That's something that if you accept the fact that it might just be gone and, and you just go back to that version of yourself that prefers to have first intimacy with a person to get to know the person first, I think that it's easily achievable and I will stop missing, um, that piece of me that was just, uh, raw and a bit cold and superficial. Sacrificing something like passionate kissing isn't worth it to my point of view now. Yeah. And I'm glad that I'm going back to that because it's, it's meaningful. It's real connection. It's, it's, it's a different kind of making love, let's say.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find yourself more open? Now, in terms of when you're meeting people, I mean, does the, has this curbed the neurodivergency of introversion a little bit?

Um, yeah, in a way, um, because I know exactly what it is and why I, I work in certain ways rather than other people. Uh, I automatically feel confident in just saying it. Um, there's nothing wrong or bad about it. It's just the way I am. And if you want to connect with me for who I am, fine. Otherwise, Uh, that's already a sign for me that maybe we are not made for each other because if you cannot understand that I'm just simply not disabled, but just different from you, uh, my brain connects the dots in a different way from your, from your brain.

Mm-hmm. Right. Okay.

Um, and also from the moment that I opened about my chems use and, and to basically everyone, I felt liberated when I told my parents, for example, it was almost like a second coming out.

But, you know, oh yeah.

Um, oh yeah, it helped to recover. You know, it, you feel that you're not, you don't have any area of shadows in you that you are hiding and that helps you to feel better with yourself again.

Right.

Yeah.

Great. I hope that the listeners hear that, you know, because it is like a second coming out. Uh, and the more people you tell the, the, the easier it is and the more free you feel. And, you know, it's just, there's a release inside. There's just a release that happens. I think.

You feel stronger with your decision.

What'd you say?

You feel stronger with your decision of, of, you know, dropping it and just embracing recovery the moment that you open to everyone. It's called like brutal honesty, but it's very effective.

Right. Brutal honesty, radical honesty. Okay. So in May, You cried before you went to the sex party because you had to go or be rejected, it sounds like, right? Um, and, and so you went anyway. And here's the thing, like, if you're listening, sometimes toward the end you will, like, you'll go to the sex party or you'll use, but you really just don't want to. I remember, you know, not to be graphic, but I remember kind of putting the The thing around my arm with tourniquet, tourniquet. I don't know, the ring around my arm to inject, wiping tears from my eyes as I got the needle ready. Like I did, I was so sad that I was doing it, but I, but my body kept moving.

Mm-hmm.

To do it, you know? And that, that was the end toward, that was, you know, toward the end. That's when, you know, like your heart has changed. But your body hasn't, but your body just hasn't caught up yet. Um, so what was the final, was that the final straw for you? What was your process like then, uh, in getting out of the chemsex world?

Um, okay, to be fair, I, I, after that, um, I had to break up with my partner, of course. Um, and I stayed sober for months after, uh, May. And, and then I, because I broke up with him, I decided to, uh, reach out to Controlling Chemsex because I was scared that just like it happened in the past, a breakup could just bring me back to, uh, you know, the drugs use and killing my pain with, with, with that.

Yeah.

Um, and I have to say, I, I had cravings. I, I, it wasn't easy. It was a very slow process and I had to, I had to to work more on a daily basis saying, okay, I took home this day. Today is gone. I managed to stay clean and not to use rather than focusing on the long run because otherwise I will freak out and I will probably think, yeah, I'm not going to make it. You know, so I would just go day by day and, and still, it still is like this. Uh, not, not too long ago it was Halloween and it was a big, uh, red alarm, like red flag for me because normally I would go to a party. Normally I would go I don't know, somewhere and then being wasted with the sole purpose of just using because then every party becomes just an excuse to use as we know.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's why also another way you realize that something changed instead of selecting the party for the sake of the DJ or whatever it is that is related to the party. It's just a random party, but it's just an excuse to use. And what I'm doing now is I'm trying to avoid situations where I could be tempted, but I don't deny that I miss going to a party. I miss, you know, the loud music, feeling the beats hitting inside your chest and being with friends. But because there's no, sometimes there's not much alternative. And again, either you join the wolves or you're cut out. At the moment, I feel a bit cut out. And for reason, I'm trying to go back to a feeling of control that will allow me eventually, uh, in case if I want to have a night of fun, just to go for it without feeling the fear that everything will start over again.

Yeah.

Yeah. If I'm a, a, a moralistic approach will be like, oh no, I'm not gonna ever gonna do that. I, I, I, I don't feel like that. I feel like as, as Mauricio Alvarez, uh, in the interview told me, like, Drugs can be fun if you know how to manage them. Some of them can be fun if you know how to manage them. I don't want to say completely, I'm never going to consider it. I just want to be sure that I'm in control.

Right. Right. Yes. And I would say to you listening is that if you, what I suggest is a calculated risk in terms of if, you know, when you feel ready and you go, want to go out and do, you know, whatever the choices, maybe it's Molly or something, I don't know, that you also let everyone know around you that this is your first time, right? That you have people checking in with you, that you have somebody to check in with at the end of the night. You book in the night, like do this in a way that you're still in a container, a safe container so that if that Molly gets in your system and all of a sudden You're on the train, you want chems now, right? That there is, there are controls in place. Now again, that doesn't have to be the rest of your life, but at first that's what I suggest in terms of if you're gonna do it, take a risk, but make it a calculated risk and make sure you're safe.

Yeah. And not going that far, it could be even alcohol. It could be that one, one too many cups of, of whatever alcohol you're drinking, it might start to make you feel more prone to, okay, let's just cross this line and just go move on to what comes now.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Well, good for you for not only breaking away from that, taking the time to understand it, and now making it a conversation on the global stage. And so speaking of stage, by the way, are you really 40?

I'm 41. Ah!

Oh my God. And a half. I'm going to, if you're watching, I'm going to share, um, Julio's Instagram page. This one, I wanna share this one in particular. Um, so as you can see, he has beautiful poses and pictures and all types of fun video, all sorts of fun, uh, photos. Uh, 41. Can you believe that? 41. Um, but it says on here you're an Italian— I'm sorry, Italian delegate for the Mr. Gay World. So what does Mr. Gay World entail? Like, what do you do there?

Um, it started off as a beauty pageant, but it always had a depth to it in the sense that The jury that decides who to crown Mr. Gay, um, either it's a Mr. Gay World competition or a Mr. Gay Europe or any national competition in reality of Mr. Gay, um, tends to, to, to look for someone capable of representing the community, not just gay men, but generally the LGBTQIA+ community. Um, and in some countries, it's, it's taken very seriously. Like for example, Mr. Great Britain, uh, the winner went to Parliament to discuss, uh, the approval of new ideas for new laws, you know. So it is really something that can become meaningful rather than just being, you know, a beauty pageant and the election of someone. Yeah.

Right.

So even if you're, you might be the most good looking, but if you are empty of things to say or you have something to say, but you don't know how to communicate that, because you don't, you don't have property or language or stuff. They, they will tend to look at someone else that maybe is the better combination of these 2 things.

Yeah.

Uh, because then for 1 year you'd be traveling around and going to, on stages, on pride parades or national TV shows, um, you know, interviews with journalists just to, in regards to whatever is the topic of the issue in that specific nation, if you are in your country. But if you are Mr. Gay World and you're going to other countries, you should know also about the situations that those other countries are facing, what's happening in the world. So it's really, there is a, a section of the competition, in fact, that is a written test. It's like school.

Oh.

Where we, yeah, they wanna see how much we know of, first of all, geography. You know, you need to travel, you need to know where, where, oh, where, where is that I'm going? Is it south?

Is it north? Right.

And then you also need to know a little bit of political situations in regards to LGBTQIA+ rights around the world and where we have issues, where we are doing fine, where we need to put the stress on and maybe just come up with some campaigning or, you know, supporting to other countries that are less fortunate than ours. And that's really what Mr. Gay is about.

Mm-hmm.

Now, if you talk about Mr. Gay Italy, I can open a separate discussion because unfortunately my country is still seen as a beauty pageant and that's it. And they don't understand. They don't understand how much more it could be. But yeah, anywhere else.

Hey, but you, you won the beauty pageant.

Yeah, true. But I'm hoping now, listen, the thing is this, it was a big risk if I wanted to consider just the competition itself and say, I just want to run for Mr. Gay World and I just want to win it. Um, probably I shouldn't have picked, uh, chemsex as topic that I'm bringing there, uh, because it might be a bit controversial, you know?

Yeah.

People don't like, people don't like to talk about it and they might look at me in a weird way. Like, is this guy really a good choice in case? But I don't really care. And I'll tell you why. Even if I don't win this thing, the moment that I go there and there is this press conference, or I have the chance to talk openly about this, I'm already achieving my goal, which is using that using that platform to talk loudly, make some noise about chemsex. That's really all.

That's really all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, I just find it so fascinating cuz this is like, this is a worldwide epidemic that's burning down the community and we don't wanna talk about it. Like, what is happening?

Exactly. For the fact that for, for, for the vast majority, uh, probably of us, it's still a, a fun time and they don't see it as a problem, maybe because again, in their lives, they're not going through any major drama or issue and they are very much connected to people and automatically they don't lose themselves on that.

Yeah.

So there is this, this, this difference between people that actually then, because their life is not, uh, there's something, there's something to fix in their life and therefore they fall into the addiction and those ones that their life are fine and nothing is wrong and they're just having a good time and they're pretty much in control of it.

Yeah.

So this is something that we need to understand rather than just point fingers and thinking it like something that is going to eat you up alive anyway. In recovery, I would, I would put the stress more on understanding what it is in your life that is not going the way you will want to, rather than just thinking that the mere abstinence from the drugs use is going to keep you away from the trouble.

That's right.

You need to be, you need to be investigating really what's wrong with your life and focus and work on that. It could be human connections, meaningful human connections that you're lacking of. I feel alone here in London and I'm trying to put the stress and focus on knowing, getting to know new people for meaningful connections and feel more a part of a community that is really healthy rather than just the clubbing crowd, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're, you're exactly right. Like we, so many of us think just quitting the substance solves it all, you know, and it doesn't. It, quitting the substance is just, it, the, when the smoke clears, right, you still have all the shit left that got you there in the first place.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

Whatever social stress you're going through, It will stay there. So I would say that that's the work everyone should do, like to investigate what's wrong in our lives.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Giulio, I really enjoyed this conversation. What do you think I missed today? What did I not touch on that you kind of wish I had of, if anything?

I think that, I mean, all the things that I want to talk about, we touched them. And I'm happy that we didn't put too much stress on the actual pageantry because, again, my goal here is to use my experience and actually turn my experience and myself into a message of hope for people.

Yeah.

That it is possible to pick up your life and actually bring it back to how I felt before that. Because I remember myself being here on the, behind me, there's a bed, uh, lying on this bed crying and thinking the life was never going to go back to what it was. Then my perception and everything was gray. Everything was tasteless without, you know, didn't feel much anymore. And I thought, okay, this is now permanent. I was wrong. It is possible to pick it up. It is possible to go back to a life that is in colors.

Mm-hmm.

Gradually, of course, it's not, uh, again, cold turkey. It's not that. It's, it's not a switch. It's, uh, it's patience. It's love for yourself. It's focusing on things that really matter, like human connections, hobbies, passions, anything really that is a healthy stimulant to your brain. That is good because the dopamine, the dopamine need is going to stay there for a while. So we need to be clever and find alternatives to that.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, in a more controlled manner without bombarding our brain.

Yeah, that's great. I love it. I love it. I hope, I hope you are really listening to this and exactly that, especially this last part is, listen, it's all temporary. Everything in life is temporary anyway. But when we, when we catastrophize and exaggerate and we, you know, it's so dull in the first part of quitting, right? Like life is dull. A sunset is blah. You know, everything is Blah, blah, blah, and you're irritable and all that kind of stuff. And then there's something in us that says, oh, this is the rest of my life. I don't want to do this. This is, if this is sober, I don't want to do it. You know, it's like, have some fucking patience. Just calm down, breathe. You know, give your brain a chance to repair itself. Like you said, I mean, 30 days, but it also, it also takes 12 to 24 months to come completely back online. So patience.

And also, not, not be scared of lapsing or relapsing in the process is another aspect that I wish maybe you should put the stress on. And I liked what you said recently on a story that you just posted about the pendulum. It's like gradually going back and forth, but without hating yourself for that, because that's part of the journey. That's part of the recovery journey. And you cannot avoid that. Just, just make peace with this aspect and allow yourself.

That's right.

To heal.

Yeah.

Really.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're talking my language now because I have a, a whole course on, a free course on reframing relapse because I think that's the key to reframe the way that you look at relapse so it doesn't trip you up. It actually elevates you, escalates the process, right? But you can look at it as a pendulum. You can also look at it as a spiral, right? Like you're gonna come back around. You might come back around to use. But you're up, you're, you're farther up along. You have more learning, you have more experience, right? You're, you're, it's, it's a sign when you, if you do use again, it's a sign that you're just one step closer to stopping.

Yeah. And, and this aspect, for example, was stopping my ex-partner from, um, seeking for help because he was convinced that the moment that he would ask for help to, for example, controlling chemsex like I did, they would expect him to switch off. they use from day to night. And that's why it was never starting. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it was, it was, it was never starting. And I told him, no, no, this is not it. They actually, their job is to hold your hand exactly in that moment that you're going to lapse or relapse. They won't judge you. Nobody, no therapist will do that. No therapist that knows what chemsex really is will ever judge you for that.

That's right. That's exactly right. So shout out and plug, by the way, to Controlling Chemsex. I'm going to put their link in the bio. We've had Ignacio on the Podcast. We've had Daniel Gilson on the podcast, Mauricio on the podcast, a lot of people from Controlling Chemsex. So anywhere in the world, if you're listening to this and you want free help, you get 8. Now you might have to have a short waiting list, but you get 8 free, what they call in Europe, keyworking, which is like coaching here, but 8 free sessions with a keyworker to help you. And again, it's controlling. So if you have a goal of abstinence, Abstinence might be in the future, but right now you just, maybe you just need to step down. You need to taper off. I volunteer for them. I'm one of their key workers. I've been there for over 2 years now. But, you know, this is a service that we don't have in the US. And so if you're in the US and you want to take advantage of it, I'll put the link in the show notes. Just go there, get on the— when you're on the waiting list, you're in an email program. So they're actually continually like sending you emails every day. to keep you moving through the process and then you'll get an actual key worker. So, uh, Giulio, you seem to, to really enjoy your experience with Controlling Chemsex. And I'm glad that you've brought it up here because I want people to know more about it.

One of the things that my key worker was saying to me is like, Giulio, you are a grown-up man and you decide where you want me to take you. If you want me to take you to, I want to use once a month, I'll take you there. It's your choice.

Right.

Do you understand? Like, no judgment in there.

No judgment at all. Right, exactly. You are the executive of your own life and you're the executive of your own recovery. You know what's best and we know what's realistic. And if you set realistic goals and you start making those realistic goals, it builds momentum. But if you set this goal of never using again, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Yeah.

Yes. Well, you've got it all figured out, Julio. I'm really proud of you.

Thanks.

Uh, you have lots of knowledge, lots of Experience and knowledge and experience. I mean, the, the two, when they cross over, I mean, you're, you're, uh, you've got it. You're a, a full package. And, um, I really hope that, that they see that at the, in the competition. When is the competition?

I'm flying there on the 23rd, this next Sunday.

Oh, okay.

And it will start on the 24th. It will run the whole week until the 1st of December. And then coronation night is on the 1st of December. Ah.

December 1st. Well, I don't think the podcast, I don't think it'll be, um, aired by then, but if it, whenever it's aired, I'll, um, I'll put the results, uh, in the intro to the podcast that people can listen. But we're pulling for you. I'm pulling for you. Whatever we can do. I don't know what, just sending you all the good vibes. Um, but I think you'll win based on this. Hey, based on these pictures on your Instagram, there's no, you should win. The pageantry part anyway. Uh, but you know, with your experience with the cause, I mean, that's, that's gotta mean something. So I hope that they see that.

Again, for me, my win was already being able to break this, this, the, the, the wall of, of shame and stigma myself and just break through and bring this topic out loud to Italy and here in UK and now there. Uh, that's, that's my victory because, um, We need to talk about it regardless if we are having a good or bad experience. This is something we need to talk about.

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, we need more courageous people that don't feel the stigma, don't feel the shame, and just understands what it is really that's happening.

Yeah. Well, if you win, will you come to the US?

I would love that.

It's world, right?

Yes. Yes. I would love that.

We have a ChemSec summit in April in LA. be nice to have you as a speaker there.

I mean, I'm not in charge. If I manage to become the worldwide recognized face of chemsex recovery and awareness, I will gladly do that. Yay.

Yay. Well, I'm volunteering you for something that I'm not in charge of, but I think that they would definitely have you. So yeah. Well, it was nice. It was, thank you for your time today. It was a really great conversation. Thank you for what you're doing. Really, really, really appreciate it. And I hope that it, it, it just continues to build the dialogue. And I'm really proud of you for what you're doing.

Thank you, Dallas. It was a pleasure for me to be, uh, your guest. And I hope to see you actually in person. If you ever come to London, just let me know, 'cause I would like to meet you.

I'll be in London in March. I'm going to an international ChemSec summit in Antwerp in March, and then I'm coming over to London.

So nice.

Maybe we'll see you then.

Keep in touch then.

Okay. All right. All right, guys. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. Join in the conversation if you'd like. You can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify. Send us a DM, comment on the reels and the, um, and the content that I post on social media. So, all right. Hope you enjoyed it. We'll see you next week.