Ep 2:4 Chemsex Cravings Management with Andrew

Hey y'all, I am so thankful to have you back on the Aftermath Podcast. Season 2 has been such a hit already. Wow, I am, I'm just continually thrilled and I'm shocked at the response this podcast is receiving from all around the globe. I appreciate you for taking time out of your day to support our mission to eradicate crystal meth misuse from the queer male population. Today I welcome back another guest from season 1, My brother from another mother, my colleague, and my friend Andrew Moses. If you listen to season 1, you might remember Andrew from episode 8, where we talked about alternative routes to recovery. Since that episode, Andrew and I have become really close, and we've made it a point to touch base weekly. We share ideas, we listen to one another's struggles, and marvel at the fact that we are literally the only 2 that we know of On the planet doing what we are doing. Andrew and I take a very deep dive in this episode and a very juicy dive today into the topic of cravings management. This is an episode you will want to listen to while you hold a pen and a paper because you're going to want to take notes. We bounce off one another in this episode so nicely because we usually do anyway. We so closely align and I love it. I want you to listen to this episode so that you can stop being scared of and catastrophizing your cravings. They aren't a sign that you are doing something wrong or that you aren't far enough along in the recovery route. Listen, cravings are gifts. Listen to this episode and you'll learn more about what I mean. All right, enjoy. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with Chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, We will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Welcome to season season two, not season season two, and we have another repeat offender today, and one of my favorite people in the. World, Andrew Moses, and he is here to talk with me about a couple things. One is his framework and what he does. If you guys are familiar with Andrew, we are probably the only 2 like us in the world right now. Right now, I think we're going to probably start spawning at some point. But, um, today we're going to talk about cravings as it relates to chemsex and Without further ado, Andrew, could you tell us about yourself as if we don't know you already?

Yes. Thank you for having me on again. This podcast is very— and Dallas are both very meaningful to me. So I am, yes, I'm Andrew. I call myself a recovery coach. I founded a business called Queer Recovery Coaching, where I run programs for gay men basically all over the world who are struggling with crystal and chemsex.

I didn't know you had a name. Yes. Queer recovery coaching.

Yeah, queer recovery coaching. And my framework is called the Queer Recovery Framework. This has just been an exercise that I've sort of developed just to formalize everything, which feels exciting. I feel aligned. I like the word queer. It's a nice word. I feel aligned with the word queer. And so, yeah, and very specific now with the people I'm helping. It's definitely gay queer men struggling with crystal and chemsex. It's my area of specialty and expertise, and I get really good results when I, when I, when I, when I focus on that area specifically. Yes.

So you deal with crystal. Do you help people with other, with other substances like GHB, coke, methadone, all that stuff?

Hmm, yes, definitely. I think the majority, like I'm running a group at the moment that has 8 participants. Everyone is actually a crystal meth. Everyone's a crystal meth. I've done some really good work with cocaine before as well, though, especially.

Okay.

But I do like it when it is connected with chemsex in some way. I find that overall picture to be the most interesting for me and to be really rich. It's like a rich source of, I don't know, there's like a lot of healing possible there and a lot of growth possible there. I myself, my own backstory is definitely less of that world and more of just like daily drug use. I spent many, many years of my life using OxyContin, using crystal meth, but more in like an isolated sitting at home using every day. So I'm very familiar with that. I have definitely supported many people through that. However, the fact that I'm now running groups, I find getting all of these gay queer men together who are all struggling in this way with this relationship between sex and Grindr and hookups and self-worth. And then usually, like I said, like crystal meth, cocaine, methadone a little bit if they're in Europe. So yeah, those probably are the 3 that I work on the most. But crystal meth is— I just, for ease, I call it crystal and chemsex.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I use the word Tina. And by the way, if you're listening and you have bitched at me about using Tina as, you know, as a like cutesy name for a bad drug, On social media, you have to be very careful about the words you use. Crystal gets crystal; it works. But for me, I find when I use crystal like TikTok and some of these other platforms puts puts my reels into like the crystals, you know, like the gems category. And so, and then I just think Tina, you know, if you are a man. a gay man, you know the word Tina. So that's— by the way, if you're listening, that's why I use the word Tina. It's not that I'm trying to make it pretty or fancy or, or pretty it up or whatever, or, or whatever. I'm just using a word that's recognizable to the demographic of person I'm trying to reach.

So yeah, I saw a comment, I saw a comment, um, I've got— I'm following Dallas on YouTube now as well. So I saw a comment and someone saying that exact thing, and then I— your response was exactly what I would have said as well, which is— and yeah, so for me, it was actually you using the word Tina very successfully on TikTok. You have to understand when you're on social media, there's like so many invisible parameters that you don't really know. It's kind of like a dark shadow and you're just trying to work out how to, what you can say and what you can't say. So for me, I have rested on crystal and chemsex and it seems to be totally fine with those 2 words. And so I've just used that now. It's all over. And I just use that as part of my branding. I call it like breaking the cycle of crystal and chemsex. I kind of use those terminology. I think breaking the cycle also has a certain connotation because I feel like everyone that comes to me, and you might say the same thing, it's a cyclical— the feeling of being stuck in the cycle. It's sort of like, oh, maybe I've got a handle on it and then bang, I'm back. So yeah. And then yeah, crystal and chemtech have just been really successful terms for me. I think it's also, if you know, you know. That's right.

That's right. If you know, you know. Right.

And if you don't know, you don't know.

Right. Right. All these— and I get questions constantly, you know, what is Tina? Yep. If you don't know what Tina is, this reel is not for you.

Literally.

And by the way, go Google it.

Yeah, I am. I've just started running Instagram paid advertising. Oh yeah. Literally this week. So it's brand new. And so yeah, obviously you have like a larger outreach and a few comments being like, what's chemsex? And I'm like, just like, I'm like, If you're asking, then it's not for you. Don't worry about it. It's not for you. It doesn't matter.

Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, by the way. I don't want to get— I usually set a topic and then get off topic, but you mentioned that you were— I forgot that you were an isolator in your use. And I'm seeing people more and more come to me since the pandemic who are isolating With, with Tina, with, with crystal, with crystal meth. Um, they'll, you know, they just go lock themselves in a bedroom and stay in there for several days. It's an escape from the world. So I think that could be a whole other topic for a podcast too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually find it to be quite different, to be honest. Um, and like I said, my personal experience is with isolation. Um, however, I find my most productive work to be with people who are actually still in society. Usually professional, hold some sort of professional position. In saying that, there is one guy at the moment who's sort of like in a more isolated pattern, but the rest of them in my group are sort of in the world, professional, holding positions. But I feel like it is quite a different process of helping someone come out of that sort of extreme isolation as opposed to people who already have like quite a few connections. And you're just sort of helping them remake some of their connections and remake some of the way they're engaging in the world. So yeah, I've very intentionally gone after this cohort, sort of called them out and called them to me. And so yeah, I'd happily do a podcast on that about the isolated drug use. It's very different. Often it's polydrug use as well. It doesn't really matter. It's like, it's crystal. Like for me, it was like I literally went from OxyContin to crystal, which They couldn't be more opposites, but they satisfied the same need in me, which was escape, numbing, soothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming back. And, you know, Andrew and I have been, we've tried to meet, we try to meet weekly. I mean, we're both busy, exchange ideas and, you know, try to conquer the world here and try to see what we can do together. Um, there are a few other, you know, I have found a few other people out there kind of doing what we're doing, but just not in the same way. And 2 of us have a different approach. So if you're looking for a recovery coach, you're looking for help or, or whatever, you know, try Andrew, try me, whatever resonates with you. Listen, we want to help as many people as possible and want to help them in the right way. So my approach may not work for you. Andrew's approach may work for you. you. So I want to do whatever I can to get the word out about what you're doing, Andrew. So as we talk about cravings today, weave in your approach, and we want to hear more about QRC.

Yes, I was putting together a logo and I was playing around with QRC.

Yeah, I like it. Um, so I get a lot of questions. I'm sure you do too. From men who, they're, they're panicked, and they'll say, I had cravings today. You know, I, I've quit crystal meth for, I don't know, 30, 60, 90 days, sometimes even, you know, 3 months, 4 months, especially around 3 months, I would say. And I'm having strong cravings. And what does this mean? Am I in trouble? What do I do? I mean, you can see the panic ensuing just in their DMs because they're having a craving. And you can tell, so sometimes a part of these, you can tell the guys sometimes like he really does want to do it, you know what I mean? So he's like playing around with the craving, but he knows he shouldn't do it, you know? Or there's some guys who are just totally lose their shit because they have a craving And they think it's a sign that they're not doing something right or they're not far along, far enough along in their recovery. So I guess I just want to turn the floor over to you and say, what would you say to these guys and what is your take on cravings, chemsex cravings? Hmm.

All right. This is a really, really fun topic and I'm excited to, like, go deep. So I'll just start with, like, maybe some more surface-level impressions and let's sort of go back and forth. I think it's important, first of all, to normalize cravings. Cravings are a part of everyone's life. I still have— I mean, you can crave anything, right? You can crave anything. I think that the experience of being frightened or afraid and then consequently feeling shame around cravings is something I see a lot of. And I think that's what you're describing to me, this idea of feeling shame or feeling like a failure because I'm experiencing cravings. So I'll start with my like highest level fun sort of analogy that I've work with quite frequently, and we can sort of delve deeper into this. But I like to somehow incorporate cravings into people's psyche because they are a reality of recovery and they will be a reality of recovery. And that's not in a way to say that, like, you should be frightened of them, but really we're trying to, like, find a way to incorporate them, see them, but not have them lead to action or lead to circumstances that we don't want to be a part of, right? So the way that I like to introduce this is by the movie Inside Out. Have you seen the movie Inside Out, Dallas?

I have. I have not, but I know what it is.

The concept. So the concept of Inside Out is basically like there's a whole— I'm sure most of your viewers have seen it. It's a really, really great, really, really great movie where it sort of represents, it sort of personifies and makes into a character sort of each of the emotions in this little girl's head. And for me, so there's like anger, sadness, frustration. And then as she grows older, there's like shame and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so for me, it might be interesting for people to incorporate this character of the craving or a craving, incorporate this character into their head, just accept it as part of their psyche. And then also what you can start to do with that is sort of play around with what does it look like and what does it sound like and how does it talk to me, right? So all of a sudden we're incorporating what's called parts work as we start to meet this part of us, right? There's such a temptation, I think, in lots of us drug users to just avoid shun, push away, not look at, right? Emotionally repress. And so I think the process of recovery is really about allowing everything to breathe and talk to me, but not being frightened by it. So yeah, that's my overall impressions of cravings. Cravings have to be incorporated, understood as part of the recovery process, not to be frightened of. And again, just to reframe them entirely, they really are messengers and they have lots to teach us and we can go into that. Yeah, cravings have lots to teach us. They're actually really valuable tools if we can look at them in a productive way that is reframed away from fear.

Okay, love that. So just to recap, normalize cravings. So realize that there— this is a normal part of your recovery journey. This is not a sign of anything deeper than it's a craving.

Right.

And then characterize or personify the craving. What, what is it like? What is its personality? Like you said, like pretend it's one of the characters on Inside Out in your head. Um, and, and understand that, that cravings are messengers. They have something to teach you and show you. What, what really lands with me in that and what you're saying is it's very much like when you're dealing with an emotion. Isn't it? Emotions are normal. Then if you personify an emotion, you can start to deal with it because it's there. You can, you know, look at what color is it, what shape is it, what, what is the nature of it. And emotions are messengers as well. So I wonder if craving— cravings are kind of like an emotion, I guess.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, you picked up exactly what I'm trying to, uh, lay out here. Um, Keeping in mind as well that any part of your, any part of sort of self-development, any part of like any evolution or growth journey really is about trying to become unblended with all the shit that's going on in your head and become, it's like I use the word healthy observer. Many, any sort of therapeutic modality will use that terminology. It'll have a different version of that.

Yeah.

But healthy observer is my terminology. So we're trying to like rise above and be able to look down upon what's going on, right? And observe what's happening without being blended with them. And I think cravings, absolutely. Like, like, if we can incorporate a craving, if let's think about cravings as we think about emotions, um, and I think that's a really powerful way. So again, I'm observing it. You might even think about holding it in your hand and like trying to look at it from all angles. It's like, let me become curious, right? So I think for me, a large part of my recovery, like just approach in general. I think passively people absorb this idea that they need to sort of punish and shame themselves into quitting or into getting better. We can blame partially the program for that, but also there's just an inherent state in a lot of us to be self-critical and self-judgmental and all that kind of stuff. This idea of shaming and punish myself into a better future, it just doesn't work. So if we can introduce some curiosity, some compassion, And some understanding as we start to look at the cravings without instantly going into like a fear response and just being like, okay, why is this present now in my life? What's been going on in my day, in my week that has brought on this craving? Also, you can do like a lot of somatic experiencing through this as well. Like pull out your journal and be like, all right, what's it feeling like in my body? What does my craving feel like in my body? What does the voice sound like in my head? And also, what is it that it actually is seeking out? What am I seeking out with this craving? Like, what am I— and also, what's really interesting as well, which I think we have to dive into deeper as well, is like, what am I anticipating is going to happen when I use? What is this craving? What unmet need does it think is going to be filled by me using?

Right.

So these are all really interesting questions as you get to know your cravings, as you become super familiar with them, Embrace them. So that's very much my approach.

Yeah, I think— and I don't know what you think about this, but it seems like that cravings, just like kind of emotions, can come into 2 parts in terms of sometimes it is like an indication of— I call it, um, you know, one of those Rube Goldberg machines, like the ball rolls and hits this and flips that up, and then the ball, you know, it's kind of like That happens in terms of on your way to using again, or, or otherwise known as relapse, just for better— just so everybody understands what I'm talking about. But a craving could be a part of that in terms of, I saw a man shirtless running down the road, and then I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, and then I thought I would stroll on Grindr, and then, you know, and then they pile up, and then a craving comes. Because it's kind of in the process toward— is that right? And then, and then the other type I think of craving is just randomly. Like, for me— and so this could get into another discussion in terms of what's the difference between a craving and a trigger.

Hmm.

Because like, if I'm in the gym— I use this example all the time on the podcast— if I'm in the gym sometimes and I see my veins popping out, I want to— I'll— I see a needle going in. you know, I want to use, I get a craving for a needle. And so I don't know if that's a trigger or a craving, but it didn't— it's not a part of a Rube Goldberg, you know, it's not a part of a series either. So what do you think about that?

Yes, I love all that. I completely agree that that's sort of, um, the sort of nuanced sort of like granularity of exploring what it looks like if let's say someone comes in, they've experienced a slip-up or a relapse. Um, I agree with you. Is it Rube Goldberg? Rube or Ruth?

Rube. I've looked it up.

I thought it was Ruth too. Yeah. She's a nice Jewish lady, Ruth Goldberg. Right. I totally agree. There's sort of like a pathway that is actually really, really important to assess. And that's what I'm sure you do. And a lot of what I do as I help someone explore, especially after they've used, what were all the things and what was the internal state as well? Most importantly, not what happened externally, but how did the external stimulus affect my internal state? That's the most important.

Yes.

Yeah. I do agree with you in terms of the differences. I call your version a chemical craving. So your version is a chemical craving. It's really just like, and I find this to be, if I'm being honest, to be most prevalent in IV users.

Yeah.

It's just my like anecdotal. And I know you were an IV user. I wasn't. I mean, I did dabble, but never, I wasn't like an ongoing. So I find that, I find chemical cravings, which is really like almost like a reliving of like a dopamine. Yeah, a crazy flood of dopamine. So that's a chemical craving for me. The other versions of cravings— now, when you're talking about cravings versus triggers, this is like, I tend to agree with you. I need to put more thought. I think I need to put actually more philosophical thought into it. But I'm pretty sure that cravings are just on the pathway to usage. It's part of the triggering process. It's almost like a craving is a trigger. Yeah, I guess a craving is a trigger, but a trigger is not a craving.

Well, yeah, you know, I think so. The— back to the IV use, when I have that, when I have that flash, to me it's like a, it's a PTSD-type reaction, which is a trigger, right? You think about somebody, and not to, not to compare myself to a veteran, But to think to someone in a war and they hear a loud noise and it triggers a flashback of a bombing or something. To me, it's kind of the same thing. When I see a vein, it triggers that memory. And my body, after it's been, you know, it's been 7, almost what, 7 and a half? I can't even remember how long it's been now. 7 and a half years for me. My body remembers. exactly what it feels like to put the— to, to put the vein in my— sorry, the needle in my vein. My body reacts in exactly the same way as it did 7 and a half years ago. It remembers. It was imprinted. So maybe that's a— maybe that is a difference in terms of trigger craving in that, in that sense.

Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. No, I think it's interesting as we start to explore a little bit deeper. Like, you know, you mentioned, um, let's say seeing a hot guy on social media, right? So these, what you're describing is like seeing your veins create some sort of physiological response, right? Because PTSD lives in our nervous system, right? It's happening deeper brain level. Well, the same for me, the same thing is happening when you are at home all alone and you see your friends out partying on social media. And all of a sudden, it's like, I'm unworthy. I'm not good enough. No one loves me. I'm going to be alone forever. Most people don't have access to those deeper layers. I really like to help people. That's actually what I've been doing this week with my program. I call it trigger mapping. Basically, it's a process. I created the worksheet just last week. I think it's actually really good. It's basically like—

Nice.

I'm asking people to identify high-level triggers. I call them surface-level external triggers. Like, I was at home alone, or I drove past the place I usually use, or whatever it might be. I had a really good date with someone, but they just ghosted me afterwards, right? So those sort of— and then I have like a long table, which is like really trying to explore some of the deeper layers. Like, how did it initially affect me? What was the narrative I came up with in my head? What was the emotion that came up? What was my initial sort of coping reaction? Like, how did I want to cope with it? What was the deeper unmet need, right? So basically taking that surface level. So in a way, The difference— I'm okay to differentiate between the chemical craving, especially that sort of IV use, high dopamine rush. But I think everything has like a physiological PTSD response, rejection, whatever, whatever it might be that brings up in you. Like, I know for me, seeing— I'm still working through, like, you know, seeing, seeing someone really attractive at the gym, let's say. Yeah. On a deep level brings up feelings of rejection for me. Yeah, straight away. Straight away. And then the feeling of rejection leads to me feeling shitty and low self-worth, and then it leads to me wanting to be validated. So that's the cycle, right? And so, yes, I think it's murkier, but I think basically our triggers trigger cravings, let's say. And then if you're not conscious enough or aware enough, then the craving will lead to usage, but they don't have to. they just don't have to. You are very powerful. And with enough, with enough work on remaining conscious and present in your life, and with a clear image and picture of what it actually means to be using, I think you can prevent usage in that way. So yeah, interesting. As you're talking, I'm sort of like almost combining the two again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, could you— okay, so you were getting into something there. Could you talk to me like I'm a client? and coach me through— I, I tell you that I'm, I'm having a craving, like, or I was at the gym and I got a craving, right? Um, what would you tell me a step-by-step process would be to just for, for the listeners to benefit from?

Yeah, I've actually really been enjoying, um, I call it like experiential inquiry, um, experiential learning, right? So yeah, actually, actually allowing people to land back in and re-experience it while they're with me.

Yeah.

So if I need to, I might get them to like slow down, close their eyes down, and do a little bit of breathwork with me. Just a little bit of breathing just to sort of settle the system down. And then I'll be like, all right, close your eyes now, and I want you to take me through in real time. So use present language. Don't use like, I went to the gym. Use, I am in the gym.

Yeah.

I see this guy, right? And what ends up happening is— and I'll sort of talk them through that process and help them realize how the external, the thing that happened externally is actually impacting their internal state. Usually I'll start with some sort of somatic inquiry. I'll be like, all right, where do you feel this? What's it feeling inside of you? And then straight away, there'll be some sort of narrative that will arise from it. Like, oh, I'm not good enough, or he's better looking than I am, or I would never get a guy like that, or I'm a piece of shit. Or, you know, it gets, this is what the shame voice, this is what queer people— Yeah, yeah. Queer people, what are you going to do with them? So yeah, that's how I'll do the inquiry. But keeping in mind, it's always from a place of compassion and curiosity. That's my main thing because there's such a temptation to fall into shame and guilt and shame and judgment and criticism. So that's my main avenue of inquiry. And then from there, we're actually getting to much deeper layers. And for me, that's why this kind of inquiry is really important. important in the work that I do because, and I approach these a little differently because once we get to the deeper layers, it really tells us what are the core narratives or core beliefs that are actually causing my drug use in the first place. And spoiler alert, it's usually to do with like low self-worth, not being good enough, shame. You know what it's like. It's sort of the same thing over and over again.

Right.

It's feeling lonely, feeling like I'm unlovable. It's feeling like I'm fundamentally flawed, all that kind of stuff. It's sort of always the same thing. And so, yeah. And so that highlights to me not only because we can't protect against that because that's just a part, but it highlights to me that there is some deeper healing that needs to be done. And that's then what the next part of the program is. It's the healing part because that's how you create sustainable long-term change. So yeah, but I actually really love sort of, I'll call it experiential in real time. I think your listeners could do it as well if they wanted to. I would pull out a journal. And instead of writing the journal in past tense, I would write it in present tense. Be like, I'm in the gym. I see this guy. My body now feels XYZ.

That's good.

All of a sudden I'm saying to myself XYZ. And that is a much more powerful way than narrativizing. Because what ends up happening is, and this is the cohort, I don't know what your cohort, my cohort's like, they're all very intelligent, very capable, very clever. And they're very good at intellectualizing. And they almost are too clever for their own good. So as we're trying to exit the intellectualizing, right, intellectualizing is like you now thinking from in past tense about what happened. Experiential is much more like in the moment going through it as you're experiencing and you might re-experience as well. And that's okay. It's okay to re-experience a little bit. But yeah, that's, that's how I would approach it.

Yeah. So that's going back to what you said earlier about, you called it the healthy observer. Right. I, I call it the compassionate observer. Same thing, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, you also said that cravings were messengers. So what you just described was the ability to take a craving, unpack it, and unpeel it. And underneath that, the craving was giving you a message. The craving was showing you and pointing you to why you want to use in the first place, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Like, this is— and this is the gift. This is the gift of drug— of substance abuse, um, writ large. It's like, it's an incredible growth opportunity if you are willing to take it, right? It's highlighting that there are parts of you that are unhealed and that you're finding really hard to be with. It's most likely going to be something around your shame, Something around your low self-worth, not feeling good enough, and you're constantly just trying to escape it. You're constantly— and you don't realize that because it actually is quite a few deep layers, quite a few layers down of like emotional self-awareness required that before you know that. Um, but this is the growth opportunity in drug use. Um, and it's actually a gift because I wouldn't be the same person I am now. I wouldn't know this about myself or be where I am without that period of drug use. Um, Exactly. So cravings are messengers. Usage events, as we both call— I think we both call them usage events.

Relapses, using episodes, uses.

Yeah, they're also messengers. They're all gifts, right? So if you can park your shame and your guilt and your punishment and your criticism, if you can park that and instead introduce some sort of level of compassionate curiosity, then they can be really powerful. So yeah, absolutely, you're picking up Exactly the right thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it comes down to something I, I always say too, and said, if you all haven't listened to the finale of season 1, um, please go back and listen to that too. But that chemsex recovery is about perception, not perfection, right? It's shifting your perception That all of this is happening for you. Like you said, like, people— like, some of these guys are set in such misery saying, why did this happen to me? Why am I addicted? Why isn't this person addicted? Well, that person, if you look at somebody who's maybe not been through a chemsex addiction or addiction at all, they're— maybe they're living life like on autopilot or constantly triggered. Or they're, they're living from their trauma, right? And nothing is activating them. Nothing is stimulating them. This is a gift for you. It's hard to, it's hard to think that way. And, and we've been trained because of the, you know, the mainstream recovery industry doesn't feel like it, we need to think that, that we're allowed to think that way. But this is actually a gift for you to clear out all that shit under there so that you can live a better life. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's been that way for both of us. I know in our own personal lives, we're not talking from some sort of— we're talking from personal experience.

Right.

And I've watched people go through incredible transformations before my eyes that wouldn't have been possible without this hardship. It's very commonly known in any sort of spiritual development, anything that like, it's through hardship and challenge that we grow. There's no other way to go. If everything's soft and cushy, nothing happens. And I'm sure you run into people like that. And it's just like, I've got nothing in common with you. I don't even know how to connect with you because you can tell straight away someone's been through shit in their life and they've had to grow and had to evolve through it and had to come to realizations and make hard decisions and all that kind of stuff and recommit to themselves and take responsibility and all that kind of stuff. That's all what life is about. And I think this drug use journey for all of you, for anyone listening, for anyone I've ever looked after is is, is that it's that opportunity. Um, it's that opportunity. And without it, who knows where we would be? So I completely agree.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so back to this idea that cravings are gifts and messengers, right? One question that I get too is people ask me a lot, do you still get cravings? And they expect me to say no. Right. And let's, you know, let's put aside the fact that I talk about chemsex all day, every day, so I'm bound to have something going on in my head, right, about it. But even after all this time, there are— I will admit, there have been days when I think about it and I crave, and I'm thinking, you know what, it really does sound nice to step out of my life for 3 days and go watch porn and jack off. You know, it's like, that really does sound kind of nice right now. But what that, that, that craving to do that though, and it really is a craving, like it, like I feel my body kind of jump to it, right? Like it's like it's waiting for me to say, okay boys, go do it, you know? Um, what that is is a messenger for me to say you need a break.

Yeah.

Like you're burning yourself out. You need a break. You are not taking care of you. And so for me, I even now, so no, yeah, even after 7 and a half years, 8 years, I get cravings too. But that doesn't mean that I panic about it. It doesn't. It just means that I say, what are you showing me? What are you telling me? What's going on here? Because there's something that wants to go back to this old Coping mechanism because I'm burning myself the fuck out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Such such good insight to share. Like basically there is some sort of it's highlighting that there's some sort of unmet need.

Yep.

To put it in simple language, there is an unmet need and it is your job to assess what the unmet need is. And just like you said, like yeah, you identified it perfectly. It's like obviously that some part of you is craving. What was it? Yes. So I did my group this week and we were talking about. some of the deeper reasons why people crave chemsex. And one of them was said, like a relief of responsibility.

Yeah.

Responsibility. So that's, that's, that's the version I think that you're talking about. It's like this off switch, this off switch. People use it as like a way to just like check out from the complexity of life. And so yeah, like you said, one level deeper, or if we can become that healthy observer and instead of being blended and terrified by this craving and being like, instead I'm like watching it and being like, all right, well, why are you here? What are you trying to tell me? And like you said, it's perfectly rational that you're checking out because you're overwhelmed. There's too much going on. You're probably not processing your emotions properly. You're probably not giving yourself enough space to be present and all that kind of stuff. So then you can proactively try and meet those needs in the myriad of healthy ways that we all know.

That's right.

And if you don't know them, then you can learn them. We've both had to learn them from scratch. So yeah, I think that's really important. I had something else to to say, but it'll come back to me. But yeah, I think that's really great. Like the idea of being a messenger, not to be afraid of it, try and understand what it's trying to on a deeper level. Oh, this is what I was going to say. I did my— the exercise I did with them last week, I called reassociation. So basically, I think this is the other important piece of the puzzle. So basically, it was basically a way to identify and assess some of the subconscious automatic, passive, passively absorbed associations we have with crystal and chemsex in terms of like the very first, like when I have the craving, what does the craving think that the crystal and chemsex is going to give it? Because it usually doesn't actually give it what it thinks it's going to give it, but there's an automatic association. And usually because crystal produces such high levels of dopamine, it's usually with that initial rush, the initial high, the initial emotional numbing. If it's to do with sex, it might be like dreaming of some sort of incredible connected sex, intimate sex. And so this process of reassociation for me, which was a pretty edgy exercise, I actually got them to dredge. I got them to first assess their automatic associations. And then I got them to what I called fill in the picture and really dredge up the genuine experiences. I'm like, okay, last 3 to 5 times using, how did it actually play out? Right?

Yeah.

What is the reality of using like for me and how has it impacted my life? And so as we're trying to formulate this picture, and it was pretty edgy, like a lot of them, I knew that it was going to trigger them lightly. I said it at the beginning of the— my— when I do a worksheet and I make a video and I accompany them as they do the worksheet. So I made sure to do a lot of like downregulation breathing with them, but also encountering some light triggering and building resilience in the face of triggering. I've got nothing against that. I am big—

Yeah.

I'm a big believer in building— you can't avoid triggers. You're actually trying to build resilience in the face of trigger. So I did that in a controlled way and basically got them to dredge up the reality of using and create a new picture. So like for you, for example, you were talking about like, so part of you wants to like switch the hell off and spend 3 days watching porn, right? And that's like the sort of romanticized fantasy of using. Then there's the reality of what it actually means in your life, which is like a complete disaster in every single way. Yeah, you've developed that really strong, and I've had to do the same thing. Every single person that successfully recovers, you develop this really strong association with crystal and chemsex, the reality of it, what it actually means in your life, and combine that with higher levels of self-awareness and this healthy observer. And that to me is the picture of how you prevent using. It's it's sort of as simple as that. Not saying it's simple, but it's as simple as that in my eyes.

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, so the craving. thinks crystal meth will meet the unmet need.

Yes.

And so when we figure out what the unmet need is, like for me, back to me, you know, so I— my unmet need was an escape, right? So in what, what I realized too is, you know, because I, I was, I was working too hard, what I realized is my typical way of balancing work was my, my walks in the woods when I go and talk to trees, right? And I, I have not been doing that. You know, I hadn't been doing that lately, or if I did, it was rushed, or, you know, my mind was distracted with work. So I was not getting my escape, my cleansing, my purging that I was doing every day. I wasn't doing that. And so this craving was a gift to say, hey, we need, you know, we need to relieve some of this pressure. And so that was, of course, what came up. Um, but it gave me a good kind of centering exercise to say, what's missing here? And I realized, like, you're not going on your walks anymore. Your trees miss you. Go, go hug a fucking tree. Go hug a tree, not your dick, you know. And so, yeah, it was a good little wake-up call for me. Thank you for that.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, almost like neglecting some of your core needs. And also keep in mind that needs are on many different levels, like spiritual, emotional, physical. Both of us are very spiritual as well. We have lots of spiritual needs. They almost come above everything else. I wanted to be vulnerable as well since you were sharing about cravings and stuff. Let me share as well.

Okay.

I don't experience drug cravings. I mean, I use THC sort of medicinally, therapeutically. So I've had sort of like a battle with that. But I think at the moment for me, and I'm sure lots of your listeners will resonate with these cravings to go on Grindr and be validated by boys.

Yeah, yeah.

Not even to have sex, just to be validated. I think mine's as simple as— and so me and been playing around, but also like feeling lots of like rejection, like really complicated relationship, as I'm sure lots of us have with like sniffies and Grindr. And so I really resonate. Like, I don't— I'm luckily not in a place where I don't go on Grindr and seek out and go use meth. I'm just not there anymore. I'm not even close to it. However, it still does— it can occupy and drain a lot of my energy. It can make me feel really shitty about myself. It can ruin my self-esteem. It can make me feel a lot of rejection. And what I was noticing was that, like, when I am craving— and I'm calling it a craving— to go on Grindr and speak to boys, I really am seeking out validation because I feel— I don't feel good about myself at that time. So again, that's the messenger. So for me, for, for, for, because I'm recently out of a breakup, so I'm currently in that kind of phase. And so, and so for a while, I was just sort of acting on it and just spending a lot of time on Grindr, speaking to boys, the hot ones. I'm like, oh my God, he likes me. It must be, you know, you know that pattern. But then eventually I was kind of like, this is weird. This is not, it feels out of alignment for me. I mean, I'm still, this is like a very active battle for me. This is active work. I'm speaking to my therapist. I mean, this is my active work, really. Yeah.

Okay.

And, but yeah, it was a messenger. It was a messenger that I'm seeking out validation externally. I'm looking for external input to say that you are worthy, you are attractive, your body is good. And, but it was hollow. It was hollow. And so anytime now that I, like it happened yesterday, anytime that I'm now realizing that I'm sort of craving going online and engaging with boys, I'm realizing that it actually is a need, deep need for validation. And what I'm working through is, well, let's park that for a moment. What does it look like to either validate myself, right? So I'll spend a bit of time with myself, either in the mirror or I'll sit outside and just like put my hands on myself and just be like, I accept you, I love you. Or speak to someone that I actually really care about, like my mom or my sister or like a close friend that can actually be genuinely validating and genuinely connecting. So it's just another example of how it's a messy Messenger. Um, and these cravings exist in every area of life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, and not only a messenger, but you're getting the answers, a lot of the answers here. Because I always say, guys who think they're addicted to the sex when they use crystal meth, and they're really not— now, you may have You may have gotten into it because of a hookup or whatever, and you may go to chemsex parties. But my guess is, and you, you chime in, of course, what you think, but most of the time what you're addicted to is the feeling of escaping or the feeling of being validated or the feeling of getting a break from my emotions, or like you said, the relief from responsibility. That's what you're addicted to. And that's what your body is. You're coping with these things in that way. So if you can figure out what your craving's telling you, what that what you what the unmet need is, then you've got the answer here. Now, of course, it's not easy to solve, but you've got a big fucking clue on what you're really doing, on why you are in this cycle in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, right? Completely, absolutely, 100%. I couldn't agree more. I'm just I'm just writing down here. I'm Yeah. So yes. So in the group yesterday, so I've always had like, because I've just been working with people for so long, like when you ask, when you're sort of like do this deeper work and like help people assess, like my question is like, what are you actually craving when you're desiring to do crystal and chemsex? Like what are you actually on a deep level? Or what is the unmet need that you're trying to fill with crystal and chemsex? And the answer is almost always the same. So I got, I did it in the group yesterday. I did the worksheet and then we all shared. And I didn't, I decided not to share with them my usual answers first and just have them give me their answers. And it aligned exactly. It's simple. And you came up with one already. It is seeking out connection, right? The flip side of this is escaping feelings of loneliness. This is like probably, there's probably no one that's more common. Then there's the one that I was talking about, like being validated with the flip side being feeling shitty about myself, low self-esteem, low self-worth. worth. Like, yeah. The next one, which was another interesting one we haven't spoken about, which is like accessing a level of freedom and power was the way they put it.

Yeah.

Basically escaping. For me, the flip side of that is like, you know, the usual feelings of deep insecurity, deep self-deprecation, deep self-criticism. Basically, it basically allows people to access a state they can't access otherwise because they haven't done the work. or they haven't, they're not at that place in their development to be actually, to be able to show up confidently and self-assuredly in their everyday life. So it gives them like a glimmer. We sort of discussed it as like a shortcut. It's kind of like a shortcut. It has a lot of downside, a lot of downside. But regardless, these are the reasons without judgment. These are the reasons. And then the last one was relief of responsibility.

Yeah.

Which was basically like a brushing aside of the complexities of life, the emotional complexities of life. Entering, like they described it, like the simplicity of using the one-track-mindedness. It's like, like you said, like it's like 3 days of just like watching porn and jerking off. It feels appealing when shit's going down in your life. Honestly, those 1, 2, 3, those 4 things with the flip side, which is what they kind of what they represent for me are the things that I see repeated over and over again.

Yeah.

There might be others, but those are 90% of case, what people are seeking out. And as you said, then your job now is to go and heal those parts of you or address those parts of you or get to know those parts of you or find ways or find groups or find people that can help you explore them. That's what your path in recovery is now. Yeah.

Yeah. Now, sometimes I do find, you know, there's nothing— there's never an all or nothing, but sometimes I do find so Sexually, a guy wants to be degraded, right? So there's, there's a lot of this in the chemsex world, and I see a lot of guys who, they want to be pissed on, stomped on, slapped around, you know, all that stuff, um, to remind them just how of the piece of shit they are, and it turns them on, right? So it's a trauma response to whatever the beliefs are they have about themselves, for the most part, right? So what I find is in life, when maybe they're at work and they get a bad review, or, you know, something along those lines, and they feel like they're a piece of shit, all of a sudden they have a craving to use because it's a shortcut to go, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna get this guy to fucking beat the shit out of me and piss on me and treat me like a human toilet because that's what I am, right? So that is, I think— and you could say you're addicted to the sex, but it's really you're playing out your trauma, your beliefs about yourself. And, um, and so that to me is another layer of craving and another layer of how do we get out of that. And so for one thing that I do with with some of my clients is let's take a step out of it in terms of you can still get degraded sober, right?

Hmm.

I mean, in the Dom/Sub kind of world, you can still get degraded and still feel that way. Now, it doesn't fix everything. It doesn't fix your trauma. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't fix everything and heal stuff, but it does get you out of the chemsex world and get a means to an end. It gets that unmet need met that we're talking about. And then we can talk, then we can get the substance out of you, then we can take it to the next level, which is probably a psychotherapist, you know, above my, above my pay grade.

Yeah.

But there is some of that too that I've seen.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting piece. I don't have anyone— I've had people over, over my history, absolutely, that have come to me that are sort of like, Yeah, engaging chemsex in sort of like a very submissive way, wanting to be degraded in those kind of ways. Just to give like a framework for it, just like more of like a therapeutic, psychotherapeutic framework. Basically, lots of us do a number of things with our shame. 2 of the major ones is we either overcompensate for it or we surrender to it.

Right.

So the version that we're talking about around seeking validation is a way to overcompensate So like, I'm feeling shitty about myself, so I'm going to now get 10 guys to tell me how attractive I am. That's an overcompensation. Surrender is the other version that you're talking about, right? It's like a giving into and like, now let me prove to myself how shitty I am, right? Often, as we said, above our pay grade, but often off the back of sexual trauma. Almost actually definitely off the back of sexual trauma.

Yes.

A very complicated relationship with sex, maybe introduced to sex really early. That's usually the picture that I see. And as you said, at some point, that's gonna have to be addressed by a therapist or psychotherapist or psychologist. However, I do agree that it is, again, it's the playing out of some, it's the playing out of some sort of deeper narrative. And if you're maybe your very first job, so that you can go to a therapist with like a clear framing, is to really understand what it is that's driving you, what are the deep narratives that are driving you towards the drug use. Because most people, most therapists, psychotherapists, psychologists that you go to, if you're actively using drugs, will have a really hard time with you. Me and Dallas can handle you. A lot of people, if they don't have experience with drugs, they just don't know how to handle it. And my mentor is like a clinical psychologist. So I talk to him a lot about this. So if you can stabilize yourself and really understand some of the deeper narratives, and as you said, take a little step back, Um, and then get you to get yourself into a place where you're resourced enough to then go and get that kind of further help. That's really beneficial. But absolutely, I think that's— it's the over-conversation versus the surrender.

Yes, that's exactly right. Right.

Yeah.

And that's, and that's what I see me doing a lot is I'm preparing you for therapy. Yeah. Like, right. I'm, I'm getting you out of the cycle. I'm giving you the underlying issues. I'm giving you— I'm pointing you in the right direction. And I say, now go, go deep with a therapist. I'm not a therapist, and I'm not even going to go, you know, there. But I am going to prime you and pump you and get you away from the substance, like you said, enough so that you can be therapized, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, yeah, um, I think it's, um, I think there's like— it's like stage 1 in a long, long journey. Yeah, the both of us are offering. For some people, it might be enough. For some people, but, but honestly, like both of us, I mean, I'm still, I'm so active on my healing and growth. I mean, it's just accelerated. And we've got about the same amount of time away from crystal, like about 7 years-ish.

Yeah.

Basically, when I was 30, I'm now 37. And I mean, I'm accelerating, like, you know, I want to go and do, I go and do things all the time. I'm I'm in therapy, I go to retreats, I go do ayahuasca, I go, you know, sit outside and take THC and explore myself, like whatever. I journal, I breathwork, everything. So, it's just the start. So, but what we're doing is like trying to stabilize you to a level where like you're now not like seeking out drug use in like an automatic subconscious, just like by rote way. You actually got some like emotional self-awareness. You understand what are the deeper patterns? What are the deeper narratives and core beliefs? And now it's your job to go on this healing journey and choose. There's so many people in the world doing incredible stuff. I mean, it's the beauty. Social media is obviously like a gift and a curse. But the beauty about social media is that you can access these incredible people doing incredible things. And yeah, so I visualize myself in the same way. It's sort of like step one in the journey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like the pregame. Yeah, so one thing I wanted to touch on too is you mentioned— you called it experiential— what did you call it? Experiential rundown.

Yeah.

So one thing that, that we do, what I do with the clients is— so we will do that and even practice what hasn't happened. Like, so one of the practices that we do in cravings management is you get the random text Hey, what's up? You know, you know what they— you know what's up, right? Because you know the number, you know what's happening, you know what they want. Um, but you know, you're going about your day, everything seems fine, and you get the random text or you get the random dick pic. Um, and so kind of practicing what you would do, like, like you're saying, be in it. Be in it. But even so Reliving it is perfect, revising it too, but anticipating it. And so what I find is practicing what to do next actually trains and rewrites the subconscious and it's beginning to build a new pathway, new neural pathway. So when it does happen, because that will happen, you will already be practiced. You will already know what to do. There isn't a decision. It'll become more organic because you've practiced it several times. When I get the text, this is what I do right now. Go ahead and feel where, where does it come up in your body? Yeah, all that stuff. But also behaviorally, what do you do? I delete the number. I delete it. I block it. I do this. I do that. And then I say a mantra and then I bring up my— maybe you bring up your notes that has all the benefits of why you're not using, you know, whatever we come up with that works for you. But practicing that in your mind several times, and then it becomes like muscle memory. It's like, it's like remembering your future, as Dr. Joe Dispenza says, like remembering your future. You're remembering it happening. It hasn't happened yet. So practicing it that way too, I think, helps.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's actually really important to like exit, sort of like Just trying to like put the intellectual mind down for a moment. And like you said, trying to experience and actually re-experience, either if it's you, we're looking back, re-experience, or I like what you're doing as well, where it's like basically for me, I wrote down here like this idea of familiarity for me goes along with like anticipation.

Hmm.

And I've always found in my work that the more we can anticipate moments of triggering or activation, the better we do. It's when we encounter things that we don't anticipate that usually something happens. And then that's fine as well. Now it's in the bank and now it's part of our anticipation matrix. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's not the end of the world. But yeah, there was an old client of mine who I loved that did an excellent, you know, those ones that like you have dear in your heart.

Yeah.

And he was in San Francisco and yeah, he would say, he was like, recovery really just feels like a process of just encountering every single type of trigger until you've encountered everything. And it's all in the bank, and then you can progress forward. And I kind of like, in a rudimentary way, kind of agreed with it. Like, that's why for me, slip up and relapse is part of the process.

Yes.

Because at some point, there's gonna be something you didn't anticipate. It happens, but now that's in the bank. And then eventually, every— the bank is full. And we can now move forward in an empowered way. I think I'm I completely agree with you having contingency plans as well. I also wanted to— it just highlighted, it just sort of reminded me, I think it's slightly different but kind of similar, this idea of setting intentions as well. I was guiding someone through, one of the group participants. This is such a— I'm sure this is a very familiar story. So let me share sort of how we approached it. He actually dropped it in the group chat, which I really appreciated. It was like Thursday. He lives in London. And he's like, you know, I've got this group of gay guys that I do sports class with and they all want to go out to this crazy party and everyone's buying tickets to it. And I'm like really conflicted. I'm like, should I go? Should I not go? I know it's going to be alcohol and then probably MDMA. And then for me, that's usually the pattern to go and, you know, do more stuff. And so what I was asking him to do, this is in anticipation of, was to really set some very clear intentions of how he wants the night to go. What does he want to get out of the night?

Yeah.

Because if you just allow yourself to be like wishy-washy, carried along, which a lot of us are like that, right? We let our— first of all, we approach, we arrive with like incredible amounts of anxiety, social anxiety, right? And then you just allow yourself to be like floated along and some hot guy offers you a drug, so you do it or however it works. That's just going to lead to the same thing, right? The pattern is pretty well established. He's been using for 10 years in this sort of pattern. So I'm like, we have to like make a genuine break. And for me, that's about intentionality, always about intentionality. So I asked him, I prompted him, I'm like, write to the group and tell us, what are you anticipating? What, so what are your intentions? What do you actually want to get out of the night? And what are the things you think that could get in the way of you sticking to your intentions? Right. And then there was one other layer of questioning, just to make sure that he set himself up. And I spoke to him just this morning. And it went really well. Because he said he set up his intentions for the night. He's like, you know what, I just want to have a good good time with my friends. I want to have a laugh. I just want to be myself. And so when this crossroads came in the night, he was at pre-drinks. And so it was like half the group was going off to this crazy party and half the group was going to some sort of drag bar. He was having a good time with the people going to the drag bar. So he went with them to the drag bar, had one drink, and then went home and was really proud of himself. But it was only because he had spent time beforehand thinking about what he actually wanted, as opposed to arriving at pre-drinks anxious. So you have like 10 drinks. And then the one hot guy is going to this crazy party. So you go with him, or you go with them. And then before you know it, you're spending 24 hours on a bender. So yeah, just the intentionality for me as well plays a really big role.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. So like I say to my guys, willpower is finite. Like you might have— like for me, I have a lot of willpower in the morning. Like I get up at 4:30. I, I hit my peak about 9 AM, you know, and then the rest of the day is downhill. But, but what drives— what keeps me driving forward is that I've set up an infrastructure of my day.

Hmm.

Like, I know where I'm supposed to be. I already know what I'm going to eat because I've already packed it. I know where I'm supposed to go right now. Earlier I mentioned that I hadn't been doing my walks. So I stopped scheduling them all of a sudden because I got too busy, right? So I've started to schedule them now. But in a case like you're saying, you can't rely on willpower sometimes in those, in those cases. But if you have an infrastructure, a plan in place, yes, it really, really matters. And you, you get scared because you say, oh, I can't go out anymore with my friends. You know, you, you kind of limit yourself to say, I'm never having fun anymore, I'm just going to have to resort to this vanilla-ass life. And that's not true. But you know what, it's going to take some work. It's going to take some work to say, I'm having 2 drinks tonight, I'm gonna have water in between drinks, this is what time I'm ending, I want my coach to check up on me, I want my mom to check up on me, I'm bringing my girlfriend home with me after. You know, set it up so that you can't fail so that there's no choice to use. Yeah, you don't have a choice, so you're not relying on your willpower, right? And so if you do get a craving, so the fuck what? You can't do anything about it, you know? I mean, that's, that's what I, I completely agree with what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote a little thing here like, uh, structure is bigger than willpower. Yeah, that's the formulation.

Yeah.

I agree. I think willpower, it's interesting. Yeah, I find the willpower self-control thing, I feel like, and this is just from speaking to so many people that are trying to like, you know, when people come to you and they're like sort of doing their own recovery, let's say, or they don't even know that they're in recovery, but they're kind of just trying to, they're trying to like limit their drug use. All they have is sort of like passively absorbed stuff from like 12-step. And it's sort of like this combination of like willpower, self-control, and then like Punishment and shame. It's like that's the matrix of recovery, and it's so dysfunctional and toxic that like the very first step in my in my in my framework program is to like break that and like completely reformulate what recovery means, and talk about what are the what what are the actual important values in recovery, and also just redefining success and progress as well. So yeah, I find I find I find yeah, I completely agree with you. Willpower and self control. control are very limited. I don't, I don't not do drugs because I have strong willpower. It's because I have like correct framing, correct structures. I have understanding. I have deep compassion for myself. I understand myself on a deep level. Like all those kinds of things are much more important. The other thing I wanted to say as well, which gets people tripped up just as you were talking, this, I like to describe recovery as like a process of like stepping stones.

Mm-hmm.

Nothing is forever. So what Dallas is saying, you don't have to, you're not going to be that way forever. You're not going to have to like control yourself to that extent forever. But people, people have this like forever idea mentality with recovery. It's really just a stepping stone. And I've been working with this. I wanted to actually like make a video about this. Just came to me this morning of like sort of like the usual steps in recovery. And we'll call it crystal, crystal and chemsex recovery. And I think the first step really is like, exerting a high level of control. It's almost like a regrouping phase. And that regrouping phase doesn't last forever. It just lasts for as long as it needs to until you can regroup sufficiently to now reenter. You sort of regrouped, you do the work on yourself, and now you can sort of reenter in a much more powerful, empowered place with strong boundaries. So yeah, it's not forever, but for the early part, you really do have to exert that kind of level of control, in my opinion.

Yeah.

You have to know you want to plan your weekends, You want to plan your nights out. You want to plan your social engagements. You want to plan your self-reflective exercises. You want to plan your emotional processing exercises. Like, this is what it looks like, but it's not that way forever. It might be that way for the first 2, 3 months. And then after that, you start to feel, and you know what, you can feel it internally. You feel what it feels like to build resilience and strength. And you know when you're ready to now introduce yourself back. So yeah, I just wanted to introduce the stepping stones concept as well.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes, we we tend to catastrophize, right? I'll never be on Grindr again. You know, blah wah wah wah. You know, and it's temporary. Okay, like I I tell my guys deactivate social media because I blame Instagram for relapses using episodes. Whatever the fuck we call them. I blame Instagram as much as I do Grindr. It's just this. It's the same, right? Um, whatever you do in the beginning, because of the nature of this particular— the nuance of the substance, and because it's connected to your phone, and because it's connected to your libido, you have to be infantilized in the beginning.

Mm-hmm.

You have to be— you have to be watched. You have to share your location. Yes, you have to. Forget about your privacy, but this is all temporary. And not everyone across the board, but most of the time you do. You just have to. Um, and it's like, what, I have to share my location with my mom for the rest of my life? No, you don't. But right now you do. Everything in life is temporary, just like you say. It's a stepping stone.

Mm-hmm.

The thing is, like, if you work with Andrew or you work with me, You have to think about this. Instead of going to rehab or drug treatment, you're having a coach. So what would they do in drug treatment? Number one, they take your phone away.

Hmm.

And if you're good enough for a certain amount of time, you get your phone back, but you get it back for 2 hours, right? I mean, it's— that's the way it's set up, but it's set up that way for a reason. So if you don't want to take your ass to treatment, then you're going to have to do it on your own. And you're going to have to structure your life in a way that makes you do it because you don't have someone forcing you.

Amen. Yeah, I completely agree. To put it that bluntly, I actually really like— it's like what we're offering is for you to remain in your life, engaging with everyone or doing all of that. So you're not removing yourself, putting yourself in rehab, which is what most people would tell you to go and do. So yeah, as a result, you're taking much more self-responsibility. It's like self-leadership. Like, you're, you're actively saying that I'm ready to take— like, I'm in a position where I'm happy to take initiative and do some things that are going to be challenging for me in service of my longer-term recovery goals, as opposed to surrendering and putting yourself in rehab for 30 days, which has its advantages but has its major disadvantages. I find— I don't know what you find, but most people— I would say majority. I don't know what the numbers are, but like, let's say 70% of people I work with have been through rounds of other recovery modes that have been partially successful, partially unsuccessful, especially when it has to do with rehab. Many of them are like, I come and use the day I get out. You know what I mean? And for me, and this is why I actually really appreciate how I operate my program and how I run my program, which is very much in your life. Like it's real life integration. Like, it's it's it's one thing to go away for thirty days and have your food prepared for you and be not working and have a yoga instructor and have a group of people ready to connect with you every single morning. That's one thing. That's beautiful. That's great. But it's also living your everyday life that is probably more important to learn how to do. So yeah, I've got a guy currently in the program who's been through rehabs and rehabs and rehabs and just can't integrate. So I'm like, well, this this is the right thing for you because what you need to learn is to how to impact. Life is triggering. Life is emotional and triggering and overwhelming and stressful, and you can't control most of it. And so it's how do I, in the face of that, still remain on the path that is aligned for me? That's that's that's the secret, and that's why I think what we are offering is a powerful. It's a whole different thing. I think it's it's more like an IOP, I suppose, like an intensive outpatient is the way that I'm sort of imagining it. But with a very specific focus of like gay queer men struggling with like crystal and chem sex. So yeah, I agree with you. Like you're making the choice to do this instead of removing yourself from your life. As a result, there's going to be some difficult choices to be made, but it's all in service of your higher good. So it's actually, you should be celebrating these choices. Like that's the, when someone can get into that headspace, then I know they're really, really, they're really on the path because it's like, oh no, this is not a sacrifice. This is, What I want in my life, and this is what's required for me to get there. And it's like a very empowered place to be coming from.

Yeah. Yes, empowerment. That's what this is all about, right?

Yeah.

Just like earlier when you're talking about your client who went— who went to go out. If you— if you set a goal to go out with your friends and you put everything in place and it goes successful, How proud does that make you? And how much more trust do you have in yourself? And how empowered do you feel now? I can make decisions on my own. I can do this on my own. I can do this, right? And I think sometimes when you go to a rehab, you're every— you're being pulled like a puppet around. You're not doing anything on your own. Right. Um, and so there, there's a lot of power in that. Now, you might go out and you may fall off the wagon and end up at the party, but that's a good— that's a gift. It's a learning experience. Where did you miss it, right? Where, where are the holes in the plan, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I said, I said, I said as much to him. There was actually another layer that I want to share, which I think is really interesting as well. He's anonymous, so I can just, I can share details. There was so many things to say. All right. So first I'll start with that. It was an interesting layer. It was an interesting layer for him, which was when he was going out, the initial, initially going out, he's got a, he has a partner, quite a new partner. And so he said his usual pattern would be to obfuscate and lie to his partner about where he's going just in case the partner gets jealous because he's like, you know, he's with a group of gay men who all do a HIIT class together or whatever. Right. So he's like, that would usually set the tone for the night. It's like, it's already secretive. It's already shame-filled. And he said that instead he actually broke that pattern. I was so proud of him. Like I got shivers. He's like, you know, I fought that instinct to like kind of obfuscate and be like, oh, Oh, I'm just going out with her. And he's like, he actually was honest, completely honest about where he was going. The partner was fully supportive and be like, have a fucking great time. It meant that he showed up in full pride, like genuinely fully himself. He was able to show up more into pulling tape. That's the word. He was able to actually show up authentically as himself. He said that he even got to share, he even got to share like with his friends. He showed his partner like it was open all of a sudden. All of a sudden he was like, This is my partner. Look, isn't he cute? All of a sudden, the feeling was good. So as the night wore on and as the option to either go down the sort of darker pathway towards sort of like, you know, an underground party, lots of drug use, potential chills as they call them in the UK, or towards like something a bit brighter, which is like continuing to laugh with his friends and going to a drag show, that was the pathway. So I thought that was another interesting layer, which is like, Starts all the way back there, right? So that's, that's what this exploration can help people do is like see all of those layers. That's how complicated the story really is.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's actually more complicated. You could even go deeper. There's more layers than that.

Right.

You know what I mean? And that nuance and that kind of detail is really, really important. Um, the other thing I wanted to just comment on was your expression, the self-trust. Um, like part of the, part of my framework, like step 3 is absolutely relationship to self. I think that there's no doubt this has been the first thing that I realized about recovery ever since starting this work. And I mean, actually starting my own recovery and then starting this work of supporting people all around the world is that it really is a sort of ultimately a dysfunctional or toxic relationship with oneself that drives drug use at its core.

Yeah.

And so I have sort of like my 5 foundations of self that I find to be— we have to build very intentionally. Self-worth, obviously. Self-trust, obviously. As you said, self-trust gets ruined in all of us drug users. Self-respect is another one, because you can say that you respect yourself, but for as long as you are punishing your body in that way and not aligning with your values and your interests and your boundaries, then your self-respect is not high. And then self-acceptance and self-compassion. So those are the 5 for me that are just based on my experience. Like actively building these five things.

I see.

Anyone that is successful in recovery has to build on those five things. Yeah. So yeah, making a very intentional effort of doing that.

Nice. Love that. I love that a lot.

Yes.

Well, we have diverted from cravings, but I think it's all related.

It's been so good. It's been a great conversation.

Yeah. It's all interwoven. We could probably talk and talk and talk because. I have more I wanted to bring up, but we'll have to bring it up because what I'm seeing too is, uh, partners. You know, this idea of one partner using, one not.

Yeah.

These partners out here are so supportive, like, we're open, so go do your thing. And then when they get— they start using crystal meth, I see these partners who are still so supportive, they're enabling. So there's no consequence. Because I can go binge and come home and get hot food, hot bed, and a hot man, and nothing— where's the consequence, right? Why do I want to stop? But this partner is supporting them in the name of, I love you and I will support you. So anyway, that's a whole other— there's a whole other topic for us too.

I've seen exactly the same thing, um, and to reframe it as enabling, I think, is really, really powerful.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, I, I, the partner thing is a whole other story that I've seen. I've seen good stuff happen. I've seen really, really hard things happen when it comes to partners. If someone comes to me and they're in like a using couple, I have like a little bit of red flags for me. My, my ears go up. Now I need to assess even deeper your commitment to this process because this is going to be even harder. Yeah, so yeah, definitely.

But the whole story in and of itself, yeah, I have a couple that I help. I feel out of my realm a lot because for one thing, I don't know much about relationships, period, right? But okay, Andrew, what did I miss today? What did I— what should I have asked you? What did I— what would you like to say that I didn't— that we didn't cover?

I actually thought it was really good. I actually thought it was really, really good. I really enjoyed talking to you. I've been doing lots of work. I've like taken a little, like over this period, I've just like done a lot of work on like my actual framework, like what I actually believe about things and how I actually want to affect change. And so it'd be nice to discuss that with you today and be able to share it with your listeners. This is really powerful stuff that I've learned through really hard-fought years myself and supporting, you know, hundreds of gay men all around the world. So I'm happy to— Yeah, it's Really, really happy to be able to share this, and I'll plug myself if you'll allow me to as well.

Of course, please do.

So you can find me on TikTok. I am Andrew Moses underscore coach. I am on Instagram. I'm back on Instagram. Yeah, same name, Andrew Moses underscore coach. Basically, the way that I operate, I do my work at the moment is through group programs.

Okay.

So I collect together a group of gay queer men from. all over the world, UK, US, and Australia. And we go through the process together. So we'll meet weekly for group sessions and we'll have one-on-one sessions. And it's a 12-week transformation program. It's my queer recovery coaching program. And so, yeah, if you want to come and join me, you want to inquire, you can come to my Instagram or my TikTok. I'm offering free recovery roadmap sessions.

Nice.

For people to speak to me and see, basically, I want to learn about you. understand you, see what you're about, understand your blockages and see if I can actually support you. And we go from there. So yeah, that's, that's, that's on offer. So you can head to either of my social medias, link in bio, and follow the process there.

Nice. I love the recovery roadmap sessions. I love that. I need to change mine. As you're talking, I'm like, No, that's really nice.

Yeah. Because I had it, I had it, it was like, it used to be called, this is like behind the scenes, but like discovery calls.

And I'm like, oh yeah, that's what I call mine.

It doesn't mean anything, but I'm like, I could all, this could be a branding opportunity because I can actually describe what the session is, you know? So behind the scenes.

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're doing great stuff. You always have. You were my inspiration from the very beginning. Um, and I went out there to try to find Yeah, who else is doing this? No one but Andrew.

Like you said, I mean, you're meeting people because of the podcast, I suppose. Um, so you probably meet people. I guess we're the only ones like openly on social media doing it, but there's other people in other spaces.

I'm having Stu somebody, I forgot his last name, sorry. Um, Stu on. Stu is a psychotherapist. You know him?

I think I've heard about him. Yeah.

He, he does the same thing, but kind of— he's more of a therapist than he is a coach.

Okay.

Um, but, you know, so there are a lot of chemsex therapists.

Yes.

Out there, right? Psychosexual therapists. So there are people like that. But as far as a coach, because, you know, like I said, and I've said before, I got a lot of shit from gay people, from other gay men, about doing You know, well, meth heads will never pay. You know, I mean, you know, I got a lot of that stuff from former users, from former meth users. Well, why would you want to? Tweakers aren't going to be able to be coached. You know, because you know the CMA people like to call each other tweakers for some reason.

Don't get me started about CMA. It's not doing well. Thank God. But you know, it also highlights how they feel about themselves. Right? It actually highlights, it highlights what kind of self-perception it actually drives forward, which is like, I'm a piece of shit. I couldn't pay. I'm unreliable. It's like, no, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to show you. I'm trying to show you how powerful the person you are.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, good for you. Good for you for, um, really blazing the pathway here for, what is the word? You're a trailblazer, a trailblazer in this area.

Thank you.

That's so sweet. Yeah.

Um, it's really, As I've, as I've put together this really, really, really robust program, this group program, imagining me 7 years ago, I spoke a lot about this. Imagine if this existed 7 years ago for me.

Yeah.

Literally condensed down 7 years of my own hard-won wisdom, healing, and growth transformation into 12 weeks.

Wow.

And imagine if that had been available to me. And then I'm like, imagine how much you would have fucking paid to fucking join that program. It's literally priceless. There is no price you could possibly put on it.

That's right.

There's no price that would— if you were to like, I'm going to take all that away from you, how much would I have to pay you? I'd be like, yeah, there's no amount of money you can pay me. That's right. So it's just incredibly valuable. And it's nice to feel like I'm like creating something in a space where people are really underserved and ill-served, because if you have to go to CMA, God forbid.

Oh, wow. I always enjoy talking with you, Andrew. Thank you.

It was a pleasure. Thank you so much, Dallas. This podcast is great. What you're doing here is amazing, and it feels very, um, symbiotic with all of our work. Feels symbiotic. Yeah, I'm excited.

It really does just do this, right?

Yeah.

All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this discussion. If you want to join in, I didn't say everything at the beginning that I'd usually say, but give us a rating, blah, Blah blah blah. Save, you know, share it on your social media. But also, if you want to join in the discussion, you can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify. You can send a text. There's there's a send a text button. Just remember, if you send a text in and ask a question, I can't answer it because it doesn't give me your phone number for some reason. So, but it's a fan mail text. But if you want to join in discussion, please do. Please do. Especially on YouTube. Um, that's a great place to start a thread and get us talking. So, all right, with that being said, I will see you all next week.