EP 2:40 The Sociology of Chemsex with Chris

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think that's, I think we have to understand that, you know, if you're listening, it's, it really is a mental health. To me, it comes down to a lot of mental health issues as far as like, I need validation because I feel this about myself, or I have trauma around being abandoned. Right. And a lot of that keeps you going back to it because it helps you bypass feeling and figuring out those hard things. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas Bragg. Thanks for being here. I just wanted to say in November, we hit another new record of downloads. Very excited for that. We continue to get larger and larger and more impact and more impact. And it's because of you and your currency of downloading, liking, sharing, rating, reviewing. Please continue to do that. I do appreciate it. And also, again, if you have ideas for topics, don't hesitate to DM me. You know where to find me. I'm on all the social platforms. Um, or, and, um, yeah, all right, go to my website, whatever. Uh, you could also comment on Spotify. You can comment on YouTube if you want to, um, have a suggestion or give me some feedback. Don't forget, there is a supplemental study guide that comes with every episode. The link will be in the show notes. You can also get that emailed to you every week if you go to drdallasbragg.com, go to blog and subscribe. And each week you'll get the newsletter, the newsletter that I send out on Mondays. That's also a study guide on some topic. And then on Thursdays, you'll get a study guide for the podcast. So feel free to subscribe there. I'd love to have you in the family. Well, you guys, today I'm extremely excited to introduce a scholar in the US who is talking about chemsex and who's advancing this dialogue and doing some good work around this subject. And as you know, it's hard to find in the US right now. I mean, a lot— most of my guests who are researching and advocating for this sub— for this area are in Europe or Australia or somewhere like that. And so to find someone in the US who's leading the charge And really getting this dialogue started and going, um, and actually backing it up with, with research. It's, it's a, it's a treasure for me to find. And, uh, Chris and I met on, um, on Instagram, right? Yeah, Instagram. Um, but Chris has a, um, a YouTube channel called The Queer Sociologist. Um, there's a really, really good presentation there, um, that is comprehensive. And, um, it would, you would really benefit, I think, uh, from watching it. whether you are trying to understand your own chemsex use or trying to understand what's happening in the world and in the US, this would be something good for you to watch and you could benefit from. So without further ado, I'm going to let Chris Connor introduce him— Dr. Connor introduce himself to us as we get going here.

So I do not even ask my students to call me doctor, so just call me Chris.

Okay.

But yes, I am the Stephen O'Murray Faculty in Residence at Michigan State University. And I research a wide variety of topics from criminology, deviance, LGBT issues, EDM subcultures, conspiracy theories, and pretty much I just follow the data where it takes me. I was hesitant to actually talk about this topic, but I teach a course called Drugs and Society, and I noticed that there were a variety of documentaries coming out by Vice and different news organizations. And I said, well, if they're doing it, I've got to do it because, you know, I have a research background and this topic is something that has impacted me and my family in a wide variety of ways. And so I'm really excited to be doing this. So thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Question before we get started. So when you are presenting this information to the normies out there, I mean, does— is there a lot of like surprise interest in it? Is there some disbelief? What kind of reactions do you get?

So my students, um, this is about week 9 in my course. And what I try to do with this is I'm trying to get them to see how the way society is structured has an impact and how, um, and basically humanize the people who are impacted by this particular topic. And for the most part, I think nearly all of them are really, um, enlightened. They come away and they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't know this was a thing.

Mm-hmm.

I've had a lot of queer students choose this as their final project because they're suddenly interested. And so, yeah.

Good. Great. Yeah, I love that. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get started with— I took a look again at your lecture and again, it's just, it's so validating for me to see it in research and presented like this. But one thing that you talk about is that there are 2 vulnerable clusters, right? The 15 to 24 and the 40+. And I've been saying this just from my own anecdotal observations, and mostly everything I say on the podcast is anecdotal, no research behind it besides my own personal experience. But you, you, you present it from the, from the research that these are 2 vulnerable clusters. Do you, can you explain to us? Why that is?

That's the hard part, right? Um, so my personal opinion on this, and again, um, this is informed by years of research on LGBT issues, um, and a lot of, a lot of my work in that area I never published because I was worried about harming the people out there. and causing more damage. But to get to your question, sorry.

Yeah.

For young folk, they're just coming of age. They're just figuring out who they are. They maybe are homeless. Maybe their family has cut them off. And drugs become an avenue to soothe something that they're missing and to kind of Uh, cut loose, right? Like there's a lot of, um, if you, if you read the literature on this, if you talk to people who've been affected by this, it helps them deal with their, uh, anxieties around sex. Like we live in a society that doesn't like to talk about sex and they sure as hell don't like to talk about gay sex.

Right, right.

The pattern for older folk is somewhat similar. Um, and there's, I think, feelings, uh, that, that especially when he turned 40, uh, that you are somehow, you know, not valuable as a person, that you are, um, no longer going to be sexually, sexually desirable.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, a lot of my friends who are now in their 50s say, yeah, their 40s, they felt like they were invisible.

Yep.

And, you know, uh, I can definitely relate to that as someone who is, you know, part of that age bracket. I also think, um, if you look at when meth became something that was popular in the, the queer community, it was in basically when my generation was in their 20s, right? Like in the the '90s and the 2000s era is when it basically became introduced through the club scene. And so it kind of makes sense that that group would be there. Um, and I think you and I talked about how there is this kind of interesting pattern that can happen where older gay men then recruit younger gay men.

Yeah.

Um, with, you know, because they have capital, they have access to drugs, uh, and, and you know, they can entice young folk, uh, in that way. Um, and there's actually a really good documentary that it's hard to find, but if you can watch it, it's called Party Boy.

Mm-hmm.

And it's about how, um, within the Black gay community, um, there are a lot of predatory white men who use that particular drug, um, to get what they want. out of attractive young Black men. And it's a powerful documentary. I know the producer was trying to get it released, but there were some issues.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that— I call it, for me, you know, my age group, I feel like our shelf life has expired in the gay community, right? And I know, go ahead.

Oh, I was just gonna say, I, I, you know, I'm 44 now, but I am destined to make this the best decade of my life. And so far, um, this year has been like one of the best. So it's so, so no one should feel that way is like kind of what I'm saying. Um, there is a whole sexual revolution going on right now and, uh, I'm here for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, for me coming out late in life, I felt like I had to make up for lost time, right? And then I had all these insecurities that I didn't work on because I was closeted, you know, and I didn't know myself. So when I found Tina, you know, when I found this magical powder that would bring all the boys, right? I mean, I probably Probably demonstrated some predatory behavior in terms of, you know, like, it's like, hey, little boy, here's some candy, kind of, you know? I mean, that's what happens when you feel like you can't get attention otherwise. You're on the, especially on these apps that make it all a marketplace anyway, right? And you're always trying to vie for somebody's attention. And then you try and try and try and you can't until you say, until you put a capital T in your profile and all of a sudden all these squares start lighting up. Right. Yeah.

You mentioned something about time and that, um, made me think about this interview I did once with, uh, a guy who talked about how he liked, uh, Tina because it allowed him to go for excess periods of time.

Mm-hmm.

And so that was like one way he was using the drug was to kind of catch up and account for all this lost time.

Yeah.

Um, and, you know, then it became a habit and then it became something that kind of consumed his life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. That's it. Right. Um, it does feel like that you, you have to, you, you've seen the gay culture and you've seen these, these young guys, what they're doing, and you're like, I gotta catch up with that. I've lost all these years being straight. Right. Or being straight-laced. At least, but just let you cut loose. But you mentioned anxieties around sex. And it's amazing to me how whatever generation you're in right now in the LGBT community, all of us have this— what we're searching and we're trying to get to this idea of what sex should be based on what the pornography industry has given us that it should be, right? And if you look at— we've mentioned it several times on this podcast— you look at the, the men who created some of the biggest studios had major internalized homophobia and created this like straight acting, like scene of men. And this is what it was supposed— this is good sex. This is what you're striving for. Everybody has to be rock hard the whole time. Everybody has to come. You know, and it's like, and now it's like we have this, this prescription. We got to start out with a blowjob, then you got to eat the ass, and then you got to fuck this way, and then you got to come, and then it's over, right? It's like, that's the prescription that's been created for us.

You're not wrong. What I will say to that is some of the best sex that I've ever had, especially recently, has not followed that script. Right. And, and like, we shouldn't be afraid of experimenting, right? But, um, yeah, there's a whole lot of anxiety that we, you know, first we grow up in a society where it's not okay to be gay, right? Or like, there's a, there's a stigma attached to it. Um, and then we come out and we have to then navigate this space where, um, There's a sexual marketplace. There's a researcher, Green is the last name, but he talks about the sexual field, right? And that circuit parties, bars, Grindr are a sexual field where members create these hierarchies that are based on a particular ideal standard, which is actually rooted in heteronormative culture. Right? So this Adonis figure is like, like, um, gay men can be sometimes more, uh, uh, uh, more masculine than the most masculine straight guy I've ever met, right? Like, we kind of put on this, this front in a way. Um, and it— then when you like peel back the layers on that, like especially within the porn industry, you find out like, oh, the reason why they're rock hard all the time is because they're taking an injection drug and—

Yeah.

their penis. And, um, there's other chemicals that they're using. And, um, so it is, it is presenting a funhouse mirror image of, um, you know, sex and gay life and all that. And, um, again, one thing I want to make clear as a sociologist, you know, um, I like to distinguish between, um, addiction and use as 2 different things, right? Because there's so much of this topic, this conversation is stigmatized and it's assumed that if you use once, you're always going to use or that you're addicted. And it is a hell of an addictive drug, but it doesn't always work like that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Can you tell, talk, can you talk a little bit about that? Because we're so hung up on this word addict or addiction, right? That we, I think we lose, we get hung up on that so much that we, we, we lose track of trying, it diverts and dilutes our way of understanding why we're doing it. If I'm a user, if I'm listening to this, right? Because if, if I, if I accept the fact that it's an addiction or I am an addict, Sometimes that gets in the way of actually finding out what is driving me to keep using.

Um, so, so one of the things that I like to do, um, in class is I like to say, so what is it? What is a hard drug and what is a soft drug? And why do we use phallic terminology to describe drugs? And when you actually get into the weeds on like drugs, you suddenly realize, oh wait, these 2 things are like not necessarily— it's subjective, right?

Hmm.

And it's the same way with addiction and use. And basically what you have to do is you have to figure out what is it ultimately that you're interested in. And I think in the addiction community or the people that are working in that field, they define it as A behavior that interrupts other aspects of your life, right? Versus the casual user or someone who just uses in a different sense where— but all that said, I think at the heart of all this is drugs are— any kind of behavior, right? Like, like drug use specifically, it is a tool that we are using because we do not have a great mental health, uh, services, uh, you know, as part of our society.

Yeah.

And it's used to, uh, treat some kind of underlying thing in one person, someone's life. So anxiety around sex, uh, right, you know, hetero living in a heteronormative society, all of these things, you know, one route to treat that, right, is drugs.

Yeah.

Or, and, and, you know, I've seen people who have behavioral issues that are, I would classify them in the addict category, which are, you know, almost as devastating, if not equally devastating. Uh, to their lives as, you know, someone who's, uh, uh, addicted to some kind of, uh, substance.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think that's, I think we have to understand that, you know, if you're listening, it's, it, it, it really is a mental health, to me, it comes down to a lot of mental health issues as far as like, I, I need validation because I feel this about myself, or I have trauma around being abandoned. Right. And a lot of that keeps you going back. to it because it helps you bypass feeling and figuring out those hard things. So speaking of root causes, you list some root causes: heteronormativity, minority stress, which you just said, rejection and marginalization, right? When we're rejected from family, communities, right? When we're rejected from the broader LGBTQ community itself. You know, that was, that was my whole thing, right? That's, this is, this is the problem here too, isn't it? I, I think, I, I think socially, culturally, the, the, the problem lies too in our own community first.

So there's, I've been meditating like, uh, for a whole week on like what we were gonna talk about and, um, you know, and I had some like real life experiences that drove home the point that, yeah, I, I, Should do this, this show. Um, so first off, hurt people hurt people. Um, and what I mean by that is sometimes that nasty queen at the bar is someone who's struggling or has their own issue, right?

Yes.

And then they make it your issue because they're really trying to work out their own shit. And by the way, everything I'm talking about, I'm not a master of. I'm just a human being trying to make sense of the world around me.

Yeah.

The other thing is we are really bad at making space for others in certain areas. I'm in the Midwest. The Midwest is a tough nut to crack if you aren't in Chicago or some other major cities. And one thing I've noticed about Midwesterners is sometimes, and it's not like they're being mean about it necessarily, but they just don't know. They don't recognize the space that they take up and the space that they could give for other people, new people to come in. And that's an important thing, right? There's a— I'm not going to name the organization, but there is an organization that is a community group centered around sports. And if you miss their enrollment period, right, you are screwed. And why I'm bringing that up is like, if you are somebody who's struggling, needs to find community, needs to find friendship, needs to find connection, I don't care what the fucking deadline is. Like, just let me in, let me participate, let me be involved somehow.

That's right.

And we need more spaces where you can just drop in and be part of what's going on. And that's important not only for young folk, it's important for older folk. It's important for people trying to find dates. It's important for people trying to find friends who are new to the area. We could do a much better job, but it's hard.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll say it, Stonewall. Because I, because I, I had, I mean, I've had, oh my God, I don't even want to, I don't want to derail us on my own personal experiences. But yeah, just this, there was the experience I had with that. Everybody said, if you want to make new friends, go there. If you want to be, you know, part of a community, go there. And I tried. I tried to go there early on and it was very much a junior high girl kind of experience for me. And, you know, again, Midwest might be hard. The South is also a place of making space for others is not what we're known for here in this area. And so it's interesting. It's interesting to try to make your own space. Anyway, this is, you know, these all point to reasons, right? And I posted something on social media about Um, I think you post— you, you commented on it and I was like, oh, inclusivity, you know, something about to the gay culture of, you know, when you exclude men from your group, you're encouraging chemsex use basically, you know.

Totally. And that's, that's what spurred me to message you and reach out because I read through those comments and it was so clear to me people did not understand.

Oh my God.

And it was like, I didn't even have to look at the profile to figure out that this was some white, young, attractive, blonde-haired guy.

Yep.

What I found funny was, I don't know if you watched, but I, I have been raised by drag queens. And so I kind of dished it back to him and he just didn't know what the hell, like he was trying to come back, but he just couldn't. It was fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My drag friends were very proud of me.

So yeah, I mean, I get things like, girl, something, you know, like something like, they just need to, you don't know, you know, they need to just stand up for themselves, or I don't know, whatever it is that they come back. I'm like, you're missing, you're totally missing this, you know. And actually, it's interesting, these comments that come back demonstrate the exact point I'm making with the post.

Yeah, yeah, it is. Um, you know, I, I'm also someone— this is like my 7th or 8th move now across the country. And so like, I— this is something I struggle with a lot, like trying moving into a new area and setting up, basically setting up shop like, you know, Mary Poppins or whatever. And you get to, you really get to experience this kind of outsider thing, right? Because a lot of people, even in cities, have lived there, you know, a decade or more. Maybe they even went to high school there, right? So like their gay experiences, they go to the bar and all of their, you know, gay friends or maybe friends that they didn't know were gay are hanging out at the bar. And, um, so they don't necessarily have to like try to, to get in there and, and do the thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's hard, like the older you get, the harder it is to put yourself out there. And, and again, to bring us back to the topic, like that can be a triggering event for people. That's right. And, you know, and, and, and it makes them, um, it, it turns them into, or rather it, They look for other outlets. So there's actually a theory in sociology that understands this. And basically, I'll just boil it down so I don't nerd out too much. Essentially, if you aren't getting your needs met socially or economically or in all the different ways, you will create an alternative structure.

Mm-hmm.

to, uh, the world, right? Uh, it's called strain theory, right?

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna get to that. I was gonna get to that. I'm glad you bring it up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but this is called innovative deviance, and the whole idea is you create a different structure out, like, in order to get the goal of what your group is, right? So, uh, within the party employee culture, right, they're creating their own subculture That makes them feel normal, that gives them human connection, that gets them sex, that gets them all of the things that they think are happening elsewhere, right? Rightfully or wrongfully so. And that's, that's how you end up with this. So.

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I mean, you know, so, you know, I've had a I had an older client who forced himself, was so proud of himself, forced himself to get up, get ready, and go out to a function. Pushed himself in, you know, was nervous as, as hell. And, and again, a lot of this is how you see the world. I get it. But he goes in there and just groups of guys are standing around. They turn around and look at him. Up and down and turn back around, right? And even to the point where he attempted to talk to someone and they literally turned back to who they were, you know, to their group. He was fucking devastated. Devastated. He was like, why would I do this when I can get on Grindr, say I party, a, a cool guy comes over, we have everything already in common, we know the deal, it's so much easier, and then we have sex all night. Why would I try to do this? Why would I try to meet people? You know, and is that innovative deviance?

Yeah, totally. And also, let's not forget that it is expensive to go out, especially right now in this economy. But like, and I'm also someone that suffers from, I don't know if it's a lot or a little or what, but some body dysphoria and Just so, like, I relate to that. I'm also now older, whatever the hell that is. And, um, even for me, like, putting myself out there is a struggle. And one of the things that's happened since COVID is the whole culture of bars has changed such that people go out in groups now.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas in my 20s, you went out by yourself and that's how you made friends and you like, You know, that you got your group. And so a lot of things have changed over COVID. And there's still, I think, a recovery from that, from social isolation, feeling alone. And it instilled, I think, a lot of distrust in people.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's another aspect of this, of how people don't make space for others. And then they, again, they find this wonderful community of, uh, of people who are like, yeah, come on, let's party, let's have fun.

Right, exactly, exactly.

I get it.

Me too, me too. I lived it. Um, yeah, okay, so on your list, body image and internalized homophobia. was also offered, you know, feeling not desirable, too fat, too effeminate, right?

Or too straight, right? Like, that's been the critique that I often get because, um, I know, right? Like, look, um, it actually happened to me the other day and I was like, clearly aren't looking at my ear and you clearly— anyway, but, um, there's a great documentary about this called I Don't Even Sound Straight. And it's about, um, how some of us just don't have that gay voice, right?

Like, yeah, yeah.

And, um, anyway, it's a good— it's a good documentary. Highly recommend. Um, because there's a lot of people in my orbit who they're like, yeah, you know, I can't even— I can't sound like a flaming queen. And, uh, you know, so—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I used to have this whole thing practiced. Like when I would meet somebody on an app, right? I would say, okay, well, I'm not totally queenie, but I'm not straight acting. I'm somewhere, like I would try to establish where I was on this spectrum, right? And I would say, but if you talk to me, you're gonna know I'm gay. All right. Like I got, I get called ma'am all the time when I call customer service. Like I, I get it, right? But it's like, why do I, why? Do I have to explain that, right? Like, it's— I understand you're a man, you want a man, so you're turned on by a man. Like, I get that all the time too, but it's like we have just set up all these rules and barriers that make it so difficult to fit in to our own community. It's no wonder we're being— having innovative deviation or deviance, right? And creating this subculture.

So there's a CDC report that got scrubbed, um, from the— or I'm sorry, Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Agency report about gays and lesbians and drug use specifically.

Yeah.

And one of the things in that report is about how mental health disparities within, uh, gay communities are way higher than straight communities. I think it was somewhere something like 2 to 4 times, uh, more likely to have some kind of mental health issue. Um, so, and that a lot of that is depression. A lot of that is anxiety, a lot of, you know, ADHD. Um, all of these things, right, contribute to, um, this, this, again, this feeling of not fitting in, wanting, and, and it's why, uh, you know, the PMP culture can be so, um, what I want to say, attractive, right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Then, you know, there's a whole other thing too, the studies about dopamine and, you know, all that stuff too. But I think what we're talking about here is very important. And so also delayed development. So missing formative sexual experiences in youth, you know, so like, like a lot of us have to— we're, we're not— it's not accepted for us to have gay sex. So we sneak around, we go to the restrooms, or we meet in the cars, or we go to the cruising forest. Right. And having that as our arousal template to me me sets us up to fit right into the PNP culture as well.

Totally. Um, you know, yes, I'm not gonna— I guess I don't have anything else to add to that, right?

Like, yeah.

Um, yeah, I would. Well, actually, I would say, you know, straight folk do have, you know, quote unquote lovers' lanes. They do have their own spaces, but as some of my newer research looks at, police target those queer spaces and often go after them. So yeah, there's a lot there.

Well, yeah, if you look right now at all the busts being done in New York City and some of these cities, of these cruising areas where I still think sniffies is turning them in, you know, or being used at least to, to target these areas. I think police are using them. Um, but yeah, it's— there's a big crackdown right now with that. Um, but you know, yeah, straight people have lovers' lanes, but they're not sneaking around because of their entire identity being wrong, right? Sneaking around because sex is— Wrong or whatever, right?

There's actually a famous sociologist, um, named Laud Humphreys, and he wrote a book called The Tea Room Trade, and it was groundbreaking at the time. He studied the public restrooms in St. Louis where, um, men who have sex with men, um, would meet up. And, um, anyway, I'll cut to the chase on it. Um, what he found when he interviewed those individuals outside of that environment is they projected this uber-straight image, this uber-straight religious conservative image, um, in order to, uh, kind of mask their identity, right? And, um, uh, all that is to say, like, I understand why there are straight men who turn to crystal meth.

Mm-hmm.

Because it, you know, it takes down those guards, it takes down the anxiety. And, you know, there are a lot of bisexual and straight men who are part of that culture too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, masc for masc could also have another word meaning to it, right? The mask to wear. Yeah. Okay. Sexual disinhibition, right? Drugs allow exploration of desires that couldn't exist otherwise. That's, that's common, right? I mean, there's men who feel bad about their dick size or they can't bottom or their performance, right? But then when they, you know, of course in the PNP scene, all of that, Kind of goes away. And yeah, go ahead.

I was just gonna say yes, totally.

And then you—

we do, um, one of the things that we do see, right? Um, so I have a, a colleague and a friend who's a sex therapist. Um, he was based in New York, but he talks a lot about, um, how a lot of his practice is devoted to helping people get over those sexual anxieties. Um, there's also, um, I hope it's okay if I plug them, but the Dad and Daddy Podcast has been one of the best for me and for several other people in destigmatizing the shame around sex and dealing with that in issues of inhibition. So yeah, 10 out of 10 recommend No Notes.

Good. Yeah. I mean, you've, you're listing so many resources during this podcast too, by the way. Hopefully I can get links to them. The, the Don't Even Sound Straight, the Party Boy, um, the Tea Room Trade, right? And then Dad and Daddy's Podcast. Yeah, do that. I will hook you up. Uh, yeah, if that, if you're listening and you're connected to the Dad and Daddy's Podcast, I've been trying to get on there. So if you can connect me with them, I would greatly appreciate it. Um, and then this last, this last one in terms of core issue or root causes, profound sense of isolation and disconnection, which I think we've covered. It's just, no matter how much more connected we are through social media, we feel more isolated than ever.

That's the paradox of social media. This thing was supposed to bring us together and it has not. We talk about platform capitalism, so I'm borrowing a term from another great researcher. It's this idea that like Grindr, Niffy, Scruff, um, all of them have an incentive to not necessarily connect us, right? Their incentive is, let's, how long can we keep them on the apps? How long can we serve them ads in order to increase our bottom line?

Yep. Yep.

And then you, then you couple that with this sexual marketplace, uh, where we're sorting people by body type alone. And you end up with this profound sense of alienation that's not just in the gay world, it's in the entire, uh, world, you know, that, that there is this sense of lone— profound loneliness, uh, and, and that's, that's troubling, right? But, but we know what the root cause is, right?

Yeah.

The root cause are, uh, these platforms that prioritize their bottom line.

That's right. That's right. But not only that, like, I do want to talk about that for a minute, but I want to just address like how toxic the environment on these apps can be and what it— when, why, like, why do we feel it's, uh, it's like this, like this idea of, uh, what, what is it called, keyboard warrior or whatever, you know, this keyboard, whatever, when you're on social media and you just say things you wouldn't say normally. I guess it's some of that, but just the way that we talk to one another on Grindr, the way that we treat one another, it's just fucking no wonder I would go and use from being on there.

So that's actually my first academic publication is on Grindr and on the toxic culture that exists on there.

Nice.

And that thing went kind of, it went kind of viral. It's got a high number of people who've read it.

Nice.

Um, and, um, I don't have an explanation for it, but other than, other than to say online, you have to be very, um, it's, it's a sped up world, right? Where you're like, hey, how you doing? Here's, you know, here's a nude pic, let's fuck. Um, and yeah, um, as a result, people don't think— like, social media kind of short-circuits our brains and the whole interaction process.

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, as a result, we become versions of our worst self. There's also the fact that we're perceived to be anonymous and Even Plato wrote about the power of anonymity to bring out the worst in the human condition.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. And so like, this is not necessarily something new, but I think the degree to which it is new or being introduced via social media is something we should think about. You know, imagine if you only ever were allowed one Grindr account ever. Right. Um, that might change how people interact. And actually, you know, I did have a really great interaction with this, um, guy, and we just weren't a match, not sexually compatible. He looked great. And, you know, he came back and said, thanks for being so nice about that.

Yeah.

Like, you know, I— and then, and he was talking about how He's treated so poorly most of the time. You know, you don't have to be a dick.

Right, right, right. Well, yes, you don't have to be a dick. Um, and this idea of, I just ignore you if I, you know, no response is a response, you know, and I, I'm okay with that to a point, right?

Because— Actually, I have some sociology on that. Okay.

Okay, good, good. Yes.

I wanna break it down.

Okay.

Um, so there's a, um, one of the first theories of sociology people learn, they learn in intro, is this idea of the looking glass self. And it's this idea that I gain my perception of myself based on how I think you view me. So if—

Okay.

If no one hits on me, if no one tells me I look good today, if, if no one finds me sexually attractive, Mm-hmm. I'm gonna think, well, something's wrong with me.

Yep. Yep.

And the reverse is also true. If people come up to me and say, oh, you're handsome, you're classically handsome, as someone said to me. And, um, uh, that then tells me something as well. Right. And so, um, no response is a response is You know, fuck you, actually, you know, um, because you are, uh, not only are you, you so chickenshit you won't actually communicate, uh, um, something, but like you're reinforcing all of the, the anxiety that we carry with us.

Yeah.

Where you could just be kind and say, hey, look, this is what I'm looking for, and, and Sorry. Wish you luck.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I, I believe that's common courtesy. And I will say, like, not devil's advocate, but I will say there are times when I have given that courtesy and the person keeps coming back with, well, why not? Well, what's wrong with me? You know?

That's, that's fair too.

So I, I get that that could be, you know, a little annoying, but you know, you just have to, which shows again, kind of there where they are. Right. But at this point in my emotional intelligence, I can have compassion for that though, because I've been there and I've, you know, I know what he's feeling. Right. And so I can patiently come back and say, it's really nothing personal. It's just not a preference for me or whatever, you know.

So in sociology, um, one of the things that we talk about is taking the role of the other.

Mm.

And this particular theorist said, you aren't fully developed as a human being until you're able to take the role of the other, which means interpreting how your actions influence this mosaic, this web of human experience, and how your place within it impacts all of the things around you. And social media and so much of our culture has kind of reversed that entire process, right? So I think more people could be more human, right? And could learn to take the role of the other, right? Yes.

Yeah, I think so too. And, you know, add some light to Grindr if you're going to be on it. Like, be the change you want to see in the world. You know, as Gandhi said, when you're out there—

And I will say, just so like I'm completely honest with folks, I'm sure, I know there's times where I was a complete asshole, right?

Oh yeah.

But the, you know, I try not to be. And actually these days I don't even go on the apps because Meh.

Right, right. So in terms of it being a platform capitalism, um, you know, I'm— I have the firm belief that Grindr knows they're making most of their money off tweakers, that they're making money off people. They want you to stay on there as long as you can. Who stays on there the longest? Somebody who's high on meth. You can't fucking get off of it. You know, you can't get off. You're scrolling for hours, days. And I really believe they know that because they don't want to put— we've asked them, like every treatment center in LA, like all the top influencers, me, we've all asked them, could you just put a phone number, something on there that says, you know, for chemsex addiction help or for addiction help or something? Something to give it, you know, to be responsible because I believe that they talk, it's, it's whether they like it or not, they're targeting men who are high on crystal meth cuz they're the ones that stay on there the longest. My opinion.

Well, so I can't speak to that. Um, not that I'm defending Grindr in the least, but what I know, what I can tell you is there's some interesting research about How media platforms have spent a lot of money engineering their apps to be highly addictive and to tap into— they basically are harnessing the social sciences to make their products more addicting. They'll say things like, to increase the user experience, or some kind of flowery language to hide what they're really doing.

Yeah.

But That swipe motion has been engineered by corporations because it is addicting. And there's some great work about Las Vegas slot machines and how that whole process is engineered to be addicting.

Tight.

And also the infinite scroll, right? Grindr, that is also part of this process. Like, it's part of, uh, keeping us on the apps because it makes us feel like there's an infinite pool of people out there. And it also reinforces that toxic culture because, you know, oh yeah, I can be a dick to this guy because there's 100 other people.

That's right. That's right. And if you're listening, if you think for a minute, so if you don't pay for extra, Then you have this one little limited radius, right? If you think it's an accident that suddenly somebody 20 miles away that's outside of that radius shows up on your grid, then you're fooling yourself. They know they're trying to keep you on by saying, oh, you like this? You, you keep clicking on bottoms and you're messaging twinks, right? Like they profile you and then they bring a A nice little twink bottom into your profile. This, this, this happens. Again, there's no research. This is me, Dallas, anecdotally saying, but this happens. I swear to God, it happens to keep you on there, which there's nothing, there's nothing entirely wrong about that. But there is when a bunch of your users are relapsing and finding meth and discovering it and continuing to use it through your app. I think you have some type of responsibility, but anyway, this is not what this podcast is about.

So, um, there is a couple things that like I did want to bring up, link to the data, right?

Okay. Um, yes, link us to the data.

So what I found when I put that presentation together, um, that you're talking about was that the user demographics were so interesting. Um, they're— it's largely white, largely affluent. Um, and, uh, the, the other thing we found, and this is why I really, um, became attracted to this as a topic, there's a paper that came out that said a quarter of new HIV infections were from, uh, chemsex.

Mm-hmm.

And that's why I think it's an issue that's worthy to talk about because what I found when I delved into data is that those people who were in the chemsex culture having risky sexual experiences were least likely to use PrEP.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, or, you know, use any kind of real protection. And I find that so fascinating that you have these people who are, again, well-educated, white affluent who would just throw caution to the wind. Like, uh, you know, I, I could understand if someone is, uh, participating in this and they forget to take their meds, but these people, at least how the question was asked, they're not even on PrEP.

Right, right.

And so like, there's a, there's a whole privilege aspect to this too, um, and how privilege plays into this and how, like, whiteness plays into this. Um, and I think there's some kind of, uh, you know, there's this topic about this crisis of masculinity happening, and I think that's kind of partly behind all this.

Mm-hmm.

If you, you know, and I think you could talk about this from a queer perspective and The other thing I want to mention is, relatively speaking, so what I found from the latest data was that about 12% of, from the CDC report, used either meth, coke, or prescription, like Adderall, like prescription stimulants. I tried to find some more accurate estimates and it really ranges from like 15% to 4% was what I found. So it's not an insignificant number. And the other thing that I found was that, again, based on this Substance Abuse Mental Health Services report, gay men twice as likely to use you know, stimulants than their straight counterparts. So yeah, it's, it's kind of, it's an issue. And when you see numbers like that as a sociologist, it means that there's something structural going on.

Right. That's exactly right. Which I feel like we're touching on so many parts of the structure, structural problem, right? You said that you were afraid that some of this data would be harmful to the population. Could you talk about that a little bit?

So, um, as a researcher, if whatever I put out there into the world can be used by folks for all kinds of things, um, it can be used to target people. Or it could be used to help people. Obviously, I hope that it is something that is used to help people, but there are government officials, police agencies, whatnot, who are out there, right? And we live in a society that really criminalizes— they make a lot of money off of drug users. In in the U.S., and there are a lot of people locked up for it. And as a result, I didn't want to put anything out there that might be used to target the gay community. And so I I didn't I didn't talk about this, and I like I said, I omitted a large part of my data because I at one point I wanted to write an article about how. Grindr is used to sell drugs, right? But I realized at that time that that just no, I wasn't going to do it because again, I don't want to harm the community. I want our community to be better. And you know, there there's a lot of conversations going on. Your podcast is part of that that need to be happening that haven't happened in a long time, and I'm really excited to see where we go with it. You know, and about sex, about drug use, about what it means to be in a relationship, all kinds of stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing you mentioned too, back to the report, is that smaller areas might actually be more at risk, all right, due to the marginalization and less resources. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Sure. In fact, I can even personalize it.

Okay.

The number of— so I have— I came into academia thinking it was my route to a city. So far, uh, it hasn't been that my history. Like, I've been primarily in red states, in rural areas. The number of times that I have had to explain to my doctor what PrEP is, why I want it, and—

Oh my God.

You know, and honestly, the first— so my first position was in Kansas. And the doctor came in and thought I was, uh, she, she wanted to know if I was engaging in high-risk sexual behaviors and what, what that all like. And I was like, whoa, lady, let me, let's slow this down. Let's, let's have a conversation. And it was clear to me she, this was the first conversation she probably had. And she'd been a doctor for like 20 years.

Hmm.

Um, so What I mean by rural areas are more at risk, there's less resources there. There's less organizations. Uh, there's less recovery. There's more of a stigma because if you get labeled in a small town as whatever, that you're screwed, man. That, that sticks with you.

Um, interesting.

You can't hide, um, because the communities there are so small. Um, You know, my downstairs neighbor and I often talk about like Kansas because that's where he's from. And he talks about how in his hometown, news would travel faster than he could in his car. There's, there's less knowledge about gay sex, right? And how that works within the medical community in those places. Like, I think it would blow their minds if they found out about chemsex. Like, uh, you know, if, if they haven't heard about PrEP, like, whoa, let me hold on, sister. Let me tell you about all this other stuff that's out there. And so you really need, um, services and agencies that understand what that is, that can have open and honest conversations and, and This is especially true for rural areas, but it's even true for urban areas. Doctors need to basically know and create a safe space for their patients. Because as a gay man, the likelihood that I have a gay doctor is relatively low in the Midwest.

Yeah.

And I have to do a lot of handholding, a lot of explaining, and sometimes I It's tiring. Sometimes I just don't want to explain it at all and, uh, just move on with my life.

Hmm. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, 'cause a lot of guys that I meet from larger cities say that they have it harder, right? Because there's more people to choose from or there's more opportunities or you could buy it on the street or whatever.

Oh, you mean in terms of drug, like Buying and selling of drugs?

Well, it, well, just in recovery or just the whole, you know, just the whole scene is being gay or being, you know, trying to stop using. And the, what you're, what you're listing to me is like a whole set of difficulties that somebody in New York City wouldn't have. Right. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's more difficult to be gay and in this, to be gay for one thing, and wherever you are. But also to get out of the chemsex use, it doesn't seem to be, I mean—

So the only, like, again, 7 or 8 moves all across the country. The one truism that I have found, whether I'm in Chicago or whether I'm in Galesburg, Illinois, which is a very tiny town, is that you can pull up an app, a gay dating app and find drugs if you really want to.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, yeah. And, you know, whether or not it's more prevalent, I'm not sure. I think the use looks a heck of a lot different in those areas. I think there's a lot more, um, people in rural areas that are using because of their inhibitions and the stigma. I think in urban areas, it's, Um, I think a lot of people start off in urban areas using because they, uh, are trying to amplify something that they have. Um, you know, amplify their sex life, ampl— you know, and, and, um, so I think the, the reasons look a heck of a lot different.

Yeah.

And also in, uh, urban areas, you're more, at least based off, uh, what I've found is there's a lot more affluent gay men using it. Um, in more rural areas, it's, it's more of the stereotype that is presented of the meth users sometimes, right? Like, again, this is a drug that knows no, uh, boundary, right? Like, there are professors, uh, there are, um, uh, kids of, of some of my colleagues, um, who have used, you know, like—

Yeah.

It doesn't, it doesn't know any age limit. So, right.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the affluent men who come to me usually have positions, work positions, uh, where they can't publicly admit that they use and they can't step away to go to rehab because then that's admitting their use. They'll lose their licensure. or their position, right? But they cannot stop relapsing on it.

I had a lawyer reach out to me via email once, and he was a Latino in the Midwest. And he thanked me for something I wrote. It was a public-facing piece and proceeded to explain that, like, his racial identity, um, made him want to use and made him susceptible to people who wanted him to use, and then he became hooked. But he had recovered and turned his life around and, um, from what I can tell, was very successful in his practice. So, um, yeah.

Can be done. Can be done. So one thing about— you didn't want— you said in your report, like, and this goes— I think this still correlates with trying not to harm people— is that you didn't want to portray the gay community as all gay people are drug-using sexual perverts, right?

Yes.

Like, you don't want it to be like, this is the gay community, right? Do you think that that is why it's not talked about much in the gay community, is that we're— we don't want to bring it up because we don't want it to make us look bad, like deviants. Do you think that's why we're shying away from it?

Um, wow. So I think I'm reflecting on some things that I know. I think that, um, the people who are most uptight about it probably have something going on in their lives that they don't want to admit to. It may not be meth, but I know a lot of gay business owners who are using a lot of cocaine. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Um, but they don't want the light to be cast on them.

Yeah.

And so, and, and also, I think maybe they are not using any substance at all, right? I think that they have a preconceived notion of what a user is, why, like, like, I think they think that they're making a choice where sometimes they're not. There are people who have been sexually assaulted with meth or with other drugs being given to them, and then they become hooked. Something I know all too well. And again, I think it's this stigma of What a, what a meth user is. And that stereotype just doesn't fit. Like, I, I talked to you in the pre-interview about this. In the UK, it's a classy drug, right? Because it costs so much more. Uh, so that, that stereotype that we have here in the US is way different.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm just going to say again, from— this is Dallas speaking, but I do believe there's a lot of top gay influencers who aren't talking about it because they're using it. I mean, that's just what I think. Again, anecdotal. Okay. One last thing is what's— in reading all and doing all this research and looking at everything you're looking at, what gives you hope?

Hmm. Hope in this economy? Right. So one of the things that gave me hope recently, So I mentioned earlier about like, there's a whole sexual revolution going on.

Yeah.

So part of my position at Michigan State has allowed me to look through the archives of a famous anthropologist and sociologist named Stephen O'Murray. And this archive is amazing. It is like time traveling through history. And in the '60s and the '70s, you saw people having conversations around spirituality, around sexuality in terms of like, you know, educating other gay folk as to like how we do sex, right? You know what it means to be a partner to somebody. You saw experimentations with relationships because we couldn't get married, and so people had, you know, throuples, you know, and just this like really exploration of who we are as individuals and a community. I see some of that happening now, at least where I'm at. Um, so I live in the Kansas City metro area and there's a lot of groups who are having that conversation. I see some of these conversations emerging online slowly. It's not the, it's not the big— thrust that you can go through the archives. And also this conversation happened again during the AIDS crisis. So I'm starting to see it now. So what gives me hope is I see mobilization of a gay liberation front, like another wave of LGBT politics. And I don't know what that's necessarily going to look like. I'm no prophet.

Yeah.

But we're gonna— important conversations are happening and we are learning more about ourselves because right now we are under attack and we have to.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I love it. Love it. Okay. What did I miss today? What did I not ask that you were hoping I would ask?

You know, we covered so much. Um, I got the data in there.

You know, um, you steered, you steered me back from the Grindr platform soapbox I was on. Thank you for that.

Just, you know, the, the one thing that I think, um, I— and we really, we talked a lot about this, but, um, the gay world, because of its, uh, marginality, has had to learn all kinds of new ways of existing. And, um, At the same time, there's this expectation about like, oh, when are you gonna get married? When are you gonna, like, you know, the world wants us to look like straights. And I'm sorry, I, that's just not gonna happen for me, you know?

Right.

And that puts a pressure on folks to conform to an ideal or to an image that isn't real. And that, that causes a lot of harm. And one of the ways in which people are harmed is they turn to drugs, they turn to alcohol, they turn to all kinds of different substances to soothe that pain. And, uh, you know, and so for that reason, I'm glad to be part of furthering this conversation and humanizing, um, Hmm. the people who are impacted by this.

Yeah, yeah, great. Thank you. Yeah, there's some real, real people going through some really hurtful things right now and really hurting. Um, it's— I, I just, you know, we talked about some of these comments I get on social media about, you know, just leave them alone, let them party, I'm a buzzkill and all this stuff. And I'm just like, if you could only sit on the other side of a Zoom call from a man who's in permanent psychosis or has lost their family, right? I mean, it's like, you don't see the real damage this is doing. This is not a party drug for real. I mean, it's destroying lives all around us. So I'm a buzzkill, I guess, in that way. So, well, thank you so much for this. This was very enjoyable for me. It was a good conversation.

My pleasure.

And you're doing some good work and I really appreciate it. And thank you for all the references, the resources too. A lot of, you've done a lot of, you've brought a lot more to my purview than I had before, and I appreciate that.

Yeah. And I'll send you some others too.

Good.

But yeah, thanks for this. This was great, both for me personally and in many, just many different ways. So I appreciate that.

Yeah. Good. Thank you. Me too. Me too. All right guys, hope you enjoyed it. Um, please be sure you comment if you did or, or you didn't. You can, uh, you can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube. There's also an option to send a text that comes from the platform that distributes all the podcasts. If you do send a text and leave a comment, that's fine. Just, just understand that I don't have your number. So if you ask a question, give me some kind of identifying information that I can answer it for you, or I'll answer it on the air, but just anonymously. So, all right guys, thank you. We'll see you next week.