EP 2:41 Encore: Fuck Like a Porn Star with Jayson Parker

Hey y'all, this is one of my favorite episodes so far. I wasn't expecting that. I am very grateful that you're here, whether you are trying to quit using meth, trying to stay abstinent from meth, or learning all you can to support others. No matter why you're here, I want to say thank you. I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. It is so amazing for me to witness this labor of love continue to evolve, grow and bloom into something that I did not expect. I love your comments and I love your DMs, so please keep them coming. So over and over and over, I'm reading messages— speaking of DMs— and seeing comments on my content from defeated men who feel like sexually damaged goods, who've given up on enjoying sex again, whose parts aren't working anymore. Look, I know. I've been there. I've been right where you are. And my journey to where I am now, it was much more tedious. It was much more slow and clunky, but I got there. But compared to our guest today, he knows what he's doing so much that he has now made a full-time career having sex on camera. Our very first adult content creator joins the show, and he brings with him to me the exact model we all need to follow for deep, empowering, life-changing recovery. And the secret is all between his ears. You thought I was going to say between his legs, didn't you? His mindset. His mindset sets him apart from most any other man in recovery that I've spoken with on this podcast. He truly gets it. He understands how to choose self-love. Giving up the apps, reclaiming his sexual identity, and taking control of his own life no matter who or what says otherwise. I want you to listen closely to his attitude and his outlook because all of us can learn from this young man. All right, enjoy the conversation. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Season 2 is on, on a roll. We are getting some really deep topics, and if you notice, we're changing a little bit away from particular just stories, and we're trying to get into different topics and different, um, really just different scenarios that will help you specifically in your journey. Because, you know, all of us who have been on the meth journey, um, yeah, our stories are different, but they're really not, you know. I mean, I get guys all the time DMing me and it's like, this may shock you, but— and I'm like, Okay, yeah, there's nothing you can say at this point that could shock me. Um, you know, I've been in the trenches with you. I, I get it. Um, so, but, you know, um, I just want to say I want to focus more on not only just the recovery part but specific topics. And today we have a very specific topic from someone that I have been— not you particularly, I'm glad you're here— but I've been trying to get a porn star on this show for a while. And I, um, and so I had 2 different porn, porn star, porn professionals, um, scheduled on the show, and they both ghosted me. They set up the appointment and didn't show up. So I don't know what that's about. Um, or there was another one who's famous for his feet, um, and he— there was, um, there were some issues there. But, um, I just, I want, I really want to dive into, and we're going to today, um, how do you make porn, have, have that amount, that amount of sex and it not be a trigger, right? Um, and specifically, I'm glad you're here, Jason. I'm gonna, I'm gonna let Jason introduce himself in a minute, but because of the type of porn you do. Because I took a little— I took a little view of your, of your work, and the, the type of porn you do is— it's that, that type of sex we have on meth a lot, right? It's the type of porn we watch when we use meth. I'm just going to say that, or at least for me it is. Um, you know, the gangbangs and the, you know, the, um Everything else that you do. So check out— by the way, his name is Jason Parker, and I'm gonna let him speak in just a minute. I have to do this housekeeping first. I'm getting ahead of myself. But today we're talking about, uh, we're talking about a lot, but we're gonna, we're gonna talk to an actual porn star. And I would say you are a star. Like, it's hard to say porn star these days because it's so many people have their OnlyFans, you know, and their, their accounts. Um, and I don't know who's a star anymore. I thought I was a star once. I did have a video on, uh, Pornhub one time.

Oh, wow. Uh, yeah, I I did.

I don't know where it is. If anybody out there finds it, let me know because it was a pretty good one, but I, I must have deleted it. Um, anyway, I'm grateful that you're here today. Um, don't forget there's a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode. The link to that will be in the show notes, or it can be emailed to you if you join my mailing list, drdallasbragg.com. Um, we have a free Facebook community, The Aftermath Podcast, and you can actually watch the show on YouTube, so you can listen to it or watch it or both at the same time. And on Spotify, you can read the script while you listen to it. So lots of options for you. But Jason Parker, could you please introduce yourself to us, please? Yes.

Hello. My name is Jason Parker. Well, that's my stage name, but most people know me as Jason Parker. I'm really grateful to be on this podcast. Do I call you Dallas or do I call you Dr. Bragg? I know you said in text. Okay.

Dallas. Dallas. Yeah. Dallas, please.

Yeah. Dallas, thanks for having me on. Um, you know, we had a little conversation and, um, I'm actually really excited to be here and to talk about these topics because like, like I'm not exempted just because I'm doing this now does not mean that like it wasn't a struggle.

Mm-hmm.

That it wasn't challenging to like navigate these topics, um, when trying to get like clean. from meth addiction, but like meth addiction that like very prominently featured chemsex, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I don't know, like, I feel like I'm in a really good position right now. And I know that there are, there are many men that just like you said, their stories are just like mine. Um, and I, I love to be part of the chorus of voices that helps a person find, um, I don't know, like a, like a satisfying and fulfilling sex life. Apart from that, aftermath, right? So yeah, I do porn. I actually quit my day job as a money laundering investigator back in May. Yeah, back in May of 2023.

Wow.

Yeah, I got to a point where just like economically it made more sense to do this full-time than work at the bank. And I mostly do like JustForFans. I have an OnlyFans. I like manage a Twitter. I have some videos on Pornhub. But I've also done some studio work with, with different, like, big studios. Um, and you know, um, you're, you're right. A lot of the content that I produce— when I got started, I just wanted to make videos that, like, I wanted to see.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Like, I, I, I, I consume porn. Um, and there was just, like, not a lot of videos that, like, that featured, I don't know, stories or, or topics or whatever themes that, like, I wanted to see. And so I just like, I started making them. And as time has gone by, I've kind of like gotten into this sort of like niche of like kink, fetish, seedy, piggy, public, risky kind of content.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know, it's really fun. And I feel, I feel kind of, I don't know, fortunate to be able to do this and to be free of You know, I mean, it felt, it used to feel inescapable, right? That, um, that I would never be able to engage in this kind of stuff without something in the back of my head drawing me back into the life that I used to live. So it's a little bit of me in that show.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. This is fascinating for me. And I think for our listeners too. So, well, can you tell us a little bit then about your journey with, with myth? And, and also, I'm anxious to know, did the, the content creation begin before or after?

Yeah, great question, actually. So a little bit of background. I was born and raised in Utah, just outside of Salt Lake City, and grew up, grew up Mormon, did the whole like missionary thing. But like, that gave me significant like shame around my body. And around my sex and around like this, the kind of sex that I wanted to have, and simply like the fact that I wanted to have sex, but also my sexuality as a gay man. And I have this opinion that like drugs, drugs do something really important for us in the beginning, apart from just like the physical sensation that we get, right? Like it does something magical almost. A lot of people describe those first moments of getting high on, on like the drug that like is really a problem for them. It's like coming home.

Mm-hmm.

Or like suddenly everything makes sense.

Yeah.

Or suddenly the world just feels right. And, um, that's why we keep going back to it, even when like our habits start to wreak havoc in our lives. And for me, like growing up with like all of this, uh, religious trauma, When I did meth for the first time, God, like, it just all went away for the first fucking time ever. I hope I can swear on this podcast.

You can say whatever the fuck you want.

Cool. Um, all of that, like, shame and, and the hangups and the second-guessing and the whatever went away. Um, you know, it was replaced by different shame around, like, what I was getting up to, but, like, um, for the most part this like burden that I had been carrying throughout my life just like dissipated. And like, that was the most wonderful feeling. And like, I think that that's a big reason why I kept going back to it. And I was— I rarely was a project tweaker. I was always a party and play tweaker.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, towards the end, Things were really bad. I wasn't really interacting with people very much, but I was still like, I was still on Zoom. I was still like kind of showing off and making video, mostly like doing stuff on camera. I never left my house. I was in my parents' basement, you know, unemployed, about to get kicked out.

Sure.

No friends or contacts or relations or whatever. But I'm like dancing in my leather harnesses on Zoom and like getting a lot of validation from people, you know? And like around the same time too, I did ChatterBait with a, with a person that I was using with.

Oh yeah.

And, you know, that was interesting. We were high as hell, but it was really interesting. I kind of like got off to like being an exhibitionist. So I think that the porn thing did have its origins in my time, like in active, like drug addiction. Interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. I did Chatterbait once and we had the camera turned to the wall the whole time. Right?

Yeah, that's the, that's the kind of shit that— yes.

Not that this is about me, but Just reminded me that just— you just unlocked the memory of Chatterbait. Wow. Anyway, yeah, I think it's very interesting that you bring up, and we've said it here before, but I think it's worth repeating, is this— the first time you use it, you just— it's a magic elixir for gay men that, like you said, like, you can't— coming home, everything makes sense. You know, I had, um, one of my clients said that he just The first puff, he said, this is what I've been looking for all my life. Right? I mean, and all of your trauma is gone just in an instant. Right? You're free. That's, that's really what we're addicted to, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's, it's, we can't take it with us. Right. I'm free momentarily while the high lasts. Right. And when it goes away, I am, I'm back in that same prison.

Even more, right? Even more of a—

even more so, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So, so your, your origins was there. And so did you get kicked out of the basement? What was, what was the, what was next for you? What, what made you, what was the catalyst for your recovery?

Yeah. Thankfully, no. Like I was, I was about to, um, my family was, was getting to the point where it's like, we've done everything we can do for this kid and he's just, he's just not getting better. And like at this point it's, It's impacting us, and it's not doing anything for us, and it's not doing anything for him. And like I learned that because I was going through my family's phones, you know, like we do.

Yeah.

And but you know, it just it prompted this. I call it the night of dark the dark night of the soul, where I. I was getting high and I wasn't actually high, right? Like I was using, but I wasn't getting any high. My mental state was not changing.

Yeah.

I was still just feeling shitty and shitty and shitty. And I, I had this realization that like growing up I had all of these hopes and dreams and aspirations, like what I wanted my life to look like in my 20s, 30s, whatever. And all of it just felt so impossibly out of reach. That there was nothing that I could do to even approximate even the smallest goal that I had for myself when I was younger. And that I had nothing left. And that really the only thing I had going for my life was this drug. And it wasn't even doing the thing anymore.

Hmm.

And I, that wasn't the last time that I, that I used, um, you know, I kept going for probably another month and a half.

Mm-hmm.

And somehow my parents put up with it for, for a little while longer. And there really was not like a thing or an event that just like, you know, suddenly I, I'm, I'm like committed to being sober the next day. It was just like, I'm, I, sometime in February, um, I was just like, I'm done.

Yeah.

Like, I'm so sick of this.

Yeah.

And that's when I first seriously tried getting clean. I had tried a lot of stuff leading up to that moment, but it was kind of half-assed. That moment in February of 2019 was the first time that I seriously tried to get clean.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's interesting. And I think it would help a lot of listeners to kind of to understand that sometimes your heart changes, but that doesn't mean you instantly quit, right? Like, sometimes your heart— in your heart you're done, but your body's in this momentum, and it's this subconscious, like you're still going through the motions of using. And that's when it, it stops being fun. And that's when, you know, like I described in a reel the other day, and it got so much attention, was this When I was done, but I kept going. Like, when I was on my phone trying to get, you know, making the deal or, you know, going to the party, I would— my body would revolt. Like, I would be shaking so hard, I would be freezing, you know, my blood would leave my extremities because it just wasn't in alignment with who I was anymore.

Right.

But I was forcing myself to do it. So I think it's interesting that you bring that up. Not me, but we have said that before, but your heart does have a change. And when you're done in your heart, just know that you're on your way out. I think it's important to know that.

Yeah, I sort of missed making that point. The realization that I had nothing going for me came with this like, that sucks. Like, I didn't like that. Fact of my life. I wanted it to be different. I didn't know what I wanted at that point, but I, but I wanted something, right? I didn't have anything. I wanted something. And that was kind of like the change in my heart that, you know, it took a little while for my body to catch up to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. So then you, you started on your path. What were some of your top techniques? Like, what made the difference for you? Early on?

So, you know what's interesting? My, like, my story of, like, getting clean prior to that moment that I just described, I had, like, gone through the whole thing of, like, okay, I can't do meth, but, like, cocaine's still okay and I can, like, do ecstasy and whatever. I went through this whole process of, like, learning that, like, no drug, like, I can't, I can't handle doing any drug without, like, eventually going back to meth. And that included drinking. I tried just like sticking to alcohol because like I didn't like drinking.

Right.

Didn't like the feeling.

Right.

It's the same for ketamine and like all these other drugs. Like I just didn't like the sensation. And yet I would do it and keep doing it and then eventually go back to meth. And I went through a similar process with like sex actually. By the time in February of 2019, by the time I was like, okay, I need to get serious. I had already gone through the process of understanding, knowing that I cannot try to initiate sex in the way that I have been without eventually going back to meth. There's something wrong with my relationship to sex and it's not going away simply because I want it to. And so for me, this isn't something that I would recommend for everyone, but it worked for me. I decided to take a break from the apps, from hooking up, from thinking about sex, from pursuing sex. I tried not looking at porn, but didn't make it super long. But I was just trying to forge a new relationship with sex. And I was like, I'm going to do a year because apparently our minds I was just like hyperfixated on these like clean timelines or whatever. So I was like, I'm gonna do it a year. I made it about 9 months. Um, and by the end of that 9 months, I was like, I think that I'm ready because I know that like I've gone through the grieving process of, of saying goodbye to how I engaged in, um, in sex when I was fucked up. And I was ready to start looking for something new. And so I knew that Grindr and all those other apps were going to be a problem for me. So I said, I can have as much sex as I want, but it has to be organic. It has to happen organically, whether through a friend of a friend or getting close to someone who we have that sort of rapport. Or at like an orgy, because like I was getting invited to those. And I'll talk more about this later because like these orgies were not like sober orgies. Like there were horrific amounts of drugs there. And so navigating that was a little tricky. But also cruising. I had never cruised before. Like even during my addiction, I always wanted to, but I was like super paranoid. But like, you know, I knew that it was a thing and I kind of knew how to like do it. And so when I said like, I'm gonna have as much sex as I want, it just has to happen organically. At the gym, I would just like start to linger in the like steam rooms and saunas and just be like aware of what's going on around me. And like, I had my first experience in a gym sauna and it was just like, Wow, this is so cool. I'd never done this before. This is so cool and how thrilling and exciting and whatever. And so I think that was just the start of, like I said, forging this new relationship with sex, doing something different, trying, honestly seeking, believing that there is a sex life aftermath. And actually going to look for it. Like, I think that that's, that's sort of how, uh, things started after I got sober.

I really like, um, changing your relationship to sex. I mean, that's— and how you initiate sex. Um, I think that's important for listeners to, to really dig into, you know. What is your relationship to sex? In other words, what is your arousal template? We've been talking about arousal templates in, in my program. And, you know, how do you— what is your originations with sex? And then how do you perceive it now? And I love that you took the time it took, like 9 months was all you needed. There wasn't an arbitrary rule. But the grieving process you're talking about, can you talk— can you expand on that a little bit?

Yeah, you know, growing up Mormon and like getting away from that, I just like had this deep understanding that like you can't shame yourself into compliance with like a new way of life. You know, like I can't move myself in a direction in terms of like where I want my life to go by like being harsh on myself, being hard on myself. I can't hate myself into a new life. And so demonizing, villainizing, trivializing, trying to make my drug addiction out to be this Horrible, awful thing. It was evil. It was whatever. It just—I knew that that was not going to work. That was not going to keep me away. And so I had to look at like what positive things came from my addiction. What positive things came from the sex that I got into, right? Yeah. You know, I don't think that I—I would not be in the position I'm in now had I never gotten addicted to meth, right? And so like, I have received some like wonderful gifts that I probably would never have gotten, or I would not have gotten as quickly.

Mm-hmm.

And yet this thing cannot be in my life anymore, right? Like, I got all these wonderful things. It's no longer giving me those things. And so I have to say goodbye. And, you know, when we talk about grieving, grieving is, grieving is like this appreciation for this thing that is no longer there. And like, I was able to like reverence my addiction, reverence the positive things that came out of my addiction, including like this, like sex life that I had. And then like, let it go, let it go in the sense of like, just accepting and understanding that like, I cannot, it's just, it can't be in my life anymore, you know?

Yeah.

And it sucks, right? Like it is, it is sad. Um, and honestly, it can— it gave me a lot of fear. Fear of like, oh no, like, what if I never— what if I never feel fulfilled in my sex life again? Um, and so like, I had to find and hold on to like a sense of hope. Um, even if that hope was like literally pulled out of thin air.

Hmm.

Just like, you know what, I have no idea if I'm ever gonna have a, a, a fulfilling sex life again. But I fucking want to have one, you know? Yeah, like, I want that to be the case in my future. And that helped me through that grieving process, letting things go, being sad, but then also finding hope for what comes next. Hmm.

I advise you to rewind and listen to what he just said again and again, because that's perfect. Perfect, Jason. Thank you for that. Um, I even got chills because it's perfect too. Oh, okay. So I'm just trying to, trying to figure out where to start. Appreciating the positives of what you got from the meth experience, because you wouldn't be where you are without it, and not demonizing your addiction— those 2 things are so important if you want to get through this, um, and, and through this in a way that's healthy and sustainable. Um, you know, there's things that I got from, from my experience in terms of being careful and comfortable in my own skin. Like, I was afraid to take my shirt off in public, and then when I started in the meth crowd, you know, I got naked at the door. And I loved being naked, right? Um, an icebreaker was a shower with somebody, right? I mean, that's kind of like, you know, what you do. And so I just— and now I'm to that point too, you know. So, so there are positives that come from that. It's the, the, the, the analogy or the metaphor, whatever, that I, that I always think about is breaking up with an ex that was really good in bed, right? But it's just toxic for you in your life.

Yeah.

And it's sad to say goodbye, but you have to, you know, take the good and you have to say, this is what the good that came out of it, and we had a great time, and I don't want to say goodbye to you, but I have to say this part of my life is gone. But a lot of us will keep calling or texting the ex when we get drunk, right? In terms of— and then that starts the, the wheel all back, the cycle all back over. And that's what happens when we keep going back to that euphoric recall of this is what meth can give me, this is what the ex can give me, is, you know, no one else can fuck me like they can, that kind of thing. Um, but what you're saying, that process and holding on to that hope and being so determined, like, I'm going to love sex again no matter what— that's, that's empowerment right there. That's what's missing in so many of you that I talk to. Is I'll just— the why— I, I don't— I say this in the, in the most loving way, but the whining about sex— I'm never going to have sex like that again, I'm always— sober sex is boring, I'm never going to meet a man, blah blah blah. But this is the opposite of that. This is, I'm making it happen. This is what you did. You made it happen. And I just love it. Thank you.

There's, there's something so sinister too about stimulant addiction, and particularly meth addiction. You know, like I've sat through some workshops where it was presented to me and I think that this was an NIH thing. I don't wanna like misrepresent that. But like some sort of study was conducted where like the effects that meth has on your brain in terms of like dopamine reaction is just unmatched. It's unparalleled by like any other thing that we can put in— put our bodies through. And, you know, that, hijacks our reward system and it teaches us that like a very significant shift in how we're feeling is available like almost instantly, right?

Yeah.

Like the methods of doing the drug are pretty quick and we carry that with us when we stop. You know, we want things now. We want a fulfilling sex life Now. And that doesn't allow for, you know, um, stumbling, right? Like, um, I wanted to find a fulfilling sex life, um, and some of the places that I looked were not it, right? Like, some of the things that I tried, just like, it's like, fuck, this isn't, this isn't it.

Yeah.

And as opposed to like despairing, like, oh no, like this means that it's just not out there.

That's right.

It's like, okay, This thing is not it. This is right. This is not the new thing for me. What else is there?

That's exactly right. Exactly right. You have to keep pushing on. You have to keep experimenting. It's actually, it's actually such an opportunity for you to have a clean slate and to rediscover and reclaim who you are sexually through this process, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah.

The other thing you said was, I can't hate myself into a new life. That, that should be the title of this podcast because— or this, this episode anyway— is that you— that, that is so profound for you listening, is you cannot hate yourself, which shame yourself, into a new life. You can't shame yourself out of, out of, uh, Matthews either. You can't hate yourself out of it. Um, you, you have to find this place where you, you find some love for yourself, love for what has been, and let it go, like you said. Yep, I like that. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So, okay, orgies, cruising, you, you tried the gamut and you found your way into sex that you enjoyed. So was it triggering though at first, especially the orgies?

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, um, yes, um, and like even just like the one-on-one organic sex that I had with someone that I established a rapport with. In the beginning, of course it was triggering because it's like sex and meth are just so hardwired together. But I also knew to expect that. And I knew that it, that like that was, that I didn't have to do anything with it. I could just like let it be and know that it would pass. But like the orgies, for example, right? Like, like I said, like there probably were people doing meth, right? Let's be real.

Yeah.

But like openly, there was people doing cocaine and MDMA and ketamine and GHB and all the things. And if I went there with the wrong intention, and also if I went there by myself without any support, I was in trouble.

Hmm.

And I had a couple close calls. But like part of Creating this new relationship with sex is like, I had to find a community of like-minded people.

Okay.

And when I say community, I don't mean support groups. I mean just like people, right? Like a support network. Like, you know, friends, maybe not even friends, right? But just like people that I knew that like I can talk to openly about this stuff. And so like for the orgies, I had a buddy, you know, like I had a sober buddy.

Yeah, yeah.

Someone else that was also going and wanting to abstain from using any sort of drugs. And we kept ourselves accountable. But like, there's an important piece to that too. I can't expect something outside of me to do the work for me. Like, I can't expect to bring someone to these situations with me And place the responsibility for keeping me sober on them. It's my responsibility. They just help. They support that. When I'm feeling whatever, I can go to them and be like, this is how I'm feeling. And they can say like, okay, do you want to leave? And I can feel safe in leaving or staying, right? But the impetus is still on me to be in that space. and be honest with myself. Can I remain here without like being tempted?

Yeah.

And if not, it's time to fucking go. Because remember, like, I want to find a life after, after this, like drug addiction.

Yeah.

A happy life after this drug addiction. And going back is just like, it's just, I'm just gonna be spinning my wheels in the same place.

Yeah.

And so like the buddy system really helped a lot. Having a network of people helped a lot. And like, it can't simply just be another person that's trying to recover from addiction. It has to be, you know, someone that's doing that, but that is also sexually liberated in the way that you might be sexually liberated, right?

Mm-hmm.

That you can go to and just like not feel any awkwardness at all. In discussing these topics. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean, I think that makes such a difference, I'm sure, especially early on if you start going to an orgy where they're doing drugs. You know somebody's there with you, right? You have somebody accountable to be held accountable. So you took a long break from the apps, at least 9 months or so. You took a break from the apps, which is a big A big standard of mine, you know. I think you should— early recovery from crystal meth, why would you be— why would you open yourself up, right, to Grindr sniffies, whatever? Um, when you go back on— and I noticed on your page, which by the way, I don't— this is— I'm asking— I asked you a lot of dumb questions before we went— before we started recording, but I'll ask dumb questions. But I don't know what Just For Fans is. I don't— JustForFans is public risky content, it says.

Yeah. OnlyFans is just like a website that you can go to and like subscribe to someone's like porn, right? JustForFans is just another website like that. Some people don't like using OnlyFans and prefer to use JustForFans. Or some people don't use either. And so they'll use a different— like there's another one called Fansly. There's a bunch of sites where you can like upload videos and sell subscriptions. So okay.

Well, let's take— we're going to take a quick look at your page. Is that right? Yeah. So you have 2 just for fans, one's for non-subscribers, one's public risky. Fansly, is that just a whole different crowd?

Yeah, it's just another website.

Okay. Pornhub, which Pornhub is blocked here in the Carolinas, by the way.

Same in Utah.

Okay. OnlyFans, we know, we, I think we all know OnlyFans at this point, right? So you must have a deal with Mr. S Leather. So—

Yep, I'm an ambassador.

Okay, ambassador. So a lot of leather, kink, fetish. Okay, here's where I paused. I grasped my pearls, clasped my pearls when I looked at this because it's sniffies plus 7-day trial, right? I don't know what Throne is, but, um, anyway, Sniffies plus 7-day free trial. So how do you— we're going to stop sharing there. So how did you get back? How do you— how did you get back on Sniffies and Grindr? And how do you interact on Sniffies especially? Um, what would— without being tempted, without being triggered, and Can you give us advice on those, those who have been without meth for a while and they want to, you know, start dipping their toe back into these apps? What are some tips and tricks for, for us?

Sure. Yeah. Um, by the way, I need to update that link. We're not doing, uh, 7-day trials. Oh, but like, darn. I am a— yeah, I am a Sniffies ambassador. Okay. And I do use the website as well. Um, I actually— it wasn't 9 months, it was 3 years I stayed off.

Whoa, 3 years! Damn.

Which, which might have— it might have been overkill, but like, here's—

No, it's— I don't think so.

Here's the tip, or the, like, the reasoning behind it, um, if I can impart anything to other people, is that like, you know, I'm getting back into sex and it's working for me, right? Like, I, I started to realize that like I have acquaintances, basically fuck buddies, that like I can hit up and like plan some sort of encounter with. Um, and like they're, they're a known variable. Like I know what kind of experience I'm gonna have with them. Um, I feel safe with them. I can trust them. Um, and so like, you know, going back to them is, is actually kind of nice versus like a hookup where it's like, I have no idea what kind of experience this is gonna be.

Right.

But like, but even still, like, Grindr's fun. Sniffies is fun. Those apps are set up to be like, to, to have us get back on there, right? To enjoy being on there.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there is a little bit of a dopamine rush that you get from, from being on those apps. And so like, of course, throughout this time, I'm like, should I get on there? But I think this is where the, the like self-honesty is so important because like in recovery, it doesn't matter what we tell other people, right? It doesn't matter what we tell our friends, our support network, our, our therapists, our whatever. Um, what's important is like, what do we tell ourselves? Like when we look in the mirror, what is the honest to God truth about like basically anything?

Yeah.

Like, it's just so important to develop this, like, honesty with oneself, um, and this willingness and ability to look at truths that I don't want to look at. Um, when, when contemplating getting back on the apps, I would say, like, am I ready for that?

Yeah.

Like, am I, am I ready for it? And he, if there was even just an ounce of doubt or fear of, like, sliding back into relapse, That was my answer. No, I'm not ready for it. You know, and, and, and also, I'm not missing out. It's not going anywhere. Even if Grindr were to disappear, another thing would like replace it, right? Someone told me this about, about the drugs too. Like, the party's not going anywhere, right? If recovery doesn't work out, you know, it'll be, it'll be there and you can pick back up where you left off.

Same people.

Should you want to. Same people doing the same thing.

That's right.

with this, with the same conflicts from 10 years ago, right?

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, so this, this, this entire time, those 3 years, I was just like, oh, like, I, I kind of want to get back on Grindr, but like, man, I just, I don't think it's the right time, you know? Like, I, I don't think that I can handle it. If someone were to hit me up and say like, hey, I have, you know, this or that, Yeah.

Yeah.

I would struggle, you know, and that's even with like years of clean time. They say that like your brain gen— you know, generally gets back to normal after about 2 years. It can differ depending on a lot of different factors. But even after 2 years, I was like, my brain should be better. And yet I just don't know if I'm up to, to the, the, the challenge.

Yeah.

Um, when the time finally did arrive, I just knew. Um, I just knew. I did that sort of like soul searching of like, am I ready for this? And it's like, yeah. And part of, part of knowing that I was ready for it was also knowing that like, I'm done. Hmm.

Yeah.

And I haven't had that awareness this entire time, right? I've almost been clean 5 years and September, and I would say those first three years, I could not tell you. Yeah, I'm done because there was there was a small tiny little you know you know teeny tiny part that was like would be nice, and as long as that was lingering in the back of my head, I just I knew like it's not a good idea, and. The other, the other thing, when I got back on Grindr, it wasn't just like download it and get back to, get back to business. It was like download it, tell the people that are in my corner about it.

Yeah.

You know, when I have some sort of experience, be committed to taking the right action, the hard action, right? To get myself to like a place of safety. If I find myself looking for the capital Ts or the diamonds or the, the, you know, the little emojis that like, you know, signal to, to us that like they're doing meth. If I find myself looking for that and focusing on that, I need to take a step back.

Yeah.

And talk to someone and be like, yo, like, this is on my mind. I like, I find myself being drawn to these profiles over and over again.

Yeah.

And I think too, um, something that like allowed me to get back on it was just like this willingness to give it up. If it, if it, if it was the case that getting on there was not a good idea.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What you're saying to me is you have the ability, and you had the ability, and you still do, obviously, to be vulnerable, to be honest. You said look at truths that you don't want to look at about yourself. I mean, those components are missing from so many the guys that I work with, um, either clients or not, is that there's something about this— I'm not them. Like, I don't need to block Grindr. I don't need to be off the apps. I can handle it, right? Such a denial there because you don't want to look bad, right? And, you know, and you, you don't want to be— you don't want to admit that you have— there's, there's this part of you that wants to use. Like you said, even after 3 years, there is still a part of— you're saying a part of you that wanted to use. You noticed it, you didn't catastrophize it, you admitted it, you showed it, you, you, um, exposed yourself to your— to the people around you. You really did this very well, by the way. You, you're really impressive to me.

Yeah, thank you. I mean, I did have a relapse. So I described the moment in February of 2019, right? Later that year, I did have a relapse. But since 2020, I've been committed to this. And interestingly enough, in 2020, when I came back from that relapse, I did not feel the need to take another break from Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, like, uh, I don't know. Um, I, I do feel really lucky. Um, but also it just goes back to— you're talking about some of your clients and, um, maybe struggling to like have this vulnerability and like not wanting to not wanting to be weak, right? Like, no one wants to be that person that can't take it.

Yeah.

That can't handle it, right? Like, no one— no one— everyone wants to be special. Everyone wants to be, um, unique or whatever. Um, but like, I firmly believe that like everyone has the capacity to do this. Um, and that it's not— it's not weakness. It's actually a strength, paradoxically, because like, how many stories do we know just like being on social media of people like, I'm gonna get off Grindr, and then the next day they're downloading it again, right?

Yes.

And those aren't even addicts, right? Those are just normal-ass people.

Oh, they're addicts.

To a different thing. Yeah, right. Fair point. Yeah, fair point. But not meth addicts, right?

Right, right.

They're just, you know, normies, I guess, if you want to call them that. But yeah, like, it's actually quite a significant strength if we're able to just like acknowledge this part of ourselves that like, and this is another thing that got me through all of this process, is that I knew that it wasn't going to be forever.

Yeah.

My mantra, anytime I was needing to do something hard, was 2 words, for now.

Yeah, love that. Love it.

For now, I need to stay off Grindr. For now, I, you know, I can't have like anonymous hookups. Um, for now, all this kind of stuff.

Yeah, perfect.

Um, and simply just repeating that was like enough to be like, okay, like I can do it now with this understanding that like sometime in the future This is no longer going to be the case.

Perfect.

And I'm happy to report that it's no longer the case, right? Like, I— when I'm on sniffies, it's almost a surprise when, like, someone who's obviously using hits me up and I'm like, it takes me like 5 seconds to catch up to that reality.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Like, oh shit. Like, yeah, I used to beeline to those profiles, right? And like, now it's like, oh shit, you are You're partying. Okay. No, right?

Like, yeah, you're misspelling words and taking 10 minutes to reply.

And we've got the purple lights and the, you know, porn playing. Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah. Interesting how that switches, huh? For now. That's, uh, that's perfect because that's what, you know, if, if you all listening, you refer back to my, um, the first episode of the season, and I talk about, you know, the 7— 7 ways— I forgot what I called— 7 Essential Techniques Blueprint for Meth-Free Living. I don't remember what I call it. But anyway, is that it's all temporary. Like, when I say deactivate social media for now, right? Like, you— if you want to— a lot of— a lot of these people have forged very deep relationships with their user buddies, you know, because, because a lot of these guys have been using for decades, right? I mean, that's their, their network, right? Well, I don't want to— I don't want to just stop talking to my friends. But it's for now, for you, for now, right? It's, it's all temporary. Uh, block the apps for now. You don't have to ever never be back on Grindr. It's just all in the mind. It's a mindful— it's a mindful practice, just like you did.

Yeah, and it's interesting you said social media. I do want to like include like, it wasn't just Grindr and, you know, Sivvies wasn't around back then. But like Scruff, like it wasn't just the gay hookup apps. I had to get rid of Facebook and Instagram.

Yep. Perfect. Perfect. You're just aligning with everything here that I— I'm so glad that you came on the podcast. Okay, so You then started— I'm sorry, I'm assuming you ventured in— into, um, your current profession. Um, let me ask this question. Is— so when you got into that, it wasn't a— by then you weren't triggered at all, I guess, by, by sex. Um, but you had discovered— you, you talked about the, the shower scene or the The sauna, the gym sauna. So did this kind of open up a world to you to say like, I like cruising kind of risky public stuff, right? That's, that's really what, what got— and you didn't do that while you're, you're using meth, or you did?

I didn't. I, I never had.

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah, people that I used with said that it was a thing that happens, but like, you know, all of us were too paranoid to leave our Right, right. Um, yeah, it was just something new and different.

Yeah. Okay, so you discovered you like that and then you started deciding to monetize it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Let me ask you this. This is not related at all to this podcast, but it's always what I wanted to know is how do you like— is Is it a mindset shift for you to have sex as a— like, I guess they call it a collab, right? A collab. And then when you have sex, like, when you're on sniffies and you want to do a hookup, or you want to have sex in a— I don't know if you're in a relationship, or if you've been in a relationship or not, or dating or whatever. Is it— what is the— how do you shift your mindset to those 2 things? Like, is there something that you do to kind of separate any emotion from it? Or do you have emotion when you're having— when you're doing paid content?

It really depends on who I'm working with, honestly. You know, some people, it's just a job, right? Okay. It's weird because like, I would say in the last year or so, I've started to feel like when I'm naked, I'm in uniform. So trippy. So trippy when you think that like when I was Mormon, I used to like put a shirt on before stepping in front of the mirror. Yeah. When I was like, after being done with my shower. Um, but, but yeah, like, um, some people I have this just like incredible connection with and it literally feels like we're just having like this extremely connective, um, sex and there happens to be a camera capturing the moment.

Okay.

With others though, it literally is just like, I am performing.

Okay.

Right. Like, I'm stepping into a role and I am getting the job done. Yeah. And sometimes you can tell.

Yeah, I was gonna say, can you tell if you watch? Yeah.

I can with other people. And like, I, like, I assume that others can too with me. You know, I'm not that great of an actor.

So do you only work with sober guys? Or I mean, because I assume I'm thinking that, that drugs is pretty prevalent in the porn industry, especially meth, but maybe not.

Yeah, it's actually, that's what I thought too. But when you think about it, in order to be successful, either on like OnlyFans or with like studio stuff, like, girl, you cannot be Fucked up, right? Because you're gonna miss deadlines, you're gonna not show up to collabs, you're gonna not show up to the studio shoots, you're gonna ghost people, you're gonna disappear, you're gonna reappear, you're gonna be like overly apologetic and like kind of effusive about how much everyone means to you, and then you're just gonna abandon them for whatever reason because you get high. You're gonna book a flight to go on this like collab trip, and then you're just not even gonna get on the flight.

Right.

And so like, there are people do drugs and some of them do meth, but like for the most part, like in order to be successful, you can't—

Okay.

Not have your shit together. Like mostly people will maybe like take an edible before we start or they'll do a dose of G.

Okay.

Or maybe like a hit of ketamine. But like, going back to the, like, we can tell, we people can tell when someone's fucked up in a video. And Twitter is ruthless in terms of like, when you're fucked up, people will let you know. So like, you know, when people— I've seen guys get kind of like torn to pieces by the Twitter mob because they're like, why are your eyes all fucked up? Or like, why are you so jittery or whatever?

Huh.

So it's not as prevalent as you might, you might imagine, but it does happen. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was curious about that and how you would, you know, how you would use without. So it doesn't tempt you, I guess, if you see somebody doing a bump of ketamine or G or something like that, it doesn't at this point?

Um, it tempts me like way less often than it used to.

Okay.

And, um, I think that like for any of these endeavors, it's really useful to have a mentor, um, someone who is, is doing the thing that you want to be doing yourself that has already successfully navigated these crazy waters. And so like in this situation, I actually have a mentor of someone who used to do math. It's no— hasn't done it for like 17, 18 years now, is working in porn, is an escort, like, is, is doing the things. And I, I ask him, how do I fucking do this? Yeah, I, when I'm going into a potentially kind of like hairy situation, I let him know beforehand.

Okay.

And, you know, ask if he'll be available in case like something happens. And if he's not, I have multiple people that like I I can reach out to. And it's, it's happened. I have showed up to a shoot and the dude was talking 1,000 miles an hour, the camera guy. And like, they're like wanting me to suck his dick, but he can't get hard to save his life. And like, we go into this bedroom and I look up in the closet and there's a bong and he like gets up and like shuts it. And I ask him if he's using and he's like, no. I'm just like, girl. And I needed to like bail and I was feeling crazy because it's like, oh my God, the drugs are right there. Right. I called my mentor and I was like, this just happened and like, this is what I'm doing now. And will you stay on the phone with me until I get back to the hotel?

Yeah.

All this kind of stuff. You know, you might have seen some like viral posts go around on social media that like connection is the opposite of addiction.

Yes.

And as, as pithy as that might be, like, I, I, that being able to lean on other people has been like a, a, a huge part of my ability to do all of this.

Yeah, great, great. You mentioned off camera that you use poppers though. Is that right?

Yes.

I think you and I share a similar view on poppers. But where do you— where does that come down for you in terms of, is this poppers just not something that triggers you at all?

Yeah, great question. I feel like some of the 12-step boys are gonna eviscerate me, but, um, they might, right? And like, here's the thing, like, a lot of people cannot do poppers. Yep. In recovery.

Yeah.

Because there's, there's such a close association to everything that we did in addiction that like, it's just, it's impossible for them to do it and like not eventually go back to these behaviors that they want, that they wanted to leave behind.

Mm-hmm.

You know, a lot of guys when they're using poppers, it's like huff, huff, huff, huff, huff until like you're blue in the lips and, you know, can't talk and all this kind of stuff, right? And it's like, for those people whose relationship with poppers is like that, probably not a good idea.

Right.

And like, if you're— if that was you and you're curious, is it something that you want to risk? This is the kind of conversation that I have with people that ask me about it.

That's right. That's right.

But for me, I never used poppers, like hardly ever. I didn't have my own. I, I didn't have my own bottle until actually in recovery. Like, I never bought my own poppers until like getting clean.

Hmm.

Um, like, if they were there and someone was like, here, do you wanna hit? I could be like, no, not really. Or like, sure, why not? And that's, that's kind of, that's my relationship with them now.

Hmm.

Um, I, when I'm having sex, I don't use them. When I'm getting fisted, um, I use them sometimes, right?

Understandably so.

Right? I'm not, I'm not seeking situations where I can do poppers. My bottles go bad and they're still full. Like, that's how sparingly I use them. Okay. And so like, for me, they're just I have more of a problematic relationship with nicotine than I do with poppers, right? In terms of like how I will literally only have a relationship with people because I know that they have a vape. And I'll go up and talk to them and be like, how are— how have you been? What up? You know, what's up? And then be like, can I like, you know? And that for me is more like problematic than—

Yeah. Right.

Than what I do with poppers.

Yeah.

But like, I, I'm not the template. Like, that's the thing. I— a good majority of the mathematics that I know cannot do that. And so like, I hope that no one construes me to say like, Jason Parker says I can do poppers, right? Because Jason Parker did not say that.

That's right. Jason Parker said, you empower yourself to make the best decision for you. And that's what it's all about, right? That's what your whole story is about right here, is empowerment, right? So it really goes— it really goes hand in hand. Using poppers really goes hand in hand because you empower yourself. Plus, you know yourself, you know, like you said, you're not— you're not making yourself cross-eyed with them like— like some people do. So—

And it goes back to that honesty piece, right? Like that ability to be honest with myself and confront a reality that, like, I don't want to, right? Like I had to ask the question, what if I can't do poppers? And I had to look and I had to ask that question, can I? And was I willing to do what was needed if the answer was no? Like, was I willing to give them up if that's what it takes, right? Like, if that's what it takes to remain sober, am I willing to do that? And like, the reality is absolutely.

Yeah.

If the answer was no, then like, that's a pretty good fucking indicator that like, can't do it, right? Like, yeah. If this, if this is precious to me and it's going to be really hard for me to give up, then like, that's something to look at. Whereas like, when I was looking at it, it's like, don't have to do poppers. It's like, okay, like, sure, I could do that. Yeah, fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I want to talk before we go about a conference That this is how we met, right? Someone connected us about a conference that you're putting on, and it's through the— it's through CMA, right? Or at least 12-step traditions, right? But it's all about sober sex. It's all about sexual liberation, right? Can you tell us about it?

Yes. Yeah, so it is not affiliated with any 12-step group. Okay. But it is— it is like all of our programming is based on 12-step principles. Okay, gotcha. Um, you know, so like the workshop, the language that we use during like the workshops and the activity is going to be firmly grounded in like the 12-step traditions. Okay. Um, but it is open to like anyone who is seeking—

Sure.

A new relationship with sex, intimacy, and recovery. Okay, sorry, sex, intimacy, and relationships in recovery. Okay. Um, it's taking place this year, August 7th through 10th.

Okay.

Registration is open now. I don't know when this episode is going to air, but like early registration is going to be ending here pretty soon at the end of May.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And registration is $850, which is a pretty big price tag, but it, it includes room and board.

Oh, okay.

You know, and participation in like all of the activities. So that's 3 nights, 9 meals. And when you look at similar— the whole impetus for why we're doing this is that there are other similar conferences.

Sure.

And they generally, when you add everything up, cost about anywhere from $700 to $1,500. But none of them directly address these issues. Yeah, there might be one workshop on sex and recovery. I actually facilitated a workshop on sex and recovery, and I had one hour to talk about this very complex thing.

Yeah.

Not enough. And, and like, me and, and some of my, um, support network were like, we should— like, we could do an entire weekend on this stuff. Um, and so that's, that's what we're doing. So it's called Pepper Diet Academy. If you want more information, you can go to pepperdietacademy.org. It has information on—

What does that mean? What does Pepper Diet Academy mean?

That's taken from the Alcoholics Anonymous literature. Okay, when talking about sex, it was basically saying like, we don't, we don't make a prescription on like what your sex life needs to look like. Oh, some people Only have salt for their— it's this 1930s language. Some people only have salt for their fare and others recommend a straight pepper diet.

Okay. So pepper diet again.

But we're gonna have just like a couple of information, like we're gonna have the workshops that address things like how do we get back on the apps in regards to how do we navigate those spaces? Nice. You know, how do we engage in open relationships or polyamory? polyamory, how do— like kink, like how do we, how do we, how do we get back into kink? How do we discover kink for the first time? But then also we're going to have activities like a naked pool party. Some of our workshops are going to be clothing optional. Wow. Probably going to have a sex party at the end of like the end of the retreat. Like, I want to go.

Okay. Okay. Like an orgy? Is this an— okay. All right. Gotcha. Interesting. Interesting. Wow. Wow.

The advice that I've gotten about sex and recovery is that the only way to have sex and recovery is to have sex. That's right. And like, we want to create a safe space. Yeah. With like-minded people where people can, can engage with this stuff. And, you know, it's up in the mountains. There's no, there's no chance that you're gonna like get triggered and like drive 3 hours a week, right?

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, what a way to, um, dive in, right? If you wanna— you're trying to discover sex again, just what a way to dive in. Just, uh, go to this conference. Clothing optional workshops, naked sex pool, sex party at the end. And I think you said there was like a dark room too, right? Or something. Is there?

That's what we're That's what we're envisioning setting up. This is our first year. And so, you know, we're still kind of working out how everything in the program is gonna go. But like, I am wanting to have a sex, like a darkroom tent that people can go to in the evenings if they choose. And if they don't want to, then they don't have to.

Right? Yeah, this seems like a lot of monitoring is going to be required. Is it? Am I wrong?

Like, no, the way that, the way that we're setting up these, some of these sexual, um, and, and like, um, like really vulnerable experiences is we're gonna have like consent angels who are gonna be monitoring for like every— to make sure that everything's happening with consent.

Yes. Okay, great.

If someone's, if someone's feeling some sort of way, they can go to these people and talk about it. Yeah. And we're running the like the sex party, for example, with like a dungeon master. Okay. And he's gonna have volunteers that are like, that are like formally trained in like, how do we maintain safety? How do we maintain consent? So like a little bit of monitoring, but like from people that are—

Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Orgy angels.

Orgy angels.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it. Um, okay, Jason, what did I miss? What did you— what did I not talk about or mention that you wish I had of?

Um, I think that the only thing that I really want to emphasize and stress is that like this process and this journey is not a straight line.

Mm-hmm.

And it's not a fairy tale. It's not like one day you're just going to wake up and everything about you is going to be fixed. That's what we were looking for in the drug. And so having some patience and grace for yourself when things don't go your way, Like, that has to be okay. It can't— we can no longer afford it to not be okay.

Mm-hmm.

We have to, we have to find peace with the, like, inconsistent progress that we make.

Mm-hmm.

And so when it comes to sex, like, and I'm sure you've talked about this a lot over, like, many episodes. Like, some of the struggles that I, that I had was like, I would come before I even put my dick inside someone.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

Um, and that worried me.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's kind of one of the reasons that I use meth, because I could let go forever.

Right.

But, but that went away after a while, after some really embarrassing, you know, situations. You know, there, there was, there were just so many— sex is not— and it's interesting that this is coming from someone that works in porn, but sex shouldn't look like a porn scenario. It shouldn't.

Yeah.

Like, it really shouldn't. It, it needs to be silly. Like, there needs to be laughter. There needs to be like awkwardness. Like, it needs to not go the way that you thought it was gonna go. And like, that's okay. It doesn't mean that anything's wrong. It doesn't mean that like you're, you know, you're unworthy or whatever. This is like, that's fucking life. Like, that's how it goes.

Yeah. Yeah.

And when, when I can look at the reality of human sexuality, I appreciate it so much more. And like, this is the like shift that happened in my mind. Because like, I think when we talk about like sensory experience, I am never gonna have the same sort of sensory experience that I had on meth while having sex.

That's right.

Right. But I appreciate the sex that I do have so much more. And I, and I could never have arrived at this appreciation under the like mental and emotional circumstances that I was in when I was fucked up.

Mm-hmm.

And like, that makes it not just worth it, but just like so much better. When, when people in recovery say that sex in sober sex is better, they're not talking about the sensory, the physical sensation. They're talking about the gratifying experience that you get when you engage in sex. Yeah. It's just, it does not compare. So, you know, those were just a couple of last things that I really hope people understand.

That's important. That's important. Thank you. I think you're one of the most grounded men I've ever met. So I really appreciate this conversation, which is, which is really, which is funny to me, because I just have this like preconceived notion about porn stars, you know. I don't know, I've never met like a star, you know. I mean, I've— I don't, I don't know, I've never even met like a, a creator that has a lot of followers really. Um, but you know, you just kind of get this idea because you— sometimes I see them, um, interviewed. What are the awards? Grabbies or something?

There's a couple others. Yeah, there's the Gavians, there's the Grabbies.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then sometimes, like, I made the mistake fucking once. So when I go to my TikTok to look at my engagement, I have to watch— like, a TikTok pops up. Well, I made the mistake of clicking on one of those content people, um, one of those younger guys that's popular. I don't know, he won something. It was a— it was an interview. Well, I watched it And then I started scrolling and all of a sudden now it's like, it's like full of these interviews from the, these awards anyway. Um, but I listened to some of these awards, I'm like, these people have no substance, you know. What is it like, you know, what is it like to blah blah blah, you know. So I, I, I really appreciate this conversation because you've helped me expand and be more inclusive and open my mind up. Um, and I just love this conference. I love what you're doing. I really love it because it is so needed in this community. That is the biggest, the biggest hurdle we have, the, the most inhibiting, most saddening situations is that the sex is this rebuilding the sex and, and trying to, like you said, change your relationship with it and coming back to it. So I really appreciate what you're doing.

Yeah. Yeah, thank you. And thanks for giving me the time to come on here and talk a little bit about my story, but also talk about the conference because it is something, like I said, like, one, I'm not unique. Like, this life is not just available to me because of the circum— like, you know, the circumstances of my life. Like, I am not, I'm not special. What I have is available to everyone.

Mm-hmm.

And like, I feel privileged to have discovered that and I, and It's something that I want to give to other people. And so like, that's why, that's why we're doing this thing. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So check us out.

Great. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to put all your— we'll get all the links from you. We'll put everything in the show notes. The, the, this will probably air sometime near the end of June, I would say something like that. Okay, cool. But plenty of time to, plenty of time to register. So yeah. Great. All right, guys. Hope you enjoyed that episode. If you want more of this, let me know. If you If want you want to join the conversation, you can comment on YouTube or Spotify, and we will see you next week.

Bye.