EP 2:43 Mindful Masturbation for Chemsex Recovery with Kevin

let me just get curious about what pleasure feels like in my body. You know, we then get to just start noticing things, you know, so you might notice like your feet are extra sensitive or that, you know, maybe, maybe your nipples are more sensitive than you thought, or maybe things that you thought were sensitive aren't. But we're just kind of exploring. And then as you, as you go about that, like just—

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, We will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go.

All right. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Today is an episode you'll want to take notes on, and it might be visual too. Who knows? We might, we might masturbate together today. I don't know. But we are talking about mindful masturbation. This is a topic that if you listen to the podcast, you've heard me talk about a lot. If you're a client of mine, you hear me talk about a lot. Anyone who has been in the meth, the chemsex scene, when they're coming out— so a lot of times quitting the meth can be the easy part.

Mm-hmm.

Then you're faced with all the emotions, all the trauma, all the shit, everything that, that you've been suppressing and numbing. all comes up. You have to deal with that. And most of us who come out of it have been traumatized sexually. We've either been taken advantage of with GHB or we've been, you know, we've, people have done things to us that we didn't want them to. You know, we discussed on here before that rape can be oral too. Oral sex can be rape. We've done things to people that we're not proud of doing either, because we get into this chemical hijacking and we become predatory, we become transactional, and just— it's the nature of it. So coming out of it, some men take a while to get their libido back, some men take a while to get an erection back, and then some men are just so convinced that sober sex is boring, that it's vanilla. I'll never be able to do it. I'm never going to like it. Right. And there's, there seems to be a gap in research and gap in resources in how the hell do I integrate sexually, enjoy sex again. And of course, we have to untangle meth and sex from our brain because we get horny. We want to use meth because meth and sex go hand in hand. Anybody who's been on the podcast and anywhere you read about sexual reintegration, one of the first suggestions is going to be mindful masturbation. And so there is also a lack that I can find of really specifically what does mindful masturbation mean? What is this?

What do I do?

And how does it benefit me? So I wanted to bring on a return guest. He's— you were on this season too, Coach Kevin, who's now the Pleasure Priest, who is really doing just a super job. And Kevin, I haven't seen a lot of people really talking about this. I Sorry, are you hearing that feedback or anything?

Nope, everything sounds good on my end.

Okay, okay. Here we go. It's calming down. I don't know what that was. It felt like it was a plane flying over my head, in my head. Anyway, Kevin, you're doing such a great job, in my opinion, of bringing to the forefront self-pleasure and trying to really explain that and demonstrating it. Too. By the way, I took a peek at your OnlyFans today. Oh, thank you. I have to see this. And I don't, I don't, I don't know. That's, I think that may have been the first OnlyFans I've ever subscribed to.

Oh, thank you. Oh, I'm honored.

Yeah, it was just, I was thinking, you know, everything can be used consciously, whether it be Grindr, whether it be OnlyFans, whether it be pornography. You know, and so if somebody's out there offering this type of intimacy modeling and self-pleasure on OnlyFans, why not, why not I log in and get a, get a peek view. So anyway, it's time to introduce you, Coach Kevin Martin, the Pleasure Priest. Thank you for coming back.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm so excited and just so stoked to have this conversation too. You know, like you were saying, it's one that's, you So important for so many people. But yeah, it is underdiscussed and tricky to talk about online anyway, where, you know, so much gets moderated. And, you know, just talking about anything intimacy-related or sex-related now, like, we just, we just can't break through that barrier, you know, with a lot of like social media. And so having the conversations has become even more increasingly difficult. So, you know, creating spaces like this to do it is, you know, even more necessary than it already was before. So yeah, yeah, thank you for having me. I'm so stoked.

Good. Yeah, yeah. You know, AI, well, through Meta, has determined that I'm selling drugs. Through my website. Because it's picking up on, I guess, you know, when I say crystal meth or whatever. So I've been sanctioned on Facebook right now. I can't post in my own Aftermath group. And then I can't go live on Instagram. Like, I have all these lockdowns as they review things. So I can relate to being sanctioned and monitored. And all you're trying to do is help. All you're trying to do is help. So they just, an AI bot is not going to be able to understand that.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, you know, like the first time we spoke, we were talking about shame and like, to me, that's such a, such a clear example of what shame does and how it can show up, you know, because when that happens, you know, then we start taking this message of like, well, shit, like, am I doing something bad? Like, am I, you know, like not following the rules or whatever that is, or just even having that feeling of like doing something wrong can activate, you know, so many things inside. But even more than that, like the bigger picture that's being sent of, you know, like sex is a bad thing to talk about, you know, recovery is a bad thing to talk about, you know.

Yeah.

We subconsciously start to store that and like other people are storing that too. And so like All of the work that we've been doing just kind of creates this or hits another barrier and it's so fucking irritating and frustrating. But, you know, that's where like our queer resilience really kicks in and we're like, okay, you know, this is a really irritating and annoying barrier and how can we work around it? Like, what are the other avenues that we have? And so I've really been inspired by you too and just the work that you do and the perseverance that you have. It's, it's amazing. And we all need it.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Um, and if you're listening, I forgot to mention there is a supplemental study guide that will go along with this. I'm sure there'll be instructions on mindful masturbation in there. Um, if you're interested, the link is in the show notes. You can also get the link, the full study guide in your inbox if you go to my website, drdallasbragg.com, go to blog. Subscribe. All right. So what we know about masturbation, right, coming out of— and of course I'm going to come at this from a meth user point of view or chemsex user point of view. But this I think is true for all men, right? Is that what we know about masturbation is pull the phone out, bring up Pornhub if it's allowed in your state, not in mine. whatever you got, right? Um, and rub one out as fast as you can, right? Maybe first thing in the morning, before you go to bed, or both. So tell me, is there, is there something unhealthy about that if that's your way? And how do I go from that if I've been doing that all my life, right? How do I go from that to mindfully?

Masturbating. Yeah.

And what is, and what is mindful masturbation 101? What is it?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So mindful masturbation, use the word conscious earlier, and it's bringing consciousness into our masturbation practice. And so at the core of it, at the heart of it, in the most simple of terms, it's being intentional with our reason why we're doing this right now. A lot of times, you know, and exactly as you were describing, like, you know, jacking off does become something that's automatic, or we have our routines. You know, we have our rituals. We, you know, it can be something that's, you know, yeah, part of our getting ready routine, or, you know, something we use to, you know, stimulate throughout the day, or, you know, relieve stress throughout the day, or help us to go to sleep. And Objectively, like, you know, on the whole, kind of like a blanket statement, like, that's not bad. I think like it can be tricky to use the words healthy and unhealthy in such large terms. So I like to use the phrasing of like helpful versus unhelpful.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

You said that last time.

Yeah. And I think like, you know, it's It's a really great example too, where like, you know, in some instances, you know, having that routine might be helpful for why you want to jack off now, but it might also be helpful in some other ways that are playing behind the scenes that we might not have checked in with yet, you know. So it's interesting because something as seemingly simple as jacking off can end up becoming really layered and complicated, but beautiful too. But it's all about just tuning into, you know, why am I doing this right now? What am I needing? What am I craving? What am I asking for? And like just getting super, super fucking clear with ourselves on that reason why and whatever that why is. We don't want to judge it. Like, it's neither good nor bad. It's just information, you know. And so maybe, maybe today, like, I'm just super fucking horny and I want to jack off because I need to, you know, just have that physiological release. And it's so perfect. Like, that's, that's my intention for today. You know, maybe 2 hours from now, you know, I have an email come through and it really activates me and it makes me really nervous. And I just have to regulate my system. And that's a— way that I can do that, you know. So my reason why at that time will be a little bit different. But as long as I'm in tuned with, you know, what am I, what am I needing from my own self right now? Why, why am I doing this? Making that alignment, the, the deeper that that practice becomes, but then also the more clearer that we become with our own self too.

Okay. Okay.

Okay.

I mean, what, I mean, I can hear the listeners probably saying like, well, I jack off because I'm horny. What other reasons would there be? What other intentions would I be setting?

Yeah, totally. Yeah. That's a big one. You know, sometimes we are just horny and, you know, just gotta be just got to get off. You know, sometimes, yeah, we might be, we might be stressed, we might need a bit of like that emotional regulation. It can be very similar to how, you know, exercise can be emotionally regulating, or sleep can be emotionally regulating. You know, it's a, it's an act of the physical body that can just help to kind of recalibrate our, our system. Masturbation can also be a way for us to explore and learn about our own selves. And so You know, maybe we are getting interested or curious about some kinks or some fantasies. You know, we can use that as a tool to explore that. It could be a tool to explore deeper connections with, with partners, or even just emotional connection on its own self. You know, even if, you know, it's, it's through Bait World or, you know, something online, like, that's still a way that we get to connect with another human or multiple humans, you know, at that point in time. It can be, yeah, soothing. Sometimes we do need a bit of an escape, and sometimes it could be a helpful escape if we've, you know, kind of checked in that that's our need at the moment. So it can hold a lot of different buckets and spaces. Where, where sometimes it can get a little tricky, not so much in the moment, but a little bit further on, is if we aren't like fully in tune with our intention at that time, and we're, we're using masturbation to, to work through something else that we haven't touched in on. And again, like, not that that's necessarily bad, but we just want to get curious about it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. So if I'm masturbating, you said a healthy, helpful escape, I guess. And when is it unhelpful to be escaping through masturbation?

I think, you know, it starts to become unhelpful if We're using it as a way to detach from, like, the elephant in the room, you know.

Okay.

You know, maybe, maybe we, you know, are having an issue in our relationship, you know, and it's just easier for us to jerk off as opposed to talking about why we can't have intimacy with our partner, you know. Even in that example, like jacking off could help to bring clarity on what we need in that conversation. But if it becomes a pattern, then it might be something like, okay, you know, let's take a, let's take a deeper look here. You know, this might be, this might be an escape from something that, you know, we might want to take a deeper look at. And that's where the, again, like the mindfulness component of it and the intentionality comes in where if we're asking ourselves why, like every single time, we start to develop that deeper level of self-awareness, which helps us to see the nuances there. You know, there's, there's a lot of times where like my, my jacking off routine, like it, I, you know, preach mindful masturbation and mine looks very The exact same every day. You know, I watch the same videos, I use the same, you know, lube. I do it right before I go to bed, it helps me to go to sleep. And there's a lot of times where, you know, even when I'm doing that, and even though it looks the same, I'm like, okay, this is still why I'm, you know, what I'm needing right now. Sometimes though, like, I'll notice like, oh shit, you know, I really have to have this conversation with somebody, but It's just easier for me to do this. And so let me explore what's going on here because I'm finding that this isn't helping me as much. But realizing that for our own self can be kind of tricky. But just like any mindful practice or any meditation practice, the more that we do it, the more we understand it. So we can kind of apply like that same principle here. And literally as simple as, you know, before you grab the boob, you know, just asking, you know, what is it that I'm, that I'm needing right now? Why, why am I, why am I jacking off today?

Mm-hmm. So as with meditation, as with journaling, as with maybe even yoga, it's a practice, right? And so If you are, if you're, so that for the listeners, you may begin this process by asking yourself, why am I doing this? And at first the same answer may come up. I'm horny, right? But I think like you're saying, keep asking yourself that and, and be open to another explanation. And, and eventually you are going to get different answers, I believe.

Yeah, totally.

Right.

Totally.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. And yeah, and if, if that question is one that we might be struggling with where we might be having like the same answer all the time, you know, asking ourselves instead of like, you know, what am I needing right now?

Yeah.

You know, am I needing, you know, yeah, I might be needing a release, but what type of a release, you know, is this, you know, just because I'm You know, a 12 out of 10 on the horniness scale right now? Or is it because, you know, I'm grieving something and I don't know how else to do that, or I don't know how to say that? You know, like, it can actually be a bit nerve-wracking and scary to ask ourselves some of these questions. Because once we start to see what's underneath, it can start to, you know, bring a lot of things up to the surface. So, you know, this might sound kind of silly to say, but it's incredibly accurate and true. But, you know, doing a mindful masturbation practice and making that a part of your routine is actually a really brave and courageous thing to do because we don't know what's going to pop up underneath. For me, it's brought up so much grief. I was working with a client yesterday who, the more that they've explored this, they realized, like, some childhood wounds from 40 years ago that they've never ever addressed. And, you know, they were, as soon as they came, you know, they were just laying in their cum and like they started bawling because all of this popped up in that moment. And so it's interesting and it's fascinating how this can be a tool for that deeper inner work. And so, like, Even though we're, you know, we're talking about jacking off with the, which again, we often think is, you know, just very simple. Like there's a lot of layers to it. And so it can be a pretty profound, profound practice.

Oh, wow. So, okay. If I'm, I'm a client and I came to you and I want to, I want to find out what's my arousal template. Naturally, what, and what was scrambled with meth, right? What was a chemically hijacked arousal, right? And so that's my goal at first, but also I also want to get in touch with my, my body and being gentle. So in, I will say you mentioned watching videos. I will say that for those of you coming out of meth use. I recommend no, no porn when you're doing this. So what are the steps? I, you know, I come, you know, I get my lube, I get my, you know, I light my candles, whatever else you want to do, right? Rose petals, I don't know. But right, or put my leather harness on, whatever it is, right? And I ask, what am I needing right now?

Mm-hmm.

What are the other steps? Like what if I were, you know, if you were to write a step-by-step for a client, what would you say to me?

Yeah, absolutely. The very first thing that I would coach you on is to create like a self-pleasure date. So here, like literally in your calendar, you know, and then I tell people to do this of like, you know, when we're in sessions, pull your calendar up, you know, find an open time block in some point of this week and you're going to schedule this in here.

2 hours.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, as long as you want. A lot of times I say about like 30 minutes is pretty good, especially if, you know, this is something new that we're entering into, or if we can already feel some emotions bubbling up, you know, 30 minutes is good. But yeah, an hour, 2 hours, I fucking love it. You know, as much time as you need and as you want. But like, Build that block in there. And okay, the entire intention of this time is on the word pleasure. And so I, as we create that time, so say that's, you know, 8 PM on Friday from 8 to 8:30 PM this Friday, I have my self-pleasure date.

Okay.

Ahead of time, we're already going to start to frame how can we create that container Where as soon as 8:01 hits, we can step into this space that we have cultivated for our own self. So it looks like building that environment in the first place. And so you mentioned candles. I fucking love it. And here, like, we get super, super specific. So what's the lighting going to look like? What's the ambiance? What music are we going to have playing?

Mm-hmm.

Are there going to be candles or incense? What are the scents here? We— what are we going to be wearing? And all of these, like, fine details, we want to look at it from a filter of pleasure. So that's the— that's going to be the keyword of that entire exercise. And so I want it to be something as intentional as, you know, okay, it's Friday at 7:30, and I'm getting ready for this. Like, what's bringing me pleasure right now? You know, this candle, that's a very masculine scent, you know, that just, that smells really good to me in the moment. So I'm going to like that. You know, I, I love my pop music, but right now I'm really feeling jazzy. And so tonight, like jazz is bringing me pleasure. So that's what I'm going to play.

Hmm.

I have, I have this whole, you know, I have this collection of underwear and harnesses. But right now what's feeling really fucking pleasurable is a singlet that I have from my wrestling days. So I'm going to put that on. So we're getting super intentional and conscious, which conscious there means we're just choosing. We're making an active choice of creating and stimulating that environment again. So when 801 hits, we can kind of step into that. What we also want to limit is you want to limit as many distractions as possible.

Sure.

So I love What you mentioned of, you know, no, no porn during this time. And I completely agree, you know, in this, in this self-pleasure container, turn your phone off. Like, don't just put on do not disturb, literally turn it off. You know, turn off your computers, like remove all your devices. Like, this is a time solely for you where you need to get really selfish and like nobody can bother you during this time. Like, this is yours. And like, That intention is really helpful too, because behind the scenes back here, we're helping ourselves to see and to notice, to say that my pleasure is okay, my pleasure is allowed. It's something I can prioritize for myself. So once we have all of that set, you know, when 8:01 hits, we just start exploring from that word pleasure. So here, the goal isn't to come, the goal isn't to get off, it's not to, you know, it's not necessarily to masturbate. But if any of that happens, that's amazing. But we don't want to walk into it, you know, going like, okay, this is my, this is my jack-off time. You know, we can do that later. But for this exercise, we just want to notice what pleasure feels like. And so I literally, you know, have people You know, take off your clothes however feels most comfortable in that moment. Sometimes clothes feel more comfortable right then, and if so, great. But start, you know, just by like taking your fingertips and like just rolling across your body, like as slowly as you can, as gentle of a touch, and just notice like that sensation. So even like as I do this with my arms, you know, I have pretty like hairy arms. And so like as I do that, I notice Like a very— I noticed that light touch, but like, there's like a tingling sensation that goes through, and that just feels good. Like, that feels pleasurable. It's not painful, and it's not necessarily like erotic, but it's just pleasure-based. Like, it feels nice. You know, then go up to like your upper arms. Like, okay, yeah, that also feels nice. You know, go to your chest, to your, you know, to your neck, to your head, like all these other areas. You know, go down to your cock, you know, go to your balls, go to your butt, go to all parts of your body. But just take your time there and just notice for your own self what your own touch can feel like. Really, this is that a lot of the times we, we haven't given ourselves this space. And so, you know, we might be decades into our jacking off world, but we don't even know that, oh shit, when I rub my inner thighs, like, that's actually a really sensitive area. I was doing this with a porn star a couple weeks ago, and he, he said something very similar, like, on his legs. He's like, holy shit, like, I've never noticed that sensation before. But when we slow down and come at it from that approach of, let me just get curious about what pleasure feels like in my body. You know, we then get to just start noticing things, you know, so you might notice like your feet are extra sensitive, or that, you know, maybe, maybe your nipples are more sensitive than you thought, or maybe things that you thought were sensitive aren't.

Mm-hmm.

But we're just kind of exploring. And then like, as you, as you go about that, like, just, just take your time. Again, remove any expectation of this needing to go anywhere. But also follow the lead of your body too. And so, you know, if, if rubbing your legs is, you know, just very pleasurable, and it feels really good, keep going, just enjoy that, like, let this be a time that you can just enjoy. You know, if, if as you're going through and you're playing with your hole, and like, that feels really good, do that. Just like, let this be a time where you are leading from a pleasure perspective. The psychology behind this is that like every single thing that we're doing here, we are essentially saying back to ourselves like, this is safe, this is allowed. Like, I have permission, I have permission to, to explore, to feel good, to feel pleasure.

It—

I I can't really articulate how, how, like, for, I'd say at least 80% of my clients, this is the thing that, that clicks it in for them. Like, the only thing that they need is they need somebody to tell them, like, you have permission, you have permission to touch your body, and you have permission to feel good. As soon as they can say that for themselves, they're like, hey, I'm totally good. Like, I feel— Like, like my life kind of changed. It's, it's really, really interesting. So like, pleasure is, is like wildly important. And, and like, what is so good about this exercise is that like, because there's no agenda to it, Mm-hmm. the focus then centers back in on, you know, just sensation itself, you know, like tapping back into the 5 senses, which then heightens pleasure in its own right anyway. And so that's the, that's the exercise that I always, you know, recommend to people to begin with is to create that, that self, that self-pleasure date. And then again, if it goes, you know, to jacking off, fuck yeah, enjoy it. But as soon as you do, you know, maybe you're 10 minutes in and you come, like, Don't clean up. Still take that entire 30 minutes. Like, let yourself, like, let your body, like, be in your own cum and just continue that exercise. Like, continue noticing that sensation. This way too, like, we're not— we're starting to teach ourselves that, like, pleasure isn't goal-based. It's not It doesn't have— it doesn't follow a formula. And it can continue for as long as I need it to, if that makes sense.

Hmm.

It doesn't— it doesn't have to stop once you ejaculate, right?

Yeah, right.

Which is the, you know, our knee-jerk reaction. Just grab a towel quickly. Get it? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so giving yourself permission to feel pleasure sounds like to me there's a worthiness problem. You don't feel worthy of pleasure. Is that accurate?

Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And a lot of times, like, especially for those who, you know, are coming out of religion or, you know, out of a lot of like shame-based environments, like judgment, like criticism-based environments, the self-permission for pleasure is really, really difficult because it seems it's been taught that that's selfish. You know, it's been taught that, you know, we're not supposed to feel good. Been taught that, you know, feeling good or feeling pleasure is taking away from somebody else. And so there's a lot of like unhelpfully wired messaging about pleasure that we're holding on to, which can absolutely lead us to feeling like unworthy of it. Or, you know, that, that I don't deserve this, it's bad that I do this. But this is where like role modeling gets to be really helpful, where, you know, if we, if we see someone else explore what pleasure looks like for them and help to create that, that space, you know, then maybe I can do that for, for me too, you know, because if at one point if I learned that it was bad, That's something again that I learned. So I can also learn that it can be good, that it can be helpful. And so like surrounding ourselves with a lot of like positive resources, you know, other people who, who are, you know, pleasure celebratory, or, you know, even if we can have like accountability buddies, like with like jacking off routines, like that can be really really helpful because it builds that community, also builds that safety and that reminder of that message that this is okay.

Hmm. Are there videos? Are there, I mean, are there pornography videos online? I mean, I guess there is of people. Well, I mean, yeah, of course there's videos of guys jacking off, but I mean, consciously, like, are there videos you could watch that are Mindful masturbation type pornography?

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, there's starting to become some really great resources that are, that are coming out there. Um, uh, the intention behind like my content creation is to create some of those resources. Um, uh, on that, um, there's a gentleman named Powers of Man. Uh, he goes by Powers of Man on, uh, OnlyFans, JustForFans. the social media is like, he's really incredible. Um, he's— he does a lot of like erotic, um, uh, and like tantric edging work, a lot of like mindful masturbation work. Um, he'll lead, you know, like workshops that, that helps to, you know, teach this in person, which is beautiful and it's incredible. Um, he's created, uh, what he calls the Deep Stroke Sequence.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, it's 12 different ways of stroking your cock. And each one helps to like pull you mentally in to notice like how one way feels different from the next. But then you can, you can pull that into your routine of, you know, exploring like, oh, you know, yesterday this one felt really good, but now this one feels good today, you know? And so it's a, it's another great tool. So yeah, he's a resource. And like, I do think we're kind of at the beginning of this, this movement a little bit of, of bringing, you know, safe and mindful, connective pleasure, you know, up to the conversation. So it'll be really exciting and interesting to see, like, what additional resources, you know, get created over the years. And yeah, I think like that's one of the benefits of, you know, creator-based content is that, you know, people are really tapping into the mindful side of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's a whole thing now. I mean, you know, I've kind of returned back to what I did for a bit, the apps and, you know, dating and talking to guys sexually and all this stuff. Baiter, like there's this whole like baiters and gooning, right? And I was like, I was, I had no idea what, what are you talking about? You know, a baiter. I get it now, right? And gooning, right? It's like this whole thing, which is, you know, I mean, when we're, when we're on meth, a lot of what we're doing is gooning. Like we're edging and gooning because, but that's because we can't come. If you're on meth, you can't come pretty, you know, it's got it. You got to wait till the comedown pretty much.

Mm-hmm.

So I mean, I think that's also a part of this, but okay. So Powers of Man deep stroke sequence would be something to look at if you're listening. Coach Kevin's Pleasure Priest OnlyFans. I noticed, so on your OnlyFans, you are, you're masturbating. Well, you have a weekly naked guided meditation on there, right?

Yeah.

Which is interesting. But the, the, when you masturbate, it's with, it looked like I didn't, I didn't read a lot of the captions. I just did this like 30 minutes before we got on here.

You're good.

I'm sure I, but, but anyway, when you're masturbating on there, you are setting an intention for it too. It looked like, right? It didn't just say like, watch me get off. You know, it was something like, it was a full long explanation there.

Yeah. And I try to be very mindful just in the creation of the content itself where sometimes there are specific ideas I have of like, oh, I want to talk about this or I want to teach on this. But a lot of times it's just authentically reflective of my actual experience that I then share kind of the psychology behind it. So, um, uh, you know, like scrolling back, like there's, there's quite a few videos where, um, uh, you know, I was just, you know, filming just— and essentially like I was just filming, you know, just a jack-off scene, uh, just all of it. Um, but then as I was doing that, as I came, like I was just filled with like this, this rush of shame, um, that like really like took me back to, um, you know, like my religious days. And so—

Mm-hmm.

I, I just like to the camera, I just started talking out of like, this is what's going on through my head right now. Um, you know, like, uh, yeah, you know, like I'm having these thoughts that, you know, um, uh, I just pissed off God or like, you know, that I'm sinning again, you know, that, that I'm, that I, I shouldn't be here because I'm gay and all this stuff. And, and like kind of talking through that, um, Mm-hmm. You know, was, was one example. But then, yeah, you know, sometimes like there's videos where You know, there's times where I might be in between sessions or between meetings, and I might be really stressed. And then I'm sharing that, you know, like, my reason why for this is to regulate my stress and to, you know, have that stress release. Sometimes, you know, it's my own, like, self-pleasure date, or because I want to connect deeper with my partner. And Yeah, like, so I try to create kind of an expansive, you know, like library of those videos.

Mm-hmm.

One of my favorite ones that I want to do more of, it was like a mindful masturbation meditation. So it was like mixing those worlds together and So I started off with a meditation and then, like, and I'm guiding, you know, the audience through this too, of, you know, tapping back into like a deep fantasy that you've had, like something you've always wanted to do. And then you start like guiding through meditation to build that image in your mind as you are stroking at the same time. And so it's like a 30, I think 30-minute long video, but it's just a neat way to like connect with your interests, to explore those interests, but also to create like a safe story. So if somebody has had like a lot like unsafe experiences, you know, this is a way you can kind of reclaim some of that while focusing on just what feels good in the moment. So yeah, you know, that's a lot of the— the content that I create. But yeah, I encourage people to like just to start exploring and researching it. It can be a hard thing to explore or like to search for.

Yeah.

But, you know, once you find, you know, one creator, like just kind of see who they're connected to or like who they interact with and see what spiderwebs out of that because there's a A really cool, cool world out there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So for you listening, this, this idea of a naked mindful meditation masturbation, that is what you want to work up to when you are rediscovering what arouses you and when you are reprogramming the brain to not, to not intertwine meth and sex. Because you want to know everything that we're going to— I'm going to go back over what you said in terms of the, the masturbations. Everything that Kevin said to do in terms of exploring your body, yes. And if you can bring up a scenario, scenario, this is what I did. Like, I, I made up a particular man. Like, if I were to have the perfect man, right? And so I made him up. Mm-hmm. Everything, dick size, everything, ass, whatever, face. Skin tone. But he and I had like a 2-year affair, pretty much. And that was— I was imagining him and I doing certain things while I was masturbating instead of watching porn.

Mm-hmm.

And then I got to learn, okay, wait a minute, I liked doing this while I was high on meth. Maybe, maybe it was, maybe it was fisting, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Imagining fisting sober in this scenario did not get me off and it did not entice me. So I got to put that in the category of that's, that's meth talking. I like fisting only in meth, right?

Mm-hmm.

Now, uh, that's just my example out there. Like you can fist in sober, in a sober world, of course, right? There are sober fisters. But this, this idea of meditating and, and bringing these scenarios up in your mind while you're touching yourself, while you're masturbating, that is what you want to do to reprogram. And then when you feel yourself veering over into a PNP scene, a meth scene, you want to stop. You want to stop because you don't want to associate the pleasure With the meth, right? So you just wanna let go, let go of the cock, stand up, breathe, and get back into it. And so what you're saying here, this mindful masturbation, naked mindful masturbation meditation, um, that, yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect for the listeners, I think.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for bringing up that point too, cuz that's incredibly important as well. Especially if, yeah, you know, if we, you know, if we have, you know, shame connected to those experiences too, or any experience that we have, sometimes like the brain and that pairing can kind of get in our own way or kick ourselves in the ass when, you know, by bringing up, you know, some of those things that just aren't helpful.

Yeah.

for us right now. But in a weird way, like, it can, it can feel kind of good in the sense of like, like, let me share a personal example to help with this. For, for me, like, I've been cheated on a lot in the past.

Yeah.

And there, there'd be a lot of times where I was finding that like, My part of my masturbation routine every night for months was like thinking back to those experiences, like the times I've been cheated on and like getting off to them. Like something about that like felt really pleasurable but also really bad at the same time. But it was almost like a form of self-punishment of like the shame was kind of kicking in and it was saying like, yeah, you don't deserve to be with somebody who actually wants to be with you. So let's, let's go back to this experience. But we can find Like the brain can find that pathway to find pleasure in something that isn't helpful. So I had to zoom out of that and realize, oh, you know, even though this is helping me to get off, this larger picture of it, it's not helping me where I want to be going.

Yeah.

So that's like the consciousness and the kind of like deep self-awareness for us to pull ourselves out and do that higher level thinking. You know, but I love exactly what you said of, you know, as, as, as you're going through that, as you're kind of creating those, those scenes and those fantasies, Um, just notice where your mind kind of wants to go and ask that question of like, is this helping me? Um, and yeah, you know, if you have like those very hard lines and boundaries of like, I know for where I'm at in my path and my journey right now, you know, thinking of this is not helpful. Exactly what you said there too, of like, once you think of it, stop, you know, literally do something else. Um, uh, uh, uh, Joel, uh, who's Power Is a Man, like, um, he has this technique of like, banging on your chest. And so that could be a really helpful one too, you know. So like, if, if you mentally start going there, banging on your chest, that way it's a, it's a, it's a cue for the brain to be like, oh, come back. Like, let's come back.

I like that. Bang on chest. It's kind of like tapping, sort of, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Which, yeah, which that's, that's something we haven't had on the podcast. Um, all right. This, I, I wonder, I still can't, I'm, I'm kind of hung up on this. I have permission to feel pleasure. So if, for the listeners, I want you to really say that to yourself. Like, I have permission to feel pleasure.

Mm-hmm.

And I have, I, I'm giving myself permission to take the time, invest the time to really connect with myself and connect. And I get to decide what feels good and what not, what doesn't, not a chemical.

Mm-hmm.

You know, not some stranger who's dominating me at, at, at the, at the chemsex orgy. You know, not the pornography that's brainwashing me. I get to, this is part of empowerment. This is part of recovery and, and you having the opportunity. Listen, all of us who have had experiences with meth have a special opportunity to begin again, wipe the slate clean, assess our sexual arousal, and define exactly what that looks like. That's a privilege. It's a privilege, right? Um, and I just think there's so much— there's so many internalized homonegativity and internalized homophobia, you know, shame, and like you're saying, all this stuff. I don't think we, we feel, we feel worthy. Of feeling anything that feels good.

Right? Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally. It can, it can be pretty eye-opening for our own self to see where, where that block is, you know. And so if that block for ourself is at, like, I just can't, I, I can't get myself to experience pleasure, or I can't get myself to even create that space for me to try to experience pleasure. You know, there's so much information there that we're, you know, communicating to ourselves of, you know, oh yeah, I don't feel worthy of this. And maybe I don't feel worthy of this because, you know, this, this person sent this, or I needed these things before to experience pleasure. Maybe I don't feel like I'm worthy of it just as I am right now. And you use the word investment, and I love that. I think like, like, There, there's a lot of psychology behind like anything that we invest into, like, like we are doing some sort of an energy exchange, you know, we're taking something that is important to us in exchange to get something out in return. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so when we invest in our pleasure, like we're helping to send ourselves the signal of you know, I'm giving up my, you know, maybe it might be a time, you know. And so for a self-pleasure date, we're taking time out of our schedule.

Yeah.

Like, I'm investing my time in this experience. Like, that is important to me. So we're helping ourselves see that pleasure is important. Um, you know, even like investing in, uh, you know, content creators that you align with, you know, like there's a financial investment there. Um, investing in, you know, lubes that make you feel really good, even if it's expensive, you know, or investing in sex toys, like whatever that may be. But like, there's, there is this cool symbol that that stands in of, you know, I am saying to myself that my pleasure is important. I'm going to prioritize it. And that I am worthy of it. Like I am worthy of, you know, this. This, this, this feeling for myself and for, for my body.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that. 'Cause you know what? It doesn't take much investment to get into meth. It took a few, it took a few clicks on Grindr and a puff, a puff on a pipe, right? That's what you're, you're investing. So nothing worth having is easy, right? And like you said, it requires an investment. You might have to miss your 30-minute Netflix show, but to invest in this date, this self-pleasure date, right? That's sacrifice. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So just to— oh, I'm sorry for the coughing. Um, to review, right, is that we want to set the date. We want to set a self-pleasure date, whatever length of time that is, um, we want to focus on pleasure. What is giving me pleasure? So use the 5 senses. What scent, you know, maybe it's an armpit candle or something like that, right?

Yeah, let me know.

I'll make one for you. Oh my God. Um, yeah, so, you know, what scent give me pleasure? What, um, Probably fat, maybe even fabric. Like maybe I want to lay on a fuzzy— I have a really fuzzy blanket that I love in the mornings. Maybe it's that's bringing me pleasure, right? Sounds, sights, what colors in the room, you know, I have a client who loves red lights when he's masturbating.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, there's that. So really take a moment and this is such a good practice in really knowing yourself. What you like. And it's not just, I like to be versed and I like to be choked. And you're like, this is like, this is what brings me pleasure.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. And then you're gonna, you're gonna create the, you know, what do I need right now? Um, create the atmosphere. What brings me pleasure right now? Okay. And then of course, get rid of distractions. No phones, no devices. And no, nothing, nothing, no porn, just you, right? And the music, right? My pleasure is allowed. And go for it, right? The goal is no coming. You don't— the goal is not to come. The goal is not to get off. The goal is not even to masturbate, right? The goal is pleasure. Category is pleasure.

Right?

100%. And then you start with your finger. Tips, you said anywhere on your body and then let your body lead. Wait a minute. This under my arm feels— I remember when I was doing this, my, I always tell people my nipples aren't sensitive because that's a big question. Are your nipples sensitive? I want to squeeze them. I want to, you know, put clamps on them and all that stuff. And I would always say, no, they're not. They're like paralyzed. I don't know that, you know, but then when I started doing my, you know, feeling myself, I was like, oh my God. It's the way that I'm touching my nipples right now feels good, but I've never let anyone explore them. So when I started exploring my nipples, I was like, oh, my nipples are sensitive when they're tweaked in a certain way, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then like, as, as we do that, like, we just get to learn about ourselves, like learning about like this body we've been carrying around for our whole life. And so like, We can then, you know, start to just say back to ourselves, like, isn't it cool? Like, isn't it cool that I learned that this is the way my nipples feel pleasure? Like, yeah, cool that my armpits, you know, like, are just super soothing for me. Like, like, it's just neat. Like, this is, this is fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, using language back to ourselves, like, also then helps us to see that, like, no matter what our body is or what it looks like, like, It's, it's cool and it's awesome and it's, and it's amazing for what we need, you know, so also helps to like work through a lot of like body, body challenges too.

Yeah. Body challenges.

Yeah.

Yeah. Great. Okay. So I, the first time that you try this, listener, it's not going to, it's probably going to seem awkward. It's probably going to seem weird. It's not going to bring you any joy at first. Cause I hear this a lot. Like guys will, they'll either try sober sex. But they'll try mindful masturbation and they're like, I hated it. I've never jacked off without porn. It was awkward. I got nowhere. I didn't, I was frustrated. I was more frustrated after than I was in the beginning. Right. And again, this is a practice. Like, be fucking patient with the whole process, but especially this one. Especially if you're trying this deep stroke. That, what is it? 12, 12 deep strokes, deep stroke sequence. You try with your other hand you don't jack off with, it's gonna be awkward. It's like writing with your left hand if you're a right.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Is that the advice you would give somebody? Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And, and, you know, right along with that too, like, uh, just notice and pay attention to what's bubbling up for you in that experience. And so Okay. You know, if, if you set out to do 30 minutes, but you can only get 15 because you're so fucking pissed off, that'd be your experience for the day. But get curious as to why, like, what was coming up for you there? Like, like, for that frustration, what were you frustrated about? And like, when we ask ourselves that why question, like, we use that with that tone behind it of like curiosity, like, why? Like, why, why was it so frustrating for me? Like, it's neither good nor bad. We don't want to judge it, but like, it's just information, you know. And so maybe that might be like, oh, I'm so used to jacking off being productive. And so I felt like I was wasting my time, you know, then it's like, ah, that's interesting, you know. So that's helpful for us for the next time. It's, yeah, you know, absolutely a practice.

Yeah.

And, you know, just like anything, like, especially the very first times that we're doing something, it often doesn't feel super great.

Right.

Here, like, you know, we have the brain involved and the brain gets very good at doing what it's used to. And so when it's doing something different, it kind of doesn't like it. So we kind of got to work through— there's like an adjustment period of just working through that frustration. But then, you know, once we do give ourselves a bit of that time, it can be really interesting what does come up and how helpful, you know, something like this can be. Yeah.

Yeah. It also strikes me that this is going to help you with cravings management, emotional regulation. It's going to help you in those moments when, like, you know, chemsex cravings are full-body cravings. Like it's a, it's a full body sensual sensation, sensational experience, right? And that can easily take over, right? But when you are practicing something like this, you're, you're being more mindful. You're in touch with your body. You're listening to your sensations and you are in coherence with it, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's going to help you Get through a craving, process a craving, sit with uncomfortable emotions. Like, this is something that's going to help you in all aspects of your recovery.

Yeah, 100%. And that's one of the really cool things with it is like, it's learning this practice here. It's a symbol that stands in for mindfulness in all areas of life, even down to eating, you know, like if, if we have, you know, like a certain like food craving, You know, we then pause and be like, hey, like, where's this coming from? You know, or, you know, like, this can be helpful with, with work, with our relationships, with our, our loved ones, like it translates kind of across the board. And so it's really neat how, you know, starting in a, in a very sexual way leads to like benefits kind of throughout like all domains of our, of our life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, pleasure priest, what did I miss today? What did I not ask about that you wish I had?

No, this, this was, this was perfect. This is everything that, that I was, you know, definitely thinking of too.

And good. Yeah.

Yeah. This was incredible. I love it.

Great. Good. Well, if you're listening, just, You follow it. We're going to put— I'll put, um, Kevin's, um, Instagram in the show notes. Also a link to your OnlyFans too. Yeah, I'm sold on OnlyFans now because of yours. Thank you.

Yeah, it was nice.

It was like, oh, okay, I know him. I talked to him. Yeah, yeah, he's on the podcast. Yeah, that's funny. Um, all right, I hope that you all really, um, Got, were helped by this. Um, I know it's a lot to, to, to take in, but make sure you get the study guide. And, um, if you have questions, I, I'd say ask Kevin, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Ask Kevin.

Yeah. Yeah. Here for any questions anytime. Always love, uh, love helping.

Great. Well, thank you for coming back.

Thank you. Thank you for having us. So much fun. Good.

And we'll see you all next week.