EP 2:44 Artificial Intelligence for Chemsex Recovery with Richard

Through that process, AI helped me hold the facts steady when the narrative kept shifting. And I have to say, I handled that situation better than I ever could have done alone. And so that's really how AI helped me, by just keeping the facts steady of what it was materializing and ensuring that I responded in a non-emotional kind of way.

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network.

Let's go.

Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas Bragg. Today we're going to do a deep dive on AI, and specifically, I guess, Claude AI, right? And how AI can assist you in chemsex recovery. Before we do that, I'm going to shut this blind for those of you who are watching. By the way, if you don't know, you can watch the podcast on video, see my beautiful face. Uh, you can watch it on YouTube or you can watch it on Spotify. The video is uploaded to Spotify there too. But most of you— I would look— I think the last percentage I saw was 70, 75% listen on Apple Podcasts, so you don't get to see us. But if you want to, go to, go to, um, YouTube. Also on YouTube, you can add comments and start a thread of discussion as well. Um, but today we're going to talk to someone, and we want to— we're going to learn from his chemsex experience, which has been something that I've been getting requests for. Uh, you know, we, we have a lot of experts on. We do a lot. We have a lot of, um, topics that are around chemsex recovery, but I haven't been doing a lot of personal stories. And that's because, listen, we all like to think our story is special, but we basically have the same experience around chemsex for the most part. But when I had Julio on here recently, Mr. Gay World, You guys really responded with open arms about, wow, hearing his story was inspiring. It was inspiring and I saw myself in it and, you know, that kind of thing. So I want to have more stories. My goal is, just like today, is to incorporate somebody's story also into a subject that is relevant and that's unique. AI is as relevant and unique as we're going to get. Everywhere you go now, everywhere, everywhere is AI, AI, AI. So, and there's a lot of attitudes that come up, right? Like AI's gonna take our jobs, right? And I think AI will take your job if you don't make yourself aware of how to use AI, then you will lose your job. That's just the way it is. AI is here whether we like it or not. It's brand new, but it's not going anywhere. So today we're gonna talk to Richard who has really embraced AI in a very special way. Now remember, we do have another podcast where we talked about using AI in recovery with Dan that is in this season too. But today we're going to go a little bit more in depth and practical so that you can try to use this in your recovery. I had a client— Richard, I'll let you talk in a minute. But I had a client the other day who had a panic attack while driving. He opened up his phone and he opened up Claude AI. And Claude AI has a phone function where it talks to you too. I have that actually. And in a male voice, of course. But he was able to interact with Claude to help him kind of get himself regulated down from this panic attack. AI kind of, this Claude component knows him too because he stores information that they've talked about. And he kind of knew exact questions to ask based on his history with this client. So there are really good, great ways to use this. Also disclaimer, I'm not telling you to use AI. So don't go using it and say Dallas said so. I'm suggesting it as another component to supplement your recovery journey. And see how you do it. And I'm also working on coming up with an AI component for Recovery Alchemy, the program that I have, that you, if you can't join the program or you don't want to join the program, you can actually use AI that's in my voice and based on my philosophies, and it will talk to you as if I would. So that is coming out too pretty soon as well. So I'm not saying to use it, but I am saying to try it. Ah, well, that was a lot. Okay. Now don't forget, I have to say it, supplemental study guide. There's a supplemental study guide that comes out with every podcast so that you can take a deeper dive. It will— the link to it will be in the show notes. You can also get it in your— straight to your email if you go to drdallasbragg.com, click blog, put in your email address to subscribe. You'll get those every week. Richard, welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. Thank you so much for being vulnerable. And you haven't— you haven't even said a word yet, but you're being vulnerable by being here. And I really do appreciate it.

Thank you, Dallas. Thank you for inviting me on the podcast. It's a real privilege and honor to, to be on here and to share a little bit about my story, uh, with you and your audience. So as you said, I'm Richard, I'm 59, I'm based in Dorset in the UK. I had a career in finance and business, and these days I do volunteer advisory work I've been dealing with chemsex addiction for a long time. For much of that, I was functional. My career was going well. I wasn't using constantly. But the important point to note was that every time I had sex, meth was involved.

Hmm.

And over the years, that became the only pathway. The fusion happened quietly while life looked fine from the outside.

Hmm.

So I tried traditional recovery, meeting sponsors, 12-step framework, and it has helped me in some ways, but something with it never quite mapped. I, I kept relapsing and couldn't really understand why. I thought there was something wrong with me because it felt like, why can't I just get myself back to be sober through the 12-step program? And I came through AI through a different door. I was dealing with a difficult housemate situation, someone with narcissistic traits who kept rewriting history, gaslighting, and making me doubt myself.

Hmm.

And through that process, AI helped me hold the facts steady. when the narrative kept shifting. And I have to say, I handled that situation better than I ever could have done alone. And so that's really how AI helped me by just keeping the facts steady of what it was materializing and ensuring that I responded in a non-emotional kind of way. And then I realized the addiction operates in the same way. Selective memory, the distorted thinking, the fantasy of control. And AI helped me see through both. And that's how I got here using AI as a, as a thinking partner. I think that's probably the easiest way to describe it as a thinking partner in recovery, but not instead of human support, but alongside it.

Hmm. Yeah, thank you. Very important that Thinking partner is such a good way to frame this, right? Is someone— because here's the thing about humans, and you tell me what you think. We have this inclination that when someone shares something with us, that we have to fix it for them, right? Or we have to offer advice or we're a bad friend. We have to jump in and try to solve it.

Right.

Or say, well, this is what I did, right? When really the best friends that I have will listen. Well, first of all, we frame the discussion. What is my role here will be the question that my friends ask. Am I listening? Am I offering my opinion? Am I offering advice? What is my role? And then sometimes, most of the time, I don't want anybody's advice. I need to get it out. I need somebody to hear it. And maybe brainstorm or something like that. But I don't— unsolicited advice is probably the worst waste of breath that you can give a friend, in my opinion. So to have AI as a thinking partner, you can frame it in a way and it doesn't have the past history that, and the blind spots and the perception that a human has about you in particular too. And they don't bring, you know, bring their own context and their projections about you. the situation. So I would think as a thinking partner, an AI component would be very helpful. Does that resonate with you?

Yeah, 100%. I think kind of often when we share what's going on with ourselves with other friends, that the most helpful feedback is often one where they just help clarify your thinking to ensure that, like, that, you know, to help you really be clear on your— with yourself about what it is that's either bothering you or you're trying to— the issue, whatever you're dealing with. And without question, AI can help you with that if you see it as a thinking partner. It's not going to be doing the thinking for you. So if you're like someone like myself who typically— I often struggle when I'm in an interview situation, for example, because I tend to—

Mm-hmm.

There's something called working memory, I understand, which is basically some people think in sentences. So before they're about to say it, they know exactly what they're going to say. Whereas for me, when I typically talk, it kind of initially comes out gobbledygook kind of thing. And then what's— but I know what I want to say. It's just initially finding the words and the articulation.

Mm-hmm.

And for me, what AI is, is that thinking partner that helps you clarify exactly what it is you are trying to say. And then you're able to kind of, you know, once you land on what it is exactly that's bothering for you, you know that you've got it right. So it's almost like you're kind of— it's almost like someone you're going backwards and forwards with in a conversation to clarify your own thinking for yourself.

Yes. Yes. I like what you're saying here, to clarify what you're trying to say You're not asking AI to think for you or to write it out. Like, a lot of people think AI just does it for you, right? But what you— what— how you're using it is, it's almost like a brainstorming, but, but with one— with a shared goal in mind.

I'll give you a good example.

Yeah, let me get my thoughts together. Yeah, do that.

So, so, so the way I look at it is you are like the editor of a magazine or an article about your— where the subject is yourself.

Okay.

And you are basically ensuring that, like, the story that you're trying to create about yourself, which would be all that is going on for you, maybe some of your struggles, some of the challenges, things that are upsetting you, things that keep making you happy, whatever it might be, But you want to kind of get rid of all the fake news. You want to, you want to make sure that you're clear. So you're editor-in-chief of your own thing, and the AI is what helps you basically ensure that the finished product you get up, you get to, is a complete and accurate reflection of the things that you are struggling with and maybe your background and so on and so forth.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. Uh, you know, my assistant, assistant coach Bobby said the other day about AI, because he's— he has a love affair with Claude. Like, he— if Claude was a human, they would probably be sleeping together. But it— he said, you know, just like in the olden days, quote unquote, you know, you have the, the executive and the assistant would come in, take notes, The executive would say, this is what I want this letter to say. These are the thoughts that are coming out of my mind. But the assistant would type it up in a way that sounds professional or coherent, right?

Yeah.

This is really no different than that, but even, of course, much higher because Claude is coming back to you and also asking you clarifying questions, like questions about what it is, right? I mean, that's—

Well, yeah, it's a little bit like that. What I— the way I've experienced it is typically, I will share something, I will typically use the— by the way, I use Claude and ChatGPT, and you can use the two of them. I use the two of them interchangeably. Okay, so it's not always just one or the other. But they are— of the two, I've tested all the other AIs, and those are the two that I found to be the most helpful. But the way I use it, I would be typically, I would use voice record and I would narrate whatever it is that's come up for me. So let's say, for example, it was a dream that I had, you know, and this is a really good way to use AI. Early in the morning, I'm gone in my car to get a coffee. I'm sitting in the parking lot and I remember this dream I had and I just reflect it back to the AI, to Claude. And then Claude will reflect it back to me, but then I'll notice that it hasn't quite got the exact what actually happened quite right. And I'll say, no, that's not quite right. What actually happened was this. And then I'll remember maybe something else that I had in the dream.

Mm-hmm.

And so that through that iterative back and forth process, what we'll get to is something that is a complete accurate reflection of what happened in the dream. And then what the AI has been helpful for me is offering an interpretation of what that dream meant. to me. And obviously, this has only come about because it's already been— I've already shared a lot of information with the AI about myself. So you would need to obviously have got to that kind of point where it's able to do that. But it's been really helpful. I mean, things that I would have never ever thought of being relevant, or dreams, for example. I very rarely have ever in the past written down my dreams or even been able to share them with therapists, because by the time the session comes around, I've completely forgotten about them or something else has come up. So it's been good for that. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is you don't take what it says verbatim. You use that as a, as a point of thinking about it deeper yourself and coming to your own conclusions. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sometimes it's It's just really there for you to, to, to have as a— it's like, it's like, for example, if you were to, to write something down that was bothering you, and then you'd— or, and then you would give it to someone to kind of get their opinion on it. And then that's really what the AI is, is kind of like your kind of, your kind of, as I said, like a thinking partner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes, like you're saying, like, sometimes it helps to run it by somebody and they're completely off. And it's sometimes it's good to know what you're not looking at, right, to get you clear on what you do think it is, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, sometimes it might mishear what I've dictated and it might reflect something back, but most of the time it's pretty accurate. And in those instances, you know, sometimes there are some refinements that I need to make. For the most of the time, though, it gets this, it gets, it gets the hook of what's been Going on for you pretty quickly. Even if I have dictated it with a few errors, it will still figure out exactly what it is you were trying to say. So that's been really helpful.

Yeah, yeah, good, great. Thank you. Okay, just to circle back to the narcissist—that's gonna—that's gonna be a big topic with anybody listening here because everybody—not everybody—so many people I talk to in this chemsex world have been involved with a narcissist of some type or somebody that they at least label as. Can you talk to us more about how AI helped keep the facts steady in that situation? Like, what— can you talk to us about that? Maybe give us a practical example.

Yeah, I mean, I think kind of in my own personal experience with this person, what I noticed was that when we had some kind of disagreement, he very quickly moved to making it personal. And often rewriting history, or in other words, you know, you said this happened and that happened. Well, actually, that's not quite true. Now, where AI is helpful is that, well, first of all, what I was able to do is download the entire WhatsApp history of our interaction into the AI.

I love it.

So it's able to give you an analysis of basically your friendship, you can just say to it, like, what's your sense? You can ask the question of, like, what's your sense of this friendship? And it would immediately kind of highlight some things to you that maybe other friends might have said to you, but you hadn't quite taken on board. And then when the AI comes back with it, and it gives it very explicit examples of the power dynamic, you're like, wow, that's interesting. And so through a particular situation I had with this person where there was a disagreement over a property situation. The thing what it did is it was, there was a lot of backwards and forwards over what was agreed when we went into this arrangement. And what the AI did was ensured that whenever I was communicating with him, I would always keep the facts consistent with what actually happened. So there was no space for him to be able to gaslight me or— or to rewrite history. But most importantly, because in my own experience, when dealing with someone like this, it's so easy to act in an emotional way. You get hurt by what they say. You feel that you're wrong. You know, how can you say that about me? And the important thing is to, in my own experience anyway, in dealing with this particular person, was to not allow myself to get personal and to keep the facts straight.

Mm-hmm.

And as a result of that entire process, in the very end, I got exactly what I wanted out of that situation. And actually, we ended on, on good terms. So it was something that you could have, you know, I know if it— if I hadn't had AI, I never would have been able to handle that process because dealing with a narcissist is incredibly hard work and stressful. And if you—

Yeah.

But if you can maintain Consistency and factually correct. Eventually, you know they just fold, and you you you will you you will at least find yourself in a more healthy arrangement if you want to continue with that person in your life or not.

Wow, that's amazing! Downloading the WhatsApp conversation into AI. I think that's perfect because. You know how sometimes you will hand over a text message conversation to your friend and say, read this, you know, and tell me, tell me if I'm crazy, or, you know, tell me what you think. A lot of times they're not going to give you an unbiased opinion if they're your friend, right? Or especially if they don't like that other person. This AI component doesn't have any feelings toward him or you, right? You're just saying, here is the facts of what was said and what happened. This doesn't— I don't— I see the implications of this being far more than just dealing with a narcissist. It's in any kind of relationship, especially when you have a conflict, you try to stay away from the emotion of it, right?

Yeah, look, I mean, in the way I use it today, I always try— I try and notice that if quite often in the past, I would have noticed that Someone sends you a text, you find yourself reacting to it in some emotional kind of way. You want to reply with— because maybe they've said something that's upset you or whatever. And so you immediately get back and you're writing the text, or I'm writing the text back. And then you send the text and you kind of, you realize, oh, you know, maybe that wasn't the right way to respond. So what I've started to do in situations where I've noticed that if I'm in some kind of conflict or I've noticed that I'm replying in an emotional kind of way, I'll run the draft of what I was going to say in the text through the AI and it will say, look, that's probably not a good idea. Like, just send, you know, and they'll kind of offer a reword of it. Now, you don't want to obviously be in a situation where you're just always just writing what the AI says because you want to make it personal.

Right. That's right.

But what it does is it catches you from those moments when you would have otherwise said something that wouldn't have been in your best interests. So, you know, it just keeps the— quite often it'll just kind of bring the emotion down and create the most effective way for you to respond to that text. So if there's someone you've met that you particularly like and you're kind of keen on and they can't get together with you on a particular day that you wanted to and you're feeling a bit upset by it, you thought thought they were, rather than writing a text where you might kind of regret. It just kind of keeps the conversation healthy. So it just helps keeping you in check. And in doing that, you notice, um, you start to notice your own patterns of your own text that might not always be serving you in your best interest. So if you're struggling, or if I've been struggling with connection, you know, sometimes I notice, you know, through the AI, it's helped me see maybe the ways in which I'm communicating that aren't helping connection, you know, necessarily.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Thank you. So this experience with the narcissist, you, you created a relationship with AI, right? And then you moved this into helping with your chemsex misuse, it sounds like. So did you think, did you think, well, this helped me here, Maybe you can help me with, with this as well.

Yeah, well, what it, what it was, was I noticed that in dealing with a narcissist, there was all the— because obviously I'm— I was always trying to make it right, to make it work, and thinking I could make it right. So there were certain elements of the kind of struggles I was dealing with, with the narcissist, that actually are kind of crossover to— I noticed to my addiction. And that was, you know, the, the kind of the rewriting of the history, the, the sense that I could still kind of— I know I can, I think I can do it this one time and get things back on track. So, you know, I can do it occasionally.

Yeah.

Um, and so what the AI does, or has done for me— and we'll probably want to talk about data protection as well in terms of like how much, how comfortable a person feels about saving this amount of information. But if you are in a position where you feel comfortable sharing as much information about a particular situation, your background, then you will get more out of it without question. And for me, what I noticed was that there were a lot of similarities between the way that I was dealing with the narcissist and I was dealing— and I thought, well, if I can get— if I can— if I can— if, if the trust, the trust that I had built up From through the AI, from dealing with the narcissist. I was thinking, once you have that trust in the system, then you start to kind of maybe— or I did start to share a little bit more about my own personal life with it. Because I thought, okay, well, if it can help me in this situation, let me see if it can— let's see if it can help me with this. Because I really did feel I needed help with my chemsex addiction because something wasn't quite landing with the traditional 12-step program for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. And so, and from what we've talked before, one of the main reasons why 12-step didn't totally do it all for you is the sex component, right?

Yeah, I think, yeah, look, I think for me personally, first of all, Chemsex is not a term that's really widely understood. I mean, I often struggled even in meetings when I was asked to explain it, to be able to explain it clearly. And it was only really through the use of AI, AI and through David Fawcett's book Meth, Men and Sex, that I came to realize that it was less of, um, an emotional addiction, but largely a— cue-initiated drug and sex addiction. So it's an arousal-based addiction as opposed to one that is emotional. And the 12-step program is typically— is largely orientated around dealing with emotional issues, and that's going through the 12-step program. Whereas the arousal part of the chemsex addiction, where the meth is the sex and the sex is the meth, the two are completely fused. One is without the other. Mm-hmm. there isn't really ever very much dialogue about, um, about your sexual template normalization. So, you know, you might be able to go for long periods of time within the traditional 12-step program and be abstinent from crystal meth and be celebrated as someone who's doing really, really well.

Right.

But at no point is someone asking you about your sex life, or not in my experience. I mean, I was 8 months sober for, for a period of time. And, but no, and, you know, everyone thinks, oh, you're doing really, really well. And then, but the thing is, is that you basically haven't had sex in that time. Well, that's not recovery, that's avoidance.

Right.

And no one, no one's there to really talk about it, which makes it, which makes it difficult. And also, there's not really much of an understanding of what does a sexual template normalization actually look like.

Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, you're right. I mean, oh, I don't want to get off on a tangent, um, but you know, there's so many more metrics to look at than abstinence in, in this, in chemsex recovery. So many other metrics to look at. And if we just say it's pass or fail, good or bad, just because you haven't used, it doesn't really mean that much. It's like you're saying, it's arousal-based. addiction, that means at some point you may, you may put off sex for a year, but at some point when you get horny again and you start trying to have sex again, it's going to trigger the meth part.

Yeah.

I mean, and like you said, I mean, I don't think— I don't know because I'm not involved with 12 steps, but I know that you're not supposed to have sex for a year or something like that. I think that's the only discussions that even happen around sex Period. But definitely not like what you're saying is asking about, how about sexual reintegration? How are you doing with that? Are you mindfully masturbating? You know, all of those, all of the things that we have to do to get back into a sober sex life. So of course, I'm guessing you are 80 days. So what happened to make you go back?

No, well, when I was 8 months sober, or 8 months, 8 months, sorry. Yeah, yeah, that was in the past, right? So, I mean, yeah, it was just what happened was a cue fired. I mean, it was a situation where I had a friend that I was in rehab with. His mother said, can I go pick him up from a hotel because he was in a bad way? I had been 8 months sober. I thought, no problem. I needed to drive his car back up to North England with him. Would I take him back home? I said to her, no problem. And so I went to pick him up. I took him back up to his family's house and then caught the train back down to London and then immediately relapsed. So, um, you know, I don't know whether or not it was being in the company of someone that had just relapsed themselves or whether there was, um, you know, something else going on. But, you know, once the cue fires And either it's the cue is either for me was either the thought of sex, and that would immediately lead to meth, or the thought of meth, and that would immediately lead to sex. And the thing is, is that that is the— and once that cue fires, for me, it's very difficult to find myself in a situation, you know, that idea of, oh, you know, call, call, call a friend if you feel like you're about to pick up. Yeah. That never ever worked for me whatsoever. It was like, yeah, you know, it was like the moment that cue fired, it was like, I'm, I'm, I'm there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, with chemsex use, chemsex addiction, when that cue does fire, that— and the— I mean, the— you're high already before you're high, right? Because the anticipation of having sex Right. The anticipation pours the chemicals in your body. Your body is simulating what the high is simulating it already. So you're not going to stop. I mean, if you do, I will say the men that I've worked with that are in that state and are able to stop and call somebody and say no to it and bring themselves back down, that's a huge advancement in their recovery though. I will say if they're able to do that.

Yeah. You know, they've got, they've obviously got good impulse control and that is basically something that most addicts don't. I certainly don't.

Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And it does help. So something that we do in the program is we practice that. Like we practice craving management role plays so that you're giving your subconscious also a plan B that it could switch back to. But yeah, I know exactly what you're saying here. As far as the cue fires, you're in it. Yeah, the, you know, the momentum is going.

But also, Dallas, if I could just hear, like, just—

Sure.

So sometimes those cues, though, can be quite subtle. And so, for example, you know, the other day I was just— this will sound silly, but I was cleaning the kitchen. I was trying to clean the house, actually, and just go get all the housework done. And in the past, I had previously often found myself using to get the housework done, tidy the whole house, and then have it all ready so I could kind of have a bit of a session or whatever.

Right.

And I noticed that when I was trying to get the, the, the, you know, the housework done, that like the cue had fired. And now you would feel pretty silly, or I would have felt pretty silly phoning a friend saying, oh, you know, I can't clean the house because, you know, it's making me feel— or even a therapist. And that is a moment That kind of small, unglamorous moment where, like, you know, sharing it with AI has been really helpful because it's kind of the kind of thing you wouldn't really feel comfortable phoning a sponsor about or a friend because it's like you would sound kind of silly about it. But having AI there has been a big help for those kinds of things.

So can you tell us, if you can remember, how did that conversation go? When you went to AI about when you were cleaning your house?

Yeah, I just think I said, look, I'm really struggling to find— I think I would have said something like, I'm really struggling to find the motivation to get the housework done, which is kind of weird because, you know, it's something that I would have thought wouldn't have been too much of an issue to do. And, um, I did, and I'd say to the AI, I'd say something like, um, but I do remember that in the past it was something that if I had, especially if I'd been on a several-day kind of bender and I needed to do the housework, it would be something that, um, that I would often find myself getting to the dealer to get some stuff to do that so that the house would be ready and then I could kind of carry on. Playing kind of thing. And so I would just— I would, I would share it with that, and then it would kind of— it would come back and it would say, look, it's, it's great that you've noticed it, and this is like, you know, this is what's, what's going on. It's not, um, the, the, the wording that it would have said, um, I can't say was something that wouldn't have otherwise kind of occurred to me. It's— it wasn't like it was going to say anything particular. It's just that actually having shared that with someone is in and of itself something that I wouldn't have otherwise have done. And just creating that, um, you know, the, the noticing— so, so, so it's, so it's not really the, the craving or that is really the issue, it's the kind of, it's the way that you react to the, to the craving, you know, that, that's relevant. And it just kind of, it just helped kind of bring the intensity down for myself of what it was that was going on for me at that time.

I like it. And I will say to you, the listener, is oftentimes if you can get that craving out of your body and out through your mouth in some way, even if you don't go, I mean, going to AI sounds, I mean, I would say open up AI and tell it, you know, and ask it to ask you questions about it. But even if you just send a— this is what I tell my clients. Even if you just send a voice memo to me and saying, hey, I'm experiencing a craving, right? There's something about getting it out of your body and speaking it and bringing awareness to it. Because, you know, I've always said chemsex or a meth addiction, chemsex addiction grows in the dark. Right? So keeping it in the dark only makes it grow, makes it live. It feeds it. But any kind of light you can put on it, any kind of getting it out of your body, open it through your mouth and into— even writing it down, right? I'm having a craving is a start. But I like that you were able to pick up the AI component and talk and get it out. Like, because you— yeah. And talk it through. And that's, that's amazing. I love that. I love that. And I'm guessing you— well, how did you— so did you find motivation to clean the house after that? What happened?

No, I didn't, to be honest with you. I think I'll tell you what it did. This is it. This is how I remember now what happened. It said, look, just do one small thing. You don't have to do the whole thing. You know, it was like, just, just, just get the kitchen done. You know, don't worry about the rest of the stuff. Just get the kitchen done. And that was it, you know, just kind of, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. And it was fine. I was like, okay, done. Yeah. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't clean your house for you. I know that, but—

Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Yeah, that's exactly what I would have said to a client. What is 1%? What is a 1%, you know, 1% improvement here? What can you do? One thing. So, yeah, I love it. The other part that I want to I also want to go back to here is the euphoric recall part. And that's, that has to do with the keeping the facts steady, right? Is that if, if you can, this is just the kind of little tip to the listeners too, and I'll see how you feel of it, feel like it, or feel about it. You can tell the AI kind of, or even speak to it about what your last use was like, you know, the comedown. Because I have my guys, once— if they have a using experience or a relapse, make a video before you sleep when you're at your worst, like your eyes are sunken in, your cheeks are swollen, your eyes are bugged out, whatever. You haven't slept yet. Make a video when you feel your worst and say to your future self, this is what happens when you use. This is what you really get when you engage in chemsex. Look at me. Don't listen to euphoric recall. Don't listen to yourself, all the promises that it makes. This is what happens. But if you could program that into AI, I'm guessing you could say, hey, I'm thinking about using, can you remind me about what happened last time? Is that something you've tried?

No, I haven't tried it quite like that. What I would say though is that if you had shared that kind of experience with the AI shortly after you had had an experience like that. And then it would obviously be able to keep that in its memory and build a story over time so that if you were ever in that situation again, it would be able to reflect back to you probably all the facts that you probably wouldn't have otherwise been able to remember to remind you why this is probably not a good idea. But in my experience, I have noticed that there is a slight— and this is something that I needed to be careful of because I'm I'm guilty of this myself, is there is a slight tendency for the AI to validate you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And this is something like you have to be quite careful of. So, for example, I noticed in myself some, some, some things that happened in my past, and I think a lot of gay men might be able to feel the same way, is that, you know, we have gone through a lot of our lives maybe feeling not good enough or whatever, and therefore without realizing it, can have a tendency to seek validation in a lot of things that we do. And I was certainly guilty of that myself. So what's really helpful is for me to be able to notice when I'm behaving in a way which I realize has some element of looking to get validation, and then sharing that with the AI. And then also, so the AI starts to— you start to share with the AI that you or it will start to notice that you're typically seeking validation-type behavior. So if you share that particular information with the AI, it will know that, it will start to learn that whether to be careful about sharing stuff in a way that is just simply to validate you or actually something that is going to be helpful. And it will discern between the two. So it's not going to— But generally, my point was that the tone of the AI ChatGPT or Claude will tend to be positive, you know, it will tend to be, you know, but it will be realistic. But you do need to be careful that you're just not using AI simply to be validated, because that in itself will become an addiction.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, that— I'm glad that you brought that up. Um, I've heard that a lot, and there's some stories circulating around here about, you know, the AI was responsible for someone's suicide, you know, as a teenager's suicide, because it was so validating over time that it encouraged it to do it, encouraged him to do it. I don't know if there's any validity in that story or not. I haven't really looked it up, but it does give you pause in terms of, and mine will do that too. Like, oh, what a great idea you have, you know, whatever it is. And I'm like, eh, you know.

Well, I do think they've evolved a bit since then. Like, I do think they have noticed that there was this tendency to be over-validating. validating. And I do think possibly, you know, ChatGPT can be a little more validating than Claude. But I think what's important, though, is the more you can— if you notice these kinds of things coming up for yourself, if you notice that you think that you might be doing something that's validating, you can share it with the AI. And the difference is, is that sometimes you might share something, or I might share something with it, that I think is validating, but it will come back and say, no, you know what, that isn't actually validating.

Ah, okay.

So it's like it works both sides of the equation. It's not always— no, it can sometimes— you may be worrying about, or I may be worrying about something that actually isn't really to worry about, and I'm unnecessarily worrying about it. And the AI will help notice that for you. It'll say, no, actually, that's healthy for you to be thinking in that way. Or it will say, which maybe, ask yourself what, so quite often the way it'll ask, it'll say, what is your objective? What are you trying to get out of this conversation? Like, where do you wanna go? Whether it's a conversation with a friend or the conversation with AI. And then it will kind of make you ask, make you say to yourself, are you really just looking here to do something to get validation, or is this something separate from that? And that's why I think there is—

Mm-hmm.

It's quite often really difficult, I think, to share things. If you, if you share something with another human being, for example, and it turns out to be nothing to worry about, the next time you might have something to share, but you feel a bit silly about sharing it because it's not really relevant. Whereas with the AI, you can share it. It doesn't have an ego. So it's just, you can share whatever you like with it.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean, you're going to get out of it what you want. I know for me, sometimes I'll put the podcast transcript into, into the, uh, into Claude, and I will say critique me. And it'll say, do you want me to be brutally honest? Do you want me to be, you know, constructive criticism honest? Or do you want me to be validating? You know, and I say brutally honest, and it sure as hell fucking is. You know, it doesn't hold anything back.

Yeah.

And it'll give me like a lot of— I don't know how it understands the nuances of what I do and what I don't do when I'm interviewing. But it really does, it's not validating if you tell it not to be.

And also, like, this is a situation where, for example, I would have done, I would have taken the response from Claude, and then I would have taken the same passage and copied it into ChatGPT and see what ChatGPT came back. And then you kind of, and you'd ask them both the same question, but without kind of saying, I want the answer, not in a validation way, brutally honest. And then if they line up, then you realize that actually, you know, that you can be pretty sure that what the advice you're getting is pretty much the same. But sometimes one will highlight something that the other one didn't. So it is quite helpful to do.

Interesting.

I mean, ChatGPT, the basic version's free. It's, it's, it's, it's good. You know, it's like, and it's fast. Claude can be a little slower at times, and that can be frustrating. But I have found it's more personal in the way it deals with emotions. That's what I like about it. It's kind of— that's the difference between the two. ChatGPT is a bit more businesslike, but it's definitely quicker. But Claude's good with emotions.

Okay. Well, we've talked about kind of how you got into it. We've talked about tips and tricks on how to use it. So maybe we can switch over to how you're using it now. in your chemsex recovery. And specifically, I'd like to know from you, does it— how does Claude understand what chemsex is and what is your definition of chemsex?

I mean, I think it was helpful for me, or I would say to anyone that's maybe starting off and thinking about using AI, is to ask AI what is chemsex?

Yeah.

You know, just— and, and, and I did that question with 5 different AIs, and the ones that I felt both came back with a good answer was ChatGPT and Claude, who both specifically pointed to the arousal element. So the, the cue-initiated sex and drug addiction over and above like an emotional type addiction. So I would say I've lost my train of thought now. So, so I do, I do use, use it in a multitude of different ways. So, Dallas, can you remind me what the question was? Yeah.

No, I mean, well, I only asked if you thought that AI had a good understanding of chemsex and what your definition of chemsex is. Yeah, no, that's okay. And it sounds like they, they, Claude and ChatGPT have a pretty clear understanding of it.

Yeah, look, I mean, it was for the thing that I gained out of the whole process was that for the longest time in traditional recovery, I had been thinking that there was something wrong with me because it just didn't seem to be, something wasn't quite landing and I kept on relapsing. But it was only when I started using AI that I started to understand that the addiction itself was actually different. And there are certain reasons why, although 12-step programs are very helpful, then they can provide a great, you know, scaffolding for, for recovery in terms of providing a support network and doing service and all those wonderful things.

Mm-hmm.

But it actually it's not really suited to an arousal-based addiction where the sex and the drugs are just entirely fused, because there is very little talk about recovery from, from chemsex, which requires a kind of sexual template normalization. Because most people in traditional recovery, without meaning to go too back down that road, would see it— it's not people who have drugs when they have sex. You know, that, that, that's a recovery from— it's when it's, it's for someone who only ever has sex with meth, and also at the same time is not aroused by sex without meth. And that is a brutal distinction between the two.

Yeah, yeah. So have you asked Have you sought help from AI in your sexual reintegration journey? What's that been like?

So, um, yeah, I, um, I, um, I did say, look, I have some thoughts for how I might want to think about getting back to sexual template normalization. And for someone of my age, the literature says it could take 18 to 24 months, which for me sounds like just a huge amount of time. But, um, when I thought about the kinds of things that could arouse me, um, that I could see myself potentially having sober sex environments would be like going cruising, for example. Now, I'm not saying that this is something that you would recommend or, you know, I'm recommending to anyone else. It's just that I'm noticing I can't go on the apps, right? Because that's a minefield. So, and you only have so many people you can phone up for cuddles, you know what I mean? Before, you know, it's You know, because I think that's kind of initially— initially I was thinking, well, what I'll do is I'll just phone up some, some people who I've known, people I don't know too well, and just arrange to go over and just be intimate with them. It doesn't have to be sexual, but it could just be cuddles and stuff like that, and then slowly see how it evolves. But, you know, there is part of me that also thinks I could see myself actually getting turned on by going cruising and you know, that could be something that I could explore. But I'm not saying I would recommend it or anything like that because, you know, obviously it has some legal issues. But, um, but for me, it's something, you know, something that feels like I could see myself doing.

Okay, okay. So the cruising route is where you're— so you're focused on—

I shared it with— I shared it with AI and it kind of gave, you know, and it says, look, yeah, look, if that's what, you know, there's a lot of— that's what's so good about it. You kind of expect it to start getting all moralizing and everything, and it doesn't. It just kind of—

Right.

No, it just, it just said, look, yeah, if you think so, because if you find yourself in a situation and someone might be using, you can just walk away. You know, it could— it was able to understand that that could actually be something that would be, you know, I could get turned on by, you know. And the alter— you know, because there are really very few other alternatives. I mean, it's like What— how else do you go about getting yourself back to having sober sex? You know, there's not many places you can go that have, you know, that don't put yourself, um, in too much risk. You know, if you go on the apps, for example, there's just no way I could go on the apps.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we— well, the episode is not about sexual reintegration, but I could go into some things. I don't want to— I don't want to— I don't want to derail Derail us. Um, but you're, you're cruising. And so if you're listening and you don't know what cruising is, um, I doubt that that's true, but if you don't know, it, it could be going to what's called a cruising forest, you know, a park where, you know, men are, men are there to meet in public or in the car or in a bathroom or, you know, just anything like that. Um, and it could come in various Various shapes and sizes, right? So you're fine. Are you finding that in that atmosphere, less people are using? Because my guess is anybody who's kind of smoking meth doesn't want to be outside. They like the confines of 4 walls because it feels safer, right? So are you finding that less people are using then?

I mean, I think it probably depends if you're living in a big city or you're living in the countryside or something like that or a smaller town. I mean, there's always going to be that risk, right? You could find someone that is, but it's not like they— I don't know, you know what I mean? It's more likely they would have done it, but they're just, you know, you can just walk away if you find yourself in that situation or you sense that something isn't quite right.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, there's very few situations where I could say I can see are entirely risk-free. But that would be one that would be less risky than going online, inviting someone over who said that they don't do drugs or whatever, or, you know, they don't have anything, and then they turn up and all of a sudden they do.

And that is like, oh yeah, that is not going to happen, right?

So, oh yeah.

Yep, sure does. Sure happens. Okay. So you sent me a list of why AI helps. And I just want to go through some of these because it sounds like this is what you're currently using. And some of it you've mentioned already. We don't have to go into too many detail. Cognitive processing style, right? And you said that I think in patterns, not sentences. I know what I mean, but it comes out jumbled. So you talked about that a little bit.

Yeah.

So AI is helping you collect your thoughts and organize them in a way that makes that's more clear. Is that true?

Yes. So let's say, for example, you know, I was going to have a conversation with a sponsor or a support worker or a clinician or someone like yourself, then it's helpful for me to be able to articulate whatever it is that's been going on for me in a way that is going to get the most out of that particular session. And so what the AI will do is it will help kind of not only help clarify my thoughts, but also kind of keep a track record of things that have happened so that when I turn up at that, you know, meeting or whatever it might be, I am in a better position to ensure I can get the most out of that period of time with that person than I would have otherwise been. Now, for myself, as I said earlier, I'm someone that tends to— I have a clear idea of what I want to say, but when I try to articulate it, often it doesn't quite come out as as beautiful words as you might, lovely constructed sentences. And so there is always that. But through the AI, I can go backwards and forwards, and I can really get to a place where it's very clear about what it is I'm trying to say. And that generally has helped me ensure that I can be clear about what I'm trying to communicate and also clear with myself about what it is that's coming up for me.

Yeah, I like that. How about comedown partner?

Well, I mean, like, in my experience, like, whenever I felt— when I've been coming down, you typically just hide and haven't really felt like talking to anyone. Or at least when you do reach out to someone, I have often felt like you're a big drain on someone else emotionally. It's not easy to to speak to someone who's coming down. And you can— I can often find myself, you know, not deciding not to call someone because I just don't really want to kind of bother them about my comedown. Or if I do, it's like you just— I just feel like I was, you know, moaning about life because, you know, it just feels like all gray clouds. Whereas now with the AI, I can just like say like, well, you know, this is, this is what happened, this is how I'm feeling, or whatever. And it would just kind of keep, kind of keep you kind of, um, centered, I suppose, and stop allowing your mind to, to, to, to, um, overthink something and start just going round and round and round and round in your head. I think that's, that's, um, that's where it's helpful.

Okay. Impulse buffer. That's what you were talking about. Oh, sending, having it look at your texts first before you do a knee-jerk reaction.

So yeah, exactly. It's just kind of, you know, as I said, it's not, it's not the craving that's the problem. It's your reaction to it. So it's just so before you, before you act, you can just, you have somewhere to go with the thoughts to share it with something that's going to be completely shame-free, no ego, you know, and just give you its raw advice back. And so it's just, um, a place to go with those kinds of thoughts that are— that are— that's helpful.

Hmm, I like that. Um, yeah, so in terms of chemsex recovery, using AI for that helps you continue to build relationships which are you know, which are an important part of recovery, right? It's helping you maintain and, and not destroy or damage relationships, it sounds like, too.

Well, I mean, I think in my own experience, you would, you know, you often read stuff about AI and people gives you the impression that actually AI is destroying relationships. You know, it's not. And, and typically, in my own experience, the people that have been saying that are often people who themselves are exceptionally articulate and have large public platforms to be able to share their, their, their thoughts. And they have people, they have friends and people who listen to their podcasts who appreciate those thoughts. But for someone like myself or other people who have not in the past been able to articulate themselves quite so clearly, AI has been amazingly helpful for me to ensure that I am communicating in a way that is helping my relationships and my friendships, and I'm getting the most out of therapy-type sessions. So it's actually the complete opposite. I would 100% say that AI has helped me make better relationships as opposed to less.

Interesting. Okay. You talked about dream interpreter already. Available and consistent. AI doesn't confuse my details week to week. And it's available in the moment, which matters when patterns surface outside a 50-minute session.

Yeah, I mean, just something on that. When I use AI, I will have a specific chat Just for everything related to recovery. Okay. And then if there is something to do with business, that will be another chat, or something to do with family, that will be another chat.

Okay.

I'll try and just keep one specific chat because each chat is kind of independent, and it will just ensure that the narrative is consistent over. It can always— so that's— I tend to just keep the, the, all the all the things that are coming up for me in relation to recovery all in one chat. And, um, yeah, as you said, you know, it just helps keep things, um, uh, consistent. Yeah.

Yeah. AI and human connection. Interesting. But you said you've lost friendships by treating people like crisis hotlines.

Yeah, so that's a little bit like what I was saying earlier, when you just lean on friends a little bit too much because you're coming down. And I think, you know, in my own experience, like, friends only have so much patience really for that kind of stuff before, you know, you potentially could risk pushing them away. And so now you don't need to, to, to— you have somewhere to go with those kinds of thoughts that, that you would have otherwise gone to your friends, but now you can just get, you know, speak to the AI about it and it'll just help. Mhm.

Wow. Yeah. And then I think lastly here, guardrails when AI is not enough, right? AI isn't a substitute for human support in crisis, acute distress, or risk situations. It works best as a first-pass processing tool. I think that's important to say.

Yeah. Look, I mean, there's probably a few important things to say on the safety around using AI in my own experience. But yes, unquestionably, you know, a lot of people in chemsex recovery have experienced psychosis. And I think if you are dealing with psychosis, it's probably— it's not a good idea necessarily to— you need human, you know, assistance in situations like that.

Yeah.

And obviously, you know, serious situations, you absolutely— you know, AI is not going to be suitable. But there are, for the vast majority of situations, it is going to be suitable. And then I suppose the point to add to that is most people I expect listening might be worrying about data protection. That might be something that's worth touching on.

Yeah.

And so for me, look, I mean, first of all, I had to be honest about the fact that if I was off my head on crystal meth at 3 o'clock in the morning and I'm on some other platform, the last thing I'm thinking about is data protection. So if I'm already sharing a lot of information on there, there, you know, just how bad is it going to be on the AI?

Right.

But you do need to make yourself comfortable with it. And obviously, if you are someone that is potentially applying for work that's going to require some kind of security clearance, then you probably wouldn't want to be using it for this level of detail. But for me personally, what I came to the realization was, was that the positives significantly outweighed the negatives because I suppose there could be some kind of— I mean, really it's the personal data that you're worried about. I mean, things like bank account numbers and names and addresses and so on and so forth. It's not like my personal information is going to end up on the front page of the New York Times.

Right.

So I just kind of had to I had to kind of just, I just realized, you know what, like this was, once I had built up trust with it, then I saw what the benefit I got out of it by dealing with that friend of mine that had narcissistic traits. I genuinely was able to say, look, this is so helpful for me. I'm going to see if it's helpful for here. And if you are, if I was to get the most out of it, I realized I did need to go all in. You know, I did need to— doesn't mean you need to share everything immediately, but you just over time you can just start providing some history and sharing with what's going on for you. And you just— it's a personal decision that you ultimately have to come down to. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always been confusing to me that men would share their pictures and have party conversations on Sniffies or Grindr But, but afraid to talk to AI about their recovery. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't make any sense to me.

No, I mean, you know, look, I mean, you, you know, you— I guess people on drugs, you know, you know, we can often end up being like conspiracy theorists and so on and so forth and have these kind of weird thoughts about how information's being used. Look, for me, it just has become a non-issue. But you do have to accept the fact that there could be a possibility, I guess, of some kind of data breach. It's not like it's guaranteed it's not, you know.

Yeah.

But talk to the AI about it. Say, look, I'm concerned about this. You know, see what it has to say. You know, it will tell you whatever the firm's policy is, but it will tell you also what it's not able to guarantee. So it won't tell you bullshit. It'll just tell you how it is.

Tells you the facts. Yeah. Yeah, the facts. Yeah. So I think resistance would be around privacy for sure, right? I don't want myself out there. Resistance would be this is not a human, maybe, and that kind of thing. But like you said, just use your discretion. And I think we talked, you know, the other podcast that we had, we had an attorney on and he's like, this is so new, there's no regulation yet, right? So you are taking a risk of something being out there that's not regulated. They don't, you know, it's just, it's growing too fast. There's no laws in place or anything like that yet. But I mean, you can be very careful about how you phrase this to get the benefit out of it, I think.

Yeah, I think kind of obviously a concern would be if you were to use AI, and it would lead you to make a bad decision or do something, you know, it would give you kind of the wrong advice. And what I would say is that, you know, we do have a society, we tend to kind of hold AI to a different standard to what we would hold other human interactions. So I was listening to a podcast the other day on driverless trucks. And if you can imagine, you know, the standards that AI driverless trucks have to get to from a public standpoint would be much higher than what they would recognize. They're not going to accept many deaths from driverless trucks, you know, before it's like just not going to— get. And I think, you know, the standards are obviously the same, I think, for the way people use AI. And I'm not claiming, or from my own experience, to say that it's perfect, but I've yet to experience it say anything that would make me think that was bad advice.

Wow.

It just consistently gives me, you know, what I would say is solid advice. And it will also, you know, if in the past I had said to it once, like, you know, I'm gonna go up to London, and it was something about going to a dealer or whatever like that, and it was like, I'm not going to get involved in that. That's not something I'm going to allow you to talk to me about. And that will be it. So it does have certain built-in restrictions in it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, look, I mean, you know, like any human interaction, it's— there's going to be situations where it's not perfect. But for me, it's, it's, it's, it's been really, really, really helpful.

So moving forward, what is— what are your recovery goals with, with AI at your side? What are you working on next?

So, um, Obviously, the big thing for me right now is my sexual template normalization.

Yeah.

I want to try and slowly reintegrate, like, some kind of intimacy into my life that doesn't involve crystal meth. And, um, you know, that, that is, that is, it's just going to be a challenge. I can see it from multiple ways. But the idea is, is that I'm gonna, you know, if, if certain things come up to me as being potentially something I could be aroused by and it doesn't involve drugs, then, you know, that's probably something worth sharing with the AI. And it might be able to kind of map out a kind of a way that I might want to do that in, in a healthy kind of way. Or, for example, you know, just finding friends who I can be intimate with but not necessarily sexual, because I'm not really feeling sexual without chems at the moment, then, um, you know, that, that's, um, another angle. But, um, I would almost certainly continue to, to use it with, you know, whenever cravings come up, and, um, to share about, um, yeah, you know, whatever, whatever really comes up. This could be in relation to my using or not, but if it's just to do with my recovery, I mean, it can And recovery can often just involve a lot about personal relationships with other people, you know. But I think also it's, it's really about recognizing that with chemsex addiction, it's first cue management. It's, it's removing the cues from your environment. Because actually something we didn't say about, you know, I've been able to go to South Africa where I've spent several months every year, and it doesn't even remotely occur to me to do crystal meth.

Yeah.

And yet when I come back to London or to the UK, the cue's fired and it's a completely different scenario. Now, that was really interesting to me. That was the beginning of me realizing, oh, actually, you know what? This isn't just an emotional thing. There's got to be something else here that's going on. And that was what was really interesting to me. And so I think kind of using AI to help notice when cues come up, so share little things that Because it's often the unglamorous little things that, as you said, under the surface where it kind of festers before you end up kind of using. And if you can share those kinds of things with AI, I think it's a helpful way for you to be able to try and put a buffer between the times when you have those cravings and, you know, whatever the action is that follows.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple of things there is Because we have short memories. This is why, you know, when I tell people about journaling, I have to go back and read yesterday's journal 24 hours ago to remember what I wrote, right? To bring it forward to today. So if you're, if you're feeding AI information every day, like 3 days ago you tell it, well, I saw this hot guy jogging while I was in traffic. And it made me think a few things, right? Well, 3 days later, listen, something like that could plant. Yeah. And like you said, fester and grow. And that could lead into 3 days later, you're having a major craving and major trigger, right? But you don't remember that. That's exactly right. But AI could bring that forward because AI will remember.

Yeah. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, that's why if you share it with it, You know, which is helpful to do, then yeah, for sure. It is, it is a little bit like having like someone, you know, a 24/7 journal right there by hand. You know, most people have their mobile phones with them. You know, you don't have to make it a big thing. You just say, look, I just was here and saw this guy, you know, thought about him, you know, felt something come up. And then, you know, it will kind of bring that back, you know, notice it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so what else did I not ask? What did I not ask that you want to make sure is included in the podcast today?

So now, you know what, I think we kind of have spoken, um, about a lot of the things that I felt would be helpful. I mean, there was obviously the, the thing, the element that what AI has provided me is this shame-free place to be able to, to, to, to share things. And sometimes You know, the thought for me of going to a sex therapist or even sharing about my sex life in typical 12-step recovery, you know, sometimes it's just, it's just, just, it's just, or with a therapist, it's just, it can feel awkward, you know. It's just difficult sometimes to really to articulate what's going on. And I just think with AI You have somewhere now you can go and share anything that's coming up for you in a completely shame— you know, in a non-judgmental way. It's just going to be completely free of any judgment. It's just going to tell you whatever the facts are that have been going on for you.

Yeah.

And that for me has been super helpful. Um, but yeah, I'm not sure if there's anything else coming up for me right now.

Okay, good. Well, that's a good sign. It's always a good sign that we covered it all. Um, thank you today. Thank you for sharing all this, um, today. And, um, I think it's going to be very helpful to a lot of people, um, also being very vulnerable about where you are in your recovery and Happy to, happy to talk anytime about sexual reintegration. It's a hot, hot topic. By the way, um, for the listeners to know, I am now in a— I'm getting my certified sexologist. Um, I'm going to be a certified sexologist from the Sexual Health Alliance and a certified sex educator. So that is going to add, I think, a lot of expertise and help for my clients, but also the hottest topic of chemsex recovery, which is sexual reintegration, especially for guys like you, Richard, who, who say like, look, my sober sex experience is so small, I don't know anything else besides chemsex sex, you know, Tina sex. And, um, how do I— where do I go from here? How do I rebuild this? Um, how do I reprogram my arousal template? What is my arousal template? You know, big questions that take a lot to answer, and that's the real work. I mean Quitting the substance, okay, but this then comes the actual real trench work, right? Um, so I applaud you for taking that on.

Well, thank you, you know, and thank you for having me on the podcast. It's, um, been a great opportunity to share something which— yeah, look, I mean, I'm just— I just want to say, you know, AI has been incredibly helpful for me, and I hope it might be for some other people out there. And it's just, uh, you know, it's been good to have an opportunity to share My own personal experience.

Great. Well, thank you for sharing. All right, guys, hope you enjoyed that. If you want to make a comment, like I said, you can comment on Spotify or YouTube. You can DM me, you could do whatever you want. Join in the conversation if you have questions. Richard, are you going to provide any kind of contact information that we could put in the show notes if anyone wants to contact you, or would you rather stay anonymous?

Yeah, I'll email you after the, after the call and just let you know what I can do. Right, cool.

Okay, sounds good. Perfect. All right, guys, thank you, and we'll see you all next week.