EP 2:45 Eroticism for Chemsex Recovery with Dr. Tom

If people are stuck in terms of like the psychology of what turns them on, because if the only answer, oh, it's only meth, meth is the only thing that turns me on. Well, you know, maybe you gotta start in a, in an exercise similar to this to see if you can find any themes for yourself. Yeah.

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as Crystal Meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use Stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Today we're talking about eroticism and probably erectile dysfunction since most of our conversation before this podcast started was about ED. But I have a return guest, Dr. Thomas Gaither. And Dr. Thomas Gaither was on our episode called The Art and Science of bottoming, which still stands the test of time as one of the most favorite episodes and talked about episodes that we've had so far. Um, really, it's interesting. And, um, and that's why I have underneath me right now a tennis ball, because when we talked about— I had, um, pelvic floor— I forgot what you called it now. Um, we, we talked about a, um, my pelvic floor was all fucked up and tight, right? Um, and you know, since then I've just, I've still kind of, I still have to purposely let go of the Kegel. Like, I am always tight.

Clenched.

Just always wound up and clenched. Even I could be walking in nature and it's so serene and I'm like, why am I so clenched? Up right now, but that you know doing letting go of that and the tennis ball sitting on this tennis ball has really helped me a lot in feeling feeling not so stressed, but also my erectile dysfunction, blood flow. It's really helped loosen up things down there, so I appreciate you for that.

Yeah, well Dallas, I'm really really happy to be back, and it makes me so happy that you're on the mend, and it's the pelvic floor I can. Probably talk about ad nauseam. And there's so many people who are suffering from that problem and people get mixed up and they get diagnosed with like prostatitis or all these other things, but it's really just a muscle issue. And, um, we, a lot of people carry their anxiety and their stress and all that stuff right into those muscles. And they're like doing a Kegel all day long, like you said. So, um, I'm really happy for you. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm great. I'm very elated to kind of, uh, um, bring that conversation out to people.

Yeah, thank you. Hyper— hypertonic, right?

Yes, hypertonic pelvic floor.

Hypertonic.

Basically, the muscles are just super tight down there.

Yeah, yeah. So it's like your, your gooch. Is that the other word for it?

Yeah, the fancy word is like your perineum. So basically, the area between the scrotum and the anus. But right, also known as the gooch. Yes.

Yeah, because, you know, there was— I'll let you introduce yourself in a minute, but there was one time when I was using— it was, I was at a chemsex party, and you know that it's so common to not be able to get hard. And this guy was like, let me show you something. And he was like, showed me how to massage my gooch and like, like take your fingers and massage it up, and it brought blood flow. Into the penis. And it was like this whole big, like, cheat— cheat— what is it?

Cheat sheet or cheat shortcut? Shortcut?

Life hack. Life hack.

Yeah, life hack. Yeah, no, this is why I love the pelvic floor muscles because they have a lot to do with erections. And people who are carrying really tight pelvic floors, they got to relax those so the blood flow can kind of get into the penis. And so it's, it's, it's very important for erections, but it's also very important for bottoming, which we've talked about, and also very important for some people who just Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Dr. Thomas Gaither, will you tell us about yourself for those who haven't seen your, your other episode?

Yes, happy to. Um, feel free to call me Tom, but, um, I, um, I'm from Indiana originally. Uh, but I did, um, all my med school at UCSF in San Francisco. And I, I did, I'm a urologist by training. So I did all of my urology residency, uh, and then I did a fellowship in pelvic floor medicine. And fellowship at UCLA in Los Angeles. And I do a lot of research. I'm in academics now. I'm an academic urologist, and I am now back at the University of California in San Francisco. But I think sort of my sort of claim to fame is sort of working on issues related to bottoming. But I do research in all things sort of sexual health, and my particular area of interest is Of course, the MSM. Okay, so the men who have sex with men, gay bisexuals, how to help them before and after prostate cancer treatments, erectile dysfunction, you know, putting bottoming on the map, etc. As a gay man myself, it's just something that I think has been sort of neglected in urology. And, you know, we're very kind of heteronormative focused, as is the society in general. So it's just kind of been my passion to kind of Highlight some of the issues of queer health within the urology world, and yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now. And I love the aftermath aftermath after meth podcast, and so I'm really happy to be here again.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, you're like such a supporter of the podcast. I'm really appreciative of that a lot, and and I'm a supporter of your page, and so. I saw you on your page, your Instagram page, doing a series about The Erotic Mind. It's Jack Morin, right? It's the author.

Yes.

And I thought, wow, you know, that's such a, such a great intertwined topic. You know, what you talk about, you know, the urology and eroticism and how they're tied together. Then I thought, what a great topic for us who are trying to sexually reintegrate after, you know, the, the trauma and the effects of chemsex. And, you know, what's erotica? What's eroticism? And how can I interweave that into my sexual healing? And so I wanted to have you on and talk about what your findings were on the book and have a conversation about it. I do want to get into, if we can, erectile dysfunction. But not only that, is one of the big things I hear are guys who can't come at first when they start having, uh, sober sex. They have, they have, um, trouble ejaculating, I guess I should say. Um, and also if they're not watching porn.

No.

Although sometimes, you know, with me right out of my, my crystal meth addiction, I couldn't even get hard or come or have sex without porn in front of me. I mean, I was— it was so tied to my— in my brain because of the hours and hours and hours I watched, uh, when I was engaged in chemsex. Um, it took a lot to, to break that apart. So, you know, I'd like to talk about some of that too, if you'd like, when we get there.

Yeah, I mean, you just brought up probably 5 podcasts in one in that little statement.

Yeah, I did. I know, I know, I know.

I You know, I, the first thing that I think about when you, when you talked about is, is a little bit aside from eroticism, but it's this whole idea of, in order to get to the erotic mind, there are these accelerators and the brakes. And I think I've talked either, I talked about this before, or somebody else has. And it's actually a theory that I learned from Emily Nagoski. She's a PhD in sex and sexuality. And it's this whole idea that we can use things to get to our erotic mind that are things like the stimulators. And that's like porn, you know, let's just say poppers, let's just say, you know, 2 people instead of one, you know, like, it's like you're adding to things that kind of really turn you on, you're slamming on the gas to try to get to that erotic space.

Mm-hmm.

But there's also the brakes. And people always forget about the brakes. If your, if your foot is on the brake, no matter how much you're pushing these, this gas pedal, it's hard to go forward. And there's a million brakes out there, unfortunately, being, you know, things like depression, anxiety, self-hate, whatever you're bringing into the sexual encounter. And if your, your foot is always on the brake, you know, you can have 10 screens of porn going on at once, and it's still not enough to kind of move forward.

Mm-hmm.

And so I, that's just the first thing that came to my mind when you say that is this whole idea of, do people understand what are their accelerators, but what are also their brakes? And understanding the brakes, I think, is probably more important than, you know, adding some other stimulation to go forward.

Hmm, okay. Yeah. So what I would hear, what I hear most is men telling me, I got into chemsex because I was very sexually insecure. So it's either, either internalized homophobia, Or, you know, they, they wanted to top but felt like they couldn't perform, or they wanted to bottom and couldn't, like, you know, they couldn't perform, they couldn't measure up to the porn or whatever, or they're embarrassed of their penis, their dick size, you know, because if you don't, you know, you don't have a big enough dick, forget it. For the most part, right, is the attitude that, that we get, you know, in anxiety about whatever. And so I think, I think that those are the biggest brakes that, that we have in sexual, sexual reintegration going forward. And so what, so what is better to do here, like alleviate the brake or the ex— or increase the accelerator? Like, I guess you have to let the foot off the brake, right?

I would say that that's what you got to focus on more than anything. And I think that's where people get in trouble in terms of the gay community in general is You know, I always say that gay men have a large sexual appetite, meaning that, you know, a lot of us have been in a lot of variety of sexual experiences where, you know, it's not kind of— they're not all just plain Jane, sort of, you know, one person and you're with them forever and one night you try anal with them, or, you know, it's like, that's, you know, there's a lot of things that we have kind of adapted to to keep revving up the, the accelerators. Like, okay, we're gonna try our first threesome. Oh, we're gonna try poppers. Oh, we're gonna try meth, you know, or there's this thing that we're kind of Again, we're just revving up these accelerators for some people when you wonder, is there a kind of more sustained way to get to the erotic mind via addressing things like these breaks that you're discussing? And, if you're always feeling really guilty after sex, like you come and then you're like, oh gosh, I wish I didn't do that. Or, There's all that's a good sign to say, like you know well why are you doing that and what what what's that about? And so I think that addressing those breaks are probably the more important issue, but they're of course the more challenging thing to do. Like how do you tackle internalized homophobia? Like how do you tackle things like you know anxiety that you've been dealing with for a really long period of time? How do you tackle things like body dysmorphia and the feeling that you know your dick size is not? not adequate, or you don't last long enough, and all of these things. And, um, it's not an easy process, but it's one I think that everyone should at least consider thinking about.

Yeah, I mean, I think underneath all this is mental health issues, right? It's a mental health— it's something to talk to a therapist about for the most part.

Yeah. Yeah, agree. Yeah, I don't have much to say on that one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so I would say, you know, that's a good start to, to if you are having issues getting back into on the horse, as they say, is look at what is the break and specifically have something to go to a therapist about or a coach or somebody to say, I have internalized homophobia, or I have anxiety about this. Let me focus on that only. And it seems to me that then go back to the sex, right? Later on, possibly. And so we're talking about getting to the erotic mind. So is that a part of the brain then that we, that we should access? And what happens? If we do. Yeah.

What is the erotic mind? We can start there. And yeah, it's a state of mind. So it's okay. It reminds me a little bit like sleep. You know, it's like once you're sleeping, if that's your state of mind, right? You're, you're not, you're not alert, you're dreaming, you're doing these sorts of things. And it's also an important thing is it's an autonomic process. So, okay, you don't just turn a switch and you go to sleep, right? You have to kind of like pretend that you're sleeping. You have to like, you know, close your eyes, all these things. And eventually you just fall into sleep. The same thing is like that for the erotic mind. And the erotic mind is basically that space in your head where, you know, you're aroused, like you either have genital arousal, you're feeling very horny, you're like on that road towards orgasm. And people can slip in and out of the erotic mind, of course. And that happens all the time. Like you're in the middle of it. And then you're like, thinking about the dishes, or you're thinking about like your side fat in the mirror there or something, you know, and that can kind of bring you out of it. But it's really a state of mind. And like I said, it's an automatic process. It's— and how do people get there? One way they get there is through fantasy, right? They think about things that are hot in their head or things that have happened in the past that kind of get them there, or they're staring at the person in front of them. And, there's something about what they're doing that is getting you to that space. And so, I definitely think if you look at MRI studies and whatnot, there are distinct areas in the brain that are lit up on fMRI studies during states of arousal. And, this whole book that I was talking about on my my page really was about highlighting some of the things that get people to that erotic space. And his framework is more from the psychological perspective. It's not like, you know, the nervous system, you take this medication, this, and your brain all of a sudden gets into this space. But it's like, how do you psychologically sort of trick your mind to get into that area? And I just found the whole book very fascinating and Very interesting.

So what I'm— what I hear a lot, if you're listening, that for the listeners, um, is that a lot of people tell me, a lot of guys say, I've been, you know, quote unquote clean, I've been meth-free for 5 years, I haven't even thought about sex. Like, I'm not— I don't— I'm not horny, I don't have a libido, I don't want sex. They— it seems to me that they must be cutting off their erotic mind or somehow have a block on feeling eroticism and arousal. Isn't it a natural function of the body to get horny? You know, yeah, especially as a man.

Yeah. And I'd be curious to hear what you think those— the reasons are for that in these, in these people. And the— because I almost think of it as You know, methamphetamine is a big dopamine boost to the brain. There's a lot of things that are changing in terms of brain chemistry, and that has probably hijacked the brain a little bit to where it's kind of changed the amount of receptors that are in the brain. Not saying that the brain is plastic, the brain can change, but it takes a lot of time for the brain to change.

Right.

It reminds me of people who take Adderall. So if you take Adderall, which is another dopamine sort of stimulant long-term, there is evidence that there's downregulation of receptors in the brain, right? So, um, you, you kind of become more dependent on it in that sense in order to have focus and concentration. And I'm wondering if there is also a sort of dependency for it in terms of getting to the erotic mind, that there's something about the methamphetamine that get you to that space faster or, or, or whatnot. And then now without it, you know, it's like, gosh, what do I— am I— what am I going to have to do to feel horny again? And I think the answer there is you're gonna have to be patient. That would be my thought, because your brain really probably needs to have some restructuring without this chemical on board.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, so a lot of these men As soon as they have a sexual thought, or a sexual fantasy, it switches over into meth, a meth craving. Or, you know, we try to talk about mindful masturbation, we talked about that recently on this podcast. And they start trying to masturbate without porn, but the fantasies they bring up are meth fantasies. It's a craving, right? So in my view, the ones who haven't had sex and aren't accessing eroticism, It's out of fear, right? Like, they, they've put a block on it that I can't think about sex because I'll think about meth.

Mm-hmm.

The real, the, the real work, and it's the difficult work, is untangling the sex from meth, is retrain— retraining the brain to be aroused by scenarios and people and things that aren't meth-related, and to find out, like, what aroused me before meth That's part of my natural arousal template. Let me, let me take that and return to it without meth, right? And then what are some things I discovered during chemsex that maybe I do— it is something that will arouse me now. It takes some really dedicated time, consistency, and patience and work to, to— like you're saying, the brain is plastic— but to rewire it all up there. But I feel like Looking at this book, I feel like this would help the listener to begin to access the eroticism in a new way without the myth, you know, to kind of rewrite and author their own erotic channel, their avenue to their erotic mind.

Right. And actually, can I offer something from that is, you know, an exercise that anybody can do. is, and this, I got this from the book, which is, I think, so cool. And I actually learned some stuff even just about myself, is, is the way he studied eroticism was he would have people recount what he would call peak erotic experiences.

Okay.

And I think if you are recovering from meth, you can't, you can't first choose the ones that were during methamphetamine, right? You got to go before that, right? You got to, you got to think back. And you gotta just write down everything, like in a journal.

Yeah.

Write down everything about that scene. Who was the partner? What was your relationship to them? You know, where were you meeting? Was it in public? Was it in, you know, private? Just write down every little detail that you can possibly imagine and do that with, you know, 3 to 5 peak erotic experiences. It can be with the same person. It can be with different people. And, you know, do it just like writing it down, detail for detail, and then just, you know, come back to it a few days later and see if you can notice anything between these themes. Like, what are, what are some things that are, are similar between these experiences that can give you an idea of what is your kind of roadmap to eroticism?

Mm-hmm.

And I, I think it's a really great exercise, and that's literally how he wrote this whole book was studying people's peak erotic experiences. Uh, so I, I, I think that's one sort of thing where if people are stuck in terms of like the psychology of what turns them on, because if the only answer, oh, it's only meth, meth is the only thing that turns me on. Well, you know, maybe you gotta start in a, in an exercise similar to this to see if you can find any themes for yourself.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. So I did a little research. PEEs is what I call it, right? Peak erotic experiences.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, and you want to, it says, you know, want to involve the specific psychological elements that got wired together.

Right.

So for instance, maybe a, I don't, okay. So these are peak erotic experiences. These are intense sexual memories. Does that mean they have to be positive? Because here's why I ask is a lot of men are into what, what makes the transition into chemsex easy is that it's that a lot of the sex is like seedy, sneaky, you know, like cruisy. And it's because when they first came out, they had to sneak around.

Mm-hmm.

To have sex because of whatever, you know, they weren't out or, or whatever. And you met and you did carplay, like my first experience was in the back parking lot of Lowe's. But, you know, and so that was a peak erotic experience for me because that was my first time touching a man, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I'm just wondering, I'm also wondering about in early, like early experiences of maybe that weren't, quote unquote, good, like a molestation or, you know, a forced sex experience. I wonder, should they— what is the rule? Does he talk about the type of experience?

He doesn't specifically state that out loud. But I think if you kind of read between the lines, he's really talking about experiences that you enjoyed, and that you felt like was very erotic for yourself. And, you know, it can be kind of dicey because I have talked to people who have had, you know, childhood, you know, molestation, you know, issues with that where then later on they do find kind of forceful play as something that is turning them on. So there is some sort of kind of co-wiring with that. And I call it kind of imprinting. Like, I think your first sexual experience or that first peak sexual experience does some sort of imprinting on your mind that you kind of again associate that.

Mm-hmm.

With the erotic mind and a cornerstone. And he talks about this in the book too, but a cornerstone of eroticism is violating prohibitions. Okay.

Yes.

Violating prohibitions. And this is for everybody. Okay. This is gay men, straight men, lesbians, you name it. Like if you're doing something that society tells you kind of you shouldn't do for whatever reason, It is erotic. So yeah, it is erotic. So, you know, people meeting in the car, you know, I've had car sex before too, you know, it's like this idea of like, you know, being in a place that you shouldn't be in, you know, there's just something about it that just completely, you know, turns you on and gets you into that erotic space. So I think learning about it and knowing that about yourself is, is, is, I think, valuable. Some people say like, oh, once I learned about this, then will it no longer be, you know, that much of a turn-on. But I think you can be crafty with, with what your kind of core corner, you know, eroticism turn-ons that you can kind of use in ways that are a little bit safer for yourself. Things like just roleplay or like imagining that sort of things that are happening in that sense can also be very valuable for some people.

So, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I want to go over the 4 cornerstones because you've already started. One of those is the violating prohibitions.

Yeah.

Or I mean, yeah, prohibitions is violating prohibitions. Yeah. Yeah. Crossing boundaries, breaking rules.

Yeah. Crossing boundaries.

Yeah. That's why sex in a church was always one of these things for me because it was like, you know, getting back at my upbringing. Yeah. Right. Totally. Yeah, I mean, that's what made it thrilling and somehow erotic, right?

Yeah, yeah. And one of the issues too, I mean, just to go along with this same one, we can go to the others. But, you know, this one I think is a very common one that is, that gay men talk about, and in terms of violating prohibitions, and some people will even say, you know, once they come out, there's a little bit of the eroticism that's lost because the idea that when you're in the closet and you're, you know, you know, having sex with other men, and you know, you're, you're, you know, doing on the DL or the discreet, that sort of thing, there is an erotic component to that, that where some people, you wonder why they stay in the closet for a little bit of time, is because there is such an eroticism around that violation of prohibitions that once you're out and say, okay, I'm gay, then it's like, okay, well, maybe this is less fun now. Which is a true thing that happens to people, you know, obviously, there's a lot of psychological issues that are really damaging to people to constantly be in the closet, constantly hiding who you truly are, which eventually I think provoke people to kind of get out of the closet. And I think there's been plenty of research that shows that, you know, coming out of the closet is overall good for people.

Sure.

But I do think that, you know, there is this level of eroticism that is at play when you are still in the closet.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's probably why when you look on the porn sites, like the top, the top videos are like Mormons and incest, incest, right? You know, it's like this prohibition violating that. I think that the issue with chemsex is we break the rules, you know, but it's never enough. Like, we're chasing the next rule, the next violation, and the next violation and the next violation. And that's why we watch the things we watch on Zoom that we shouldn't watch. And we, you know, there's a lot of really taboo shit that happens. It's, it's erotic, but the meth accelerates it so much that it's, it's never enough eroticism.

Correct. And I think it's the whole balance of pleasure and pain that's in our brain. You know, our brain is hardwired that if you experience the same thing twice, the second time is just not going to be quite as pleasurable as the first time. Yeah, that's right. And that is a fact of life. And I wish people would just kind of realize that, like, you, you can keep climbing up that stairs, but at what sort of downside to your own self here? But it's, it's, it's just the way our brain is hardwired to understand pleasure and understand pain. And I really learned that from a really fantastic book called Dopamine Nation. I don't know if you've read that or not, but it's a psychiatrist out of Stanford kind of talking about this whole mix of pleasure and pain that our, our brain is kind of hardwired for.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm in— I'm working on my sexologist certificate right now. And I don't remember the actual study. I don't know the name of the study. But That same thing they were saying is they had these rats, you know, and they, they had a rat, they put the 2 rats together and they were having sex. And this, they put the same female rat in with the male day after day and he stopped having sex with her. But they put a new rat, a new rat in and he was like going to town.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and it was like this, like the same thing over and over. We lose, it loses its novelty.

Correct, correct.

Which I guess is why these couples, these married couples, you know, after a while their sex lessens and they start doing maybe bringing other people in and opening the relationship. That's why, right?

I mean, I think that's certainly a jumpstart for a lot of people is that, yeah, well, then again, you're violating prohibitions again, you know, it's like, it's a boost for your eroticism. It's like, you know, we should only be be in our relationship together, right? And then, so it's, you have to, it's just a constant balance that I think people have to find for themselves.

Yeah.

Is, you know, what is your true relationship to sex? And are you on that, you know, hamster wheel where you're just trying to go up and up and up to try to, you know, get that boost of eroticism, you know, and, you know, where do you, where's that balance for you? So it's a tough thing for everyone to figure out.

Yeah.

Whether you're into meth or not into meth, but I do think if you are into meth, Certainly, you know, that you're, you're chasing something that I think is going to be pretty harmful for you in the long run.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So one thing I want to go back to is the, the PEE, the, the— now I forgot what it's called already. Oh, peak erotic experience. So I like what you said about imprinting. And so for the listener, I would go back and just journal. Don't, don't try to judge what don't judge it at all. Don't label it. Don't try to, don't try to interpret it. It's just write down everything you can remember about your, your most intense, enjoyable experiences, right? Like you said, come back later and then try to draw inferences out of that.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and then what was, what were the aspects? Did you feel controlled? Were you in control? You know, like the different things like that. Like what, what are the symbols here? And that can start to help you assemble kind of what your, your blueprint, your sexual blueprint is.

Totally.

And that could really look— for those of you that aren't having sex at all, this could be a really good way for you to start revving up the eroticism as long as it's not, you know, it's not tied, tied to meth because this is something— it was a peak erotic experience. And so, you know, it's something that arouses you. Of course, I wouldn't take your peak erotic experiences from chemsex. To a degree, you know, maybe a, maybe a little bit, I would go beforehand. The issue is going to be, and I can already hear the comments, is that some of these guys that I help have never had any experience with sex besides chemsex. Mm-hmm.

So well, I would say, yeah, yeah, I would, I would, I would say I would challenge them to think about, you know, what were some of the Psychological, social things that were maybe going on outside of the drug per se? Was it, was it that? What about that person did you really like once you guys were both on meth? You know, sometimes when people are on meth, you know, the veils come down and you really share true things about yourself. Was it, was it just being vulnerable with somebody?

Yeah.

Was that, is that something that was really, you know, nice for your eroticism? Was it Somebody that you've been talking to for quite some time and now you finally guys met up? Was there some like longing component to this? You know, what was it? Or was it that you guys were having sex in some public place or something? You know, like, was it— what's some violating some prohibition? Well, what prohibition could maybe you violate with sex that maybe is a little safer for you? You know, like, so there, if you understand these sort of themes or cornerstones for yourself, I think it's useful that you could help trick your mind, you know, to really feel that eroticism in natural ways.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we just think of— we'll think about ways to violate prohibitions. And then the first one, he talks about longing and anticipation, the buildup of desire. And I think— but before I let you talk, I don't, I don't want to dominate here. But the buildup of desire in terms of sexual reintegration, if you are— what I have, what I tell my clients is, you have to think about Instant gratification, right, and delayed gratification in terms of when you are, when you are thinking about sexually reintegrating, when you're rebuilding your template. When am I, when am I in a hurry? Like, when am I needing instant gratification? Like, I gotta fuck right now.

Right.

Or when am I gradually building with somebody, or gradually just building with, even with the app, like building up but not going out to hook up that night? And that's what comes to me when I see this longing and anticipation. Does that, does that resonate with you?

That jives with me completely. I mean, it's, I think in the gay community, we're so used to just like instant gratification with sex for sure, you know, it's like we can get on Grindr, Sniffies, this, that, or the other and find some sort of sex pretty quickly, you know. But again, I, then you have to use these other tools to get you to that eroticism because again, it's like, okay, we gotta have poppers or, you know, meth or this or that or the other to like really, you know, have that scene when in fact, you maybe could just talk to them for a bit and build up some longing, you know, like this idea that like, what could it be like where you get a taste of something, but you're not, you're not jumping to sex right away. And when you finally do get to the sex, trust me, you're going to be in that erotic mind. You're going to be there, it's going to be, it's going to feel really, you know, like what you've been waiting for, kind of anticipating, as opposed to if you kind of jump right into it. Yeah, sometimes it can be really hot and erotic. But you— I think what I would question people is like, are you using other things to kind of get into that space, as opposed to, again, tricking your mind almost to get to that erotic space? So longing anticipation is a really interesting one. And this is one that's very common for straight women. So if you look at, you know, actually, the erotic mind in general is where you find the most differences between like gay men and lesbians. So like, we're on the— we're on 2 different spectrum.

Oh, interesting.

Of what turns people on. And, you know, straight people are somewhere in the middle. I love lesbians. And it's always funny that like gay men and lesbians are kind of put together in a box. But when it comes to eroticism, we're like the farthest from, from how the erotic mind works. And it was really interesting. He talked about it like 83% of lesbians have some sort of power, some sort of power theme to their eroticism, which is not as common in gay men. But anyway, so I think, you know, longing is very common in straight women, this whole idea of like, you know, they— the romanticism behind it, the like the moments right before that sort of thing. But this is an erotic trick that can work for anybody, you know, it's just something that has to be kind of thought about. And how do you— how do you not jump the gun so far and just like, kind of sit with it for a little bit before engaging into sex. This is just one way in which that when you finally do have sex, you know, I think your ability to get to that erotic state may be easier.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's got— there's a difference between horny and eroticism, right? Isn't there? Like, I'm horny, or I'm in my erotic mind. I mean, there's got to be— there's got to be a spectrum here, I would say.

Yeah, I mean, I I've been wanting— this is like such a random thing to say, but I've been wanting to study horniness for the longest time. That's a really weird thing to say, you know, but this— like, what is horniness? Like, what is it? Because it's like, is it this anticipation of the erotic mind? Like, you're horny, you like want to get there, but you're not there sort of thing. And many people can get into that erotic space really easily. I mean, ask any 18-year-old, 20-year-old, 22-year-old, they're erotic. They can get into that erotic space.

Yeah.

Really quickly. Yeah. And so yeah, I don't know how I would define horniness versus eroticism. But I typically think of like being in the erotic mind is like, okay, you're in, you're in that sexual space, all you're thinking about is sex. And it's like you're on the mountain towards getting towards orgasm, not saying that you have to get there quickly. But I'm just saying it's like you're, you're on the train tracks towards orgasm. And when I think of horniness, I don't always think of You know, you're like on the train tracks towards, towards orgasm per se, but I think it's more of like you're, you're, you're wanting to seek out sex.

Yeah, right, right. And I think just like, you know, it's just like anything else. We can't stand to feel something for very long, right? Like, we feel horny, we got to jack off, or we got to fuck, right? Or we feel uncomfortable, we got to solve it. Right? We feel, we feel bored, we got to be on our phone. It's almost the same thing. And if, if you could just be horny for a while, you know, let it, let it build up, let it build up anticipation, longing, like, delay it and delay it and delay it. To me, that, that breeds an erotic type of atmosphere, like a primal almost.

I hear you. Yeah, it's all about impulse control, right? I mean, yeah, it's like our brains when we're, you know, so pleasure seeking in whether that be getting on your phone or meth or whatever, it's like we get that trigger and we do the urge. I mean, we do the impulse, we do that impulse behavior. And your brain is constantly in that circuit all the time. And if you're going to jump off that circuit and go down a different path, you're going to have to sit with the urge. You're going to have to sit with the trigger. And it's a hard thing to do, even with boredom. I love that example. It's like, that's an experience that I get all the time. You know, it's like I'm on my research day. I'm trying to think about what next to write. And I'm like, kind of bored and like trying to grab my phone and like, okay, what's the next thing I can do? You know? And it's like, okay, maybe if you just sit with it for 5 minutes, 2 minutes, maybe even.

Right.

It's remarkable what you can— what can come from that as opposed to just automatically going with the impulse.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it reminds me though, some of these younger people who like to goon, quote unquote, like I sound like, I sound like such a fucking old, old coot when I'm like, there's gooner, you know, I called them Goonies the other day. I didn't know. I didn't know. But anyway, but that is, isn't that just building up and delaying and building up and delaying and building up and Isn't that kind of, and they're doing it to achieve a state of consciousness. Isn't that right?

Yeah. I mean, yes. Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with gooning or knowing gooners and this and that or the other, but yeah. Um, there, you know, the, yes, it is a little bit.

It seems like a very young, it seems like a very young thing, like whatever generation that is, but 20s.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. I will say those gooners, I have had some people. You know, again, your pelvic floor is like kind of contracting when you have an erection. And so if you're kind of trying to really prolong that, some of them do get a little bit of pelvic issues, pelvic pain problems when you're kind of like really trying to expect, because some of these people do it for like 3 hours, 2 hours, I mean, really long amounts of time. So sometimes I worry a little bit that it's a little bit too much. But in terms of the longing anticipation, I think of that more as like the situation with the person, like the psychological thing, as opposed to it being like a physiologic thing where you're trying to hold this erection to be a little bit longer.

Gotcha.

But, you know, I will say if you do just try to slowly masturbate, for sure, when you find the orgasm and all these things, it does feel very pleasurable. You know, there is like a— there is a little bit of a reward should you just try to Wait it out a little bit.

Yeah.

So I do, I do kind of get what you're trying to say here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think anybody listening, if you can just sit with anything for a long period of time, you're learning how to control triggers and cravings. You're learning how to regulate your emotions. You're learning, you're, you're really helping yourself So in so many different ways. But, but why not sexually? You know, you feel— just because you feel horny right now doesn't mean you have to resolve it this second.

Yeah. And I love how you use the term learning because I think that's what it is. I think, yeah, it's not something that you're just good at when you first start, which is right. Kind of, you know, it's, it's, it's your brain has to learn how to do it. Yeah. And right. It's just like if you're learning math or you're learning a foreign language. You're bad at it at the beginning, but with time and practice, you can actually be really good at doing this. So I don't know, just kind of, I wanted to highlight that word learning because I do think that that's important.

Yeah. And isn't your brain always trying to solve your problems too?

Always. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And it's not always, it doesn't always do a good job at it, but right.

Right.

But I think it is. It always is. I think from a psychological perspective, you're kind of always, you know, getting that lesson until you, you learn the answer sort of thing.

Right, right. Yeah. Okay. So this third one is searching for power. So dominance submission, dominant submission dynamics, which is huge, huge in our culture. And I guess, you know, actually heterosexuals too. I mean, there's totally a big dominatrix and all of that stuff, right? I mean, So what do you know about that searching for power in the erotic mind?

Well, like I said, the thing that caught my eye was that the whole lesbian thing was really fascinating. Yeah, that, you know, like 83% of lesbians, that was like a very big thing for them. And, you know, searching for power, I think, is a fun one because it's one that you can do a lot of roleplaying in, in terms of being the dominant or submission one. And as long as everyone kind of is understanding of what the rules are and whatnot of as you go into this sexual encounter. It's definitely something that can be free of drugs, can be free of, you know, you know, you can do this in private places. Like there's all these, all these sort of benefits, I think, of trying to hijack this one for your eroticism is what I'm trying to say is like, how can you use searching for power or using power play in a way to get you into that erotic space. I'm no, I'm no expert on BDSM or anything like that. But a lot of the BDSM though, they are hijacking this idea of power, like who has the power within this, within this relationship. And yes, there is some, you know, pain component of that. But I don't think there has to be. I think some of it can definitely just be Psychological. It doesn't have to be actually pain related.

Yeah. So if I'm building my blueprint, if I'm trying to get into this erotic state and erect mind, I'm going to be searching for, do I want to, you know, do I want to exert the power? Do I want to be submissive? Right. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting too that I've always said, the bottom is always in control anyway, is what I always thought. Even though they're supposed to be submissive, it's still under the guise of, yeah, but this is still allowed and this isn't. Right, right.

At least you should communicate that as the bottom, you know, what, what, what, what are you allowing? What are you not allowing?

Yeah, yeah. But it's so there, you know, it's still a power thing. But I guess searching for what, yeah, what role do I want to play? And, and why too, right? Because doesn't he talk about how trauma experiences could also get confused for erotic experiences, or they, or they can turn into erotic experiences?

I think that there's a lot of overlap there. And like I said, I think there's also like, again, the imprinting idea is like what your early sexual experiences, I think, do imprint this sort of erotic blueprint. And there, we can talk about this later, but at the end of the book, which I think was the most fascinating, is when he talks about when your eroticism isn't good for you.

Yeah.

And like, what are ways in which you get to be into the erotic state that may have consequences for yourself? Um, so anyways, I think that, that part of it was really interesting, especially from like a clinical sort of standpoint. But absolutely, I think that there is some sort of intertwining of trauma with your eroticism, as is things like just a simple thing like violating prohibitions. You, you know, jerk some guy off in the car, and then now all of a sudden you want to have car sex with everybody, you know. So I definitely believe that there is sort of an imprintation that goes along with all of this. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's— I think we've talked about this in the podcast too. And it's not any secret. But, you know, things like, if you were kind of abused by your father, let's say, that, that maybe that same experience still arouses you, or forced sex situation scenarios arouse you for whatever reason. And it's kind of you're reliving that traumatic, traumatic experience, because like you said, it was Listen, it was arousing. Even if it was traumatic, it was still sexually— there was something sexually heated about it.

Well, he actually talks about this idea of a core erotic theme in the book, which I—

which I—

this is where it gets a little bit, you know, I'm not a therapist, so it's— it gets a little bit woo-woo a bit. But he talks about like how your childhood, which is— well, it all goes back to childhood, right? But they say how your childhood sort of adversities is sort of what you're trying to almost overcome during the erotic states in that this is now a time to sort of express that. It's very kind of— the only thing I can say is that he says it hidden within your core erotic theme is a formula for transforming unfinished emotional business from childhood. and adolescence into excitation and pleasure. So that's a direct quote from him from the book. And one thing that people would say, you know, one example of this is like, I'm getting the attention I've craved all of my life. You know, this idea that somehow in childhood, you weren't getting the attention that you want. And now that you're like the, you know, bottom for 10 tops sort of thing like that, you're getting all of this attention. That, you know, that's just an example, I guess, of like, I'm, of how he believes that this CET is what he calls a core erotic theme shows up in your sexual experiences and shows up in your eroticism, which I find really interesting. I don't know if this will apply to every single person, but I think he's onto something there for sure.

Yeah. Yes. Unfinished. What can you tell me what that was again?

Unfinished. Unfinished. It's a formula for transforming unfinished emotional business. Emotional business.

Yeah.

From childhood and adolescence into excitation and pleasure, which I think is really interesting. I mean, you got to give it to him. That's a well, well thought out sort of theory. I don't know if, again, like this has been widely tested or whatnot, but I think for some people it'd probably jive with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, So I, in, when I was in the chemsex world, I wasn't too much of the, the leather, you know, the, the real bondage and all that kind of thing. My, I think I've said this on the podcast, I don't know, but my turn-on, my, my fetish was to be told that the guy loved me.

Mm-hmm.

Which ironically, I saw on a clip of a movie somewhere, a gay movie recently, the guy was like, tell me you love me. Like that was his, his erotic fetish. That used to be mine. And I'm thinking, that's definitely a daddy, tell me you love me. Unfinished emotional business.

Yeah. I know it's, it's so interesting, but also it's like, you know, it's, it's just a tool, I guess, you know, or it's, there's a relationship here. And again, it's like, now that you've seen it and solved it and healed it, like, is that no longer going to work for you? Right. Or maybe you don't want it to work for you anymore because you felt weird by it or something or whatnot. I don't, I don't want to speak for you personally, but yeah, it's this. So it is very sort of interesting. I'll give my kind of personal experiences that I grew up Catholic and you know, this whole idea of Catholic guilt, and guilt is a huge thing that is kind of put on you. You know, if you're having sex, you're going to go to hell and all these sorts of things. And, and the purpose of guilt really is to inhibit. But it, for me, it was also this sort of always doing something that I shouldn't be doing in a sense, like, and again, violating prohibitions and this and that.

Yeah.

But it's that the guilt can be turned into sort of a sense of of liberation or, you know, feeling, you know, liberated from that, you know, sort of Catholic guilt in the early childhood that I'm able to now just do anything that I want and I'm able to have sex with men and feel liberated from that sense. So I don't know, there's, I think there's a lot of—

Yeah.

If you ask people, you probably could get a little bit at this emotional Unfinished emotional childhood business. I do like that kind of phrase.

I do too. I like that. I'm going to use that unfinished emotional childhood business. Um, I got some business to solve here.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

But, and we solve it during sex.

Right, right. Yeah. Um, I, I think that the question is going to be, and this may be more for a sex therapist, right, is okay, like, for my, my experience, Okay, I know why that turned me on. Right? So now what? Right? Like, what do I do with that? It's not my fetish now. Like, I don't, I don't have anybody say that to me now. Because I've, you know, I've moved on kind of from— there's a lot that I've healed from and grown from. There's still though elements of— I still say there's elements of that in my relations with, with men in getting them to like me or approve of me or whatever, you know. So, but I think, I think that's going to be the next question is, okay, we've done the investigation. You know, we know what the core erotic theme is.

Mm hmm.

So now, now what does that mean? Like, can I, can I play into that? Could that be my roleplay? Could I ask, could I still, you know, in a, in a fetish scene, ask the guy to act like I'm his boyfriend or tell me he loves me.

Yeah, no, I think it sounds cheeky, but you'd be surprised that in the thing, you're just trying to have fun, you know, like you're just trying to be into that experience. And I think, you know, there's not going to be one solution for everybody. But I will say, if you're really kind of picking at that core erotic theme, or what I— not erotic theme, but the core, yeah, core erotic theme, you'll— I think there's just insight into just knowing that. You know, there's something about like, you know, when you were in it saying like, tell me I love you. I mean, tell me you love me, blah, blah, blah. You may not really have understood that behavior.

Yeah.

And I think when you don't understand your own behaviors, it can make you feel weird. And there's lots of things that come up from that. And just kind of having insight into your own self, I think that's always powerful. I think understanding your own psychology, understanding where all this is coming from really gives you the power to say, okay, I have this. I can use this for my advantage and it's not like overcoming me. So now it's like, I'm like, again, it's like a tool that you use as opposed to it just being part of who you— it just being like a, what's the word I'm looking for? But just being something that is automatic or, or, um, an impulse or, or whatnot. So, um, yeah, I don't have a great answer to, you know, what's the one thing you do when you know this? Um, and that is a great question for a sex therapist, but, um, Yeah. I do believe that having the insight on it will open up the doors, and you may better just figure it out on your own.

Yeah, yeah. At least, yeah, it's awareness is key, I think. Yeah. Which, by the way, that fetish was not very popular. Yeah, they got— they got— I think the guys, the guys would rather punch me in the face than tell me that.

Yeah, it's a hard ask, Dallas. It's a hard ask.

It is, it is. Especially, especially you have somebody who's traumatized about Scared of intimacy. Oh God. Okay, so the last one is overcoming ambivalence. So managing internal conflicts about desire. What is your take on that?

Pretty much nothing. That was my weakest. That was my one that I was— that was like, okay, maybe that's a stretch. And all theories are good to a certain point. But I'll tell you that one, I don't have much to say on that one.

I, I don't either. Like, I, you know, when I was looking at the Overcoming Ambivalence, they're talking about wanting connection but fearing intimacy, desiring pleasure but feeling unworthy, right? You're back and forth. So, you know, I guess if you look at it from a meth standpoint or chemsex standpoint, um, meth or mephedrone or whatever resolved the ambivalence, right, by obliterating any kind of conflict, right?

Mm-hmm.

You just went for it. There's There's no consent. There's no like this or that. It's, I'm moving forward, no, like a freight train, right?

Yeah.

Um, and so when you get into sexual reintegration, you are going to— you're going to say you're— there are 2 things. I want this, but I'm also scared to fucking death of it, you know? Because that's the thing is we're so scared of sex now, of failing at it, or what's going to happen, or being jealous, or this is never going to be Tina sex, right? Um, or just intimacy, it feels so vulnerable and you're raw. Like, I want it, but I'm scared of it would be really the only thing that I could, could think to tell the listeners out there.

It reminds me of— I've been thinking a lot about paradoxes, you know, that things, that things can both be true. And, and it's really hard to— it's, it's hard to grapple with that. And I think maybe overcoming ambivalence is a little bit like this. But, you know, the idea that sex is both good and it's bad for you, you know, like, it's, it's— and how do you deal with that? You know, it's like, well, sex got— brought me to meth and all these terrible things. But also sex brings you pleasure and stress relief and intimacy. And, and where do you— where do you lie along this spectrum that it can be both good and bad? And so I think that's just something that I've been kind of thinking about too, is this whole idea of paradox. And, and we— there's paradoxes in all portions of life that you have to constantly think about.

Sure.

Well, both of these things can be true. What do I do about it?

Yeah, that's right. That's so good. But this— it, it's, it's hardly ever this or that. I always say almost never. And that it's this and that. Always. There's always a third, you know.

You're right.

In anything. So in anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I'm just looking over my notes real quick, but I don't think— I think we touched On everything. I think, I think this, for the listener, I think buy the book, or, you know, research the book. Use this as a tool in your sexual reintegration. Try to build eroticism in your erotic mind. I think these are really important concepts that you can do to build that, that avenue to enjoy sex again, to feel eroticism, to feel something. I mean, oftentimes these men are so numb. coming out of this that they don't even feel anything, you know.

Totally. And, you know, I have to say, he has a whole section on the book too about these sort of problematic turn-ons and such. But yeah, the thing that I wanted to highlight was he did talk about this idea of loss of desire. And that's probably the most common sort of issue with eroticism is complete loss of desire. And of course, that can be from stress, It can be from sort of unresolved, you know, resentment or conflict in a relationship. You know, these sort of predictable routines sort of thing can squash things. But what he really, I think, was highlighted, which is something that stood out for me, was that diminishing sexual desire can be a sign of growth for some people. And that really stuck with me of this idea that maybe you shouldn't be having sex right now.

Hmm.

And your low desire is a sort of trigger. I mean, it's, it's the sign that you need to go through some growth here before, before it's time to have sex again. And that, that to me really, really stood out, you know, as this idea that, well, maybe, maybe having low sexual desire for some people is actually an okay thing for now.

Right? Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love that. And I admit, I haven't read the the book. I did look at a quiz, because I'm doing sexual reintegration courses in my— or presentations in my program. And he gives a— he gives an assessment of some type. I have it pulled up somewhere, the Sexual Excitement Survey.

Yeah.

That I've been looking at to research. But anyway, this idea that, okay, my sexual desire is, is diminishing, or I haven't had sex in so long. We do categorize that immediately as bad and as defective and as a fault of our, you know, that we, we're at fault somehow. There's something wrong with us. I love the idea of, you know, one of the tenets of my program is everything happens for me.

Mm-hmm.

Everything. So if you start to feel this contraction of desire, What if that's on purpose?

Mm-hmm.

What if that is on purpose for you to step back, reassess, and there's more for you when you start to expand? Because I think all life, all life is contract, expand, contract, expand. But when you expand, you expand farther, right? And you go back and forth. And so I really love this idea of really being curious about, okay, my libido is low. Why? In a way that is curious, not condemning, right? And maybe it's for a purpose.

Yeah. And I thought— and not automatically jumping to the point that like, oh gosh, I'm defective, you know, or, or whatnot, is that, right, my libido is low for now. And I think that's really important that, you know, what, you could probably get all of your hormones checked, all of this, that, and the other checked, and everything's going to come out normal. And, you know, no doctor's gonna say like what to do for you sort of thing. But it's, I think it's, I don't know, it's just something that really stood out to me in the book. And I think that happens to a lot of people throughout their life, even with or without meth. It's like they just went through a really bad breakup and they're not really feeling all that sexually desirable right now, or they're not really feeling like a high libido. And that is probably okay for now, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're listening and your libido hasn't come back yet. Maybe it's for you. Maybe it's for you because having libido is going to make you relapse.

Yeah, totally. I mean, that's a great way of thinking about it. Yeah.

So just be in it. Be in it for a minute. Okay, what else from the book did I miss? Or what else would you like to highlight, Tom?

So no, I mean, I think we covered most of the things that I wanted to cover. I mean, I think it's Um, you know, I, again, I really appreciate you talking about all of this, and it's just something that I, I think was very important for people. So I see a lot of people who could present with sexual complaints— erectile dysfunction, delayed orgasm, low libido, premature ejaculation. There's, there's all of these sort of performative aspects of sex that we in the medical field have labeled as Functional, dysfunctional, et cetera. And I, I've said this, I said this in the podcast last time, and I want to emphasize it again, but the brain is the largest sexual organ.

Yeah.

90% of sex occurs between the ears. And, you know, it's, it's really hard to fix someone's, you know, erections or premature ejaculation, you name it. If they don't have any insight on their arousal or their eroticism or the sort of psychological components of sex, because I think it's, it's so interrelated here that, um, you know, I don't think any one doctor is going to solve for you. You know, this is something that I think there's going to be lots of introspection and lots of things that you have to kind of think about through yourself.

Yeah.

That, um, in, in order to really, I think, get you, get you to where you want to go. So yeah.

Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I mean, I, I told a story last time. I'm not going to tell it again. But, you know, just one comment from just being in a safe space with somebody, oftentimes, you know, and again, like, going back to this fetish of being told that somebody loved me, right? I have— I had, like most men on chemsex, I had a hard time not being flaccid while I was high. But if you told me you love me, like, I would get hard on meth. Like, that's how tied— whatever the brain did, it shot a bunch of blood down there. You know, it's all up here.

Yeah, totally. And I think if you ask people about certain experiences, even when they have ED, like they come in with erectile dysfunction, And you ask like, oh, you know, you certainly can't think of one experience maybe where you actually were having a really great erection. And then, you know, sure enough, it was like that one hike in the park and, you know, their wife reached down in their pants or whatever. And there was just like, oh, this— yeah, certainly there was that time when— and again, there's like these distinct triggers in your brain. And what I think is so cool is like, what if you learned about them for yourself?

Yeah.

What if you understood that about yourself? For that you can again be in control of your brain and your body as opposed to it just controlling you. And I, I don't know. I think it's kind of cool. Kind of like that, that whole idea of like biohacking in a sense.

Um, yeah, yeah. That's the massaging of the gooch. That's biohacking, right?

Totally. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Back to the massaging of the gooch where it all started, you know, uh, is it all goes back to the pelvic floor.

It always goes back. It does for me.

Yeah, totally. Um, so anywho.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you. And I do, I do want to do a whole other episode, um, probably season, maybe season 3, but erectile dysfunction. Like, I wanted to do it premature, but also unable to ejaculate. That's another one that I hear a lot too, um, especially in the beginning of having sober sex is, I can't, you know, I can't come. And then, you know, to a lot of gay men who— if you can't come, it means you don't like me, right? Or, or you get in your head thinking, he thinks I don't like him.

Yeah, right.

And it has nothing to do with any of that. No.

Oh my gosh, definitely not. Delayed orgasm. Oh, we could talk about delayed orgasm probably for its own podcast. But yeah, for sure. I mean, there's so many things that are going on for delayed orgasm, one of which the most common thing is, of course, is just people are on an SSRI. So, you know, if you're on an SSRI, it just delays your time to orgasm. And there's a lot of things that can be done for people with delayed orgasm. But I'll tell you, one of the things, of course, is still understanding your eroticism, still understanding what, you know, what turns you on and whatnot.

Yeah.

And, and also getting away from the idea that sex always has to be performative. And that, like, there's this start, there's this middle, and there's this end. And if people can kind of break away a little bit from that, that sort of framework, I think they would give themselves a lot more freedom to experience pleasure because that, that I think is what ultimately sex is about is, is pleasure. And if you get pleasure, great. If there's orgasm, no orgasm, you know, of course, there's, you know, goals that people have. And, you know, I get that. And I want to help them with that. But at the end of the day, I want people to experience pleasure. And I think, yeah, um, that should be the main goal here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good.

Thank you. Well, I forgot to mention that there's this supplemental study guide that will come out with this episode. The link will be in the show notes, and the link can come to your email if you go to drdallasbragg.com, go to blog, and subscribe to my email list. But this will be a study guide that you will want to incorporate into your recovery. And I would use it with the book, you know, use it, buy the book and use the study guide with the book. Um, I didn't do my spiel at the beginning, but, um, thank you so much, Tom, for coming back.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Such a, such a pleasure. And I'm going to be out in LA in April for a conference, so we should definitely—

But I'm in San Francisco now.

Oh, that's right. That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

But if you're ever in San Francisco, please let me know.

I will. I will. That's right. That's right. You moved. Yeah, I will do that. Okay. All right, guys. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please join in the conversation by commenting on YouTube or commenting on Spotify, or you can just send me a DM and we'll see you next week.