EP 2:47 Healing Relationships Post Chemsex

You know, can we start small and not put the expectation that we're going to have exactly the same kind of sex that we had before and that it's, it's going to feel the same way and look the same way? It's probably not. And there's a grieving process that goes through that and that people have to go through around that. And when you go through a grieving process, then there's a lot of possibility and hope, but it's, it's going to take almost like, you know, if there's been a fire, how do you rebuild? You have to—

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive of patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I am your host, Dallas Bragg. Today we're going to bring to you a very important topic, and one that I get asked about a lot and one that I, you know, I think I answer well, but probably not as well as it's going to be answered today. And that's About relationships in terms of one person using, one person not, or maybe both using. But I get a lot of messages from you guys who say, I think my partner is using chems. I'm not sure what to do. Or I know my partner's using chems. Am I doing the right things? Am I, you know, what do I, how do I help? And those kinds of questions. I've had We do have a podcast if you're interested with Joey, where he was the user. He was a client of mine. He was using meth and he talks about how he and his partner healed from it and got through it. But I have a specialist on today, Tom Bruett, and he's going to talk to us from a therapist, from a credentialed therapist's point of view. Most of what I'm saying is probably, you know, I don't know if it's right or right, but we're going to find out today if my advice stands up to what you have to say, Tom, but I'm going to introduce you real quick. Tom Bruett is an LMFT-CST. He's a sex and relationship therapist, a trainer, consultant, and an author who works extensively with the queer community. He is the founder of the Queer Relationship Institute, which provides therapy for queer folks and training for therapists who work with queer relationships. That's great. Tom has trained under Drs. Ellen Bader and Peter Pearson in the Developmental Model of Relationship Theory. therapy, sorry, which he now trains other therapists in. His book, The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men: From Honeymoon to Lasting Commitments, is published by JKP. Tom has been on multiple podcasts including Happy Healthy Homo, Sex and Psychology with Justin Lee Miller— I know him— and The Couple's Therapist Couch. He's also an accomplished speaker and presenter and has spoken at national conferences like AASECT, In his downtime, he loves theater, travel, and collaborating with his partner to keep their rescue dog Millie from causing too much mischief. I love it. You can catch his Instagram @queerrelationshipinstitute and his website is www.queerrelationshipinstitute.com. And we will have those, of course, in the show notes. Welcome, Tom, to The Aftermath.

Thanks for having me, Dallas. I'm really excited to be here and talk about this very important topic.

Yes, yes. And you have your book in behind you. I'm going to hold your book up here for those who are watching, The Go-To Relationship Guide for Gay Men. I'm studying it as I prepare to ever be in one. But I, you know, it's really set— this book is really set up. It's really set up in a way that I get because I love the questions at the end, because anything that I put out, I always put reflective questions and journal prompts. And you have all of that at the end of all the chapters. And so it's something that I can work through and I have been working through. It's something you could work through with your partner, right? Or your boyfriend or whatever. Um, I really love the way you set it up. So great job.

Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to make it practical so that people could actually, you know, take the concepts and bring them into their own lives.

Mm-hmm. And I noticed, I think I read— hold on a second, we are live streaming, so let me turn that off. We are live streaming to YouTube for a minute. Sorry. Um, I think I— so AASECT, I am— have you— do you— are you associated with SHA too, the Sexual Health Alliance?

Yeah, I actually did my training through them.

Oh, nice. So I am enrolled with them right now to become a certified sexologist, sex coach.

Yeah, it really— I learned so much through that program because even as therapists, we get just a very little bit of training on sex and sexuality, and I've been working, you know, in the queer community for a long time, so we We get a lot of it just kind of in our work, but it's been really helpful to actually train under people. And, you know, some people have done some work ahead of us, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Right, right. Well, it's really stretching me. It's really helping me be more inclusive and tolerant too, because as things have come up, because I'll be honest with you, I have this— I mean, this podcast is not about me and my personal triggers, but I have this little bias, I guess, or trigger around open relationships. And it's not that I judge it, but I've had some experiences with it that are pretty negative and have kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. And I found myself generalizing all open relationships as this.

Yeah.

Right. Um, and so I'm really working through this and this training is helping me. It's bringing a lot up for me. And helping me be more, less phobic. I guess I was polygamous. I don't know if I was phobic in some way. I was being phobic in somehow, some way. But I'm really seeing it in a different, in a different light. And so it's, it's helping me as well. So I'm sure that you don't have those issues.

Well, we're all human.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

So anyway, thank you for coming on and So I really love in the book, and I want to, if we get to that, I want to talk about it, but you lay out the stages of gay relationships. And I would say the clients that I have in my program, and they have, they're in relationships, they either have husbands or partners. It adds such another layer of difficulty in trying to stop using.

Mm-hmm.

Because you have somebody else as well in the mix. Not only that is the Matthews seems to become the priority and the primary focus of the relationship.

Yeah.

You know, and so, but I feel like these stages, when I was reading through them, I was thinking of different clients and I was like, oh, they're in, they're dealing with that right now, but they can't effectively deal with it because they have to keep stopping and keep stopping and prioritizing this meth use. So I think if you're listening to this, what could be helpful is if you're on the tail end, you know, if, if you, if the partner, if you are the user and you stopped, this book could really help you with a game plan on, okay, now that that's out of the way, what do we do now? Right? Um, or if you're in the middle of it, Start studying it together anyway, because you're going to get prepared and just assume that this, you know, this use is going to subside. You're getting help. And so I really think this, if you're listening, this book is extremely— and I don't see a lot of gay relationship books out there. And I looked at some, but they're not as explicit and they don't, they're not as thorough, I guess, is a word. Expansive too. I mean, you cover a lot of ground in here, but it's so easy to read.

Yeah. Good.

It's so easy to read for me.

That's the goal.

I have to have easy to read. Um, but I wanna talk about, if we can, your experience with this in terms of therapizing couples where one's using and one isn't, or they're both using. Um, if, if I'm listening to this and that's my case, what would be some, some first advice for me and some steps to take? That you've seen that has helped?

So for a lot of folks, you know, attachment science is sort of the hit phrase in a lot of pop psychology right now, but attachment science being how do you attach and connect to a partner? And unfortunately, when we are in a relationship with a substance, especially a substance as powerful as meth, that becomes our primary attachment object. And so our relationship takes a backseat. And as long as you're in that relationship with that substance, it's, it's going to be very difficult to actually make a lot of meaningful change in your relationship because meth takes over your life if you're using it, you know, very actively.

So interesting that you— did I interrupt you?

Nope. Okay.

It's so interesting that you use the word relationship with meth. I just really didn't think it did. That just hit me that if you're in a relationship, there's actually 3 people in this relationship, one being, one being meth, right? Yeah.

And people as humans, right? We're never going to be as powerful, exciting, alluring as meth. And so it really makes it very, very difficult to, you know, work on the dynamics in your relationship if the meth is taking up a lot of the space.

Mm-hmm.

And time.

Mm-hmm.

People don't like to hear that, but it's, you know, I think it's a really important message to hammer home. Hmm.

And I'm guessing the partner that's not using maybe feels like they've been cheated on. They're being cheated on with a— by the substance.

Yeah. And then there's so much betrayal and lying that happens with chemsex use, right? I mean, it's just sort of a part of the fabric of that experience. And so if you don't trust your partner, if you're the person who's not using and you don't trust your partner, it feels really risky to keep going back and repeating that pattern over and over and over again, unless you see some shift or some change or your partner's working with a coach or doing, doing some work on, on the issue at hand.

So what is, can you talk to us about attachment science?

A little bit. Sure. So attachment science started with caregiver and child relationships. And so it's It's a study that began in the early 1900s, and they were— scientists would observe a caregiver and their child, and they would put them in different situations and see what happens to the child when the caregiver goes away, for example, or there's something scary that the child is experiencing. Do they turn to their caregiver, or do they pull away, or, you know, what happens in that way? And other scientists kind of brought that into adult relationships. And we see something very similar in the way that we connect with our partners. So there's, there's kind of 2 main buckets. There's securely attached folks and there's insecurely attached folks. And under insecure, people either end up more on the avoidant side of things or they end up more on the anxious side of things. And some people actually move back and forth between avoidant and anxious. And so if you're in a relationship thinking about, you know, the anxious sort of stuff looks like, okay, is, My partner's out. Is he texting me? Is he gonna text me? When's he gonna text me? Am I gonna be okay? You know, your mind just runs and runs and runs. The avoidant side of things is more like, okay, my partner's out. You know, I don't care. I'm gonna go do my own thing and just forget about it. And, you know, I'm not gonna actually acknowledge that I'm worried or scared about what's going on.

Mm-hmm. So you are worried and scared, but you're not acknowledging it if you're avoidant. Yes.

Yeah, you're avoiding it.

Yeah.

And so, you know, oftentimes the— an anxious person will be attracted to an avoidant person because opposites Opposites attract. And then you get that familiar pattern of somebody feeling anxious and, you know, chasing, pursuing their partner, and then the avoidant person pulling away and disconnecting. And, you know, it becomes a dance of sorts.

Well, I have had one relationship, one male relationship, and that was it. I was the anxious, he was the avoidant. I mean, I couldn't even, there were days when I could not focus on my work if he had not texted me.

Yep.

Like I would stare at the phone.

Yep.

Just my stomach rolling, you know.

Very, very common.

Until they texted me. Yeah. And I think he held off on purpose because he's avoiding, right? So how do we relate that then to being attached to meth? Yeah.

So I think, you know, it's, it's, I haven't, I haven't really thought about it in these terms, but I think you could also think about, is your, is your attachment with meth anxious or avoidant?

Yeah.

Do you, or disorganized? Do you go back and forth a little bit? Do you spend, you know, are you able to compartmentalize it and put it away for the week and then bring it back out on the weekends? Or, or is it something that like, you know, when you're not with meth, you're thinking about it and you're dreaming about it. And it's, you know, this also probably correlates to how, how deeply or how often you're using. The more you use, probably the more anxious or disorganized your relationship is with meth. But, you know, it's probably an insecure relationship because meth can't love you back.

Right, right, exactly. How fascinating to think about what is my relationship with this substance. And so I wonder, I wonder if you are trying to stop, if you would go around about the same kind of tactics or same methods of, of if you're in a relationship. So what I'm trying to say is like, if I'm securely, if I'm, if I'm anxious attached, like, like I mentioned I was in that relationship, what would be some, what would be some ways for me to heal that or process that? Or, or do you ever get over that, I guess, is a question too.

Yeah, you do get over it. You know, you can work through it.

Right.

And if we trace it all the way back to our early caregivers, we, we usually have different attachment relationships with our different caregivers. So if you had a mom and a dad, you may be, you know, your mom may have been more neglectful or avoidant, and then you may feel more anxious. You know, you're worried, when's mom going to come back? When's mom going to come back? Am I going to be safe? Am I going to be okay? And then that can translate to adult attachment relationships. Relationships where you're like, okay, my partner's not here. Am I going to be okay? Am I going to be safe? At the core of these attachment wounds is usually the fear that you're not going to be safe or you're not going to be taken care of. And so a lot of this is— the timeframe can be different, but after a number of years of being in a secure relationship, you can heal those attachment wounds.

Mm-hmm.

But a lot of that internal work at first is like, okay, if I, if my partner's not texting me back, I'm gonna be okay. I'm, I'm, you know, a lot of affirmations around I'm valuable and worthy and I'm a catch and I'm gonna be okay even if that person, you know, doesn't text me back. It's like the self-talk and it doesn't, it doesn't always work well at first. It's, it's a muscle. You have to kind of continue to build that.

Yeah.

But if, if you're feeling super insecure in yourself, it's usually going to translate into your your romantic relationships too.

I think this is for, so for you listening, I think this is great advice for recovery, honestly, is that because when you get this craving that comes up and you want to, so for me, okay, let's go back to my example. I get this craving, my body starts shaking. I need to get that text. I need to get that hit. It's a dopamine hit.

It's an addiction.

Isn't it? Almost.

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't have the same chemical power. I mean, so I, you know, I don't want to use the word addiction because addiction is a very scientific thing, but it does work on the same receptors and it is, it's a lot, I don't want to say easier because for some people it's not going to be easy to calm yourself down and soothe yourself if you're not getting the texts, but you're probably not going to have that same physical dependence or, you know, Like you would with meth.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you sit with the hard emotion, sit with the affirmations and self-talk. I think, I just feel like a lot of this could be correlated over to how we deal with cravings, triggers, hard emotions. Yeah.

All of these self-soothing techniques are going to work whether you're talking about, you know, being safe, feeling more safe and secure in your relationships or feeling more safe and secure in your drug use.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when you're, when you're therapizing couples, um, one's using, one isn't, where do you start? Like, where, where could this, where could these guys start in terms of what do they tackle first? I guess maybe is a question. Yeah.

The, the, the first thing is often the hardest, and that is the honesty piece. So, so often in these kinds of situations, the person who's using is not being honest and transparent about it. Because their partner maybe has set a boundary and said, if you use again, I'm out. Or, you know, there's usually some fear that's, that's at bay for, for the person who is not being honest. But until you're honest, it's very difficult to do any of the other work because the worst thing that happens with, with this kind of stuff is when it's the slow drip, like a slow morphine drip, where, you know, one thing comes up and then you discover something else and then the partner discovers something else. And so each time—

Yeah.

It's like a series of multiple paper cuts that eventually ends up making you really, really, really, really in a lot of pain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So honesty is the foundation for the rest of it.

Yeah, honesty starts and, you know, the biggest thing that I often see is the trust gets broken. And so it's, it's not so much, okay, you went out and you used again and you had sex with people and You know, yes, that hurts, but it's really the dishonesty that rocks the whole core of the partner who's not using this experience. Because then it's like, what can I believe? What's true? What's not true? You know, and you're just telling yourself all of those stories and rightfully so. It's if you've been betrayed, you know, it's going to come out. And it usually comes out, right? People are not usually able to keep everything hidden. It usually always comes out.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing about chemsex is it's very difficult to keep it. It's, there are some clients I have that can go out for a couple hours and come back, you know, like 2 or 3 hours sometimes, but usually it's at least a day.

Yeah.

Right? Like you, if you're living with, if you're in a partnership and you disappear for 24 hours, you know, it's pretty obvious what's happening. Right. Yeah. So it is really hard to hide that. But, um, so I'm guessing rebuilding that trust is going to, it's going to take some time. It's going to take maybe tiny steps too, right?

Yeah. First, rebuilding trust takes time and new experiences. And so the new experiences would be, okay, I, I thought about using last night. I was super close and I didn't do it. Like even being able to share your thought process around it. And bringing your partner into the, you know, into the fold a little bit more. That's what's going to start building trust. Or gosh, I looked at porn that, you know, had men using and that made— that started my cycle and, you know, whatever, whatever. As long as you're bringing your partner into the small little, the small little steps that happen along the way, it's probably not going to feel comfortable. You're going to feel ashamed about it probably.

Yeah.

Um, but it's, it, that, that's, that's the kind of heavy lifting that is required to rebuild trust in these kinds of situations.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exposure, right? Exposure.

Yeah.

You know, I always say meth grows in the dark, just like black mold. It just grows in the dark, but the more light you put on it, exposure you put on it, the less it can, it can spread and grow.

And there's usually some reason people are using meth, right? Yeah, it's super fun and hot and wonderful at first, but there's some reason you keep going back. There's some, you know, there's, there's something that it, that some need that it's filling or hole that it's filling. And until the person using can get clear on that and, you know, start to do some work on it, it's very difficult to actually also repair a relationship or any, whether it's romantic or family or friendship or whatever.

Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. I'm glad you said that because a lot of people don't agree with that. They just say it's always the sex. It's always the sex. I don't think so.

No.

Yeah.

No. And, and, you know, it takes a long time for your body physiologically to remember what it feels like to have sex or to, to be without meth, right? That you can, you can keep that sensation for a very long time, which is unlike most other substances. And so especially with, you know, with sex, it, it, this is the, the number one thing. I'm a sex therapist. So the number one thing that comes up is how are we going to be able to have sex again after meth?

Yes.

It's, it's, people don't want to hear it, but it's not an easy, you flip a switch and it's enjoyable and fun again. It's, it's a process. It's, it's going to take effort.

Yeah. Yes. Let's talk about that. soon or next, but do you suggest, like, what the partner that's not using oftentimes they— as it blows my mind the amount of gay men that aren't aware of Tina and the chemsex scene. It's like, I assume every gay man must know about it, but there's been— they're like, what? I don't know what that— what do you mean? You get them from Grindr? What? You know, so, but That, what do you suggest for them in terms of educating themselves? But because what happens is when they find out the details of what the partner's been actually doing, that's traumatizing sometimes.

Yeah.

And, and it's hard for the user to be, to expose their, their cravings and to expose what they're doing without the other partner being shocked or coming across as kind of like shaming or judgmental. What, how do you, what would you say to couples for that?

I mean, that's why the person who's not using also needs support. And, you know, whether it's finding a professional or whether it's a coach or a therapist or group, somewhere where you can be with other people who are going through this because it's, it is a trauma. If you've, if you have no idea, if you have no experience to chemsex or meth and sex and your partner It's— you're just— you discover that your partner is practicing this, it can be— it can rock your world in a really, really, really, really powerful way.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so to feel like you can white-knuckle it and like, okay, I can do this by myself, you're dreaming because it's, it's just, you know, I worked— my early career was working in a men's rehab facility. And so in San Francisco, and a lot of the men that I was working with were you know, on, on one of their rounds of trying to be sober from meth. And we— I would host groups with, with, you know, bringing the family and the partners. And it's, it's really— a lot of people don't understand. And just getting a little bit of support from a professional, a professional who can normalize— this is, this is not unusual for people who are mixing meth and sex, right?

Yeah.

Like, it may not be what you want in your life or what you were hoping, but Here, here are some documentaries you can look at. Here are some podcasts you can listen to. How can you, just like if your partner was dealing with depression, it's your responsibility to learn about depression and what's it like to live with depression and all that kind of stuff. So I do think if the, if that partner wants to stay in the relationship, they're going to have some heavy lifting on their shoulders that they didn't sign up for, but it's, it is at, at their doorstep.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what I've heard the non-users say. Like, I didn't sign up for this.

Yeah.

Like, I, this, you know, we were, we were happy. And a lot of times I said I had a bias on open relationships, but, but oftentimes I hear the relationship opens and that's when the other partner, the more sexually active one usually gets trapped into the chemsex world because it's so easy to find when you're out there.

Yeah.

Um, and so it's like, wait a minute, I didn't sign up for this. And all of a sudden we have this whole new issue to deal with. Um, and oftentimes also I hear couples that say, you know, I, I can't meet the needs of, of my partner sexually. Like he has a fetish that I can't meet or something like that. And then he goes out and uses, and so he gets involved with chemsex. So now the using partner only wants to have sex with, you know, partners with chems. He doesn't want to have sex at all with his non-user partner. Do you see that often?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, and it's unfortunately, it, it, there does at some point get to be a moment when you need to have a line in the sand moment for yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes it is setting a boundary. And, but unfortunately, a lot of people who are not, who are the non-using partner in this dynamic, they'll set a boundary and then they'll walk it back and they'll set a boundary and they'll walk it back and set a boundary and walk it back. And then by the time they come to see me, they are so beaten down and, you know, over the relationship that there's, it's very difficult to, to kind of get things in check. If you set a boundary, you've got to stick to that boundary. If you say, if you come home again with meth and you use in the house or whatever, I'm done. You've got to be done. Just like a parent with a, you know, a child and a parent. If you set a boundary with your teenager and then you say, oh, well, never mind, you know, it's okay. Your teenager is not going to respect you and not going to respect that boundary. Yeah.

Yeah. I think Sometimes men struggle with when to set that boundary. Like, I see it when I talk to them in terms of they don't want to be, they don't want to be cruel, quote unquote. They want to be, they want to be empathetic to the addict's issues, you know, but at the same time, they, you know, at the same time, it's draining them. You know, so when, I mean, how, when do we, when do we know when it's time to say, you can't, you can't do this anymore? Like, you know, you have to stop. Like, when do we know when to draw that line?

It's going to be such an individual choice for every person who's out there because, because this isn't, this is not an easy experience. You usually love your partner. You've had good experiences together. You know, it's just, you're, you just think, oh, if I, if we just solve this meth issue, things would be fine.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's so often not the case. So that's why I think it's really important to get support, talk to an individual therapist or counselor or coach, like really make sure you're not doing this alone.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about that too. I mean, maybe the, the, the using partner stops using and then you're left with maybe the relationship wasn't working anyway. Does that happen?

It happens a lot because again, I don't think somebody goes out and, you know, sure, some people happen to experiment with meth and, you know, then become super addicted to it and it becomes a huge part of their life. But usually there's something underneath that.

Yeah.

And whether it's trauma or, you know, low self-esteem or there's something going on that's causing you to find enjoyment in that way or seek, you know, fulfillment in that kind of way. And it changes the brain unlike— I mean, you know this and you talk about it all the time in your work. It changes the brain unlike any of the other substances that we have out there. And it's, I mean, that's why it can be so destructive in our community.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So let's say that Let's say we have a success story. You know, the, the one partner stops using. He's, I don't know, 6 months, a year, something like that. I don't know. So we want to, as a couple, we want to have sex again. Like the partner that, the, the using partner, he's like, I do want to have sex with my partner, but I don't have the libido anymore.

Yep.

Or there's something, something's there where I'm not, I'm having trouble connecting. Like, what do we do in that case? What are What are some steps, I guess, or are there steps to tell that person, that partner?

First of all, it's, that's a really hard place to be. So I just want to validate that, like it's, it's, there is, there's no like A plus B equals C to fix this kind of an issue, fix this if we're going to call it, you know, say fixing it.

Right.

I think, I think it does involve expanding. And so thinking about how can you expand your view of what sex is. How can you expand your view of what intimacy is? How can you bring some more play into the, into the room? You know, so often as gay men, we have this idea that sex is— it has to be anal sex, there has to be a big orgasm at the end, and we have to come at the same time. And if somebody doesn't come, then, you know, it's, it's not a success. What about, you know, just giving each other erotic massages? And if someone gets hard or turned on, great. If they don't, there's also just the, you know, the being in your body and being embodied with another human. And that may be the place that you start, or it may start, we're holding hands and cuddling, you know, while we're watching a movie together. Maybe we're watching Heated Rivalry and, you know, getting turned on by that or something.

Yeah.

You know, can we start small and not put the expectation that we're going to have exactly the same kind of sex that we had before and that It's, it's going to feel the same way and look the same way. It's probably not. And there's a grieving process that goes through that and that people have to go through around that. And when you go through a grieving process, then there's a lot of possibility and hope, but it's, it's going to take almost like, you know, if there's been a fire, how do you rebuild? You have to, you know, start with the foundation and then build the walls and then you do the landscaping at the end and paint and, you know, it's, it's going to be a step-by-step process for people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's some, there's some clients I have or guys that I have that I talked to who say they're not attracted to their partner anymore after they've gone through the chemsex experience. Yeah, can you work with that?

Yeah, well, I think you have to really be curious about what does that mean you're not attracted to your partner anymore. Does it mean that, you know, you're only into I don't know. I mean, it really getting clear. What do you mean when you say you're not attracted to your partner anymore? Does it mean you're not attracted to, you know, the same kind of things that turned you on before you got into chemsex? Or, you know, is there— have you developed kind of a— or discovered a new fetish or kink that is intrinsically linked into what turns you on? Or has your partner changed? Or has your partner become this caregiver role and Now we need to kind of rediscover each other sexually because you've become my caretaker and, you know, for many people, I'm not attracted to my caretaker, you know, in a sexual kind of way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the other part that I hear is the non-user, the non-using partner says, I, I've become the parent here. Right? Is that normal?

Very normal. Very, very normal. And once that dynamic, because that dynamic may or may not have been present before the use started, and if that's a new dynamic, that of course is going to impact the desire, desirability, and connection and eroticism of a couple.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, the other scenario I see are the couples where it's just an arranged thing, like the other one is using, he's, he may be using in the basement with other guys, he brings them in and out. And then he just, he just emerges once in a while for sleep and dinner and, you know, engagement with the husband. And then he goes back out and the non-user partner hates it, but he feels like there's nothing he can do because he can't make him leave and he loves him. I mean, what, what do we, what does, what do we do in that scenario? To me, it just seems so hopeless and miserable. But I don't know.

It is hopeless and miserable unless you're willing to make another choice. And, you know, we, you, you setting a boundary could be the, the, the thing that brings that partner into treatment or really makes a big shift in the way things are going on. If you yourself, if you're the non-using partner and you collapse into hopelessness, it's going to feel hopeless.

Mm-hmm.

But if you can get support, And, you know, if that— the situation I'm imagining is maybe the person who's not using is financially dependent on the person who is using, or—

Yeah. Yeah.

And so that becomes really difficult, right? How are you going to go out on your own if you leave this situation where you're financially tied to this person? Could you go back to school? Could you, you know, get a different job? Like, at a certain point, you've got to I don't love the codependent, dependent sort of nature that can come with, with some conversations around addiction or substance use, but I do think there's, there is a piece of that codependency and the inability to hold on to yourself when you're in relationship with somebody else. And so that person who's not using has completely abandoned themselves and they've abandoned what's probably going to be best for their partner who's using in the long run too.

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, it is a moment where you may have to really think about what is your line in the sand? What is, what are you getting out of this relationship? And I know it's scary to think about being alone, but, you know, you're already alone.

You're already alone.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Interesting. What do you see as qualities of, and maybe you don't, maybe you can't answer this, but if you were to say You look at, looking at a couple in this situation, the most successful couples that, that make the best of this, what qualities do you see in their relationship?

Yeah, there, there's usually honesty, even if it hurts.

Yeah.

There you, unfortunately, the person who's using is, is usually not that far. They're not usually using that much, or if they are using a lot, They are willing to go to rehab. They're willing to, you know, really do something different.

Okay.

And that there has to be motivation there for the person who's using to do something different.

Gotcha. Gotcha.

Because, you know, and people may not like me saying this, but if you're, if you're in a relationship with someone who's actively using meth multiple days a week, you're basically alone, right? You're not really in, you're not able to have that emotional connection, that support, that partnership. You know, so it, and that's okay for some people that works for some people, that dynamic's okay. But if, if you, if what we're talking about is like a relationship that is deep and, you know, you can rely on each other, you can trust each other, you can build something together that's better, bigger than the sum of each of you individually, that's going to be very difficult to do with someone who's, who's using a lot of meth.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also loving someone is somebody sometimes means saying no.

Yes.

Like loving, loving them means that sometimes stepping away.

Yeah.

You loving them enough to leave. Isn't that true?

100%. 100%. I mean, we think about it with children, right? A parent who never says no to their child.

Yeah.

That child is probably going to grow up and have you know, some, some boundary and issues with relationships and being in society at large, right? And the same is true with, with the dynamics we're talking about here.

Yeah. I just think it's sad too that, you know, you fall in love with somebody and, you know, I had one of my best friends and I used together in the beginning and I've told this story here, I think, but I slowly watched him evolve into something different, someone different. Literally the light from his eyes just disappeared, just dimmed. And then he started accusing me of jailbreaking his stuff and watching him. And, you know, I was every empty square on Grindr stalking him, you know.

Mm.

And I just saw this person disappear. And I just imagine that in a relationship standpoint, you know, marrying or being in a relationship with somebody and then just watching them disappear to this drug, but holding on to like, I know who you are underneath all that. Yeah, that has got to be heart-wrenching.

It is devastating. I mean, some of the most heart-wrenching and moving sessions I've ever done have been like what I'll call the boundary session where the non-using partner says, I'm not going to continue this madness and I'll stand by you. You know, I'll financially support you to go to rehab. I'll be there for the family days, whatever, but like, you got to move out.

Yeah.

And that is on one hand, like you're saying, it's devastating. On the other hand, it's really empowering for, I think, both of those people. Because the way that things were going wasn't working. And I, I often like to say to people, like, meth is not a failing, or it's not a personal failure. It's— this is such— so much bigger than any of us individually. It's a societal thing, right?

Yeah.

I mean, meth fits this perfect void for gay men and the way that we've been raised. And, you know, um, I just, I just before we got on this call saw a study that Um, in, in up to 2020, there was more acceptance around gay men and lesbians, and the New York Times just published this, this research. And from 2020 onward, we've been backsliding in terms of the, um, acceptance of, of gay men and lesbians and bi folks. And it's, uh, it's devastating. But this does— this plants the seed and, and really makes it You know, I'm sure you talk about this a lot. Like, it's, it's just the perfect storm for gay men, meth and sex.

It sure is. It sure is. And internalized homophobia and all the rest of the, the reasons we've talked about, you know, on the podcast and on my content, um, you just get to step away from all the pressure of just being a gay man in today's world. You just get to step away. And, and I was thinking a relationship I wonder too, maybe you see this, is that it, the, the user partner gets to step away from the relationship problems too.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I, I myself have experimented with meth and, you know, the, the, the thing about it is it makes you feel like no other substance or experience does, you know, out there. And so once you've tasted that, if you don't have a strong enough sense of self, it's going to be very difficult to not want to continue to just, you know, Go back and go back and go back.

And if the relationship hasn't been grounded, right? If there's not a, if there's not a strong sense of the relationship either, I would imagine it's easy for the, for the user to, to find that, that, that place of, of freedom, right? And easy to, easy to drift off, you know? Yeah.

It's, it's rare that I have, and maybe you've had a different experience, but it's rare that people have come to see me Where the relationship was 100% perfect before substance use started. And so, you know, there's usually, again, it's not the partner's fault that you're using or anything like that, but there's usually something going on that, that sets the stage for chemsex.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I tried to coach and I was in over my head, so I'll never do it again. A couple. And so the client, I had a client and he brought his husband in or, uh, partner in, and they wanted me to coach them together. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but sure, I'll try. Right. And so I saw that I had seen this, um, video or something about couples therapy, but it was like the experience was one couple would say, this bothered me, right? The other couple, then the other person would have to repeat what they heard. And if they were right in terms of what the person was saying, then the other person could speak. So I would say, okay, I said to the first, the youth, my client, tell him what's bothering you. And he did. And then I said, okay, tell him, repeat back to him what he said.

He did.

And I said, is that right? No, that's not at all what I said. We never got past— like, so the exercise was you had to keep going back and forth until you both agreed that you were— that they heard the same thing. I mean, we never got past the first comment. They were speaking 2 different languages.

Yeah.

And I thought to myself, no one— I mean, this is deep. These, this is, these are problems way beyond my capacity. I told them, I was like, you have to see a therapist. You can't even have a conversation. And so that's when I was like, you know, this is not about meth here. Like this, this, this issue with this, these, this couple is not about the one using meth. This goes way deeper than that.

Meth is often a symptom, I think. You know, it can become the main problem very quickly and very easily, but I think it usually starts as a symptom.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's complicated. It's layered, isn't it? I mean, there's so much here. I really feel for the non-user couple, the person, because, you know, you have to sit back and then wait. The sexual reintegration process is— that's a long process, isn't it?

It's, it's, it can be a very long process. And, you know, the non-using partner, you may not be up for it. And if you're not up for it, the long haul, that's okay. You, you get to step away if that's what's best for you. And, you know, it's, you're not going to cause the person who's using to use more, or, you know, I mean, that's, that's what can be really difficult, is it usually when there is a breakup, the person who's using will spiral more.

That's right.

But it's not because Of, of something that the non-using partner did.

Yeah, it's good advice. They, they're making their own choices.

Yeah.

Right? Not because of you.

Yeah, we are adults.

Right. Um, in, in the container of that topic, is there anything that I missed or anything that you feel like I didn't excavate out of this that I could ask or would be important for us to say?

I mean, I think as we're talking, I'm just feeling a heaviness, you know, with this topic. And I think it's, it's important to just note that there is a lot of grief and loss. And yes, you know, this, this is not an easy thing. And it just, to me, it's even more important that both people get support because this is, you know, this is not, this is not like you were saying, couples therapy 101. This is the deep end of the pool. Yeah. And so it's not something to really do alone. And there is hope, you know, I've definitely seen couples work through situations around meth. Um, you know, it doesn't mean necessarily if your partner shares with you that they were using meth or you discover it, that your whole life and relationship is over. But it does mean like, this is, this is a really serious topic. This is not something to push under the rug and hope it goes away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or take lightly at all. Um, and like you said, lots of grieving. I mean, I, my, the, the, the user, it's themselves, like my clients, they have to go through a grieving process because you're, you're telling them you can't feel free anymore. Right? Like this person that you experienced, who you've always wanted to be, you know, even though you had all the consequences after, you got to be that person.

Yeah.

And you have to grieve, you have to grieve that. So you have to grieve that. And then you have to grieve the sex life you used to have. And yeah, what a, what a layered, fucking complicated thing this is.

Yeah.

Wow. Kudos to you for doing the work here. Because I'm glad I'm not doing it. Because wow, that's, that's like you said, that is heavy. It's heavy and it's It's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you. Um, I just want to say, you know, again, for those of you that, that want to work on your relationship, this book that, that this book that Tom wrote is, is very comprehensive. Um, even if you, in chapter 1, you start looking at the stages, uh, I think it's very important to know kind of where we are, where we are, and what can we work toward, right? And again, if it's after, if it's post-meth, during meth, maybe it's something you can work on together.

Yeah, definitely. And it's, you know, I think the topics that are talked about, relationship differentiation and, you know, trust and how to do that, and there's exercises that you can experiment with and try. So it's, I tried to make it very practical.

Yeah. Yeah. I would think almost a couple coming out of this is almost as if they're resetting.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Maybe they start at stage 1 over again, I would think, right?

Yeah, I think, and, and that's, you know, like the stages of grief, these stages aren't always linear. So you, if you have a big life experience, it does make sense sometimes to go back and, you know, go back to the honeymoon stage, see if you can fall in love again. Go on dates and, you know, see if you can nurture the foundation of the relationship because like we were talking about earlier, the foundation has been cracked.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, both, both sides are going to go through trauma, but I know from the user point of view, a lot of us come out of the experience completely traumatized to be around men or to have any kind of romance.

intimacy.

We're touched. We've disassociated from our bodies. I mean, this, I think of the second queer adolescence is your stage 1 here.

Yeah.

Right. Um, yeah, I just, now that I'm in this topic, I'm realizing really just how serious it is. But, um, real quick before we go, the stages. So second queer adolescence, can you give us a couple sentences about that? Sure.

So the second queer adolescence, many of us as gay men, we didn't get to experience adolescence during our puberty period, right? Because either we were out, but there were no other out gay men in our community, or we weren't out. And, you know, it felt very scary. And so the adolescence is really important because it's about experimenting, growth, exploration, learning about who you are. If you didn't have that period, many of us have it later in life when we come out. And so usually we come out and, you know, people will call it, oh, I had my whore phase, or, you know, I was out exploring and figuring out all new things and going out all the time and all that kind of stuff. But if you— until you get to know yourself, it's very difficult to actually have a relationship with somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

And so oftentimes people will sometimes get into a relationship and then they have this adolescent period and they're, you know, going out and learning new things and trying new things. And it happens oftentimes where one person's been out longer and then the other person, you know, comes out and then they go through this period of rapid expansion and exploration. And then the second stage is the honeymoon stage.

Honeymoon stage.

Yeah. Yeah. And so most relationships hopefully have a period at the beginning of a relationship, you know, from the start to, you know, 6 months to 2 years Where it's just about bonding. It's about connecting. You know, you spend a lot of time together. You think about this person all the time. You have great sex. And, you know, it's really about, are we compatible? And is this a good relationship for us? And do we feel good and alive and connected in this way? It's an evaluation period. Many couples get stuck there. And so it's because it feels so good.

Mm-hmm.

And the next stage, though, the third stage is discovering differences. And that's after you've been in a relationship for a while, you reconnect with yourself. And so oftentimes, you know, people will say, oh, you know, they, my friend got into a relationship and I haven't seen him for 2 years because they're just like glued at the hip with their, their partner.

Right. Right.

Um, but after that, after that honeymoon starts to wane, you have the opportunity to reconnect with yourself and discover what are the differences in our relationship and can we be individuals inside of this partnership? And so navigating that stage is really important. And usually a difference will come forward. And I'll just use the classic example of an open relationship. Someone discovers during that stage, I want to open the relationship. Great. The next stage, the 4th stage, is the exploration stage.

Mm-hmm.

And so once you bring the differences into the relationship, can you go out and explore them? Whether it's an open relationship or reconnecting to a hobby or wanting to reconnect with friends or family. Or, you know, whatever it may be. Can you go out and explore? After you go through the exploration period, it's really important to come back and make some agreements. So, you know, the agreement stage is, is the 5th stage. And after, because most conflicts in couples come when there are unspoken agreements that people are, you know, going through.

Okay.

And so, you know, when those unspoken agreements are not actually verbalized, One person thinks the rules are this way and one person thinks the agreements are this way. And yeah, you know, then there's a lot of conflict that comes back, comes into play. After that is the reconnection stage. So if you go out and you explore and you connect to an old hobby that you, you know, let's say you love theater and you wanted to go do a community theater show. That takes a lot of time, right? So are you building in the habit of reconnecting with your partner? After that. And a lot of, a lot of couples will get the exploration part, but then they'll forget to reconnect and reinvest in their relationship.

Okay.

And then the last stage you're working towards is mutual interdependence. And so that's the ability to kind of move back and forth between being a couple, being an individual, exploring, connecting, having both connection and autonomy. At the same time.

Love that. Wow.

Wow.

Relationships are tough, huh?

They can be.

Yeah. I'm just, I'm struggling with a relationship with myself. Imagine put another person in. Um, I love that. Like, yeah. And like you said, it could be back and forth, right? It doesn't have to be linear, the stages.

Yep.

Yeah. Something may happen. You may go back to the honeymoon.

Yep.

Stage, right? I mean, you could go back to, like you said, the honeymoon stage post-meth. You know, after the use, you may rekindle something. I don't know.

Yeah, I would encourage it. If I was seeing a couple who was, you know, or one person was 6 months or a year sober from meth, I would say, yeah, what are you doing to nurture the connection? And can you do that intentionally for the next week?

I love it. I love it. Well, great. Well, we're going to put your contact information. Do you accept Are you accepting new clients? I know you have retreats too, right? Couples retreats?

I do. Yeah, I do couples intensive weekend retreats with, with folks and my schedule is full at the moment for, for clients, but it's always changing. So if people want to work with me, they can always reach out.

Well, I'm sure you're in high demand.

A lot of people, a lot of people want some couples work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate you today taking time and thank you for having me on your podcast. If you didn't see that podcast, Your podcast is called Queer—

The Gay Relationship Podcast.

The Gay Relationship Podcast. Yes, the Gay Relationship Podcast. You can check me out on there if you haven't heard enough of me, but check out Tom's podcast because that's very helpful too. So ongoing topics.

Yeah, thank you for the work you're doing, Dallas.

Well, thank you very much. All right, guys, hope you enjoyed that. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode. You will be— the link to that will be in the show notes, or you can get it directly to your inbox if you go to drdallasbragg.com, go to blog, click on subscribe, put in your email address, and you will get them right in your inbox every Thursday at midnight Eastern. So, all right, we will see you all next week.