EP 2:48: The Gifts of Chemsex with Matthew

I'm not looking to a job to fulfill me. I'm not looking for a house or a car or a large bank to, to tell me that I'm finally good enough. I know I'm good enough inside, right?

Mm-hmm. So, okay, how did you get there? The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth, Or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use Stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Oops. We are live streaming right now. Let's not do that. I keep live streaming accidentally to YouTube. So I go to YouTube and there's like, I don't know. I don't think anybody's watching it, but there's like, the podcast episode will sometimes be on YouTube. And I, it's because I don't, I don't know how to click buttons, but anyway, welcome to the episode. Um, you guys have overwhelmingly said to me that you like and prefer the episodes that have stories in them, stories you can relate to, uh, of other men who have come through this. Um, and it shows in the, the episode downloads, the ones that are most popular. Our stories. Um, the, my story, which is episode 2, is the most listened to, most downloaded, uh, of the, of the podcast. Um, and then, so what I wanted to do today is bring on a client of mine. And if you've listened, I've had a few clients on. Um, there was Alex, 2 Alexes. Um, there, not often can I get a client to come on the podcast. For various reasons. You know, it's the same reason why I, it's hard, it's hard for me to get word of mouth advertising is because a lot of the men who come in the program are anonymous and they have to be anonymous. Um, and a lot of their friends don't know, their family don't know, and they don't want it on record that they have used meth. I had a, um, wow, I'm getting off on all kinds of tangents already. Um, I had a marketing guy. who talked to me, he pitched this whole campaign about Brag a Lot because my name is Bragg, right? So Brag a Lot about your recovery. And I'm like, obviously you don't understand. Nobody's going to brag a lot about being on crystal meth or mephedrone, monkey dust, all the rest of it, right? You're just not going to brag about it. Um, so So there's a lot of people that don't really understand. However, today Matthew is a client of mine who agreed to come on the podcast. Matthew is a part of our very first group cohort. So we have a group coaching program called Foundations, and now we have a second 12-week program called Emergence. But Matthew was part of the inaugural group of guys coming through. The Foundations program. Um, and so I just wanted to, you know, I just put a, I put a word out. Anybody want to come on the podcast, tell their story? If we get to how the program helped you, that's great. I'm sure that we will. It seems to be an integral part of your recovery. Um, but I just, I really wanted to share your story. So welcome to the podcast, Matthew.

Thank you, Dallas. It's an honor to be here, honestly.

Good. So let's start here. So if you're listening, obviously, if you listen a lot, you're going to know there's going to be a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode. You can get that on my website at drdallasbragg.com, click on blog, or you can get the link in the show notes. So you want to, you want to get these study guides because you want to take a deeper dive into the stories and the topics of our podcast. So We're going to get to a topic. We're going to get to a theme. I'm sure as we talk to Matthew, we're going to shake something out. But Matthew, let's start. What, tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, as far back as you want to go, whatever feels relevant right now.

Yeah. Um, well, I'll say currently I'm, I, uh, I live in Ohio right now. Um, I work in healthcare. Um, But my, my story with recovery is not too dissimilar to most other people's. And I don't want to associate too much with it or identify too much with it. But there were some important elements. So just like you, I was raised in West Virginia.

Shout out.

So as a closeted gay man, that can be a little challenging. But, you know, I was raised in a holler. You know, we didn't have a ton of money, but we had a lot of love in the household. I have an identical twin brother. I had an older sister. And, you know, we— I had a loving, nurturing home. My parents always expressed their love. It was a place that felt safe, a place that felt comforting, and it was sort of a fortress. But as I got older, you know, I started to come into my sexuality in a way, but I didn't really understand it. You know, it was— I was dating girls, but I was feeling these, like, attraction to men. in some way. And then I had this, you know, I came into it in middle school, really realized it in high school, but there were events that happened that I think, like most kids, it was traumatizing. There was bullying, there was, you know, from peer relationships all the way up to the institution. You know, I had teachers and administrators who were in indirect ways a part of that, you know, and I think that kind of set the foundation for Um, the way that I view the world, viewed the world, that brought me into meth.

Mm-hmm. So I, I hear this a lot. Guys come to me and they say, I don't have trauma. Like, because they'll say, Dallas, you say all, you know, if you're in meth, if you're in meth use, you had childhood trauma, right? Uh, and they're like, I can't pinpoint. I wasn't molested. I wasn't beaten. Like you're saying, you had a loving, nurturing, safe family environment is what you can remember, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, however, you still had to come out as a gay man in West Virginia, right? Which is right. So that's trauma. That's traumatic. That's traumatic for anybody. And I can personally attest to that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, my being a twin brother is already wrought with problems. I think inherently people look at 2 similar, you know, objects. It's like that diagram in like a coloring book that says, you know, find the 5 differences, you know, with your brother.

Yeah.

And inherently in that, you develop a comparison, right? Where I'm looking at him and I'm like, well, am I You know, people are telling me where our differences are. You know, Matthew is taller, Michael is shorter. Um, you know, Matthew does better in school, Michael's more athletic. You know, there are things that come with that from a very early, early, early age. Um, and so I already started to see the world in a more greater than or less than perspective, right? I was always relating myself to my brother, um, because it was being done to me. And it's, it's not something that was malicious.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it wasn't a malicious intent, but it did have an impact on me. And so when I came into middle school, there was this event where I was dating this girl. She broke up with this guy to date me, and he was upset by it. You know, it upset him. His family had money, they were in the school system, and, you know, we were poor. We didn't have a whole lot of money, and nobody knew who we were, you know. And it just exploded at the time. I think the slur of the time was be called gay, or faggot was actually the specific term, right?

Yeah.

And so this, this guy and his large group of friends who had, you know, they had lots of money and they had popularity and they were, they were this, this entity. They all turned their like gaze on, on me and my brother inadvertently because they couldn't tell the difference, right? Um, so there's, there was a lot of like small t trauma that came with that. There was lots of bullying. I mean, I, There was a specific event that happened that was pretty traumatic, and lots of smaller ones that kept happening, you know, that I think if I look back on it, it isn't a rape. It isn't, you know, I didn't go through some war zone. I didn't— there wasn't no— there was no like large event that actually happened. It was just a series of smaller occurrences that shaped the trauma that I carry with me.

Did Did your parents though, were they, did you find them constantly comparing the two of you as well? And not in a malicious way, but I know for me, like the first thing I do if I do see twins is I will admit I'll be like, oh, what's the differences?

Yeah.

You know, and pointing out like, oh, you know, whatever. Like that's kind of a, a natural tendency, but I've never really thought of how damaging that can be to somebody who, who's trying to find their own identity. You must have felt like you didn't have your own sense of identity.

No, I thank you for saying that. That's exactly how it felt. It felt like we were grouped together as a unit always. It was the boys, the twins, Michael and Matthew. You know, there was never an individual. If one of us did something, both of us did it, right? And I think existing in that framework of like, we are together, you know, we're desperately searching for what makes us different. You know, how can I stand out from my brother? And there were things that were said that they weren't malicious. You know, my father, when I was, I think, in middle school on a drive, actually dropping my brother off to his girlfriend's house, told me that— of all the kids that I was the smartest, right? He was like, you know, you did better in school and, you know, your brother and sister have trouble with this, this, and this. And, um, and the same thing, which when you hear that, you know, not only does it validate that experience of being compared, it makes you wonder where you don't compare in the same way. You know, we would get our West Test scores, you know, our standardized testing scores back every, every month. And every year, I mean. And, you know, my parents would ask how we did, obviously. My aunts and uncles would ask how we did. My grandmother would ask how we did. And it was like, you know, how did Matthew score? Well, how did Michael score? And if you're on the lower end of that comparison, like, that's— it's hard, you know? And then, and then you lean into what, what makes you different, and it becomes your sole identity from, from the other. Yeah.

So your identity was, I'm the smart one.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because you have to wonder why that one comment out of all the, out of all of your memories of childhood, while that one comment stands out in your mind.

Yeah. It was the one thing that made me feel separate, I think. 'Cause he's not unintelligent. He's not, right? He's a little dyslexic, so he always had issues with math and with reading. And I didn't 'cause I didn't have that problem. And feeling like I was good at something that he was less inclined to, I think made me feel good. I suddenly felt like that was my identity. That was what made me different than my brother was this, this thing, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I think growing up, he was always more athletic in a way, like conventionally athletic. I, I was the one that was hiking and swimming and out in the woods climbing on trees, but I think he He could engage in standard structured sports in a way that I just didn't feel comfortable, you know? And so he performed better in that realm. And I think that was probably more of his identity. So I just kind of took the school thing and, you know, I ran with it. Hmm.

So if your identity is wrapped around intelligence, what does that do to you as a student, as a person?

I mean, it's what I cultivate, right? But it's also, it's also isolating, I think, in a way. Um, you know, I, you don't really have to have friends to be intelligent, right? You don't have to rely on other people to perform well in school.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but rather than cultivating other parts of my personality, it was like, that's where I felt the safest. was in that space, cuz I was good at it. Mm-hmm. You know, and it felt like that was where, um, you know, I, I needed, I needed to grow into that to fully realize who I was, right? Was the intelligent twin.

Right.

Okay.

So if that's where you felt safe, what made you feel unsafe?

Well, naturally the opposite, right? I mean, when in areas where I felt like I didn't have the answers, areas where I felt less inclined, I mean, you know, I didn't feel always safe in school, but I felt safe in my studies, right? But if I was out on the soccer field, I didn't feel safe. If I was among a group of friends, I didn't feel safe. And there was always this feeling of, I have to excel at what I'm doing because not excelling means that I'm not, I'm not good enough. I'm less than. There's an inadequacy wound there that I bring into almost every aspect of my life, you know, because there's safety in achieving, you know.

Yeah, it sounds like perfectionism.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you, if you can create an exterior and a relationship to the world that from the outside at least looks like there are no cracks, then it was a barrier to criticism because that was so damaging. Feeling inadequate was so damaging to me. I mean, like, it was, it would crush me, you know, if we didn't have much money, but we would, we would dress like we did, right? My grandmother would buy our clothes. So I would go to school and I would dress a certain way. As an adult, I had this certain apartment. I had this job. I have, I have an impressive, I had this impressive look, right? That from the outside looked okay. It looked like I was doing well because then you can't criticize the path that I'm taking. It protected me. It felt like a fortress almost, but it was a, it was a very thin film. You know, it was, if you just pull it back just a little bit, you would see the cracks, you know, and they were deep. They were really deep.

Okay. Um, so perfectionism, it sounds like, is where you feel safe, being, trying to be perfect. Um, I'm, I'm guessing there were maybe voices in your head. Was, I mean, were, were things that you did ever good enough?

Like, no.

Yeah. At work, at school, in relationships? No.

No, no. I mean, there's, there's always something else that you need, right?

Mm-hmm.

Excuse me, to finally feel like you are good enough. You know, my entire professional career was built in pursuit of something else. You know, I, I have quite a few degrees. I have 5 degrees, right? And, and I thought, you know, if I, if I have not only 1, but 3 bachelor degrees at one time, that'll be impressive enough. Right? It'll garner me some type of attention or permission to exist in a space. And then when I pivoted into healthcare, same thing. I work in an environment where we do incredible work, but it's really high intensity, right? It's an environment where, you know, people who are the elite is like the perception, right? It's not true, but it's like the running joke. Um, I work in cardiovascular medicine. And so, and so we all come to that environment, like trying to prove ourselves because it's the hardest environment, the most critically ill patients, right? So I want to work there to prove myself in healthcare, right? That I'm competent in healthcare. But that isn't enough. You know, there's something else I have to do to finally justify that I'm good enough. And, and when I, when you get there, you see that there's just another milestone ahead of you, right? Like, there's just, there is never an enough point. It's just this massive void that you're just trying to fill that is bottomless, you know? And it was in my late 20s, I'm now 28, that I actually realized that.

Yeah. So, you know, for listeners, if you can relate to this, it doesn't have to be perfectionism, but when a parent says something to you, Like you're the smart one. There's something inside that then says, I, when I'm smart, I'm loved. This is how I find, this is how I get love. This is how I get approval from my parents is when I'm smart. So that continues on past graduation, past moving out, that voice, that father's voice.

Mm-hmm.

is always going to be in your head saying, once you keep proving you're smart, you will find love. You will be approved of. You will belong to this family. You will find your identity, right? So I think oftentimes, even if you think you don't have this big trauma, you have to start thinking about what do the voices in your head sound like? Who from your life do they sound like? And what are you striving? What, who are you trying to prove your love yourself to? And how does that bring you to a place of using crystal meth? And so that's what I want to talk about now with, with you is when did you find yourself in this chemsex world and how?

I, uh, I was first introduced to meth when I was 21 years old. I was in a relationship where I wasn't happy. My boyfriend had cheated on me. And I'm just spending every day in his house, just completely loathing myself, blaming myself for his, you know, him having abandoned me and gone to this other man, right? And I went to a hookup, not that it really matters, but they told me that what we were doing was weed, right? I wasn't somebody who, you know, I did a lot of studying in school, right? So I didn't really go to parties. I'm not the most social creature. And so— When you tell me we're doing weed— no, you're good. Yeah, I didn't know what weed looked like in a chemical or in like a used form. I know it was a plant, but That's irrelevant.

So you had book smarts is what you're telling us?

Yes, exactly. Yes. There is literally no street smarts there at all. Probably would've helped me there.

Okay.

Anyway, I get there, I smoke it, I smoke the pipe, you know, I, we get the thing, we have sex for hours and hours, and that was it. And then it was 2 years later. That I actually began to realize that what I had done was meth. Because somebody in my life was experiencing addiction to methamphetamine, and I could see their patterns of behavior, which aligned with the way that I thought my weed experience was. Right?

Right.

I was telling everybody like, well, I was on weed, like, I was just horny as hell. Like, what do you mean you were tired? I was awake for 3 days. You know, my eyes were bloodshot and Right. And it wasn't until that moment that I was like, I smoked crystal meth. And at that point, you already have the memories, you know, you have the experience, you have the nostalgia, the feeling that it gave you, you know, which I wanted to mention. Um, you know, when, when I put all of my eggs in that one basket of intelligence, that's the only environment where I felt confident, you know, where I trusted myself.

Mm-hmm.

And so naturally, anything that wasn't that environment was the opposite. You know, I questioned if I was bipolar because I would be so confident at work and I would come home and I would be so depressed almost immediately, right? Because the only thing that I thought I had value was in— was at the hospital. That's the only place that I thought that I had any value. And so I'd come home and I didn't have any value. There was nothing, right? And I was constantly in pursuit of finding that value outside of myself. You know, and when I had felt that first hit of, on meth, there is this like surge of confidence that like, that came with it. This like feeling of like, I'm, I'm attractive, I'm wanted, I am like desirable. It was like all of these things that I just, I just did not feel inherently that came with it. And once you feel that, I mean, how do you not wanna keep pursuing it?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sure.

Okay. So you went 2 years though?

Yeah.

Yeah. And then what happened?

Uh, well, COVID happened. Um, uh, that was kind of, that was the year that it, it came back into my life and I had just started nursing school again. I was working full-time. You know, I was working full-time, clinicals, you know, school, COVID, all these things. And I just got on Grindr and some guy asked me if I wanted to come over and it was after a work shift. And I said, well, I don't know, I'm pretty tired. I don't think I have the energy to do that. And he was like, well, I have something that can fix that.

Exactly.

And I knew exactly I knew immediately what he meant, right? I didn't have to ask. I didn't, I didn't question it. I was like, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, let's do that.

Did you say that was— Is it weed?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I didn't. I just went. I just went.

All right. So you had that experience. And so I guess that kind of opened the can of worms for you, I'm assuming.

Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it was that moment that, that it, the meth started to have more of an impact on my life, that I kept seeking it back out. Yeah. It was from that point.

Okay. And you're in school at this time?

Yeah. Yep. Okay.

And, but you were able to finish, I'm assuming you were able to finish, get your degree? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I only used probably, it was a 16-month program. I only used, I think, twice during the program. It was at that point and then once again before graduation.

Okay. All right. So when did it become a problem then?

Right after graduation. Like as soon as I started making money, you know, and I had an apartment, I had a roommate, but I had an apartment and I had the capacity, I had the money and I had the time, you know, I was so busy for so long that finally I had freedom. I just worked my shifts and then I was free. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That happens a lot, right? There's milestones that we go through. Um, I've helped, I've helped a lot of guys who graduate law school or med school or nursing school or their master's degree or whatever it is they finish. And then especially if you've done it like once or twice, you've experienced it. And you get through that milestone and then you just go like you did, I guess, go down the spiral. Yeah. So, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Well, I just want to say, I've always said that this addiction predates meth. You know, these addictive patterns and reflection, having gone through your program, I learned this about myself is, you know, the things that brought me into meth, it honestly feels like a natural progression. You know, Instagram came about when I was like 16 years, 15, 16 years old, right? I didn't have any friends in high school, at least so I thought. And so I had this social platform and for the first time somebody across the country acknowledged me, right? It was like, they said my eyes were pretty. I remember that comment. Um, they said my eyes were pretty and that was like so addicting. You know, it was so validating. It was like, oh my gosh, my peers don't say that to me. No one says that to me. Right. And so I would post selfies all the time to just get that back. And then, you know, and during my, during that breakup that I mentioned where I actually found meth, I was going to the gym. And so I would go to the gym all the time and post those pictures. And that was where I got my validation from, you know, and then it became sex, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Even in sobriety, like before meth really came into my life, I was, I was sleeping with like 2 to 3 people a day. Still, right? Because, because in that moment I felt what meth supplemented. I felt that wanting, that desire, that, that attractiveness, that confidence that comes with it. And then eventually that loses its, its worth. And then, you know, there's meth. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think anybody listening can, can relate to the hypersexuality that comes even before you try meth. Right.

Yeah.

And after a lot of times, you, you can't, you sometimes return back to that. You know, I kind of did after the fact in, in my recovery. Um, once I got back rolling, all of a sudden I found myself, oh, wait a minute, there's still something that needs to be discovered here. I'm still getting my validation from, from this, like over and over the hookups and the hookups and the hookups. Not to say, not to judge anyone who has a bunch of hookups.

Sure. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. I mean, did that feel different to you? Did it feel like a different experience having those hookups or?

I'm asking the questions here. No, I'm just joking. Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

No, I'm joking. Um, so yeah, I mean, it, it felt a little different at first, but then it felt it was the same energy and the same high. of not being able to get off the scrolling, you know, back to that, you know, we talked about the other day about this. The conversation is just wanna fuck. It's not how you, how you doing, what you into.

Mm-mm. We don't need that.

Wanna fuck where and when, right?

Yeah.

All of that, all of that came back without the substance.

Yeah.

Because like you're saying, before I tried the substance, I was still getting my validation and my worthiness from the hookups, from the men.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And you, and I say this all the time, the road to, to Matthews for me started the day that my dad looked at me and said, you can't be my real son.

Mm.

There's, there's no way you're my real son. Right.

Wow. What a statement.

For me, if I were to draw a roadmap, yeah, that, that's when it started. Uh, based on our conversation here, just a casual comment of, you're the smart one.

Yeah.

You're the smart one. Right. Yeah. And so then when you get an Instagram and somebody compliments your eyes, all of a sudden You're, oh, wait a minute. You know, I, I find, I'm finding my worth in another, in another way.

Yeah.

And I can, I can be the, I can also be the sexy one now. I can be the athletic one now. I can be the, all the other things now.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that resonates really deeply.

And, and like for me, That comment made me, and made me go on this endless search for belonging.

Yeah.

Right. For you, it was this endless search for, I have to be smart enough. I have to be intelligent enough, but it's never enough.

Never. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it translated into like, I have, yeah, I find finding that belonging piece is, is, is, is everything. You know, I, I was bullied so much before I actually even knew that I was gay. It was like, I realized I was gay in like 8th grade, right? But my bullying started in 6th grade. So I came into, I came into myself, into my sexuality with this notion that being a faggot equals being excommunicated. You know, all my friends in elementary school, they weren't there for me anymore, right? They abandoned me, right? So I was always trying to like, what is my in? How can I belong? How can I fit into this group? And what I noticed especially, I mean, there's 2 things, but one in the healthcare world is I identify with my title. Like that was how I would introduce myself to people because that's what I found my value. But with meth, it was like, well, my value is my body. You know, I have this, I'm attractive. I have this body. I have this sexuality. I'm a sexual creature. It's like people, everybody wants me. And You know, that feeling came in trying to fit in with the gay community, I feel like, because that's— we're a hypersexual community in lots of ways. And sure. Um, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think also it sounds like to me that you were getting recognized without the comparison, right? Like you have the pretty eyes, you have the nice body, and it's not— and Michael has Or it's right there. There's something about you actually coming into your own here, right?

Yeah, there was a you are quality, not it just you are, right? You know, you are this, you are sexy, you are whatever, um, you know, you are wanted, you know, and it does. Yeah, actually, I haven't thought about that. It does make it more singular and it feels like it's mine. Feels like it's, you know, I, my sexuality is my own. It's not his because he is also a gay man. Um, but it does feel like I, yeah, I identify with that.

Yeah. Yeah. And so of course you're going to keep chasing that.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.

So you, you get into it pretty hot and heavy, I guess, with the meth, with the meth. Um, what was your rock? What was your rock bottom? If you had one?

Yeah. I, yeah, I do. Um, yeah, I, okay. So I, I'd applied to, to further my education. Um, it was a path that I felt, again, if I just get this thing and go through this program, I'm gonna finally find my, my acceptance with myself, right?

Mm-hmm.

And with others. And I finally got in and it was, it was this moment of achievement that was incredible, but it was very short-lived. Um, I didn't feel like I deserved it. I didn't feel like I was worthy of it. I didn't feel like I actually earned it, right? There was something in me that felt like I was just an imposter in this field. You know, you're not actually that smart. You're not actually, you know, a good caretaker. You know, you're, it's just, you're just faking it. You can just really work people and that's actually what you're doing here. You don't deserve this.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I think I internalized that and I mean, I don't wanna say I self-sabotaged, but I did. You know, I, I was kicked out of the program before it even started, you know, because I didn't show up to orientation because I was using.

Hmm.

Um, and that just, that was it because, you know, when I had been pursuing this, this degree and this career and that was, that was my worth and then that part was severed from me, well, that was everything. Like that was my identity. That was my, that was my purpose. Right. And so when that was taken from me, I just spiraled. And everything changed after that. I, I wasn't a, I wasn't a consistent user. I was, I wasn't even a weekend warrior. It was like a once a month type deal. I would go for 3 or 4 days, but it, it, it was probably once a month. After that, all bets were off. I maxed my credit cards. I, I used the overage from my, you know, from the program to pay for my rent because I wasn't going to work.

Mm-hmm.

And I got to this point where I just, I You know, it's called passive suicidal ideation, where you just kind of wish that you just didn't wake up. Because my entire purpose was stripped from me, I felt, right? I now see that as a benefit, but that's what happened. So long story short, that kind of continued. I eventually lost my apartment. I moved back home with my parents. I left the job that I had worked at for 4 or 5 years from a health system that Did a lot for me where I contributed a lot to the health system. I moved back home. I lost 2 other travel or 2 other jobs after that from not going, not showing up. And I found myself on the verge of being kicked outta my parents' house. I didn't have any money. I didn't have access to credit cards. I, I was down by, there's a river in this town that I'm staying in, my family. And, you know, that's where a lot of the unhoused people live. Right. And I remember I was, I remember walking down there, you know, trying to find like a place to just think and seeing like the tents. Right. And seeing where they were. The only thing that I had left to my name was my, my license, my career license and my car. Right. Um, and that was probably only because it wasn't parked outside my parents' house, so they couldn't tow it. Um, but that was it. You know, I didn't have, I didn't have anything else. Everything that I thought I identified with was, was gone. You know, I was no longer an impressive caregiver. I was no longer this studious boy or guy, you know, who had a lot of promise. I, I wasn't even hooking up with people. So it wasn't even, it wasn't even that, that meth was still serving that purpose. It wasn't, you know, I was using by myself, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And Yep. And I just sat there and I, I saw the life that was, the life that was gonna unfold for me. And it really, it was really hard to see that, you know, because I felt like I had so much promise. I had so much, um, to give to people. And I just had this feeling that I just, this world was gonna beat me down until I wasn't here anymore. You know, like that was my purpose was to just to just endure all of this pain until finally there was just a release, you know? And I'm sorry about that. Um, I just, I, I look back on that moment now with a lot of sadness for myself to have got myself in this position where I felt so little of my own worth and the value that I have to contribute to people. Because I've always been, I've always been somebody who cares, you know? And, um, I mean, shit, my, my first degree, I wanted to work in international humanitarian law and go save people in Peru. You know, that was like what I wanted to do.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, and to see myself, to see where I ended up, um, you know, physically, sure, but just mentally in that prison of I'm not good enough, I don't belong. There's something inherently wrong with me that makes me not wanted. You know, and I actually, I want to tie that back. We were, my brother and I were very sick as infants, very, very, very sick, like from, from infancy. And I, I realized this when I was in rehab, actually, that I think whenever I was, when I was an infant and I saw my parents going to take care of my brother, I mean, I was probably months old and I would see them caring for him because he was sicker than I was. Right. And they needed to care for him.

Mm-hmm.

I'm a baby and I can't really perceive that. I don't know what's happening. All he sees is that they're giving him attention. And I think I internalized that as like, they don't want you. They want him. They want someone else. And that's just like the foundation of the rest of my, of my life up until this point. Yeah. It was kind of a little interlude, but yeah.

That's where the myth started.

That's where the myth started.

I was wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you for sharing that. Um, I think it's important to, to kind of double-click on and think about for the listeners, this idea of being accepted to whatever degree program it was, right? Um, or maybe it's for you listening, maybe it's you meet the guy of your dreams. And the best relationship you've ever had begins to flourish. Or perhaps it's a job promotion.

Right.

Right? Something that takes you a level up and something that you say, 'cause you, you use the term self-sabotage, right?

Yeah.

Um, and something that we say is self-sabotaging, but what really happens Is that we don't believe we deserve. There's a fear of success, right? There's this, this voice, this voice in the back of your mind that says you're only worthy if you're this. And so you're put on the line with this big, this big degree.

Yeah.

And there's a part of you that's saying, You believe you're going to fuck this up, so let's go ahead and fuck it up before you do, right? You're going to get embarrassed. You're not, this isn't, this is, you're not smart enough for this, whatever it is, right?

Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so that belief that you have about yourself becomes louder than any other voice you can, any other thought you can say. And it becomes so loud that your actions follow it. And so your subconscious knows the best way to burn that down is to go use meth.

Right.

And, and this happens, this happens quite a bit. And this is why it's so important if you're in recovery or you're thinking about getting in recovery, is you examine the beliefs that you have and you hold about yourself. That you examine those voices in your head that says, I'm only loved if, right? Or I'm never going to be good enough. They're always going to be paying attention to Michael. Right?

Right.

And to get their attention, I have to, I have to be smart. And it's never— the pressure is just the pressure of living under that. It had to be excruciating for you. Never. I would imagine your nervous system never, ever regulated.

No, no, no, it didn't. It's something that I know you've— I shared with you a lot is something that I'm definitely still working on now. I mean, you're The thing that developed for me with all of this, with that feeling of inadequacy, is my mind is always searching for the thing inside me that makes— that finally says, this is why you're not good enough. You know, this is it. This is the thing. And it's everywhere, which is what makes the feelings of inadequacy, the feeling that, you know, I'm not good enough, the self-sabotaging, you know, the career trajectory that I was on, it It's like my mind sees everything as a threat. You know, I'm so hypervigilant in all aspects of my life. I mean, whether I'm at work or in a social gathering, it's like I'm examining everything around me to see how I'm being perceived, you know? And I want to manage that because it's protective and it's stressful. I mean, I used to get panic attacks all the time from it. all the time, you know, because eventually you, eventually you snap. It's like you have to blow off that steam somehow. And that was something that I think looking back that meth gave me was a relief of those thoughts.

Yeah.

You know, I, I didn't, I, I was no longer examining my own, my own, um, presentation to the world, but how others were perceiving me, all my circumstances, my environments. I had one thing on my mind. You know, I just want— it was sex, right? So all of these other voices, the hundreds of voices that were going on all the time, was— they were gone. They were, they were quieted. And there was so much peace in that, in a way, you know? Mm-hmm. Yes. I mean, obviously it was wrought with, with a lot of trauma or, and a lot of like negative consequences that came from that, but it, it served a purpose and it really did. It served a purpose. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what I'll say to, to you and to listeners too, is what you got from meth is kind of almost a snapshot of what you can have in recovery. The quietening of the voices, the feeling of, the feeling of freedom, right? You, you got to be chosen. Like you're talking about the, you know, that your parents were all, concerned about your brother, but in meth, you're the center. You're what's being chosen.

Oh yeah. The entire world looks at you.

Right, right. Um, and so I would say like, if anything can entice you to quit is I can get that feeling plus a lot more without the negative consequences naturally on my own. living a life that's meaningful and purposeful. Right?

Right. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that was the gift, right? If, if, if this is a good spot to, to say that, you know, I, I think it's for a long time, it, it was looking at this drug as what it's taking from me, you know? And I, I came to this realization a few weeks ago that That what I was feeling from meth, what meth gave me, was a mirror of what I was missing from myself. You know? And I feel like the degree to which meth impacts your life is almost directly compared to the degree to which, like, the degree of, like, distance you have from yourself almost. At least for me, that's how it was. You know, I completely fragmented myself and I had, I had created this, this, this life that found all this worth from ex— from outside of me, from the external. You know, I had this body, I had this career, I had this apartment, I had this car, I had all these things that made me feel good about myself. Right. But really what I was missing was worth from myself that I felt good with just who I am, that I love just who I am. And I feel like meth severed all of the falsehoods. of, you know, the, the career identifier, you know, the, the car, the body. It, like, it made me look at myself. It took away all of the fluff and was like, this, you are where your worth is. You know, valuing yourself, finding your worth in yourself. It's not your intellect. It's not your, your job, how much money you make, the body that you have, the car that you drive. It's, it's who you are. It's who you've always been. And so it was like, Meth came in and said, let me get rid of all of this so you can see where you actually are valued. That's what it did for me. I mean, it, and it was controversial, but I felt like a gift, you know, looking back now, it feels like a gift. I'm so, I'm so grateful that I went through this experience.

It is. I agree.

I agree.

As you know, it is a gift. There's a gift because if you think about it, if you didn't have the meth experience, Where would you be right now? Where would you be?

I don't know.

You'd be climbing the— still climbing the ladder somewhere.

I would, I would exactly. I would still be pursuing that goal of what I thought was going to be the final thing that made me worthy, but still feeling so undeserving of love and connection and still feeling like I didn't belong on this planet, right? Like I would, I would still be living life and sure, I might have a career. I might have money. I might have esteem, but I wouldn't have worth. I wouldn't have self-love. I wouldn't be able to receive people and to give from a place of abundance. Like, I wouldn't have those gifts. And like, that's what this life has given me now is I have those gifts.

That's right.

And I don't— I'm not looking to a job to fulfill me. I'm not looking for a house or a car or a large bank to tell me that I'm finally good enough. I know I'm good enough inside, right?

So, okay, how did you get there?

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I went through 3 years of therapy and not to trash the medical community, but I felt like I was lost in that space, right? They, it was all very surface level. It was like, well, you feel this way about, you you know, your relationships. Well, why don't you do this thing to make that better? Or why don't you go join a club? Or why don't you take this medicine and that'll make you feel better? And it's like, okay, but there's still this underlying, like, problem, right? There's this self-perception that exists underneath all of that. And that's just, that is just a bandaid, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I think there's value in it in some realms. I won't get into that, but that, that's just a bandaid. And I think honestly that this, Oh, sorry, go ahead.

I just want to pause real quick for the listeners. We did not rehearse this, by the way. So Matthew asked me about preparing for questions, having topics, bullet points, or whatever. I don't prepare. I mean, it's probably obvious. I don't prepare for any podcast. I don't prepare any questions. I just let the conversation go. So if you think this is all kind of planned out, it isn't. He is Matthew is a, is a client of mine and he has gone through the program. Yes. But this interview has not been, this is not like a big advertisement. So I just wanted to, I just wanted to interject and say that.

Oh yeah.

So go ahead.

So go ahead. Yeah. Because a wealth of gratitude's coming. So that's a period of— um, yeah. So, so I was put on medicine, right? I was treated for ADHD. I was treated for anxiety and depression. I was treated for my panic attacks. But no one, no one, no one looked at, at the foundation, right, of these wounds, you know, of the parts of me that were feeling, you know, like they weren't good enough, they were inadequate. And so there I went. And it wasn't until I went into rehab that actually the counselor that I had told me that I had one complex PTSD, which no one, no one had said those words to me. Mm-hmm.

Right?

Told me that I had complex PTSD, and he told me to go grab my pillow at night and visualize like 6-year-old Matthew and just give him a hug.

Right?

Oh, okay. And I did that and I cried. But I think what sparked in me was like, there were wounds there that I had never, that I didn't give the value Like the weight to have like impact my adulthood, right? There were ways that I was perceiving the world that came from my adolescence, you know, and I think that's like kind of where that started. But I tried AA and that didn't work for a myriad of reasons. And, you know, I joined your program in November of this last year. I've been in it for 12 weeks. And Our very first session, you told me, what would it look like to date Matthew? What would it look like to be in a relationship with yourself?

Mm-hmm.

And sorry, um, it was like, it was in that moment that I realized that I had been feeling like I didn't deserve love or connection with another person. That That there was something so bad about me that I had to— I locked myself away and I created a world where I matched my environment, right? It was almost like a chameleon. I performed where I needed to garner attention or whatever it was I wanted from that moment. But I didn't know who I was authentically.

Yeah.

Like, literally, actually. Yeah, I was reading my journal earlier and I'm I'm reflecting on that. It was profound. I mean, it was almost like I had locked him away. And when I started— when you asked me that question, I started to think about what that would look like. What would it look like to love myself? What is worthy of love in myself? And it was in that moment that everything changed, I think. That I saw the person I saw the man that was guiding my decisions, this, this hurted, this hurtful, pained, you know, this victim of this world that existed. And when I flipped the script and I started to tell and started to ask myself, like, well, what if all of these experiences, everything that you've gone through, was meant to make you into the— into something else?

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, and when I leaned on that perception, That all of the pain, all of the trauma, all of the, you know, the hurt that I endured, it all had a purpose. It all had a meaning. Like there was a reason that I had to go through all of that. And it was in that moment that everything shifted. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Big moment for you.

It was huge. It was huge. Yeah. Go ahead. It was compassion. It was compassion for myself.

Yeah.

You know, I think that's— we talk about the compassionate observer a lot in the program. And I think that's where using that principle to look at my behaviors, the way that I interact with the world, the way that I relate to the world, you know, it was that relationship that needed mended. You know, I'm not a victim of the world. You know, I can see that the boys in high school that bullied me had their own wounds they brought into that relationship. Right.

That's right.

And they weren't mine. You know, who I was wasn't relevant. You know, they were hurt that they were, that he had been broken up with and he had, he felt rejected. Right. And so to soothe his own wounds, he, he bullied me. Right. It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with me. All the bullying that I went through, it had nothing to do with me. It was people acting from their own place of fear. And I have compassion for that. If I could sit there and look at that man today, I would give him a hug and say, thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And, and, and feel it and truly embody like compassion for him and where he was coming from, which means that I can then reflect and give it back to myself, you know?

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And that's, I mean, that, that the key to all of this, I think we make too hard, too difficult. And those of you listening, those of you who get sessions with me and, or DM me or whatever. You're trying, you're looking for all these difficult answers and you're so concerned about the science and the physiology of addiction when it's a shift in perception can pivot the entire recovery and not just recovery, but your entire life. Like our first session. You came in, it was Zoom, but you couldn't even look me in the eye. You were so disassociated from yourself that you didn't want to look in the camera. It was probably, I guess it was your reflection maybe in Zoom that you wouldn't look at. I don't know. But you were so overcome by shame and guilt. And there was a message that you sent Before we even met, uh, when we connected on WhatsApp and you joined the group and you said, you know, you were at the gym and you were crying and you're like, you know, I just want to, I just want to be the man I used to be for my family, right? Like, I want to be that, I want to be that brother. I want to be that son. And I told you, it's like, you're not ever going to be him because you're going to be something greater.

Mm-hmm.

You're going to be who you're meant to be, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, and the meth experience came to make that happen. But it seems so, um, it just seems so weird for guys early in the program for me to say that. You have to start being thankful for it like you are, like you've said here, and, and realize that you only, you guys only bring forward these stories of bullying, of victimhood. You, you're getting value out of bringing those stories forward and reliving them over and over and over. There's some reason why you're holding on to that.

Right, right. Exactly.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you did at the beginning, you brought it up, you brought the whole thing up and you, it's like you brought it to me as if, can you believe this happened to me?

Right, right, right. No one else has ever experienced this level of trauma. I am so different. Right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, there's— go ahead.

No, I, I think it, that's, that's exactly the point. I think I, I identified so much with those wounds and, and it's fair. I think it's fair. I needed to bring that to somebody because they needed to tell me that to just let it go. You know, I, I, I've used this, this analogy of a, of a suitcase. I was given these like suitcases from these people that I was carrying around, the suitcase of like, you're not good enough. You're not this enough. You're, you're this, you're that. And I'm carrying it. And then I'm finally realizing now, like, wait a second, I didn't buy that luggage. That wasn't mine. It doesn't have my name on it. Whose luggage is this? I'm gonna let that go.

Yeah.

Right. And just keep walking. And the levity that comes with that from no longer identifying with one, the life that I thought I needed. Right? The life that I thought I needed was this esteem, this house, this money, this look, this impressive person. Like, when I finally stopped identifying with that life and identified with me and who I am and what I actually need, which is love and connection, you know, and self-compassion, like, that's when I started to grow. And I could let go of, like, all of the other egoic, like, you know, materialistic things that existed outside of myself. The worth finally comes from, from me, you know, when I start to embody that I am loving, I am good enough, I am worthy, I am adequate, you know. I think when I start to, to really believe that, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when, when you— so when you brought that, that, that trauma to me, and this happens a lot, And the, the guys will say, yeah, but it's because, it's because my dad did whatever, right? Like I brought up that comment my dad said, but not in a way of, it, it's not something that weighs me down today, right? It's not something that, that I, you, you can't move forward into the future if you drag your past with you.

Right.

And you are identifying with that past for a reason. It keeps you safe. It keeps you in your story. It keeps you diverted from the actual work here, right? Which, which you've done, which is, I'm going to have compassion. It started with compassion for those boys in middle school, and then it started to seep over into yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And so compassion of, yeah, I used meth. I used meth. I did all these You know, dark, dirty things. So fucking what? The rest of us did it too. Right?

Right.

So I, I did all these things and now I have compassion for me. And, and I understand there were so many gifts given to me. Like, look at who you are today. Like, you're— look at who, what you're— look at how you see yourself today and how you're operating today. That's a gift. Of meth. That's a gift of chemsex.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I was looking back at my journal and I said, I said very early on in the program, I said, I don't know who, I don't yet know who I am. Right. 'Cause I completely fragmented myself off. I don't yet know who I am, but I know who I'm not. Like, then that's what I, that's what I had to lean into was like, I was identifying with these stories and it's like, I'm actually not that thing, right? So let me get rid of that. Let me get rid of this. Let me get rid of that. And it's like, the more that I shifted out of the way, the more that I found truth in my own being, the more that I could reveal myself. And then there's— there I am, you know, there's Matthew, there's this kind, loving, compassionate— sure, he's smart, he's intellectual, okay, but he's so much more than that, you know? And it's like—

Mm-hmm.

That identifying with, with that truth comes from within me. I don't need someone to tell me that. I mean, I still struggle with it. Don't get me wrong. I still, I still love to hear that I'm, I'm a great, you know, healthcare provider and it still kind of gives me more value than maybe it should, but it, it's still there. You know, I'm not gonna lie and say it's not, but I, I think there was something beautiful in, in its death. It's like in its death, I found my own life. It, in the death of those identifiers, I found life, new life.

Mm-hmm.

And it is so much more than what I was expecting. You know, I wanted, like you said, I wanted to be, I wanted to be a loving brother. I wanted to be a loving son, you know, and for my mother, for my brother, for my sister. But I want this, but now I want this for me. You know, I deserve, I deserve this. I didn't deserve to live in the pain of my victimhood. Right. And I, I, I deserved to feel loved and to feel good enough from within me. Um, but I had to experience what I had to experience to get there, you know, and I'm grateful for that experience. I mean, like I said, it, it really did strip— it stripped all of the bullshit, you know. Honestly, I'm gonna say that it stripped all the bullshit that was fogging my, my way back to myself.

Right, right. And you said For the, for, for the listeners, you may benefit from this. You don't know who you are. A lot of us have no idea who we are early in recovery because we've always had 500 different personas. You know, we've, we've lived a, we've lived a, we've lived a, um, private life or a secret life and all that kind of stuff. So begin with who you're not.

Right.

And what this, with Matthew, one of the places this started was Um, not to be, I won't be specific, but there was a somebody close to you who you were upset with because they didn't, they didn't reveal some life news to you. Right.

Right.

And, you know, you called me and you were talking, you were, you were upset about it. And so what the question that I think, you know, I don't want to speak for you, but one of the questions that has really helped is, What is true and what is a story? Because that's going to help you, that's going to help you discover who you're not, right? If you say, I'm a, I am a bad person, or I, or that, you know, that person's never going to forgive me, or I am this, you have to look to find where are the receipts, right?

Right.

In terms of, What is true? What is true? And what's a story in my mind? What can I tangibly prove 100%? Right?

Yeah.

So this person did not tell you some information. They've, they've been, they've cut themselves off from you. Like, like all of us have family members, friends who cut, coworkers who cut themselves off from us because of how we act when we're on meth. That happens a lot. But the only thing that's true in that situation is they are not talking to me anymore. That it can be proven. Right.

Right.

What is a story is they still hate me. They're mad at me. They think badly of me. We'll never, we'll never reconcile. All of that stuff wraps itself into I am a failure. Yeah. Right. So what am I not?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. So what can I, what is true and what is the story? And that, that is one of the tools I think that, that also helped you in that discovery process.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I, early on, I, I, I used the phrase, what is, what is true and what's a delusion? Right. I think the delusion is the word that I use, but the story is actually a lot more, a lot more palatable. Um, and it's, it's big. I mean, Yeah, I used it at work last week. I mean, it's the same thing, you know, or my friend asked me to celebrate my birthday this year, right? And so I remember this at work. He was like, well, what are you doing for your birthday? And I said, nothing. I don't celebrate my birthday. And he was like, well, why not? I was just like, I don't know. Like, why would I? What's the point? You know? And I think underneath all of that was a feeling of like, I'm not worth— my birth isn't worth celebrating, right? You know, why would you? And it's like, well, that's not— that's a delusion. Of course it's worth celebrating. You know, like, I ascribe this own meaning to it that isn't true. You know, what's true is I was born. There was a reason that I was born, and my birth is worth celebrating. That's true. You know, not deserving of celebration is a delusion. I am worth it. I am deserving of that.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. So what, uh, how is life for you now? Like describe to us kind of maybe a, a snapshot of, you know, what's a day in the life in recovery for you?

Yeah. I mean, I, everything, everything feels, everything feels like it looks the same, but the way that I relate to it is completely different. You know, I, I wake up now and I have this gratitude, right?

Mm-hmm.

You know, I get to go to work, right? I don't have to go to work. I get to go to work. I get to go to the gym. I, I, I get to record this podcast with Dallas today. You know, like all of these, all of these things that I used to feel, you know, burdened by or anxious about or encumbered through. You know, I have a new relationship to it. You know, it's all happening. Like you always say, it's all happening for me, right? There's a purpose for it. It's healing.

Mm-hmm.

The way that I interact at work, I can identify now where I was self-abandoning. You know, at work was a huge place. I wanted everyone to, again, to find value in me. So I would completely overextend myself. I said yes to everything. I wasn't a social creature, so they didn't that didn't really impact that realm of my life. But at work, yes, always. Right. And I got so much, like, I got so invigorated through being needed and being like wanted in that way. But now I can feel where, where that is the people pleasing behavior, right? Where I'm, I'm overextending myself and my energy and now I can, I can bring that back.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but even more so, I just, I just have a lot of love and compassion for myself. Right. I mean, I cry a lot because I'm just an emotional guy, but a lot of it now is for how I mistreated myself. Right. And I have so much compassion for the things that I, the things that I did. And I, and I don't identify with the shame anymore. You know, I, with that person that you mentioned, I, I did something, I did something wrong, right?

Mm-hmm.

When I was using.

Sure.

Doesn't make me a, doesn't make me a bad person or a wrong person, right? That behavior was, was maladaptive and it was out of a place of, of fear, right?

Yeah.

But I'm not that person, right? And I can see that now. Um, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Okay.

What are you working on right now? Like what's, what are some areas that you're focused on in terms of self-development? You know, what's, what's next in your recovery, I guess?

It's a good question. Yeah, that is a good question. Um, I think, well, there's quite a few things. Um, boundaries is a big one. That's why I think I just mentioned it just now, because I, you know, when you violate your own boundaries, you can let somebody else violate your boundaries, but you also violate your own boundaries, right? And I, and I see that acting out in my life and, um, That's just another way of like not loving myself. So trying to identify where that's happening, where that's existing, um, and correcting that is something that I'm working on now. Um, the sexual reintegration part of it is something that I— there's a lot of resistance there, right? Because I still have a lot of, um, unresolved, uh, I don't know how I should phrase that.

Yeah.

Um, I don't know if that'll help. You're judging.

Yeah, I don't know. Well, if I, I think, I think—

That's it.

If, if I can.

You may.

Is that, yeah, you're, you're, you still have judgment. You're still judging yourself at times, right? If there's 3 words that will get anyone free in this recovery journey is stop Judging yourself. And if you don't know what judging yourself means, it means placing a judgment on yourself or calling it bad, like naming something you've done wrong or bad or not enough. Or, you know, it's like, you know what judging means. So like the things—

Right.

There seems to be for you some judgment on sex.

Right.

That, you know, that when you're thinking about sex, it seems like you have not uncoupled what you did on meth with sober sex yet. You haven't experienced sober sex yet either in your recovery, right? Or in this 12 weeks.

No, I have not.

So there seems to be some judgment that comes up when it comes around, when it comes up around sex. sexting, sex talk, flirting, you know, that kind of thing. So there's some there about, there's still some labeling you've done that I'm a bad, I'm a sexual deviant. I'm a bad person for the things that I've done. Is that, does that resonate?

Yes. Yes. That's, thank you for stepping in there. Yeah, absolutely. That's completely true. Yeah. I, and I think that's something that I think is important for anyone going through this experience to keep in mind is that this work is never done.

Right.

I, I have, I feel like one, it takes a lot of courage. It takes so much courage to turn inward and look at the parts of you that make you uncomfortable, that are scary, that make you feel pain. It's so much easier to just go out and use and to forget about all of it. And if you, if, you know, a big part of this for me is to stop reacting to life and just pause and respond, reflect and respond. And I think, you know, I, I've done a lot of work and I've uncovered lots of things. It's like an onion with layers. You keep pulling one back and there's like 1,000 more. And just when you think that you've done like the most difficult one, one comes out of nowhere and you're like, ugh, I gotta work through that. And that's just ongoing. Um, but now, but now there's a foundation that I have that I've built that it doesn't— I don't spiral back into that. I don't spiral into this like shame.

Mm-hmm.

that I am this like horrible thing. You know, when I realized that judgment is a, was a big part of my life right now, I mean, it, it hurts. Um, because it's not, it doesn't feel like it's in alignment with my highest self, right? Like there's the things and the values that I want to embody. Judgment isn't one of them, but, but judging that judgment doesn't serve me, right?

Right.

I have to be able to just sit with and recognize it for what it is. It was born out of a place of protection. Right. You know, we talk about parts work. There's a, there was a part of me that developed that pattern of behavior to protect itself. Right. That's right. You know, if, if, if I judged you prematurely and I could elevate myself, then it protected me from when you judged me. Right. Right. Because I'm already put myself up here. Right. So, right. I don't fall down as far. And yeah, I can see that for what it is and just having compassion for it. Bringing it back to that compassionate observer. Just, yeah. Looking at your actions. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, right. Even so, if you are a judgmental person, judging yourself for being judgmental doesn't help anything. It only just exasperates the whole problem. Judging yourself for using meth, for relapsing. This is what, this is what gets you caught up in keep— anything you judge, you're pulling yourself closer to it. This is why we see these, like, these big Christians, they get caught on Grindr or, you know, these Christians that are outspoken about gays end up being, you know, in the closet. The judgment, anything you judge, you're asking for it to be closer to you. That's why when you point your finger at somebody and you judge them, he's a gossip or whatever it is that you're judging them for, or when somebody relapses and you're one of those in the corner, Mm-hmm. judging them for doing it, you're next. You're next, right?

Yeah.

Um, and, and so I just, if we can release, this is how I have personally, have personally remedied so many patterns, behavioral patterns that kept coming back is I stopped judging myself for doing it. You know, like I moved into this apartment and then all of a sudden I wanted to be, I wanted to be a slut again. Because in the past, I'd come back around and it was sleeping, you know, I wanted to sleep around. I would feel so negative about it, just like you. I would feel so bad about it. And this is so out of alignment. This is blah, blah, blah. This is my old self, you know, judge, judge, judge. And then I would go back the other way. I would just be a monk for a while.

Right.

Slowly, I would edge my way back. pardon the pun, edge my way back to sleeping around. So this time I said, you know what, if I'm going to sleep around and I'm just going to let myself do it, there's no holding, there's no judgment about it. There's no labeling it bad. I'm just going to do it. And within 3 weeks, it was literally 3 weeks. It just, it was gone. Like the whole pattern was gone.

Hmm.

This, this idea of having all these fuck buddies and having this in and out, like it just dropped because The whole lesson wasn't about me having sex with people. The lesson was about me judging myself for it. Yeah, this is what we have to learn here. Yeah, you will stop relapsing if you stop judging yourself for it.

Right, right, right, exactly. Yeah, and I just want to plug one tool that I got from the program that really helped me early on. It was this goodbye letter to meth. That I wrote. And it was like the 3rd journal entry that I did. And that letter was, I mean, the value that it's had in my recovery is immeasurable.

Yeah.

I mean, I read it just earlier today and I started it with like, you deceived me, you lied to me, you did all these things to me. And then it morphed on the 3rd page into, Actually, you know, you, you didn't want anything from me. You served a purpose, right? And, and what you gave me was like this gift.

Mm-hmm.

And I stopped judging meth like that, which is the, the tie here is like, I stopped judging meth. I ascribed it this like malicious intent, this bad actor in my life, this thing that was taking, you know, my career and my money and my life. And, and it was like, when I stopped doing that to meth, meth lost a lot of its draw. I mean, honestly, I no longer felt encumbered by this drug or felt tied to it like it was always waiting for me somewhere else to take back my next, you know, my next thing. I mean, it just is. It just is. It just is. It just is.

Right. It just is. And those of you that say meth took My job. Meth took my partner. Meth took this. Meth didn't take anything. You gave it away.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

You gave it away. Um, meth, the, the, the whole idea of doing, of using chemsex is just your subconscious wanting you to feel better. Wanting you, it's wanting to repeat a pattern.

Dopamine.

Right? It's just all this dopamine. You could study the science of it if you want. And I, I don't.

Yeah.

But I know, I know it just wants you. It's just trying to protect Right?

Right.

Like you, it was trying to protect you from proving to yourself that you were going to fail out of that degree program. So let's fucking burn it down because it's all for you. I'm doing this to keep you safe, keep you small, keep you back here.

Yeah. And there's a, I mean, you know, we talked about this. Everything's a mirror, right? There are lessons to be learned in every interaction that you have. And Yeah, meth was a big one. When I sat with, like, what was meth giving me? What did I feel when I did meth? Okay, I felt confident, I felt sexy, I felt attractive, I felt wanted, I felt desirable. Well, okay, those are the things I need to work on. If I can give that to myself, then I don't need it to be supplemented from something else. I don't need validation from social media or from, you know, multiple hookups or from a substance. I already have that. Right. I am no longer somebody who, who was trying to recover. I am a recovered person, right? I am just Matthew. I am not an addict. I am not this thing. I am me and me is good enough and me is worthy. Right.

Yep, exactly. Wow. You're like a walking billboard.

I do this.

Yeah.

If I can, if I can say, I mean, again, this is not a plug. This program has saved, has, has given me, given me my life back in a way that I couldn't have even seen. Right. I thought I was gonna come back to, to Matthew circa 2018, but the Matthew that I am now is a Matthew that I've never seen before.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe I incarnated with this Matthew, but he was lost and it, yeah, I am so grateful, grateful for this experience, for the program that's been created. And if anyone out there is, is questioning Whether this is for them, you know, obviously ask, ask the questions yourself. But I felt so much incongruency with the 12 steps. There was something about that program that I just didn't identify with, and it felt difficult to embody. But this program, it's not about, it's not about, it's not about like your addiction, right? That's, that's a manifestation of something else, right? It is about coming back to yourself, loving yourself, healing those wounds.

Mm-hmm.

And just stepping into life as somebody who doesn't need something to supplement their existence, right? I, we are already good enough. We just have to realize it, you know? And it was through meth that I was able to realize it. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for you and I'm grateful for this experience. Great.

Good. Great. Thank you. And did I leave anything out? Is there anything you wanted to make sure you mention or say or get into the podcast?

I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Covered a lot of ground.

We did.

Well, Matthew, you're a joy, really a joy. And I'm so glad to know you. I'm really just very impressed. What a turnaround in 3 fucking months. Just what a turnaround. If we could have just recorded that first session when you were just a mess. Right.

Yeah. Switching.

A mess.

Not looking at you. Yeah. Yeah.

Looking, you were looking away. You were jittery. You couldn't sit still. You were just not in your body.

Right.

You were so disassociated from yourself that I just wanted to reach through and just Grab you and just set you down and like, look into my eyes without looking away for 5 seconds, you know? Um, but you, you've really, you know, you, you, you can credit the program all you want, but you've really, you came in with a heart's decision in your heart, whether you knew it or not, you had decided.

Yeah.

To stop. You had decided to embody an identity of someone who doesn't use, right? It wasn't— you had moved from head. The logic says, I need to quit so I can work. I need to quit so I don't lose my job. I need to quit so my parents will let me stay there. I need to quit, blah, blah, blah, to get, you know, to get my family and friends to like me again. I need to quit for all these logical reasons. That is not going to sustain you. But you came in with a heart full of, I'm ready to be my true self. I'm ready to embrace that. And that's what it takes. So the program works, yes, but for somebody who has that heart decision, that's what really makes the trajectory possible.

Right. Absolutely. So thank you for saying that. Very well said.

And that's, that's you.

Yeah.

Oh, okay, guys. I hope you enjoyed this discussion. I hope you enjoyed this story. Um, if you want to join in the discussion, you can start a thread under the YouTube video, or you can comment on Spotify. Uh, Matthew can decide if he wants to give his email or Instagram or whatever identifying information if you want to contact Matthew directly. If not, he will remain anonymous. Um, so that being said, I hope you enjoyed the episode and I will see you next week.

Thank you, Dallas.