EP 2:5 Weekend (Chemsex) Warriors with Joe and Dr. C

Hey y'all, season 2, season 2. We are off to such a fun start, and I've just dubbed this season harm reduction season because it seems like every single episode that's what's coming up. But I am so grateful you're here this week, and I'm so thankful that you've dedicated this time to learn more about the effects of meth use on the MSM population. This week is a very fun discussion with my new buddies from Los Angeles. Joe and Dr. C, they are part of a program called Party Wise. It's a group promoting harm reduction for meth users who are men who have sex with men in many, many different forms. Check out the website, the link will be in the show notes. I just love that there are programs like these out there, and I wish they would spread throughout the country. The reason I want you to know about what Party Wise does is to show you that there are other options than instant abstinence. There are people and programs out there who understand you and will meet you where you are with respect and dignity. And there are people like Dr. C who has the biggest heart for you— you, the meth user. She's offered her cell phone to anyone who needs support around the world. I hope she's ready. I just love that the 3 of us talk about a whole slew of things, but the main topic here is weekend warriors. What are they, and how will you know when your behavior is becoming detrimental? You see, many of y'all think you have meth under control, that you can contain it, and that you can negotiate with it. And I'm telling you, it's a dangerous game. I think you're really going to enjoy this discussion though, so pull up a chair or keep driving or close your eyes or walk the dog or whatever the hell you're doing and enjoy every minute of it. The Aftermeth Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic That is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. You know who I am. I am so grateful that you here. Grateful that you're taking the time out to listen and support the podcast and our mission to one day eradicate, hopefully, or at least lessen the chemsex epidemic among men who have sex with men. If you are listening to this, you care about that, and so I appreciate it. I would love for you to rate and review the podcast if you haven't already. Every time you do that, it— the algorithm says, hmm, this is a good podcast, and it sends it out to more and more people. So Please do that. Or if you've done it already, then share the podcast to your social media. I would appreciate that very much. Or just word of mouth, tell somebody about it. Let's get it into the hands of people who need to see it and hear it. Also, don't forget that we have a study guide that accompanies every episode. I want to offer as many free resources as I possibly can, and I put out a shit ton of content every single week. You cannot get bored with everything that I put out for free. So along with that is a, a study guide that gets sent to your mailbox with reflective questions, journal prompts, actionable exercises that go along with the episode. So if you want to get on that mailing list, just go to my website, drdallasbragg.com, and click on blog and it'll be there. Also, don't forget that there is a— speaking of free, There is a free course that you can take, free online course called Reframing Relapse. It's 30 days of video courses, journal prompts, guided meditations, and a free coaching session with me. So don't ever tell me I don't give anything away. All right, well, let's get started with this podcast episode. I'm really excited about it. We are talking about weekend warriors today, and I want to introduce 2 very, very quick friends of mine that we have met through all kinds of different networking, um, networking styles. Well, actually, thanks to social media. Um, but I'm excited to have these 2 on. But the first is Dr. Neva Chapette. Say that right?

Yeah.

We're gonna call her Dr. C from now on, but that is her name. She is a licensed psychologist with With 30-plus years of experience supervising staff burdened with multiple morbidities and treating patients burdened with those same morbidities— addiction, mental illness, and HIV/HCV. Some of her patients are also burdened with the minority stressors often tied to being a member of the LGBT community. Her specialty of providing treatment to multi-diagnosed individuals requires her to have a patient orientation that is Ooh, here comes a big word. Egalitarian and utilizes evidence-based treatments, which is EBTs, to meet patients where they are, which would be harm reduction. Thank you. Motivational interviewing. Lovely. Addiction medication. Yes. Stage of change model delineation. Now you see why I love Dr. C already. Through that approach, professional approach, Dr. C is better able to engage and retain patients while providing individualized integrated and comprehensive care to them. Ongoing collaborative work with other treatment teams like family members, probation, parole, DCFS, mental health, and medical care providers forms the basis for the integrated and comprehensive care she provides. What a woman! Reducing fragmentation of care and using a— how is this treatment episode going to be different than prior episodes? Oh my God, you say treatment episode?

That's what I—

that's what we say in my community. I love that. I didn't even— I haven't read this yet, so I love it. Forms the foundation of the egalitarian working relationship she has with her patients. Welcome, Dr. C. Wow.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And Joseph Coleman is hailing from Great Britain. This will be great for our UK audience, which is growing quite, quite quickly. By the way, Joe's career started in TV commercials production. However, after moving to Los Angeles, he pivoted into social services, making him maybe the only person who moved to LA to escape the film TV industry. Joe was hired as a case manager at an interim housing site in Venice during the height of the pandemic, helping unhoused individuals connect to essential resources. His clients came from diverse backgrounds, including those facing substance abuse issues, the LGBTQIA+ community. community and people with serious health conditions such as HIV/AIDS. Joe later transitioned into homelessness outreach, spearheading a Google-funded program targeting the streets of Venice, and assisted with Mayor Bass's Inside Safe program. He then returned to interim housing, program managing a site in Santa Monica, before taking on the role of program manager of substance use programs at APLA Health. Deeply committed to LGBTQIA+ community and individuals struggling with addiction, Joe is passionate about APLA Health's mission. He has witnessed firsthand the transformative power of compassionate trauma-informed care and harm reduction practices in helping people reclaim their lives. Wow, thank you, Joseph. Joseph or Joe?

I don't remember.

Joe is probably better. Joseph on my emails, Joe in the podcast. Okay, my buddies. And you're all buddies to me.

We're all buddies. Yeah, it's somehow this season has become harm reduction season for some reason. I mean, the first episode I did with Dr. David Fawcett was chemsex harm reduction. I have an episode on contingency management, I have an episode on ketamine that's coming out this week. I mean, there's— it's just the— it's the theme this, this season. So I'm so happy to have you two here.

Yeah, I'm— I mean, I'm happy that harm reduction is a theme. It should be the theme for every season. It's, uh, the theme for a reason.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, we are going to talk, at least start there. I don't know where we're going to go, but we're going to talk about weekend warriors today. And so if you're listening to this, if you don't know what that is, well, we don't either, but we're going to, we're going to figure it out tonight. Um, but you know who's typically referred to as a weekend warrior, um, and if that seems to be what you identify as, I'd like for you to keep listening. Or if you know someone who is using only on the weekends. You see them kind of, um, you know, getting maybe deeper and deeper into it, or maybe you think that they're using recreationally. Whatever it is, keep listening so that you can learn everything that you can, and we can learn too. But before we get to that, I want to talk to you, Joseph, real quick about APLA and PartyWise, because how we met was through your PartyWise Instagram page. So can you talk to me about what that is exactly?

Yeah. So APLA Health is the kind of the, you know, the big organization that we work under. It's AIDS Project Los Angeles. It's been around for 40 years, started as, you know, 4 people embedded in the community who were fighting, you know, the HIV/AIDS epidemic from day one before it even had, you know, was formerly kind of known as HIV/AIDS before people were understanding it really to kind of, you know, help, um, people who were going through it who at that time didn't have the kind of the medication and the means to even stop it. So truly, truly grassroots in its like truest sense of the word. And since then it's kind of been at the forefront of all of these, you know, major milestones that we've seen with progress made towards medication and care and has since, you know, kind of expanded to be a larger healthcare organization, but still with, you know, often an emphasis on kind of HIV care, AIDS, and working with the LGBTQIA+ population. You know, there's including, you know, trans communities, MSM, and beyond. It's, it's really, really kind of comprehensive. And within that, there are tons of different programs, and PartyWise is one of those programs. So that is the substance use, uh, kind of subdivision of APLA Health. And we are, we've been around for a while. I'm semi-new to the team, as my bio said. I've kind of, you know, jumped from different organizations working with, uh, the unhoused population and that'll kind of more specifically focusing on substance use. But yeah, we're, we're here to kind of provide care and resources and information to MSM specifically. So gay, bisexual men who have sex with men, who are looking to reduce or stop, or even just learn about their kind of their meth use. And, you know, listeners will know, they will know all too well that meth use is obviously like very prevalent in general, but specifically within the gay MSM community, there are very specific ties to, you know, meth use that are very unique to this population. So that's why we're focusing Specifically on that. And, you know, we utilize harm reduction as a, as a means to kind of, as a kind of framework, because it's proven to be effective for getting people to make safer choices that can then lead to them reducing their meth use or stopping if that need be. Or maybe they stop for a while and then relapse, but then will return back to it because we're that kind of safe, caring presence. So we provide a bunch of different services. We, we do contingency management, which you have the podcast on, so listen to that podcast. So yeah, people can earn, you know, up to $500 for doing that. And we also give out fentanyl and fentanyl test strips, not fentanyl, fentanyl test strips. That's harm reduction, maybe a little beyond what we're doing, but we give out fentanyl test strips and xylazine test strips free, no questions asked, that you can at least be testing your drugs. We have Narcan that we can give out. We lead harm reduction classes. We have health navigation sessions where we kind of work with clients on a one-on-one basis to kind of establish realistic goals they can work towards. Um, and we are going to be launching a kind of a CBT-based course, uh, run by a certified alcohol drug counselor in the city of West Hollywood. So Hmm. Now, something I probably should have mentioned is that APLA, the clue is in the name, APLA. We're based in LA, we're in Los Angeles. Most of our services are in Baldwin Hills for those who know the city, but we'll be launching classes in WeHo. And APLA as an organization is based all around the city and the county. So, and we have been working with Dr. Shapett in a, she's been kind of advising the program because of her You, you heard the bio, her immense kind of experience working within the community. She has been a total asset to the team, has taught us so much. And also, I wanted to shout out you, Dallas. Um, the reason we connected is because I was literally just, you know, stumbled across your podcast. I thought, After Meth Podcast, that seems relevant to the field. And I listened to it and it was just a breath of fresh air. It was, you know, to hear somebody just no holds barred going into the topics with authenticity and speaking candidly and getting these amazing speakers on who, you know, from across the country and across the world. It's a really great podcast. So I'm gonna say now, I was the one who reached out to you because I was just like, this is great. I want in on this. This is awesome. So thanks for even having us on, Dallas. Thanks for you know, having this platform, it's really, it's good just to talk about this stuff and to kind of put these things into words and destigmatize something that is just, you know, all too prevalent within the community, but people feel a lot of shame around. And we want them to not feel shame. We want them to receive the care and love that they deserve. And that's what our program does.

Yeah. Yeah, thank you.

Yes, um, uh, but Weekend Warriors is— that was a topic we— I kind of pitched to you, and yeah, in agreement that it was, uh, a good one to kind of try and define and figure out.

Yeah, yeah. Before we go on, Party Wise in the name, is that— is that you're saying If you want to party, if you cannot stop, at least be wise about it. Is that—

That's it in a nutshell. Right.

And so this is such a liberating— it's such a liberating but, but so hard to come by concept in this part of the country. I'm in the— I'm on the east side, right? And, you know, it's like, why are you enabling these people You know, why are you letting them? So what is a— before we go into Weekend Warrior, what, what would you say to somebody who says, why are you encouraging these guys to use meth, is what they will say. You know, that's, that's the, that's the, the kind of argument that I hear. What do you all say to that?

Age-old adage. And I'll give my answer to that, but I'd love also to hear Dr. C's answer on that as well. But the fact is, people are going to do it. People will do it anyway. There's people are going to party, they're going to use drugs, they're going to fall into these patterns. But the short answer that I give is that, well, number one is that we want people to stay alive and we want people to make healthy choices and make smarter choices. But the kind of thing that I always fall back onto is that it's proven to be effective contingent like contingency management, harm reduction, all of these kind of, um, practices statistically proven to work. It's proven that people can, you know, with the right care and attention and not dehumanizing people, that's how you effectively make change. And yeah, I mean, if we're not doing that, then people are going to make unsafe choices, they're going to continue making unsafe choices, and that leads to It's, you know, people getting horribly sick or dying, and it's a vicious cycle. Um, but Dr. C, if you have any thoughts on that.

And Dr. C, on your thoughts, is this harm reduction particularly effective for chemsex? That's my question too.

Well, I would say yes, with some qualifiers.

Okay.

So for some of my folks who are into chemsex or, you know, something of that nature, I always screen them for sex addiction.

Okay.

To see whether— who's driving the bus here, right? Is what addiction is preceding, leading, and making this linkage between drugs and sex so powerful? So I think one of the addictions that we don't, at least in my part of the world, and Joe's part of the world is mine, uh, we don't do a great job screening for sex addiction because it sounds like— I'll tell you what my clients tell Oh, please God, if I'm gonna have addiction, can it be sex?

Right, right. Yeah, right.

There's no such thing as a good addiction. Obviously, addiction will eventually just own you and destroy you and everything else.

Yeah.

So I think for chemsex, I have to kind of tease out what came first, what's driving what. Is there an underlying psychiatric struggle, internalized homophobia? Because, you know, a lot of my gay men were victimized sexually as young boys. Yeah. And so they also learned the power of sex to get their needs more met when indeed the family, the caretakers were maybe damaged people themselves.

Oh, right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What do you think though, that About sex addiction not being in the DSM? Like, because that's been brought up on the podcast several times.

I think it's absurd. I think it's absurd. Because listen, you can use anything in an addictive way. You can use the gym and working out, you can use marathons. And it's, you know, what you're using in an addictive way, or an obsessive compulsive wreckage accumulating way, is informative to somebody like me. But it's not really the problem. So with sex addiction, it should have been included in the DSM. Yeah. But you know, if you look at the DSM-5, which people like me can use to diagnose, they don't even use the term addiction. They talk about substance use disorders, right? I wish it— I wish it was that simple. Yeah, it isn't. So I think the authors of that section of the DSM made a huge error.

Yeah.

But for those of us who have been doing this work for a while, and probably many of your speakers, we know better.

You know better. Yeah. Yeah. You can spot it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

And something I would just quickly like to add is, and I'm sure this has been, you know, discussed plenty of times, but for some people, you know, 12-step and, you know, abstinence and that sort of approach is the Correct approach for you. We are absolutely not here to cast any judgment. There are, you know, plenty of different ways to kind of, you know, achieve your goals. And if that's the way for you, then we support it 1,000%. But we want to offer alternate options to that so that people don't feel alienated by one and therefore don't receive help in a way that's kind of more conducive to their journey.

Yeah, thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that, because I do, I do always have to put a little asterisk in what I'm saying, in that I'm not anti-12 steps. I just, I am pro offering every option for you and, and not, and not making you feel even more guilty by forcing you into an abstinence route, you know, that, you know, it's just, it's, it's counterintuitive, you know. So, so weekend warriors, let me tell you about a conversation. This was so timely that I had today, uh, was, um, I get— I have free consultations, you know, for, for men who want to work with me. So he tells me, he says, I'm not a regular user, I just relapse every weekend. And so I thought that was kind of cute, um, but I was like, whatever, you know, whatever you have to say. But But, you know, he— the way he described his life is how I would define a weekend warrior. And that is Mondays are hell on earth, right? After you've used, you stumble. If you make it to work, you, you stumble into work and you're not there, you know, because you're trying to come down. The brain— you're, you're probably hand on dick all day, you know. You're probably, you know, scrolling on Grindr while you're at work. Listen, this is—

I know.

I know how it is from experience. You get stuck in the bathroom stall on Grindr and all of a sudden it's been 3 hours. This is Monday, right? You try to sleep Tuesday. You may have taken your Xanax or whatever it is to make you pass out. And then so Tuesday you're a little bit better. Wednesday you're, you're, you're functioning pretty well. Thursday you forgot everything that happened. The whole week and you start making plans, your body— I think now this, you may know of actual research of this, Dr. C, but what I find with my clients is Thursday, Thursday evening, it feels like they, they can't sleep well because they, they get this injection of adrenaline. The body is preparing itself to be blasted on Thursdays.

Yes.

And then Friday they make the deal and they're off to the races. To, to use for the weekend. Does that sound familiar to you too? That's what I would— yeah.

You see me chuckling, right? It's 100% familiar to me. I deal with it every day, all day, including sometimes the weekends. Here's where I think we have to understand when it becomes something more than weekend warriors.

Yeah.

Because, you know, euphemisms are making something sound more like fun and partying for a patient of mine who might be predisposed to addiction, the disease. You know, Monday's going to become Tuesday, Friday's going to become Thursday, and everything begins to coalesce around nothing other than what we used to call party and play.

Right.

Now we call it chemsex and a few other euphemisms or softening language. So this is very common to me, but what I try to help my patients understand is that This is your life, not mine. There is no judgment from me.

Hmm.

But I'm wondering if you realize the genetic predisposition in your biological family of origin for the disease of addiction.

Hmm.

And they look at me like, what?

Right?

So I say, listen, we're fairly knowledgeable now about the disease of addiction, no matter what form it takes.

Mm-hmm.

We know that it has a genetic load.

Mm-hmm.

We know that if it comes from both sides of the biological family, that that density of disease risk is stronger.

Mm-hmm.

We also know that if you had in utero exposure to drugs, alcohol, whatever the object of addiction was, then you're gonna have a hard time comprehending the seriousness of your risk. Because your brain is already normalized to believe that this drug is necessary, essential.

Mm-hmm.

So I help them sort of educate them a little bit about, look, you know, everybody in your family of origin, your biological family, you know, has deep density of the disease of addiction, no matter whether it's nicotine, working out, GHB, it doesn't matter. The object is informative of your obsession. And it's very informative to somebody like me because I'm looking for what they are wanting, needing, or desiring from this behavior.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, yes, my, my response is that I deal with this all the time. And what I try to help them tease out is not about, you know, my way or the highway or any of that craziness, but But we have to be realistic about your proclivity or tendency to maybe take this too far because your mom did it, your brothers have done it, your sisters are doing it, and it's deep density of the disease.

Mm-hmm.

So for some of my folks, they can party for quite a while.

Mm-hmm.

And usually I get the call when they're either incarcerated, you know, from some back alley sexual activity Or they've picked up HIV, gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia. But the 3 of us on this Zoom certainly knows that no one should get HIV anymore.

That's right.

Especially the millennials. I'm like, what? And no one has— no one has to get chlamydia, gonorrhea, or syphilis. We have doxy.

That's right.

Okay. Yeah. So we have a whole lot of harm reduction strategies that have nothing to do with putting a condom on.

Right.

Because we all know if you're a male and you're a meth user, sooner or later you're going to struggle with erectile dysfunction.

Yeah.

And delayed and delayed ejaculation, which can then lead into domestic violence and other things in response to the frustration of wanting to have those things. But the— as my clients like to tell me, Dr. C, my equipment's not working anymore.

Yeah.

So the way I generally try to help them understand this is there's— listen, I'm a gay woman. I know what shame is. There is no shame coming from me towards you about what you choose to do with your life. However, if your own internalized homophobia is driving this huge amount of risk-taking to the point of Humiliation, you know, urinating in people's eyes, eating fecal material to get them hard or get them off. I mean, this is the degree of darkness that, you know, goes on.

Sure.

But that's not a bad thing. It just means that you become pretty preoccupied, obsessed, compulsive with. And now we have to decide what, if anything, you want to try to do. Slow your roll, take a timeout, Give up one medication for a little— one street drug for a little while. There's so many individualized things that I talk to my patients about that they can consider before they pick up disease.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. And so we can— I didn't define it, I guess I described it. But what would you say was a definition, Joseph, then?

I mean, and this is something that we were, we've been discussing and it's, it's interesting because I actually, in my head, I had this clear kind of defined version of what a weekend warrior, you know, was. And then I speak to colleagues and they're like, oh, interesting. Not heard that. Or they have a slightly different version of what that is. But I think you summarized it really well, Dallas, at least from my understanding. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, somebody who lives for the weekend, who is out partying for the entirety of the weekend. And that involves, you know, substances, that involves sex. And that is a weekend warrior, you know, in and of itself, somebody who is out partying all weekend, having sex, using drugs. The issues arise in that, you know, it bleeds out into everyday life. It bleeds out into your relationships when it starts to be all that you— it becomes an addiction. You're addicted to the drugs, obviously. You're addicted to the sex. You're addicted to that lifestyle and the rush that you're getting. And then obviously, as we've all addiction, something that might have started off as Saturday nights, Friday nights becomes the entire weekend. It becomes you're planning it on the Wednesday to score ASAP, to then begin on the Thursday, to then you're calling off sick on the Monday. So there are, I think, and You can obviously add your own kind of perspective on this, but it doesn't just happen overnight.

Mm-hmm.

It starts— it can escalate quickly, of course, but it starts with, you know, having a good time and it being good and it being fun and you wanting to extend that good time. And what's a better way of extending a good time? Well, drugs do, you know, they extend the night, they You know, it gives you that rush. It gives you that energy. Meth is an upper. It gives you that stamina. It gives you the you know the makes you last longer. And you know the thing is as well is that a lot of people, at least certainly to begin with, they can keep it relatively contained. They have their weekend life and they have their week life. And you know, in theory, if you could balance that all correctly, then that's amazing. But then the problem is is that. You lose control of that and you start— I think one of the things that we discussed was that, you know, how one of the things like that is worth kind of talking about is, you know, self-reflection, thinking, when am I starting to become a weekend warrior? What are the kind of telltale signs of when, you know, when X is happening, this is— this means that maybe I'm taking this too far.

Yes.

When you're hanging out with a sketchier crowd of people, when you're calling off, you know, this is the 4th week in a row you've called off on a Monday, that sort of thing. But, you know, again, I did the opposite then. I, I tried to start with a succinct definition and then it kind of just like Being a weekend warrior spiral.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Simple spiral.

But yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, okay, thank you. And the doctor— so, Dr. C, if I, if I think that I'm a weekend warrior, so if I'm weak, I'm using on the weekends, what are some signs that I'm slipping? So, and what would you say— well, what would you say to a client who says, I've got this under control, I'm fine to do it only on the weekends?

You know, I probably won't challenge it. I'll probably say, okay, I'm happy to hear that, Bev. Let's talk about what you have in place and let's see if we can add anything else.

Nice.

Keep you safe so you can continue to enjoy your lifestyle and your partying.

Okay.

So that's what I generally do because I don't need to lecture people about what their moral behavior should be and all this other stuff. I'm So many of my gay men have already suffered so much in their lives from all kinds of things that the last thing I want to do is resemble that. So when they tell me, I think I'm good, I say, okay, well, tell me what makes you think that way.

Okay.

And are— can we— are you open to talking to me about maybe the things you have in place and maybe the things you would be willing to consider adding to what you already have. Because remember, the program is called PartyWise. It doesn't say no partying. It says PartyWise.

Right.

Wise has a lot to do with knowledge. If you don't know what doxy-PEP is, right, or what HIV PrEP is, or, you know, other things like vaccines, then I think we are providing them with a You know, we gone from wear a condom all the time, which no one ever did. I mean, I don't know who they're talking to, right?

You'll get thrown out of a party if you have a condom. If you take out a condom.

Yes, totally, right? Totally. Unless it's got drugs in it.

Yeah, right. That's right.

So, you know, I try to help my patients expand their knowledge base, not just about the disease of addiction, but because a lot of my patients who get a bit out of control, I say to them, listen, stop beating yourself up. This is an illness. You genetically inherited it from your biological family of origin. It was normalized by them. And then there's a subset of the LGBT community that also normalizes it.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, when you think about— when I think about addiction and when I teach about it, I always say, if you cut through all the mumbo-jumbo and technical stuff about addiction, It's really an attachment disorder. Because so many of us from the LGBT world, we've been ridiculed, judged, shamed, you know, just awful stuff. And the people we were supposed to attach to were the perpetrators. So with, with my patients, I try to say, okay, that's enough of the self-loathing. And I tell them self-flagellation. They go, oh, we're going to talk about whips? I go, Of course. We can if you want to, but I'm talking about what you do to yourself internally. Right. And what you have to— because, you know, my clients will say, I have to shut this head up so the other one can do what it wants.

Yeah.

Sorry about my graphicness, but you know what I'm saying. Yes.

Yes.

And I, and I usually ask them, I said, what head am I talking to right now?

That's good.

And they laugh too, because they don't really run into doctors, too many doctors like this, right? Thank God, right?

Right.

So I don't know, I think, I think if we, if as a community, the LGBT community looks at the damage that has been done to us.

Yeah.

And how some of our out-of-control behavior is a direct reaction to that.

Mm-hmm.

Like, F you, right? I'm gonna do what I want. And, you know, a lot of my heterosexual patients will tell me, I wish I was a gay man. I say, you and every other straight man that I know wishes they were a gay man, because you don't have to spend a whole lot of money trying to wine and dine someone to get laid.

That's right. Right?

Nope. And, you know, now with the websites, you can find out how many blocks over—

That's right.

You got a hookup. So the ease of this is amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the— of course, you know, we've— I've talked many, many times on the podcast about, uh, Grindr, Sniffies, all the sites, all the apps. Just, you know, it's, it's a digital drug dealer right in your pocket. You know, it's just so accessible. Um, so The, the guy I talked to today, his route to become a weekend warrior was he used about every 3 months, then he started using about every other month, then he started using once a month. Now it's every weekend. And, and then it goes the opposite way sometimes. Well, I was thinking of— no, it doesn't. Like, for me, I started— I had my kids every other week, so I would use every other weekend when I first started.

Yeah.

And then I said, well, I'll just use on the weeks I don't have the kids. So the weekends turned into the week they didn't have the kids, and then slowly I just started using when the kids were in the house. And so that's— so I wanted to bring that up to say, if you see your, your uses getting closer and closer, you know, the— to me, a weekend warrior is the last stage. If you have a, if you have a job, that's your last stage before you're going to hit that rock bottom. Is that true?

Is that—

do you all agree with that?

I agree with it, and I would like to just add a couple of things. Any addiction, no matter what you're attached to, because it's an attachment disorder, it will eventually become more frequent, more— and you know, you're high before you get the drug. Yes. Yeah. You're high before you get the hookup. Right. Yeah, you're in the anticipatory thinking about, oh my God, this is gonna happen. I just got to start preparing for it. Now, there's a lot of foreplay that goes into what we're talking about, because, you know, they're getting their, you know, they're doing the enemas, or I call it colonics.

Yeah.

Because it's that deep preparation done, and they have the prep I'm sorry, the PEP medication to start taking it. It's there's it's a whole lifestyle. And if you have been shamed about your sexual orientation and what you like, you're basically saying F you. I'm gonna do what I want, and I'm gonna enjoy myself a thousand percent.

Yeah, I think you've raised a really good point there, Doctor C. The in terms of like. The addiction and the high starting before the weekend's even started. Like, when your mind is like, you're getting that rush because you're anticipating the weekend, because you're anticipating what a good time it'll be. The, the high that you're getting from the drugs and the sex and the partying and the good time, like, you're already— you've got the blinders on because that's all you can focus on, and it's giving you that rush, and it's causing you to kind of— make those decisions. Um, so I think that was a really, really valid point.

And the other thing I'd like to add, babe, is that I always talk to my patients about, okay, I want you to party for as long as you want to party, babe. This is not my life, it's yours. I just want you to not come away with a ton of wreckage, right? Like a police arrest for, you know, seducing the cop. In the back alley, right?

I've tried that before.

Yes, many people have.

Didn't go over well. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The wreck— I call it wreckage. The wreckage accumulation can be medical, it can be political. I mean, it can be, uh, legal. It can be your relationship now has to be open to keep you at home. Yeah, when you don't really want an open relationship, but you're pretending it's okay. So there's a lot of layers of consequences that are happening, which is classic addiction, that no matter who we're talking about or what form of addiction, the, the consequences become normalized to you because everybody you're hanging out with has got the same consequences. So you're like, oh, it's no big deal.

Hmm, it's interesting.

But the wreckage accumulation, you know, is The kinds of things I hear and see all the time is collect call from Los Angeles County Jail. It's one of my patients calling me collect, right?

Yeah.

And one of them called me the other night, Dr. C, I'm locked up. I said, what happened? Well, the dealer shorted me, so I called the police.

Interesting, interesting logic.

Well, you know, but that's how scrambled your brain becomes. When you're under the influence of the disease of addiction.

Yeah, I think kind of to the point of what are the telltale signs of becoming a weakened warrior, I think those are a couple of good, like, examples there. So I think the shortening of time between these kind of these drug binges and the increased amount that you are binging when you are. Yeah. is an example of that. I think the aftermath and the wreckage, whether that is with relationships, whether that is, you know, with incarceration, whether that's with how it's affecting your work life and your productivity, having those tangible examples of wreckage is another example on the other end of it. I was thinking, you know, when— because again, you know, There's nothing wrong with partying. There's nothing wrong with having a good time. There's nothing wrong with enjoying sex and enjoying these things. But I was trying to think what is an example, and I do think those are 2 great examples. Having shame, having those feelings of shame after you've gone out partying. Of course, everybody throughout their life, if they've Gone drunk or gone out or had a bit of a rager or whatever, they might make some regrettable decisions. They might have a little bit of a hangover or shame or something. But when that becomes the kind of prevailing feeling, like you don't feel good afterwards that you had this you know weekend binge, that you ended up in this orgy, or you ended up hooking up with that particular guy, when you're filled with that shame and the shame of having used You know, meth or whatever it was to kind of achieve those goals. I think that could be a telltale sign when you're catching that shame within yourself. It's like, okay, maybe this isn't the lifestyle for me. Maybe this is bleeding out in ways and affecting me in ways that you know I don't like and I don't want to continue doing. But then obviously the pull of addiction and the pull of the high and stuff is what. Draws people back. And we all know about the vicious cycle of meth use, numbing those feelings and putting the blinders on and giving you that, you know, making you feel that self-esteem that you're lacking due to internalized homophobia.

So Joe, let me, if I may, Ben.

Of course.

So as you, we all know, shame is enormous in the LGBT community. The message we have been giving is that I'm sorry I had you if you're going to be gay.

Yeah.

I mean, that's brutal stuff. And sometimes in order for them to have the sexual encounter, they have to make it humiliating.

Yes.

To drive, to drive that internal fight of This is shameful behavior, so humiliate me. I can give you an example if you'd like, but I think it's clear. Tell me what you need.

You can give an example. Um, it— I would give an example, yes. Um, and, and I know that someone's going to relate to it because I, I hear it so often, like, I want to be treated like a human toilet or a piece of shit. Or, you know, tell me how terrible I am. You know, that kind of thing.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I, I've seen it way too much. It breaks my heart every time I've talked to patients about it because we started out as innocent children, right? But we were told we were worthless, hopeless, helpless, embarrassing, and a whole long list of other pejorative terms. So what I try to help my patients understand is that You're none of those things, man. You were taught to be those things because your family could not make peace with who you really are. And that's on them. That's not on you. They were ignorant and they chose to stay ignorant. And just because somebody gave you life, a parent, right, does not mean that you have to honor them when they treat you like shit.

Right.

So I think for a lot of my folks, they do well when they hear this kind of strong language coming from someone who, although is not a gay man, maybe in a previous life, I don't know, but who clearly knows the pain my gay men are in most of the time.

Yeah.

Yes. So, and I think that when they get— when they have an awakening about that, they go, oh, So is this retaliation and me taking control of the humiliation? So I come from a power position, although I'm being humiliated. It's very psychodynamically complex. So maybe another Zoom or—

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

But just understand that we can't— I don't think we could possibly minimize the amount of shame Many of us have encountered in our trying to make peace with who our authentic selves.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's very helpful to have— sorry, Dallas— it's very helpful to have a good strong provider help you understand that was all bullshit.

Yep, yeah, yeah. Which is why some of the abstinence programs do more harm than good. Right, because you're already shamed.

That's right.

Right, and then you get— you have to do a walk of shame every time you use.

Yes.

And so it just compounds. And so if I know I'm gonna have to do a walk of shame when I already feel like I'm a piece of shit anyway, I'm not going to go back. I'm just not going to. I'm going to go— I'd rather go and feel a temporary relief from my shame.

Absolutely. You got to do something with it.

Right, right, right.

Even though it might be self-defeating, the choice you make, it's how you have been programmed through all the years of your evolution.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you. And, and I want to pick up back on the anticipation in terms of what I was talking about on Thursday. So I, I feel like you're these weekend warriors, and this I'm going to expand on it too a little bit, but On Thursday, you forget everything you went through on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, right? It's the anticipation of the good time. You're like you said, you're already high. You're you're being injected with chemicals. That's why all of a sudden you you really can't sleep on Thursday nights. And so with my clients, I have them every day tell me how they slept because I will know. I can predict. When a using experience is coming, when their sleep starts becoming, you know, interrupted because their body is, is getting ready for it. And like you said, the, the anticipation— sometimes the, the, the most, the best time of the chemsex experience is in the talking about it, getting ready for it, on the way to it, imagining what it's going to be like. And then you get there and he's, you know, the guy is nothing like his pictures anyway, right? Um, but if I am in this cycle, yeah, right, I have a phone with Grindr and sniffies on it, I have a phone full of contacts, right? I have every— I'm living in LA where I could walk 2 blocks down to get it, and I'm stuck in it as a weekend warrior. What do you— what would you suggest would be some of the first steps for these guys to do?

I think the first thing for them to do is reach out to me because I know how to help them. And what I would do is I would say, okay, so are you feeling a bit out of control? Do you feel like you can't stop? They'll call me from the bathhouse. I can't get out the bathhouse. I'm like, I hear you.

Yeah.

So I get it. And maybe we're at a time where you need to take a timeout from this. So, and if nothing else, no other reason, and they get this and laugh, to reset the tolerance clock, because there's only so much you can do before, you know, your penis is no longer working.

Right, right. Or your ass is obliterated.

That's exactly right. You've been plowing for the, like, the last 6 weeks.

Right, right.

So, right. So I try to develop a relationship with them first. Figure out what's the bigger picture. Is there psych here? Is there trauma here? The answer is usually yes and yes, because PTSD is very common in the LGBT community.

Yeah.

And then I also try to help them understand that I'm not here to tell them what to do. I'm here to help them figure out what they're ready to maybe do. And then I'll say, listen, at the very least, how much money are How are you getting the drug? How many people do you have to blow? How many people who have to plow you, right, before, you know, you get the drug? Because, you know, not, not much is free.

Right.

Yeah.

And I had a patient this week, actually, who made $6,000 in one night.

Wow.

As a weekend warrior.

Yeah.

And the stuff that he was asked to engage in was so humiliating and degrading. But not as humiliating and degrading as what the actual hookup wanted.

Oh wow.

Exactly.

Wow.

So it gets very— it can get very dark, very quick.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's tricky. And there, as we've said, there isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of approach. I mean, if you have somebody, you know, in your corner like Dr. Shappett, that's incredible. Um, it, you know, there are people, as we've said, there's listeners here from across the country and across the world.

Yeah.

I think, you know, if there are certain harm reduction-based programs in your kind of area, it's worth Googling. It's worth finding out if those exist. I know that in LA we're incredibly privileged, um, to have a lot of resources, relatively speaking. People don't always have that. In terms of practical steps that I can think of, and these aren't always— this isn't the be-all end-all, of course. Um, you know, there are very simple little measures that you can take, like deleting the apps off your phone, blocking, you know, access to websites. I'm somebody, I'll delete Instagram off my phone and 20 minutes later I've re-downloaded it. Um, so I know that, that, you know, that doesn't always work, but that can be a step for some people.

Yeah.

You can find ways or like Settings in your phone that you can actually disable these apps if that's the trigger for you. Deleting the contacts from your phone so that your automatic, you know, instinct is to just scroll, click, call that person. Delete that contact. You know, having confidence and having you know friends who maybe understand who could redirect you, or like that you can just talk it out with them. And that's where we get into, you know, tricky territory as well, because we've talked all about shame. It is incredibly vulnerable to let anybody know that you have— you're struggling with a meth addiction. People love the weekend warrior when they're the life of the party, when they're people. It's that cruel irony of, you know, when you're there at the weekend, you're the fun person to hang out with. But as soon as it bleeds out into daily life and it becomes a little problematic, then suddenly it's like, oh, the stigma of meth. Get away, get away. And it's, you know, ew, meth. So, you know, it's a twofold thing. It's having the confidence in yourself to even acknowledge it and to kind of work past that shame and to tell people. And on the flip side, it's to not, you know, as a receiving party, to be open to it and to approach it in a nonjudgmental way. And to— and that's all easier said than done. I know that one of the things that, you know, when I, you know, something that helped me quit nicotine, which is totally different, you know, but one of the things that I found effective was playing the tape out in my head. Yeah, so play it to the end. So okay, if I make this decision, this will lead to this, this will lead to this, this will lead to this. And when I would play it out all the way to the end, I was like, this isn't worth it in the long run. It is for the short high, of course, but when I play it out, like what this is going to mean and who it's going to disappoint, and like then I'll get stuck back in the loop and stuff, I was just like It's not worth it. But that can be a, you know, that's something you have to kind of train yourself to do is when you clock this is a trigger, this is an urge, it's acknowledging that first and then putting that into place. Those are just some things off the dome. I mean, Dallas, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as well.

Yes. Well, you know, I I tell— like I told this guy today, so if you're not going to take yourself to detox, if you're not going to go to treatment, if you think you can do this on your own, then guess what? You're going to have to get this away from you. You're going to have to get this away from you. Now, if you're not— I, I say change your number, you know. I mean, you tell— I, my— I call it going into the Witness Protection Program.

Mm-hmm.

You're going to have to change your identity And, you know, and get under the radar. Because yes, you can block the contacts, they're in your blocked contacts. Don't try to bullshit me because you're going to go into there when you get the jump, when you're high on Thursday or Friday, you know, before you're high, you're going to go into your deleted contacts to, you know. So to me, is you have to take an extreme measure to get yourself through the weekend. You have to go stay with friends, have a girlfriend stay with you, sleep in your bed with you. Surrender your phone to someone, block the apps. I mean, there's a lot of things. Get creative and get sneaky. So I— that's what I ask guys. I'll say, if you're— if you had no phone in your hand, how— think about it, how would you get it? Okay, I would do this. I say, all right, so you're thinking like a— you're thinking like a meth addict. So that's what you would do. This is how you would get it. What safeguard can you put into place so you can't do that? Okay, so now that you can't do that, how else would you get it? Think, you know, because you, you know, we're the key— we're, we're kings of the loopholes when it comes to— it comes to this. It's like, I liken it to like a cat who wants outside and any little crack in the door and it's like, you know, jetting. It's like, you will find a way to get it. So I— to me, it's like, think of all the ways you would get it, put a roadblock in place. Get yourself through a couple of weekends because once you start feeling the difference in your body, you're hydrated, you're rested, you're actually eating, you know, and then you may actually show up for an event with family. You may actually go out to a movie with friends and you start saying, oh, there's life. This is what life was like before, you know. And so to me, that's, that, that's been my answer is you You— there's a lot of things you could do, but you have to be extreme about what I call handcuffing yourself away from access to it the very best you can for— from Thursday to Monday, just to get yourself through it. I don't know what you all think about that.

What I mean, you've described, uh, harm reduction in a nutshell. That's, that's it. It's making those, you know, say those safe, sensible choices to kind of remove yourself from dangerous situation. Um, that's what it is. I think that, uh, at least from my perspective, that's kind of— those are the steps that you should be taking. Um, and I think what you said as well is kind of on that note as well, getting people to really think about like, oh, just coming up with an idea, well, is that— but is that actually going to stop you if you just delete the app off your phone? Well, you could end up re-downloading it. So actually thinking, what, you know, well then what, well then what, and then putting those steps in place. I will also add as well, you know, if you do slip up, to not— again, it's that going into that kind of not beating yourself up about it, but thinking, what went wrong this time? How can I rectify this moving forward? You know, not to be like defeatist and like, well, that didn't work and therefore there's no hope. This can't be done.

Yeah.

You know, that would be my thought.

That's right. Dr. C, do you have anything to— anything for that?

Well, I— my suggestion is that I have to first understand the depth of use that's been going on.

Yeah.

Because you get to a certain point, especially with meth, where The prefrontal cortex is asleep. This is the executive making decisions. Let me not do self-defeating shit, right? So depending on how deep they already are into this lifestyle, because remember, it's not just giving up a drug, it's not just giving up sex, it's giving up an entire existence, an identity.

Yeah.

What, and what do most gay people who are not partying on the weekend do? Some boring shit.

Game night.

So we have to understand that a lot of people are going to lose a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Once they start rolling back this lifestyle. And as a result of that, the pull to go back is profound. Because, you know, I tell my clients, okay, so listen, if you decide you want to take a timeout, I'm all with you, man. I want you to do what you want to do. But the reality is, uh, you're gonna be so triggered on Friday around midnight that I would expect you to really— unless you have padded yourself with a sponsor, sponsees, sober friends, activities that are not going to involve what you are desiring It's almost impossible to avoid it. Yeah, I mean, meth—

go ahead. No, no, I— no, I— yeah, no, go ahead.

Yeah, so with, with meth, the power of meth is that rapid blood-brain barrier penetration, not just to a pocketed place in the brain but through the brain, um, highly attached to Uh, freedom. Gay men want freedom.

Yeah, yeah.

The lesbians are too busy moving in with each other.

Right.

Okay, and try and becoming— then lesbians are too ready to become sexually anorexic because now they moved in.

Yeah.

So the difference on the spectrum between the lesbian side and the gay man's side is like day and night.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Uh, but I would say, to keep it simple, is that with meth use, for my gay men, it is a— it is the perfect party drug.

Yeah.

100% perfect. It allows you to get rid of body shame. It allows you to be more confident in the club, the party, the circuit scene, whatever the hell is going on, right? It also will make you look slimmer than you typically were before you started meth, and it will make you more sexually provocative and available. So from a gay male perspective, I'm like checking all the boxes. Okay, okay, I get this.

Yeah, yeah, yes. And it also takes away— it takes— I've said this before, but it takes away any shame that was there Is internalized homophobia, but also sexual anxiety is what I'm hearing a lot.

Yes.

Sober sex is, you know, I can't bottom unless I'm using meth because I'm tight, too tight, right? Or I can't top when I'm using meth. You know, I can't top without meth because I'm too in my head about, will I do this right? Will I perform enough? You know, then you can't top on meth anyway because you're limp. But right, but thank you. But we have Trimix and Viagra and all of that kind of stuff too.

Yeah.

But I hear a lot of guys, they're so— they get so anxious about sober sex that, you know, meth just gives them what— it's such a shortcut, you know, to give them what they want, this unbridled, unfettered sexual experience. Instead of working on what the source of the anxiety is in the first place, right?

Yes. Yes. And a lot of times it has to do with, you know, indoctrinated shame from the church, your religion, your country, all of that stuff. But I think for a lot of my patients, they are open to at least exploring what's driving this. To the point where they are now making a lot of self-defeating choices, and that's the way I talk about it—not bad or good choices, but choices that come with you feeling bad about yourself. When you start feeling bad about yourself, then I think there is a window of opportunity for me to crawl in and say, "Well, let's talk about this, and let's figure out how you can still party if that's what." Tell me what you want to do. One of them said to me the other night, I need you to fix my dick. I was like, okay, so you know you're talking to a gay woman. So let's just start with that. I use humor. I use humor a lot. Yeah, because I want them to know I like them. Yeah. I want them to know that even though I'm not a gay man, I— thousands of gay men in my professional life. Yeah. And some of them have 20 and 30 years of real recovery now. Even with HIV positivity.

Oh, yeah.

And with being sexually traumatized as a young boy, by either having the father or the stepfather or mom's newest boyfriend taking advantage of them. Because, you know, as gay people, most predators know we're good at holding secrets.

Mm-hmm.

And they want us to hold that secret as well.

Yeah, yeah, we can't, we can't give their secret because then we have to give our secret that we're gay, right?

100%. Yeah, and that's like locked down with deadbolts and chains.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and so the thing about the Weekend Warriors If you see it, you know, it's not all like this, but if you see it as the last stage before you— you like, when you lose your job, to me, you're on the downhill. You're, you're, you're on that rock bottom. You're going to the rock bottom. That, that's how it happened with me, right? In the first day I called out of my job, you know, the guy I was with was like, it started. You're, you're you're, you're on the, you're on the decline now. And I'm talking to this guy with no job, no car, no money, but he could fuck. But he could fuck really well, you know. And so he said, you, you just called out of work, that's the sign, you know. So—

Yeah.

So if you weekend warriors, you're calling out of work, you— it may not seem like a big deal, and maybe you have plenty of PTO right now. But it's slow and it's insidious and it's subtle.

Yes, 100%, Bev. And I tell my folks, listen, you're going to start to accumulate loss— loss of a lover, loss of friends, loss of the enablers in your family of origin who are guilty because they didn't treat you well because you're a gay boy. But the losses are going to become more frequent and more severe. Yeah, that's a— those are— and I tell them all the time, these are huge red flags that I'm waving. So instead of looking at how pretty the red is— yeah, you know what I'm saying, right? Yeah, yeah. You might want to realize that you really are headed in the wrong direction, and it can take everything from you.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's what I'm hoping with this podcast is that, you know, If there are listeners that are recognizing, you know, some of these things that they haven't necessarily thought about in that much detail or necessarily put a word to it, but they're starting to notice some of this, that this could be preventative, that they could catch this. And, you know, regardless of whether, you know, this is newer in your life and it's causing wreckage, but not, you know, as you said, Dr. Dr. Bragg, Dallas. That's very formal. We're getting serious now, right? As you were saying, Dallas, you know, oh well, I've got plenty of PTO. It's fine. We all have those. Yeah, whatever. Like if you're starting to got that now, or even if you're you know it's become incredibly incredibly serious. I hope that people can realize that, number one, you're human. You have shame. You understandably have shame, but this shouldn't define you. And there are ways out of this. There are tools that you can use. There are techniques that you can use and to try and get ahead of this or to try and pull back from this lifestyle. It's totally doable. If you're in LA, then of course reach out to Dr. C, reach out to Partywise. I implore you, reach out to Partywise if you're in LA, because, you know, even if you don't feel comfortable talking to your friends about it, you can talk to us about it. You can be as candid, as graphic. You can slip up, you know, 2, 3, 20 times. We are here to assist you. Not everybody has that luxury of having those resources. And truth be told, with this, you know, current administration, who knows what resources will exist in, you know, a month's time, 5 months' time, whatever.

Yeah.

But that doesn't mean that you can't get out of this cycle. There are techniques that you can put in place, things that Dallas was talking about, steps that you can take to kind of remove yourselves from these situations to, you know, and but you have to look internally and recognize what is the trigger for me? What is, you know, and then how can I take a step to remove this trigger?

And the other thing I'd like to just add is I always ask my patients, I call them patients because Lord knows I have to have patience. Right? And so do they, because this is not a quick No. This is tedious.

Yeah.

So I say to them, what do you think would have to happen for you to go, oh shit, this is a problem?

Hmm.

And you can see the wheels, right? And I'll— they'll say, well, when I get arrested.

Mm-hmm.

When I pick up HIV. Now that doesn't mean that that's a fixed line in the sand. That means that they are thinking about wreckage accumulation.

Mm-hmm.

And how that could affect their careers, their lifestyle, and everything else. But I try to nail a little bit of something down. So when, you know, not if, but when we get to that point, I can say, remember we talked about what you think would have to happen to you for you to think, not me, you to think, oh shit, I'm out of control, Bev. I'm— and, and generally what I try to do is I say, listen, let me, let me just offer you a timeout at no cost. Let me get you into a detox unit that is LGBT owned and operated. Hello, right? That is staffed with LGBT folks where I work as a consultant. So they already go— it's like a warm handoff.

Hmm.

Now that may not be universal for a lot of other folks Obviously. But that's— you can't just find a treatment bed. People need treatment, not a bed.

Yeah.

They can get a bed at a shelter. But if we can match their needs— no homophobia, no AIDS phobia, no HIV phobia. Yes, I can talk about being a gay man in a recovery program without, you know, because some of my clients will call me, Dr. C, I'm in treatment. I go, where? And they'll tell me, I'm like, that's the wrong place. Yeah. They're gonna pray over you and try to see if they can get God to fix your gayness.

Right.

Which is horrible and not treatment.

Right. Right.

So I think wreckage accumulation and letting them set some lines, sands, you know, lines in the sands in the desert, so to speak. So when they get there, We can reconsider. Do we want to slow the train down? Take a timeout, I say.

Take a timeout.

Yeah, I ask them, what's the name of your penis? They go, what? I know it has a name. Come on. Right. You know, it's something like steel or rod. Right. Yeah. And I said, well, is your penis even working anymore? Right. Can you get it out? Because, you know, it's called Crystal Dick on the street here in LA.

Yeah, yeah.

And then of course, yeah, ejaculation becomes delayed, delayed, delayed. So nobody's pulling out anywhere. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it's— and the more they know you know, and I know Dallas, you get this, and Joe too, the more you know what goes on in these events with chemsex, the more they're going to trust you. And I'll say to them, let me give you a menu. Yeah, tell me if any of this sounds familiar to you, and then maybe you are doing it. Felching, rimming, fisting. Yeah, one of mine is doing Natural Harvest. You guys know what that is?

Natural Harvest? I was gonna say sounding, but Natural Harvest, uh, no. What is that?

It's a funny story, babe. So, and if I didn't have a sense of humor, I'd be in all kinds of psych beds. Natural Harvest, if you Google it, you'll see that it's a book. I think from Vermont, because, you know, there's some freak up there in Vermont. Yeah. And it teaches you how to collect semen, store it, and use it in your coffee salad dressing.

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A protein shake, right? It's— one of my patients gave me the book for a Christmas gift. Yeah, I loved it.

Yeah, no, yeah, I did know a dealer who had sperm icicles. I mean, sperm ice cubes.

Yes, exactly. And when you know this kind of stuff, and I say, okay, felching, rimming, fisting, snowballing, you know, whatever the right language is for whoever I'm talking to, right?

Yeah. They're like, oh shit, this girl knows a lot of stuff.

Maybe she was a gay man in her previous life. All right.

Right. Yeah.

So that can break the ice a lot of times, no pun intended, Dallas. But maybe, maybe that can also let them know that you already know this shit, and there's nothing they probably could tell you that's gonna make— that's gonna be shameful in your eyes.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of times that's 80% of it, is just feeling like they're in an unconditional uh, you know, no judgment space, and the other person knows exactly what they've gone through, you know.

Exactly.

That's, that's 80% of the, of the, of the work right there. Um, and one thing I would add to— back to a weekend warrior who says, I can't control it— is what I say to my clients is, okay, let's do— let's test it, right? You, you want to control it? Let's set it up, right? This is a planned use. You know, when do you start? When do you end? How much are you going to use? That kind of thing. And what happens is most of the time it does— goes not as planned whatsoever, right? But they have to learn that on their own, right?

Oh yeah.

And then they've learned it on their own and they know in their heart, I cannot do this. But if I sit here and tell them you can't do that, yeah, it does not work.

Yeah, right. I agree. And that's why I give them as much leeway as they want. And then we talk about how that played out and what do they make of that, because I don't want to be their mother or the priest or any of that shit, right? So I think what— I agree with what you do 100%. I do this very similar to that. And I make sure my— and you know, I love my gay men. I'm like, honey, let me help you. I know how to help you. I know I'm a lesbian, but I get this.

Yes, you do.

Yeah, they need to feel the love.

Yeah, exactly.

With boundaries, of course.

The bottom line, right?

Love with boundaries.

Yeah. Yeah, with boundaries. Good. Wow. Well, I think we covered a lot. What did I miss? What did I not ask about that maybe I should have? Or what did I— what did I miss today? You think anything?

I think we— I think we covered a lot. I think hopefully people can actually put a name to something that they might have experienced, be experiencing themselves. And then, yeah, I really hope that this resonates with, um, some of your audience and that they can either, you know, whether it's for themselves or for a friend, then they can start taking the appropriate steps. And again, I can't emphasize enough, come to Partywise. Contact Partywise if you're in LA. If you're not in LA, I could still probably answer an email and point you in some sort of direction, but— In LA, please come because, you know, we are for MSM, gay bisexual men. You know, we speak the language, as Dr. C said. We're, you know, of this world and here to assist. It can, you know, you can break these cycles. Um, and yeah, and again, thank you, Dr. C. You're the fountain of knowledge that guides us. And, you know, you have helped so many people. And yeah, I really appreciate that, you know, we have this platform and hopefully people do have questions. They have further questions that we haven't asked and maybe this could be addressed in the future, whether through the podcast or whatever it is. Um, you know, there's definitely more things to ask or more nuances, I'm sure. So.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. I would love to hear what people have to say and what questions people bring to the table. That would be super interesting.

And Dallas, if I can ever help someone who you're consulting with or working with, yes, you know my name is on billboards out here in Los Angeles. Got a problem? Call Dr. C. I'm joking, but I love— listen, I don't even need to work anymore. I love the work.

Yeah, yeah, great. I love that. Well, we can put contact information for you in the show notes if you'd like. Yes, please. And same for Party Wise.

Yeah, the more people I can help and Party Wise can help, the happier I am. Yeah, yeah.

Yes, I can tell. I can tell you, you both have a heart for this cause and for these guys, and that's, that's what they need to know. They need to feel it, right?

They need— that's what they're searching for.

Yeah.

Because, you know, even with sex addiction, I say, well, are you seeking love through sex? Because good luck with that, man.

Yeah. Right. Intimacy.

Yes, exactly.

Right. Yeah. And so if you are listening and you think you're a weekend warrior, you still have a job, you're still, you're, you're still keeping it all together somehow. It's like a plate spinner, you know, I've got all these plates spinning in the air. If you're at that place, Now's the time to do something about it before it all crashes down, all the plates crash down around you. You don't want to be jobless, trust me. Um, you don't want to end up at the police raid at the, you know, at the cheap-ass hotel. You know, I've been there when the police show up. You just— there's— you're taking a risk every single time. And you guys that are not testing For fentanyl, before you shove it in your veins, please test it first. Please test it first. Bring— get some needle exchanges, get some alcohol swabs, even down to— I talked about this in the harm reduction— even down to biotin spray for your gums. Keep them, keep them nice and hydrated. Bring— I used to have a gallon jug of water because you lose everything when you're on meth. You can't keep track of everything. Yeah. But a gallon jug, you can see it and it doesn't fall over, right? Drink your water too. So yes, there you go. Thank you too. Thank Joe, Dr. C. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This was really great. Thank you.

Good information.

I know we're going to help a lot of people, like you said, around the world. Um, an Israeli online magazine just printed an article about me randomly. And so I've had this influx of guys from Tel Aviv contacting me. Um, so you just never know who's going to hear this podcast. So I'm really good.

Yeah, that's awesome to hear. And I can't wait to hear more episodes in the harm reduction season, as you say.

Yeah, harm reduction season.

Cool club to be part of.

I'm blessed. Good. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. All right, guys, if you have any comments, you know, you can comment. Down below the YouTube video. You can comment on Spotify, or you can just comment anywhere you see me on, uh, social media. You know that we are everywhere. So, all right, with that being said, we will see you next week.