EP 2:50: Top Pitfalls of Chemsex Recovery with Dallas and Bobby

Use us. There's 2 of us here. There's a group chat. There's all these outlets for you to say, hey guys, I just looked on Grindr. I'm having a craving. When you can call it out like that, it kills the life of it. It may not quench it totally, but a lot of times it does. But it can really work wonders to take the charge out of it, to take the, the, the secretiveness, the the secretness of it out and really like put light on it and awareness, and that's what kills it. Light. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. You know me, I am Dallas, and I have my assistant coach with me, Bobby, today. If you want to check out Bobby's story, we have— we did an interview from Teacher to Tweaker, looked at Bobby's in-depth story of his experience with Chemsex. And now Bobby is working for Recovery Alchemy, working for me, and he does everything else. He does all the admin, all the social media posting, and he's assistant coach. So a lot to do there. Uh, you're a busy man, Bobby. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

So Bobby and I communicate probably, I don't know, 25, 30 times a day.

Um, maybe more.

Probably, maybe, probably more. Um, there's a lot happening with this, um, company that we've started. Um, there's a lot of demand, obviously. There's right now really not a lot of options out there. And so we're trying to keep up, trying to keep up. We're trying to scale in a way that it makes sense, that it doesn't cause burnout for me, which I've kind of been close lately. And also just gives us enough space where we can be as present as possible with who we have and not really focusing on getting more as much as let's lean into providing the best coaching experience that we can. So what we wanted to do today is I asked Bobby to come up with the 10 most impactful, we're going to call them pitfalls, that he sees in clients that inhibit them from their goals. So when we say inhibit them from their success, people are automatically going to think that that means not using. But we also have harm reduction, which it's all harm reduction. We have managed use clients who are tapering off or managing their use. We welcome them in the program as well. So success means meeting your goal, whatever goal that is. What we like to do is create a set of metrics that go beyond Just using or not using. Because when you, when you only grade your chemsex recovery on whether you've used or not, it's pass or fail. It's good or bad. And it inhibits your process, inhibits your progress. You have to create another set of metrics. And if you want to know more about that, check out the podcast I did with Adi Jaffe. He is just an amazing, prolific voice in recovery. And he talks about like, let's, what are the other metrics? How are your relationships? How did you respond to the last using episode, AKA relapse? What other, what else can we measure? Are you using less? You know, what else can we measure? Because gay men who come into this program, they're beaten down, their self-worth is shit. They have this belief that they're never going to make it. They have to see some progress. They have to see some type of accomplishment. And so what can we build in to help them build momentum instead of, did you use or not? Or when's the last time you used? That is not a question that if I'm asking that question ever with, for a client, it's for research, research data. That's it. It's not for whether he's doing well or not. We do not base your success on whether you've used or not. So anything you wanna add to that? Bobby, I tend to dominate conversation.

No, I think, I think you covered it all there. I think you covered it.

So I asked, what'd you say?

I'd just be repeating what you just said.

Okay. So I asked Bobby, I was like, what are the top 10 inhibitors, pitfalls to recovery that you see on our clients? And I'm going to come up with the top 10. We're not going to share them. Um, and then we're going to put them together. In for this podcast. So we're just now looking at this list at the same time, just to kind of see. I wanted to know how closely aligned they were, and they pretty, they pretty much are, but they're different. So all in all, you're probably going to have about 20 different things to look for if you are listening and you are in chemsex recovery. Maybe you're, maybe you're new, or maybe you've been there for a while and you're having difficulties. Uh, Whatever that may be, this may help you kind of look at and analyze your experience. And if you can point some of these out in your own experience, maybe that is what is holding you back. All right, I'm going to share this on the screen. So if you're watching, you can view it. If you're not watching, if you're only listening, then we're going to You can still benefit from it because I'm going to name them. So I didn't list mine in order of impact. Did you, Bobby?

No, I did not. Okay.

Okay. So here's what we'll do. I'm going to start with mine and I'm going to see if it matches up to yours anywhere and we'll go from there. So my number 1, and again, this isn't in order of importance, but this is something that I'm seeing across the board, quote unquote othering. Other guys in recovery, othering guys in recovery. So I'm looking at your list. I don't see that there, right?

Okay.

Um, I don't see that. So othering guys, and, and you can weigh in on this, is what I see is guys who come into this program, for whatever reason, they get into a group and they start to compare them, their own recovery To other, to others. And it goes both ways. If they see somebody doing really well, then it makes them feel bad. Or if they see somebody doing not well, it makes them feel better about themselves. But all in all, the othering means I'm not like them. You know, I've had guys come in the program who cannot even say the word meth, much less admit that they use it often. And then when they get into our group sessions, they get triggered and they get very uncomfortable because they're facing a mirror of, oh, wait a minute, I'm a meth user. Or if you want to say addict, go ahead, but you start labeling yourself. But then that gets so scary, you other them. Like, they are not like me. I don't need what they do. And then These same guys do not follow the program. And I try not to get this work-if-you-work-it kind of attitude in this program, and you've caught me on that a couple of times. However, the tools are there for a reason. Like, the tools have worked before. They worked for me. They worked for other guys. So at least try them. But these guys that other the group and say, I'm not like them. I'm not as bad as them. I don't need that kind of accountability. They're the ones that continue to relapse. They're the ones that refuse to do the program. They want to dominate the coaching session. Like, I'm just, I'm a bystander. You know, that we begin to compete when we have sessions. Because there's this, this need to control. And it's this need to not be a meth user. Even though you've enrolled in this program that helps men who have sex with men stop using, for some reason you think you're different, that you don't need to block your contacts. You don't need to change your phone number. You don't need to fill out the forms and go through the process. You don't need to contribute in the group or the chat. Because there's something different about you. And let me tell you, you ain't special. No, none of us here. That's the thing that we— this is the benefit of being in this coaching program too, is there is no hierarchy either. We don't share unless you want to how many days substance-free you've been. There are no old-timers or newcomers. We're all in this together, including me. I'm very vulnerable about my own battles. You know, I'm not perfect. I'm not some picture-perfect chemsex warrior either. So we're all in this on the same level, but these guys come in with this hierarchy-type thinking, and because it's too scary to admit they have a problem. That's my, that's what, anything you wanna say about that? Or have you noticed that?

Um, yes, I have noticed that. And I think, I think that's really important. Um, I've learned, especially in my own recovery, I could just talk In reference to myself, when I was in the early part of recovery, I did the exact same thing that certain clients did. When I would go into 12-step rooms, wherever I was in recovery, I would start judging other people. And that's exactly what I would do. I would literally sit there and the people who were worse than me, I'd be like, oh, thank God, I'm better than them. I'm not like them. So therefore, I didn't have an addiction. I didn't have a problem. And then the people who were doing really well, I would be like, oh, they're faking it, or they're not doing something right, or they're full of shit. You know, something like that. And I always noticed, like, when I look back now and when I realized that I do not do that anymore, it was really all the reflection on me and what my triggers were, what my weaknesses were. And I was just reflecting out on them.

Yeah. Yeah. I did the same thing when I went, so I was in drug court and I was more affluent. I was a white affluent gay man with mostly minorities. Who had like heroin problems, alcohol problems. This was a free, you know, like a free government system or system. And then we had to go to a certain rehab that was, you know, a state-run facility. So, you know, it was a certain class of person. I had the same thought. I walked, I was, I would be sitting there in the circle like, I am not like any of these people. You know, I am not like any of these people. And the counselors started to notice that. They didn't really say anything, but it was just finally toward the end, actually, of my rehab experience, they weren't going to let me out. They weren't going to let me go because of that. But they were, he was basically, the counselor was saying, we're, we're going to keep you. And I finally just said, you know what? I'm scared. I don't want to go. I don't want to get out because I think I'm going to use. And I don't, I think I've kind of phoned it in a lot here. And because I admitted that at the end, they did let me go because he's like, that's what we needed to hear. We needed to know that you are aware of where you actually are. It took me a long time to get there. Um, but that's, it blocked me from learning so much in rehab too. Um, and probably learning from the other people there instead of snubbing my nose at them. So agreed. And then, yeah. And then you talk, you talk whenever you want. Okay. I'll give you permission.

I was just gonna piggyback on that too, being that I'm in treatment court too, as of right now. Oh yeah. Same, same thing with me. Same thing with me in the beginning. And, and I've learned to humble myself and learn that, you know, I am there because I'm there for the exact same reason that they are there. And Doesn't matter what class you are. This doesn't discriminate. Addiction doesn't discriminate no matter what the drug is, no matter what your choice is. Once you're addicted to your drug of choice, you know, it all leads to the same path.

Yep. Yep. It's true. Okay. All right. So my number 2 is inconsistency. Um, yours, I'm looking down your num— your list here. Um, some of it has to do with inconsistency at its core. I don't see the, I don't see inconsistency. So you have, um, not having detailed plans.

Yeah.

Uh, that's being inconsistent. Um, but we'll go over, what we'll do is just, we'll go over each of these. How's that? Okay. Uh, because obviously, oddly, we don't really have matching ones.

I thought we would.

All right. Um, so inconsistency. Inconsistency is, so what do you have to do is think of, if you can see the board behind me, it's actually something that I've written, is think about the characteristics of a chemsex user, a meth user, whatever, methadone, monkey dust. Think about the characteristics that, that go along with using meth. You're inconsistent because you, you show up today, but you're gone tomorrow. Right? You, you may start a journal today, but you stop tomorrow, right? You're inconsistent. You're non-responsive. People text you, you don't reply because either you're high or you're coming down or you're too ashamed to reply back, right? There's certain characteristics of a meth user that if you can do the opposite of, keep, keep in mind, do the opposite of that in your recovery and you're not a meth user. It's that simple. But one of those is inconsistency. Is you, you know, if you have a meth user in your life, you cannot rely on that person. You cannot rely on them to meet you somewhere on time, to take you anywhere, to do anything for you, because you never know at what point they're going to be off on a bender or they're going to be coming down or whatever it is. They're inconsistently showing up in their life. And what in the program, we see this, we see somebody coming in, they're on fire, right? They want to, they want to change. They want to do all these things. A week later, they disappear. They stop replying. They're not in the group chat anymore. And then it's, it's the, the, the analogy I use is like a, it's like they're a rocket going around the, the Earth or something. Like they're here in front of you and then they disappear for a while and then they come back around. And it is fear for a while. You're never going to make progress like that. You have to really tune into a consistent daily action of some type, whether it be journaling and walking or gym or something, something to get you in the practice of doing the same thing every day because it grounds you into your recovery. It brings you back to reality and it reminds you Oh yeah, I'm trying to quit meth because we forget. This is why we have weekend warriors. By Friday, they forget what happened the fucking previous weekend that they, they, you know, they took a deep dive and it took them 3 days to recover, but by Friday they forget. This is how it is. It's amnesia. So inconsistency, I would say that's, that should be number one for me, is just, is here today, gone tomorrow. Back today, gone tomorrow. You're just, you're not sowing in the same action every day that creates a momentum toward your goal.

I would want to— oh yeah, of course I'm going to agree with you. But I would say that that is number one. That is number one. And, you know, for me, you know, when I was out there in my addiction, you know, I was very consistent on making sure that I had plenty of supply, plenty of what I needed. And I consistently had that every day. So now I consistently make sure it's not in my house every day. I consistently make sure that I do things to make sure that I'm not going to go down that path. And it's as simple as, I cannot leave the house at all without making my bed in the morning. I've always been like that, but it's just little things like that. For someone who maybe wasn't making their bed in their addiction or things like that. Just changing up your routine, putting in some activities that, you know, are building up some self-trust, building up some self-worth, even the very simple things as making your bed every morning before you leave. And I forget, there was some huge TED Talk on that, some military guy, I forget who, but I was pretty happy that they shared that whole just make your bed speech. That always is in my head.

Yeah. Because A lot of guys, they can't seem to correlate or tie into something like making your bed to stopping chemsex. They think they're separate things. And here's the thing, when you're in early chemsex recovery, everything is about recovery. Everything you do is about, ties into that. And it's the momentum of Not, you don't make your bed and then you don't do this and then you don't go to the gym and then you don't text your sponsor or your coach. And you know, it just, it leads into one or the other. And then you, you drop your boundaries and you scroll on Instagram too much. Then you see the naked guy on Instagram and then you wanna go on Twitter and then now all of a sudden you're watching using porn. You know, all that started with you not making your bed.

Yeah.

You know, it's, it's, you set the tone. How you do one thing is how you do everything. So if you're neglecting yourself in by not making your bed or doing a consistent daily action, then you're going to neglect your recovery too. Okay. I have number 3, not reaching out slash isolating. Um, okay. You match that navigating alone.

Yeah.

What I'm going to do is I think I'll put a line through these when we go over them. And navigating alone is, I'm assuming that does mean isolating, right? Not reaching out.

Yep. Isolate.

Yeah. Um, and then jumping into avoiding, changing the mind, not addressing. Okay. So not reaching out, isolating. Um, yeah. So what happens a lot is You're— these guys have so much shame that they don't want to admit when they have a craving or they don't want to admit when they have thoughts to use. You know, I had a client last night. We were in a group session. We did a 2-hour session. We've been working together all week. All along, he's been doing something.

Mm-hmm.

That is directly related to his use. Let's just say that. Let's just say it's getting on Grindr. That's not what it is, but he's been cruising on Grindr, right? I've been talking to this man all week, but he never mentioned it, right? It's like when you find yourself saying what you think you need to say or what your coach or recovery partner or sponsor or therapist wants to hear your partner just saying what they want to hear, but you're leaving a really core part out of the conversation, you know that you are brewing up a relapse. And it's, you have to reach out and say every time, I am having a craving. Like you can send it through voice memo, you can text it, you can call. You can say it out loud to yourself, something. But the more you keep that shit hidden, the more it grows, the more it festers. So isolating and not reaching out, that's gotta be number 2. Um, the number 2 thing that I see is you find out, I find out after the fact, after the relapse. Oh yeah, well, I was looking on Grindr. You didn't tell me. You know, and in our case, in this program, they're paying us to tell us, which I don't, you know, it's like, use us. There's 2 of us here. There's a group chat. There's all these outlets for you to say, hey guys, I just looked on Grindr. I'm having a craving. When you can call it out like that, it kills the life of it. It may not. quench it totally, but a lot of times it does. But it can really work wonders to take the charge out of it, to take the secretness of it out and really like put light on it and awareness. And that's what kills it. Light. It's like I always say, meth is like black mold, right? It grows in the dark, but you shine light on it, it's not going to live. And so we just not reaching out, isolate, and then isolating in terms of when you feel sad, you know, where you're feeling going through something hard and the, what you wanna do is just close up. And that is not going to get you anywhere in recovery either. So now let you talk.

Um, thank you. Uh, so I just add onto that for the isolating and not reaching out part. When we don't reach out and we do isolate and we start navigating alone, The, the worst place for me at least to be was in my own head. And when I'm alone and I'm not reaching out or talking to someone else, I start trying to figure it all out on my own.

Yeah.

It's just myself and I batting the ideas around and those ideas really don't come out successful. They, they don't come out in a good way. Normally, you know, uh, my left to my own devices and my own mind without reaching out or talking to someone else or someone in my support network. There's someone else who's going through this. You know, normally I don't end up in a very good place when that happens. So I think for me, the part where right in here you say it's just the isolating part is more for me, the importance of that is just making sure that you're not getting in your own head and that you're reaching out. So you make sure you need to, especially in early recovery, you need to verify your thoughts and your behaviors.

Mm-hmm.

At least I had to do that. I had to do that because You know, I had to build self-trust and in the beginning I may have thought I was trusting myself, but I learned very quickly that my, my brain very quickly knows how to go back into the addictive use before someone else helps me. So in the early recovery, especially. Yeah.

I love that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah. Trying to think your way out of it. What is that the 12-step people say? Stinking thinking, you know?

Yeah. Stinking thinking. And I didn't— left to your own devices. I think that's, I think I got it.

That's where I think. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Stinking thinking got you here. Right. Um, and it did, but you can't, you can't negotiate with chemsex in your brain. Like you cannot negotiate with it. You cannot leave any doors open. You cannot leave any chance for you to have to decide whether to use or not when you're in early recovery, because you're going to decide to use for the most part. Right? It's just too much of a gamble. Um, and trying to do this alone is just, it's, it's, it's all isolating in its own just to try to do it alone. You, most of the time you just cannot. Some people have, there are some people who have been able to stop, but they, they say they're doing it alone, but they also have a group of friends.

Yeah.

Even if the, even if the friends aren't aware of your meth use, A lot of times they help you get out of it through the connection, right? And through the support. And oftentimes they don't even know they're doing it. 'Cause there's many, many, many, I don't, I would say, I would say it's not, this is just a Dallas quote or statistic. More than half of gay men right now using, are using it without their friends knowing it. What do you think about that?

100%. And I remember, especially, I remember in my use, I would always love the, when I would have people over and it would be the, none of my friends know, my partner doesn't know. And then 2 days later, the partner's over, my partner doesn't know, my friends don't know.

And they're like, put it in the same group.

It's like, no one knows. And it's sad because that's what this drug does. It's like, methamphetamine is the most Carries the drug with the most shame. It does. Yeah. And especially in the gay community, we are very, um, we can be very stuck up in our way.

And, uh, you got it. You said it. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Um, my next one is lack of follow-through. Um, you Don't specifically have that, not having detailed plans. Um, let's, I think those are going to be similar. So let's, let's couple those together. Yeah. So lack of follow-through in the program. One of the keys to success is we're going to identify your danger zone. If your danger zone is the weekend, most of the times it is, Or your danger zone is one, I would say weekend is number 1. Number 2 is returning back from a trip, from a holiday or a business trip. Number 3 is being in a hotel room by yourself is a danger zone, right? And number 4, when your partner's gone that doesn't know you use or does know you use. And number 5 would be several days off in a row during the week. Like we have, uh, hospitality, people in hospitality or healthcare workers, they may work 3 days and have 4 days off. Uh, air, uh, air, uh, airline, not pilots. Well, maybe pilots, but—

Flight attendants.

Flight attendants.

Flight attendants.

There you go. Flight attendants. Ah, uh, flight attendants are a big one. Like there's so many flight attendants using, and they are, they are playing it like a science. Like they know when to start, when to stop, you know, but they eventually get drug tested. I mean, I, I've, the ones I've known anyway.

Yeah.

So those are off the top of my head. You could add some, is probably the, the biggest danger zones that, that are identified. If you know there's a danger zone coming up, let's say it is the weekend. What we do is we create a plan for you. And we have a whole fucking form for it, a plan for you that you look at the weekend and you decide where you're going to be every hour on the hour, who you're going to be with. You're going to make plans that are strategic. So you make a plan to meet grandma on Sunday morning for coffee. That's going to stop you, or at least try to, at least inhibit you. from going out on Saturday night. We're going to have check-ins planned with me, with Bobby, with your recovery network, your sponsor, your partner, whatever. You're going to look at that weekend and you're going to schedule it so that there's no room to use. You're going to have a plan for your phone. A lot of our clients buy a, what's called a brick or something like that. It locks your phone down. 8, 8, 8 PM to 8 AM, you can't access that damn phone. That's the best thing you could do anyway. Yeah, I think everybody should have that regardless. But the only thing you can do is call emergen— you know, 911 if you need it. You are going to pro— proactively plan your danger zone to keep you safe. Safeguards. It has to be there. You have to get out of this habit of allowing the weekend or your danger zone to happen to you. You may feel on Wednesday, I have no cravings. I have, there's no way I'm going to use. I'm feeling too good. Everything's great. That does not mean anything. You cannot base your recovery on how you feel. You have to base your recovery on what is right. And historically what's happened. And so you might feel great on Wednesday. That doesn't matter. You put the plan in place no matter how you feel, because I guarantee you on Friday at 10:00 PM, you're gonna get the itch and that guy with the big dick is gonna text you and it's on. And then you, you're spit out on Monday morning thinking, what happened? Right. So I say, I'm saying all that to say, like Bobby says, not having detailed plans. You don't have a plan in place or you don't follow through with it.

Yeah.

The, the biggest thing that I see is we create these detailed plans. We go into so much time of creating these plans for clients, and then we meet with them and we go through it and we revise and we, we have it. Solid, a solid plan. We have a reentry plan so that when you come back from a holiday, when you come back from a business trip, whatever, when you're coming back home, we have a reentry plan that takes you through the transition step by step. But it doesn't work. Here's the— if it works, if you work it, uh, but it doesn't work if you don't follow through. And some of these guys also, Have a daily recovery plan. There's, there's one, one in particular I'm thinking of right now who's had lots of success with this. I set up something for him to do every morning, noon, and night. It's a, it's creating routine. It's creating ritual. It's creating consistent daily action, but it doesn't work if it just sits in your computer or your phone and you don't follow through. It comes, this circles back into consistency as well, but not having a plan. And not following through with it. Biggest pitfall that, that maybe that's, I don't know, these are all number one.

Yeah.

But that's another huge one, at least number 3. So what do you think?

So the only thing I would add onto that is for mine, not having detailed plans. For me, again, early recovery and even in certain parts of my recovery, having like your calendar packed, packed with things to do in the beginning, cuz you don't wanna leave any opening. Because for me, especially in the beginning, you know, when I left an opening, that was a chance to use.

Yeah.

And I didn't want any of those chances. So when I had my schedule booked, I mean, from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed, I had plans, whether it be a meeting, going out with friends, going to my family's, scheduling lunch, going to the gym, taking a walk, whatever it was, I had something scheduled and I had accountability set up in that schedule as well. And I would go until I would go back to sleep at night. And that for at least the first 90 days, that, that's what I had to do. And for specific clients in our program, I've noticed that, you know, the biggest success I've seen is people who have the detailed plans, especially for the weekends, and who follow through on those plans. And then it, you don't have to be like that forever. As you go, you get further along in your recovery, you get more confidence.

Yeah.

You don't need to have your, your, your schedule packed every hour because you start gaining confidence in yourself. You start moving away from the drug and the plans don't have to be as detailed. I'd still have them in place, but you don't have to have them set for every hour of the day.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly right. Exactly right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that leads into a little side one here, and that is catastrophizing your life in early recovery as if that's the rest of your life, right? Like, listen, everything in life is temporary. Everything. So, but we say to these guys, you have to block Grindr. You have to plan your weekends. You have to share your location. You have to do all these things where that you don't have to, they're strongly recommended. But these guys will then just whine and cry and catastrophize and say, this is not how I want to live my life. It isn't how you're going to live your life, but it is how you're going to have to live your life right now. You have to invest this to get what you want. Peace, contentment, autonomy, love, empathy, compassion, all the stuff that you want to live with. You have to invest first. You can't just do— if you keep doing everything you've done, you're going to keep getting everything you've got. So you have to change something. This is only a temporary state of being. We don't have to monitor your location for the rest of your life. So I'm glad that you brought that up. Um, and there was something else you said that I was gonna build off of, but I can't remember now. Uh, I can't remember now, but yeah, keep it busy. Same with me. I, there's a, the podcast that I did on, I don't know which one it was, 7, might've been the, uh, what to do in 90 days or 7 steps for 90 days, 7 essential steps for 90 days.

Yeah.

Anyway, I talk about, yeah, in my early recovery, I was up at 5:00 AM to catch the stupid bus to get downtown because I lived 30 minutes out of downtown, uptown, as they call it in Charlotte. But to get uptown, to go to the courthouse, to pee in a cup, to ride public bus to the rehab. And then I went to the taco place and then I got home at 2:00 AM. Like, that was my life. Where was, there was no chance to use. Even though it was during that time I found a, you know, a prepared needle of meth in the bathroom. Um, there was something trying to get me to use, um, but yeah, I mean, I also, you have to balance this too. Like you wanna stay busy, but you don't wanna stay so busy that you're avoiding the work either because you're just gonna burn yourself out without doing any of the, the actual digging down and, and doing the work. So it's a balance. Okay. Dishonesty is my number 5.

Um, my number 10.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Your number 10 is being dishonest.

Oops.

Oh, here we go with the— I love Word, Microsoft Word. Okay. Being dishonest with yourself and support network. So dishonesty, we, that is, I guess that's the one that's probably the closest for us to line up to. Um, you know, there's not much to say here besides You know, this back to, back to making plans. What I see is there's dishonesty in that is I see guys strategically making a plan for the weekend that leaves a little chance. Like they, it, cuz this is how your meth brain works, is you'll say, okay, if I just leave this one evening, I'll bet I could get out at 11.

Mm-hmm.

Use and be back home by 8, which is bullshit for the most part. You know, there are some guys in this program who can go out and use for a couple of hours and come home. I, I'm still blown away by that. Still blown away by that. Now, they may recover for a few days, but how the hell do you do that? I mean, I don't know. Um, because I, Like I said last night in the group, you put a pipe on my lips, you won't see me for another month, 2 months probably. There's no stopping it once it happens. That's just my use, right? Um, that's just how I'm, I'm wired. And so anyway, I'll get off subject. But anyway, dishonesty in, and it's almost subconscious a lot of times too. You find yourself building in a consist— a contingency plan.

Mm-hmm.

Like, yeah, I don't wanna use this weekend. However, if I do, this is where I would do it. You know, you, or you plan a trip, a business trip. A lot of these guys are, if you know, are these in a place where they plan their own business trip calendar and they put a day on the end of it, right? Or they catch a flight that's 2 days later cuz they know they're gonna justify it in their mind to something else. But what that is, is giving you an opportunity to use in your hotel room before you come home.

Yeah.

Um, that's, that's dishonesty, but it's also meth brain. And that can help you because what I say to guys is, okay, I want you to put on your meth thinking cap right now. Look at the next week and really be sneaky about where would you use if you could? And then you plug that hole in, right? So it, it's, it's a detriment, but it's also a benefit. Um, so dishonesty of, obviously, it's just, you know, you're not, it's, it's lying about things, but it's also mostly for me, it's the omission. Omission is dishonest as well. Like I said, the guy not telling me he's been on Grindr and we talk almost every day, or, you know, just the omission of facts, um, or not, not telling me when you used. You know, being in it, sometimes it comes out of shame, but sometimes it's just, you're just dishonest. You want, you want this persona out there to exist of who you really are. You want people to look at you and think of you as a certain way and not admit, again, this goes back to, I see this also in those guys that other the other men. They're also very dishonest about their true, what happens behind closed doors because That will hurt, that will hurt that persona they've created and put them in the category of everybody else. Um, that's what I have to say about dishonesty.

I would just, what I would add onto that is for, for me, I would think that first you need to start being honest with other people because, you know, at least for me, I may not, getting honest with other people doesn't mean to me that I'm gonna be fully honest because I'm not ever going to be to me. as fully honest with somebody else as I am with myself. But I can judge how honest I'm being with somebody else on how honest I'm being with myself. Because like you said, sometimes it's just, you know, not, not, you're not consciously doing it. So like when I'm telling somebody else what my truth is, I, I know in my head what the real truth is. And then I can gauge how far apart are they. And if they're really far apart, I'm in trouble. I need, I need a scale.

Mm-hmm.

I need to stay out of it. The further they get apart, that's how I judge on how, how, um, subconsciously I'm being dishonest with myself. That's how I do it.

Yeah. Yes. Good point. That's great. Yeah. You can only be as honest with others as you are with yourself. Um, and honesty, a lot of times with men in the program come from, stop saying I'm never using again. Because that, to me, that's one of the first ways you can start to Be honest with yourself and just say, I want to use. It's okay to say that, right? And if you just say, if you change these wording, change the wording a little bit, instead of I'm not ever using again to I might use again. If I do, it's going to be a learning. It's a data point. It's a learning opportunity. It's one step closer to stopping. So you, that Feels, if you say it like that, you could tell in your body it feels true. If we get disconnected from our bodies in this, in chemsex, when you can start saying a sentence out loud and then feel how it is activated in your body, you'll begin to know what your body believes and what it doesn't believe because you've lied to yourself. I'm never using again. You know, when you're in the depths of despair after a relapse, I'm never using again. And then you use again. The subconscious studies that. The subconscious learns from your mistakes, even when you don't. And it will know when you're being honest and when you're being not, when you're not being honest. And if you keep saying, I'm not using again, everything, nothing changes. You keep using because you're lying to yourself. There's a lot of ways you can lie to yourself. And here's the thing is, A lot of these guys, it's me included, we have so many different personas out there and so many different stories where we're somebody at work, we're somebody with family, we're somebody with friends, we're somebody with meth, we're somebody on Grindr, we're somebody, we're somebody everywhere to the point where we don't know who we are and we don't know what's true and what isn't true. And you stop, you don't know when you're lying or not. It's so subconscious. It's so natural. That you just don't understand or even feel anymore. You're dissociated from yourself. So it starts with being very intentional about sentences like, I'm never using again. Changing it, keep saying it and changing it up until it feels true. It, it, until it feels more true. Like it's the same thing with affirmations with us. Is if you say, I am resilient, but you don't believe it, you're wasting your breath. And you can repeat it all day long, but you're basically, you're going to think of all the ways you're not resilient if you don't believe it. But even if you change it a little bit up with saying, I am becoming somebody who's more resilient. And then let that, say that and then feel that in your body. Does it feel more true? That's That's all we ask is it feel more true. Um, and, and you start there and then your body, your subconscious begins to believe what you have to say. And that starts that momentum of being honest with yourself. I think I had too much coffee today. Okay. Overconfidence is my next one on number 6. Overconfidence.

Um, I did not have that.

You did not have that. Okay. So this one's pretty self-explanatory, you know, is that this ties into the othering as well, right? Is when you start thinking like, I don't need that anymore. I feel good. You cannot base anything on your emotions in early recovery. You might feel good today. You might feel like I'm, I'm so far away from using, it's, you know, whatever you might, whatever you feel is not indicative of the true facts. And statistically speaking, the relapse rate for chemsex is higher than any other addiction, any other substance. And so statistically speaking, you're probably going to use again. So you have to continue to move forward as if you're new to this, right? It's a beginner's mind. It's that newbie mind. I also see this when guys get into a relationship early. You get into a relationship with a sober man and all of a sudden you're overconfident. I don't need, I don't need recovery anymore. I'm good. I don't have cravings. I don't, I'm not on the apps. I love him. He's the best thing that's ever happened. And then what happens down the road? Either you get bored with him or you break up or he ghosts you or something like that. The first thing your mind goes to is I'm going to go on a bender. It happens so often, which is, I think, why probably, you know, in the 12-step program, they say you can't date for a year, um, or they recommend you don't date for a year. Um, I, I'm not all about arbitrary rules because I think everybody's different, but I do think, um, and you're, I think something that you have on your list is, is gonna, is gonna go into that, the jumping into, but Overconfidence is just, again, thinking when you hear yourself thinking, I don't need that when it's suggested, I would go real deep inside and begin to think about why you're saying that. Is it true? Is it not true? Are you secretly not doing it, subconsciously not doing the thing to keep you in a space for using? Like, are you blocking that thing because, you know, subconsciously if you do that thing, it's going to keep you from using? Like, there's so many mind games in this that overconfidence can, can mask. Um, and so that's, that's what I've seen.

I would, I would agree with all that. And I was going to say, I was going to say one thing with the overconfidence. Um, I forget now. I forget what it was. It was something you said in the beginning.

Yeah.

Something you said in the very beginning. I was going to add on to it, but it slipped my mind. If it comes back, I'll type what it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So I think that's probably enough from that one.

Oh, I know. I remember now. Um, I just feel like when, so I feel like when you have overconfidence, you know, especially in the beginning, especially if like you just had a use, Or you're just coming into recovery, like those 2 areas. I feel like you just got knocked down. So you're feeling very confident because you don't want to use at that point.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, you got your hit, you got what you wanted. So of course you don't want to use. But it's like, so I feel like at that point, and like I said, it's for people who may have had a lapse or people who are just coming into recovery. I think that is where you need to be most conscious of the overconfidence. That's what I wanted to say.

Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. No recovery team is my next one.

Uh, mine would be not developing a, uh, social network, support network.

Yeah. You have not developing a social network.

Um, yeah.

Okay. Um, no recovery team, not developing a social, new social network. Um, so again, Due to shame, stigma, a lot of these, a lot of guys out there are afraid to share with their friends. I can't tell you the amount of DMs I get from men who they have, they, they live this Instagram life and they have all these Instagram friends and they go traveling together and they do all this stuff together. The friends have no idea that the guy's struggling with this. I don't know how they balance this. Like some of these, some of you are so good at, at this. You're, you're really good meth addicts. You really are. Um, I, my guess is you're successful in, in every other way. And that's another thing. Guys, affluent gay men, high-functioning gay men will come to me and are like, why am I successful in every part of my life but this? And I say, you're successful at this too. You're a successful meth addict.

Yeah.

You're, you're doing it really well. You know, you have it down to a science. Um, and so, but not sharing with somebody. Um, I think of, I think of a client, um, one of the clients in, uh, international. The first thing I said to him was he's been, he'd been using for 10 years. He had all these straight friends, all these, all this friend group. They were close. They did all this stuff. Nobody knew. And I told him, the first thing you have to do, the first thing I'd want you to do is tell somebody. Nobody on earth besides the guys he used with knew he used but me at that point. And it took some courage. It took a little time, but he shared with one straight, straight buddy. Just happened to be straight. Could be gay, but Or a straight girlfriend is one of the best ways to get sober, I think, or get meth-free. Um, but anyway, he shared with one person and he saw the reaction and it was so healthy. It was so unconditional. It was just, it was so loving and supportive that it, it helped, it helped him have the strength to do it more and more. And suddenly this man went. From using chronically to stopping. He's completely stopped now for over 4 months. It really, really just, it turned a corner for him, just getting it out there and making it known. And it just, there's something about telling someone that, and tell, listen, A lot of these straight people, the straight friends, they have no fucking clue what you mean when you say you use meth, right? They don't know that it means you're being hypersexual, that you're disappearing. It doesn't— that you're going into these dark places, that you're on Zoom. Like, they don't know all that. So I would say do it gradually if you're that, that scared. Just mention that you have a substance issue, maybe. You know, start with something that feels more safe, but tell somebody, have support. This particular substance, whether it's methadone, monkey dust, or crystal meth, chemsex, it requires you to have an accountability partner, somebody to lean on, to go to, to check in on you, to support you. you, whatever that may be. If it's just your coach or your sponsor, whatever, if it's just that person for a while, that's fine. But tell somebody close to you, a family member, a friend. I know it's scary, but there's something, there's this weight that lifts off of you that it's, this weight is also causing your nervous system to be dysregulated. It's causing, it's feeding Your use as well. The more open you are with it, transparent, the less you're gonna wanna do it and the less opportunities you will have to do it. 'Cause these people are going to be watching and noting, oh, wait a minute, he's not texting me back on a Friday, then I know what's happening. When before they would just say, oh, that's just him, he must be busy. But now that these people know what's going on and you've educated them on chemsex, They're going to be more likely to hold you accountable and you're going to think twice before you use and not respond. So I agree with you and I'm sure you have a different take on this too. So why don't you go ahead? What was your not—

So with me, um, I agree with everything you said, but in addition to that, for me, the developing a new social network. So if you already have a social network, you know, for me at least, and other people I see in recovery, Most of the time when we get deep into a meth addiction, at least, uh, we lose our social support network. And when I say that, our, our, our social network of our friends, our family, you know, not so much for me, my family, but mainly my friends. You know, it wasn't that they went away. I went away. I stopped calling 'em. I stopped texting 'em. I got distant from them.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I was gone for years, you know, and by the time I came back, they all had new lives. So it's sort of just like, well, I'm not gonna call, but yo, you wanna hang out now? It's like it was just done. So for me, I had to build a whole new social network. And that means just going out, making new friends, being careful who my new friends are. You know, are they, are they in recovery? Do they— they don't necessarily have to be. But, you know, for me, it was good that they were because I didn't need any temptations at that time. And, you know, it was just easier to build a new social network with people who are in recovery. Although I do enjoy my friends who aren't because it is nice to not have to talk about it all the time.

Right. Right.

That can be overwhelming. So I guess just to add on to the support network with you, it's just the new social network, just to make sure that if you don't have friends or you don't have that good social network that you had before you started using, you need to recreate it because one of the main things for, you know, at least for my meth use was the connection and what I thought was my social activities. And when you lose all that, that will drive me right back in 2 seconds. If I, if I'm not making connections or, or, or, you know, having, um, a social network, I'm going to go right back if I get alone.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've heard it a billion times. The opposite of addiction is connection. Right. Um, and you know, I want to touch on something about that too, is that I often hear from men, well, if I don't have Grindr, I'm not going to meet new people. I'm gonna call bullshit on that. Sorry. I'm just gonna call bullshit on that. Grindr is not the only way to meet people or to meet other gay men. It just, it just isn't. And that those, those grid, the, the grid you see on there is not a representation of every gay man in your town or city or area. We think it is. We think every man is on that Grindr grid. And I can tell you it is not true. I've had guys, I had a client who just met new friends by joining a dog walking club with his dog. They're not all gay. They're not all in sobriety, but it's a connection that he really loves. And it's people that, you know, that love him and his dog. I mean, use some creativity here. You get out and, and find out where you want to connect with people and what do you want to connect on? You know, we have, we had this podcast on loneliness. We've had so many podcasts about this is that, and I've shared here, my recovery network was not people in recovery. It was just, it was a bunch of hippie women. There was a few men where, you know, we just, we focused on healing and growth and we just talked about life and each other and we went in the trees and we did all kinds of stuff. We did all kinds of stuff, but It, I didn't have to constantly say, oh, you know, constantly talk about meth and my addiction and not using. And what do I do to, you know, I didn't have to constantly talk about that. It, to me, it was such an escape, but it was also something that moved me forward. And it was deep, deep connections with other people. And so you can do this and you can meet other gay men. There's, there's so many places that they are. that aren't Grindr. I mean, I've noticed here where I am, the Chamber of Commerce, which is all businessmen, you know, these are all queer business people. There are so many gay men I've met there. I've never seen them on Grindr. And they aren't on Grindr. They're too busy to be on Grindr, to be quite honest. They meet people in person and they build— if they want fuck buddies, they meet you in person first. So I just, I just want you to Open your mind a little and think, what are the possibilities? How can I meet people outside of Grindr? And if you're— I know you're an introvert and you have all this, whatever, you're neurospicy. You know, I've heard it all, but all of it is just resistance because it's just too easy to scroll on an app. But in early chemsex recovery, Grindr is not a good idea. I don't care who you are or where you are. It is not a good idea. Period. End of story. Sniffies either, or when I say Grindr, I mean all of them. You know, BBRT, Nasty Kink Pig, Adam4Adam is still being used apparently. I found out the other day. You know, I mean, there's whatever it is, you know what I'm talking about. And so I just wanted to piggyback on what you had to say there. So. Thank you for that. Anything else there?

Uh, no, I think we covered it.

Yeah. All right. My next one is disorganized. Um, I think that you are maybe not have something, um, that, that's exactly like it. Uh, disorganized goes back to this inconsistency, um, lack of follow-through and not planning is, I know Guys in the program who can't keep up with when we're supposed to meet each week, who can't keep up with the Zoom link. Sorry. You know, if you, if you are that disorganized, how you do one thing is how you do everything. If you are that disorganized, you are letting life happen to you. And if you are letting life happen to you, you're setting yourself up for a relapse. Get it together. Whatever it takes, get yourself organized. There's a whole— there's 2 modules I have in the program on habits based on the book Atomic Habits. I'm telling you, it is not that difficult to create new habits and get yourself a little organized. It just is not that hard. And I know that you, you're gonna— I know I could hear it right now. Yeah, but I have ADHD. Or I have bipolar or whatever it is. I get that, but there are ways to get yourself— they're, they're easy, simple, and they build on what you're doing already to get yourself a little organized. Being organized is one of the best things you can do to get through this, to get over this is, again, when you look at a project yourself a week, put on your meth thinking cap. Fill in your gaps, make sure you're scheduled. That way you're not left at home being bored, staring at your phone with nothing to do. And it's your— and I'm telling you, when you're at your horniest and when you're at your most vulnerable, you're going to get a text from that guy, especially if you haven't changed your phone number, which we're going to get into next. Disorganized. Just look at your life. If you don't know how to use a calendar, if you're not planning your, if you're not keeping a schedule and planning it, that's a real good indication that you're not going to do well in your recovery. I think it directly correlates. And then we have the guys who say, I'm not, I, I, I'm sorry, I can't commit to, uh, I can't commit to the WhatsApp chat. Like, I'm not a texter, right? Those are, that's going to go into my next thing, accepting false stories. If you accept the story that I'm not a texter, then you're not going to be one, period. If you accept I'm disorganized, I'm not good at time management, then that's what you're going to get, period. But if you're open to possibilities and you, and you look for solutions, being organized is going to be a key cornerstone. of your chemsex recovery, in my opinion.

So I would agree with that. I'd say the disorganized goes kind of in my, you need a plan. So having detailed plans to me, that's the same thing. Organizing your life, organizing where your day's at, what you're doing. It doesn't necessarily have to be plans, just making sure that you know what you're doing in the next step and that you follow through with it.

Yes. Yes. Okay. My next one is accepting false stories. I don't see that, a similar one on your list. Um, but, um, you're trying to use willpower, I think. We, well, you can come, Richard.

Yeah, it could, it could intermix a little bit.

Well, not with that one, but with what we've said already, I think. But, um, accepting false stories is what I just alluded to, is coming in with these You're hanging on to this story of, I'm not good enough. I don't know the answers. I can't stop using. You know, I'm too much. Just whatever it is that you're saying to yourself, I am, is typically just a story that has no evidence, right? So there's, there's an exercise in the program where I say, I ask the question, Um, I would have everything in my life if I wasn't. So I would have everything I want in life if I wasn't. And it's usually followed with, if I wasn't so disorganized, or if I wasn't so, um, I don't know. What's some others? Like, if I wasn't whatever, whatever it is that you say you're not is typically a story. It's a false story. Because you write the stories of your life. You create the reality of your life. And whatever you're saying, I am in front of is what you're creating. So if you want to create the fact that you are not a texter, that you are not somebody who can manage their time, then that's your story. You have to really start looking at what you've adopted to be true. Because that, for the most part, is going to be driving your actions in recovery. And it all comes down to what version of I am not enough is there. Like, I will always be rejected, or I will always be betrayed, or I will never get this right. I can't do anything right. Whatever it is, these stories got you into chemsex in the first place. And then you accept them as truth. And that becomes the lens and the perspective through which you see the world and you see yourself. And you're kind of constantly do that. We think the external is the truth, is the, is the cause of our internal. But it's really what is on the internal is the cause of the external. So what you think is causing your reality and your, your situation, your environment. What your thoughts create reality. So if you keep thinking, I don't manage my time well, then that's what's going to be true. But we think you don't manage your time well, and so that's what you think about yourself. That is not the way it works. And the sooner you accept that, the better, the more free you're going to be, not just in recovery, but you're going to free up, you're going to liberate yourself in your whole life because you're going to stop living under false stories. These things are just, they're, they are impressions and stories and thoughts and beliefs that were given to you throughout your life by other people, and you've accepted them to be true. This is a deep, deep work of recovery that comes after. Get some time away from the substance, and then you can start really analyzing how you respond and how you think. throughout the day. Because whatever it is that you're thinking over and over becomes a belief. And then you're going to believe it. And that's what drives your recovery. That's what drives your life. So accepting false stories, that's, that's important, but it comes later. And that's when you start really changing. You change your identity from I am somebody who uses chemsex to I'm somebody who doesn't use chemsex. You have to flip that identity in those thoughts. I am not somebody who, even if you used 24 hours ago, in this moment, are you using? No. Then you are not a meth user. You are not a chemsex user. Start to embody what that feels like. And those thoughts are what creates the reality of this. This is really, this, it's really manifesting, but this is really the key. But you have to stop using first for a little while to, so you can start thinking clearly. But this is really the key to true transformation in my, in my humble opinion.

I would, I would, of course, again, I would agree with all that. And, you know, I feel like for me and my recovery and I, even for the guys in the program, them learning to change their language and change their language and, um, Use more positive things and not, you know, have false stories about themselves. And when they do catch themselves using false stories, to change them.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Change them. It's a process. Okay. I have number 10, allowing relapse to derail. Um, I guess that's not on yours and we'll get to the rest of them. So this one's pretty obvious. 2 is, this is the biggest one that we see, right? Is you, you use and you have been trained and brainwashed and taught that if you use, you have to start over. You guys, anybody who's listened to me will know the, the tirade that I go on about this. You don't start over. You don't lose time. Time in your life does not just disappear. It's not wiped away because you use the substance. You have built up knowledge, experience, and information, and you're going to keep relapsing until you respond to it in a better way. Or you're thrown into an inpatient rehab or jail or whatever, the hospital. You are going to keep using until you can use and respond to it in a way that says, what can I learn from this? And you see it as this is one step. This is not a stumbling block. This is a stepping stone. This is one step closer to me stopping. I'm going to extract all the learning and all the benefit from this experience, and I'm going to call it positive. I'm going to label it positive. I'm not going to label it fail. It's not a pass or fail. But your response to your use is going to mean the biggest difference In how you, how you, the momentum that you grow and how successful you are in recovery and how quickly you stop using is the response to it. That is really, I say all of these are key. They're all key. But that one is a big one because I see it. You use and then you're done. You're, you're in the depths of despair. You're spiraling for 2 or 3 weeks. Then you come back. You've learned nothing. You've learned nothing but that you're a piece of shit that can't get it right. That's what you learn. And then when you have to go for some, you know, walk of shame up to get a new tag or whatever, or you get labeled, I'm back to zero, I'm a zero now, all of that, none of that helps. Again, I'll tell you, if you went 3 months and you didn't use, you had a relapse and you've, that's been a month ago. That's 4 months total. In 4 months, I've used 1 time. That's how you phrase it. That's how you think of it. That's the perspective shift that will get you, that will help you progress here. And so that is key. I know it's hard and I want you, right after it, you're gonna feel all the emotions. Your brain can't help but to feel down. You're gonna feel bad. You're gonna feel guilty. You're gonna feel ugly. You're gonna feel all this stuff. Feel it and observe it, but don't become it and don't let it derail your recovery. You have to learn from it because you're, you're using to learn something. And if you don't learn that, you're going to keep using. That's how it works. Bobby.

Um, just gonna, what I would add onto that is, um, for your response to relapse, the one thing that I feel that you can control, um, Is your response to things. And that includes your response to relapse. And the way you respond to it is the way, you know, things are going to go for you. You know, when I was in my deep addictions, the way I responded to things was always erratic, always, you know, over the top. And just, I catastrophized everything. And, you know, to me, you know, now when like something bothers me, I don't have to flip out about it. You know, it can bother me. I can get mad, but I don't have to scream. I don't have to yell. I don't have to go on a tirade about it. You know, I can just, you know, simply accept it, think about it, pause, and respond. And so I think the same, like, that's how you do the relapse to derail. You're allowing relapse to derail. It's just the way you respond to it. So agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So your first one was trying to use willpower. You want to talk about that?

Yeah. So that really does tie in with a lot of what we said. So basically, you know, what I've learned is that You know, when we wake up in the morning, we have willpower, you know, and as the day goes on, that slowly declines. So by the end of the day, you're weaker and you don't have as much willpower. When I wake up in the morning, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to start. I'm like all motivated to start my day. But, you know, after a few computer glitches, uh, a few, a few other things, you know, by the time the end of the day is, I'm, I'm burning out. I'm running outta energy. So, you know, I've heard a couple speeches, um, a couple TED Talks on willpower where they said you just need willpower. And it just, it drives me crazy when, when I hear that, like, we're humans, you know, we're, we're, we burn out, we, we run out of energy. So this is where consistent daily action would come into play. You know, you need consistent daily action all day so you have your day's plan so you know what you're doing all day. So when your willpower gets weak, You already have something there in place to protect yourself.

That's right. Yes, thank you. Yeah, it's a finite, it's a finite amount of energy that you have. And what, what sets us up in chemsex for failure is that our biggest danger zone is at night. That's, that's when we all come out to play, right? Is, is, is at night. And so by the time you get to the nighttime, your willpower is gone. I mean, I know that some of you sleep in or whatever, or whatever, but the willpower at that point cannot be trusted or self-control. You know, there's a, a little drawing I did and I could draw, bring it up here, but I'm not going to, um, that, that shows like when you get to that point of decision, that decision point of either the dealer has texted you and said, hey, do you need any stuff? Or when you want to come fuck or whatever. Or you're saying you're sitting in front of a computer on Rentmen, or you're on Grindr, whatever, you're making the plan. When you're in that decision point, what's stopping you? It's not willpower. It's not self-control. So in the, you have to prevent those decision points from happening by the safeguards, having the blocks on the apps, having the blocks on the sites, having people checking in with you, making plans. All the safeguards and the guardrails have to be in place. It's like, It's like bowling when you have the bumper guards on the side, right? There's, there's, you have to have the guards in place so you don't go in the gutter. Um, but you cannot just say, I have the willpower for it. The willpower builds, the self-control builds in time after you, after you're able to get some time away from the substance and start to learn what life is going to be like after meth. And you start tying into that identity of, I'm somebody who doesn't, and then those decisions don't even happen because you're not putting yourself in those places. Okay. Not under— addressing underlying causes is your next one.

So for me, you know, when I think about that, I, I would say that would be probably one of my number ones if I had to list some in order. Now, I know I'm gonna say that when I get down further, I may change my mind, but for me, you know, the reason that I used is what was the reasoning? behind it because, you know, when I started to use meth, you know, it wasn't because I just felt like it. It did something for me. And what did it do for me that I wasn't able to get without it? And, you know, for me personally, you know, most of it was internalized homophobia, not having confidence, not being able to deal with rejection, having intimacy problems, and attachment wounds for other people. But for me, I look back at when I used and it was just, I think about how confident I was and how, you know, no, I didn't care if you rejected me because I would just, I would get you anyway, or I figure it out. And, you know, it was just like, and it amazes me how when I look back and I said, not just like sexually, but like anything I wanted in life when I was on meth, I got it. I got it. I had such confidence and the confidence was there. It always has been there. The meth just helped bring it out. So also with me, with like, you You know, I, I've suffered from a lot of internalized homophobia from my upbringing. And, you know, when I was using, I'd be floating around the hallways of my apartment building. I didn't care in whatever I wanted to wear. You know, I didn't care.

I would—

stuff I would normally not wear now. Even now I probably wouldn't, but, but it's just like, I didn't care. I was like, I wanted everybody to know I was gay. I was skipping all around the place. I didn't care.

Hmm.

But, you know, without the meth, I, I didn't wanna do that. I felt uncomfortable doing that. I didn't want people— I was afraid people were looking at me or judging me or talking to me. So for me, I, I go, I use my use as a learning experience of what was it, everything that I got, why was I using? And obviously if I was able to do it with meth, I'm able to do it without meth because it's all the drug's doing is just helping you get those things that you can't find without it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah.

Yeah.

Agreed. Underlying causes. That's, you know, that's the, that's the real work. I've said it a billion times. Quitting meth is the easy part. Quitting chemsex is the easy part. Then you have to address all these underlying causes, all this trauma, all these beliefs, all these stories you keep, like digging in and unpacking and unpeeling all of that. It's hard. It's hard. It's uncomfortable. It takes some time. A lot of times it takes a trauma therapist. You know, um, but that's the, that's the deeper work. Okay. You have not blocking apps. I'm going to couple that with not changing. Yeah. Not changing number or blocking user buds. You want to talk about that one?

Yeah. So, uh, especially in early recovery, you know, we need to learn to lock ourselves down even like, so I feel one of the biggest fails of rehabs is you go into a rehab, they put all these protective barriers and over you. And all they, they, they teach you what you should do when you leave. You know, they just throw you out there. There's no, like, there's no— they just send you back home. Now, there are other ways you can obviously leave a rehab, going into recovery homes, and there are slower reasons, but most people go back home. And when you go back home, you got to set up these protections that were there with you in rehab, especially with meth addiction, addictions, especially with gay men. The social apps, the dating apps, the Grindr, the Scrub, the Adam4Adam. You You know, all the, all of them, BBRT, all that. It's just you're leaving an opening by not blocking those apps. You're leaving an opening by going on because that is where that this drug likes to hide and, and find its way into other people's homes in a very easy way. You know, this isn't like any other drug. Like, I don't see, um, people who, you know, may have more of an opioid addiction going on a dating app to find opioids.

Right.

It's just, they don't do that. They go, they go to They go somewhere else, you know, they call people. Yeah. Not going on dating apps to find their drugs. Like, this is a totally different world. So you can't compare yourself to other people in recovery. Like, for example, like people I know from AA, they can go on Grindr. Who cares? Because they're not going off meth. But meth users and chemsex users, that's one of the most dangerous places for us is on block— is, is the apps. So I feel like we need to block them. And that goes, and that just leads into the same with changing your number or blocking your user buds. Blocking people, not deleting their number. Um, you know, that's, that, that can work for some people, but you know, mostly you're probably gonna have to change your phone number and make sure that no one has that contact cuz you're taking away that opening for someone to reach you. They always will call you or text you at that one weakest moment that you're having. It feels like the universe likes to test us that way.

Mm-hmm.

And so I just feel like it's very important that you block the numbers and, And, or change your number if you don't feel like the blocking is going to suffice it enough.

Mm-hmm. That's right.

So yeah, those, those two kind of intertwine.

Yep. Yep, exactly. And this, this ties into those others, othering. These, a lot of these guys come in and say, I don't need to block Grindr. I, I don't have, I don't have it on my phone. Okay, bitch. We know how long it takes to have Grindr on your phone. 30 seconds, right? And you can be using in 30 minutes. Um, and, but yeah, uh, call it the witness protection program. You have to go into a witness protection program and change your identity. And you, it's, you know, just like 12 steps again, 12 steps, people, places, and things, right? You have to change people, places, and things. And you, if you, this, this phone number, you, you take it as part of your identity. It isn't. And the people who are important enough to you will get ahold of you. And you don't need a phone number. Like, I hear all the excuses, like, well, it's tied to my job, or it's everybody knows it, or blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, well, how— what is it worth to you to stop using? Because you have to close down those access to these people. Um, there was something else I was going to say about that too, and now I can't remember. But, um, but yeah, the Witness Protection Program, changing your phone number, all of that, it's not 100% required, but most of the time. Oh, I know what I was going to say is just like you're saying is what we're doing in this program is we're creating a virtual rehab to get. So when you leave, if what the perfect scenario would be, you leave inpatient rehab, you come to this program, and then you go to a therapist. Like it's in between because what we are creating here is virtual rehab. So when you go to rehab, what's the first thing they do? They They take your phone away. So in this program, we're going to take your phone away, quote unquote, by locking it down, putting it in a block, in a lockbox. You know, you have to think about, okay, what tri— what, what made me successful in rehab? And then carry that over to how can I recreate that in my life now? In rehab, I, everybody knew where I was at all times. In rehab, I did recovery work every single day. rehab, you know, it was whatever it was, bring it over and replicate that. That keeps you in its protective space until you get enough confidence and you are in the real world without using long enough that you're used to what that is like. Okay. Your next one is jumping into avoiding sex.

Okay. So this for me is, you know, everybody needs to take this individualized. So like sort of how you were saying earlier that, you know, Avoiding sex for the first year. Some people need to do that. That, first of all, that is not a 12-step, um, thing. That is just something that someone made up into a 12-step thing. That, that is just those things that where, you know, someone, some long-timers just decide to make it up along the way. That is really not technically, we stay out of sexual activity and we don't get involved. You're, you're the judgment of yourself.

So, but, oh, okay.

Gotcha. Yeah. So that is an, uh, that is one of those many unwritten sayings that have come up over the years. But for me, you know, it depends on your own personal relationship with sex. So some people I feel that are able to go and start recovery and have sex right away, and it's like no big deal for them. But with chemsex, you know, the sex is tied to the drug. And like, for most of us, I don't want to speak for everybody, but for most gay men who are using meth or methadone or monkey dust or GHB, it's, it's Turns into sex. So when you start having sex, your mind automatically goes to the drug, and it's a very triggering aspect that you may— and it's very intense, and it may not be what you're expecting. So I feel that you need to personally think about what your experience was, and if you're comfortable or not with it, and to be careful whether you're jumping into it as— because you're trying to avoid things, or you're trying to— If it's for the wrong reasons, if it's for the messy reasons, or if you need a break from it, or some people are okay with it. So I think it's just something you need to think about and you need to think long about before you start doing it. And if you need to avoid it, avoid it for its time period. If it needs to be 3 months, great. If it needs to be 2 years, great. Um, so that's sort of how it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sexual reintegration is The biggest, I mean, I say that's, I said that's the other thing was the real work, but this is another real work is reintegrating back into sex. A lot of us who have been in chemsex are traumatized. We're traumatized. Our arousal template's been scattered. We have to relearn. It's almost like a second puberty, right? And there's plenty of podcasts that we've done on this. I don't have to go into it. Lots of podcasts we have on sexual reintegration. look for them. And you can see, you can tell by the therapists I've had on, you can hear real experiences. It takes time. It takes patience and consistency. And it takes you having a positive, open mindset that it's possible. There's a lot of guys will come in and say, I'll never enjoy sex again, or I'll never have sex like I had on Tina. Yes, you may never have sex like you had on chemsex, but you can have better sex. It can be better all the way around if you are open to that and if you want to put in the work. You have damaged yourself in some way sexually, for the most part, in chemsex. Now you have to fix it. You have to repair. But that process of repair sets you up for having such a more liberated sexually freeing, satisfying sex life. You have to see it that way. All right. Your last one, not developing hobbies to replace dopamine.

So for, for me, it's just like, we need something to, to, so when we, for at least for me, again, when I was using, you know, it was the dopamine highs were amazing. And, you know, we, I needed, I needed to replace that because that's what my body was used to. So you need to get yourself involved in other hobbies and learn to do things that can get you these dopamine levels. So like, for instance, like if you'd like to go skiing, go skiing. If you'd like to, like you mentioned earlier, the client who likes to join the dog walking club, you need to find other activities that you can put in place of your meth activities. And for me, my meth activities were 24/7. So I have to figure out things to do, you know, when I'm not working, I gotta figure out other activities to do that are That I'm going to enjoy, that I'm going to like. And I think we've used this comparison a lot, the Stonewall sports.

Mm-hmm.

You know, doesn't mean you have to go join a kickball team or a baseball team or a softball team if you don't like that. Like, don't do it. You need to join things you like. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a gay thing. So I just think it's very important that we replace these things with hobbies that we like. And that way we start getting the dopamine hits. And as we go along in our recovery and we get further away from the drug, these dopamine hits will start feeling a little better. And they won't feel as low as they did when you first came into recovery.

Yeah. Yes, I agree. Wow. That was pretty comprehensive, I think. Do you think we missed anything?

I think we covered a lot.

That was a bunch. That was a ton of things. So hopefully you listeners can benefit from this. Did we, if we missed anything that you'd like to add, tell us in the comments of YouTube or comments of Spotify or send us a DM. If there's something you don't agree with, tell us that too, please. I would love to hear. I really hope that this helps you. And just, I would just take this information and just start doing an audit, an audit of your recovery, an audit of your life, an audit of your thinking, an audit of how you're showing up in the world and measure it up to these things. And there's always room for improvement, but maybe somewhere in here is a little nugget that's the key. Like there's a lot of times guys come to us and there's just one little, pardon the pun, tweak, right? There's one little tweak that has to be made that really sets them off into a different route. It's pivotal in their recovery. And oftentimes it's just a little perspective shift. Um, that's all it takes. So, um, I hope this helps you and thank you, Bobby, for your time today. This, uh, almost hour and a half.

Thank you.

We could probably keep going too.

Yep.

Because I, I've, I've thought of other things as we're talking. I'm like, ah, I need to stop it. I need to shut up. Uh, maybe we could have a part 2. Um, but thank you for today and I hope you guys enjoyed this and we'll see you next week. Bye.