EP 2:6 Love AfterMeth with Sober Dave

Hey y'all, so honored to have you listen and engage with the Aftermath Podcast. I am very grateful that you are here and taking time out of your day to listen and support our mission to eradicate the epidemic of crystal meth use among the queer male population. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for joining today, and I'm really excited to have back my very hot and unavailable buddy Dave Becker to the show. If you remember, Dave joined us in season 1, episode 8, where we heard his story with meth use. And we took a deep dive into the roots of meth use. If you haven't listened to that episode, I suggest you do that ASAP, either before or after this one. But today, Dave joins us again, and he's going to share his recovery story this time, and more specifically, how he reintegrated into sober sex and sober relationships. Dave has worked very hard to untangle meth from sex and has subsequently found love again. Love after meth. He and his boyfriend just moved in together and are sickeningly sweet. If that's a word. Sickeningly sweet. Sickeningly. Whatever. You get it. I want you to listen to his story and use it to get those doubts and those fears and those negative thoughts. About never recovering sexually from meth use out of your head and out of your mouth. I want you to cease and desist saying, oh, I miss Tina sex, and I'll never have Tina sex again. You are stuck in the past, my friend. Just like a toxic ex who was a wild fuck in bed, you just move on because he wasn't good for you. And the sex wasn't worth it, right? Same goes with meth. All right, enjoy this episode. The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I am pleased to have my old friend Dave Becker here to talk about love and sex after meth. Um, I guess, Dave, you are— well, no, I was going to say you're the first repeat offender on the podcast, but you're not. Um, we had— yeah, we have Dr. Fawcett on here to talk about harm reduction.

Nice.

He was on season 1. Um, yeah, so we're gonna have— I'm gonna have some people come back to talk about certain subjects. Because when we had our recording, you and I too, when we had our recording, we had this like dovetail discussion about love and sex and dating. Um, yeah, that, you know, after we stopped recording, we said we need to do a whole podcast on that.

Yeah, I remember.

Um, yeah, and, and just like with everything else, it's, um I want to do subjects that, that also help me.

Which is fair, which is fair, you know. Which is fair.

But, but other than that, we get, you know, I get questions almost every day about how do I even proceed? You know, I've stopped using crystal meth, but how do I go forward? So anyway, before I get into it here, do you— would you like to introduce yourself to us?

Sure, why not? Um, my name is Dave Becker. I live in Boston, Massachusetts. I've been sober for about 4 and a half years now. Um, I coach gymnastics for a living, and I also have a podcast called the Sober Gay Sunday Podcast. I, um, also have a group here in Boston called Sober Gay Sunday, which is an organization that brings members of the LGBTQIA+ Community together that are in recovery and are sober, and we do events around here in Boston. So yeah, I think that's kind of that's me.

Yay! That's you.

I'm here.

You have great lighting today too, by the way.

It's all natural. It's just sitting by. I'm sitting by a window and looking into my neighbor's window through my. I'm like, but I put but I put on a nice sweater, so it's fine. You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is nice.

We kind of match. A little bit, yes. Green action for hopefully an early spring, right?

Yes, I hope so. I'm ready for it. I am ready for it. Um, well, before we get started, so in case you fast forward me in the beginning, I'm going to get you now, is that please rate and review the podcast. I would love a 5-star review, and you guys have been really doing that, and I appreciate that. So the next step, if you've already rated the podcast, could you share it on your story when the new podcast comes out. I'd like to really see a lot of us sharing the podcast on your story so that all of your followers see, see the podcast, so we can get into the hands and ears and eyes of more people. So please do that for me. I would greatly appreciate that. Also, I want to say there's an option to send a text, um, on the show notes of the podcast, and when you do send the text, it goes into fan mail. That goes on the website, and I love that. However, when you ask me questions through that, I cannot see your number to answer you back. So if you're listening to this and you've sent me questions, like something about the, the study guide, um, please just contact me directly. I mean, I'm on every modality of social media there is. I'm everywhere. Um, and you can email me, call me, whatever it is you do. DM me, um, if you have questions. I do appreciate the fan mail, but specifically if you need a response, I cannot see your number. It won't let me, um, speak. And then other than that, also don't forget there is a study guide that comes out with each episode. The link to that will be in the show notes as well. And if you want to join in the conversation, you can comment on Spotify or you can comment on YouTube. We are there as well.

Sweet.

Yay. All right, so getting started. So Last season we had, uh, quite a few psychosexual therapists, sex therapists, and just regular therapists, coaches, intimacy coaches talking about love, intimacy, and sex after meth. But as with anything else, having someone who's actually experienced it, that carries a lot more weight for us as listeners. And, um, I've been watching your Story evolved since we met last last year. You weren't you weren't living together or anything with I think you had your boyfriend, but all the cute pictures that you post and oh yeah and you trigger yeah go ahead we're obnoxious it's all right you can say it I love it it's okay I love it and you sent me a holiday card that was triggering to me at the time listen.

Listen, I try to do something nice for Summer on the holidays, and here it is just causing a spiral.

Let's do it right in the trash.

Oh no, no, I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking.

No, it, um, they've had a holiday card of, I guess it was you, you and your boyfriend from behind at the, what is it, Pride Parade?

It was in, um, yeah, it was a picture of us holding hands walking down the street in P-Town actually over the summer.

Oh, P-Town. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, and it was like a artistic rendering of that.

Yeah, we found this really cool artist online who did a picture of us from, um, when we did Buzz and Woody from Toy Story for Carnival. So he did a really good drawing of that. And then my boyfriend got me a drawing of us with the picture of us walking. So it was really cute. And I was like, this is gonna be a great little holiday card. So let's trigger all my friends. Let's do it.

All the single ones. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's good. Um, I was having a moment that day. But so let's talk about this. If you— I would say again, the biggest question I get is, will I ever be able to enjoy sex again?

Mm-hmm.

Um, after meth. And, um, so my, my first question to you is What was your process in— after you left meth, what was your process in getting back into sex? What were the challenges there? And was it quote unquote boring the first few times you tried it, as everyone is so afraid of?

So I— my situation is a little bit different than I think a lot of people, especially getting sober and clean right now, is, um, I got sober during the pandemic. So it was 2020, it was July, um, numbers of COVID were really low. But at the same time, it was one of those things where you're like, you just didn't know Mm-hmm. What was going on. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I broke up because I had a big relapse in that summer. Uh, my boyfriend at the time and I split, and that was like the big reason that I decided to really just take my sobriety seriously for the first time in about a decade. So, um, coming out of a relationship and like really being heartbroken and devastated that that relationship was over was a good way for me to just sit with myself and my sober coaches and my therapist and do the work of sobriety. I realized that like I had just been so blasé about my sobriety that like this big hit across the head was what I needed. So for the first little bit of it, sex wasn't even really on my mind because not only was like COVID kind of flying around, but then also the boyfriend had and I had broken up. So, um, I took it upon myself to make sure that I really looked into my triggers and what was going to cause me to— what caused me to use in the first place. I'm a big advocate of like really digging deep into the past and your trauma and all that stuff and to see what— where it starts.

Yeah.

Um, and definitely for me, like sex is, as with anyone using crystal meth, sex is a huge, huge part of that drug. It's like, it's It's, it just is what it is. And so in a normally like in a stressful situation, I would turn to sex and Crystal would always kind of be there. But I think one of the things that started to get me back into having sex was I realized that I needed and wanted to have sex with people that I really, really connected with. And one of the things that crystal meth did for me was bring out this uninhibited, super sexual, super kinky, super, just sexually confident person.

Mm-hmm.

And for that person to come back out and be, to become part of my life again, I needed to be with people that I trusted and I was comfortable with. That was kind of the hangup of the, you know, app hookup, come on over, bing bang boom, see you later. That part of my life was kind of ending. And then this new part of my life of real connection and real intimacy was kind of being born, so to speak. So when I first started having sex again, it was with people I knew and people I trusted and people I was friends with and people that I knew like the sexual chemistry was really good with. And in inviting those people into my bed, I was able to allow myself to kind of blossom and reopen and, you know, no pun intended, but pun intended, open up. So I had a few different people that I just really kind of got back into the game with. And it really was game-changing because they were people I loved, like really loved. And, and people who understood my struggle and understood what was going on with the drugs and the alcohol and all that stuff. So, um, that was, that, that's what worked for me was getting comfortable with myself through other people who were, who cared for me. Yeah.

So just to recap for the listeners. Sitting with yourself and sitting with the trauma, sitting with the pain. So this is important for you to hear, is that so many of you expect that you stop and then within 2 or 3 months you can just get right back on the bike, per se.

Yep, exactly. Like, right, it's— that's one thing that when I first started getting sober, I didn't want to get to the point where I needed to like phone a sponsor because I was at the edge of using, right? Just wasn't— I didn't— I was like, that stresses me out. Like, I do not have— I just don't have the— that I want to try to make my life less stressful, so that I don't lean on these, on these substances. I don't lean on meth to, to deal with my stress and anxiety. So I want to, I want to see the possibility of a relapse coming A thousand miles away.

Yes.

So I can then be like, okay, let's process. Let's let's figure out what's these feelings are coming before I'm like white knuckling it to a meeting. And so that's really where I'm like with my therapist when I finally got a therapist after about a month after my relapse. I was like, we're like we're let's go in. Like I don't want to sit here and be like, yeah, what do you do from now? No, like we're going. We're going in, like, where did the pain, where did your pain begin? And we're going all the way back to the very, very beginning. And one of the things that my therapist did was literally start from your earliest memory that you can possibly think and just write your entire life out. I have a very good memory. So this took several, several meetings. I was like, you might want to get another book. Okay. Just so we just, and then we went through everything and then you just kind of hit what traumatic experiences in your life have affected you into your adulthood. And you start to see, you start to build a map of what your trauma is and what, how, how you can alleviate those things. So that was very helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. And it's like a roadmap. It's like a const— your const— it's a constellation that shows you how you got to where You didn't just get to crystal meth, right? Right. Um, yeah, so thank you for that. Okay, and then the other part that you talk about here is sex with connected men in a connected space, in a trustworthy, um, a trustworthy and open, like, safe space.

Very that, yes.

Right, so The other thing, listeners, is if you go back to Grindr to try to fix what happened on Grindr, you're going to get the same thing Grindr gave you.

Exactly right.

Yeah. So, but let's say, let's say I'm listening and I don't have— like, all my social network is gone now because it was all rooted in, in crystal meth. Like, what would be you— what would be a suggestion for you in terms of how do I find this? How do I find this space of men that I can trust? Um, and here's what I— here's the key here too, is not somebody you're interested in dating. It's a, it's a friend with benefit type thing where you both know what the deal is.

Yeah.

Like, you come in saying, I want to heal my sexual template, I want to heal from meth, I need somebody to quote unquote practice with. In a safe space. Is that right?

Yeah, I think that's— and I think that's— now that you've said it in such, like, plain terms, I'm like, that's kind of hard. That's kind of hard. But what I think a suggestion would be to find friends in other places. I mean, you said, you know, you can't go back to Grindr, you can't go back to the places where you would normally meet people and to, you know, engage in sexuals. But I think Finding friendships and finding a community that you can start to kind of relearn how to be social and relearn how to make like be yourself. I'll just use again use I'll use myself as an example. I joined the gay kickball league here in Boston as soon as I got off of crystal meth. As soon as I came down from that, that that bender that you know took me took my relationship out. I went and I was like, I have to find friends. I have to be able to just be around people that are gay and are queer and just be in a space where I can just be safe and not be like constantly thinking about using crystal meth. And so from there, at least, I mean, I also grow— I live in, I live in the city. I live in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm not out in the suburbs. I'm not in an, you know, I'm, I'm a very, very lucky and very fortunate in that, that I'm close enough to a major metropolitan area. And so. For me, it was easy to find people that I could connect with. But as far as like the people that I was sleeping with, it's— I have just— I was calling on people that I had had really good experiences with and had trusted from my past.

Okay.

And so as far as like finding new people, I mean, again, I think it's just Or finding someone that's really comfortable with, um, you know, helping you kind of get your training wheels back on. It's, I think it's about first and foremost finding community and friendship.

Yeah.

Because that's really going to be the basis of your, of your self-esteem and rebuilding yourself is finding just people that you connect with in a friendly way. And then from there, gay men being gay men, you will finally, you'll find through those connections and through that camp, that community, you'll find people that are, um, I think willing to work with you as it were.

Sure. That's right. Practice. Practice with you. Um, yeah. So again, if you're wanting to pursue this, it takes time.

And patience. And it's not gonna be, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to, cuz what you were, just saying before is like, a lot of gay men think that they can just drop the drugs and jump right on the train full speed. But we, we pick up drugs and alcohol because we suffer from mental health issues. And if you put the drugs and alcohol down, the mental health issues are still there. So you have to build your own self, you have to build your own Just, you have to deal with that mental illness. You have to deal with those issues. Like, otherwise, sex and, and it's just going to be another addiction, another bandaid, another thing you're going to fall into that's not healthy for your recovery at all. Right.

Yeah. And I've said it a bunch of times. I'm sure I've said it on the podcast. But, you know, quitting meth sometimes is the easy part. Because then you have to go, like you're saying, you have to dig deep and you're so raw and you have nothing to hide it for. You have nothing to hide with and you have to face all that shit. Yeah, all of it without any protection. And you have to dive into it deep. And that's, that's the, that's the work.

Exactly. And then once you really find your footing and you find your, your, your, your, the path of sobriety that works for you, then you can really start to kind of like enjoy the fruits of your labors and then you can really Because then again, like I said, it just felt you just slipped down the down the hill again. It's just you fall into another type of addiction, and even just depending on how much you used or how much you you know you drank, it's it's you have to like relearn to be a person again. Like yeah, you're back at fifteen. Like when I first got sober, I'm like you know I'm standing in a social situation or I'm standing at you know in a in a bar or whatever for, you know, someone's birthday or whatever. And you're like, oh my God, like I used to just do a, take a drink to make this, make myself the life of the party.

Mm-hmm.

And meth is for that, for a lot of people, for sex is like, mm-hmm, I'm, I'm sitting in this space that normally I would just do the drug and make it easy.

Mm-hmm.

But without it, you feel like that 15-year-old kid again who's has a crush on a boy in school or whatever. Like it's, it's, you become, you like revert back to your original, original young naive self because you've just been smacking your brain with drugs for so long that you don't know how to exist without it. And for me, that was one of the things I think socially was really hard, was kind of like just navigating a new, a brand new world that you've, you haven't been to for a long time.

Yeah.

And sex is the same way. It's like, I think a lot of what we are interested in, in sex when it comes to crystal and how you use and how you've And how you fuck and how you like to play. A lot of that is inside of you and it's, it's being released and finding ways to let it out is gonna take a lot of work and a lot of trial and error. Like it's not gonna be perfect the first time. So just be patient. You have to be patient with yourself with the whole process. Mm-hmm.

Yep. That is right. And I hear a lot of guys say, well, I tried sober sex and it was so boring and so nerve-wracking, and I was so nervous and I was anxious and it didn't go well. You know, you have to keep trying.

Yeah, exactly. And you got to find a partner that's really going to work with you.

Yes.

Like, it's not— it's, it's someone— it takes a certain person that is incredibly patient and caring. And, and I've— and You know, I've been that person with people before, and sometimes you just gotta stop everything and just be like, we can just sit and chill and not continue. Like, it is okay.

Yeah.

And you're, and you're also diving into like the incredibly intense, you know, just gay man identity problem. I have to be this, I have to be Porn star ready, hot this, this, that, that, that, that. It's like that's that's belong that that type of of insecurity and that type of experience belongs to everybody in the gay community, let alone someone who's coming off of using crystal meth. So you're not alone in the fact that everyone is is dealing with similar insecurities and similar. expectations that they've put on them, we've put on ourselves. And so it's, it's again, it's about finding a partner that's going to be patient, realistic. And that is, that is, it's, it can be tough to find.

Yeah. Yeah. So yes. Yeah. And I'll add, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast at this point. I have no idea.

But let's assume yes. Yeah.

We'll just assume, as I said before, Per my last email. Right, exactly. Um, you know, when I, I first was— when I first quit, uh, crystal meth, I was so— I lacked so much trust in myself, and I was such a flight risk that I had a guy move in with me. A friend moved in with me. He needed a place to live anyway. Um, just so I would have someone to fuck, you know. I mean, it was just— we, you know, I It was a thing, a practice thing. We both knew it wasn't anything. It wasn't a strings attached thing. But it kept me off Grindr. It kept me from going out. It kept me— and I was practicing again of what do I like and what do I not like? Because I did a lot of things in— when I was high on meth that seemed so hot at the time, but now it doesn't. So do I like that again? I don't know. So let me try it with you.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, that kind of thing. And so that was about 3 or 4 months. And then he moved out. But, um, sometimes you just do what you got to do.

But really, like, and, and I think I find sometimes too, just if you're like, if you're really feeling a certain kind of way and you're really, you know, just jerk off. Like, yeah, you know, like seriously, like sometimes it's like you're not, and it's okay not to be ready. It's okay not to be ready to be with somebody. And it's okay to like, you know, to really be honest with yourself about your own timeline. There is no, so there, there is no timeline. There is no, Perfect answer. There is no you know after this amount of time you should. I know AA and NA and CMA kind of tend to push towards sobriety for a year.

Yeah.

Before sex and relationships, and over the you know over the years I've been sober, I kind of go back and forth between my feelings on that. But I mean, there are certain people who who come out and can be ready, and then there's some people I'm like you might want to mate. wait more than a year.

Exactly.

Like, yeah, it's, it's maybe a couple years, honey. Just—

Right. Yeah, exactly.

So it's all— everyone's story is different. And, and I mean, I, I know personally here in the city, like, there's, um, there's a good group of sober gay guys that all meet on Tuesdays at 7 o'clock in the South End, and it's All walks of life, all different drugs, all different lengths of sobriety, and all these guys really like really lean on each other. And so that's another thing that I think I'm lucky for in this city is is is just being able to be close to things like that. And if you have meetings like that or just in your area, just finding people that you can share horror stories with, like get down because like I've said this, I think I've said this on your on your podcast before, and if I haven't, it's. It's been a mine, but I think the— and this is one of the things that I said actually on my first Sober Gay Sunday outing— is the gay sober recovery experience is so unique. You can go to a regular meeting with, you know, all the straight people in the world, and, you know, you can have a straight sponsor, you can have a straight, you know, all your sober friends, but There's something about just the collective experience of being a member of the LGBTQIA+ community and getting sober. We have such similarities in our upbringings. We have such similarities in, 'cause I think every gay person in the world has grown up with trauma because you're different.

Right.

Like from a very young age, you feel it. And to live in a world that you don't feel like is yours, You're as a little kid and to grow up through, you know, however long it took you to come out and even after you come out. I mean, look at the look what's happening right now in our country. Like this trauma as a as a as a community is one of those things that really connects our our journeys with recovery in a really unique way. So if you can get in touch with people or listen to podcasts like this that are of the queer community experience, it's it's really helpful.

Yeah, yeah. And that this whole time frame, you know, slapping, slapping one time frame on everybody is not wise, right? In my case, I was using sex for validation. I was using sex for my self-worth before I got into meth.

Yep. Yeah, right.

And so I had all these problems first.

Exactly.

That I, that I had to process. Yeah, before, you know, I mean, the guy living with me, that was just to keep me in the house. There was no healing going on there. It was just somebody to get off with, right?

Yeah.

But I had then go into finding my self-worth internally. And you— all that, all that work I did, you know, for 5 years, honestly, for 5 years until my, you know— plus I had to pay attention to my kids. But what I was doing was finding where, where did I— how do I get healed here? And not to mention, a lot of us like me have erectile dysfunction problems when we come out of the meth scene. Yeah, um, it destroyed me down there in terms of, you know, I had to work at that too. I've talked about that. I mean, that, that took a— that takes a lot of work. Mindful masturbation and recreating, like, what, you know, creating in your mind what kind of sexual fantasy makes me hard and what doesn't. You know, it's a lot of trial and error to try to fix everything down there because it's all mental. Yeah, there's nothing physical wrong with me, physically wrong with me. It's a mental thing.

Right.

So anyway, okay, so sex we talked about, but let's talk about dating or falling in love. So what was your process in dating? Like, did you go back to Grindr? Did you have apps? I mean, you have a good community there, but what was your process like?

I do. So, um, initially, so when I was— my first kind of, um, after I had finished this— that's terrible— finished with my, my, my training wheel friends. I know some of them moved, one of them, whatever, it's fine. But once I was ready to start dating, that's the question. Okay, thank you. Okay. So once I was ready to start dating, I downloaded the apps. I had downloaded the apps again. And I actually, the first boyfriend I had after getting sober, I met in Provincetown, which is kind of where I meet a lot of my boyfriends. But so that was just like a social, like, You he was at the gym. I was at the gym. We dated for a little bit, but one thing that I did that I that is the reason I'm in a relationship now is when I was on the apps and I was and I was using them. My username was Sober Dave, just like it's on Instagram. It's Sober Dave eighty five now, but it was Sober Dave in on Scruff. I don't I don't not I didn't use Grindr a lot just because I I just. Connected more with guys on Scruff.

But anyway, when I say Grindr, I mean all of them.

Yeah, all of them.

Cool.

So I, and so every single time that anybody from anywhere in the world would say, hey, I'm sober too, it's so cool to see someone on here just kind of living their truth. Boop, friended. I don't care what you look like. I don't care where you're from. I don't care any of that. I had a little sober folder in Scruff because I knew That in my travels, and if I go to P-Town, if I go to Puerto Vallarta, if I go to London, if I go to any place in the world, somebody I know who's sober might be there, and I might be able to beep have a little friendship with someone in the sober community. So nice. And so the way that me and my current boyfriend met was he was he saw that I had sober in my. In my profile, said hello. We had a quick little conversation, and then when I went to P-Town a couple years ago, he was living there for the summer to work. And there in my little sober folder was my boyfriend Patrick. And I was like, oh my God! Like the sober guy from New York City. Like we should hang out. Like you know if you because I I'm a huge I'm obsessed with P-Town. It's just one of my favorite places in the world. I've been going there for very long, and I have a very very good group of sober. Friends in that town.

Okay.

And so when I'm in P-Town now for this, you know, and my and my current boyfriend's there, I'm like, if you need any connections to meetings and sober people to hang out with because my boyfriend is also sober, I can totally help you. But like, you know, maybe we should hang out because he's incredibly hot and I really wanted to hang out with him. So I so then we just started seeing each other through just. kind of through the apps in a weird kind of convoluted way. It was, it was probably the most wholesome way I think 2 people could have met through the apps. But, um, I was also ready to date.

Mm-hmm.

I had, I had been sober for, you know, a couple of years and, and I had, I had just, you know, I'm almost 40. I'll be turning 40 this year. And I just, I'm starting to slow down. Like my life is starting to slow down. Like, I'm not going out to the clubs and bars as much as I used to. I don't, you know, I'm not as social of a butterfly as I used to be. So it was just kind of that, that kind of perfect moment of the two of us in the right place at the right time. Um, and, and again, like, the apps were part of it.

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. I'm gonna go— I want to comment on some of the things you said, but how do you know when you're ready to date? If I were to ask you.

Mm-hmm. Um, for me it is, it's, it's, I'm gonna quote the, the famous RuPaul is like, if you can't love yourself, how are you gonna, how are you gonna love somebody else? Like, mm-hmm. You feel this, like, for me there was this, this calm and this settle of self.

Mm-hmm.

I was so confident and comfortable with, with myself at the time that I met him. I, the entire first summer we started dating, I remember always saying to my coworkers and my friends and my family, like who had seen pictures of us and it was just like, I have a really great life right now. And he is just an exclamation point on that life. So if I take away that exclamation point, I still have a great life to fall back into.

Mm-hmm.

And I stopped like looking, I stopped being like, I stopped going out with the intention of like maybe someone's here. Maybe I started going out because I wanted to be hang out with like my roommate. I wanted to hang out with my friends. I wanted to the experiences I had been always kind of like searching for a man with, like started to become about me. And then he came into my life and I was like okay perfect. Like it was this. This very like calm existence of I'm ready because I feel like I love me more than I've ever loved me. And then there he was. And I was like, you took my slut summer from me, you poop. But that was fine. And we both say that now. We're like, oh, I was gonna be such a slut that summer. Why did you gotta do that? I was like, I'm not sorry.

Well, maybe that was— your slut summers were worked out of you already.

And that's one thing too. I say this to people too, is I've seen every shape, every size, every color, every, every fucking thing you can bring to the table physically. I have been there, done that, and more. So at this point in my life, like, I don't care how big your dick is. I don't care how, you know, how tall you are. I don't care how much money you have. I don't care any of that because I've seen it all.

Yeah.

So you gotta bring something real special.

Yeah.

And it's that spark. It's that connection. It's that fire. It's that, that the ability to make each other laugh and to feel comfortable.

Yeah.

It's like I'm, I'm living with my best friend. I'm getting, you know, I'm, I'm having sex with my best friend. Mm-hmm. And there's nobody else that can top him because we just fit. Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there's, I, he doesn't make me question myself. He doesn't make me question him. He doesn't make, like, our, our paths are also so such an open book. Like if you're going into any relationship feeling like there's hesitation of acceptance from that other person, it is the wrong place for you to be.

Yeah.

Like initially, of course, there's like things you have to work out, but if like after a while, if you're still finding yourself sitting in uncomfortable space, If you still find yourself being like, oh, I hope I didn't act too gay. I hope I didn't. Um, I hope he doesn't see that I watch, um, you know, endless dinosaur videos on YouTube. I hope he doesn't— like, if it is any of that, it's like, mm-mm. Yeah, that's— that is not a safe space for you.

That's right. And you're not ready because, right? Yeah. If, if you haven't worked through enough of your shame, Then you're not going to be authentic because you're going to want— because shame is rejecting or hiding parts of yourself. So if you go into a relationship trying to hide parts of yourself, it's not going to work.

Exactly. And, and it— you can't pretend forever. You can't hide forever because eventually, like, the truth will come out, whether it's, you know, a month in or 2 or a year. It's like, if you can't authentically be yourself Pretty much from the very beginning, like from the very beginning, then that's it's a it's you're banking on a lie and that's not gonna ever work out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you also have to like you also have to know you can't change people. A lot of guys go in like oh but I can change him.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Like you you you first of all that's you shouldn't have to.

Right.

And yeah you can't like that you guys should be grown-ass adults like you shouldn't have someone trying to manipulate you into being what they want. Yeah, that's not real.

That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I want to go back to that you're saying is a reclamation. You're, you're reclaiming the apps, you know, and, and I love that because I— so all my clients, I have them block the apps and sites from their phone, um, so they cannot access them.

At all. Fair.

Um, and that's the thing. Look, you, you have to infantilize yourself in the beginning because of the nature of this drug and the nature of the fact that it's all accessible right there at an app. Yeah. So you have to take things away. So anyway, so the question I get a lot is, is this forever? I can't go on Grindr ever again? You know, and—

Yeah, right.

Yeah. I mean, and I don't because I don't, you know, for me, I'm like you. I'm like, I've had sex like 1,000 times. I'm okay with Taking a little break. But, but, but the answer is no, you don't have to. You, you don't have to give it up forever. But like you're saying, your username was Sober Dave. You reclaimed what it was. You set boundaries and standards for yourself on the app. And I think, I think that's great. I think that's a, that's a new way to do it.

And I think, yeah, it's— I mean, for a lot of us, like, Grindr and Scruff is The like meth storefront.

It is.

That's where you go. That's where the boys are that you always, you know, hook up with and buy from and use with and all that stuff. And so you're right. It does take. It does take a certain amount of of of culling and elimination of of of the people that you don't want to be because like even like when I first got on there after you know six months to a year being sober. I definitely went through and blocked every drug dealer and every guy I used to party with and every, you know, for sure. Like, but it's, it is one of those things where you can go back, but you also have to be honest with yourself. If you go back on there and you start to get those butterflies in your stomach about maybe some guy asks or, you know, the, the do you party question, or you see a little, you know, emoji or a little, you know, code word in there, is that, does that give you feelings? Then you need to be honest with yourself and jump back off and really work on what— that means your, your work isn't done yet if you, if you still, um, get that feeling.

That's right. And I've seen it time and again, like, guys, they— you, you get to the point where, you know, they don't even have to have a party symbol. Sometimes you just know by the way they're talking, the way they're responding. There's a lot of ways that you just intuitively know this guy's partying.

I mean, it's so funny you say that. I went to Miami Pride 2 years ago with my friend Thomas, and, um, and we were— it was, it was really, it was fun. It was a fun weekend. So he was going off, and he's, she's like, oh my God, you gotta see this guy. And I looked at— I took one look at the picture of it, of that guy's profile picture. I was like, you might be walking into a little bit of a messy situation. He's like, from one picture? He's like, whatever. And then he went came back, closed door of the hotel and goes, you were absolutely right. And I was like, I know. I was like, I could see, I could just feel it. And that is so funny you say that.

Yeah, you do. And so you're, you're tempted. If you know that intuitively, and you click on that, that profile and begin talking with them, you know that there, you need to get off the app. Because you're playing, you're playing with fire. You're doing it on purpose. Don't act like you're— who you're fooling? You're fooling yourself.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's that spidey sense. And honestly, like, what you're not changing, you're choosing. And you just gotta— I remember too, for me, the— I needed to feel gross about the idea of partying.

Yeah.

For me to really feel comfortable. The boyfriend that I broke up with, um, that got me sober in 2020, I remember, um, him talking about his partying experiences over in the UK. And he would say, when he would tell me those stories, he's like, ugh, it makes me sick to my stomach. I'm not gonna do a British accent because it's bad. But he's like, he would say like, he was like, it's, it makes me sick to my stomach to think about that. But when he was telling me those stories, it didn't make me sick to my stomach.

Yeah, right.

It made me curious. I was like, I wonder. And I mean, like, your brain goes everywhere. What was the lighting like? Like, what was the porn that was playing? Like, whose was the, who had the biggest dick in the group? And I'm like, oh yeah. When I finally came through with my sobriety and finally worked on myself, now when I think about that stuff, it makes me sick to my stomach. And that is a very comforting feeling, knowing that like I can just get that feeling like, no, like there was a simple story he told me that he, that made his skin crawl. He said, I hate when you're partying with people and there's that one person that's like, I'm going to go down and get some snacks. Does anyone want any? And the idea of like going down and outside.

Yeah.

Of a party situation into the real world to go to the store. Like that. Now I think of that and I'm like, uh, like I can, I can feel like pulling like my jeans up over my like slippery legs and like I can just, that just the whole experience. And like, I remember like that was such a good thing that I actually reflect on pretty frequently is when he was just like, that's such a perfect example. And if you don't find that feeling, then like, it's— there's still a little sparkle in the back of your head.

That's, that's right.

You know, that could catch flame, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what, what irks me about that too is I remember if you— if I did have to go to the store or something like that and get back, what a feat. Like, what an adventure. Like, what, what it took to get there and back.

Seriously. And then like, it's— you're in there in the store, just So desperate to get back in that dark room with those nasty dudes. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that reminds me, there's the, the UK is— so I have clients in the UK too, and that's a whole other scene. Um, but there was this famous video, um, I think it was from Australia though, but it's called Slammed or something like that.

Oh, I know that very well.

You know that one?

Yeah, the main actor, actor, man, um, is, is Australian.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think he passed away, but—

No, I'm— I can't.

But anyway, yeah, I had a— I had a client telling me how his facial expression in that movie, in that film, that porn or whatever, was so— was such a turn-on. And it made me remember, I remember watching it with a group of guys and it was a turn-on, but then when I thought about it now, I just started to cry. Because I— to think about what that facial expression really was, you know, just the slamming and the being a part of that myself, I started to get really emotional about it because I was like, I don't like that look anymore, right? I don't like that. I don't like that whole scene. It just makes me sad to know that what they were really feeling and what they were going to go through next.

Yeah, exactly. And that's definitely something like— I remember being at a party and someone saying, you look so high, it's so hot. And I was like, what does that even mean? But you think you mentioned that video, it's like, it's that bug-eyed, like, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, and it's, and I think there's definitely certain, there's certain memories of, of being in those situations that you have to kind of like really deal with of, you think it's hot in the time, you think it's hot and even in your memory, but you have to remember, for me now, what I think about is if I ever reflect on those times now, what my memory mostly goes to is Leaving that person's apartment in the morning at like 6, 7 AM, climbing into an Uber in the cold, getting back to my apartment, sometimes having to work that day. It's like my mind now goes to that whole, yeah, for me, 4 or 5 days of recovery that I'm like, it's just like even sometimes like waking up really early and going outside. I'm like, It's it's I don't like to say that I necessarily have like triggers now, but there are moments and there's these experiences that make me remember what it used to be like, and I get a little bit of that that shiver of kind of like ugh I remember when ba ba ba ba. Um, but yeah, that just that look in that person's face is just something that like again that'll and that'll take time and that'll take honesty and that'll take that's right you know some work for sure.

It does. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing that I want to mention— this is off topic— but is one good tactic when you do have a craving, when you have a trigger. Number one, like you said, number one is jerk off. Yes.

Get it right out your system, baby.

Get it out. Post-nut clarity. You won't even want to anymore most of the time.

Exactly.

You have to do— if you have to jerk off twice, jerk off twice, whatever. Yeah. Um, but secondly is have a letter or a video or just take yourself back to what it's like after, what you have to do the next morning. Like you said, like being out in the sunshine and going back, have to go to work, lying to your friends, lying to your family, lying to your roommate, whatever. And then just that whole week or two after that, that's really what chemsex is. Yeah, you know, the, the— you have like 10% of it having sex and then 80% of it is all the recovery.

Yeah, exactly.

So, okay, you, you reclaim the apps. You even re— you even reclaimed party areas, which I think is important, is that you could have said, I'm not going back to P-Town, because I'm assuming you partied there.

I don't know. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

But you could have said, I'm not going back, right? But you reclaimed it as a sober, and you still had fun, which is great. I love that. I love that. Yeah.

I think I was— one of the most poignant moments in my recovery, um, I was in P-Town about a week after my one year. So, and it was during the breakout COVID infections that made like national news for so long. And I was like, oh God, not P-Town. Oh no. But I was traveling down on a bus because it was raining and the ferry was not running. And halfway down, it's a 2.5-hour bus ride, by the way. Halfway down, the person I was staying with texts me. He's like, I have fucking COVID.

Oh God.

And so I remember getting to his place and me being like, okay, like I can jump right on the next ferry and go home. Like no harm, no foul. Like it's fine. And he was like, no, let me get you an apartment. Let me get you a hotel for the night. Just, and I feel bad you came all the way down here. Blah, blah, blah. So it was an incredibly stressful time because people are getting COVID all over the place. I'm one year sober, like for, you know, one year and a week sober. And I remember sitting outside of his apartment being like, I'm so glad I'm sober because this is an extremely stressful moment. And I think going and using crystal meth would be so easy and so like relaxing.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And I was like, I'm so glad I'm sober. And he was like, okay, I've got you a hotel room. So I walk all the way down to the hotel room that he got me, and it is directly across the street From one of the places I used to party all the fucking time.

Oh God.

And I stood, I had my bags, I looked up at this and I was like, you have got to be kidding me. And I was like, and I just kind of like clapped my hands together and was like, thank you. Because this there, it could not have been more of like a blatant test of my resolve. And yeah, I was like, hand to God, honey, I just can't. I'm just, oh my God. And, and I didn't, I had a I had a great time. I went out, saw a bunch of my friends, and then the next morning got in a, got in a bus and went back home and did not get COVID, which was great. So it's, it's for sure one of those things where like, if that moment and that stress and that anxiety and that didn't break me and this place that I call my second home, yeah, I can still enjoy it while I can see the crack house across the street from a hotel room, then this is my This is my place. This is my home. And it's like, yeah, you that's one thing that is not not the case for everybody. There are certain people that just you can't like for me, I can go out to dance at the clubs. I can go to P Town. I can go and do all those things. But that's because I feel like that first six months to a year of sobriety was just I couldn't do any of those things. I couldn't go out. I couldn't because we're in COVID. So. The foundation that I laid was so strong that anywhere really was possible for me. I've even I'll I've even I've even slept with boys I used to party with. Yeah, again.

Yeah.

Um.

Yeah.

And that's also a very eye-opening experience to being like, why did we do this so many times? It's so bad. Oh no. And yeah. I'm not even kidding you. Nine times out of ten, there haven't been that many. I don't want to whatever, but the couple of times I've done that, the sex is terrible. It's over really quick, and then we sit and lay in my bed and talk about how wonderful sobriety is. And sometimes they're not sober, and they're still using. They would never with me because obviously, like that's completely out of question. But like I'm I I find myself sitting there talking to these guys for a long time, being like. you know, telling all my stories of how I did it and what I did and how I broke out of it. And, um, so again, do not recommend, but like, it's also, it's, if you can just be honest and be self-aware and be strong in yourself and you, I think anything you can really do anything that it takes to be sober and still live the life that you've lived before.

Yeah. I think that's important. Important. So you started dating— did you start dating your boyfriend? What— was there any challenges that, that came up that you didn't expect that were maybe related to recovery or meth use, um, in terms of, I don't know, anything— sex or relationships or, you know, what, what surprised you about dating him?

Um, There haven't been too many surprises. I think we definitely, definitely both have learned a lot from each other about our own addiction experiences. 'Cause he's a drinker.

Okay.

So he was, he was a, he's sober from alcohol. He never did, um, he never did crystal meth. He didn't even do a lot of hard drugs or anything like that. So, um, but as far as like any sort of road bumps in our relationship because of like any sort of past, um, I like hate to say no, but like we haven't really run into any problems as far as anything outside of a normal relationship issue.

Sure.

I mean, there's definitely certain, like, I'm a little more kinky than he is. And so, you know, we've dabbled a little bit in that, but for the most part, when it comes to like any sort of like recovery issues, We really have been pretty solid. I did. I did one time he was telling me he hooked up with someone before me, and he was like telling the story, and I was like just like the things he was saying. I was like, "I think that guy was on is on crystal," and he was like, and because he I remember him being like, "My my boyfriend is not fucking around," and so they were going at it for a while, and then at the end the guy was like. Can you bring me down to the Dick Dock, which is like the hookup cruising spot?

Oh, yeah.

Of P-Town. And I was like, he wanted more after that. I was like, I'm a, I'm a seasoned professional and I need a little bit of a rest. Um, and then we were actually walking down the street with one of his roommates at the time. And I was like, Travis, I think that he had a meth head in his bed. And he was like, really? Oh my God, I hadn't. So if for nothing else, like, I'm educating him more on like the signs. And that was one thing too, is just like, um, the, like the verbiage and the, and the, the code words and the signs and the, you know what I mean? There's like, we all know.

Right.

Um, and so I remember like we were, I think we were in an Uber to the club one night because we, we also go-go dance together every once in a while. And I remember going through like the list of like the code words that you would see on like a Grindr or a Scruff app. And he's, some of them, he's like, what is that? That sounds crazy. And I'm like, no, it's, it's just because we got to be sneaky.

Yeah, supposedly.

Yeah.

Unless you're on sniffies.

Which I'm— I have been out of the fucking around game.

Yeah.

From before the sniffies really took hold. I haven't even seen— I like, I guess I see sometimes like people make like, like screenshots of like what the map looks like. That's just wild.

Yeah, wild. This is Grindr. Grindr times 10.

Yeah. Which is, listen, if you— if that's your— if that's your jam, go for it.

But Go for it. Um, okay, well, and I think that question was really geared to see, like, the answer really, I think, is that you and your boyfriend were both— you've both done the work first.

Very much so. Yeah, he's been sober for 17 years, so yeah, he really knows what's going on. Um, I think sometimes people don't realize that love can be an addiction too.

Hmm.

Or the idea of love can be an addiction. And I think that's one thing, like in new relationships, that when you are sober, that relationship sometimes turns into your new addiction. And I think that's, that's something that takes a lot of, like, a lot of years of kind of self-reflection to see. And I think unfortunately for me, that relationship that ended that got me into sobriety and was a little bit of that because I remember when I was with my ex, I was like, I, I don't want to do drugs at all when I'm with him.

Mm-hmm.

And what it should be is I don't ever want to do drugs. It should be that. It shouldn't be because before, before I met him, I was still using. I was using up to the week that we started dating and Mm-hmm. So I think again, that was, that was again something that I really had to take a look at with my therapist and my coaches and stuff like that was, that's not to say I did not love him. I love him very, very much and I still love him. We still talk all the time. And my current boyfriend and I are actually going to take a trip to London in the summertime and we're gonna see him and all that stuff. So nice. I did love him very much. I do love him very much. But I feel like also his love was like a, a, a bandaid on my sobriety.

Sure.

And on my using.

Yeah.

And so once, of course, you know, that was, that's a little bit something that I, cuz I've seen some guys in early recovery like hooking up and getting together and it's kind of like a fiery mess. And it's, again, it's not everybody's experience, but, um, that attention and that lust and that love can be kind of a little bit problematic if you're not ready for it. Yes.

And I've seen this a million times, is you start dating too soon and you date somebody who's sober and you feel like, oh, this is, you know, you, you fall in love with the fact that they're sober. And I've had several guys come to me and I can tell by the conversation that they want to date me to get sober, right?

Right.

And so when you When you date somebody that's sober and then, and then all of a sudden you're— you have this long string of, of abstinence from meth only because you're in the relationship, you still have the work to do.

Exactly.

Because when that guy leaves, guess what you're going to do immediately? And I've seen it a million times. The day you break up, you go on a bender. Yeah, on a binge, because you haven't done the work. You have to still work at it. You have to still work on your, your recovery when you're dating somebody, even if they are sober, even if you've been sober for 6 months or a year. If you've stopped doing the work when you started dating them, you, you have to pick up where you left off.

And I think it gets a— there also gets a little bit of a point where like there's comparison. You're comparing yourself to them. Like I've been— this is a good example. When I first got sober, um, I made this friend in this, in the community and I was— took him under my wing a little bit and I had had a good amount of sobriety under my belt and he was fresh, new. And I remember him. Being like, I want to be able to go out in P-Town like you. I want to be able to go and do the clubs like you. Like, can you take me? Can you do this? And I tried, but luckily for me, this person was pretty good at communicating when they were like done and it was like time to leave. And like, which was, I thought was good of him. But there's definitely like, you know, then we're walking back from the club and he's like, how do you do it? Like, how did you? I'm like, because I've had time.

Yeah.

And that comparison. He was making of himself to me was causing his stress to compile on top of him, which he then started to spiral into. I need to be sober like that now. I need to be able to do that now. I want to have a boyfriend now. I want to have these boys. And it's like when you start to compare yourself, even just to your own ideas of what you should be, it starts to cause so much anxiety and stress that you just implode and. That's, I think, something to be cautious of too, is like, yeah, just keeping in mind that people have had more time than you and different and also just different experiences. Like, some of my friends that are in my group were daily crystal meth users every single day, wake up and shoot up 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 times a day every single day for years.

Right.

And my experience is so much different from them.

That's right.

And it's, it's something to always keep in mind that like you're, you have to understand that people's experiences are going to be different and everyone's recovery is going to be different.

Yeah.

I sometimes felt a little bit like imposter syndrome as being a leader of this group because I'm like, not, not the, not the little suburban white boy being like, my boyfriend broke up with me and then I stopped drugs. Meanwhile, this like guy's who Like, I was living in an abandoned institution for 5 months, and then I was in a gator pond and that, that, like, you just, and I'm like, but, um, and I think to some people they make it look easy. To some people it's, it's, it is rough and tumble and nail biting hard, hard, hard, hard to get out of this cycle. Yeah.

That's right.

And you have to be able to understand that. Yeah. Because that's hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Patience. Time. Patience.

Mm-hmm. And just passion. Yeah. And no one, and nobody, no one thinks that's cool now. Like everyone is so fast-paced and so immediate and so, and it's like, and that's not even just a generational thing. It's like, it's just everyone in general is just, I feel like moving at the speed of light and it's like, yeah. Nope, it just takes a long time sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. Which is one reason we got into meth in the first place. It's a shortcut. It's a shortcut to end your trauma. It's a shortcut to end your shame. It's a shortcut to get into sex. You know, it's a, it's a shortcut. You don't have to get to know somebody, you know. Um, it, it— you can even rent, go to Rent Men, and they bring the The meth with them. Wow. So that's even more of a shortcut. You don't even have to, to vet them on Grindr.

Exactly, exactly. Oh man.

So it's a shortcut, shortcut, shortcut. And, and so the opposite of that is going to be the long game.

Yep, it's true. And it's just— and you just have to just suck it up and deal with it. You just have to do it. I'm sorry, that's not to sound insensitive, but like, yeah.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, well, Dave, what did I miss? What did I not ask that I should have?

Hmm, you're very thorough. So, um, but I think just like, I mean, any, any— I think just in general, like, post, or even if you're not, if you're not an addict, like, relationships are always going to be hard. Sex is always going to be weird and messy and smelly. And just, there are certain things about just being a human being that you just have to accept and that you have to put your, like, leave your perfectionism at the door. I mean, you're never gonna have, the relationship is never gonna be perfect.

Yeah.

Me and my boyfriend struggle with things all the time. And it's, Michelle Obama was talking about her relationship with Barack was Sometimes it's not 50/50. Sometimes it's 70/30 or 60/40. And sometimes it's like, it's 90/10. Like, you have to understand that there— your Instagram feed does not— it's not real.

Mm-hmm.

Your Grindr— the Grindr world is not real. It is a curated and produced version of everyone's life. Yeah. Me and my boyfriend are great together, and it's the best relationship I've ever been in. But there's always times where we'd be like, it's hard and things. And let me— and hard in the sense of like, the person you're with isn't always going to be happy and jovial and horny and hard and excited and ready for anything. And the work comes from being able to sit with someone that is going through fucking hell, and there's nothing you can do about it except just just be there. That's the work. The work is realizing that he's gonna go to work and he's gonna have a shitty day and you're gonna have the best day and you're gonna have to navigate how to get through dinner together.

Hmm.

You're gonna have to realize that you're gonna make mistakes. You're not gonna— like today I didn't clean the kitchen.

Yeah.

So I got, I got snapped at and you're gonna have to navigate how to make that A comfortable or uncomfortable situation, and clean out my shaker bottles and finish the rice. And that that that like there are just that's the work because I always hear people always say marriage is work, relationships are work, and then no one really goes on to explain what that means. And sometimes your boyfriend wants to paint the room dark green, and you're like, but it's such a small space. Why are we doing that? But he is insistent, and so we have swatches on the walls. Sometimes you come home and the entire, you know, hallway is taped off and ready to paint, and you haven't bought a single gallon of paint, but you just stand there and you, and you accept the person that you're with for who they are, and you roll with your punches. Mm-hmm. And sex is the same way. You're gonna have to understand that maybe 10 inches wasn't actually 10 inches.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe he wasn't exactly the person you thought he was coming over or whatever. Or maybe that friend that you really wanted to have sex with for so long, the chemistry is dead in the bedroom. There are just— it is, and the work is how you're going to deal with it. You react to exactly what is presented to you, and you either make it work or you say no thank you. And drugs have just taken all of that work away. And there are people that you would have slept with, you would never have slept with without the drugs. And then there are sometimes people that like come into your life that you would have never thought would have even been an option. And then now that you have a clear head, they are. And so just be ready to work. And that's what work means. And work sometimes too, like, I don't, I know it's, it's not always fun and easy to talk about, but sometimes with work, sometimes it relapse hap— relapse happens. There's a guy on Instagram who I can't remember his, his name exactly, but he's Been kind of like he's dark hair young guy. He's been documenting his like recovering crystal meth, like Owen. Yeah, just so honestly. And it's one of those things where I think like it's it's it's accounts like that that honestly and in real time show you this the crash and burn, the crash and burn, the steps and crash and burn that make it more real. Because I mean, I follow a lot of sober Instagram influencers and they're bodybuilders and now they're models and they're moms and they're this and they're that. And it's like, look, I fall into that category where like I'm outside of my relapse phase, you know, but it sometimes is, it takes that kind of honesty to just that constant fall and that constant But it, as we say in gymnastics, it doesn't matter how many times you fall, you, it's how many times you get up. Hmm.

Yeah.

And if you watch a show, like, as long as it's not triggering for you, like Euphoria, where it's like she just, she just keeps fucking herself up. And that is sometimes one of the hardest things that people to deal with is the fact that that is sometimes just part of it. Not to keep that in the back of your mind, be like, well, I heard on this podcast that guy from Boston said sometimes it's part of it, so I'm just gonna go do it. That's not it. But you have to be kind to yourself.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yep. I agree. Agree. Agree. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for this discussion. I think it's going to help a lot of people around the world, a lot of you guys. So if you guys have questions for Dave, we'll put his contact information in the show notes. If you want to join in the conversation, you can always comment. Like I said, comment on this Spotify allows you to comment. Our YouTube channel allows you to comment, and I, I respond to every comment there. Um, or you can text using that number that's— that is automatically populated on the, the show notes. Just remember, don't ask a question there because I can't answer you back. All right, thank you, Dave, again. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. I appreciate you having me on. It's been great.

Good. And I'll see you all next week.