EP 2:9 Sexual Healing through Dance with Gary

Hey y'all, if you are abstinent from meth but still struggling to find sexual pleasure and intimacy, you will definitely want to pay close attention to this episode. So many of us are walking around without fully embodying what it means to feel ecstasy and true sexual pleasure. Our definition of what that means has been dictated to us by mainstream gay culture, and that message is sorely lacking. You are disappointed in your sex life because of the definitions and expectations you've created that completely miss the mark. Sexy, pleasurable, full-body connection can be achieved on new levels once coming out of meth use, because in recovery we begin to discover connection with ourselves first. And that's what's important here. But many of us get to a certain point and our recovery and remain plateaued when it comes to sex. You'll find one route to break that plateau in today's podcast about conscious dance. My guest Gary is not only an experienced therapist and soon-to-be sexologist, but has tapped into a practice that could revolutionize life after meth. After recording with him, I decided to take it upon myself to try conscious dancing. And of course, I ended up purging all kinds of emotion through tears, which is typically what I do. But that emotion broke when, during the climax of one song, I began holding myself. I began exploring my own body. It was different than when I do it through mindful masturbation. It was just a, it was just a kind of a unique experience, and I didn't realize Just how badly my physical body was yearning for touch, and real sensual touch. I'm not real sure when I've experienced sensations on my skin like that, and I'm so grateful that it came from me first. Now I know what I like. I am 100% sold on Conscious Dance now, and I hope you will be too after listening to our conversation. Enjoy.

In a way that's totally sober, totally conscious, totally alive and connected to my heart, soul, body, and spirit. And I don't have a hangover the next day, and I go to bed with a smile on my face.

Um, the Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system And/or your support network. Let's go. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. You know who I am, but you get to meet somebody new today, a new friend of mine, Gary. And I'm really excited to meet new friends all around the world. And it's interesting to me that I click faster and harder with people in different countries than I do with my next-door neighbors. I don't know what that says about me. But I really, I think Gary and I had a We had conversations on social media, on Instagram, and then we met through Zoom, and it was just an instant click. And I would love to be able to, to, uh, to participate in what Gary does, which you're going to find out in a minute. But first, you're going to listen to my spiel, which is thank you for being here. I am so grateful that you're here. And I want to say this on every episode, that just to express just how thankful and in appreciation I am that you've taken the time out.

Thank you.

for this podcast, and you've taken the time out to support the mission of this podcast. I'm just seeing so many queer members of the queer community be flippant and, and actually come against me for doing what I'm doing, um, in that let's just let them have fun, let them express themselves sexually, um, let them do what they want to do, blah blah blah. And these are guys— If you don't know If you haven't seen what crystal meth can do to someone's life, then what— you're speaking out of your ass, basically. Um, and this isn't a drug that is a, a fun party sex drug. This isn't ecstasy, this isn't molly, this isn't coke even. This is a drug that destroys you sexually. It erases your arousal and sexual template. You basically many times have to start over, and you're faced with experiencing sex on such a high false level that you have to take sometimes years and time to adjust and get back to enjoying sex again. So this isn't just live and let live, guys. And I just want to really appreciate you for understanding that this is an epidemic and this is a problem and that you're tuning in and supporting. So anything you can do to support the show, So listening is great, but if you could share on your social media, I would greatly appreciate that too. But I understand many of you don't want to come out of another closet, and that's the meth closet. We're faced with stigma. We're faced with stigma in the general population. We're faced with enough stigma in our population of being a meth user. So I get it if you don't want to share it, but if you can, I would greatly appreciate that. We want to get the word out. We want to get the word out. Also to loved ones, loved ones who are watching their gay brother, son, uncle, father, partner destroying their lives. And they just— I have— I hear from loved ones every day. What do I do? How do I help? What is going on? Why does he disappear? Why is he turning against me? You know, this, this drug does so many things, but it also destroys your ability to feel empathy. So you turn against the people who have your best interest at heart. In the name of defending and turning for men who do not have any interest in you whatsoever besides a sex symbol. So we want loved ones to understand that. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide that comes along with every episode. The link will be in the show notes. You can also get that link and the study guide in your inbox by subscribing to my blog. It is at drdallasbragg.com. I think that's it. Oh, free safe Facebook community. If you would like to join the free Facebook community, the link to that will be in the show notes as well. I'd really love to get that community more active right now. Um, I'm probably not doing a good job of cultivating that, but please join and let's get in there and have daily discussions and support for one another. That being said, I want to introduce Gary. We are going to talk today about just what I was just saying is rebuilding, healing your sexual template, your arousal template, understanding what intimacy means. Um, you guys have the number one problem, the number one question, the number one need out there is how do I reintegrate sexually after I have experienced what I experienced with crystal meth? How do I do that? How do I even have sex again? And will I ever enjoy sober sex again? And many of you are so confused and lost, and there's not that many people out there who can help. But this is going to be something I want you to listen to, to think about, and to investigate. So that being said, let me introduce Gary. Gary is an award-winning music maker and performer. He's a conscious DJ, writer, and creator of Pleasure Medicine, a biweekly evening of sensual connection and conscious dance for the LGBTQ men in Hackney. East London. With over a decade of experience as a therapist, currently training as a somatic embodied sexologist— yes— Gary is devoted to helping LGBTQ men unlock their pleasure centers, soften shame, and rediscover joy, intimacy, and sensuality through embodied dance and celebratory sexuality. Thank you. Celebratory sexuality is not what you think it is and what you've seen At Pride. Okay, Gary is a columnist for queer culture magazine QX Magazine and writes personal story and opinion pieces as well as cultural analysis, all from the perspective of being in the waters with the reader, just trying to work it all out. Aren't we all trying to do that? So that being said, now you can talk, Gary.

Welcome. So Hello, Dr. D. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here and an honor. You know, your work, oh, it really touches my heart. I had— I have lost a friend to chemsex addiction, uh, you know, just to start off right in the thick of it. A friend of mine, yeah, died at a chemsex party years and years ago, somebody that I lived with and was a great friend of mine. And I've had other friends, you know, from my partying and clubbing past that went down the chemsex route and really ravaged their lives and their body from it. Um, some of them have come out of it and healed, and some of them haven't. And so it really strikes a really personal chord in my heart, and it's an honor to be here to talk about the part that I can play in, in supporting people to come back into their true essence, their celebratory sexuality, through, through their body and through dance.

Love that. Sorry to hear about your friend and friends. Um, many, many. I— it actually surprises me, the, the gay men on social media who are coming out against me. I had one guy from LA, Los Angeles, say chemsex is not a problem here. I know no one who's doing— who's using crystal meth. I'm like, okay, you're delusional.

Fish.

Um, but, but for the most part, if you are a gay man, you probably know someone, you, a friend who has trapped, who got trapped up in chemsex. You know, it happens. I, I had a group of, a huge group of friends, and all of a sudden I start disa— you know, disappearing early or not showing up, or I would bring some strange fucking weirdo to the group and everybody's like, what's going on? You know, and finally I just stopped showing up because I was involved with chemsex. And, um, there is— there was nothing anyone could say to me to change my mind. And it's hard for your friends to watch that.

Yeah, well, I, I have not suffered with chemsex addiction, but I've suffered with sex addiction. Um, many of those habits and compulsions and behaviors that you described are the same with or without the drugs.

Sure.

So disappearing, navigating my day to try to find that sexual encounter, not showing up to friends, not replying, um, not necessarily bringing strange people into the group. But, you know, a lot of those behaviors are very similar, I think, in all, in all sort of, um, different forms of addiction. You know, there's a lot of addiction in my family, um, in the men in my family particularly. So I've seen a lot of those patterns play out in all kinds of addictions— drug addiction, alcohol addiction, sex addiction. Um, and yeah, like you say, if you don't know somebody who is suffering with chemsex addiction, you probably do know somebody who is, and— but you don't know about it, right? Because it's one of those deep secrecy, shame-fueled things that a lot of people are hiding.

Yeah, yeah. And it seems like the, the guys that I encounter in the UK, in London, um, they're better at functioning. It seems like they're a little better at maintaining a life in the week, doing the party on the weekend. They can keep that going longer than I see Americans. I guess we're just, you know, we're gluttons in every way, I guess. But I do see that difference in the 2 countries. In the scene. Um, yeah, so it's funny that you mentioned sex addiction too, because if you're becoming— studying to be a sexologist, it'll be interesting because I— most men who are in the chemsex scene were sex addicts first or became sex addicts.

Yeah.

Also, this is kind of a new thing that I'm looking at, is We're also gambling addicts because guess what our slot machine is? Grindr. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Winner, winner, winner. And we can't stop. We can't stop pulling the slot, which is— we cannot stop. And, um, there's, there's that.

That involves the seek, the seeking, the searching. Yeah. The finding, the pic swapping.

Mm-hmm.

All of that, uh, dopamine activation. And, you know, we're sort of sometimes fighting an uphill battle. Although we are totally responsible to own our own behavior, it's not always necessarily our fault because, you know, you look at the money that's piled into creating these apps, you know, they spend so much money just figuring out which shade of a color to make that notification the perfect type of red or that perfect sound to activate just a little bit more dopamine.

Yeah.

You know, and if you think about the Grindr app itself, the logo is— I mean, it looks like the Hannibal Lecter mask to me. Like, it's a mask, it's hidden, it's the black and yellow, which are the toxic chemical colors that you'll find in a science lab. So it's a very interesting energy that's wrapped up, you know, in the sort of collective consciousness of these apps.

Exactly, exactly right. And They are making their money from meth users. That's my—

that—

because who uses Grindr the most? Like, if I'm a regular guy and I'm just on— yeah, I mean, there are some guys who's addict— they are addicted to it and they're scrolling a lot, but they'll shut it off at 10 PM. They'll either jerk off or, or hook up and they go to sleep. If I'm using crystal meth, I'm not going to sleep.

Mm-hmm.

I'm on there all night for days. I remember I would sit in my bed until my body was fucking just aching from sitting in the same position because I was stuck. I could not get off of the app. And that's who they're making money off of. And I don't even want to get started on my Grindr, my Grindr kick. But I— it's just, it's ridiculous the way that it's all, it's all designed, like you said. So there's an element of gambling addiction. And just like gambling addiction, we get high in the anticipation of using crystal meth from the app. So we're already high before we get high. A lot of times it's the anticipation of it. So anyway, that is not what we're here to talk about. I guess we're talking—

So much to dive in on that topic.

Well, okay, so I like to start at 101, and I like to be talked to like a 2-year-old. So tell me what— tell me and the listeners who also like that, what is conscious dance?

Yeah, so conscious dance is a way of connecting with your own body, the essence of who you are, and the intrinsic qualities of your humanity through dancing in a way that is totally different to the way that we're used to doing it with the bars and the booze and the clubs and the drugs.

Mm-hmm.

It's a space that is so much softer and so much kinder where LGBTQ men can connect in something that feels a lot more sensual and a lot more intimate, um, and often a lot more vulnerable as well.

Yeah.

Um, and it's also a space that is really joyful and filled with delight and filled with pleasure. So my conscious dance is called Pleasure Medicine for a reason, because I believe that pleasure is really a truly powerful medicine when we're looking at healing trauma and shame and all of those things that come with being a, a LGBTQ man. So yeah, in its essence, a conscious dance is a way of connecting with and expressing yourself through dance, but not in that sidesteppy, eye-glancy way that we're all used to in like the sort of archetypal gay club circuit party type thing. Um, and so yeah, that's what it really is in its essence. It's inspired by practices like Five Rhythms, movement medicine, and ecstatic dance, which I have been a devotee of for 7 years. Um, I call those practices my church. Um, you know, I'm spiritual but not religious, but those practices— this practice for me has given me so much in my life, from community and soul family a way to be with, you know, loud thumping pumping music, but in a way that's totally sober, totally conscious, totally alive and connected to my heart, soul, body, and spirit. And I don't have a hangover the next day, and I go to bed with a smile on my face.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the only thing is that here in London, I'm not finding that for gay men or the queer community. it's not really out there in the way that I need it to be and that I want it to be. So there are loads of mixed spaces and heterosexual spaces for that kind of work, but there's very, very little for, for LGBTQ men. And so that's the reason that I'm creating it. It's a classic story, really. It's, you know, I'm creating the thing that I wanna see in the world that I can't find.

Mm-hmm.

And specifically in the way that I want it, which is, you know, imbued with sensuality and intimacy. I think, It's interesting with your work around chemsex addiction and talking about sex because what I realized is that if a group of men, queer men, gay, LGBTQ men are gonna be in a room together, there's going to be a sexual energy.

Yeah.

It seems to just be baked into our DNA, right? So what I'm trying to do with Pleasure Medicine is to create a space that acknowledges that there's gonna be a sexual tension in the air, right? Our sexuality, I call it celebratory sexuality because, um, it is something that's wonderful and beautiful and gorgeous and natural, right? Sexual energy. But as queer men, we've got that down. That's sort of just there in, in the air wherever we go. So pleasure medicine is sort of moving beyond the sexual energy and moving into softer intimacy and softer sensuality so that you can really meet yourself and other men in a new way that we're just not used to doing. We're not— we haven't been taught or trained by anybody how to relate to the human being in front of us beyond a stat or a label, you know, bear, daddy, twink, uh, otter, top, bottom. You know, we're so used to now having these lists of stats. and information that we go yes, yes, no, no, yes, no, yes, yes. And so with pleasure medicine through conscious dance, I really want to re-educate us all, including myself. You know, I'm— as in my bio it says, I'm in the waters working this out, right? Um, and so I really, yeah, I want to create this space where we can really meet each other and relate to each other in, in, in a way that's so much more Human and of the heart. So I didn't really speak to you like a 2-year-old there. And listener, please forgive me, I'm massively ADHD and neurodiverse. I will go off on all kinds of tangents. I know that so many of you out there listening will also be neurodiverse, so I know that you're on the roller coaster with me.

Yeah, they'll love that. They'll love that. So the thing that— a couple things that come to mind for me, and that is what I'm hearing Is a reclamation of the rave scene.

Mm-hmm.

Almost like a reclamation of the party scene in terms of, I still want to do the party. I still want to go to the, the, the rave kind— not, not that it's a rave atmosphere, but kind of the, the music, the lights, the whatever. I still want to do that. But when I go to a regular gay party, rave, or whatever, um, house party. I don't know, I— can you tell I'm like so out of touch with that? But I, I will be, um, I will be triggered to use crystal meth, right? Because that's where I used to use it. So this sounds like to me as a reclamation of that, a way to, a way to get that need met, but in a really safe and healing, in a healing way. You're going to get healing. Um, so that's what I'm hearing first. Does that, does that sound, does that resonate with you? Is that okay to say?

Yeah, it is. And actually, when I first discovered this embodied conscious dance practice 7 years ago, it was an absolute revelation because in my 20s until my early 30s, I was a massive raver, a huge clubber. I took loads of recreational drugs, and I'm not just talking about a Friday night. Every week. I'm talking about Thursday to Monday, okay? No sleep, all of the drugs. I mean, proper, proper hardcore party monster and all of the drugs, right? And so eventually I had to stop that. It just wasn't sustainable. My health started to suffer, and it was a long road out of that world into now what I would call the world of embodiment, spirituality, healing, and transformation. Um, and I subsequently, yeah, went on to train as a therapist, but When I left that world of, of clubbing and raving, I lost something that I realized was so integral and important to my life, which was music and dancing and being together with people who, uh, were what I thought of at the time were in joy. But now I realize, you know, it wasn't an embodied sort of fully conscious form of joy because it's fueled by drugs. So, you know, it can never be. you know, fully embodied, even though, you know, I had a good time and it was fun. I lost something really important. And it took me another good, uh, um, sort of, yes, 5 years after that to discover ecstatic dance, 5 Rhythms and Movement Medicine. And when I first walked into that space and the music started— and by the way, at Conscious Dance, you have a range of genres of music from classical soul, disco, techno, electronic, um, tribal. There's a whole range, and you go through different sort of flows of movement from fluid and self-expressive to having it and fist pumping in the air. So anyway, when I got into this space, um, and the dance music start part started, the techno bit, my heart cracked open in a way. I started to absolutely sob from my soul because I realized that, oh my God, I can do this. I can dance in daylight with people that have their eyes open, that are looking into my eyes, seeing me, loving me, appreciating me, wanting me to be there. No one is bumping into me and spilling a drink on me. Um, nobody's giving me a dirty look like, who does she think she is? Like what I call the gay cold shoulder. Um, which often happens in those spaces. And I go to bed with a smile on my face and no hangover in the morning. It was a revelation. Um, and so yeah, I love the phrase. It's reclaiming, I suppose, that part of us. Pleasure medicine is not a rave. It's not a party. It's very much a, a journey. Uh, it's sort of like half workshop, half dance. So there's like facilitation, embodiment exercises, there's practices. where I'm guiding people how to relate to the person in front of them. Intimate touch practices, fully clothed. There's nothing sort of naked in my workshops at the moment.

Thank you.

Um, and, you know, so it's sort of half workshop, half facilitation, and then we go into the 90-minute, um, free dance. Now I do bring in a lot of dance music because I'm a massive techno music fan, you know, melodic techno, um, heart-centered disco. So there's, there's a lot of music to really have a good dance to, um, and it really feeds that part of us that we feel that we lose when we come out of the clubbing scene.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I can imagine you can't— like, if, if I were to come to Pleasure Medicine, you couldn't just throw me out on the dance floor and say, go for it, right? You have to really educate people first and get them comfortable, I guess, with one another too, right?

That's right.

That sounds very vulnerable.

Yeah, there's— so, you know, it depends on where you are in your journey when you come to this kind of thing. So I've been doing it for years. I'm very comfortable turning up and just letting my freak flag fly. But when I, I was not like that when I first started. And, you know, over the years I've seen a lot of different types of people in these spaces. And I recognize that some people coming into this are gonna be totally green. It's gonna be totally new. They might think, oh my God, what the fuck is this? This is like totally hippie, or this is like some cult, or like, and I really want to break down those assumptions and ideas that people have of this kind of thing, because it's really not that. But yeah, there's a lot of vulnerability because, you know, as, um, gay men, we, we haven't learned how— we haven't actually been given the space in the world often, most of us, to really be our true selves. You know, think about being gay as a young boy.

Mm-hmm.

You know, your first sort of thoughts are, I'm wrong, there's something wrong with me, I'm not right. And then society especially growing up in the '80s for me with the, with the AIDS epidemic, you know, that messaging around gay sex was just so damning. Um, so yeah, coming into a space where there's less people, there's less noise, and that feeling of like, right, okay, gosh, yeah, people are really seeing me, they're really sort of able to witness me— there's a lot of vulnerability, nerves, and fear that come up around that. And I totally understand that feeling.

Yeah.

So my job as the facilitator is to create This warm, encasing environment where, to the best of my ability, I create a space of safety, encouragement, respect, kindness, love. And that's all done through the facilitation practices. And what's really amazing is, you know, from my position to watch everything unfold, is to see the men in these sessions, some of them go from looking very awkward and, um, like out of place and sort of like not knowing how to sort of move their body. That would be me. Right, throughout the evening or even throughout a couple of sessions, you know, this could take time. This could take like 6, coming back 6 times to really start to feel comfortable in it. Some people get it straight away, but for some people it's longer. But to witness these guys going from not knowing how the hell to be in that space, to seeing them blossom into their own unique sexiness and sensuality. And when I talk about sexiness, I'm not talking about the muscles on the body, or the way the face is, or the way that, that we look. Sexiness is an internal essence that expresses energetically when we are truly discovering who we are inside. And I've seen people swaying like this on the dance floor. Like, there's nothing like particularly that you would look at and say, oh, that's physically like amazing dancing. But when somebody is like just truly in that, in their flow, it could be a movement as simple as that, and it's the most attractive, sexy thing.

Mm-hmm.

On the flip side of that, You could be spinning and twirling and prancing around like a fairy, like I do. And if that's embodied and truthful, it can be the most, in quotes, you know, I'm trying to drop these terms, but it could be the most masculine-looking thing because it's embodied and it's truthful and it's real.

Right.

So these ideas of like masculine and feminine being very sort of one-layered, like, oh, if you're flouncing around, then you're feminine, or if you're still, then you're masculine. No, that's just such a load of nonsense. Um, in pleasure medicine, we're letting go of all of that. And we're understanding that there are so many qualities and essences within us that want to be expressed that have been so locked down. Um, and like I said, you know, that can take time, it can take multiple sessions, or, you know, a lifetime of practice. But yeah, the vulnerability is a real thing. Um, and dance is actually very natural, I think, to every human being. Ever since human beings have existed, we've come together to dance around fires and chant and sing. as a way of being together and healing and transforming. But the society that we live in now puts dancers and musicians and singers and artists up on a pedestal as, oh my God, well, that's for the special ones, right? But moving your body is your birthright. It's a blueprint and a template that we're all born with. We're born dancing. If you look at a baby coming out of the, out of the woman's womb at birth, it's, it's moving its body. And a baby is in constant spontaneous movement, right?

Yeah.

that we're supposed to move our bodies.

Yeah.

Um, and each of us has a unique expression of that, but we're just so scared to do it. And I think especially in the gay scene, my experience anyway growing up was that any form of joy or delight or, you know, um, a bigger self-expression was actually considered sacrilege. It's like, oh God, like camp, feminine, don't do that. Or it's sort of fetishized as, oh, the fun one, the camp one, the queenie one, you know. And it's like, it— that messaging is so damaging, I think, to, to, to put us in those categories and those boxes. So I really want to clear that. And it's interesting having this conversation with you today because this evening I'm going out to a club for a friend's birthday.

Hmm.

And this is not my scene at all anymore, but it's an all-male, very much a circuit party vibe called Roast.

Okay.

Um, I'm going to show up for my friend. It's a good friend of mine. Um, and it's going to be interesting because I'm going to treat it as an experiment to see, you know, can I bring pleasure medicine to that space? Can I be in my authentic beingness in a space like that? Or is the energy of that space just sort of categorically not welcoming it? Like, can I—

Yeah.

Can I be myself without editing and changing myself? And is that going to be accepted? Is it going to be welcomed? Is it going to be rejected? So I'm sort of taking it as an undercover research project, seeing as I'm going anyway. I'll probably just stay an hour or two and then come home. Or I might be able to bring my pleasure medicine to the space and sort of sprinkle a bit of the delight and the magic around. We'll see. We'll see what happens. I'll be reporting back on my Instagram tomorrow if anyone wants to find out.

Yeah, I hear that. Maybe they'll all just clear out and make a circle around you and just watch you in the middle.

Hopefully. I'll definitely own it if that happens.

Right. Yes, I'm sure you will. Circuit party. That's what I was trying to say earlier.

Yeah.

I'm gonna— yeah, I feel out of touch. Anyway, so many things, so many things, so many directions we could go into.

Absolutely.

But I want to say, for you who are struggling with untangling meth and sex, um, and then you, you, you, you're having trouble doing that, so you don't have sex, um, because you don't want to be triggered, um, you are traumatized by the exposure you had to sex and to men. during your meth scene. Um, there's things that we have talked about on this podcast to do, like mindful meditate— mindful masturbation.

Wow.

Um, you know, trying to get back in touch with your body, taking a break from porn, you know, finding someone to kind of practice intimacy with. All of that is great, but that's going to take you a lot longer than I've— this is my opinion, that's going to take you a lot longer than getting out on this dance floor and moving your body. That's going to be very much getting you to where you want to be so much faster and deeper and guided. You know, you're not left on your own on a bed trying to mindfully masturbate. You don't know what you're doing, right? You actually have somebody guiding you through this. This is kind of like what I say, the difference between, um, you know, like 20 years of talk therapy and one night with ayahuasca, right? You, you, you— it's like you open up so fast and you accomplish so much, and it's in this really deep way. Well, I feel like what you're listening to here is— don't, don't discount it. Don't, don't think it is hippie and hippie-dippy and all the words that, that Gary used, is that— I feel like you get out on that dance floor and you're making eye contact with other men and you're conscious touching and you're dancing and you're getting that energy moving, you're going to heal so much so fast and get, get you to the place where you can experience intimacy again. And, and this is not, by the way, for those of you— I can, I can kind of hear it in the back of my mind. Like, there's so many of you that still want the dark, the, the piggy sex, right? You want the leather, the fetish, you want the fisting, you want the, the pits and the sweat and the, you know, whatever. You want all that stuff too. And you're thinking that's separate from this, but it's not. This is foundational to that.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you've listened to my podcast on sober kink and fetish, it requires intimacy, vulnerability, communication. It requires all those skills that you're going to need. And you can get that through conscious dance. Is that all good?

100%. I really love what you just said. Because it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You know, one of the, one of the things I'm really interested in is how, is how our kinks, fetishes, and fantasies are actually powerful gateways into psychological realization and healing and transformation. And how actually a lot of those fantasies are a way of us trying to process trauma that we've been through. You know, I'm going through quite a powerful process at the moment of exploring one of my kinks and fantasies, and this huge realization that it's completely— it's complete Psychological 101. It's like pure daddy issues. And this is a fantasy that's been playing out my whole life, really. Um, and, you know, what you said about, about the fast sort of fast-tracking, uh, healing and transformation with dance, I think is absolutely true.

Yeah.

I love talk therapy. I've done talk therapy, right? I have been a talk therapist. I think it's so important to connect the dots and create the understanding in the conscious mind. I think it's actually the first level of healing, but so many people stop there and then they don't bring that down into the physical body. And it's actually in the physical body where the deepest healing and transformation is available. And, you know, just to take it away from the hippie-dippy spiritual stuff and actually to a proper scientific level, what neurological science is finding now is that— and this has been around for a while anyway, but, you know, they're finding more and more as, as we evolve and develop— that there is a neural circuitry that isn't just living in the brain, it's living in the body. So our heart— and you can go Google this, this is proper, proper scientific stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Our heart and our gut, our entire gut system has a neural circuitry inside it and around it. That means that there are neurons that carry actual memories around your heart and around your gut And as far as we know, throughout the rest of the body. So when they say, uh, in the famous book The Body Keeps the Score, or, you know, muscle memory, or trauma lives in the body, it's absolutely true. Um, and, you know, if you think about what conscious dance is doing, it's connecting you at the deepest level, not only to the emotions within you, but, you know, moving that body, moving that fascia, moving the ligaments, uh, and, and the muscles. Um, so I've had some powerful experiences where, you know, of course I've had a wave of emotion just come out of nowhere, releasing through my body as I dance. Um, and, you know, of course a space like what I'm holding is, you know, I'm a trauma-informed practitioner, um, and I have assistance, you know, if anything comes up. I'm not really too focused on uh, that space being for directly trauma healing, because that's not actually what I want Pleasure Medicine to be about. Um, but it provides a space where you— because I believe that you can heal through joy and delight and magic and creativity and play, as well as the sort of deep shadow work. So, you know, what I hope is if any addicts are coming along to Pleasure Medicine as part of their process, that they're getting professional outside help. as well to support them, because I am not a chemsex specialist. I'm an embodiment specialist and a sexologist. So, um, yeah, that's just the one thing I would sort of recommend if people are coming to that kind of thing and it's going to bring up stuff for you. Yes, there is support there, but you also want to be getting your professional help outside of that.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, the physical, you know, embodiment— it's one of those words that's always flying around over the last decade.

Right.

Um, and I always struggled to really actually know what it means. Um, and I don't really still actually— I use it in my copy, but in terms of like the wider, um, for a wider understanding, I don't know what it means. I know what it means for me, and I encourage anyone out there that is using words like spirituality, healing, embodiment, you really have to figure out what Do you mean? What does that mean for you? Because embodiment means something different for me than it will for you, Dr. Dallas, and it will mean something different for everybody out there listening. So one of the things that I'm— I sort of introduce in Pleasure Medicine is, okay, so embodiment, spirituality, healing, transformation. What do you mean? What do you want to get from that? And how do you know it's working? So how do we know that our embodiment practices are working if we don't know what the result is? What do we want to get from it?

Right?

So for me, I'll share with you what embodiment means for me. Embodiment to me is deep listening to the signals that my body gives me around what's right and wrong for my life. Okay? Really direct definition.

Yeah.

So part of that journey for me is actually learning to listen to my body. Now, because I've had childhood trauma, I have had to work through disassociation and being unembodied and not really feeling my physical, um, cues and signals. So, so how do I know it's working? Well, I can feel my body, I can feel the signals, and then I'm making shifts and pivots and changes to, to make a different choice, to do a different behavior, or to go into a different pattern. So there's direct evidence, right? And I've seen direct evidence of that over the last years as I've come out of Sex addiction. I'm not choosing just anybody to hook up with. I'm being very intentional about who I hook up with. Am I perfect? No. Do I come out of it and go back to old habits? Yes, because I think old habits do die hard.

Yes.

If I'm stressed or activated, I go right back to some old loops and patterns and structures, and I'm compassionate and soft with myself, and then I recommit to my path of embodiment. So totally gone off on a tangent. Can't remember what the question was. Well, let me—

yeah, well, let me pick up there because what, what I see is most of us, we're never— we were never in touch with, as you said, our internal essence. We were never in our body before we got to meth because, like you said earlier, You, you can't— you're not allowed to be gay, or there's something wrong with that. Not even just being gay. Maybe there's another story you have that I'm not smart enough, or I'm too much, or my opinion doesn't matter.

So I'm too quiet, right?

So whatever that is, you have separated that. That, that's where shame is, because you've rejected that part of you. That part of you that is supposedly too quiet, or that part of you that is gay. You've rejected that part of you, which is where shame comes into play and disconnects you from your authentic, true, integrated self. So then you get into meth and crystal meth, and there's something about crystal meth that fills in all those, those holes. temporarily. It fills in all the holes temporarily, and you feel integrated. You don't feel too quiet anymore. You can speak up, you know.

You're—

you, you don't feel like it's wrong to be gay anymore because you and these guys are doing all the gay stuff that you think that is gay stuff, you know, sexually. So anyway, it fills in all that. And so that's what we get addicted to, is for a moment or a week, whatever, you know, for a bender, We are embodied.

Yeah.

Falsely embodied.

Yeah.

Right. And so then when you come out on the other side and you quit crystal meth, and then you're left with— you have, you have recovery programs, you have me or whatever, you have people to help you get past crystal meth, and maybe you do a little bit of repair, but what do you do next? Because you're still not integrated. You're still not embodied. You still don't know who your internal essence— what your internal essence is. You don't know yourself. You're still disassociated. And that is the work. Like quitting meth— I've said this a billion times, but quitting meth is easy. The work after, that's the hard part. You are repairing all those years. And so When you say embodiment means you know within your body what's right and what's wrong for me and my life.

Oh.

And these guys are so disconnected from their body, they come out and they get under these less embodied people and programs, and they just follow along And they do what they're supposed to do and what the big book says, and they go along and they don't question anything. And they're just going along with the crowd because they're— they have no embodiment. They're not in touch with their body to know what's right or wrong. Maybe they're triggered and they get in trouble, quote unquote, for being triggered and speaking out against something that they don't like in the program. And that's frowned upon. But that's them almost— there's, there's something in their body saying, this does not resonate with me, you know, this is not in alignment with me. But they're told to ignore it, just like we're told to ignore everything, you know. We're, we're trained in this culture to sit still. Like you were saying, like babies want to dance. We're told to sit fucking still and don't dance. And the same thing here is that we're told Do what you're— do what you're told to do. Don't listen to your body and don't speak up. So what I'm saying is, I said all that to say this is a big advantage of trying pleasure medicine or something, something similar in your area here in, in the States, is that get in touch with what's right and what's wrong for you, not what someone else says is right. Or wrong. Get in that, that practice of tuning into your body. That's real recovery. Like, that's not, I'm a former meth user. That is, I'm becoming the best and highest version of myself. Meth then becomes— you, you mentioned, you commented on this the other day when I said it, but meth is a chapter in your story, not the subtitle of the whole fucking book, which is what many of you are stuck in. Yeah, there's so much more out there for you, so this is a great way to get there.

It's one of the things about— yeah, I'm not here to cast any judgments or point the finger or say this is bad or this is right or this is wrong, um, but because I have a lot of addiction in my family, I've got a lot of experience and sort of inside seeing and witnessing of people moving through addiction or not moving through it. Um, and one of the things about the anonymous programs Um, that I always sort of thought was problematic from the beginning was the standing up and saying, I, I am an alcoholic.

That's right.

On a neurological level, that's right, you know, you're trying to come out of that. On a neuro— on a neurological level, it doesn't make sense to me to keep affirming that that's what you are. And when I saw your piece of content about it's a chapter in the book, it's not the title, I thought that was such an incredible metaphor because Yeah, I just don't think it works to keep owning that. That's sort of your identity. Because it can't be anyone's identity. It's not. It's just not. And one of the things that, like I said, I haven't experienced chemsex addiction myself, although I very easily could have ended up in that world, in the world hanging out in with the afterparties in the clubs. I mean, that was that space that I was in. But I just never really got horny when I took drugs. So it didn't work for me.

Lucky you.

really, really count myself lucky because I think I could have ended up in a very dark place.

Yeah.

Because I have an addictive personality with ADHD and addiction in my family, genetic, whatever, you know, who knows. But, um, with suffering with sex addiction, one of the things that really was a game changer for me was very gently and softly looking at and exploring and analyzing what the addictive compulsive behaviors were trying to give me.

Yes.

And you said something that I absolutely live by and adhere to, and I think you described it so exquisitely, is that for a moment you feel like you're embodied when you take that drug or when you do that thing, whatever it is. And so there is, in some way, a benevolent and clever and loving part of the subconscious that's trying to fill in the gaps and give you and do the thing.

Yeah.

That would make you feel better about yourself. But what the subconscious does is it gets it back to front, upside down and inside out based on the messaging that we have received and that we have given it. So when I looked at my addictive behaviors, I started to go, ah, I can see how that kink or that fetish is me trying to really heal, um, my fractured sense of control. Like, I had a completely out of control childhood with an alcoholic and schizophrenic and, uh, drug addict dad. So it was very manic, very out of control. So then, you know, it makes sense in later life I developed these sexual compulsions where I'm either completely and totally submissive or completely and totally dominant. And but it's playing out in very unhealthy, problematic ways, you know, anonymous sex and people that I don't know and situations I'm suddenly like, what the fuck am I doing here? This is just wrong. But I can't stop doing it. I know it's wrong. I know it's bad and it's not good for me. It's exhausting. I feel terrible. I feel full of shame. And then I'm doing it. for years, right?

Mm-hmm.

When I started to look at this is— and this is just one aspect, there's many other aspects that I've had to look at— but this is your, your, your inner self trying to fix and fill in the gaps and give you A, B, and C, then that's good information. So rather than just trying to stop something and say no to something, What we're then able to do is start to say yes to something else. And I think this is so key in any form of healing a pattern, a habit, a compulsion, or an addiction, is that most people are just finding themselves trying to say no to the thing, just saying no, no, no, no, no, but we're not giving ourselves something else to turn towards. So we're trying to turn away from the dark.

Yeah.

We've got no light to turn towards. So when we look at that ABC, this is the part of me that's trying to fill in those gaps and give me what it is I really need, we can start seeking that in other places, other environments, and with other people. But until we know what those things are, all we're doing is, is just trying to turn away from something. And, and if we don't give ourselves something to say yes to, we're going to be drawn to that thing. Because, you know, look at an addiction, it's It's a loyal— it's loyal, it's always there, it never says no, it never argues with you, it never questions you, right? So you're— of course you're always going to go back to it. It's reliable, you know, it does a reliable job at trying to do what it's doing.

Yeah.

So I hopefully, for as many LGBTQ men out there as possible, I hope that pleasure medicine or something similar could be one of the things that you're saying yes to. One of the things that is in the light that you're going towards. I'm not saying or promising that it could be the whole thing that it could.

It could be.

It's totally changed and transformed my life. 100%. I think it's been one of the main game game changers in in in everything for me. But it's not the only thing. You know, there's I had a therapist. I had a coach. I have friends. I created a community. I created a circle of friends that are incredible and amazing and aligned with my values and my desires and, and wants. Very few of my friends drink alcohol. I don't have any friends that take drugs, you know. Um, I don't have any like majorly, majorly, majorly party friends, but apart from one or two still. So, um, there's lots of other pieces of the puzzle as well. So it could be the big game changer that you're looking for, or it could just be part of the puzzle.

Yes, thank you. Thank you for all that. Um, what you're saying is perfect and needs to be said more often in terms of when men ask me, what do I— how do I get out of this, right? So if they're not too severe, that's the first question I'm going to ask is, what are you getting out of it? And don't tell me sex, because there's something else you're getting out of this, right? Maybe it is intimacy. Maybe it is sex in terms of I get to express myself sexually, like in, in ways that I don't normally. Okay, that's fine too. Whatever it is you're getting out of it, you replace it. Like you're saying, you reclaim it. It's a reclamation of it. So just like with a circuit party or rave, like I still want to do that, but it's triggering for me.

Mm-hmm.

Here's your— here is an alternative. So you're not saying no to, I can't go to circuit parties. You're saying yes to, I'm going to still get what I got out of circuit parties, but in a new, like, intimate, even better way, right?

Yeah.

And, and that's the way— I mean, that to me, that, that is the best way to move forward so that you're not just quitting the substance But as you've mentioned many times, you're rediscovering your joy because you, you have to rediscover joy after meth because you, you think everything's dull and boring and horrible anyway because your, your brain is obliterated, right?

And so— One of the things that I've had to learn is how to have ordinary basic sex. Yeah, that wasn't, um, fueled by excitement and intensity Um, I had, uh, you know, like most gay men, I, I used to use poppers a lot. Um, and, um, it— the intensity and the speed with which that intensity hits, I had to spend time, a long time, and still am doing it. Like, I'm not really saying I'm there or perfect. I still have to, you know what, you know, we have to relearn patience and slowness. Like, if you want a transcendental cosmic sexual experience, Mm-hmm. that's not going to come in like 2 minutes. Like, you're going to be with that person for an hour, 2 hours. Yeah, like, you're going to be resting, you're going to be talking, you're going to be communicating. Um, the thing with the drugs is, boom, you are there, right? You're there, right? That's the illusion, right? And, and because we live in a society, in a world that gives us pretty much everything we want instantly. Yeah, you know, sex has become the same, right? And, and that's, yeah, one of the major learnings for me is like, in a self-pleasure mindful practice or a mindful masturbation practice, sometimes I'm like, oh, how long is it going to take for this to feel good? You know, like, right, right. Even now, like, I'm training as a sexologist, therapist, pleasure person. Even still, like, when I'm here where I am, I still have those moments like, oh God, I have to spend half an hour doing this, right? It's sort of baked into us, that speed.

That's exactly right. Yeah, it's exactly right. I mean, that's, that's the problem when I try to get all my clients to do it is I don't have time for this. Yeah, I'm used to typing into X and, you know, coming in the next 5 minutes.

Yeah, but I will say that when you do commit to that mindful self-pleasure practice, when it opens And when it elevates, and when it hits you, oh my God, there's nothing like it. There's no drug. There's no substance outside of the body that can match. And it may not be as intense. Okay, I'm not talking about an intensity.

Right.

I'm talking about the feeling, the sensation of pleasure, of sensual sexiness and horniness. Right? It may not be as quick and as intense, but that transcendental cosmic expanded feeling is is unmatched. There's there's no there's nothing you can take that's going to create that feeling for you. And when you understand that that was created by the chemicals in my own body, such an empowering feeling. I had an experience with a regular part, a regular sexual partner of mine. We don't even actually. Have penetrative sex. We are just like kissing and doing nipple massage and chest play and masturbation and touch and cuddling. I have experiences with him, and he's also like into tantric stuff, so we're really resonant and aligned and connected. I have experiences with him where he will do something to like my nipples on my chest, and he'll be going for like 10-15 minutes. And I have had experiences where I feel like every cell of my body has come apart in absolute ecstasy and then really come together. And I'm like, whoa, I just like went into another dimension.

Wow.

But that's probably after about like an hour, 90 minutes of play and exploration.

Yeah.

And working through moments of mundanity, of boring, of basic. Right, right. And, and I know that we talk about vanilla sex as something that's sort of actually a negative. But to learn how to get back to just a warm sex, basic, um, maybe a bit boring, a lot boring to what you're used to.

Yeah.

But actually, you know, when you're relating to somebody and you're just laying with somebody, we've got to learn how to reconnect with that tenderness and that sensitivity and the stillness that in our neurology is probably going to feel boring. But over time, you're going to reconnect to that soft sensuality, that warm intimacy, which is one of the things I really focus on in the facilitation part of pleasure medicine. So, um, I'll invite the guys to come into pairs, some beautiful ambient music, gorgeous classical music, really emotive. And they might start back to back, and they're just feeling their spines flowing together and finding rhythm, and they might sort of go back and rest themselves. on the person and then come forward. And it's really simple, it's really simple and really direct. And then I might invite them to come face to face, put the tips of their fingers together and mirror each other's movement. And then I'll invite them if they want to, and it's all an invitation, you don't have to, bring their abdomens together and feel the warmth of the belly against each other, and then chest to chest. And then I might invite them to ask for what they want. So, oh, would you place your hands on my chest? Would you place your hand on my bum? Would you put your hand on my back, on my belly? Would you stroke my chest? You know, and it's all very simple. We're not going into anything sexual. We're staying with sensual. And it's so incredible what you start to find attractive and sexy. It's so amazing and deep what you— what starts to turn you on. Right?

Yeah.

Just stopping, stopping ourselves from going straight into what we're used to and just feeling the hand of a man on your chest.

Yeah.

It can be incredibly moving of, you know, still just having a man rest a hand on my heart. Um, I was at a festival last summer and I started making out with this guy on the dance floor. I was just sort of in my shirt, my shirt was open, I was in my joy, I had my little slutty gay shorts on, and I was just really in my element. Um, and this guy sort of was sort of like, you know, smiling at me and I was like, hi. Um, and I sort of in my more feminine, playful, flowy energy.

You're a fairy. You were a fairy, huh?

I was in my fairy energy. Um, I've also got like a warrior energy and a king energy. It just depends on the music and my mood, right? And that's one of the things I like to play with in pleasure medicine. We all have that, those different capacities. Anyway, so this guy was looking at me and I was in my element. I was like, yeah, I know I'm looking good. And I'm sort of just really confident. And he sort of comes up to me and he goes, oh, you look really hot. And I was like, oh, thanks. And anyway, we started kissing. He placed a hand on the base of my spine. So he, he was really in his sort of trying to move away from masculine, so he was sort of in his king energy. He was like in his grounded, strong— he was taller than me and bigger than me. He placed a hand on the On the base of my spine, and I burst into tears.

Wow.

He got it. He, he was into sort of this stuff, and he just, he pulled my head into his chest, and he was like, it's okay, it's okay, you can do that. And I've only just met this person. Wow.

Wow.

There was just something so— oh, it brings tears to my eyes. There was something so Uh, just— Words escaped me. It was just so powerful. This, this hand, I just felt like he had me. He was holding me. He was— there was something protective and tender, extremely— I'll use the word masculine, but not in a— not— I don't mean macho or bravado or alpha. I'm talking about— so for me, masculinity is tender, it's soft power, it's holding, it's grounded, it's centered. Femininity is spontaneity, it's flow, it's being able to shift and pivot and change based on what's happening. So for me, masculine and feminine are qualities rather than the way that somebody looks or speaks or holds themselves or moves.

Right.

So anyway, I just felt this authenticity in him and I just melted and I cried. And then we went off, um, outside the tent, just next to the bushes, and we laid down on the grass and cuddled and kissed. And it was so tender, it was so beautiful. And just from a simple hand placed on the body.

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. And that is never an experience you're going to get with crystal meth.

That is an experience of the heart.

That is that. That is that.

It's a pure embodied— yeah, why it happened in that moment, I don't know. It was just right. He was right. I was right. We were connected, there was a chemistry. But having an experience like that takes vulnerability. I mean, I cried, I couldn't hold it back.

Right.

But I didn't turn away, I didn't escape, I didn't leave.

Right.

I just— something in me just went, just be seen.

Yeah.

Could have gone either way. He could have gone, oh my God, you absolute freak, what are you crying into my chest for? Which would have been totally understandable.

Right.

I totally would have been like, absolutely sorry, goodbye.

Right, right.

Right. But, you know, it takes that vulnerability and that, that, um, um, openness to, to be ourselves. Again, that's not something I 100% of the time have. I was out last night with a friend and, um, I bumped into somebody in the bar that I hadn't seen for a while, and he was with another friend who I thought was quite sexy. And I went into my total, like, like, oh my God, he probably doesn't fancy me, and I don't know if I fancy him. Do I? Is he handsome? Is he not handsome? And I went into this, like, total meltdown. And I just lost myself, right? And then I just couldn't gather myself together. And then afterwards I was like, interesting, what was it about that guy?

Yeah.

About that energy. And so I think when you're coming out of addiction and compulsive behavior and you're trying to find a new way, you've also got to start to explore and, um, sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together of why, what, what, why is that happening to me and what's going on there and how can I you know, be soft and compassionate with myself when I slip up, but also be very firm with myself when, when I have slipped up and to get back on track, so to speak. Right, right. Constant evolving journey, isn't it?

Yes, it is. And this, this guy— so I, I love what you're— I love, love, love what you're saying about masculinity, in that this whole fucking mask for mask Oh, that is so toxic in this community. Um, masculinity, you've said, is embodied truthful and real.

Yeah, tender, vulnerable.

And they're vulnerable, honest, right? How many men— I'm asking the audience here— have you met lately who wears their ball cap backwards and acts like a straight man, but who's embodied, truthful, real, tender. I mean, you have to— these are the, these are the qualities. That's true masculinity. And this man that walked up to you and put his hand on you, the small of your back, my guess is this was a man who's so comfortable in his skin.

Mm-hmm.

And so in touch with his body and himself That, that is masculinity.

Yeah.

That is what we're looking for. Um, and you— it sounds like you, you needed to feel safe at the time, um, and held, and, you know, the— I mean, whatever else is going on. But that's great. I, I just wanted to have a side note on that. So thank you for bringing that up, is that, yeah, you know, you wanna— you wanna define masculinity, if you wanna look for masculinity, those are the qualities.

Right. And so, so when gay men say things like no femme, right, or masc for masc, or I'm a masculine guy, or I'm looking for masculine guys, I don't think that they actually really know what they mean. And I think we need to get granular and specific, right?

Yeah.

So I think what a lot of gay men mean by masculine is macho. is bravado, is a performative alpha.

Straight acting.

Like roleplay, a straight acting type thing. But for me, that's not masculinity. That is macho alpha straight acting. So, and then you look at, well, why? So let's explore why those things turn you on, right? It's probably that you've got some internalized homophobia, some internalized misogyny, or you've got daddy issues like me. So, uh, again, like, you've got to be willing to explore it. Like, I get it if you've got preferences and certain things turn you on and certain things arouse you and certain things are erotic to you, right?

Right.

But in terms of those things, I think we all have a much more expanded palette, a much wider, um, scope of colors for what turns us on than we allow ourselves to experience, and we get very locked into just one or two things, right? I used to be an absolute total bottom for most of my life. And I met who was my second boyfriend. And he was a total bottom. And I had to Google on our second date because we were going to have sex, probably, I had to Google and download an ebook called Top 10 Tips for Topping. I had to learn how to become a top.

Interesting.

And when I did that, I was like, oh my God, oh, this is amazing, this is incredible.

Yeah, right.

And turns out I could do it quite well because I knew how— I was a professional bottom, right? Good for you. So never would I have ever considered being a top had I not sort of fallen in love with somebody and sort of felt like I had to. Um, and I'm so grateful for that because it opened up a whole new spectrum of something that I had zero idea that I enjoyed that I liked, that I was good at. So now, like, genuinely 100% versatile. Depends on my mood, depends on the day, depends on the guy and the energy, but I can totally flip from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Yeah.

And I think it's a real shame for so many of us to keep ourselves locked in one sphere of, of what turns us on. Um, and a lot of it comes down to this idea of masculinity and femininity, and I really want to try to I understand why we use those words, but they don't really mean anything. You know, it's a little bit like the word energy. When somebody says, oh, there was a funny— there was a weird energy in the room. No, what, what you mean is I was uncomfortable in the room, right? That person had a dark energy. No, no, I didn't like that person, right? No, let's get really specific with what we mean. In sexology, we call it clean language. Um, so, you know, language. Get clear on the values that, that you have and what you're looking for. And own it, but also expand them as well, you know. Right. And it's a lot of work to do this stuff.

Right. And you don't have to adopt the values of the gay— the mainstream gay culture and what you see and what's accepted by them either.

Yeah. And, and, you know, I think through doing conscious dance like pleasure medicine, one of the things that you— I think one of the first things you realize and learn in that space is, wow, people look really fucking hot when they are authentically expressing themselves, right? And I just want to get a quote up from Gabrielle Roth, who is the creator of Five Rhythms, which is one of the practices that I've devoted my life to. And she says, when we dance, we wake up, we get down and juicy with ourselves, we have fun, and we forget all the heavy shit we carry around.

Yeah.

In the dance, we get real, we get free, and we get over ourselves. Movement kicks ass when— and this is the bit— when you truly surrender to your own rhythm, you look so cool, so mysterious, and so seductive the way deep down You really want to look but don't trust that you do. Yeah, yeah, that is—

that's it.

Yeah, like I said, you don't have to be following a choreography or, yeah, dancing what you think is good dancing. Yeah, when you— when it's real and it's true and you get into that space, you honestly— everyone is sexy to me in, in the dance.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, it evens the playing field too because As gay men, you know, we have such a hierarchy, you know, of what's sexy and what isn't. Am I allowed in? Am I not? You know, I went to a, a gay and sober conference, and I was amazed at the cliques of the hot guys. The same, the same type of guys had to hang out together, you know, and there's no— there wasn't seeming to be any kind of reaching out to Like at the pool, you know, oh, I see you may be embarrassed or shy or not comfortable here because we have these perfect bodies in Speedos, but let me invite you over because we're all here, we're all queer, you know, we're all sober, so let's meld in together. I didn't see any of that. And to be honest, I mean, you know, I also didn't try to do it. I just avoided the whole thing.

Yeah.

I just avoided the whole thing anyway. But what I did, I did do a lot of watching. And so in— it sounds like in the dance environment, in this space, there is no, I'm sexier than you, I'm muscular than you, I have this body, that body. There's none of that going on, which is so liberating. It's gotta be so liberating.

And so one of the things that I do to make sure that that isn't encouraged or something that happens is that the partner work and the, the working groups, um, is done on a random basis. So, um, so I get people moving around the space and then it's freeze, and then whoever you're closest to, that's your partner.

Ah.

So it's not choose your partner. So it's not, oh, I want that hot guy, I want that hot guy.

Right.

And so then there are— there might be other ways where I give everyone a number at the beginning of the night, and it's okay, number 1s find number 1s, number 2s find number 2s. Or I might give some playing cards, right? Jokers find each other, kings, queens, 1s and 2s. So you just like looking around, um, for whoever that is.

Yeah.

And then you'll swap cards, and then the next practice— so it's totally random. So there's no, you know, cliquing or deciding who, who you want to work with. If you want to chat somebody up at the end, afterwards, you go for your life. I hope you do. I hope you, you meet, you find romance. I hope you find sensual connections. I also hope you make friends and find brothers and soul family, creative collaborations, right?

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. That's, that's reassurance, I think, for, for people like me, you know, because I— the thought of dancing in a group of gay men is Fucking terrifying to me.

Yeah.

I'll be honest with you, it's terrifying. I would— it will take, it will take me a lot to get there. Um, I want to. I'd see the value of it for sure. Um, I think that there is this great level of healing that's awaiting for me. It's awaiting me to get out on the dance floor and to look somebody in the eyes and not have the pressure of dicking them down, you know, which is, you know, anybody I meet, that's what they want. Right? Let me beat them up and let me choke them and let me, you know, all the other stuff, which is fine. I mean, I can get into that too. But it's just so overdone. You know, but I, it's just, yeah. So the thought of— I'm glad that you're bringing this up because— It alleviates a lot of my nervousness about comparing and being rejected. Rejected. I have a huge, huge, huge rejection wound that's there. Um, and so I'm glad that you brought that up. And it will—

yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of the ways I also support that is I bring it up at the beginning, like in the opening circle. You know, I'm, I'm, you know, I have a way of running things that's quite— it's very deep, profound, but it's also quite light, and I've got a sense of humor that comes with it as well. And so I'm not running away from the themes and topics and subjects that are just, just there in the room. Like, so one of the first things I'll say is like, look, when gay men and queer men get together in a space, there's gonna be an energy, right?

Yeah.

We are naturally geared into sort of looking around, who's here, who's the hot guy, who do I fancy, right? That's here. Right? We've got that down. We've practiced that so fucking well. We don't need any more practice of that. So let's open our hearts. Let's open ourselves into a new way of being. And then the practices and exercises are designed, yeah, to get you seeing deeper into the person in front of you, feeling the energy of the person.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's— this is, this is deep. And I think any of you listening, any of you, no matter if you're enjoying sober sex right now or not, you can really, really benefit from and get some such healing from this. I know I can't speak from experience because I haven't done it yet. But I have been involved in similar, similar things. And I just know that this, what you're talking about is exactly what we need. So by the way, speaking of exactly what we need, looking at your website, and I want everybody to go there and support Gary. The web— the website name is pleasuremedicine.co.uk, is that right?

Pleasuremedicine.co.uk.

Okay, so listen, Gary's devoted to helping LGBTQ men, like I said, unlock their pleasure centers. Soften shame, rediscover joy, rediscover intimacy, rediscover sensuality. Those are what we all want after meth. That is what we're all seeking. So this could be such a, a tremendous way, um, to heal. So I think we need to get you over here.

Yeah, I would love to bring pleasure medicine on tour. I'm up for it.

We need to get you over here. But if you go to the website, there's question, you know, what is pleasure medicine? He answers you. Who is it for? What to expect? Um, you know, there's also, of course, you can— I guess you can sign up. Nope, you can book tickets, all the stuff. Um, go to Gary's website, Pleasure Medicine, and, um, an evening of sensuality and dance for LGBTQ men. You can also join a queer community on WhatsApp, which I just did joined that before we got the, uh, the call. Um, yeah, wow, what a deep dive into something that I believe is missing from our healing, our recovery. This is missing. This is needed. This is exactly what you guys— what we need, what we need as a community. So Gary, what did I miss today? What did I not ask that you would— you wish I had have asked?

What did you— Oh my God.

Say that you wish you could have said?

No, I think, I think it covered everything, like such an amazing deep dive. Um, it just flowed. I know that this is aligned and it's from the heart. It's just, you know, I've hustled and grinded in my life with lots of different businesses and projects and entrepreneurial things or whatever, and nothing has flowed as easily as pleasure medicine. It's just popping off. I think it's going to grow into a massive movement. This is not just an event that I'm running, it's a movement and a revolution.

Right.

And I hope I take it all over the world. I hope other people want to do similar. And the only thing I'd say is if you are somebody listening that is yearning and hungry for something new and different, then— and you're based in London at the moment— come or find something near you. There's Five Rhythms and ecstatic dance and movement medicine all over the world. So just Google.

Yeah.

Um, what I would say is give it a go. If you don't like it, nothing is lost. You'll just feel a little awkward for 5 minutes, and you can leave, right? There's nothing locking you in. There's nothing forcing you to stay. Give it a go. My guess is you'll absolutely love it, and it will be part of something that changes your life for the better.

Yes, thank you. Give it a go, he says. Give it a go. So just Google conscious dance, ecstatic dance, 5 rhythms. Um, Google those things near me. Um, and, and find something and go. Like, there's a— there's, um, there's some ecstatic dance that's near me, and it's free if you volunteer for them for one, one dance. You volunteer and then you get the next— you get it free for the next time or something like that. Beautiful.

And yeah, it doesn't have to be queer, it doesn't have to be gay. Those spaces are completely open. You know, the ones that I actually go to as a practitioner are not gay, they're not queer, and I Well loved and totally accepted and with beautiful open arms. And, you know, the thing is, in those spaces, sexuality and gender, it just sort of all melts away in the beauty of the dance. So if there's not a queer one or a gay one near you, because I don't think they're that common, go to just an ordinary open one.

Right.

Because it's not, you know, these kinds of things are totally conscious and totally heart-open. There's no judgment there of that kind of thing.

So yeah, yeah, good, good advice. Good word. Thank you, Gary, for sharing with us. This was really good. Really, really great.

Yeah, I feel really heart-opened. Thank you so much. And your work is good, so profoundly important. Really grateful for you and your heart.

And yours too. And yours too. I'm grateful for you. All right, guys, hope you enjoyed that. And don't forget the study guide. And if you have any questions for Gary, If you want to join the conversation, you can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify. You can send us a text. That link is in the show notes as well. Don't forget, if you send a text, by the way, I cannot see your number, so I cannot reply to you. So don't send a text and ask a question. So there you go. All right. See you next week. Bye.