EP 3:1 Rebuilding Life Post-Treatment with MartijnPodcast
In this episode of The Aftermath Podcast, host Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal‑meth user turned recovery coach, interviews Martijn, co‑founder of the Dutch Herstel Collectief (Recovery Collective). The conversation explores the steep challenges that people face when transitioning from formal addiction treatment back into everyday life, especially the high relapse rates for chemsex‑related crystal meth use among MSM. Martijn explains how the Herstel Collectief fills a critical after‑care gap by offering volunteer‑run, one‑on‑one coaching programs (typically three months, 10‑12 sessions) that focus on structure, purpose, community, sexuality, and identity. They also coordinate with Dutch public sexual‑health clinics (GGD) that provide free, drop‑in chemsex counseling, a model largely absent in the United States. The duo discusses practical recovery tools: establishing daily routines, using opposite‑behavior techniques from DBT, and building sober social networks through community events, round‑tables, and partnerships with queer‑focused groups. Funding challenges are addressed through a newly created foundation and a crowdfunding campaign to subsidise coaching for people who cannot afford it. Throughout, both hosts stress the importance of collective support, reducing stigma, and learning from European models to improve US chem‑sex recovery services.
Chapters
You go to treatment, you're in this protective space, you feel good about yourself, you're, you know, everything's chugging along and then you get spit right back into the same environment, the same people, you know, the same app and all that kind of stuff. Um, the, the transition is so, is usually so rocky, isn't it?
It is an understatement. It is, uh, it's very, it's a very tough look. You are, you're on, there are people who are taking care of you. There are people in, in, in that.
The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex. So if you feel triggered to use, stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to The Aftermath. I'm Dallas Bragg. Thank you for tuning in today. As if you listen to the podcast this season, season 2, or last season, season 2, you'll hear me talk a lot about how much we have to learn from the Europeans and other, actually not just Europeans, other countries, Australia, even some Asian countries about how to treat, to talk about chemsex. And, you know, we just, for one thing, it seems to me that the word chemsex is not even recognized in a lot of the people that I'm talking to these days in the US. Much less knowing how to treat it. So the reason I want to feature as many people and organizations as possible who are doing the work of chemsex recovery is so that we can learn from them. And if you're listening and what you've experienced maybe in the US hasn't worked, let's tune in and look at what they're doing in other countries. So today, I have my friend Martine, right?
Is that it?
Martine. That's it, right? Martine. Martine! Ah! Martine. Ah, man. We even practiced. Martine. Martine. With the Hairstyle Collectif.
Yes.
For that.
Okay. Very good. Very good. I'm proud of you.
One out of 2. But the Hairstyle Collectif stands for Recovery Collective. Right? Yeah.
Correct.
Um, and so I'm really excited. I've been talking with, with Martijn for a very long time, um, on and off, and we've met here and there, and we follow each other on social media, and we share each other's stuff, and, and, and really try to promote each other. And, you know, I, I just love how in, in Europe, I'm— this, it's a community. It's a chemsex community of people. And it's so— there's so much reciprocity and there's a spirit of generosity that I have found just very welcoming and healing for me too. And I don't know what it is. It must be me, but I don't get that in my own stomping grounds. But I really appreciate you and everyone around you, and I'm looking forward to Well, as we record this, the Antwerp Chemsex Conference hasn't happened, but when this comes out, it will have happened and you and I will have been at dinner together. So—
Exactly. Looking very much forward to that.
Me too. Okay. All right. So let's get down to business here. Can you tell us about the Herstel Collectief? I'm just going to keep saying that. A recovery collective.
Yeah. Yes. Thank you, Dallas, for having me and for this amazing introduction. Very stoked to to to be able to to be on the podcast and to to talk about Herschel Collective and about our own experiences, and happily to share how things in Europe work in the Netherlands in specifically for me. And I totally agree with you on the small but growing community we have with people that are publicly speaking out about chemsex and about. Problems around Chemsex, and I am very happy to be part of that and support you. And thank you for your support for us as well. We're just starting, so this is very welcome. So thank you again. Great. Hairstyle Collective. Yes, we are 2 coaches, me and Jeroen, and we have gone through our own issues around chemsex. For me personally, it was about 10 years ago, 2015, '16, '17. Um, and I got out of there with help of therapy and, and programs here in the Netherlands. Um, in 2021, I started giving back as a chemsex counselor at the NHS here in the Netherlands. It's a volunteering position where we counsel people that come in with questions about chemsex, about their use, about harm reduction. And we have one-on-one conversations there with people that come in. Doing that for a number of years, we started realizing there's a missing link in care around this. topic. We also experienced that personally, but listening to all of the people that we have been talking to over the last year has confirmed that feeling. We're sent home after going through care. We go to an addiction clinic, we get therapy, we are done with the substance, we are being sent home and Pretty much left to our own own devices. And last year, we were at a dinner, me and Jeroen and some other people that are working in the in the same field. We were at a dinner, and I I heard a story about the the fifth person that died last winter. Chemsex related. Not sure what actually happened because the news doesn't. Tell you exactly what happened in these cases, but these were people that were known to be in problematic campsites situations. It was the fifth Amsterdam small community, small small small small city. I got very frustrated, and from that moment we actually decided to to do something about this issue, and we. Both of us did a coaching course. I stopped working where I was working at the moment, at that moment, and I decided to change my total perspective into coaching and specifically coaching aftercare. So Herstel Collectief is offering one-on-one coaching for people that come out of addiction. care, chemsex-related, could also be alcohol, could also be behavioral problems.
Oh, okay.
We also assist people that have issues with their mental health and, uh, gay community stress. So specific topics that our queer community is dealing with. And we focus there aftercare. We also have some programs where we can help a person, uh, Covering the time between the referral to the start of the clinic, but we can only do that under under professional guidance. So we only do that with like the first responder or the the general practitioner of the person. And next to that, we have tailored coaching programs. For instance, harm reduction people. I have a couple at the moment. That want to stop using chems, but their use is not problematic, but they want to find a way out of this. So I'm helping them, I'm coaching them for 6 months, for once, and I see them once a month, for instance. But our core business is one-on-one coaching right after care.
Okay. Okay.
Okay.
Thank you. Great. Um, so can you tell, for those of us who don't know, you mentioned that in 2021 you became a chemsex counselor for the NHS. Can you, for those of us who don't know, what is the NHS?
Yeah, we have, uh, the National Health Services. Um, uh, in the UK it's called NHS. So, uh, that's why I use that phrase. Uh, it's a, it's a national health service that is also, uh, the system is also pretty much the same in the Netherlands. And, um, what they do is they offer free care for people that are, that need it. And very famously in Amsterdam, we have the STI clinic or the sexual health clinic, as I should name it.
Yeah.
Um, and in 2016, already 10 years ago, some of my colleagues decided to set up the Chemsex counseling there.
Okay.
Because the nurses and doctors at the STI clinic, uh, increasingly got questions about Chemsex. Mm-hmm. And they weren't really equipped how, how to, they didn't really know how to deal with it. They weren't really equipped. So they came up with this, uh, volunteering-based, uh, lived experience, uh, counseling option. And that's what I've been doing since 21. And from that point on, like I said, you talk to so many people and you start to realize what is going on in the system and that, you know, the things that I've gone through myself are being confirmed by others. And therefore we started Herstel Collectief.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the free counseling, free chemsex counseling, what is, how does that work there? So, 'cause we have nothing like that here. And I'm curious because, you know, I told you beforehand, I'm in the very early stages of creating the Aftermath Foundation, kind of offering the same thing. But so how long can they attend the counseling? That they can, and how often are they there?
Yeah, to, to, to, to put things separately, um, the Chemsex counseling at the NHS, at the GGD in Amsterdam, is something separate from Excel Collectief.
Yes, right.
Um, yeah, but to, to answer your question, um, it's a one-on-one consultation that can take 10 minutes or an hour and a half, depending on the question. A person comes in. Uh, with a question, they're not necessarily being sent or referred. They, it's an open door. They can come in, uh, at their own, uh, and they're coming at their own accord. So it means that they have a question. Um, having no, not needing a referral or, um, making an appointment is lowering the threshold. So it makes it easier for some people to, to step over that moment of, oh my God, I'm going to get help. I'm going to ask for help.
Mm-hmm.
Um, uh, we offer this one-on-one coaching, um, freely. And we also, as we are volunteers, we're not professionals, so we cannot refer somebody necessarily to a clinic or to a, uh, to a, to a therapist, or we can diagnose. The only thing that we do is advise.
Yeah.
And the main questions we answer have to do with harm reduction. Uh, I'm doing chemsex, I noticed that my behavior is changing, am I in a problematic area, or what can I do to contain my use?
Mm-hmm.
That is the main question we get, and average age about 35. And in the Netherlands, the, uh, amount of expats and migrants and people that are new in the Netherlands is over, how do you say that? It's 40% and it's a very high percentage, obviously. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask about that part, the NHS part, just if somebody's listening to this and they want to try to mimic it here, you know, I mean, it doesn't have to be just me, right? I mean, these in other countries, you can get, Where else, maybe somebody can write me and tell me, but maybe in LA and New York or something like that, but where else can you go to an STI clinic and get counseling on chemsex? I just don't think that that's available here. Um, but what a great opportunity and what practice.
Absolutely.
Great exposure for you and practice for you to do what you're doing now. Yeah.
And obviously our initiative grew from there. Um, and, and I'm so proud of this group of people that set this up and that we are 9 volunteers at the moment. And it's very humbling and amazing to be a part of that. And I still continue, uh, to this day, uh, putting my volunteering hours there.
Oh, nice.
Um, yeah, I really think it's important. And, uh, it's amazing to talk to people that are coming up to me. One of my, uh, participants at the moment, like, yeah, we spoke in 2022 and you gave me advice and I followed it. It's so amazing to get that feedback. Because it's a one-off, we don't see people back. Um, like you send somebody off with a message or a, and you hope for the best and often not knowing where they will end up. But, uh, yeah, it's great. And, um, uh, for as far as I know, this is not anywhere else in the Netherlands nor anywhere else in the world as far as I know. I know that in London they're starting to pick this up as well. So I hope, because I really think it's an amazing, um, yeah, way for people to, um, get their first experience with asking for help. No, it's very valuable, I think.
Yeah.
So whoever is listening, set this up and ask me for details.
Yeah, I did. I mean, I do take that back because there's, I've had, um, gentlemen from San Francisco and from LA, like Partywise. Um, they do offer harm reduction and free, you know, free services and things like that. So, I mean, there are some, some services, um, out there. So I'm just thinking about, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings and say there's nothing, right? Um, All right. So after, aftercare. You saw, so what I'm hearing is you saw that people would go maybe to treatment and then the, and this is the same everywhere, right? You go to treatment, you're in this protective space, you feel good about yourself, you're, you know, everything's chugging along and then you get spit right back into the same environment, the same people, you know, the same app and all that kind of stuff. Um, the transition is so, is usually so rocky, isn't it?
It is an understatement. It is, uh, it's very, it's a very tough look. You are, you're on, there are people who are taking care of you. There are people in, in that when you're in the clinic, you're with your therapist. There are people that look after you that are, have attention for your issues, that listen to you.
Mm-hmm.
And suddenly you're home alone. Good luck. And, and like you say, your life, your life hasn't changed. The people are still there. The, Perhaps the house, the job, the, the environment is still the same environment as it was in during your problematic time. Uh, not a very big surprise that a lot of relapses happen within the first month. I think the, uh, the numbers, if I get them correctly, are between 50 to 70% here in the Netherlands within one year. That's a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And then the The relapse rate for, you know, crystal meth itself is even higher than any other substance. That's, that's a worldwide statistic too. So I would say it might even be higher for them.
I don't know. Yeah, that, that's a good one. It could be. And, and also the recovery time from such a relapse is obviously often also longer, uh, before you can get back to where you were.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Um, Yeah. And that, that's, that's, you know, we, we realized also out of our own, uh, with our own experiences, uh, in mind, um, that gray area of having nothing is, is, is very dangerous.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, it took me many years and some rounds of therapy in order to be where I am today. And I would have wished that this kind of support was available when I needed it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and if I, we, you know, we started last September, so this is, this is, uh, you know, going into his 4th, 5th month.
Okay.
Um, if, if we, if I see how happy and how grateful all the clinics and all the organizations that are dealing with Chemsex, in the Netherlands are with our existence. It is amazing. It's humbling. But it also says something. It says that, that this apparently was needed.
Yeah.
Um, we sit at every table, all the clinics once, uh, that have invited us, we, uh, we are going, we meet them, we learn about their ways of working because all of these clinics have their, often have their own treatment plans. So we meet them in order to, to, to pick up their, uh, you know, their wording, their, you know, if a client comes from your clinic, what has he learned? So in order for us to, to, to have as much information as possible to help people as best we can. Um, I love—
wow. Wow. So you, you've really been received well. Getting invited to the table, that's amazing.
Amazing and humbling. And, and, um, yeah, it's really cool also. And, uh, thank you also for— I mean, I'm sitting here after a few months after setting this up. You latched on to us within 2 months. Yeah. Um, internationally. Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's really great and I'm really stoked and energized. to continue this work and to, to, uh, yeah, to, to make more of an impact. So definitely.
Yeah. So walk us through this. So if I, if I'm in a clinic or treatment, um, I, um, so you said that you help people, chemsex, behavioral problems, mental health, gay community stress. So I guess the clinic identifies a A reasonable or a likely candidate for you, and then you come see them, or how does that work?
Uh, sorry, I don't understand.
Oh, I'm wondering how, if the, if I'm, if I'm in a, after, if I'm in a clinic, if I'm in a treatment center, okay. So does the treatment center identify me as a possible candidate for your program?
And refer? Yes. The, um, all of our participants up till now have been direct referrals from clinics, uh, professionals, doctors, uh, therapists, psychologists, et cetera. Um, they can, they, they show the option of the coaching. There is no direct referral needed to, to join Herstel Collectief, but they are, their clients and patients are being shown the opportunity. Mm-hmm. You know, this, this exists. Maybe you should contact those boys and see if that is a fit.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. So they, they refer to us and all of our participants have come through that, uh, um, route.
Yes. And, and so what, what would you offer? What's the program look like?
Yeah, we offer one-on-one coaching. Um, Tailored, um, specifically looking at the issues that are, uh, that you have in your life.
Okay.
Um, you know, uh, we deal with structure, uh, connection, purpose, uh, community, sexuality, uh, identity. All of those aspects are, uh, you know, part of the recovery story and often damaged or not in a good place. Uh, in, in, for people in this, uh, this case. Um, what I see now as a common denominator is structure.
Mm-hmm.
That is something all of our con— uh, participants deal with because they all have had a life. Their life, current life is completely different from their lives before, and they all have issues with structure. All the other things are very tailor-made towards your needs and your question. And we work specifically on today and tomorrow. So what is your issue today and how can we find a way to make your life easier for tomorrow? So I'm not talking about substances anymore. We're not talking about cravings or relapses unless they happen in the space. But it's not some— I'm not going to ask about the childhood. These are, you know, these are the things you've learned in therapy.
Right.
Let's now put them into all those lessons. Let's start practicing and put them into use today and tomorrow. And how can we alleviate your life? Or, or set it up better for you tomorrow. So that's very specifically where we fit in, in, in, in this, in, uh, in the system. Um, and this can sometimes also, uh, coincide together with like, uh, the person going to a psychologist at the same time as they are coached by us. So we navigated ourselves into this corner. very specifically, um, yeah, outside of the treatment, um, bubble and really looking at daily life.
Yeah.
So yeah, and that's pretty much what we do and, and we practice, uh, give them assignments in the sense like go and try this or, um, yeah, see, see what, what ticks you, what is your, what are your interests? Uh, How can you find, um, uh, something to do that is important to you so that you feel valued again and therefore help your own recovery because it makes you feel better and dopamine recovery and so on and so on. So this is what we pretty much do. Um, we very much believe that recovery is not something you do by yourself.
Mm-hmm.
I think this system, uh, internationally, I think is very directed towards the individual. Like, you are responsible for your own recovery, therefore you're also responsible for your own relapse. And I think there is— it doesn't work. It doesn't work for me. I had— we need to change this because I think it's a collective I think people around you, uh, be it friends, colleagues, family, uh, your support system needs to be aware of what you're going through in order for you to come out of this bubble fast and in order for you to set up a life again, uh, that is sustainable. Um, I have the luck that I have a very tight, uh, group of people around me that helped me, uh, in my recovery. I detoxed at home with their, their help, their assistance. They were there. Uh, I, I totally understand that this is not something that everybody has. I think we can create it though. I think you can find people that are actually good for you and that care about you and that, uh, want to help you recover. And to look for that and to look for those places and people is something that we do during the coaching. Great.
Does, um, so I sign up for one-on-one. How many, how long is it? How many sessions do I get? And do I have access to you outside of the one-on-one meetings?
Yeah, we, um, Our, our, um, our coaching program is 3 months.
Okay.
Um, and it's about 10 to 12 meetings, personal meetings.
Okay.
Uh, depending on the progress, it could be a little bit more, a little bit less time as well. Could be a little bit longer. Um, I, the coaches are available between sessions for, uh, questions or, uh, updates. And I also do check-ins every now and then during the week, especially if I, if I know something is happening, you know, somebody starts a new job on a Thursday.
Sure.
I see them on Mondays. I'm trying to, you know, you, you send a text message on a Thursday morning, good luck today, or after, you know, at the end of the day, how, how was your first workday? Um, we are available for calls, uh, but, but, you know, we're also trying to Manage our own agendas and our own capacities there.
Sure.
And as we are not dealing with people that are, uh, necessarily falling back very often, it also makes the communication a little bit easier, obviously, because I would have a number of people relapsing on a regular basis. Uh, yeah. Then, then, then this communication during the week is gonna be about very different things. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And if, yeah, if that's the case, for instance, and then we do have people that obviously relapse because this is, this is what happens during these periods. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, there is a system in place for them to ask for that help if need— if needed, often 12-step program with sponsors, for instance. Or they are still in care at a clinic so that that role doesn't fall on us. And we also cannot take that responsibility as coaches. Um, I think it's a bit different from how you work, if I'm not mistaken, but we really position ourselves like outside of that zone.
Uh, in my program, You're talking about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we, we, we're in touch with our clients like every day, um, probably too much. Uh, but that's just because, you know, it's a different, it's a whole different kind of setup, but I'm just curious about that. And I, I liked what you, I liked what you're saying in terms of, uh, you started in September and you're noticing, because I, I'm guessing that you're going to 'Cause just like I did, enrich your program as time goes on based on the information you're getting, like based on the findings. So you said structure was, was one of the, the top needs of guys coming out of there. And that, that makes so much sense. 'Cause I always say to, to, to guys in my program, think about what it's like living in the chemsex world.
It's chaotic.
You are dishonest. You are inconsistent. You're unresponsive. You, you, you're all of those. You're unreliable, right?
Day becomes night, night becomes day.
That, right, right. So you, your question, I get the question all the time is how do I stop? Or how do I, when I leave rehab, how do I not use again? Think about all the characteristics you exhibited while on chemsex and just do the opposite. Right. I mean, that's, that's an easy way to say it, but, but structure to me, that's, that is, that is universal. I see that too, is get some organization and some structure, some habits, some daily routines, some consistent daily action to, to really ground in and get yourself moving. So I, I like that you said that, and I'm wondering, how do you help men Do that? If you could give just an overview, like where do we start with that?
Yeah, let's start with myself. I mean, that's also, of course, as a coach, what I bring to the table is that lived experience. Um, I started with putting my alarm at 7:30 in the morning, uh, getting up, doing my ablutions and, and making my way to the gym. Uh, I would go to the gym in that period every day, every morning, just to go.
Yep.
I would come back, you know, shower again, start making lunch. And by the time I was done with all of these steps, it was about, let's say, 1:30 in the afternoon. That's half your day just there. And was it simple? No. Is it easy to get up in the morning every day if you are just in a sensitive period like this? No, it brought me so much because it gave me purpose, a purpose every day. And that the afternoon might have been a little bit less filled with, with, with, uh, to the brink every day, of course, but it gave me structure to start my day and I would feel like I, you know, I had, I've done something. It's 1:30 in the afternoon and I've achieved already like X amount of things. Yeah. Yeah. It gave me a good feeling. Yeah. Um, if I look at the participants, for instance, um, uh, an example of somebody who got the opportunity to, uh, do this full-time work, work-study combination. Um, he wanted to start from scratch. From not working at all, being in recovery, to five days a week full-time plus studying in hours after work. That's a very tricky big step to make for anyone, let alone somebody who is in recovery like that. And a very you know if that doesn't work out, you you the the chance that you end up in a slip up or worse is quite. You know, so we started by, uh, looking at his days and, uh, trying to fill them up during those weeks, uh, slowly but surely so that he would get used to that 9 to 5 feeling. Uh, and, and we really practiced, um, with him to prepare him for this moment. Um, because you can see it coming in the agenda and you can see the risk.
Yeah.
that he's taking.
Mm-hmm.
And this is, for instance, something that you can do with this coaching. Uh, you can really assist somebody to get used to the idea that you will in the future do X, Y, Z. Um, and, and, and, and allowing them to easily to practice and to, to, you know, get ready for that moment. I think that's, that's an example of structure. Uh, another person I'm working with is, uh, I'm trying to convince him now to put his alarm every day. You know, that's the difference between these two levels is obvious, but they are exactly the same. And, you know, we try to cater to somebody's needs and capacity in this sense, but it's all structure. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Oh.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. And look, if, if you're, if you're still kind of thinking about, you know, how do I structure my life, think about like, did you make your bed when you were using chemsex? Probably not. So make your bed, right? Like, do the opposite. Just do the opposite of what you did and you're going to get something different.
It sounds pretty reductionist, but But yeah, how was that working for you? It wasn't. So let's do it differently.
Right, right.
Yeah. Also, you know, and I also think it's very important in this case is, uh, keeping tidy surroundings, surroundings in the sense of your personal surroundings. Uh, I think the change is also coming. I mean, we all remember these houses that, you know, the house that, that, that was the stuff that was around you, the mess, the house that was complete chaos when you were using in that period. I mean, we all remember that. Uh, I'm very happy coming into my kitchen now on a daily basis, seeing it just cleared up and, and, you know, makes me happy. It's a dopamine recovery thing. Just tidy your surroundings and make sure that everything is back in order and yeah, do the opposite. I'll remember that. Thank you.
You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, you know, go ahead.
Yeah, sorry. On that one example, um, I had with, with, with, uh, um, with one of the participants, he was like, yeah, how am I going to motivate myself doing that? I said, invite somebody to your house.
All right.
Yeah. Invite somebody, put it in the agenda. He's coming tomorrow afternoon. I have 48, 24 hours to, to, to, to, to organize my house because somebody's ringing the bell and coming up to my apartment.
That's right. Right, exactly. That's always a good way to get my house clean. I know somebody's coming.
Anybody's house.
Right. Anybody's house. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, the opposite, opposite reaction, um, comes from DBT, dialectical behavior therapy. Um, it's where I, I got it anyway. Um, but it's, it was originally for BPT, but a lot of people use it for, a lot of therapists use it for people with addiction. So, um, good little, good little rule, rule of thumb. Okay. What would be the opposite of I would do right now if I was, when I was back on chemsex, right? Like if it's 10 o'clock, I'd be scrolling on Grindr right now. Well, do the opposite. You know, don't do that.
Stroll outside.
Right, right. Scroll. Yeah.
Not to a cruising area.
Right, exactly. Yeah.
We still have them. We still have them.
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, we do too. I mean, do you have sniffy? Do you have sniffies there? The app? Does it look like—
Uh, Grindr is the biggest dating app.
Just the Grindr. Uh, okay.
Yeah. The, the Grindr, Scruff, Recon, Romeo are the biggest, uh, platforms here, I think.
Oh, I forget about Romeo.
Yeah.
Yeah. So your name, Collectif, um, Collective. So you were talking a lot about community and collective, you know, that you can't do this on your own.
True.
Um, a lot of guys that I talk to, they have, uh, jobs where they, they're afraid that they're going to find out that they have used. Um, they have friends Maybe they're straight, maybe they're gay, but nobody knows, right? And there's the stigma and there's shame around that. They're trying to do this anonymously and on their own. But as you said, doing it on your own is just, it's, I guess it's possible, but it's not likely. And you get such a, your recovery experience is so enriched when you have community.
Yeah.
And you have relationships. And so how do you get, how do you help men get connected with a community when they're almost starting from scratch? Like, what are the ways that you do it there? And how do you, how do you kind of guide your guys to do that? Or girls, or I don't know what, if you take all genders.
People.
People. People.
Good one. And, um, we have a— our Dutch society is a little bit different than, than the societies of the, the men that you, uh, describe at the moment.
Yeah.
The guys that you're talking about, um, we have a bit of a different society. It's a bit more liberal here. Uh, yeah, we definitely have issues towards being gay and being We are out in the open spaces, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there are still people that are not out completely, either with their preferences or their addiction issues. If you look into starting your life again and finding meaning, you often look at interests, at past interests perhaps. Music, uh, you know, instruments you played, hobbies you had, sports you did. Um, it's a bit easier to step into a new bubble being honest. People that don't know you from way back when, uh, and this is a very big step and I realize I'm saying it very, you know, easily and bluntly, but to, to go to that, uh, you know, to, to, to do guitar lessons with that new guitar teacher and just be open about your history.
Yeah.
It's a way to not isolate. It's a way to create a safe space around, you know, your new life. Um, you don't need to mention the gay thing. You don't need to mention the substances thing, but I'm, I'm a person in recovery. Uh, and it's, and I'm starting my life back up and I, I, I started, I looked at past interests and now I, I want to pick up the guitar again. And we, it's already like 3 or 4 sentences. You get a reaction, you, you, you have a conversation with somebody and it, and then it potentially makes you feel a little bit better.
Hmm.
I think that's the simplest example I can come up with. Um, but better is to find bigger communities, of course, where there are people that have dealt with addiction, gay or not, uh, where you can feel safe. Uh, it doesn't need to be an NA meeting or, or AA or any, any of those. That there are other communities as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and finding your bubble, finding your own people. What are your people? Are they, you know, what do you find important? What are your values? How can you match them with people around you? Um, yeah, I think I would, those are the things that, that, that, um, I would advise.
Yeah, that's, it's, it's a challenge for a lot of guys. And if you're listening, you probably can, or you who are listening can probably identify is we're so used to meeting people virtually instead of in person. Um, and then we claim introvert, you know, I'm an introvert or I have ADHD or whatever it is, whatever it is. Um, I have problems meeting people. Um, and so I just feel like it's, it's definitely an issue building community in whatever, in all capacities in the queer community, but especially if you're coming out of a chemsex addiction. Um, you know, you carry, you're carrying that stigma, that shame. Um, and then you actually see it, you know, there's, there's stigma and shame within our own community too, within the queer community as well. Um, But telling somebody to just put yourself out there, it is difficult. And like, I had this, was this a podcast I was just on? I was just talking about, I don't even remember. Yes, it was. It was, there was a podcast I did with this gentleman in London who created the Gather app for queer people.
Yeah.
And so you can just, I'm going to the park. Does anybody want to take a walk? Or I'm coming over. Yeah, I'm having a cuddle party at my house in 5 minutes or whatever. Um, but we were talking about what it takes to insert yourself in, in person into a people, into a group of people you don't know, or you get like a dog walking club or a hiking club or running club or whatever. Um, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. It can be.
It is very uncomfortable. Yeah. Absolutely, totally agree. And especially if you have a background or a story. Um, yeah, I totally agree. Um, I don't think it's simple for anyone. Um, I would advise baby steps. Uh, one of my participants has, um, has issues with, with this, uh, has difficulty making contact with anyone.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I, I asked him, for instance, one, one week, like, You know, uh, uh, open a conversation in the gym with a random person just about something you see or that you experience, or just a small moment. See how that goes. What kind of feeling does it give you? And what happens the next time when you run into that person? I mean, are you, you know, greeting each other? You know, you can also, by taking these smaller steps, try to, challenge yourself into feeling, getting more confidence in this corner. You know, with baby steps, with a smile and not a high, uh, a, a small conversation about nothing, you can actually, you know, start practicing to, to, to, to, to make this a bit better and, and to feel more comfortable opening up.
Mm-hmm.
With especially the question, know, what's the worst that can happen?
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. What is really the worst that can happen when somebody, you know, reacts weirdly? Is that on them? Is that on you? I mean, yeah.
I also like this. You brought up earlier, how can you, what improvements, I don't know if improvements is the right word, but what adjustments can you make today to make tomorrow better. I've never heard that. I like that.
Yeah, you can be an introvert. You can be an introvert. And, and, and, you know, we discussed that during the coaching and the person says, I have issues with this. I'm an introvert. Uh, yeah. And how are we going to deal with that now? It's not like I, I, I, it's coming from there and it happens then. And, and Um, yes, that's what, you know, that's what you worked on in therapy. It's a fact. It's there. It doesn't need to be denied. Um, how, how, how can we practice with, you know, changing that a little bit step by step for you today and tomorrow? Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Um, so, so far, uh, you know, maybe it's because, sorry to, sorry to interrupt, but maybe you are not your problem. You're not your problem. I mean, I mean, this is what you're also talking about. This is what a lot of people voice. You are not your addiction. You're not your problem.
Right.
You're not your ADHD. You're not your introverts.
Yeah.
You are you and let's, yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's move from there.
I love that. We can talk more about that. You know, because I get it. It's so we did it. We did a podcast here with Bobby and I, and it was the top pitfalls of chemsex recovery that we see, the, you know, things that hold you back. One of the top ones, they were, I kept saying, this is the most important, but they were all important, but is that the stories that we adopt as truth.
Right?
Like you're saying, like, I am an addict. And if you, if that's your belief and if that's your identity, when you walk into a hiking club, that's the shield, that's the lens that you're going to use that, that to, to interact. I'm an addict. And it's just, it sets you up for shame. It sets you up to be, you're going to see everything as rejection. You're going to see everybody as judging you because you come in with that shame story. That isn't true because in that moment, you're not an addict. You're you. You're getting ready to run. You're a runner.
True.
You're a gay man who likes to run. And so we just, we've got to, in recovery, like, like you said, you've done the therapy, you've done the treatment. Aftercare is start looking at what are the beliefs that you have adopted as truth about yourself and how are they controlling your life?
Wise words. I mean, this is, this is exactly one of the participants that, that it is just, uh, he's giving me disclaimers with everything that I'm, we're talking about.
Yeah.
Totally get it. Totally get it. Absolutely. I mean, I remember my ADHD diagnosis. Uh, I mean, it was a, you know, you have to navigate that. It's like, oh, this is just, oh, so I react because my brain, oh, everything, you know, went through that part of me for a while.
Mm-hmm.
Understandable. Totally respect that. Um, but yeah, I think it's better not to give yourself disclaimers. Yes, hard for me, comma, how am I going to, you know, move forward, do that step anyway? Uh, yes, it's hard for me because, respectful, I understand. Let's move forward.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's holding two truths, right?
I have ADHD. Right.
Right. And I'm going to, I'm going to build my community, right? Like, this is hard and I'm going to do it. I can do hard things, right?
Yeah. And see how it makes you feel in the end, because, you know, if it gives you, if we're talking dopamine recovery, I mean, these simple, these simple Wins because they are wins for these people that we're discussing. For such a person, that's a win. Gives you a good feeling. You know, it builds you up, and definitely, and of course there will be moments that you stumble. But I believe that this is possible, and this is something that you can make progress on. And the the amounts, the You know, the occurrence, the amount of occurrences, or how do you say that, the speed you move forward with it is your own. And small steps are also steps. You know, you don't need to host a full-on house party for all your new friends within 2 weeks. Of course not. Just a simple, hi, how are you, is also a great start for a new relationship.
That's right. That's right. That's right. That is right. Yeah, I love that. I could do, I think we could do a whole podcast on the disclaimers, right? Like, I, you know, I would say, I will say to some guys, you know, check in with me tomorrow through text. Well, I'm not a texter. Is that, is that true? That you're not a texter?
You don't like texting. Yeah, that's, that's a very good example for disclaimer. Yeah, you can, you can set up your whole life like that. Yeah. We all do it. I mean, you know, I think it's natural, but it depends, you know, awareness is a step to move away from this.
Yes. The early recovery is such the perfect time though, to take the time and become aware of all those. You know, what are you saying I, what are you saying I am? I am blank. What are you saying? When are you saying that? And you're going to find out kind of real fast about what's holding you, what's the limiting beliefs holding you back from not just recovery, but your highest self, your highest existence, which is, I think, is what this is really all about. Like for you, I don't, like you said, we're not, you're not helping them stop. You're helping them acclimate and become a new person. And, and, you know, reach their potential and expand and reacclimate into the real world and have a happy life, right? That's what it's about, isn't it?
Yeah, that's, we, I mean, that's also something that we say out loud, that we want to work towards that new life again, because it is possible. And even if you, in these kinds of processes, if you relapse, you know, you've learned so much in that period between those 2 using moments, that those relapses, you've learned so much. And that famous proverb of falling down 7 times and getting up 8, it's true. I mean, even—
Yeah.
And every lesson is, is, is, is helping you forward. I totally believe that. And these processes can be very complicated, but, uh, I believe that there is a lot end of the tunnel and every step you make is progress.
That's right. Yeah. Right. And sometimes it's a 1% progress today. Just 1%. That's one spot.
That thought, that friendly thought to somebody. Perfect for today. Perfect for today.
Yeah. I love it. I love what you're doing. I love what you're doing. Well, I'm glad we see eye to eye on so much. I love that.
That will be a very interesting podcast episode. So I was like, what are you saying?
Yeah, I need to have somebody on here that I totally don't agree with. Yeah. So what did I miss today? Because I know you prepared. Unlike me, you prepared for the podcast.
Yeah, I did. Some other things we do that the community also Sits in, oh, we also have the belief that, that, that we have a responsibility to, to go out into the world and to inform other people and to help people by, uh, by doing, um, um, community events. It's something that we're setting up where we are publicly speaking, uh, about transsex, about LGBTQ+, uh, issues about mental health.
Mm-hmm.
Um, gay community stress, because I, I mentioned it earlier, but I believe that they're all meshed together and our issues are not necessarily, uh, you know, coming from the one thing. It's not only the drugs, not only the sex. It's not, you know, I don't need to repeat these kind of things either because you speak about them often. Um, I believe that there is a, there is an overlapping uh, there it overlaps with all these elements such as mental health and, and, and our own queer community stress. Uh, we set up these community events where we speak about with the public, we bring, um, professionals there, but we also interact with the public also to see what's going on, to, to feel, you know, what is, what is new, what is happening today, what are you running into? And We're trying in this way also to, uh, uh, yeah, to bring this part of Herstel Collectief, um, to other people because we do feel that we have a responsibility to do that. Um, we also have community, smaller community events where we speak in a roundtable form about recovery.
Nice.
Uh, with, uh, professionals and people that want to come and talk. Uh, it could be mindfulness, it could be body related. Sober sex, but also topics about how to deal with queer relationships, not non-sexual queer relationships, peer pressure in our community, elements that often are, have been a catalyst or, you know, made use worse or have, you know, not contributed to you stepping out of that. Problematic time area. So we address these in the roundtable talks, and this is also a place where our participants and former participants can meet and also, you know, discuss this amongst themselves. We have a very nice organization, Queer and Sober, that is also, if I'm not mistaken, in Spain at the moment. And in the Netherlands, and they do these queer-centered activities. Uh, you know, they, they go to the museum together, they do walking tours, they do, uh, I believe also sports and running and stuff like that. They have evenings, game evenings together. Uh, and this is, you know, something that we also support, and we send our participants to those kind of gatherings. Um, to create this healthy, sober community around us, or at least a community that is not, um, centered around use, um, which is very prevalent here in the Netherlands at the moment. And, um, it's not getting any less. So I'm very happy that these, these sober communities are growing at the moment here.
Mm-hmm.
And we definitely support that as well.
Great.
Another thing. Yeah, another thing is we've set up a foundation. Yes, you mentioned it yourself as well. We have the same idea because the coaching is not insured care in the Netherlands. The addiction care is, but coaching isn't.
Okay.
For a lot of people, it's, it's not within their budget, especially not after this difficult period of abuse, about your life has changed, your income potentially has changed significantly. Starting this, starting our initiative, we knew this, but we set up our initiative first, and now we are ready to, to do the next step. And that's a foundation. And within the foundation is the recovery fund. And, uh, we've set up a, um, crowdfunding for that in order to, to help us establish the foundation and to, uh, get, get money for the first, um, uh, coaching programs that we are able then to give to these people for free. Wow.
Love it.
Yes. And that fund is, you know, the crowdfunding is happening at the moment. So, uh, Maybe you could share a link. That would be awesome.
Of course. Of course.
And people can contribute to our, to, to the crowdfunding in order for us to make this happen and to set up also a fund that is, you know, a long-term initiative that, that we can work with for the coming years so that we can make the coaching available to people that are not able to afford it at this moment.
Okay. Wow. Definitely. We'll put all that in the show notes.
And thank you.
Please contribute. Please contribute. Even if it's whatever you can contribute, I'm sure anything will help, right?
Anything is welcome. Thank you very much in advance. It would be awesome. Yeah. Thank you.
Great.
Let me see. Wow.
Well, yeah. What'd I miss? What'd we miss here? That's a lot.
Let me think about Uh, yeah, no, this, yeah, yeah. More about isolating in silence and, you know, these are some phrases there, but I think we covered everything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. Well, we're at an hour, so, um, people's attention span, people's attention span really doesn't, don't last longer than that. Um, than an hour. Um, So yeah, but this was great. This was wonderful. I'm so glad that you are doing what you're doing. I'm so glad that you spent time, you put away, set aside time for us here. Um, and you're really setting a, you're setting an example and a model for, for the rest of us, including me, including me, because I want to, this is a dream of mine. You know, I don't know. Um, it takes probably, I think, 6 months or something to get a nonprofit going here, a foundation set up. So I don't know when it'll be, but, you know, I'm going to be knocking on your door saying, can I see, can I look, can I look at what you're doing?
Absolutely.
Something different.
Same here. You know where to find us. And, you know, we're definitely, that's what we said in the beginning. We're a community. We help each other.
So, that's right. Right.
I'll see your messages coming in and I'll share all the learnings that we, you know, all our learnings. Yeah.
You make all the I'll make the mistakes first and then you can tell me what not to do.
Well, then I'll start, then I'll, I'll come knocking once I'm setting up a podcast.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I wanna be on more podcasts. All right guys, I hope you enjoyed this. This was very educational. Um, I hope you got something out of it. Um, please comment if you'd like on YouTube, comment on Spotify. Don't forget there's a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode. The link is in the show notes, or you can get it in your email by going to drdallasbragg.com. Click on blog and subscribe. All right, see you next week.
