EP 3:13 Adverse Childhood Experiences and Chemsex Misuse with Kit

Whenever having dependency on, on meth, where it can be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened in those wounds. But, but I think in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process, of being like, wow, you know, like there, there's another gray hair. Like that, that's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to, to be getting to, to this, this point of the kind of shadow work of, um, of having addiction.

Chemsex: sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. Glad to have you here. Glad that you are continuing to listen, and we are Continuing to see record numbers of downloads for the podcast. Really, really, really, really happy to see that. And a lot of new listeners to the podcast. So if you are brand new, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. We're glad that you're taking time out. There's a lot of podcasts to listen to, and you chose this one. So today I'm going to introduce a new friend of mine and our second trans person. on the podcast. I've been really seeking and asking for more diversity on this podcast, and I'm getting it, and I'm really happy to hear that. But I'm going to introduce my friend Kit Morgan here. I'm going to read these— I'm going to read this bio. And I have been told that when I read the bios, it's— I need to practice it first because I stumble through it. So I did practice this one. So I'm going to see how well I do. So Kit Morgan is a licensed clinical social worker in Indiana. Well, here I go. There's something popped up on my screen. New York, Virginia, and Indiana. Creator of The Liberated Porch. It's a podcast, right? Is a leading innovator for queer religious trauma-informed care. Kit consults with thought leaders and healers across the globe and has featured Been featured in Out Magazine as a guest speaker at Colgate University. Kit's work began in 2014 advocating for formerly incarcerated individuals through interpersonal skills development training and research about alternatives to incarceration for non-white men. It came to Kit's awareness that many of the incarcerated individuals had backgrounds in authoritarian Christian groups and felt deep shame about their identities and expressing vulnerability. These were stories that Kit related to. Kit began his career with one foot in and one foot out of the closet before fully emerging into identities as a queer and trans man who grew up in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist and Southern Baptist churches, where being out of the closet was both unwelcome and dangerous and sinful. In finding liberation of his identities, Kit felt drawn to pivot his career path and began to focus his work with people who ever felt unsafe in their homes or places of worship because of their gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation. While Kit specializes in religious trauma-informed therapy for queer people, his work expands to other adult trauma survivors. Welcome, Kit Morgan.

Well, thank you so much for having me here. And I just, I absolutely love your work. And I'm so glad that you have this podcast and are providing education about such an important topic.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate that. Really appreciate that. So I want to get into your specialties, which if we're looking at your Instagram page, online therapist for survivors of adverse childhood experiences and religious trauma. But before we get into that, you know, I'm very curious about, and I think from what I gather listeners are about what it's like to be a trans person in today's world based on everything that's happening. But do you still feel a little bit like you're in some kind of closet? Or do you have to be like constantly aware of what you do and how you are in, in public? Like, what is it like? For you?

I love this question. For, for me, I don't feel like I'm in a closet where there, there can be such a wide variety of experiences whenever being trans, just like how there can be a wide variety of experiences whenever being gay. And, uh, and so there's this phrase that, that's used amongst trans people called stealth. And stealth is whenever a trans person Uh, does not want to be perceived by others as being trans. And so it is almost like being out, but also being closeted at the same point.

Uh.

But for, for myself, that, that's not the path that, that I've chosen. So even though that I may be out and about and, uh, and people may not be able to tell that I'm trans at the same point too, if someone asks me about what my lived experiences are, Then it's like, okay, I had a, a girlhood because of how I was being treated of growing up and being in a very religious environment. Like I wore a lot of dresses, a lot of skirts because that was what was expected and demanded of, of me.

Mm-hmm.

So that really did end up shaping my manhood for, for today and, and how I look at the world and, and move through the, the world. Uh, but in, in my trans experience in 2026 and in, in being an American, I mean, it, it is pretty heartbreaking to be seeing, um, all of this dehumanization of trans folks, um, and, and also experiencing it directly. But then this is the first time in my life where I felt fully connected to myself and feeling fully embodied. And, and I think that, you know, this is such a goal that a lot of people want to experience of feeling fully embodied, like feeling fully connected to themselves. And, and I just wish that, you know, pursuing that and also attaining that wasn't something that was being punished for people. Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah. Or made it even a big deal, you know, like, yeah, right, like, I think this whole idea of coming out is too big of a deal too, you know, like, it should just be this natural, like, okay, this is what I like, and this is what the life I'm going into, period, right, so yeah, it's very similar, okay, well, you know, I've just, I'm curious, I'm learning more, I mean, I'm trying to educate myself and I found out just how ignorant I was last summer when I dated very briefly, but I dated a trans man. I knew, you know, I knew that it was from a dating profile, Hinge, and he said he was trans man on there, you know, and I'm attracted to trans men. I'm not hitting on you.

I'm just saying I'm attracted to trans men. No, I gotcha. You're just being open out here because I mean, I think that it's important to differentiate because sometimes people are only attracted to cis men and not attracted to trans men. So you're just clarifying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it didn't go well. Right. And I just, I said, I misgendered him constantly and said things that were so, you know, for lack of better words, ignorant. You know, but so I just, I've, I realized through that experience, like, you know, I want to understand more. I want to I want to, to not be ignorant anymore. And so I took it, I took some classes and now I'm in this sexology course where we're going deep into non-binary, trans, you know, queer fluid, gender fluid, just all the different asexual, pansexual, just all the different types of this and that. And I'm really getting a clearer understanding of What is really happening? You know, what is in this decision? And so I just, if this, if he's out there listening, which I doubt he is, you know, I tried to apologize, but he's blocked me, probably rightfully so. But I, you know, I just wanted to, I would really like to see him someday and to say, look, I understand what I was doing and how I was You know, just stepping all over the place. Um, he had some patience at first, but it didn't last long. But anyway, thank you for, thank you for explaining. And I like this word stealth. Um, I love learning new words and I'll be able to use that too. So.

Yeah. And I also just appreciate you sharing this here because I think part of this, um, in the LGBTQ community that it's important for us just to take responsibility and accountability whenever we're learning new, new things, you know. And I, I think like whenever recognizing of being attracted to the same sex, that a lot of times there's this fixation on genitalia.

Yeah.

And so then whenever being attracted to someone who is the same gender but not the same sex, Then that can get really complicated whenever having all of these narratives for a really, really long time. And there can be a lot of untangling that comes with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't want to get into the things that I asked. It's embarrassing.

But okay.

Yeah. Thank you for that very much.

Very much. Yeah.

And so can you tell us, we're going to switch gears here. If for those of us that haven't heard of it, what, what is adverse childhood experiences? What is, what is that exactly?

So adverse childhood experiences came from this questionnaire where researchers were studying about clinical obesity. And then as they were studying about this, they started to realize that There are all of these different adverse childhood experiences that people can have where this occurs anywhere between whenever a person is an infant all the way up until age 18. And the higher of the score that they have from this adverse childhood experiences questionnaire, where anyone can do this for free online and see the results online, but the higher the score, The greater the likelihood it is that a person ends up developing a substance use disorder or has a different chronic health condition. And so whenever considering about this, it can feel pretty dark and pretty dismal of seeing this whenever these things can be outside of a person's control between ages 0 to 18. Whenever people find out that they may have a high adverse childhood experiences score, they might be like, well then, is my long-term health just fucked, essentially?

Mm-hmm.

And it doesn't have to be. Instead, this can be something where it's shared with your doctors, your care team, of letting them know that there needs to be more preventative health services so that then you can be able to live a long life and be able to catch things sooner if that's something that comes up. Because a lot of this is connected to the stress hormone with cortisol that can be really dysregulated of being raised up in a time whenever you are vulnerable between those ages of 0 to 18, where that, that environment was not a well-regulated environment.

Mm-hmm. So if I am curious as to If I'm trying to recover and I'm curious as to what got me here, right? Like we can say it's genetics if we want. Like maybe, maybe mom and dad was an alcoholic or something like that. But this score can help, could help me kind of uncover, this is, this is why I am, this is what got me here.

Yeah.

Was I can look at these, I can look at this score and kind of determine like, I was bound to be an addict, you know, because I, I took this. So it's known as ACE, right? Um, I took this back when Oprah did her big push for it and wrote the book, co-authored the book about it. I was 10. I was all of them, you know, and I was like, oh, well, no wonder, you know, I ended up— and actually, I should be in prison. And I almost was anyway, uh, right? I mean, it was— it's, it's interesting how the score was pretty accurate in terms of determining whether I, you know, what was in store for me.

Yeah, it's like whenever I consider about this too, there can be this aspect of self-compassion there of looking back at this because I mean, whenever I'm working with people who have addiction in my therapy work, then a lot of times people ask, well, when did it go from using And, and so it's like in looking at all these different adverse childhood experiences, I think that it also opens up this picture here of how there wasn't really someone who was able to be soothing. And so it's like in considering about even having these experiences whenever being an infant and not having an emotionally stable caregiver. to be showing like these different facial expressions, for instance, that we're happy and we're warm and might be detached or may have just left, you know, that, that person whenever they were an infant alone for a long period of time, then it's like there can be this, this depth of, of crying that it can almost feel like where then it's like, wow, like this feels like this comes from something that Mm-hmm. is so deep. Where the memory may not even be in that, that front awareness, um, because of the, the roots of, of where this can be found.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So if I find, so this idea of being left alone, which to me sounds like abandonment, right? So if I'm wondering why somebody ghosts me or breaks up with me, shows me signs of not interested anymore, I wonder why my response to that is so exaggerated in terms of why am I spiraling over this? It could be, it could be directed, it could be correlated to being left alone as a child.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's like considering about whenever Being an infant, like crying is the way that communication is done. Like that is a way of saying like, I'm hungry, I need to be fed, or I'm tired right now. Like it's going back to, you know, HALT at a really early age of where this is brought up in recovery quite a bit. Like, am I hungry? Am I angry? Am I lonely? Am I tired? And whenever not having a caregiver be able to consistently be responding to that, then these responses can end up becoming very loud whenever being an adult because of not being heard whenever being so young. Hmm.

Okay. So if I'm in recovery and I keep relapsing, It could be that this abandonment feeling keeps coming. And my way to soothe it, of course, would be crystal meth or mephedrone or the drug. So my soothing is the drug, basically. And so what I don't think a lot of people connect here is they're just thinking about, how can I stop using this instead of How can I approach the problem, the hurt, the trauma that's causing me to want to use it? You know, like we're focused on the outside, the symptoms instead of the cause almost.

Yeah. Yeah.

Would you agree with that?

Oh yeah. 100%. Because this questioning of like, okay, well, how do I stop? How do I quit? And I think that this is really linked to this archaic idea of early addictions treatment of considering addiction as being a moral failing, which it's not. Like, you know, it's very important to be acknowledging that.

That's right.

And it breaks my heart that this is still a message that is put out there by addiction practitioners or in different peer recovery groups. Like, this is rhetoric that needs to be done away with. So whenever we can reframe frame things of looking at, no, actually, like, the very real needs that people had whenever they were vulnerable babies, whenever they were vulnerable children, were not being met. Like, that's where the failing started.

Yeah.

And like, and like, and I also want to have compassion for, you know, the caregivers who weren't able to meet those needs either, because a lot of times it was this whole chain reaction of there being failures of the system that were then impacting people's families in a very deep way.

That's right. That is exactly right. The moral failure idea of shaming you for using, you know, and for being in this addiction, because I've said it a billion times, shame got you into the addiction. Shame is not what's going to get you out. So if you are in some recovery circle anywhere, it doesn't matter what, and you are feeling shame and you are being told that it's your fault and just quit and all this other shit that makes you feel really, really bad about yourself, get out of it. Get out of it.

Yeah.

Because that is, you, it's doing you no good but compounding the issue. They might as well be sending you right outside to use drugs.

Yep.

Am I correct here?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think about this messaging of shame of I am bad, I am wrong. And it's like, you know, in stepping back and looking at this too, it's like this kind of phrasing, then it's this tunnel where it can be this never-ending tunnel because of having this really deep belief rather than taking a step back and questioning about like, Okay, where, where did this messaging come from? And so when, whenever we hear, you know, different messaging about like, there is no love like mother's love, for instance, or, you know, or if like turning on, you know, a football game and, and they're saying, you know, I just want to say thank you, you know, to, to my family and are like saying all these wonderful things about their families. And then people who came from families where then their caregivers, their parents weren't able to offer that to them, then like they may have this deep shame that is like, well, I must be bad because my parents did not give me that love or that attention and that care that I needed to have whenever I was younger.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

So my, my dad used to brag about and laugh at Um, the fact that they would shove my crib out into the hallway of the apartment building that they lived in because I wouldn't stop crying. Right now, this was a— these were teenagers with a baby, right? What do you expect? Like you're saying, right? That abandoned— that child, that baby out there is feeling Like there's something like, like you're saying, like, I'm bad. My parents don't want me. I'm bad. I stand between me and the love of those who I need the love from most, the care from most. I stand in my own way. So I hate myself. I reject me, you know, and there's shame. That shame begins and that self-loathing begins so early. We can't discount it. Preverbal, right? And so figuring this out, I want to say to the listener, this does not mean you get to blame mom and dad and be mad at mom and dad or blame grandparents or bullies or anything like that. It's okay to say you were victimized. You were victimized, but don't play the victim now.

Yep.

Is that right?

Yeah.

You're the therapist here. You're the—

I, I am loving this. Yeah. You're just like on top of it. Like, like this, this is wonderful. Yeah. 'Cause, 'cause I, I mean, like, okay. Resentment and, and forgiveness, these things can be really complicated. Um, so for, for instance, like holding onto resentment, this is something that can then cause a person to continue to be relapsing. But however, that doesn't mean that a person actually needs to forgive the person who abused them, because we've been learning from, from research that forgiving an abuser may actually create a higher likelihood of returning back to the abuser.

Oh.

So there can be a possibility of holding what can seem like 2 opposing truths at once. of releasing resentment, but also not pressuring yourself to be forgiving that person. So what it could look like is acknowledging how this happened and acknowledge that this isn't okay, that this happened and grieving that. And part of grief and going through these different stages of grief, and grief is nonlinear, but anger can be one of those parts. But whenever coming to this part of grief of acceptance, there can also be meaning-making that comes from that. And that's something that is really needed whenever having sustained recovery happen.

OK. Can you talk— can you double-click in on meaning-making in this process of grief and acceptance?

Well, I'll bring yourself up here for example.

Therapize me.

Well, I can't. You're not my client. But you creating this podcast, this is you doing meaning-making. The research that you do, the education, this is meaning-making.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's like looking at in peer support where it's like, OK, so I've gotten to this point now of having sustained recovery. How am I going to give back now? And giving back may be to others. Giving back may be to yourself. And it may be a combination of both.

I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's so important to look at your past and decide that's going to inform my future and I'm going to make a meaning out of it that's empowering and healing and edifying. for other people or just myself.

Yeah.

I think that's really important. And that's the message I want to give to many of the listeners, to make a meaning out of your meth experience, your chemsex experience. What meaning can you make out of it? You're talking about resentment. So many people resent themselves. For what they did, just for using. And they go get into these spirals about, what if I had never used? What would my life be like? You know, but what your life would be like would probably, you would still be in the circle of trauma and not knowing, not knowing it.

Yeah.

You know, so the meaning you want to make out of your chemsex experience was it got your attention. It got you looking at these ACE, these, this ACE score and got you looking at, I didn't get soothed. I was emotionally neglected. I was abandoned as a child. Like those need your attention.

Mm-hmm.

And so the meaning making you could make of your, your chemsex experience was this was here to get my attention so that I could heal deep. deep wounds, not just quit using a substance.

Yeah, definitely. And when, whenever I'm considering about folks who have a history of being dependent upon meth, I think about this of being pleasure deprived, being intimacy deprived, and, and how that can start at this very early level. Because it's like in considering about attachment and how I mean, in my clinical work and in meeting people who, you know, have histories of meth— sorry, I'm tripping over my words here— over meth dependency is that a lot of times, like, these folks were neglected whenever they were very, very young. And so it's like thinking about this of like how important it is to be held and to be swaddled whenever being a baby. Like, this is the earliest part of intimacy. And, um, and so there can be like this, um, this skin hunger that, that starts, you know, even before turning 1 years old. Um, and, and so it's like when, whenever I'm thinking about, you know, going after math, a lot of times it's looking for intimacy, looking for pleasure and trying to find that over all those years that, that were lost whenever being very, very young.

Could, could there also be, and this I'm thinking about me now again, I definitely was pleasure deprived. Okay. Um, and that grew into sexually, I didn't want anything given to me. Like, I don't want a blowjob. Like, I don't, don't do anything to me. And it's almost as if I don't deserve pleasure, but I'm going to give it. I'm the one giving. I'm the one giving all the time, but don't do anything to me. Um, and, and I just wonder if that's, if that's just what I, if that's what you're used to, if that's where your comfort is, is not receiving. If that is what happens, you know, to some of us who were neglected, is that that's just where we're comfortable is not— it's deprivation almost, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there is this language that is used so often in our community of, I'm a giver. And whenever I hear this, I think that it's important to explore What does that mean? Like, does it feel uncomfortable? Does it feel unsafe to be asking for what you want? Or does it also feel really confusing whenever not knowing what it is that you want? And so then maybe not wanting to show that confusion to a partner of not being aware of what could be those different pleasure points of receiving.

Yeah. And I've told this story before. It was last year. I guess it was last year. I don't know. But, um, I have a friend who I call my intimacy friend. And we went to a retreat and it was the first time, like, we, we laid naked together with boundaries of there's no kissing, there's no touching of genitals. Like this, we're just going to lay here. And it tore me apart. I mean, it was so— it, and when I say tore me apart, it broke down all of these walls, but it, it hit me like this was the first time I felt like someone just wanted to touch me and give me pleasure with no Expectation in return. There was no transactional part to it. And I think it was the very first time I experienced that. And it just, I just broke down and just could not stop crying. And then I went into all of these other things about how angry I was that it was, I was almost 50, you know, but, you know, because That's just where my mind went instead of being grateful for the moment. But I just think you're talking about the touch and the craving of that skin-to-skin. And I remember trying to get my mom to touch me and hold me. Oh my God. I'm going to cry every episode this season for some reason. But just like starving. For that. Um, and you just don't realize how that leads into meth and addiction. You just don't realize you, you, you have to put all these pieces together and know that it's, it was giving you what you needed at the time.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then I think about this additional layer here. Whenever being active in meth use and whenever someone finds out about it, then there's so much stigma that then, you know, folks can be treated as, I'll call it the untouchables. And so, so then it goes back to this, this, you know, very early history of not, not being touched with, with care. And, and so like, In our community, like there, there's a lot of just very quick experiences with, with people rather than just slowing things down and maybe just having clothes on, maybe just having those cuddle experiences, maybe not having kissing.

Mm-hmm.

And I think about what could happen for our community if more of those experiences were shared with, with safe people and the different healing that could happen as a result of that, because it is really cathartic and it's something really powerful to feel so safe with a person to, to have that and to cry and to be held in that. Mm-hmm.

So if I figure out, like, I didn't get soothing as a child, Okay. I was emotionally neglected. How do you go about as a therapist helping me heal from that? Besides, I think you just answered part of that, but what would you say to somebody who maybe they, maybe they take this test, which I'm going to read off the 10 in just a minute, but maybe they take this assessment and they figure out they're at high risk or they, it leads them down some memories of being like, wow. I needed, I needed you, Mom, Dad, and you weren't there for me, right? So how do I heal that part of me now?

So it really depends on who I'm working with, but something that I have found to be really helpful with folks with addiction histories that did not receive proper or appropriate soothing whenever being very young, is to ask them about the different high-impact activities that they're engaging in. And then, and I consider it to be a kind of detox process of those high-impact activities. So a lot of times, like, what I'll see from, from these folks is, is they will be engaging in these different kink and BDSM dynamics, where either they're not receiving pleasure or then they are delegating pain. And so I ask them to be refraining from those activities for 60 days and to instead be engaging in pleasure giving and pleasure receiving with people that they feel safe with. And, and this, this can also contribute to exercise as well. If, if people are lifting so, so hard, Where then they are hurting the next day, then I ask them to be switching up to yoga instead or doing another kind of strength training that isn't going to be as hard on their body and to be doing this for 60 days.

Okay.

And I kid you not, Dallas, at the end of those 60 days, I have seen so much changes from my clients. I notice hypervigilance decrease. from folks. I notice the impulsivity decreases as well.

Yeah.

And the self-esteem increase. And that does not mean not engaging in those activities ever again. But it's having this space and time to be having gentleness be brought into life and to be focusing on that for 60 days and seeing what can this be like? And in this gentleness, then I don't want people to be self-isolating either, because that is not gentle. That is punishing. And so engaging in gentle activities with, with other people, I think, is really essential whenever tending to these wounds that happen from them.

Interesting. Okay. So if I am not somebody who goes to the gym, if I'm not somebody who is engaging in in kink and, and those high-impact activities that you listed. I still, my goal though is to be in 60 days of gentleness. So I need to figure out for me, what does that mean? Gentleness, so it could be high impact mentally, mental activities too, right?

Yeah. Absolutely, of being highly productive in work.

Yeah.

It may mean like not getting out into nature in a relaxed way. Maybe this is also something where shortening the hours of sleeping, so maybe that means increasing the hours of sleeping as well. It could even look like changing up things with food as well. Maybe that means starting to incorporate Crock-Pot meals. You know, where it's like things where it's slow, of slowing down that process where that contributes to daily life. Hmm.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I would think eating a McDonald's hamburger is not being gentle on your system.

No.

Right? No.

Yeah.

And being around, maybe being around family that It requires a lot of mental fortitude, is not a good idea during this time.

No. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So 60 days of gentleness. Am I journaling during this time? What am I noticing or what am I— do I— what am I doing?

So something that I like to be considering about with journaling Because I do work with some people where they don't have high literacy levels because of having neglect happen.

Ah, OK.

Or, you know, or in also like looking at journaling as being a gold standard, then my thoughts are, well, what if I'm working with someone who has dyslexia?

You know?

And so I like to step away from journaling if If a person tries it and if they've tried it for a month of doing it a few times a week, like whether that be 3 to 4 times a week for a month, and if they're like, you know what, this was not helpful because sometimes it can actually increase people's ruminating thoughts rather than decrease it. And so some people find tremendous benefits from journaling and other times people don't. But so Whenever people don't find as much benefits from journaling, then I find usually they tend to benefit more from having a guided meditation, um, or also doing an empty chair exercise. So an empty chair exercise, uh, is whenever, um, you're sitting in a chair and you have an empty chair that is set up.

Mm-hmm.

You can have multiple empty chairs or just one. Yeah. And you talk to this chair as though it is a representative of either a part of yourself, whether that be a younger part of yourself or a future part of yourself, or it can be a representative of someone from your life, whether that be present or past. And you can be talking to them about how you have felt in experiencing neglect. And this can be a really cathartic process, and you can even switch chairs of then You sit in their chair and then now you're symbolizing them and representing them and then talking to your symbolic representation of yourself in the empty chair. So those are some different alternatives to journaling if journaling isn't a good fit for someone.

Yeah. Thank you for that. Because it, you know, I do talk about journaling a lot. It isn't for everyone. Yeah. So after the 60 days of gentleness, I mean, I'm guessing you're, you know, you're working with a professional, but where do you go from there?

Well, then I think about this from a recalibration process where it's like whenever people talk about going on different retreats and then they're like, wow, like this just changed my life. And now I'm realizing that I need to be having different changes in my relationships. Or how I'm showing up for, for other people or who I'm showing up for, then I think about that and having 60 days of gentleness. After that, a lot of times what I'm hearing is needing to recalibrate relationships or different ways and how people are showing up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Recalibrate. So at work, saying no to some things instead of taking it all on.

Right. Yeah.

Or setting boundaries with mom.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's a good time to reevaluate. I like that. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Well, let's, uh, let me read the 10 questions for the ACE.

Is that okay? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So if you're listening, here's the 10 categories of, okay, of, um, ACE, adverse childhood experiences. Did you feel that you didn't have enough to eat? Had to wear dirty clothes, or had no one to protect or take care of you? Did you lose a parent through divorce, abandonment, death, or other reason? Could that be losing a parent, like, mentally?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. Did you live with anyone who was depressed, mentally ill, or attempted suicide? Did you live with anyone who had a problem with drinking or using drugs, including prescription drugs? Did your parents or adults in your home ever hit, punch, beat, or threaten to harm each other? Did you live with anyone who went to jail or prison? Did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down? So that could very well be also passive-aggressive putting you down too, by the way, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, you know, there's people I know, there's a, a guy I knew that I worked with, one comment from his mom about, he, she was trying to put his jeans on and she couldn't get his pants on him. And she said something about how fat he was getting. That was— he was like 5 and still suffers this body dysmorphia. Like when he's, he's pulling his jeans on, he'll start crying if they get, you know, a little bit tighter. Isn't that something?

It really is because it's like whenever people are considering about these ACEs, Then sometimes people will be like, well, this didn't happen my entire childhood. And then say, okay, well then let's talk about whenever this pivoted for you. And how did this change the perspective of yourself and other people and the world around you as a result of this change of dynamic?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Wow. Um, did you ever Feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special? God. Did you experience unwanted sexual contact, such as fondling or oral, anal, vagina intercourse, penetration? So unwanted sexual contact, by the way, is— I'm talking like I know everything here, but it is at— it is at the discretion of you.

Right.

I have, well, I'm going to say this on the podcast. So my daughter is, was, is being touched by a family member, but it was a hand on the lower back or massaging the shoulder. That might not be considered unwanted sexual conduct by him, but it is by her.

Yeah. And I, I think that this is something that is, is a really important distinction too, because like, let's take for, for instance, this, like in families, depending upon like different cultures, like a kiss on the mouth may be something that is considered to be normal, but then there can also be these different breaks of cultural patterns. And then it can be like, You know what? That made me feel really icky. That made me feel immoral. Like I did not like that. And yet, um, there may be this pulling away that, that happens from, from that. And then that is that unwanted sexual touch. Like whenever I'm thinking about consent, I like to consider it about the Fries model of consent, that it's freely given.

Mm-hmm.

So there is no expectation about it. It can be reversible at any time. So maybe that was something that a person liked, was like of greeting their family member, of having a kiss. And then they got to an age where they're like, actually, no, no, no, I don't like that. And then it's informed, it's enthusiastic. So if there's a pulling away from, from that, then that is not consensually done. And it's specific. As well.

Yeah. And then, so let's go back to the, my daughter example. When she reports this to her mother, it's swept under the rug as that's just how he is. So then that goes into another number here, right? Is that, did you feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special? Or any of these other, you know, any of these others is that then she's felt, she feels, uh, invalidated.

Right.

And even that, that compounds the problem in that moment.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, you know, I, I know that like invalidation can be a feeling, but it can also be an experience. And so like, For her to have said, well, that's just the way he is. This is something that is told to a lot of people who have gone through unwanted contact. And so, so it's an invalidating behavior. And, and it's like, and I know that this is part of a generational pattern, but it's something where we can break this pattern. Like, like we don't have to say, oh, that's just how they are, you know, where it's like, okay, like. I hear this, you know, and like, and, you know, thanking the person for saying this made me feel uncomfortable because that, that's very vulnerable in and of itself to say those words.

Well, if he does it again, she's going to— there'll be another one where, did your parents ever threaten to harm each other? Because I'm going to harm the man. Yeah. So I might have to add to the ACE score. So if I, okay, so based on these 10, should I, could, even if one of them applies to me, isn't that important enough for me to pay attention to and try to kind of unpack it?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. In being a trauma therapist though, I have not worked with someone who only has just one. Right.

Right.

Anyone, you know, that I have met with addiction, whether that be in my personal or professional life, doesn't just have one.

Yeah.

You know, and part of this, it's like, okay, considering my sample size, you know, I know it's skewed because of what I do for a living and because of the kind of environment that I grew up in, you know, but But I, I don't think that, uh, people with one ACE, uh, score are, are gonna be as likely to be open to having these different conversations because it hasn't been something that, that has really touched their life before.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, I mean, this could be found anywhere, by the way, guys. Um, but we can put a link to You're maybe you're, do you have a favorite site where people can go on and take this assessment kit? Or is it just—

I don't have a favorite site.

No. Yeah.

Okay.

All you do is, all I did was, yeah, Google ACE assessment, right? Um, but so you can find this anywhere and go on there and take it if you haven't already, if you weren't a part of the big push a few years ago. But, you know, Oprah, anything Oprah gives attention to, the world Embraces. So Oprah got on the train of the ACE scores a while back. But the question was, the question was not, why are you like this? It's, what happened to you? Right? That was, I think the name of even her book was What Happened to You? So I think it's, it's just so vitally important for you in the recovery. For long-term recovery. Like, you can get to this 90 days, 6 months, a year, and you want to start looking at this pretty heavily because these, these, these adverse experiences have caused deeply ingrained patterns, beliefs, belief systems. in you that will fight to repeat if all you do is leave the substance behind and not dig into this work.

Yeah.

Right?

Yep. Absolutely. Yep.

Yeah. And you need a specialist like Kit Morgan, LCSW, to help you with this. So yeah, thank you. Okay. So what did I miss here, Kit? What am I— what's some important, uh, information that you think we could go over that I, I might have not touched on today? Anything come to mind?

I think that this was, uh, so in-depth here where, you know, where people can, can learn a lot from, from this. And, and I mean, it's like Whenever considering about adverse childhood experiences, it is something where it's depth work that happens with it. It can also be called shadow work as well. Yeah. Where I think about this from the concept of Peter Pan, where Peter Pan was chasing around his shadow to, you know, try to sew it onto his shoe so that it could—

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's right.

And I—

I forgot about that. I think about that, you know, whenever having dependency on meth where it can be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened and those wounds. But But I think in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process of being like, wow, you know, like there's another gray hair like that. That's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to be getting to this point of the kind of shadow work of having addiction.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, for somebody who It's constantly needing validation, you know, and that's what meth gave them. It could be possible that you just, you just didn't get it as a child and you've been searching for it ever since. Right. And it could just be a matter of when that urge comes up to be validated is that you just sit with it.

Yeah.

And maybe, and maybe hold yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Like that part, that baby, it needs, it needs held.

Yes.

But we want to— it's like, because, because when we were a baby, we didn't, we, we didn't know how to do it. So we tried to get to the next best thing as fast as we could. I think we're in that same mindset now is I feel a little uncomfortable and I've got to do something about it right in this second instead of just stopping being with it. And being with yourself.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Thank you for your time today, Kit.

Thank you so much for having me here.

I feel like I talked too much on this episode.

I don't think so. I don't think so one bit. I felt like it was a really fluid conversation here. And like, I just think about like the vulnerability here and I, I'm grateful for all the things that you shared.

Yeah. Good. Thank you. So can you tell us before we go about your podcast, The Liberated Porch? And I'm going to, for those watching, I'm going to put your, your Instagram up on the screen here.

Yeah. So The Liberated Porch is an educational platform. That I started. And, um, and so I have a Substack where I write about it. I, I also share some of this information too on Instagram and TikTok, all under the, the name The Liberated Porch. And, uh, and then I started this podcast.

Mm-hmm.

And it's exploring about sexuality, gender identity, gender expression, and how it relates to adverse religious experiences, because adverse religious experiences can also be very tied to people's adverse childhood experiences, depending upon what people went through. And so I want to help people of learning more about this so that then they can find freedom from shame and finding the words to be articulating their experiences.

Lovely. Love it. Love it. Thank you. Great, great work you're doing. And so needed. So needed. I really appreciate it. I'm gonna dig, dig deeper into it, um, this weekend. I've put time aside. I should have done it before the podcast.

I know. But I didn't.

I didn't get to it. Um, but yeah, I appreciate you taking your time today, and, um, I know it's going to help somebody. And, um, so if you are listening and this helped you today, or if you dig into ACE and you found it helpful, tell us. Tell us in the comments. You can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify. Hopefully soon on Apple Podcasts you'll be able to comment too and watch the episode as you can on YouTube. Yeah, so thank you again, Kit. Appreciate it very much. And I hope you all enjoyed and we'll see you next week.