EP 3:17 Where Does Intimacy Begin with Thr33

So I really wanted people to see that.

I would— I'm going to emphasize one more time because I think this one is really important. It's just pacing. Yeah, going slow.

Yes.

Because like, that's, that's the way that we did this. That's the way that I've seen in my own personal experience that allows the intimacy to grow.

Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad you're here. Today we're talking about intimacy and what intimacy truly is, how to establish intimacy together with another gay man, which is very scary for many of you. I know it was very scary for me. Oftentimes clients come to me and we've got them to a place where they've quit the substance and now they're ready to get back into their, their sex, get back into sex. Sexual reintegration is that whole process of trying to be sexual without getting triggered or discovering your kinks and fetishes again. There's so many complex layers there that you have to go through when you want to get back into enjoying sober sex. I talk to men often who haven't, who have stopped 15 years ago and haven't had sex since. I have men who haven't been able to get an erection in 15 years. So there's a lot that goes on here that As a result of a quote unquote sex drug or, you know, chemsex, you're having these chemicals to have sex, but then you have to— there's ramifications and you have to go through the process and the consequences of what you did. So today I'm going to share a personal experience with my, what I call my intimacy friend, really my best friend, 3 Shelton. I'm going to share our experience in how we just, we have gone about establishing an intimate relationship. And I'm not talking about fucking either, because this is the thing, this is what we're talking about today is a lot of you hear the word intimacy and you think it means being intimate in terms of having sex, and that is not what we're talking about here. So, 3, could you? Welcome to the podcast, and could you tell us about yourself, please?

Thank you so much for that beautiful welcome, Dallas.

You're welcome.

Thanks for having me. Um, a little bit about myself. Yes, so I go by the name Three, um, but you'll find me on the internet as Tucker, and that's what my mom still calls me. Working on it, but, uh, I live in Asheville, North Carolina area, and I'm a yoga instructor by trade. Yeah, just interested in growing in authenticity and getting to connect more with my inner truth and the inner truths of other people. And yeah, I'm super stoked to be here. I admire what you do and have admired what you do for so long. And yeah, just really honored that I get to be included in this process. So maybe there's more I could say, but I think that's a good summary.

Thank you. You are, you are Yoga Asheville, by the way. Let's just say that you are Yoga Asheville. Um, yeah. And I do slip up and say Tucker sometimes in my mind. And that's what you are. Yeah. Still in my phone. I have to change that. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, let's talk about our process a little bit, and then I'm going to ask you about your own experience too. But so we met On, I think, some dating app. I don't know if it was Facebook Dating, maybe, or something like that.

Yeah, probably would have been back in the day.

Yeah. You were like the only, probably the only plausible possible one on Facebook Dating for me to match with. But we lived 2 hours away from each other. And somehow we, you may have had your Instagram on the face, on the profile. Probably. So I followed you on Instagram and then we started chit-chatting there. Um, just chit-chat, normal chit-chat, um, back and forth, but it became this voice memo relationship, right? And I don't know who was first, but we started sending each other these voice memos back and forth. Um, we had some of the same friends and so So at first there was a little bit of sexual tension. Um, 'cause then we exchanged numbers, right? And then I don't know if there, we didn't, there was never any dick pics or anything like that. Thank God. 'Cause, you know, it's like probably the only friend I have that I haven't seen their dick. And so, but we did, there were some racy, maybe some sexual undertone stuff, right?

Mm-hmm.

But you, you set this early boundary, which I was not used to boundaries at the time. And it was, look, I'm not, I don't want to talk sex, sexually. I like you. I like talking to you, but that's, I'm not available for that. So for somebody like me at the time, this was probably 3 years ago, I guess, right?

Mm-hmm.

Boundaries feel like rejection, right? Because I, I don't know, I didn't know what boundaries— I, I've never traditionally had boundaries, you know, it just wasn't my thing. Um, and so, but usually when I would get something like that, a comment like that, I would just block somebody because that was just my thing. Mm-hmm. That's, that's my boundary. Bye. You know, but there was something in the way you handled that that was, you know, it was honest and it was gentle and it was also just like in this space of, you know, following up with, but I still want to get to know you, you know? And so there was something about the way you handled it that got my attention and I was like, oh, this is somebody that I feel like I need, I want in my social circle. So let me, let me ask you first, kind of, where did you learn about boundaries in terms of speaking your needs like that? Like, like what, where did that come natural to you? Is that something you had to learn?

Yeah, I learned about boundaries by not having them.

Yeah, me too. Okay, good.

And then suffering the consequences. So, um, yeah, uh, you know, recovering people pleaser over here, working on it. And, um, I think one of the hardest things to do when you're trained to monitor other people's needs and feelings is to know what your own are. Um, and so I have been on this healing journey for a couple years now of understanding that I was doing that, that that was even a part of my Being and, and then starting to rewire. And so that's, that's been a process, that's been a journey. But then I, I've found that it was easiest to do that right off the bat because it's like, once I'm getting somebody, put it right there so that it's not something that we have to like un— like stick later on.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so that was, that's been a journey. Uh, but even when we had that interaction, that was still early for me in this like time of trying that out. So, uh, yeah, I'm glad that it was well received.

Yes. Yeah. And so I point that out to say that is when the intimacy began because you were being vulnerable. You were taking a risk. You were, you didn't have to say that. You could have just did what a lot of gay men do, which is fade away. What is that? That slow fade.

Mm-hmm.

Or ghost me.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you didn't have to say that. You didn't have to share that part of like, this is where I'm at and this is what I'm available for. And that's not like, so to, to, that's, that's where I feel like our intimacy began in that little, little, little comment. And that also opened me up. To be able to share. Because I was like, well, if he's setting a boundary, I'm going to set one. But I did, you know, I didn't. Not yet. But, you know, but that was, that was the beginning of it. And so as we went along, you did get involved, you know, with, with a man. And I still had romantic inclinations toward you. And You started saying to me, you started saying that you love me in these voice memos. I was very triggered by that. I was activated by that because it felt too vulnerable and it felt like kind of a slap in the face of because, wait a minute, I'm not available for romantic things with you, but I am with him, but I love you. You know, like I've never really said I love you to anyone, or they say it to me. And let's just remember, those of you who have listened to the podcast for a while, that was my fetish in chemsex, was having the guy tell me that he loved me. How sad is that fetish? And what does that say about the trauma inside? Please tell me you love me, right? But that's, you know, so you didn't know that, of course.

No.

However, I was able to say that to you. You know, I was able to say, you know what, that's, that is kind of making me triggered. That's kind of like, I don't like that kind of thing. And, but that was, to me, it was our first repair as well, because I was able to say to you, this isn't you. This isn't a trigger. You didn't trigger me. That word, you telling me you love me, triggered me, but it's because of my own shit coming up. Um, and so that was another time of saying something really uncomfortable of, I feel hurt when, and, and being able to say that with confidence that it's going to be met with love, with openness, not with defensiveness either.

Do you?

Remember that, or am I just making that up?

Oh, I remember that. Yeah. But yeah, I think that that's like when intimacy is built, like even deeper, it's go through those layers of repair. Like you're saying, you know, it's like that, that like fracturing and then like this commitment to keep showing up and holding the container together.

It is commitment, isn't it? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I read, I read somewhere, let's see, I wrote it down. Intimacy is a practice, not a destination. And it is a commitment to keep practicing intimacy. Mm.

Yeah.

And the more you practice it, the more stronger it grows.

Yeah, exactly.

And then the more you're able to take risks with each other too, I think. So over the years, you know, then you had the boyfriend, then you had the boyfriend, the partner, and then you had partner problems. Right. Right. And, but there was one particular moment and I want to share this. I want to share this, um, not particularly for the intimacy, but, but partly for the listeners in that I still had these romantic feelings for you and You left a voice memo and it was all about this other guy. I was in a restaurant having lunch. So I'm listening to the voice memo and my whole body was activated. You know, it was jealousy. It was abandonment. It was rejection. It was all those things. Because even though at this point we weren't sharing completely everything because I still had I still had this notion that we might become romantically involved. I didn't share that. So it wasn't, you know, the intimacy wasn't deep enough for that. So I, you know, that wasn't something I shared. But so when I heard this voice memo from you, I'm in this restaurant and I decided because of everything I've been learning, I had decided to, I'm going to let this trigger run through my body. I'm not going to hang up. I'm not going to get upset. I'm not going to text something back. I'm not going to get mad. I'm going to— what everybody says is feeling is healing. I'm going to let this ride. And so I sat there. I had to grab the table because my body was shaking so much. I was shaking and crying and I had my eyes closed, but I just let it. It was, it was as if it come up through my feet. all the way up through my body and it came up to my head and it just kind of fluttered away. And I looked up and the server is staring at me, you know, and they're like, she was like, are you okay? I was like, I am so good. 'Cause I, I felt so good after that. 'Cause I, and then I felt like, wow, like this is what it's like. to lean in and sit with these big, strong trauma emotions because it wasn't you. It wasn't you rejecting me. It was some feeling from some time when I was a boy, I'm sure. I could probably unpack it and track it back. But I want to say this to you guys to say that in— when establishing intimacy with somebody, they are going to bring up all of your shit. Is that right?

That's it right there. That's what relationships are, right? I'm sure you talk about this, but they are mirrors and they're just going to show you what's inside. So yeah, something I admire about you, Dallas, so much is that you acknowledge and remind me over and over that when I'm triggered, it's for my own growth. And so when you, when one of us is doing something that then brings it up for the other, that that's actually an opportunity to seize on and be like, yes, okay, here's a growth moment versus, oh no, it's all falling apart and like push it all away and hide and go back to our other patterns. So.

That's right. That is right. There's something that we often say with each other is, that triggered me. Well, it's usually me. It's usually me getting triggered. But I would say, That triggered me. And it's nothing you, it's, you are being used by the universe to send me a message and to show me where I need to work. It's such a great relationship to have because it's never personal, right? Like, I am experiencing a trigger. Yes, it was something you said or something you did. But I know you, I know that is a message for me to work on something and thank you for being that catalyst of change, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so we, as, as the years have gone on, we've, we've, we've practiced this and we've established this. And so we can say openly to, to each other, like, intimacy is into me. You see, or into me, I see, but into me, you see. And so for gay men, and especially for me, is I, I spent 3 decades, over 3 decades, not letting anyone see into me because I was in the closet. And then we think when we come out, the problem's solved, but it isn't because we're still in the practice of you can't see me. And if you see me, you're going to, you're going to regret it. You know, you're going to, you're going to reject me. You're going to hate me if you do see what's in here. Do you agree with that?

I said the exact same words to you. I was like, you know, if people really knew what was going on inside, then they would, you know, think I was a terrible person. You know, like that's the root fear that I have to keep processing over and over. And I remember When, when we met and the progress from there to now of like the, the shelled version of you that I was like, I was like, oh, Dallas has this nice little spiky shell, but I know he's soft in the middle, you know? And then it would be like this over time that's like opening and unfolding. And it was always those like vulnerability moments that it's like rawness and realness that would allow that in. But it's scary to freaking do that. And especially with gay men when it's like It's like, what is a relationship with a man? Because we weren't supposed to have those. But then it's, you know, it's like, oh, when we get to, it's like always then blended with sexuality. And then especially with another gay man, it's like, well, every time we interact with each other, it's like sniffing butts, you know? Like, it's like, how do we, how do we do this? So then, yeah. Yeah, it's like easy to kind of get, get gray. So I think that Yeah, just building our intimacy over time and letting each other in. Um, I think it's, it's a good thing for it to be a slow process. Um, yes.

And, and back to the commitment thing, you, you've always been committed to this, to what we're creating. There's something, I don't know why or how you saw something, I think, in me and in us. Um, I, I would have ran off a long time ago because that's what I do. That's why I don't have— I have one other close gay friend. Um, and he took me back after, after I went into drugs and, you know, ignored him for years. Um, and so, but you, it was a commitment of no matter how hard the shell or no matter whatever, you're— I'm coming back because This is, I'm committed to this friendship. Um, it's like committing to, you know, a romantic relationship, right? Um, and so we started to, to gradually becoming more vulnerable with what we shared and being more comfortable with saying, you know, to, it's like for me sharing, like I did this last night, you know, like something that I would be ashamed to show somebody else. I started to share with you. Then we got to this point in our relationship where you had considered, we had talked about possibly, um, coming together in some type of physical way, not, you know, to practice, practice physical intimacy perhaps.

Mm-hmm.

Because you had, you were trying things with, you know, someone else. You were going to some retreats and things like that. So that possibility came up. And so then that kind of was in the air between us, right? And so that complicated, not complicated, complicated things for me a little bit too, because I think it started stirring up, well, maybe this, maybe this is meant to be, maybe we're always meant to be together or whatever. Um, and because I will be honest with you, and I think you knew, because Because you cut it off. I was not, and maybe not still, in a place to practice full-on, like, deep physical, like, kissing and touching and, you know, genital stuff. I don't know that I'm in a place where I could practice that with somebody I'm so close to and not get attached and not go in a deeper—

Mm-hmm.

And get attached in a deeper way. Um, and I feel like that at that point, it would change everything. for the friendship.

Yeah.

Um, so moving along, we did, um, get physical, but not, you know, and not in the way that you would think intimacy is. And that is, we were able to, um, we've been able to lay together, cuddle, um, even with no clothes on. With pre-described, pre-prescribed boundaries, right? There is no kissing. There's no touching genitals. Uh, don't touch your nipples. I accidentally did that once. Um, but, you know, just, and so when we, the first time we did that, that was so, that really, it took me into this deeper level of healing that One, I didn't know was possible, but 2, I didn't even know needed to happen.

Mm-hmm.

Because I'm laying there with a naked man with no expectations of sex. And it dawned on me when we were laying there, I think you were big spoon at that point, because I remember this point and I was like, he is here just for me. Like, he doesn't want me to fuck him, choke him, hit him, call him a disappointment, or anything else the other men want me to do. Like, he really wants me for me. And what— and I'm just like bawling. I cried the whole weekend that weekend because something broke loose for me.

Mm-hmm.

In that moment. And I understood kind of, oh, this is intimacy. This is really what it feels like beyond all the performance and the, the pressure of should we fuck, should we not fuck? What if I don't get hard? What if I come? You know, all of that stuff beyond all of that. It was a soul-level connection. Would you agree with that? Oh yeah, I'm doing a lot of talking.

I'm enjoying it because I get to like relive our story through your eyes too, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, and I mean, not to go on too much of a tangent, but I feel like that's like where intimacy gets confusing for us is like we— relationship is the only place where it tends to be like safe to feel that. And but then it's confused with, oh, there's this— there's all these layers of like performance, like you're saying, or like gotta do it right, or Um, you know, this kind of like, I gotta put this mask on in order to get received in this way, in order to get the thing that I want, you know? But if it's like we just take all the masks off and it's like, hey, it's just us. And there's no, there's no expectations here, you know? And there's, you see the boundary, you know, the container. So, you know, the safety that will hold you in that experience. Then it's like, oh, we can start to relax all that.

Mm-hmm.

Just be ourselves. And that to me is like, That's good stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about container for the audience? Like, what does it mean to have a container? Yeah.

Um, I mean, to me, container can be so many things, but it's really just like a, almost, I would describe it more energetically that it's like knowing the, like the foundations that you can flow inside of. So I think about the world as like, you know, that kind of yin and yang or Shiva-Shakti, these kinds of like masculine-feminine divine archetypes. And like that masculine structure, which is like a, you know, a, like a cup, and then the feminine flow, which is the water that would fill it. And so if there is no cup or the cup is cracked, then the water is going to leak and go everywhere and splatter, you know.

Mm-hmm.

But if you hold it in a container, then You can use it the way that you want to, right? You can take it somewhere and utilize it. So this is to me like the gift of a container and a container could be boundaries, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, our communications, um, it could be more of a physical thing or, or more of an energetic or mental, emotional, uh, conversational thing. So, you know, we can hold containers with, like you hold containers all the time with groups. Um, you're holding a container right now with this podcast. It's like we hold the container in our relationship that we create together that's like, oh, this is how we're going to meet each other in this relationship, and these are the boundaries and structures of this relationship. And I think a lot of times those things are just not spoken, but something that helps that I've seen for me and for us is when we speak it.

Mm-hmm.

And if we just, this is what the container is. You know, this is how available I'm going to be. This is how I'm going to communicate with you. Um, these are the things I'm not going to do. You know, these are the things that I want to grow and I'm asking for accountability with, you know, like a way that like the container can then serve a purpose versus just being like loose.

Yeah.

And we'll, you know, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what was, what has been your experienced in with, with other men in this? Because you, you have a lot of men. I mean, you, your social circle is so wide. I mean, it's like 10, 20 times mine. Um, but you have men's groups that you go to, you know, they're, they're straight men too. Um, and you have other retreats that you've gone to. What is, what is your experience with that in terms of how do you go about the conversation perhaps, or what is your overview, I guess, of, of establishing intimacy with a gay man or with a straight man?

With any human.

Yeah. Any human.

Yeah. I mean, it's always communication. It always comes back to communication for me. Um, and that's an area that's like a work in progress as recovering people pleaser, cuz it's hard to tell people something you think they don't wanna hear. Um, but that's, that's where the work is. So yeah, I'm a part of, uh, like men's groups, um, with— and I'm like with mostly straight men in those men's groups. And that's been an interesting growth edge for me, uh, because I was not interested in spending time with straight men for a lot of my life, uh, actually afraid too, uh. And so this has been a really important piece of like healing that. And then I've had, um, like gone on like gay men's naked tantric yoga retreats, right? Which are like a whole other thing, like a whole other experience because it's like group of gay men, let's take our clothes off. But, uh, so much healing in that too because they're— it like, it took away, like we're talking about, like the pressure because it was like, oh, we're all just, we're all just naked. Not like, it's like now we have to, you know, like there's no—

Mm-hmm.

It's like, and now we're like, you know, eating lunch and now we're gonna go do a yoga class and then we're gonna meditate. Um, definitely, you know, those are 2 very different containers, but, um, in each one it's like knowing what are the boundaries.

Mm-hmm.

And, and then communicating those. I've found when relating to gay men that for me, what I find the most helpful, as I said, And as I practice with you is like early on saying, here's the boundary.

Okay.

Now when I make a new gay friend, that's the first thing. Our first hangout, when we're first communicating, or even if they send me a message on like a, like a social media and then I'm responding, I'll say, hey, just so you know, like, this is where I am. Like, I'm open to friendship and connections like that, but I'm not for anything romantic or sexual. And so I'll say that from the very beginning. And then it's, you know, then you see how the person responds.

Right.

It's like a lot of information, right? So it's like, are they going to meet me in this container or are they going to show, oh, this is not a fit, you know? Then I say thank you and I would move along. Or this does really feel like a good container. We can continue to connect and get to know each other and Um, yeah. So for me, that's been super helpful. Um, just saying it right from the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So communication sounds like that's the, that's the key. What are you laughing at?

Not you. I just, I love you. I just think it's funny when you're—

When I'm, when I'm what?

When you're working.

When you're working. All business right now, mister. Yeah, so communication is obviously not something that comes easy or something we're taught, right? And communicating in and of itself is something that's vulnerable. Yeah.

Yeah.

For a lot of men, but also communicating with your mask off. As you said, is also, is also something to be looking for. So, so for you, I guess for you listening, where do you start? And I think meeting somebody on Grindr is probably not, I mean, not always, I don't want to say always, may not be the best place to go to practice intimacy with somebody. But If you are scared of physical intimacy, if you are scared of sober sex, if you have no libido or whatever, I'm telling you the place to start is with a friend or a family member and begin the vulnerability journey. Share something that's hard to share. Say something that's difficult to say. The scariest thing You know, just telling somebody that you have an issue with chemsex—that's vulnerability. That's intimacy. Into me, I see it. To me, you see. You are showing a part of yourself that is hard to show, that you might be ashamed. You know, eventually, three and I have shared secret fetishes. You know, sexual things that that we've shared that. You know, that, that are, that we now have a container where it's safe to share that. Right. Um, and so I would just say to you, like, it doesn't have to start with a massage. It doesn't have to start with a fuck buddy, although those are nice. Practice intimacy first by being vulnerable and having these hard conversations. Um, and then the other part here that we've, I think, done really well and has established a higher, a deeper level of intimacy is the repair work we've done, right? Because there was a time recently when there was perhaps, you talk about container, you know, it needs to be going somewhere. I think that you, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that you are beginning to feel that perhaps we need to take another look at this container.

Mm-hmm.

You know, has it gone? It's where it needs— where has it stopped evolving? Has it stopped growing? Right. Because sometimes, you know, at that time I was spinning out. But you shared something and it was maybe you were too tired to be sharing, you know, through voice memo. And then I was too tired to be receiving. Right. And things were were said, right? Um, but the repair that we do is so that when you, when you work to repair, and I think you call it when you have a charge against someone, is that right? Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. So, um, I don't know where that term came from. I think it was from men's work, but just like when I feel a charge, which to me is like energy built up in my system that doesn't have a place to go, then that's when like uncomfortable and unhealthy things start to happen. So let's say I like, oh, you know, like the way that person commented on something, I didn't like that. And then I didn't say anything, but then the next time, oh, they did it again. And now it's like building up this like, like level of energy in my system. And so I feel like I've got this charge, like I need to do something with this energy. Um, so that's where I might say, hey, Um, I've done, I've done this with you. I've done this with all my intimate friends, you know, my close people. And I'll say, I am experiencing a charge in my system right now. And so I just want to express it and connect with you and kind of share what that is for me. And, and then, then we start a conversation that way. Yeah. But yeah, for me, that's—

Yeah. It's, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to share those kinds of charges, especially these days when we have these cancel cultures and we have people just ghosting when they're not, when they're upset or, or going off, you know, or I'm going to give you a read as we, you know, we want to do in the gay culture. But, you know, you coming to say, I have a, I have a charge and then, and then what we could do at that point. My point is we can talk about the charge you're experiencing. A personal— it's not a personal hit of, I'm going to start listing all the other things you do that bother me, right? And I'm going to bring up the past. I don't think we've ever done that. I don't think we've ever brought up the past to say, you know, you've done this before, right? But we have in a very vulnerable way in terms of when I notice. A pattern with you.

Yes.

And you notice a pattern with me, I'm going to say, hey, I just noticed something. You're in the same pattern you've been in, which was part of the problem. Part of the issue this last time was I was in a, I was stuck in a pattern. I was stuck in a cycle, a pattern, which God, thank God I got out of. Part of it was because of you pointing it out too, but we, we have the confidence And the vulnerability and the intimacy to say, hey, I noticed you're repeating a pattern right now. How can I help you with that? Or is there a way I can hold you accountable? You know, and we hold each other accountable for things. And then, and then we reassess our conversations even to like, like you came back early lately and it's like, you know, I am trying not to be, uh, I don't want to complain anymore. I don't want to bitch. You know, about life or about myself or about other people. Can we in this container, this, that's the word of the, that's the word of the podcast container, I guess. But can we in this container limit that? You know, can you tell me if you hear me, but let's, let's not complain together. Let's build each other up in this. And I, you know, and I was on board with that. And I think we've done. Well, so far, I think we're doing okay. Um, and so on the repair work, you then, after we had, we had, you know, done the whole cuddling thing and we've been, we've been naked together and that kind of thing, you made a final decision. of I am not opening, I am not available for going farther physically. Because that was, that was still a question.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Um, and there was an aspect of me, even though I was like healing and crying and just like so like over the moon feeling this, like all these wounds were coming, like we're just being healed just by you holding me and just by me holding you. There was still an aspect of me thinking, oh, is this, is this the beginning of us doing, you know, more? I think that's a natural question because we hadn't addressed it.

Right.

But you, I, so there was, so then when you had decided that that was not something you wanted, um, you started to pull away from me.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So this is, I was really happy. I was really happy for myself in the way that I handled that one.

Yes.

Because I had, I like got your attention, pull you to the side and sat you down and look at you like, it's okay. Don't do this. Let's, let's, you know, let's cuddle a little more, but I'm good. Like, I'm fine. 'Cause I, you know, 'cause I, I was fine, you know, with, without it, but Um, that was maybe a little bit of people pleaser in you, right? Not wanting to, or being just, maybe you were avoiding saying it to me. You didn't want to hurt my feelings, you know, and you, and you saw how happy I was, you know, and how healed I was and all that kind of stuff. Um, but you did and you told me and you're like, this is it. Like, I don't want anything more than this. Um, and I was perfectly fine with that. I was perfectly fine with that because look, I, I have never ever just been able to lie with a man with no expectations ever. There's always expectations either from him or on myself.

Mm-hmm.

And I always, whoa, the desk is coming up. Sorry, I pushed— I'm getting excited here. I pushed the button and the desk started going up. Um, I don't even know what I was saying. Oh, um, the expectations thing. And so anyway, that's— I'm, I'm, I'm offering these examples as ways to show different levels of intimacy, how to establish this, and what intimacy truly, truly, truly is. And we've been able to, for years now, bring this forward and bring it to what it is today, where it's so beautiful, I think. Hopefully you agree with that.

I agree with that.

I've just, I've never had a friendship, you know, that, that also kind of healed these wounds around gay men that, like this has, and given me— what this did is give— it gave me a peek and a glimpse, an insight into what it could be like if I were to break down my walls and be intimate with another gay man. And you're not the only gay man in the world that I can do this with.

Right.

And, and so it just, there's so much hope in that. Because a lot of us who come out of chemsex misuse are traumatized by gay men. There's a lot of non-consensual sex. There's a lot of broken boundaries. There's no boundaries in chemsex. There's this, there's this overall feeling that Men are out to get me. They only want to fuck. Um, I only want to fuck them. You know, there, there's this, this dark world that we come out of and then we come into this sober world and we just, we, we hunker down and either we don't try sober sex or we're convinced we're not going to have it, or we just totally misunderstand what intimacy is, which is what I think, which is why we're doing this podcast.

There's something come up for me, if I may.

Okay. Yes, please.

All right. This is like from, I think, Brené Brown, and she like had this little talk. She was talking about something, but it was like the trust jar. It's like a marble jar that you put like every time you do something, uh, that reinforces trust, then you're putting a marble in the jar. And then eventually that jar is like full of marbles and then y'all can really lean into the trust, but it's a slow build process. And when there's a rupture of trust, a lot of those marbles are lost and it's a slow process to build it back up. And I think that that also speaks to like each time that we continue to agree to show up because authenticity means discomfort.

Mm-hmm.

It means showing up and feeling our real feelings. not just people pleasing and trying to be like, it's all good, no problem. But then continually showing like, here's my dark nasties. Not all at once, because that's, that's, you know, trauma overdump, you know, like not a good—

Right.

But bit by bit to build this thing over time, like that, that's how we show each other, oh, he's not gonna run away. Oh, okay, we can handle this, you know. All right, cool. You know, I can do this again. And And building this with you also then allowed me to do it with other friends, right? And then with family members and now with partner where it's like, oh, like I'm really building these relationships slowly, mindfully, and continuing to meet that person in vulnerability. And that's like a foundation of our relationships now versus it's all good. So I'm imagining Coming from this environment where it's so the opposite, where there is not trust, right? But it's kind of like wild thing. And then coming back to safety, which is like sobriety is like a, you know, it's like a closing. Like you're even making those gestures with your body, you know, it's like, okay, I'm gonna be really clear about what comes into this vessel. I'm gonna like hold my field. I'm creating a container for myself.

Mm-hmm.

That's really holding me so that I can come back to me. But then how do I then interact with anything if this is all closed? You know, if the veil is up, then there's, you can't let anything in. So you don't want to just let anything in because we know what that looks like. But we, we want to be like, okay, how can I make mindful choices from this centered place to see, oh, this person can match that energy, which is why, like, Mm-hmm. Those little messages at the first are like a good to be like, oh, that person would align with me. When you strong filter on, like, and we, we've talked about this before, when you have a strong filter, it filters a lot of stuff out. So not gonna suddenly then feel like, man, I have 32 intimate friends, you know, like it's really great. It's so easy, you know, it's like we have each other, you know, and then I like, I built this here with one or two other people, you know, but it's like. Small, and it's a concentric circle that like grows outward from you, from tension first. And if you notice, okay, I'm, I'm disrupting this central piece thing, or like getting caught in an old pattern, it's like, that's when it's like, okay, I need to check in and see, is this serving me? Do I need to change something with myself, or do I need to change something with that relationship? Um, and then there's the relationships that will meet you there and be like, oh. Yeah. Okay. I hear you. Let's upgrade this container together. And there's the one, thank you for the time we had together and blessings on the journey.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I guess there's also the other end is there's some of us who won't give any marbles, right? Like we're holding all of our trust marbles, right? But then there's the others who take the whole jar and pour it into yours. Right away. Right? There's no cost of admission to get to me. So I think there's two, there are two spectrums there.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.

Um, but if you want to build intimacy, like you're saying, is one little marble at a time. Let me trust him with this. Now let me trust him with that. Now let me share this. Let me see how he, he, she, they, he, she, they responds. You know, like you said, the response, you can tell in the response right away how it's going to be. Yeah, I think, I think that's important to know if you, you know, because some of you, here's the thing is if you had anxious attachment, if you had, you know, whatever trauma you had before meth, you probably were taking meth to Calm it, to voice it, to numb it, right? It's still going to be waiting for you after meth. And so if you didn't know about, like for me, I didn't have boundaries before meth, certainly not during. And then after I didn't, I still was that anxious attachment, needy, like, you know, just always getting my feelings hurt, always looking for someone to love me, man, after meth. I just, I just didn't have any example until you. Like, there's just no examples out there for how, for doing this, for building this, for being committed to it, to not settling for a container or friendship that doesn't go anywhere.

Right.

Yeah. Yes. So great. Good. This is good. I think that this is a really good introduction. You know, we've had intimacy coaches on the show and we've talked about intimacy there, but I wanted to, I wanted you as a listener to kind of see in real life how the process can be. Now I am not the I am not the, you know, realized guru of all this either, but I do know that practicing intimacy with somebody has really helped me on the other end and in my sexual reintegration. Because number one is I'm not clingy and needy and I don't give myself away so fast now. Because like with the marbles that you mentioned, you— that's what we practiced and that's what I'm able to do now. That's very helpful. I don't get attached right away. I don't, you know, I just— there's so many, there's so many parts that are better now for me that have helped me establish a happy sex life that, that came from my friendship with you. And so I really wanted people to see that.

I would, I'm gonna emphasize one more time because I think this one is really important. Uh, it's just pacing. Yeah. Going slow.

Yes.

Cuz like, that's, that's the way that we did this. That's the way that I've seen in my own personal experience that allows the intimacy to grow because it's, it has to be over the course of time. To know that it's, that it is solid, that it is stable, that it's something you can rely on. If it feels amazing really fast, that's actually kind of a red flag. You know, it's like, it's like—

Yeah.

Too much too fast is like this like spike of internal energy and that's not sustainable. Right. It's like, we want this slow thing where we're building the energy over time and then we can sustain it that way. But if it just goes like this, it's really drop again. So that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And you've, you're in a partnership now and you two have gone really slowly, you know, but intentionally slow and methodically, you know, and, and you really have again modeled for me what to, how to build an intimate, but a long-term sustainable romantic relationship as well. And I'd like to think that our friendship informed your partnership. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's what I was saying.

It's like practicing with you and then practicing with these other friends and then practicing with siblings and then parents and like working way outward and people I work with. And, you know, those That like concentric circle of practice is how I've been able to make recovery strides of people pleasing and be able to actually have healthy boundaries and communicate my real feelings and needs. Then slowly over the course of time, then I opened back to the possibility of relationship and intimacy with somebody. That, that had to go real slow. It's like we were talking about with like sobriety and like closing off. Like I went celibate for over a year, you know? And I was like, I'm not gonna touch that. You know, I'm just gonna like, this is what I'm holding and, um, for myself. And then being like, I'm gonna introduce somebody to this field after cultivating it so strongly for that much time.

Yeah.

I was like, well, it's gotta be really mindful because I don't wanna just spike the thing again. As you, you were there and you heard it, you watched it happen, you know, but I was able to catch it because I was like, oh, this is so dissonant from the field that I've been cultivating. That is like, this is not it, you know? So I need, then I was able to be like, okay, get that filter back up.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. In sexual integration too, and in building intimacy, intimate relationships is Like you've been saying is the boundaries is a metrics of what it is I'm looking for, what it is I'll tolerate, what it is I won't tolerate. You know, these are the things that I need. Um, and I'm going to set all of this up like in a container. You know, I'm going to set all this up in a filtered container and look, it's going to save you so much time, heartbreak, energy, repeating patterns.

Yeah.

Is, look, this man comes along, he doesn't fit. He's not, he doesn't come through the filter. He doesn't, he doesn't fit in this container. And I'm going to know that right away. I'm going to, I'm going to come up with ways to know. I mean, maybe not the first encounter, but very quickly I'm going to know. And sometimes the first encounter.

Yeah, absolutely.

But you have to, you have to have the metrics available. That's what some of us, we're floating around thinking anybody who wants me gets me.

Hmm.

Or nobody gets me, one or the other. So, well, I hope this helps. I hope this helps, um, someone out there. Um, it was nice to go down memory lane and— yeah, with us. Did I miss anything? Um, do you think—

Everything, like our whole relationship, but you know, it's all good. I think it's, you know, it's like there's this dynamic that of like the podcast, which can be a little bit more like structured. And then in our relationship, there's more flow, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. One part where I'm like, it's not just like this, you know? But, so, but I, I love our relationship and this dynamic because it's not just like we create this solid structure and then it's just like this, you know?

Yeah.

It's, it's like we are doing it organically together as a dialogue. Right. And it's like, This thing felt weird, or, you know, like butting up against my boundary now. And like, so, yeah, acknowledging the living entity that is the relationship as well.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. And I love you.

Thank you. I love you too.

Took me a while to be able to say that. But I'm glad. I'm glad to say it. Okay, guys, I hope you enjoyed this. If you have something you want to add, if you have thoughts, if you have your own experience with intimacy, I would love to hear about that. You can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify or you can just DM me on any social media platform. I am everywhere. Do you want us to share— if you— I don't know if you want us to share your business platform, your yoga social media handles, we can do that.

Sure. If people are interested, they're welcome to look. I focus on mostly therapeutic yoga. So it's Um, slower and for folks who are, uh, often for folks who have injury or surgery history or conditions or discomforts in their bodies. So, um, it doesn't always appeal to everybody, but it is a beautiful practice. So if anybody wants to come play with me, I do teach yoga in Asheville area and online. So yeah, so say it out loud. Where are you?

Yes, they're gonna hunt you. They're gonna—

I was gonna tell them where my— where to find me. Right. Okay. I just wanted to make it awkward first. Right. But yeah, it's tuckeryoga.com or tucker_yoga on Instagram. Oh, I think I changed it. I changed it to 3 Here Now.

Oh, okay. Well, we'll put the links in the show notes.

All right. Yeah. Well, hopefully you can edit that last part.

Okay. All right. Go play with Tucker 3. Thank you very much for being here.

Thank you, Dallas. I love you.

Okay. Love you. Bye, guys.