EP 3:19 The Chemstories Podcast with Patrice and Bradley

Do it.

And when we judge it, whose voice is that? Like, when I'm judging something, when I'm judging myself, if I ask myself, why do I care about this behavior? Why do I care about this behavior? I start, then I start to think, well, it's actually not, I actually don't care about this behavior. It's some, it's something else in my head that's been rolling around for so long that it's taken up residency and I have claimed it as my own thought when it's actually not my own thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermeth Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. You know, if you've listened to this podcast, you understand that I have attempted to expand my own understanding of chemsex. And what you could do, you can tell if by the show intro, listen to season 1, listen to season 2, and then listen to season 3. You can see how my, how I have expanded and how that I've become more knowledgeable. Um, and I've more, I have a robust, more robust understanding. So, but I've not arrived in any way. Shape or form, but I'm enjoying this expansion. So I remember the very first episode I did on harm reduction, and it caused a lot of controversy. And I received feedback that I was killing people and I was causing people to use drugs and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't believe that. But what I do believe is that I'm really tired of seeing men living under the weight of stigma, shame, judgment. There's enough of that in the heteronormative world that we live in, and it's compounded inside our quote-unquote community. So if you can bring some dignity, if I can bring dignity to those who are still using, and if I can help advance their safety and livelihood, I'm going to do it. And the podcast is doing that. So if you've been listening, we've had people on who identify as someone who uses drugs. We've had people on who are in the harm reduction field. And guess what? It's all harm reduction. That's a big lesson that I learned last season. So I'm actually currently working to be a sexologist. And what I have found in the program is that I have a lot of bias. And I have bias in my shadow that I didn't even know was there. And so I believe that some of that still exists when I come across men who are still using, because chemsex is complicated. It's layered. It's understudied. The men I have on my show today, though, are diving into this with curiosity, without stigma, without shame. And I believe— Helping so many men who are either using or in recovery feel seen and feel heard. So if you look at my social media, you'll know that I am marketing to a certain segment of men. These men have been negatively affected by chemsex. Their stories match my story. That's my business. And my mission is to help these men in many ways. I'm actually not here to help them stop using or stop engaging in chemsex. I'm helping them build a life so expanded and so healed and so great that they don't need to return to something that for them was a maladaptive coping. But that does not mean that my story, your story, the people who follow me, that does not mean that our story is everyone's story. So if you're easily triggered by stories of chemsex or you're in early recovery and you feel that listening to this conversation is not— if you feel that listening to conversation that is not overtly negative about chemsex. If that all triggers you, do not listen to this episode. Just push pause. There's plenty of other episodes to listen to. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce my hosts. Patrice Heehim is the research coordinator at Collab, directed by Professor Olivier Furlatt, sorry, situated within the School of Public Health of the University of Montreal. He currently coordinates Chem Stories. That's a podcast series in both English and French that provides a platform for gay, bisexual, queer, and non-binary men to share their perspectives on PNP/chemsex, or H&H if you are in the UK. Based in Montreal, he holds a bachelor's degree in sexology from the University of Quebec in Montreal and brings his lived experience to his professional work. Bradley Hampton Wallace, he/him, is the Toronto, Toronto Host of Chem Stories, very good host, by the way, and a Master of Social Work candidate at the University of Victoria researching practices of care among men who engage in consensual slam sex. His work draws on his own lived experience as a person who uses drugs and is grounded in a queer ethics of care, attending to how care and knowledge take shape through lived experience and relationships within drug-using community. Thank you. Well done.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's a lot of hosts in the room as well.

We're host heavy, host heavy today. Well, I just want to— let's just start out, I think, by maybe just maybe if you could both tell us why you're interested in chemsex, maybe if you want, if you have lived experience, if you want to talk about that. That might be interesting too. Do you want to go first, Bradley?

Sure. I was just nodding for Patrice to go first, but I'll go first. Yeah. Why I'm interested in it? Well, I grew up around drugs and I have always been around drugs, but it was, I mean, it's been a problem, but it's never been a problem. In a way that I've, yeah, it's never been framed as a problem. The problem for me growing up around drugs was when I would go out of my home with my mom and see what people thought or said about it. That's, which is basically the stigma that you're talking about. 'Cause my mom used because she enjoyed it. And I, we would talk about it and stuff. And so my interest has always been there because I love my mom, and I still do even though she's not with us anymore. Um, and when I went back to school as a mature student, I, uh, was going to do some research, and I was, you know, trying to— I had these ideas in place. One was to do this project with some nuns, and my advisor said, nuns? And I was like, yeah, really? And then, uh, was like, So what's your, what's your location? Like, what's your relation with the nuns? And I was like, other than maybe a costume at Halloween, I don't really have a relation with nuns. And she's like, yeah, so we need to talk about something that you know. And I was like, oh, drugs. And she was like, oh, I was gonna give you 2 weeks to come up with an idea. And I was like, oh no, for sure it's drugs.

Yeah.

Um, and so from there I just was like, well, what do I know? I know, how people in the community use because they— I've used with them or I've seen them use. And so I just thought, this is, this is where my interest is. And then I started looking at some of the research, and some of it is great. It's all great because I think people care. I choose to believe that at the, at the center of the research is, is caring about community and wellbeing. But some of— I didn't see myself in all the research.

Mm-hmm.

And so then I started to want— I wanted to do research or be involved in projects that I was in, 'cause my, as we say in the podcast, one of my favorite people is Toni, or was Toni Morrison. And she would say, if you don't see yourself in something, then write your story. And so this is how we're writing it.

I love that. Thank you. Thank you. And I want to just pause and say problematic was a word I think that you used. And I think that I try to use that when I'm talking about chemsex or drug use, problematic drug use. That is the demographic that I deal with. And so I just want to make that known in terms of when people look at my social media or my material, They think that I'm this dogmatic, you know, this dogmatic person against all drug use. But it's, we have to make that distinction, problematic or negatively affected your life. Right.

Yeah.

How about you, Patrice?

Yeah, well, I'm very glad that Chemsex is a part of my life as my work now. I started with personal experience at the turn of the The years 2000, I was an early adopter. I was living in the United States then. And so I had my first experiences in Provincetown.

Oh, fancy.

Fancy. And but when I came back to Montreal, it was not here anymore because the drug didn't travel the border yet. So I was going back to the United States to have drugs and then coming back to Montreal. Then drug followed and at the turn of 2010, it happened in Montreal. And so that was when I felt it was becoming a slippery slope for me. So I decided to stop using and I succeeded. So the last time I used was 2012. And then I started asking myself, why did I enjoy it that much? And why was it slippery slope for me? So I just decided to study sexology because I felt like it was one of the best ways to understand myself and understand this specific type of sexualized drug use. And so chemsex came back into my life as part of my work. So I started coordinating this project in 2023. That's 3 years ago. And I'm so glad that I can represent the community community of the people who practice Chemsex and bring this, their story to the forefront. And I participated myself in the project before even starting to coordinate it. So that's the way I entered in the project was as a participant when the project was kind of in its pilot phase. And when there was an opening for a full-time employee, I was there and I already experienced it. So I—

Mm-hmm.

I'm very glad that Paris VFR has chosen me to coordinate the project. And so I've been the captain of this project for the last 3 years.

Literally the captain.

Captain, yeah.

I became literally the captain. We'll tell you about that later.

Well, I do love— I wish I would have been able to listen to more episodes. I'll continue to listen. But I do love the beginning when you're saying, leave your Uh, now, now I'm losing it, what you say, but it's like, oh, oh, come with an open heart and an open mind. Leave your judgment behind and this kind of things. We're getting ready for a flight, a journey, right? Um, yeah, I love, I really love that. A trip.

A trip.

Every journey is a trip. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, so that's kind of your background. So where did Chem Stories, the podcast, come from, if you don't mind?

How did that—

Absolutely.

It started in 2020, precisely where Olivier Ferlat wanted— he realized he's a professor at the School of Public Health, like we said, and he realized that we didn't get to hear the people who are using chemsex when there was a discussion about it in the, let's say, academic world, or scientific world, or even in some of the community work. Sometimes it was mostly the professionals who were talking about it and giving their opinion, and because the voices were not there. And it was the beginning of the podcast, Olivier wondered, how would that be if the people would produce their own podcast and we would train them to produce a podcast to tell their story?

Yeah.

And then we We would publish them. So the idea was really truly to, to give some input on how to make a podcast to the people who wanted to share their Chemsex experience. And it worked because we were in the pandemic, remember in 2020.

Mm-hmm.

So there was some trainings online, people were coming up to 5 people at a time. And we— I was one of that little teams. And so, we had 3 workshops, and then we would be able to produce our own podcast. So, that worked quite well, even though there was already some dropouts because it's a lot of work to produce your own podcast when you're home alone. Some people never did anything like that in their lives.

Yeah.

So, it was kind of a little bit too much work, and some people just didn't think they could do it, especially the people who would, let's say, relapse in the meantime or don't trust their point of view enough. Or yeah, so basically when the pandemic ended, that's where I came in in 2023. And so I could also give individual trainings and I could also help the people with the editing of the podcast. And some people also with the recording. So I could really provide personal accompagnement. Bradley, I need you for that word. To help the person to—

Well, you just helped everyone. Like, you would direct and you would support people through the whole process.

Yeah, exactly. And when it came to make the English version of the podcast, because I may not have said it, but it was the French version that we started with. For the English version, we brought a comedy community of people together with lived and living experience. And we said, okay, how can we improve the project? And they suggested that we make panels. So instead of being individual stories like it was in French, one person, one podcast, then we would have individuals talking together and sharing their stories.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where Bradley came in as a host for Toronto Podcasts.

Mm-hmm.

We also have a host in Montreal, Éric, and we have a host in Halifax, Andrew, who put people together from their network, and they also suggested some themes that would be what the main subjects would turn around. Even though people would share personal information, there was also a central theme that the podcast would cover. And that's how Bradley came along with us as the host for Toronto. So maybe you want to talk a little bit about your experience, Bradley.

Well, I was on the editorial committee. It sounds fancy, but I think we're called the editorial committee, aren't we?

Yes.

It sounds very Devil Wears Prada being on the editorial committee, which I'm fine with. And we met and we're figuring out ways to to move forward with the project in a way that was sort of, um, in a community-based collaborative sort of approach. And I think, uh, one of the things that I think is so great about the project is that the, the methodology of podcast actually, it eliminates, um, it eliminates, uh, a layer of interpretation so that the listener is not listening to someone else's interpretation of data. I'm listening to the data.

Mm-hmm.

And I get to piece things together and interpret things and listen to conversations and then participate, which is why I think I've listened to episodes a few times now and they're different because it's like looking at raw data. If I could say the word raw a bit more, that would be great too, wouldn't it?

Go ahead.

Yeah. And so I was on that committee and then I guess because I'm, uh, I don't mind. Anyway, they asked me to be one of the, if I would be a host for the Toronto episodes. And I was like, yeah.

Yeah. The perfect host.

Yeah.

There's something that you talk about a lot. It's meaning-making in the podcast. And I think, yeah, I did listen. Um, because it, because that's kind of what you're saying is a podcast is this, this modality where the story is there. And it's not interpreted by a researcher and it's not interpreted, it's not lumped into a chart. Right. And then I get to create my own meaning of it. And I think I really, I really, I'd never thought of it that way before, but it actually kind of has given me this new, like little rejuvenated rejuvenation about my podcast. Cause I'm like, oh, that's what I'm doing too.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I love that. I really do love that.

That was a professor I had at university that would phrase it as meaning-making. Rhonda Hackett is her name. And she was actually a supervisor I had on the first research project I did, which was just about what can be learned from men who engage in chemsex. And the idea of meaning-making, I think, is what is one of the things that's so great about just being a human being is that There, like, if we choose to not to think there is no coincidence, but we actually choose to get meaning or make meaning out of situations and then, and then apply that to our lives and, and how that impacts us, or what does that mean? It just, it just, it just, it's about being curious about people and a way of humanizing everybody. 'Cause drug users, I don't think, are always humanized.

That's right. That's right. The curiosity. is so important and I think missing a lot. You know, we're closed. We're so closed in our own little world. And, you know, if you're somebody listening and you are— because I have a lot of advocates listening or people in the industry that are, you know, on the side of like what I'm doing. I mean, what better way— and this is what I'm thinking too— is what better way to improve what you're doing by learning more from those who are using, who who are actually letting their voices be heard, studying what's happening. Why are they doing it? That kind of thing. Like, why not be open to that and let it inform your practice? That's what I think.

And listening to stories of people where it's not, it's maybe adjacent or similar to your experience, but there are things in it that you have discomfort, right? And finding and hopefully being able to see yourself in that story somewhere a little bit too. I think that's where we create Or when we actually start to dismantle the stigma. Because I think that the other thing that the podcasts do, or that even podcast as methodology does, is that it pushes back against like that sort of heteronormative oppression you're talking about and the stigma that it generates by— we do that by telling stories.

Yeah.

Because the dominant narrative is, it's not everyone's experience, right? And so when we start telling these individual stories one at a time, we're actually Kicking stigma to the curb.

Yeah, yeah, yes, I love it.

And if I may add also, the benefits are first for the person itself, the person who has the confidence to come forward and bring their story and share it with the world. I heard so many people who said, it freed me from being that person that was unworthy. I feel like I gained so much more confidence in myself. And also, the benefits are for the people who listen to the stories. because they get to understand a little bit more what— some of the people who participated said, I mentioned some things in the podcast that I would never have in my private life because I had the impression it became universal. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

And then they had personal discussions about what they mentioned. But I'm sure that people who listen to the stories, they can get a little piece of themselves, no matter if they're present users, past users, or if they never used in their life. Because we're all human, no matter what.

And I think as gay men, we do that. Gay men and queer men, we've been doing that since the earth cooled, right? Like, it's why we all know who we are in The Golden Girls, because we— the gender doesn't matter.

Right?

Like, we just don't—

I see myself. Yeah, Sex and the City, obviously Devil Wears Prada. But we see ourselves in these In these, in other stories all the time, we do that. I think one of the privileges of heterosexism is that you don't have to do that meaning making because you see your shit everywhere. Well, I shouldn't swear. As a Christian woman. Okay, good.

You can swear. We say all the words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this. And actually, um, I had a little video. I send my clients this video every day. Um, but I was talking about the universal language and how amazing it is. Like, you've talked to, um, Jordan. He was on the, he was on the podcast and he mentioned this, this thing of your, your cock rings being, getting, you know, getting worn and, and walked out the door, like losing all your cock rings, right? And that little, like, that is so universal. No matter where in the world you are, I can say that to someone in Australia, Hong Kong, you know, it's like, it's all the same. And it's like, it instantly brings you into this community, this universal understanding, the language. And so I just think that's just, it really is something that's Amazing to think about.

Yeah, we, we, it's, yeah, I agree.

Um, yeah. And so in this, in this project, um, like you said, the, have you had, what has been the feedback of men? Do you keep up with them after you did? Has they, have they said anything to you about what changes it might have made in them after they've been on the podcast?

People that were in the podcast, not listeners?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, in the podcast. Yeah.

Patrice?

Since the participation process was a bit different in French and English, in French, because we had such a long-term engagement with the people, seeing them a bunch of times, we also made a wrap-up discussion at the very end. We call it the evaluation of the participation, where we asked them all kinds of questions. How did the project— changed their lives. And sometimes the podcast was not even published yet, you know, because it was so fresh after it's been ready to publish. But all I can remember is that it brought so much joy and pride to the people who finally did it. Some people took up to a year and a half to arrive with the final podcast because they really needed to think it through. Some people relived some past experiences that was difficult for them. So it took a lot of time. Some people said, I was finished with this project, and then it came back to me 6 months later, like, I have to finish it. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Because not all the people who showed up and said, I want to participate, did finish the project. In French, we have like 40% abandonment rate. So because we had this last meeting, we could really measure the— what, what worked, what was best for them to make sure that they went through the whole process, but also what— which were the challenges. And that's some of the things that we're writing about right now is that we want to share with other research teams or just whoever would, would like to make a make-your-own-podcast kind of project because it could be brought to any topic, really, basically, this methodology. So we want to share what are the things that made it easier for the people and what are the things that were the challenges and how to overcome it.

Yeah.

But in English, because the participation process was a little bit shorter, it was one meeting prior to the recording, then we would record and then do a little editing before the publishing and then we didn't see them back. So maybe Bradley, you got some feedback from the people who participated.

Yeah, and I think what we're talking about is what is the value of community-based participatory action research, which is I think sort of the big general boring research nerd category, which is what is the benefit of doing research? Like, when my supervisor said, what's your connection to the nuns?

Right.

But what is the benefit of, of, um, because in the research I'm doing now for school, um, I talk about being a drug user and my relationship with the, the, the people, with the community. And so there, I knew them before the research project, everyone that was in that, that I spoke to, every one of those groups or Every one of those episodes, I knew them before the podcast, before we recorded. And I still know them now afterwards. I went to a play the other day with one of them. And so they talk about, one of them's like, before their episode was up, they were being a diva and were like, well, when's my episode gonna be up? I'm sick of listening to everybody else.

Right.

But I think it is the, It's the self-confidence, the self-esteem, and, and the idea of worth, I think, for queer and gay people is, um, that when we tell our stories and, and people connect to them, there's this sense of worth, I think, that, that settles in us that I think is really valuable. And I think that's mostly, that's like a really important thing that I see is this, uh, worth because when we take shame away from it, um, we can have way different conversations.

Mm-hmm.

And when we stop pathologizing everything into the individual person, it's like, I'm flawed, therefore I do this, as opposed to, I do this because it makes this better, or because when I'm at that nightclub and everyone else is doing MDMA, I want to do it. Like, whatever, whatever those reasons are, right? And also, we get to contextualize And talk about the world that we live in that often hates us, or that does hate us as, as men who have sex with men, and also hates women and a whole bunch of other things. But yeah, so when we can get self-affirming messages like the guys did from those podcasts, and also sitting together and someone sharing their story and going, while the other guy is listening to it, and going, Mm-hmm. Oh my God. That is so interesting, right?

Yeah, yeah. I do love the panel. I listened to a panel and I really loved the way they were. They really gelled. I mean, they were— it was— I mean, you could tell they were very cohesive, you know, and bouncing off each other. And I found that to be— I found that to be interesting. You could tell that they, as the interview went on, it seemed like their energy went up too, like they were really feeling that connection.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, they were a lot of fun. Um, I think I say in one of the podcasts that they, um, I think like in my brain they sort of sit in this place in my heart, um, as these really great memories of sitting around and talking with friends about shit that we don't normally talk about. Because, um, even among the— in the gay community, I think we create all these borders around drug use, right? Like it's okay to do MDMA at a club, But it's not okay to smoke meth from a bullpipe, right? It's like the gear basically becomes what separates us. Then we draw these lines based on how you are ingesting whatever drug you're ingesting. Because the idea of ingesting drugs for the gay community, I mean, scandal. It's not a new idea.

Right, right, exactly. I feel like, you know, there's a lot of men in recovery and I think they're taught to do this, but they demonize, they vilify their past. You know, anything about their chemsex use is terrible, bad. That was the end of me, that kind of thing. I had an episode here called The Gifts of Chemsex, and I had one of my clients on, and we talked about that. I, if I hadn't had my chemsex experience, I wouldn't be anywhere near the person that I am today. The healing that I've received, right? The self-awareness, the falling away of like, I was walking around asleep for years. I came out and it was still, I was still asleep, you know? And so that I think that hearing stories like this. could help men in recovery also come to terms and accept that, okay, you know what? I had good times. It did serve me. This was a part of my past. Let me stop judging it because the more I judge it, the more I'm drawing myself to it. And there's, you know, there's some of these men who don't understand why they're in a relapse, a chronic relapse pattern. They can't stop judging their past. They're just drawing theirself back to it.

And when we judge it, whose voice is that? Like when I'm judging something, when I'm judging myself, If I ask myself, why do I care about this behavior? Why do I care about this behavior? I start, then I start to think, oh, it's actually not, I actually don't care about this behavior. It's some, it's something else in my head that's been rolling around for so long that it's taken up residency and I have claimed it as my own thought when it's actually not my own thought.

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Yeah. Because, and that is If you're in recovery, that is recovery, is clearing your head of those thoughts, you know, because those are the thoughts that probably got you into where you were before. And so I just think opening up to these stories and listening to them, there's a lot of healing in that. If we just drop the fear, like, oh no, I'm signing off on this.

I'm a bad gay.

Yeah, I'm a bad gay. I'm supporting. I'm signing off. You know, and all that, just get through that.

Maybe also it's kind of a process because maybe it's a phase that you want to distance yourself as much as possible from the 2 experiences. So maybe it's kind of almost protection that the person wants to put their— vilify their past. Perhaps it will come back at some point. I think we cannot force it either. Like, it's something that will happen naturally. And maybe hearing the stories of other people makes you realize, well, I was not that bad, you know, because I don't judge them. Why should I judge myself?

Yeah, yeah, that is true. Um, every time on social media when I divulge some deep dark secret, something I did, you know, I get a slew of DMs saying, thank you so much for saying that. It's like, no, like, I have been holding this back all my life. And you did the same thing, and that makes me feel better now about myself. And I tell everything. I had kids at the time, so I would rush my son to sleep so I could have men over, or I would— and then I got into— I wrote bad checks on my daughter's account. And just all of this stuff that I did that normally people wouldn't say in a platform like this, but I just keep saying it because— You know, it's just, I just get all these DMs from around the world of men who are like, I've been holding this inside and it's been eating away at me for so long. And so just hearing you, I got freed by you saying it. And so I just think, again, that could be something else of listening to these stories and hearing, oh, he did that too. I'm not, I'm not such a horrible, bad person.

I'm always surprised how many people when I've been talking to people and even looking for people, like when I was in the recruiting part of the other study that I did for school, the number of people that use, that are like, oh, and I'll talk about the research I'm doing and be open about it because how can you not be? Like what I'm rehearsing, I mean, I'm researching like gay men's health, they'll ask me what. And so I, and so I tell them what I'm doing. But the idea of people going, oh, I, I smoke meth, I smoke meth now, but I don't slam because that's where I draw the line. And then we have these interesting conversations. But the number of people that use drugs on some level or have used drugs, I think it's greater than those who haven't.

Hmm. Yeah, yes, I would agree with that.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah.

I know one guy who's— or 2, 3 gay guys who have never used— well, 2, because I found out just that one of the 3 did in the '90s. Yeah, got it from a bouncer like I did.

Yeah, I'm still shocked by— sometimes I get messages like, what is crystal meth? Is that a problem in the gay community? From a gay man.

Yeah.

I'm just really, really, really shocked by that. This guy, he texted, he messaged me, he says, I don't know what you're talking about. This is not a problem. And all this kind of stuff. And I was like, okay, I didn't answer him. We came back a couple days later, he has a partner. He was like, you know, I asked my partner about this and it is a problem.

Well, well, because so many people keep it in secret, you know, so that perhaps there are people in their surroundings that use and they wouldn't know because they wouldn't tell.

By not naming it.

Yeah, right, right, exactly.

And because also, that's one of the things I realized in French is that when I was talking to people about what I was doing, the project I was working on, some people said, okay, well, I practice chemsex, but I would never come to your podcast because it's not problematic for me. I can use and I don't feel triggered by it. I don't feel like I lost control. So why would I come in a podcast to talk about something I don't have a problem with? And that kind of was a bias at the beginning because, you know, we would have people who had very what we would call problematic drug use coming to the podcast. So it would give an idea that all the people would have the same path. But in French, we diversified a little bit the people participating. And in English, specifically with Bradley, bringing a panel of 3 active drug users talk about their experience and how we don't want to pathologize it. And we just want to talk about some of the benefits and talk openly about it, you know. So I feel like it's, it's really brought a 3-dimensional aspect to the drug use experience.

Mm-hmm.

And I feel like if we really want to understand what chemsex is, what it's about, we need to have those experiences on the table as well.

Right?

Yeah. And that it's not new, right? Yeah. Like chemsex isn't like that. I mean, that term is relatively new. But the idea of meth in the gay community is not new. We're doing— I work with a bunch of men living with HIV here in Toronto. And one of— we have a book club and one of the this fall— fall, where are we? What month is it? No, this winter they wanted to read, um, a play instead of a book. And so we read Boys in the Band. We read the original, the original version, and then the updated version with a foreword by Tony Kushner, of course, who we love. Um, and they— the original version was written in like 1968 or something, so none of us were born, of course. Um, but They, uh, there's a mention of meth in it, like a very casual drug use meth comment in it, which the other day when I was, I was like, hello, can we stop and look at this? And they're like, one of the guys that's in the reading said, do you think they're referring to it like we refer to it? And I'm like, what do you mean? Like they're doing it so that they can clean the baseboards and not suck a dick? Like, what is the, like, what is the thing we're talking about here?

Right.

How would it be different? It's a gay man who's doing meth. So, and I think that even that is that instinct to, to create these differences of my use is a bit better or mine isn't problematic, therefore, right? Like it creeps in all over the place around the good gay and the bad gay.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's even stigma with smokers against slammers a lot. I see that in the comments in my social media and DMs. You know, well, at least I'm not a, you know, whatever, whatever the name they want to call them. Junkie. Yeah. Yeah. At least I'm not that. I just smoke every once in a while or whatever, you know?

Yeah.

And, you know, I just, I'm just like, I, you know, it just brings me, brings me to this memory I have when I was in recovery and I was trying to get back into, I was trying to create a gay circle, gay community, a gay community, a gay friend group. It was so difficult. I was like, no fucking wonder we have chemsex because it's, it's just so easy to be accepted and to feel non-stigmatized and to be comfortable. And, you know, I mean, it was just like, this is, I don't want this. You know, I ended up, my recovery team ended up being middle-aged hippie women.

Oh, that's my mama.

Yeah, so we would just, you know, we would go out.

You have this feeling of instant connection.

Instant connection. Instant, like, curiosity, curiosity, curiosity and acceptance. And no matter what you did, you know, it's, I don't care what you're wearing. I don't care if what, you know, it's just like, it was this instant, this bonding that we had. And that's, that was how I got through my recovery because I was like, I No wonder. This just makes me want to go right back.

You know, you know what's interesting about that, Dallas, is that at the, at the podcast launch here in Toronto, there were women there. We intentionally invited women because we're nothing without women. And at the end, one of them unprovoked, I said, you know, jokingly, you know, any questions, any comments, as you know, to the crowd, the women spoke up about how they saw themselves in it. Hmm. Yeah. I was like, shut the fuck up, because I'm so used to it. I never ever considered that it would be the other way around, right? That the Golden Girls would get value out of a gay situation, right? But it's always us getting— that is, but it's actually a two-way street. And that, um, and one of them talked about, oh, because they know what it— they know what sexual stigma is like. They know that People trying to control your body is like, they know, they know all of these, these, these universal themes that are surrounded by, you know, heteronormative behavior, right? Yeah. Good. Because the good gay and the bad gay is very, very set, dresses a bit differently sometimes than the good woman and the bad woman. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I, I get messages probably every day from women Um, all across my social media platforms saying everything you're saying applies to me.

I love that.

You're talking, you're talking to a gay man, but it applies to me. And then there's a lot of women who will, who will tell me that they smoke meth in the morning to get through raising the kids, cleaning the house, being sexual for their husband, running the kids around. Like they do it to make it through the day in their life and do everything that they're expected to do in this society. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah.

Well, there's that— all that stuff in the '50s around, um, yeah, ads around prescribing women, yeah, amphetamines so they could vacuum all afternoon in their pipes.

Right. Mommy's Little Helper, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love Mommy's Little Helpers. Yeah.

So I have to ask, because I'm going to get the question, um, What would you say? So I have treatment centers listening to this podcast. I have, you know, a lot of people that are, that have seen the darkness of people losing their, their lives, you know, like with me, I ended up homeless.

Right.

And, and so, and then there's the men who you run across who have this long-term psychosis. You know, they, there's a lot of men who will, will said, I give a free session to anybody who wants it. And sometimes I have men who dial in and they're in this psychotic state where I can't do anything with it. But what would you say to those people who have experienced that side and feel this aggression, this sadness, this anger toward this project?

Well, first I just want to say they're represented in the project. Because like I said, we talk about every topic. So we have specifically one of the podcasts that Bradley is hosting that's called The Wisdom Flight, where we get the perspective from someone who's been homeless and who lived what he calls the skip, living on the skip.

Yeah, okay.

And we get also someone with mental health issues. And they're represented in the French version as well because, you know, They're part of the stories. It's not just people doing well with, with Chemsex in the podcast. It's just that they're included. They're not excluded like they would in other social settings. Right. Yes. So, but truly, like, and the recovery is always there. It's always present. It's always one of the background themes, because in almost every panel, we have at least one person in recovery from chemsex experience, and they want to share about it. Or been through it. Yeah, exactly. And some people relapse, and they're telling how they came back. And it's really stories of resilience, because we are resilient. And even the people who are active users are resilient because they're facing stigma all the time. So no matter if you stopped or if you're still using, you will face it. At some point. Yeah.

Yes. I know there were the— there was the one episode, I think it was Hey Brian or something, where he, he was in recovery and he told his story. So, so yes, you're offering a balanced— who knew? Who knew you could offer a balanced picture of the subject?

Right.

That's what we're trying to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's not really about the drug, right? I think we, we make the drug the problem. And when we do that, We don't have to talk about oppression. We don't have to talk about— because we would still, we would still feel heteronormative oppression if the drug— if we didn't have the drug.

Right. Yeah.

It would still be there. Right. And so it isn't about the drug. It's about how we, one, can vacuum and take care of the kids all day. And too, sometimes just about where's my little respite, or where does— sometimes it's not even about that. Sometimes the trauma of being disliked and hated, or being thrown out of your house, that and sex don't exist at the same time. They can be in the room at the same time, but they don't inform each other that sex is still its own wonderful thing.

Yeah, yes, yeah, thank you.

And there's some discussions around in the In the panel with the— what's the user group called at the end, like the episode 13 or something, Patrice? What was that?

Integrity.

Integrity. Oh yeah, Integrity. Um, all 2 of those 3, um, guys that were in that chat had been through, um, like big rehab into a building where they were like there for weeks and weeks and weeks. And, and they talk about the value of that. And they talk about the value of abstinence as a, as a practice that you can come in and out of, rather than this way of life about depriving and not asking themselves questions and blah, blah, blah. That makes any sense?

Yeah, yeah, it does. It does.

Wait, just to give you an idea of the wide variety of experiences that are represented, we have 20 participants in the English version of the podcast alone. Okay, there are 32 episodes, and there's 50 15 hours of content. So there are a lot of stories that we get, that we go through, and people don't have to listen to all of them. But maybe you'll listen to one of the panels and you want to get all out of it. You want to listen to it in total.

Yeah.

And in French, there are also 27 episodes, 27 participants, and more than 10 hours of content. So altogether, it's like a lot of experiences.

Yeah, yeah.

Wide variety.

Bradley, have you— what have you gotten out of hosting? Have you— has this surprised you in any way? Have you learned something? Has it changed you in any way?

It's funny, in one of the episodes, I asked Olivier, If, because he's seen as a, as a person that does chemsex research, if anyone ever, anyone, anyone like is like, hey, you wanna, you wanna have sex because you're a chemsex researcher? And he's like, no, that doesn't happen. And it actually hasn't happened for me either, specifically in that because of that, it hasn't been the impetus for sex. 'Cause I, who, who needs impetus? You just have to, never mind.

Yeah.

But people have recognized my voice or my name and then messaged me and said, oh, I listened to the podcast. And I was like, oh, okay. And then they have talked about how meaningful it is to hear more complex perspectives around our lives.

Yeah.

And I think one of the most meaningful things about the whole project is the sense of community. Like, even with Patrice, who I now think is my absolute sister, because it feels like we've been working on this since the earth cooled, but in a good way.

Mm-hmm.

But the sense of community that has brought us together, even the guys in the podcast and the people that listen to it, how it brings people together. In the group that I do, or the group that I'm involved with here in Toronto, about with the men who are living with HIV, we're actually going to do like a book club, a podcast club, where we listen to the, the podcast. And I'm not going to host any of those nights. It's gonna be different guys from the group hosting, um, discussions around the different episodes of the podcast. And we're inviting, um, anybody, not just men living with, but it'll be led.

Mm-hmm.

by men who have experience in similar to the one that they're leading.

Okay.

And that's sort of instead of a, instead of a book club, it's a podcast club.

Yeah.

I love that.

It's just like how, how we can come together.

Yeah. Yeah. And using podcasts.

Yeah.

Now that I, I've never— now that I know what I'm doing with my podcast, thanks to you. I just, yeah, I just find it so much more meaningful, you know, get your story out there. Hopefully you listening, if you've listened to this episode, that you'll be— that this will stimulate you to contact me and want to tell your story. Please.

Mm-hmm.

Please do. I want more stories on here. I really do, because that's what people really get. Those are the most watched episodes anyway.

Which ones?

The ones that have actual stories. Yeah. Especially those that have sexually reintegrated after, that have found joy in sober sex and have gone through that whole journey. That's really what my listeners are hungry to hear.

That's fascinating. Because I wonder what, what is the messaging That we think we can't have joy in sober sex.

I mean, what is the messaging? I mean, I get it all. I mean, it's, there's men who, there's men, there are men, this is very common. They've been meth-free for 10 years, 15 years, haven't had sex since.

I know.

Yeah. Yeah. And they just have this belief that it's never going to be enjoyable again. And that it'll, it'll never be like that. It'll never be like Tina's sex. No, it won't. But it can be something different. It's something new. Like, you have to be open, curious, curiosity.

It's like, it's like a new continent, you know, somehow. Perhaps the landscape is going to be different. Perhaps the weather is going to be different. Yeah. The feelings. But I mean, at the end, what we really look for is connection, right? In sex, no matter the context. So I did find very good connection in sex with being sober for now.

So you've had sex—

almost 15 years.

You've had sex since 2012?

Yes.

I'm glad to hear it.

Good for you.

Yes, I can confirm.

Yeah, it's interesting. I find that that is, um, yeah, that's very interesting. I'm gonna, uh, look for some of those episodes in your— because I've listened to your, your, your podcast before, and I like— you have all of that when you talk about those, um, phases and those— that, um, like a map, really. You've mapped out, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fascinating, and I, I have enjoyed it. Um, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna look because honestly, if I'm— I mean, we're talking about bias The ones where people are looking for that recovery and that connection between sex, though I hate to say it, but I actually would not— that wouldn't be my first choice to listen to. Yeah.

Yeah. So I will. One to listen to is called Fuck Like a Porn Star is the name of it. It's a gentleman who went into porn after in recovery. He liked sex so much sober that he quit his job and he's doing it full time. And the process he went through to me is the model. It's the model for reintegrating and reprogramming and all the things he did, I think was, it was just perfect. And I always suggest that episode to men who say, I'll never have sober sex. I'll never like sober sex. Like, look at this guy. He obviously likes it. I saw it.

I've seen it with my own eyes.

It's a good demonstration.

There's also an assumption that if, that if you are a drug user, that all the sex you have is, is not high, is, is high, right?

Right.

And I, I have, I have sober sex quite often. I mean, it could always be more, but who's, who doesn't want to have more sex all the time? Um, uh, and I was talking about that in with the guys the other day about going on an actual date and then having sex after the date, and they were like, Well, when did you do drugs? And I said, I didn't do drugs. And they're like, oh, oh, you're going all heteronormative, homonormative on us. And I was like, no, we still had dicks in our mouths and other places. So it's not— it's still, it's still, you know, all the things, all the requirements. But this idea that, that sex needs drugs, I think, is—

Mm-hmm.

Is a really good conversation to have with people.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of stigma in that.

There is, there is. And some of these guys have been convinced someone told them they were a sex addict.

That'll chestnut.

Yeah. And so they have this fear and this judgment around sex, period, because I'm a sex addict. And then it just freezes them. They're frozen.

Yeah, at the same time, as a sexologist, I just feel like some people may need a pause. Some people—

Sure.

It may be short or long, but someone shouldn't ever feel pressured to have sex, you know what I mean? It should come from inside, not from outside. And our society has this tendency to want to push people to sex because that's the way you'll be happier, you know. So I feel like sometimes, no matter the reasons, if it's protection or Someone should also listen to their feelings, their inner voice, and perhaps it'll take longer. And I don't want— I wouldn't want someone to feel like they should or they have to have sex because it's not like eating. Eating you need in order to stay alive, but sex is something that is bringing more to your life if you want to have it, but some people don't feel like having it at all.

Mm-hmm.

So Yeah, it's just there's a wide variety. And perhaps these people are going to come back to sex a little bit later.

Yeah. Yes.

Why you're so much nicer than I am. Just as generally as a human being. That's so kind. But it's so true how we— and especially as gay men, right? The whole idea of being a slut is very— it's like we—

It's glorified, actually. Yeah, I feel. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh yeah, of course.

The more the better, the merrier, but it's sometimes, I don't know, it hides other things.

Yeah.

You know, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

I agree.

Well, gentlemen, what did I forget today? What did I leave out that you wish we'd have covered or talked about? Anything?

I may just want to add a little bit something about the universality of the podcast, because I'm sure, Dallas, you might You might be realizing that by sharing our story in the world, and because of the, the now electronic means that we have, like, we can listen to it on the telephone whenever we want to choose, in our privacy, and we can listen to some content around the world. And it's so universal, the chemsex experience, that I'm sure that with the English version of our podcast, we're going to extend even more the reach that the stories can have. And we realize it now, it's less than half our audience that's in Canada. So we have already an international audience. And that's so precious because we know that people will recognize themselves and people want to hear more in some places where they talk about chemsex even less, you know what I mean? So that the experience is the same, but we have a little bit more And we can talk about it. Some people have this liberty that they want to talk about it. So it's really a blessing that we have the opportunity to share our story, our stories with the world. And so thank you everyone for listening to Dallas. And now you can listen to camstories.ca.

Yes, yes. So good.

As well.

She's like on the shopping channel.

Um, yeah, we'll definitely put the link to Kim's stories in the show notes. Before my, my listeners, I, 50% are US, 40% are UK, and then everyone else is, is around, spread out around the world. Yeah. And the UK is, I'm popular over there. Um, and so London would be a good place, I think, to expand this to and represent the H&H guys.

H&H, I love it.

Yeah, high and horny. Yeah.

I was gonna say hamburgers and what? Yeah. No.

Well, this has been very, this has been very nice. And I thank you. And Bradley, I just want to say too, your hosting, you create this total space of non-judgment. Like you just, I think that you have made this space that makes it so much easier for them to share and feel free to share. And I love how curious, curious you are. It's also helped me, I think, analyze some of my— what I want to do here with the podcast. So thank you for that.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that coming from you. I didn't appreciate it coming from Patrice because he says it all the time. No, he doesn't. I'm kidding. Of course I did. But I do appreciate it coming from you. That means a lot. I think Um, it's not intentional. I was, uh, um, but I do love them. And I think that when that is there, there's, it just informs my choices, even which sometimes means pushing a bit harder sometimes too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love comes through.

In that one episode, we, we taught, I think I pushed them a little bit around their understanding around the word love and getting, being high on G. And they're like, no, it doesn't mean anything. And I'm like, girl, settle down. Maybe it does.

Thank you for that advice.

But I think you can only do that if you love someone and you have that safety. So thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

Yeah, that's true.

You're welcome.

Thank you. Thank you guys very much. And I hope you, if you listen to this episode, you enjoy it. Feel free to comment. You can comment on YouTube. You can comment on Spotify or you can DM me. We'll put the contact information for Bradley and Patrice if they want them. You can contact them directly. If you'd like to as well.

Yes.

Okay, thank you very much. We'll see you all next week.