EP 3:21 Using Yoga in Chemsex Recovery with Malu

What is— are you in the frequency of an addict? And this is— I say this all the time— is ask yourself, are you behaving as a person who uses meth? Are you in the frequency? Or have you bought into, I am an addict? Because if I'm just— if I'm an addict, I'm going to act like one. I'm going to think like one. I'm going to talk like one. Chemsex: sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad to have you here. Thank you for choosing us. Thank you for joining. Appreciate you listening very much. Don't forget to like and subscribe and share and all the good things to the podcast so the algorithm can get it to the people who need to see it or need to hear it. We are now on Apple Podcasts Video, so you can watch the podcast on Apple now, um, and Spotify and YouTube. So I think we're all into watching them, it seems like. That seems to be the trend now for some reason. But thank you for being here. And today we have a topic that we haven't covered yet that I am ready to get into, and that is yoga in sobriety. I have a client who is crazy about yoga. And he is, you know, he just attributes yoga to his recovery for many, many, many reasons. And I'm sure we'll get into them today. So. My guest today is a yoga for gay men in recovery practitioner. I'm going to let you introduce yourself. I'm probably butchering what you would call yourself, Malu, and all the way from Hawaii. So Malu, welcome.

Hi, Dallas. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, so I'm Malu. I'm— so I have been a yoga teacher for 20 years. Sorry, my dog is barking now.

That's okay.

So yeah, so I've been a yoga teacher for 20 years. And I didn't really kind of start out in working with gay men, but I just kind of fell into it because a lot of gay men started coming to my classes. I think they just see— they saw somebody who was like them and they wanted to be there. So, so that's kind of how my origin in that. But, um, yoga really played a huge part in my, um, recovery journey, which is mostly, it's, it's a, it's more of an alcohol story.

Mm-hmm.

Where I, I think, you know, a lot of gay men can really, um, connect with the idea of using alcohol as the way that we sort of deal with difficult emotions. So for me, uh, I actually, I walked into my first AA meeting in 2012. And so it's been a while, but it, you know, it's, it's one of those journeys that it's like you have peaks and valleys. And so since then, I've, I've discovered that yoga, which became a part of my story so early on, maybe about 7 years before I walked into an AA meeting, that I, I never really put the two together.

Right.

But then eventually I started seeing like how much The, you know, the practice really, really supported the sobriety journey. And after I started really using it as one of my main tools, I started introducing it to other men who, who, who have, you know, numbing behaviors, alcohol, substances, pornography, whatever, whatever is going on in someone's life. Often, you know, yoga can be a really good addition to whatever, you know, whatever main modality they're using in their recovery, whether it's a step meeting or if they're working with a therapist or a counselor, like it's really good to have yoga there because of the coping skills that it helps you to develop.

Interesting. And is that what attracted you to yoga in the first place anyway? You said it started 7 years before.

Yeah. So I actually, so I started teaching in 2007. But before that, I actually didn't. I took my first yoga class in 2002. So I was in college at the time when I took my first yoga class. And I did it as one of those, like, you know, the college offers is like, it's really an easy 1-credit class. So I was like, I'll take yoga.

Yeah.

And so that was how I got introduced to it. And I just loved it because I was never really one of those physical people who, who really connected with like being in the gym. I wasn't like one of those, one of those people, but for me, yoga became, it became my physical, like my physical exercise, you know, after I was introduced to it. And But then, like I said, it took a while to connect the pieces that it's like, wait a minute, there's, there's a lot of deeper elements to a yoga, to your yoga practice than you might first be introduced to when you say, like, take a class at a gym or to go to a yoga studio. You're really, you're really scratching the surface in a lot of those group classes. But once I started doing my teacher training and learning the deeper elements of yoga. I found a very specific teacher actually that helped me make those connections. His name is Rod Stryker. He's been my teacher since 2014, actually. He, he has a sort of a therapeutic approach to yoga where it's not about trying to achieve some perfect, you know, physical pose or like try to do really difficult things like handstand or like, you know, balancing on, you know, one hand with one leg behind your, you know, your neck or something. It's not that, right?

Good.

Like, it's not poses for the sake of poses. It's a lot of this like nervous system regulation kind of work. It's really working with the breath, pranayama. It's really trying to work with the energetics of what we have going on in the body and in our sort of going on in the head and in the body. So yeah, it was a journey to kind of make those connections, but once I did, I was like, wow, there's a lot within yoga that, that actually is, can be a bridge for a lot of people between the work that they're doing with, say, a counselor or therapist and this and the stuff that they have going on at home, right? Like, it's like, sometimes it's like, how do I take what I learned on the couch to, to what's, what's happening in my regular life, right? And that's where I think yoga can be kind of the bridge for people.

Interesting.

Okay.

Well, when did you notice? So you, you obviously had a problematic issue with alcohol. When did, when did you notice that yoga was kind of complementing and helping you integrate?

Yeah. So I was, so, um, it was a bit of a journey. Like I said, I, so I was actually living in New York City at the time when I walked into my first, you know, it was like kind of a dusty church basement kind of situation.

Yeah.

Walked into one of those, like, you know, the bad coffee and the, Yeah. You know, like feeling really awkward, not wanting to say anything about your story. 'Cause you, there's a lot of shame involved in like, you know, a numbing, any kind of numbing behavior, right? Like we kind of keep it, it's often, it's like we keep it to ourselves. We don't reveal it. And it was never like the thing with, for me with, um, using alcohol, a lot of it was really social. Like it was just, but it was one of those things where it was like I needed to do it all the time where it was like, I was on the go. I was, you know, I was working in communications and PR in New York City. And like, it's like you're on the go, you're just stressed out, strung out. Like you just can't, can't turn the brain off at night or whatever. So it was a lot of going to the bar after work kind of thing. And then it just became what it, what it became is this kind of like, it was my main coping strategy, right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, I'm stressed out. What are we doing? Like, what are we doing when 5 o'clock hits? We're going to the bar with coworkers. And then that just kind of spiraled where it just became, then it became something that I was doing on my own at home. Like, okay, I'm gonna go buy a bottle of gin.

Mm-hmm.

And like, I'm gonna have 2 or 3 drinks a night. But it was never like, it's, you know, it's always a problem to kind of numb your emotions, but I, I I think compared to most, like, I have not had it as bad as some others. Like I, it was a, um, it was definitely a problem because it was causing me to be dysregu— like, it's one of those things where it's like the drink helps in the moment, but then once that moment passes, it's like, but then you're left with this additional dysregulation.

Mm-hmm.

From the, from, you know, the, the, whatever it were, whatever it was doing to numb you out.

Mm-hmm.

The problem doesn't go away. It resurfaces, but often with a vengeance. And so it was like, so then I was just showing up in the world as like, just not a good person, you know, like angry, upset with like kind of the smallest things, like the train is late and I'm, you know, I'm just really like kind of up, just going through it, spiraling. And so when those things started to click for me, that's when it was like, I really need, I need some, I need another coping mechanism. Like the thing is the coping mechanism was staring me in the face the whole time. And I didn't really, I didn't really latch onto it. It was the yoga, you know what I mean? Like it was looking at me, but what I was doing, so Dallas, I'm, you have to entertain me using these like Sanskrit words because it, it's kind of the language I speak.

Okay.

But it's like, so I was living in a rajasic city. So rajasic means active.

Okay.

Really, like, if you think of like the way a train moves, like really fast, that's a rajasic quality. So I was living in a rajasic city, doing a rajasic job because I'm like, you know, I'm communicating, I'm trying to meet deadlines. I've, you know, there are, there's a lot of pressure to perform. So there's that happening. Then I'm doing a rajasic yoga practice, meaning a highly physical, very movement-based, very sweaty, very exercise-y. And, and then I was adding kind of fuel to the fire with alcohol. So all of a sudden I've got this like, like, is it any wonder that my, my nervous system was essentially out of whack? Right? Like it was just, it was like a brushfire that I just kept adding more, more gasoline to.

Yeah.

So like once I discovered through This teacher I spoke about, Rod Stryker, once I really became enmeshed in his techniques, I started to see that there was so much within the yoga practice that it didn't have to be what you kind of see on television, like the kind of like really fast, really vigorous yoga practices that there, there's a therapeutic way of, of working that is. that is helping you to slow down, using yoga as medicine. And that's when things started to really shift because it was like I had this practice, but I was just practicing in a way that wasn't serving, wasn't really serving what I was going through. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Like, and I think that's the, like, this is probably too much, but it's like if Like, let's say I was more of a sluggish person. I was like, I just had a really hard time just like getting moving throughout the day. I never met deadlines. I, you know, I was constantly late to work. That really vigorous practice would've been really good for me, but I wasn't that person.

Yeah.

I was a person who was like, go, go, go, go, go. And then I was adding more go, go, go to it with my yoga. So yoga should be something that balances you, not takes you further out of balance.

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So if Rajasic is active in the train moving, then what's sluggish? What's the word for that?

So that would be Kapha. So it's like, it's like there's inertia is like, would be a really good translation for that. There's someone who is very inert where it's like they don't They, they can't feel their feelings or they let their feelings make them very heavy. And, but then where you want to be is a, is a state called sattvic, which essentially means clear. So if you think of water, water is clear and there's like a purity to water. And that's where you want to be. You don't want to be overly like, you know, in the kind of like the fiery Part of things, but you also don't want to be like earth, like too heavy. You want to be somewhere in the middle, which is like, is where sattvic comes. And that's actually the yoga. So the yoga that I try to introduce to people is how can I move you to a sattvic state? So let's say you are on one, one or the other side of the equation. I want to move you back to middle. So, and so trying to figure out where do you exist on that scale? And then try to move you back to balance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, you're regulating the emotions, right? The nervous system by getting you to suffocate.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. So some of the things that is, that you said I wanted to come back to, um, and that is what I'm imagining here. You said that That yoga is a complement to recovery, that, that while you're in therapy, while you're in coaching, yoga could be kind of the way I'm seeing it is like a physical integration. Like you said, what you picked up on the couch, you know, now you want to kind of integrate it maybe into your body or try to process it somehow. And I do see a lot of this. I see a lot of guys. Taking on information, information, like all the knowledge and the knowledge and the tools and the epiphanies of, you know, this is, oh wow, this is my trauma. This is why I'm here. This is my, you know, but then what? They don't know what to do with it. Like you could do, you can have talk therapy to try to process it, but I feel like the right type of yoga could really help that move through your system in a way that probably you can't articulate. Is that right?

Exactly. And I think that is where, and, you know, I've been in therapy since I was in college. So I have a lot of complex PTSD from childhood and, you know, just being in an environment that was, there was a lot of alcohol use. There was just a lot of chaos in the home, a lot of moving, a lot of, you know, divorce. Like there was just like nothing was ever stable. Right. And I kind of, I, So I was doing the therapy to unpack all of that stuff. But yeah, like you do need something else. Like, you know, there are, you know, obviously there are gonna be therapeutic relationships that where you're gonna learn the coping skills, but you actually need to practice them. And often I think because you don't have your therapist with you 24/7, like sometimes it's like you actually do need this, additional guidance on like, how do I actually live this thing out? Because or else it just becomes, it just becomes a form of active procrastination, right? Like reading the recovery lit.

Right.

Listening to podcasts, doing all of that stuff. Like, that's just a way of like actively procrastinating on transformation. But if you can take that and then use it and actually put it into practice, that's where the that's actually where the transformation occurs.

That's right.

And so that's actually what I do with people is like, so, um, I work with— I, I call it like sober embodiment. Like, how do you begin to embody your sobriety? So like, um, and I always tell, like, I always tell people that I work with, like, there is a difference between abstinence and sobriety. So we need to understand that just because I am not— I have not had a drink like doesn't necessarily mean that I'm sober. If I'm out there, if I'm, if I'm throwing a fit because the, the lot, you know, the clerk at the drugstore is taking too long and they're, the line is building up. Like that means I'm actually, I'm not actually sober. I might be abstinent, but I'm, you know, there's that dry drunk title, right? So it's like, that's where if we can start to embody our sobriety, like, and so I take people through, it's like a 3-step step kind of thing where it's like, okay, first we're going to deal with triggers and cravings. We're really gonna— I'm gonna give you all the tools that you need to begin to work with those triggers and cravings so that you don't have to— like, if something comes up, like you're stressed out because of something that happened at work, you know, your boyfriend breaks up with you, you know, you get bad news, like, it shouldn't be— that shouldn't be the linchpin of like you falling back into a behavior because something happened, right? How can we work with the difficult things that happen in life and be able to stay in the difficulty, stay in, be, but be the, be the steadiness in the midst of chaos.

Yeah.

So that's one piece of it. And then the other piece of it is the self-study piece. And it's really beginning to understand like, what is my addiction story? Like there's a, there's a guy that wrote, his name is Tommy Rosen, I believe is his name. Um, he wrote Recovery 2.0 and he's a yoga teacher and he talks. So he talks about there's an addiction frequency and there's an addiction story. The addiction story is usually it's some version of, I need this in order to feel—

Yeah.

Um, like myself in order to function, I need this. Right. And so it's like some version of that, but we need to tease that out. We need to understand what is my addiction story? And then how does that story inform a certain frequency that we're living on? Like, I move through the world on a certain frequency. So if it's— if that frequency is wired to addiction, like, then everything about my life, it begins to serve that addiction, right? Like, it's like— But if we can change your frequency because you begin to understand Mm-hmm. The frequency that you're living on. That's the other piece, the self-study, you know, really going through. And that's where I introduce a lot of meditation and like really starting to be self-reflective. I also do a lot of self-compassion work during a self-study phase because a lot of it can, you know, you can feel triggered about certain memories coming up or whatever. And that's where we need to just like, We need to just give ourselves some love and grace that we are a human being. Like, you know, we're, and we're on this like process of becoming, but we are also being, so we're already perfect exactly as we are. So then there's that. And then there's the bigger piece, which is, um, an identity piece, which is really about who, who are you becoming? Like, what is your core? What is the core person that you are stepping into?

Mm-hmm.

Right now you are, you're, you're standing in someone else's And your real identity has faded into the background because the addictive self has stepped forward. The addictive self is the person who's in control right now. So how can I get your authentic self to step back into the foreground so that the addictive self is no longer in control? And so that's where we start to use techniques that some people are a little like, they don't really know how to process this. But so it's called yoga nidra, and it's a process of deep relaxation that we then introduce like a mantra that is, but it, you know, it's more like an affirmation.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like, you know, it could be something as simple as like, you know, I'm a man who makes choices that is aligned with my values, right? And then that way, it's like, it's not necessarily speaking directly to addiction, but it could speak to almost anything happening in your life. Like, you don't throw a fit because the clerk is taking too long with a customer, right? You are able to stay calm and just find your patience because that is aligned with your values. The same with picking up a drink or using a substance or like doom scrolling, you know, like—

Yeah.

if those things are not aligned with your values, you don't do them. And so finding a vision that somebody has, I think you talk about like having a vision and then that is the same. It's, we're talking the same thing, different language, but we use a very kind of deep relaxation technique in order to seed that into the subconscious. So in some ways it has some relation to like self-hypnosis type Mm-hmm. Type things where it's like you want to get to a state where the, it's the state between waking and dreaming where it's like, you, you know, like right before you fall asleep, there's this kind of like, there's this, there's this kind of a halcyon feeling that you have. That's actually what we try to get you to where it's just like, you're, you're, you're aware, but your body is asleep. You know, there's a trace of awareness, and that's where we use our sankalpa, our affirmation to— and it's not one and done. Like, you know, it's like taking your vitamins, right? You got to do it regularly. It's a practice. But eventually, that thing that may seem really— that vision may seem really far off, but after doing this for a while, like, all of a sudden you'll notice, like, you could be sitting in traffic and you're just not having the same reaction that you used to. And that's your—

Yeah.

authentic self stepping forward into that vision of, of who you want to embody. And so it's really powerful, you know, like, and that's the kind of, that's what I mean when I say there's the kind of yoga that you might experience when you step into like a kind of generic, like, you know, group fitness class.

Mm-hmm.

But there's this other kind of yoga that a lot of people have no idea about because it's so, it's such deep work. That you can't introduce it to a random person stepping into a group class. You need to actually be doing like real personal work with someone in order for them to find those teachings.

Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Let me— that's so much.

Sorry, there was a lot there, Dallas. I'm sorry.

There was a lot, but let me, I'll come back to it. One thing I've noticed you talking about, and you talk about it on your Uh, your, um, Instagram page too is the numbing behaviors, right?

Yes.

So I got stressed and I wanted alcohol to numb that out. I went to the bar. Eventually I started using by myself, and then I became more dysregulated, which made me want to drink more. That is not that different. That is not different than the chemsex cycle either. Yeah. Right. I get stressed out. I need to, or, or whatever it is, I'm lonely. I'm bored, or I'm, I'm, I have internalized homophobia. I have whatever shame there is. I want to express myself sexually in an uninhibited way, whatever that is. I'm going to go do meth to get that, which actually compounds the problem later, right? It's the cycle of it. And so I'm saying all that to say, if you're listening, The, for the listeners is that this, it can be overlaid perfectly with chemsex.

Absolutely.

Perfectly with chemsex. Um, this is not just an alcohol, we're talking about Malu's experience as alcohol, but that this, this is exactly the same type of, of situation. Not to mention, every time I do yoga, I'm crying. Like there's something released. Somewhere, you know, and moving around. Um, I've been crying a lot this season of the podcast for some reason, but there's something you are releasing.

Mm-hmm.

And, and if you are, if you've used meth, also what I've heard from, from, um, my clients is that doing yoga also gets it to come out of your pores. It's detoxing you as well. If you want to come down and detox, drink a bunch of water and do some yoga and get your Tissue stretching. It really does. It really does kind of help you move through emotions that you probably don't know how to articulate. You don't know how to put words. I don't know how I feel, but whatever I'm feeling is moving through me. Yep.

You know, so Dallas, so there's, so remember I was talking about the 3, my 3 steps. So that's the first step. I didn't give you a sense because I feel like I'm going to just overwhelm you with Sanskrit words, but the first step is called tapas. So it's tapas literally means fire. It means we are going to cook. Like, I'm going to cook you, right? Like, and so that's where you, I mean, a lot of people might grab, like a lot of people when they first start yoga, they love hot yoga. But there's a reason, there's a particular reason for it. It's because it is a purification process.

Yes.

And like, there's a physical purification. You're Like you said, you're moving your tissues around, like the muscles are moving, the, you know, the sinews are like finding different places they've never been before. And it's like you're wringing out a towel, you know what I mean? Like, it's like all this, all this stuff that was like kind of stuck in there, like you're kind of wringing it out. I know physi— physiology is probably— that's not, it's not as simple as that, but it's like, but it is a purification process from a yogic standpoint because Our patterns are all deeply related. So if you walk in a certain way, there's a reason for that, right? Like your gait, right? The way that you walk, there's a— you are patterned. Or like the way that you brush your teeth in the morning, do you start at the top or are you starting at the bottom? Like my teacher always talks about this as a really good example of a pattern. So it's like there's a reason for that. Like you started doing it that way and you will always do it that way because you developed a pattern.

Yeah.

So it's in this sort of tapas, right? When we're building the heat, we're cooking in the oven that we can start to untangle the patterning. That's where, and I think sometimes people don't realize, like you said, the emotional release, like how much of, like, this is not a real, like, this isn't a real scientific explanation, but a lot of people say our issues are stored in our tissues.

Yes.

You know, science doesn't really play that We don't do science here anyway. Yeah, there's a lot of really good science that doesn't necessarily play this out. But let's talk about the fact that it's like if I had an injury as a child, let's say I broke my arm because I fell out of a tree when I was 5 years old, that injury stays with me for the rest of my life. There is a fracture that healed itself that now is There's scar tissue around it or whatever, and that stays with us. And that's the same on a psychological level where, so in yoga we talk about something called a vasana. So there, it's basically, it's a pattern. That's the easiest way to, but vasanas don't come outta nowhere. They come because there was an initial impression that was made on the psyche.

Right?

I did this one thing and it felt good. And I was able to, to, for, for a momentary, you know, for a moment in my life, I was able to step away from my troubles. I was able to step away from the sadness and the grief, my internalized homophobia, whatever it is, I was able to, I found relief. And now I want that thing again.

Yeah.

Right. So then We go back. So it's like, so these are called samskaras. So if you think of the word scar, that's kind of what's happening. It's like, I created a, I created an opening, a wound, and I'm going to keep opening it until it becomes a pattern, which is a scar.

Hmm.

And so it's like, and that is happening on a psychological level from the yogic perspective, right? That every time we do anything, If we continue to revisit that thing over and over and over again, it eventually becomes a vasana or a pattern. So in, in our, in the yogic methodology, as we, as we move you through various practices, the idea is like, let's start to unwind these patterns so that you aren't stuck repeating the same story over and over again. You know?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly right. And I'm going to get, I'm going to get to everything here, but I want to pick up on what you just said. One of the, one of the things, so my client who loves yoga, he, he also, he does, he will follow through with whatever suggestions I make, which is, which is lovely to have a client like that. Um, but I, I, I explain, I'm explaining this to my clients is that your subconscious is always battling to repeat. It loves the, it loves to repeat. It loves that set in stone kind of every day doing the same thing. You know, this is why like sometimes you drive home and you don't remember driving home or whatever. And you're, it's always, it's comfortable in that predictability. And so patterns, you know, vasanas, patterns, patterns, patterns. So I suggest to my clients, like, you will fall back into relapse patterns. Subconsciously all the time. And a relapse will start weeks, months sometimes. It's all one big pattern, one big vasana, you know, and that, and you will fall into that very easily. So I suggest doing things like getting out of bed on the other side, eating, trying to eat with your left hand, walking backwards, You know, or whatever, something to interrupt the normal pattern because it leaves your subconscious guessing like, oh, what's next? We haven't done this before. And that puts you in charge of your subconscious at that point.

Yep. And you know what? And that's why yoga is so good because you're forcing your body to move in ways that you don't naturally move.

Yeah.

Right. Where it's like, if I have you on your, your legs are like in sort of train tracks, but one leg is forward, one leg is back, and then I have you bend forward and then twist to your right. You don't do— you don't just randomly do that when you're, you know, you're, you're walking down the street. That is not a normal— that's not a normal movement. So actually what you're doing is you're rewiring your brain in the process.

Yeah.

Because when you— every time you are learning some new pose, or, or even if you're learning pranayama, like What you're doing is you are re— you're creating a new pattern, a different pattern, right? And if you couple that with the trigger or the craving, right, where it's like you have a— like you use them as replacement, like a coping skill, right? You use it as a replacement behavior. You are actually— you're suddenly, you're starting to create a new connection where it's like, oh, this thing happens to me and I do this Instead. And then your brain is— and it's like, and I have to promise people all the time because it's like, well, you know what, but tequila is so good. It's like, yes, yes, it is. But, but the thing is, like, it's, it's gonna get you there faster. But the thing is, like, so is, so is sitting down for, for 12 minutes and doing, you know, some breathing and a short meditation.

Yeah.

Like, the level of calm and relief that you can experience is, you know, is it's not going to be comparable, but it's going to be good for you, you know? And so it's like, it's, and it is a practice. And that's where I think you actually do need a little bit of structure and guidance because like when you're not, you know, you're not carrying Dallas around in your, you know, in your pocket 24/7. So you need something else to help you, you know, take those things that you're learning into your life. And that's kind of where yoga You know, it can be helpful. Like you, and one thing, one thing I've tried to do with people is to figure out how can we develop a personal daily practice for you? It can be as little as 7 minutes. Like, I mean, we're not talking about a huge time commitment here, but how can we find a daily practice for you? And it could be any combination of things, a pranayama or a breathing technique and meditation. 3 poses, you know, and coupled with a breathing technique.

Great.

Like whatever, whatever you think is doable in your life, let's start, like, let's develop that thing and then let's start doing that thing and let's create a habit of doing this thing. Because like the other thing too is a lot of people will tell me, oh, I know you said that our, my practice is only 10, should, is only 10 minutes a day, but I ended up doing 45.

Great. Great.

Like, I'm, you know, I'm stoked for that because, like, I would have been happy if you told me you did 10. But the fact that you decided, like, oh, 10 minutes came and went and I still want to keep doing this, like, that's great. You know, that means, like, you are— your brain is starting to find a new pattern. It's creating a new vasana, but it is a positive one, right?

Yeah.

It is life-giving. It gives you the energy to, to be in the world. And it is, you know, hopefully making you a more joyful person, you know, productive person, all of those things too.

And I would think so, because I think it's probably easy to go to yoga and go through the motions too, without intent, without intention.

I was doing that. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And then my guess is it's going to help to have somebody like you though, as well. So I'm doing yoga and I'm processing all this big shit in recovery. It starts to come through. Now you don't have Dallas in your pocket, but it would be nice to have someone with, you know, like you to kind of process and know maybe using more yoga techniques because, you know, the deeper elements you mentioned, The deeper elements of yoga to practice, to process this. Because it is, like you said, it's, there's, I'm sure you, I'm sure you would use breathing. You would do poses to calm the nervous system. You would move through whatever is moving through. Because if you go and do yoga with intention and then all this stuff is coming up and then you're managing on your own, you may find yourself in a dysregulated state then, right?

Yeah. And you know, like when I would teach group classes, I would always have people come up to me at the end and be like, I, you know, all I did was go into child's pose and I just started crying. What's going on? And I was like, well, you're having a release. Like you're having an emotional release. Like, you know, and there was something there on a psychological level that you were holding onto very tightly. And suddenly that you've gotten your nervous system to calm down, gotten the muscles to calm down. Like you were able to have the release, right?

Yeah.

Some people will have, you know, some people like, especially if you're, you're coming from a more like trauma-like background, you might have certain traumatic, you know, I guess like a flashback or even an emotional flashback where it's like the emotions feel like a certain—

Yes.

Harken back to a specific time in your life. But that's where, you know, and a yoga teacher should be able to help you either find self-compassion, like, especially if it's like you're having, you're, you're flashing back to a, to a difficult situation in life, like they should be able to help you find re-regulation in the moment, help you learn, like help you to sit with it.

Mm-hmm.

And then also offer compassion to that part of you that like, that needs love and has never been loved, like to give you that Give you a tool to be able to find that self-compassion. But then, you know, a yoga teacher should also like kind of know our— we know our limits, right? I'm not a therapist. So I'm gonna, you know, there are certain things that I'm gonna say, well, that's something you have to kind of talk through with a therapist, but I can give you skills to be able to sit with those things, right? So, you know, meditation, pranayama, like you know, I've got tools. I'm helping. I can give you tools. And then often what I help people do is, so there's a writing technique I like to teach people where it's like we write our fears and resentments.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like when things come up, things are going on in your life and you feel really dysregulated. One of the things I do is I, and this is a technique that I learned and I give it to people because it really does. I do find that it helps, but it's a, You're basically right. I, you know, I fear that, you know, my partner is mad at me. I fear that I am not good enough. I fear, and, and, and fear here isn't literal. Like I'm scared of something. It's not like a phobia, but it's just, you've like anything that has an emotional charge in your life, you phrase it as a fear. Like I fear I'm going to be like, the bus is going to be late today and I'm going to be late for work. I've, you know, or I resent the bus driver because, you know, I'm, I fear I'm going to be late for work. So you do this work, right? You, and that is one, like you're, you're kind of getting it all out and then you kind of sign this document at the end saying, and now I release my fear, these fears and resentments so that I can take you know, into the world, you know, my best self, or however you personally wanna sign off on it. But it's good to really say, I release this. I don't want this.

Yeah.

And then usually I encourage people to ditch it, like just throw it away, tear it up, whatever, but get rid of it. And that is, and that's a tech— that's one of the techniques I teach. Like I usually teach obviously more detail, but it's like, but once you start to then Do this on your own. Like, this is part of the self-study stuff. Like, you start to see the patterns. Like, my God, I constantly— and I say this to myself all the time— I fear I am not enough, right? Like, that is like a constant. And when you start to notice, like, that's a, that's, that's clearly pointing you to a story.

Mm-hmm.

It's a part of your story, right? And how can you then, like, how can you rewrite that story? Right. And yeah, sorry, there is a little bit of rambling, but yeah, that's the kind of stuff, like if somebody came up to me after a class, like that's the kind of stuff I would be offering, you know?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So for you listening, you heard me talk about, you've heard me talk about journaling a lot. And actually I just had a thought. I need to do a whole podcast on journaling. Um, that, that this is one of the big big benefits of journaling is getting the fears, the resentment, the emotions out of here, out of your mind, all the noise out of everything onto paper. It doesn't, you don't realize how powerful that is until you start doing it. There's something about it releases through your hand. I mean, it releases out of you and putting it on paper and then getting rid of it. Like you said, there is something really I, there is science behind this too, um, with journaling and writing things down, but there is something very powerful about this. And if you're feeling some kind of, I, I, I fucked something up or I'm, you know, um, I've been rejected by whatever because I'm ugly, in an uncensored way, just write all that down.

You know? Yeah.

And that is, that's kind of shadow work, but it's also like, it's moving it out because if you don't, it's going to static and it's going to be static and it's going to filter your thoughts, your behaviors, your words the rest of the day. Getting it out on the paper sometimes just releases it. It really does.

And sometimes, and sometimes I'll be honest with you, sometimes I even do it in the middle of the day. I'll just like, I'm having, you know what I mean? I'm having, I'm stressed out. Like, life is getting hard right now. And I'll just take a minute and like, and I will do my writing. I'll write my fears and resentments. And some people ask me, well, why do you, why are we only doing fears and resentments? Why aren't we doing other emotions? And the thing is, because these are root emotions.

Yeah.

Like resentment is often at the, is, is what is festering underneath anger, right? It's festering underneath your depression. Depression is anger turned in at the self. It is a self-infliction of anger. You know, and, you know, your anxieties are part of— there's underneath it, there's this fear. What is the fear that is causing you to be anxious? Like some people, it's like, oh, well, I'm going to be late for work. Like, that's a fear. Okay, great. But there's something underneath that.

There is.

What's underneath that? I'm going to be late for work. Like, okay, you're scared you're going to get fired.

Yeah.

Okay. So what's underneath? I'm scared I'm going to be fired.

Yeah.

That I'm gonna end up, you know, without a home because I don't have a paycheck. Keep going.

Right.

What are the— and so, and so in this way, like it is journaling, but it's not like you're not trying to figure out your life.

Right.

It's not that kind of journal, right?

Right. Right.

Like I'm just, all I'm doing is naming the emotions.

Yeah.

And getting them out.

Like, Yep.

Yep. Exactly. We're not, we're, this is not self-discovery, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I just talked about that. I think I don't know where it was. There's so many, so much shit. I put out this fuck ton of content. I don't remember where I say things, but there was, I was explaining this, what's underneath that and underneath that and underneath that and underneath that. Yes. Perfect. I love it. Um, okay. I want to talk about your 3, your, I forgot what you call them here, but your, your 3 levels or 3 principles or pillars, but the first one, yeah, triggers cravings. The first one you call, uh, uh, tapas or tapas, tapas, heat. So here's why I call, you know, my program is Recovery Alchemy because alchemy is like, you know, it's the heat that burns off the impurities that brings out, you know, the light inside or the gold inside. What you're saying is so in line with, with my philosophies and my program, and I love it. Um, but That heat of the— you're talking about the heat of the moving of the muscles and, and other type of literal heat too. And it's the heat of work.

Discipline.

Discipline, right? And it's the heat for, for you in chemsex recovery. It's that heat of deciding whether or not to click on Grindr or not, deciding whether or not to, to contact that user buddy, deciding whether or not to Completely disassociate and scroll all night. You know, it's in the heat of that. And when you're triggered, so you're talking about handling the triggers and the cravings. When you are activated is a better word, but triggered, we're going to say, because it's more recognizable. But when you're triggered, that's the heat. That's that heat turning up. And it's there for a reason. It's there to burn off some of those impurities that got you here. But oftentimes with the trigger, we either give into it, right? Or we, we run from it. We suppress it. You know, we try to get our attention off of it, but that heat is sitting in that trigger, sitting in that craving and allowing it to run through your body. That's, and you do feel the heat. You will sweat without yoga, right? But wow, what a, what a way to complement chemsex recovery is to turn the heat up on the mat. As well as setting, learning how to breathe through and sit with triggers and cravings. Did I say all that correctly?

That's great. And you know what? It's, it's exactly, that's exactly right. And you know what's so funny that you said the alchemy piece? So my teacher, Rod Stryker, his method is called Tantra Yoga Alchemy. So it's like, we're like, we're totally aligned here. But you know what? So So one thing that I do, so one thing that builds tapas that people, it's funny because people are like, oh, this is so easy. Like yoga is easy. And I'm like, okay, here's what, what, what happens if I put you, what happens if I put you in a pose and I keep you there for a really long time and I tell you, don't move a muscle.

Yeah.

Don't blink. Don't, you know, like don't make any of these little micro adjustments. Don't lift your big toe. Like, If you note it, like you don't move and people find it so difficult because it's like, how do I hold this pose? But I don't move. Like I can't make a micro adjustment. My neck, it's starting. I'm starting to feel the tension building, right? But I can't move my shoulder. Like the, and that is actually, it's, it's, you're building a skill in that moment.

Yeah.

You are building, you are learning to sit with discomfort. And the thing that I saw as somebody who went to my AA meetings and stuff is I did not like discomfort. I don't want to feel discomfort. I want to escape it. And so learning to sit with your discomfort on your yoga mat is a great— it's like you are the lab rat in the lab, right? You are learning what is bubbling up right now when I am When I am holding this pose because Malu said I have to hold it for another 3 more breaths, like, what's coming up? Notice what's, what is coming, because that is going to inform, that is going to inform what you do in those moments where you said, like, do I open this? Do I open the grinder right now? Or can I sit with this emotion?

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

Can I watch it?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Can I feel A little lonely for 5 minutes, 10 minutes? Can I sit with it? Do I have to immediately— everything's an emergency, it seems, you know, in Kim's— in recovery, it's like, I'm horny, I got to do something. You know, I got to fuck, I got to masturbate, I got to fuck somebody, you know, or I got to jump on Grindr, or I'm lonely, I got to do— it's like, sit in it. Sit in it. That is— It seems too simplified for people because they want this big secret. It's sitting in it.

Yes.

Without, with just observing it, sitting in it. Um, so triggers and cravings was your first part. Self-study was your second part. Your addiction story and your addiction frequency.

Exactly.

Let me just say, what is, are you in the frequency of an addict? And this is, I say this all the time, is ask yourself, are you behaving as this person who uses meth? Are you in the frequency? Or have you bought into, I am an addict? Because if I'm just, if I'm an addict, I'm going to act like one. I'm going to think like one. I'm going to talk like one. I'm going to be one. Right? So I, what is your frequency? Is it, I am somebody who uses meth or is it somebody who doesn't use meth? And, and What are the characteristics of somebody who uses meth? Inconsistency, non-responsive, um, dishonest. Those are the top 3 I can think of. Um, disrespectful to their family and friends. Um, and, and, and so are you showing up as that? Meaning inconsistency, consistent daily action. You talked about a personal daily Practice. 10 minutes, 7 minutes, whatever. 3 poses in 7 minutes. A consistent daily practice. Consistency means I'm acting like somebody who doesn't use meth. Responsiveness, being open about my cravings and my triggers. Um, showing up on time, you know, being there, showing, showing up for myself. Like, dishonest. Are you being completely vulnerable and transparent?

Yeah.

So this is, uh, what frequency are you in? I've never used the word frequency because it, people get, think I'm woo woo anyway, but you know, this is such a good word.

Vibration.

Vibration. Are you in the vibratory place of somebody who uses or not? Ask yourself that all day long.

And you know, Dallas, like, And it's a, there's an addiction frequency, but there's all kinds of other frequencies. And we pick up on, we pick up on these frequencies whenever we are in, in touch with somebody. There's the nervous frequency and you can just tell, oh, this is a nervous person. This person is, is just, she, she's, she's very, she, she's anxious about everything. So, and that is a, can be a natural baseline. I'm not saying that there's anything like necessarily like good, bad, or indifferent about those frequencies. But then figuring out that you want to vibrate at a different frequency. And what is that frequency? And it's— I like the way that you tie it to behaviors where it's like, you know what, like there's a frequency that is honest. There's a frequency that shows up and is disciplined and is like, has a time every single day that he does his sitting, you know, for 7 minutes.

Yeah.

And he never misses He never misses his sitting, right?

Yep.

And it's like, you know, I'm sorry guys. I, you know, I have, I'm gonna be 15 minutes late because I have to sit and do my meditation first.

Yeah. And which is another one.

Do you wanna be that person?

I would. Yeah.

I, that's the person I wanna be, you know? That's right.

That's right. Which is another characteristic I forgot. Boundaries. When you're using meth, you have no fucking boundaries.

Love it.

Right? If you're somebody who doesn't use meth, you have boundaries. Sorry guys, I can't come out tonight. You know, because like you said, all right, I'm gonna be late. You know, just boundaries about this is, this is what I tolerate. This is what I don't tolerate. This is what I do and what I don't do, that kind of thing. Um, and, and I don't say yes when I mean no, those type of behaviors, right?

And I think the self, the other piece of that, uh, and it ties into the identity piece, is like trying to identify, it is a, it's a boundary issue where it's like, What things are you, are you just like, you just won't cross that line anymore? Like, even if other people are doing it, are you willing to sacrifice like a momentary discomfort of telling someone no so that you can stick to the vision that you have of what your life is going to be? You know?

Yeah. Yes. So identity is your third. And I've seen you comment on some of my content.

All the time, Dallas. I'm in your comments all the time.

When I'm talking about this prophetic vision, like you said, who are you becoming? Who are you becoming? Who do you want to be? This is the thing I just, I, this is the foundation of my program. And I think the foundation of any, it is where it starts and you don't think it starts here, but how do you show up after you're finished with meth? What does your life look like? Sit down and get into the state you mentioned between waking and sleeping. I call it twilight state.

Love it.

Get into that state and start to imagine what is a, what is the perfect day for me? What is the dream that I have? Where am I? How am I dressed? What do I look like? Who am I with? What do I live in? Where am I? And what is the state of consciousness? How does that feel? I'll bet that it— I'll bet the first thing you want to feel is peace.

Mm-hmm.

You want to feel content. You want to feel love for yourself, right? Feel all of that. But who am I becoming? How do I show up? If you don't know where you're going, You're not going to move forward. And so many of you, so many guys though have been using for 10 years, 20 years. They don't know life besides meth is part of their ecosystem. But the thing is, is that it's hard to imagine, but you can't be a new identity unless you start to imagine what that viscerally connect to who that new identity is. Yeah.

And you know what I tell people too, is it's you You are already that thing, right? When I have you develop a sankalpa, you are writing about someone who already exists.

He's there.

He's just not, he's just not in charge. He's back here, right? Because like, I'm not, I'm not inventing a life where I'm saying I'm going to have a million dollars. I wear Versace suits and I'm, you know, I know like that, that is totally not, has no relation to who I am.

Yeah.

But when I create a sankalpa about the kind, or you call it vision, when you create that vision, that vision is actually an authentic person that exists.

Yes.

He is you. And all you have to do is somehow allow him to step forward. You have to get the addictive self to move out of the way, which is all that other stuff we talked about, tapas. And you're, um, and, and doing your, your self, self-reflection so that you can get him to step out of the way, and then you allow that authentic stuff to step forward.

Yeah.

And so it's like you are like, it's, I call it being and becoming. Being because you are already perfect.

Yep.

But becoming because you are stepping into something that is even more perfect. Yes.

Right?

Like you are on a process of evolution.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. I call it my perfected self, my best and highest self, right?

Yes, exactly.

Highest self. Highest self. And I tell my clients, you know, I think it goes over some people's heads or they ignore it or I feel I sound kooky, but sometimes I have to borrow energy from him because to me, he's already faced what I'm facing. And sometimes I prayed to him and I'll say, like, I don't know what to do here. Yeah. But I'm open to an answer from you. Yeah. That's my higher self, which is me. The perfected version of me is my higher self.

Right.

My higher power.

And you want him in charge.

Right.

You know, and he's not always in charge because we are human beings and we have, we put on masks, we put up, we take on, um, Habits. We, you know, we've gone, we've been through a life.

Right. Which are those impurities, right? The impurities, the habits, the beliefs, the intrusive thoughts, like all of that shit that's been given to us, put on us by the world without our consent. And so this work of life is burning that off and peeling that off so we can have our true self back. It's really a return, a return to home, to return to self.

Right. So I just want to like, yeah. And I, so the thing I always, so I do, I do a lot of work within the heart. And so in yogic philosophy, there is this idea of Jyotir, which is like, if you imagine a flame at the center of your chest, or sometimes it's described as a pearl or a pinprick of light, like a star in your chest. That is the Jyotir means the light that is beyond all sorrows. And that is your true identity. Your true identity is this light that is beyond all sorrows. And so our work is to connect with the light that is beyond all that dwells in all of us. Like, you know, or if you want to be woo-woo, we are all stardust, right?

Right.

But it's like, how do I, how do I get Myself aligns with, like you said, the high, that highest self, right?

Yes. And finally, you mentioned mantras or something, some word you said, nidra or something.

Sankalpa.

Okay. Sankalpa. Yeah. So listen, guys, if you don't know what else to do, if you don't know how to, what to pray or to meditate, or you don't, you're having trouble coming up with a vision. Use a mantra and it could be very simple. I am someone who is chemsex free. All you have to say. And here's the thing is then when you say it, you have to be certain that it's going, that your desire, I'll, I, this is what I believe. I believe any desire you have has, it can only be in existence if there's a way to it. If there's a path to that desire. If that's my true desire to become chemsex-free, the path to that is laid out for me. In that path could be a relapse or 2 or 3. That could be part of the path to get to where I want to go. But I think it's our job to trust that everything is working in our favor. And I am somebody who is chemsex-free, no matter what the 5 senses tell me. That's who I am. That's my, my—

Oh, I love that.

Yes.

And it's, and I, I, it's right. And you know what, like, actually, if anyone takes anything from this, like, after this podcast is over, go write your own sankalpa, make it present tense, you know, sit down and think about that vision of that person that you want to be and write a sentence that is aligned with that person. Right? What does that— how does that person move through the world? I am joyful and I make choices out of compassion for myself and others.

I—

what, you know, and these can be very simple, but have it be something that you repeat to yourself. Put it on a Post-it, stick it on your mirror so you have to look at it when you brush your teeth. Repeat it to yourself when you see yourself in the mirror. I am beautiful and I, I make choices that reflect my beauty. Yeah.

Yeah.

Do and incorporate in it actually. And then another thing that I tell people to do is as you're falling to sleep every night, as you're falling to sleep, because you're going to reach that state, right? That state before you fall asleep, which is where it reaches the subconscious. And if you are repeating your mantra or your sankalpa, whatever you want to affirmation, you're repeating it to yourself as you fall asleep. That's, that's a beautiful way to fall asleep. Because it's, you're going to seed it into the subconscious.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. My, my client who loves yoga is going to love this because he, he took his, he took his prophetic vision from the program and he has it on his bathroom mirror and he has it up here and here. So he's in the middle of it. And then when he travels, he puts it in the bathroom mirror of his hotels.

Love it.

Very dedicated and very successful in the, in the program. So, Malou, wow.

Wow.

This was, uh, this was deep. This was great. I love this discussion. This gave me energy. Um, and so did I leave anything out though? Did I forget anything? Is there something that you wish we had talked about that we didn't?

Um, no, I think that that covers a lot of it. I think, you know, yoga, however you can find it, like, go toward it. Like, take a class at your local studio. You can also find me on Instagram. I actually have a free mini course, which I offer on my Instagram if you just want to take a taste of some practices. And it's like, it's a 4-video, you can binge it in, you know, less than an hour and get on your way in developing your personal practice.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Please go follow Malu on Instagram. And, you know, it's interesting that one of the, one of the reels That's pinned here is talking about 5 poses for loneliness instead of going to the bar. Um, but who knew you're lonely at home, do some yoga moves, you know, release it, move it around.

Exactly. Journal. Like, there's so much you can do.

Move your body. Don't turn on Netflix or porn or TikTok or do this first.

Do this first and then— at least do this first. Yeah. Like do this first and then see how you feel, you know?

Exactly right. You're exactly right. Because you do something, you, you do something you need to do to do something you want to do. Oftentimes that works. But if you do, if you did some yoga first and you got out of and released some shit, then when you get on TikTok or get on social media, you're, you're probably looking through it at that point through a different lens.

Yeah, you changed your frequency, right?

Yeah, frequency. Yes, that's right. There it is. There it is again. Uh, thank you for being here.

I really appreciate it. All right, Dallas, I will be in your comments often, early and often.

I'm gonna get into yours. I'm gonna get into yours. I, yeah, um, I want to scroll more to— nobody ever, you know, nobody ever said that, right? Um, I do want to scroll more. I've just been Creating, creating, creating, and not consuming.

I know. So it's a, it's a whole job in itself.

Never ending. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you're, uh, want to make a comment, please comment on Spotify or YouTube. Contact me directly. I'm everywhere at all times. And, uh, please, you could also contact Malou and we'll put his, uh, Instagram and contact information in the show notes. All right. Have a great day. See you next week.