EP 3:23 Dating App Hygiene in Chemsex Recovery with Mike

It's just really about developing a healthier relationship with, with your sex, and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from your using days. And really looking at who am I now as a sober sexual gay man or bi man?

Yeah. And how do we find that out? Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for being here. Appreciate you listening. We just, we celebrated a milestone in the month of May, over 50,000 downloads. Thank you very much. We are at over 1,000 downloads a week right now. And just to give you an idea, when we first started, we were at probably 100 to 200 downloads a week. So over 2 years now, a little over 2 years, we've We've really, really increased. We've really grown. Really glad to see that. And thanks to you guys who have rated and reviewed the podcast and continue to download it. You're telling the algorithm that we like this. Um, and so thank you so much for your support. Don't forget, there's a supplemental study guide with every episode. The link will be in the show notes if you're interested. Just click on there if you want to take a deeper dive in what we're talking about. And what are we talking about? What we're talking about today is app Hygiene, and specifically with Grindr. We'll probably touch on the other ones too. But, you know, if you watch my content, you're going to hear me say a lot about block Grindr, block access to Grindr. And I do believe in early chemsex recovery, that is necessary. I don't think it, you know, I've had some clients come through the program who didn't block Grindr from their phone. And I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying not have it on your phone. I'm saying put a block on your phone so that you cannot access it. There's a difference, right? But, but what do you do for the rest of your life? Do you, do you stay Grindr-less? And in the world we're living in, it's moving more and more to geosocial dating apps as the way to meet people. We have clubs, clubs and bars shutting down all over the place because people aren't meeting people in person anymore. So what can we do with this? So today we're going to talk to an expert about this, Michael Power. So Mike is an addiction counselor with over 15 years of experience working with chemsex, sexual compulsive behaviors, trauma, and LGBTQ mental health. He has worked in LGBTQ+ rehabilitation centers in Thailand, Supporting individuals navigating addiction, identity, intimacy, and recovery within a compassionate trauma-informed environment. Mike is passionate about reducing stigma and encouraging honest, informed conversations around crystal meth use, sexuality, mental health, and recovery. Love the sound of all of that. Mike, welcome to the show.

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Dallas. Thank you for inviting me.

Yeah, well, we met on LinkedIn, and I was— I have really enjoyed reading your articles that you've been posting. Really good stuff centered around chemsex. But specifically, I noticed you were talking about Grindr and app hygiene and like basically saying, look, if you're going to be on it, here's how to do it. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with chemsex and How you got here.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, um, I'm Mike. Uh, pleased, pleased to meet you. Um, my experience in chemsex, actually, I was doing meth because I don't think it was actually called chemsex, um, back, back in those days. It was just chem, chem, chem. It was just methamphetamine. And I was actually using it in the United States and, um, Australia. Um, I actually started my own journey of recovery In Los Angeles and went to treatment in Australia, and then when I came back to London, there was methadone, which I don't believe is that big in the United States. But crystal meth was just starting to come onto the scene. I wanted to save London from this evil addiction that was going around America and Australia, and was going to do this big campaign just to raise everybody's awareness. And of course, I never had the skills to. do that. But I did meet a wonderful guy who coined the term Chemsex.

Yeah.

And his name is David Stewart. He's no longer with us, unfortunately. And I did some training with him. Then I started volunteering in an LGBT drug and alcohol service there, you know, just making teas, coffees. Then I started doing assessments. Honestly, it was like a war zone because nobody really knew anything about crystal meth or GHB back then.

Yeah.

So people were really presented in quite chaotic states. However, for me, because I was looking for work, I was like, you know, I'm quite, I'm actually okay at this. So, but what I also realized was actually, you know, it's very complex and I was working with very vulnerable people. So then went off and studied and went to university and studied to be an addiction counselor. And that's kind of how I ended up where I am now, and that was 15 years ago. Yeah. Wow.

15 years. 15 years. So what have you seen as the biggest change over this 15 years?

I think just education is the biggest thing. People are more informed where they never used to. It was a really new phenomenon because the apps were just kind of coming into play then. So it's like the perfect storm, really. And You know, intravenous use was never really a thing in the gay community, and it was becoming sexualized. And there was a massive rise, of course, in Hep C. PEP was around back in those days, but PrEP wasn't. HIV rates also skyrocketed. So I think probably what I've seen mostly now is that people are more informed around how to take the drugs. If they inject, they know how to inject safely. If they take GHB, they know it's a dose safe. I do believe that it's probably reducing a little bit in severity from an addiction perspective, but I'll be quite honest with you, because I'm not working frontline anymore, you know, when I was frontline, I was really in the chaos. I'm a little bit out of the loop in what's actually happening.

Okay.

And I don't, obviously don't engage in that world myself.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The education, that's, it's interesting to me when gay, gay men will comment on my social media and say, what is this? Is there a meth problem in the, in the gay community? I'm like, where the fuck have you been? Like, how, how can you not know? Because I will say any, mostly I would say 99% of people that I meet If you're a gay man, you know somebody who has had a meth problem or you've had one.

Yeah.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like that. But I'm just really shocked by the people that don't understand it or don't know it or still, still getting into it these in 2026, still don't know what it is when the pipe's handed to them. Do you see that?

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also a sex problem, isn't it? You know, and I think that's why the term. Chemsex is good because they become fused together. It almost becomes one problem. And when we take the drugs out of the equation, and we do have to work on the psychosexual piece as well, which is really important. Hence why I write about the erotic desire cycle and app hygiene. It's more really that second stage of treatment, you know, where you've kind of put the drugs aside, but now you're reintegrating a healthy, sober sexuality. Yeah. That's often where people slip up because it's frightening, right? When, if I've used a drug to facilitate my sex for many, many years, then re-engaging in sexual activity is incredibly frightening. So we have to kind of tippy-toe into that really.

Yes. Yes. So that's definitely number one question I get, number one hurdle that I see too. Um, and really kind of what's missing from my own program, which is why I'm working on my sexologist My sexology certificate is to try to get in there and help with this. Um, so, but you're right. So let's say you get away from the substance, you get some momentum, you've got some recovery going, and now I want to have sex.

Right.

Um, so let's talk about 2 things here. So you talked about an erotic desire cycle. Just for a side note for those listening, where would I get How would I start that process?

It's interesting because like you, I was also stuck with that because my training is in addiction and I'm very good at relapse prevention, triggers, urges, you know, all those skills. But when it came to the second stage of treatment of how do I now reintegrate sex of my choosing, and that's the important bit, is that I actually went and did a psychosexual course myself. And it was when I was doing that course, I'd actually thought, actually, okay, I think I'm getting it. And I, and I'll be honest with you, just also from my own personal experience of intimacy, I was kind of being a little bit experiential. I was like, oh, okay. So if we have the first, the first bit of the erotic desire cycle is really just connection because connection equals safety. And it's, it's really also important when we're talking about connection, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for a partner. It can actually just mean connection. So I'm being transparent. These are my needs. I'm not looking for a quick hookup. I'm looking for longevity and not quick. I like to do this and I like to do that. And maybe actually, if I don't feel safe, maybe we're not going to have sex right there and then. Or maybe actually it is the opposite. Maybe I want to meet for a coffee. Um, first, and if we gel, then maybe we can meet again, but I'm not gonna have sex until I feel safe.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. So do you coach men on how to have that conversation?

Um, I, I would, especially, especially in group work. I, I did the erotic desire cycle. I mean, it's interesting because when you first start to explain it, most, most people's go-to is, well, I don't want a boyfriend.

Right.

I was like, but, but is, is talking about boyfriends, this is really just about creating safety because when I have safety, then, then I can get erotic desire. Because if we think about meth and sex and what it was facilitating, even though it's very toxic, it was facilitating safety.

Uh-huh.

It was facilitating confidence. It was facilitating me being able to Talk and communicate and not to be scared just to have sex. When we take meth out of the equation, then we have to look at an alternative way of kind of finding safety. And unfortunately, that takes a lot longer than just obviously putting a pipe in your mouth.

Right, right. Meth is the ultimate shortcut to all of this, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I see a lot of men They, they're DMing me or I talk to them or they're on the, or on social media and they'll say, it's been 10 years. I've been, you know, sober 10 years, but I've never had sex. Or 15 years. I don't even, you know, I don't even want to try to have sex. And they, they don't believe that it's possible. Or they'll say, I'll never have Tina sex again. So why have sex?

Right.

Right. But what a way to live. To just accept that.

Well, that's what I mean about the fear part of it, that when we take the drugs out of the equation, it is a real fear. Yeah, it's a fear. I don't know how to do this.

Yeah.

And actually, can I find a person that's going to be patient enough with me so I can do this and understand my need for safety?

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think we need a chemsex surrogate partner program, like a rent man. But right, but with chemsex, somebody that gets the assignment and knows how to provide the space for the man to explore that.

Yeah. Well, what is it? It's interesting here in the UK. There was an article a few years back. I'm not sure it's even online anymore. And it was about sex workers, escorts. One article was really about the sex working community getting addicted to meth.

Yes.

Which they are. It's quite big in that community. And one article around a sex worker that found recovery and got sober, who was actually providing the service for other people that are engaged in recovery. So almost like a sex therapy, but kind of hands-on sex therapy. Personally, I thought it was a wonderful service.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I mean, I have a client who I've, I've suggested go to rent men. I mean, you know, there's plenty of them that don't use here. I mean, there's some that say no PNP, no, no drugs or whatever. But look, you get to, there's no strings attached. There's no pressure. If you come, you come. If you get hard, you get hard. That's the kind of environment you want. And then you, they get to, they're, they're gonna do what you tell 'em to do.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so, and he's like, well, I don't want to pay for sex. And I was like, well, you're actually paying for a recovery service, right? You can see it that way.

Yeah. I mean, it's really challenging because, because here in the UK, you know, meth is really, really big amongst the sex workers.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is here too. But okay, so this Erotic desire cycle, we're talking about connection equals safety. And like you said, like, I don't want a boyfriend. It's like when you mentioned the word intimacy, I get that a lot too. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to, uh, be vanilla with a man. I don't want to be cuddly. Like intimacy doesn't, it doesn't have to mean vanilla cuddles, right?

No, absolutely. Because what you're doing theoretically is creating the safety first because that's where the connection comes in. You're creating the safety to enjoy whatever sexual experience you wish to have, you know, whether that is vanilla or whether that's kink or BDSM. It doesn't matter. But what you're doing is creating safety. What's nice about the Erotic Desire Cycle, my experience of working with men when they come in recovery is that when they do engage in sex, it's just really, really disappointing.

Yeah.

It's too quick. It's over in 5 minutes. And actually, that can create a trigger in itself. You know, what was the point? Why did I spend an hour prepping for this like 5-minute wonder? So this idea that we're only capable of having one orgasm, and with the erotic desire cycle, it's actually aimed at, if you wish, that you have more than one orgasm, because once we orgasm, then we release oxytocin. And if you hang around long enough and you don't jump out of the bed or the sling, wherever you are, and kind of push yourself down and run out the door and say, thank you very much.

Right.

And actually allow yourself to be a little bit vulnerable, then a secondary erotic desire can occur. And then that creates a longevity to the experience, right? Because this is where I got stuck. when trying to think, how can we work through this in recovery from a sexual perspective? Is that for a lot of people, it is around the connection and the longevity and actually the drug-induced intimacy, right? So how do we recreate that?

Yeah.

Tyson is a wonderful chemical that gets released as long as we don't block it with shame. If we block it with shame, then it kind of blocks it. And that's when a person like post-orgasm, like, thank you, running out the door. I call it the gay shame, right?

Right.

And it's very unconscious, but it's that uncomfortability that when you've orgasmed, it's almost like coming down off a drug, isn't it? You hit reality. But if you can stay in the experience long enough and really utilize the oxytocin, then you can have a secondary or even a third erotic arousal if it's a good day, right? And then you can leave there thinking, actually, that was a really nice experience, right? It wasn't empty. It wasn't over in 5 minutes. I actually got connection. I had great, great sex. And it doesn't matter if I'm not going to see that person ever again. I'm laying there thinking, you know what, that was good. And I'm not high and it's now come down. I feel good about myself.

Yeah. Yeah, there's, it's interesting that there's so much shame around sex anyway. You know, after the, after your chemsex experience, it seems like a lot of men are thinking that sex at all is shameful. You find that? Yeah.

Yeah, it's a difficult one, isn't it? I mean, what, what are your thoughts on treatment though? Because, you know, I, I do, I, I do get a sense that, you know, you know, a lot of gay men go to a generic or very heteronormative treatment centers. It's, it's almost like the therapist in there will demonize sex. Yes. And it's almost like now you have to be clean. The word clean, which I don't mind personally, but it's symbolic.

I don't like it. Yeah.

It's symbolic. You have to remain clean and you have to have a boyfriend and you have to live like this because that's what recovery is all about. Right. Where really we should adopt a more sex-positive attitude and actually say, you know what, sex is wonderful, it's beautiful, and you can enjoy it. It's just important that you're not putting drugs in the equation and you're not using it in a compulsive nature.

Right, right, exactly. No, I, I think we throw around, because a lot of the men that I, that are in the program and that I talk to, they assume they're, they have a sex addiction, you know, coming out of their chemsex addiction because they had all this sex. And, you know, it, and they'll say like, oh, my sex addiction is being triggered. When you phrase it and frame it as sex addiction, then yes, sex will be something that's bad. That's the enemy. That's, that's something else I'm addicted to. And you're, what's hypersexual to one is not to the other either.

Yeah.

I think it's so individual.

Yeah. And I think we have to look at the nature of chemsex as well. You know, in my experience, there's 2 sides of the camp. There's those that would use meth to facilitate the sex, and there's those that would use meth to just get wasted, right?

Yeah.

But regardless of why they're using it, because of the way meth works, it creates hypersexuality in most people. I almost kind of imagine the drug and the sex like 2 copper wires that are being fused together. And then we have to kind of untangle that. So we're going to put the drugs out of the equation. They just have to go. Right. But the sex, it's just really about developing a healthier relationship with, with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from your using days and really looking at who am I now as a sober sexual gay man or bi man.

Yeah. And how do we find that out?

Food processing, really. I think really from a treatment perspective, as you said when you opened up the session, I agree with you 100%, by the way. In the early days, it's just, if it's going to be a trigger and you can avoid it, just avoid it.

Yeah, right.

Don't put it there. Let's just stabilize. Often when I talk to my clients, I want to understand why. Why has this happened to me? And I was like, well, listen, right? Here in London, we have big tower And I say, you know, one of the tower blocks here in London, if that was kind of leaning over about to collapse, you probably need to stabilize it first, right?

Right.

So it's not going to collapse.

Right.

Metaphorically, what I'm saying is like, we need to stabilize. Let's get the nuts and bolts sorted. Let's get the drugs out of the equation and then let's start refurbishing the floors bit by bit. But we can't refurbish the floors Until it's totally stable. So what I'm trying to say really, Dallas, is that first section of treatment is stabilization. Second part of treatment is answering all those questions. Who am I now? What am I doing? What is my meaning? What is my purpose in this life? Who am I as a sexual being? What is it that I want? And how do I do that? And that's where a therapist would come in hand or peers or—

Yeah.

You know, a program of some sort, a recovery program, you know, really finding yourself, but it's really a tippy-toe process, isn't it? You're not going to be diving in the deep end before you can even swim.

Right. Yeah, it is a tippy-toe. I kind of, I mean, it's almost like walking through a minefield. It feels like sometimes because you kind of don't know what is going to trigger you. You have to be very cautious about, let me try a little bit of this. Let me try a little bit of that. Let me fantasize about that. Let me watch, you know, let me— and what's your take on pornography then, early on?

It's a difficult one, isn't it, with the pornography? For me, because, you know, when I'm working with clients, I will go through masturbation. I think masturbation is very important in the process, but masturbation as a relapse prevention tool. Not necessarily masturbation for the luxury of masturbation. It's more about kind of keeping the hormones to a low enough stage so they're not acting as a trigger. But then how do we masturbate? What do we masturbate to? What fantasy do we masturbate? In my experience, often the guys I work with, their fantasy will go to historical chemsex experiences and they really struggle with that. So, With porn, if it needs to be done, then use it. But then it's really important that you're not kind of watching the same type of pornography that you would have been watching in a chemsex party, for instance. And there is a phenomenon out there, even with people in recovery, that is almost this morbid curiosity that they will go to chemsex porn or slamming porn. And that's incredibly dangerous because you pretty much relapse at that stage, right?

Yeah.

So to answer your question without going around the mountains is preferably no, no porn, but that's a tug of war, as you can imagine. But if you do use it, make sure it's not the same type of porn that you're using when you're using chemsex. Use it for what you need it for, get the job done, and close it. Basically, that's straightforward.

Yeah, yeah. I think it can be used too for a good way to explore what What is in your erotic template now to pursue, right? Like I use the example of fisting all the time, but so let's say I was not into fisting before meth. I got into it during chemsex and now I want to see, is fisting something I want to pursue? Right. So I think if you, if you're masturbating or wanking, as you guys call it, wanking, masturbating, jerking off, whatever. If you're masturbating and you masturbate to a porn of fisting or a sober scenario in your mind of fisting and it takes, keeps taking you back to chemsex urges, then that's probably something you don't want to keep reinforcing that. You want to stay away from that. Is that right?

Yes. Yes. Preferably. I mean, I always used to give the example because, you know, with sex and food, it's very similar. They're both very primal. You will know when you need to release the same way as you know when you need to eat, right?

Yeah, okay.

So it's really about recognizing my urges because sex in itself can get fused into a self-soothing mechanism, as can pornography, compulsive pornography. We just have to be mindful of what I call the Russian doll syndrome. You know the Russian dolls where you take one out and it's like, oh my gosh, I might not be doing chemos, but I'm spending like 5 hours watching porn every night. That, that, that, that's the problem.

Yeah.

If, if I'm, if I'm using the porn for what it is, you know, I just need a release. I need a sexual release. I need to get to orgasm. Boom. Done.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, so I want to get to the topic. I think this is good information. So in this second stage, We're working on our erotic desire cycle, and then we're gonna try to reintroduce apps, right? So do you suggest when the app is reintroduced, we're talking about Grindr or Sniffies or any of the, I guess the websites too, like, well, you wanna, you don't wanna go to the other, some of those bareback sites. Grindr or Sniffies, let's say. If you're, would you reintroduce that into your recovery? Do you suggest having a safety plan first? Like some, some, yeah. What do you do? How do you help your men do that?

Yeah. So, you know, when I worked in treatment, when I worked in the residential treatment center, um, everything I've just talked about was delivered as part of the treatments and would go in the treatment, including masturbation as a relapse prevention tool, app hygiene. What we would do in treatment is actually get them to design Their app. What profile name are you going to use? What does your profile name say about you? What picture are you going to use? What does your dialogue say? What does your dialogue say about you? Are you going to say that you're sober? What are your safety mechanisms? Can you automatically block? What are you actually looking for? Again, you know, the second stage is like, what am I looking for? You know, because everybody's different. Some people say, you know what, Mike, you know, I'm, I've done it. I'm exhausted with, you know, I've had so much sex. I, I just wanna date and hopefully I wanna find a partner. Great. Wonderful. And, and some people say to me, you know what, Mike? You know, I love sex and I love kinky sex. I just don't wanna be doing the drugs anymore. Well, I still wanna enjoy the sex. Okay, let's explore that. How are you gonna do that? So that, that will also be of what kind of app am I gonna go on?

Yeah.

You know, if I'm looking to date, for instance, Grindr's probably not the best site, right? Maybe I prefer to go on Tinder.

Yeah.

Which is also a little bit safer, right? From a kind of here and now perspective. But if I'm looking to enjoy casual sex, maybe Grindr is that. But then you've got to be really hypervigilant. You've got to put it out there and make it very clear. You know, because obviously when people are high, they also don't read, right?

Exactly.

They're just looking at pictures. So you often see on Grindr, people put read profile with a little arrow down. Read, read, read, read the profile. But also kind of acknowledging the reasons that you're on there. You know, am I actually looking for sex right now? Or am I just lonely or bored? Am I looking for validation? What are my reasons for being here? How am I feeling mentally and emotionally right now? Is this a safe place? Is it safe for me to be on here? What time of day am I using it? You know, it can be dangerous at all times of the day. However, after 10 PM, for instance, it's a bit more dangerous, right? Or very early in the morning from 4 to 6. So really pulling it to pieces, you know, really kind of looking at that. In the treatment center, everybody basically, I mean, this is a pretty much just designed. We'd have pictures and everything. So when they left treatment, they knew exactly what their app was going to look like when they decided to get to that stage. And the same with masturbation. Before they left treatment, they knew how often they're going to masturbate, what fantasy they're going to masturbate to.

Oh, okay.

Very, very structured, which was nice with the treatment center because it was an LGBT treatment center. We had a Chemsex track. was that's one of the benefits of not being in a generic heteronormative treatment center, that we can really explore those sides to it without shaming it or demonizing it.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So taking extra time to design what your app looks like, maybe, maybe one of your pictures can be you holding up a One of those key tags from the 12 steps, clean and serene or something.

Well, I mean, personally, I mean, just, just, you know, like also kind of making— we don't have to make it so serious, right? It can be— well, to be a little bit of an activist, you know, sober is sexy with a little muscle on, right?

Yeah, right.

Sober is hot. No HSH, no pre-op.

Right, right.

So really, really trying to make it a little bit fun, but with a very serious message there.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, but, but also really having that bit. I think the important bit is, does a person feel confident enough that if somebody sends them a message saying, 5 of us playing, high and horny, do you want to join us? That they can just go block. Right.

Right.

Because that's the important bit.

How do you know if you're ready for that?

I don't think you ever really know you're ready. I mean, personally, what I would do is give a timeframe. 6 months, I personally believe, is preferable to allow you to stabilize from the drugs and defuse. But most people will really struggle, in my experience, to say 6 months. So most people go 3 months. And, and that's, that's a good start at least.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. There's probably some questions to ask yourself. You know, what are, you know, what are your true intentions? Right. Yeah. To get on there. Um, that's, uh, do you give any other advice? So look at your profile name, maybe have some fun. What kind of pictures do you have? Um, what is the, what do you have to say down there in terms of the description and your name? Do you have sober in it? Yeah, anything else there that you guide the guys around in terms of app hygiene?

I mean, it's difficult because I'm a therapist, so I would be working with them and preferably what I would be doing with them in that second stage of treatment is almost kind of mentoring them through that experience, right? So they're not just going solo and going on the apps. It's something that can be discussed in a therapy room as well. But not everybody is in therapy. So if you've got a coach, if you've got a sponsor, whoever is your support system in your recovery, utilize them. Don't do it solo and don't do it in shame either. Talk about it.

Yeah.

Don't do it in secrecy. It needs to be spoken about. It needs to be normalized. It's okay, but be supported in that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

That's a good point. I mean, no, I have clients that'll come and say, you know, they, they'll come and they either use or they're shaken up and they're like, you know, well, I got back on Grindr last night and this happened and that happened. And I'm like, why didn't, why did you do that and not tell any— tell me, you know, and you didn't tell, you didn't tell your sponsor, you didn't tell your team, you didn't tell the other clients in our chat. Like, I don't, it's not something like you're saying, it's not, don't do it in secrecy. Don't do it without telling anybody, like get, get, make it, make sure that you're protected. Make sure there's a safe space and that people know to check in on you too. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. Because just the fact that that's happening is a little bit of a warning sign, isn't it? The fact that I'm feeling the need, needing to do that in secrecy for whatever reason, whether that's shame or I feel like I'm going to be judged. Um, or criticize, it's a little bit of a red flag and I need to stop, pause, and just ask myself why I'm doing that.

That's right. That's right. Exactly right. Yeah. Why did I do that? What am I really looking for? Um, so I wanted to show you a little model that I have and just get your advice on it. Um, I didn't show you this. I'm going to get your, your real-time reaction here. Let me share it. Let me share it on the screen. If you're watching, Which, by the way, you can watch this now on Apple Podcasts too. Um, okay, here we go. Okay. So this is a little mo— little model that it's, it looks, it looks complicated, but it really isn't. So before you open the app, so the phone is in your hand, pause. So am I on autopilot? Which means, you know, am I reacting to getting rejected? Did a guy ghost me?

Mm-hmm.

Am I feeling really lonely and desperate? Like, am I on autopilot? So don't open that. So once you try to open the app, wait 90 seconds. Ask yourself, where am I? Why am I clicking on this app right now?

Yeah. So.

You name the need. You know, what am I seeking? Do I, am I seeking connection? Do I need somebody to validate me because I'm feeling ugly? Am I trying to, am I trying to escape my world right now? Right. If those are the reasons, can I meet them another way? Right. So if I can meet them another way, yes, do it. Uh, and then, but If I can't meet them another way, then continue. So that's when it goes into the conscious decision of checking in with yourself. You know, are you feeling empowered, which would be clear, sober, and stable, or are you feeling desperate? Like, is there a sense of urgency? Like, I gotta fuck right now, or I got some— somebody needs to tell me I have a big dick right now, right? Like, am I escaping? Am I measuring? Am I at risk? So if you're in a desperate state, if there's like an instant gratification type energy, stop. Don't open the app or close the app, whatever it is, but just feel that for 90 seconds. And then if you do end up opening it, do you have a time limit? Set a timer somewhere. Or, you know, you could be on Grindr for 3 hours before you know it. So how long do you want to be on it? Let's plan that ahead and have an exit plan. So if I'm triggered, There's, if I, if I even click on a profile that has H and H or P and P or an emoji that means partying, if I even just click on it, I need to tell somebody right away, I just clicked on this profile, close, close the app. Um, and then if, and then you can use it. What do you think about this?

I really like it. I really like it. I like the unconscious and I like the conscious because if we think about the nature of impulsivity, It's usually because the prefrontal cortex is narrowed and I'm working on my emotional brain, which means I don't have that ability to really think it through. So by having those kind of stop, pause, and breathe and just ask yourself some simple questions, it's a really, really good intervention. I like it a lot, Dallas.

Can I have it? Of course you can.

Send it to me.

I will. I'll send it to you. I sent it to you. Yeah, and so that prefrontal cortex being offline, doesn't that happen too when you're in an aroused, sexually aroused state?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And craving as well. Anything. So with prefrontal cortex narrowing, it's obviously trauma, fear, anger. Shame can actually do it as well. And actually euphoric states, yeah, in that very fantasy-based thinking. And it's a danger zone because you can't think it through clearly by doing an exercise like that when what you're doing is forcing your prefrontal cortex to switch back on. So bringing it back online. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah.

Good. And thank you. And then, I mean, breathing could help. Isn't that right? Like breathing itself, like a breathwork practice. box breathing or something like that. Can't that at least give you a pause?

Yeah. Yeah, I saw in one of your videos actually, I think it was on LinkedIn, you did the 3 stages of relapse, right? The emotional, mental, and physical. And I use that myself and I usually put a little intervention for each one. With the emotional part, you kind of are within your window of tolerance, aren't you? And your prefrontal cortex is switched on, but you just want to keep it switched on. So I put the stop exercise where you stop, pause, breathe, and just do a little reflection. And a nice way to do that reflection is just put the HALTS into the equation. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then for chemsex, of course, ask yourself that final question, am I horny? Usually I'm hungry, angry, lonely, tired, right?

Right.

When we go into the mental part of that, which is pretty much a prefrontal cortex narrowing when we're in session, right? Then we put your TIP, which is temperature, intense exercise, and progressive muscle relaxation or breathwork in there. And then just a decisional balance. So just looking, once my prefrontal cortex is switched back on, you know, what are the positives and consequences? We use this for apps as well as kind of drug using as well. You know, what are the positives of me going on to this right now? Maybe I'm just like 30 days into my recovery and I'm downloading Grindr, I probably need to stop, pause, and breathe into that and just think, actually, what's happening?

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're, if you're listening and you think that's a lot of work to do to just be on Grindr, then maybe you're not ready to be on it. You know, maybe you just aren't. You know, think about why you're asking yourself, like, I don't want to do all that. Why do you want it? Why are you on it then? You know, what are you willing to do here? Because this, that, that Grindr, even the Grindr ding can be a trigger, can put you in the mood, in that mode. This is highly— chemsex recovery is just so, so many layers and it's so complicated. And this, the apps make it so much worse. So really be on it. And this is the same with Sniffies too. Sniffies is even, you know, a little bit worse because the, the profile pictures can be your penis or your asshole.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you could get you in the mood real fast to use. Um, and don't tell me you're looking for a boyfriend on Sniffies, cuz I don't buy that whatsoever. I mean, it's possible, but that's probably not why you're on there, right? Yeah, yeah.

I don't think sniffers is very big in the UK. I actually only heard about sniffers myself from an American client. He says sniffers is really dangerous. I said sniffers? What are sniffers? And then I heard about sniffers, but it's apparently quite big in the United States, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I will say when I was in London, I looked, it was active.

It was? In London.

Okay, okay.

Yeah, I think I'm just getting old, Dallas. I'm just getting old. I'm sorry. I better start educating myself before I get out of fashion. They'll be like, oh, that addiction therapist, he's historic. He doesn't know what's happening.

Right. No, I, I liked when I traveled to Europe, I liked looking at, I don't know, I, I, I wanted to see what it was like. So I, I did open Grindr. I downloaded Grindr and I made a profile. I, I've actually, I downloaded Grindr. I already have a profile. My picture, I, I didn't realize my picture was on the profile. And this sounds arrogant, but it's not. But I started getting messages like, oh, you're Dallas, uh, you know, the chemsex guy or whatever. Um, and even got invited to an H&H party, which was really strange. Um, but I, I wanted to see, and I will say the, the landscape of Grindr in London was actually everything that I had heard.

Yeah.

Very heavily, heavily H&H, heavily chemsex. Um, but I, I did check out Sniffies too. It wasn't as active, but it, there was plenty going on there at least. Um, so yeah, it's interesting. Um, yeah, I mean, I just, you know, there's so many things to be cautious about here, guys, and you have to be intentional. Um, intentional, thoughtful, and you, and, and it takes patience and it's gonna take time. And like we said earlier, meth is a shortcut to these things. But the alternative is you're going to have to take the long way around to get this, to get what you need, to get what you want, but you can get it. There's hope.

You know what they say, no pain, no gain, Dallas.

That's right.

And it's really not that painful. It's just really just acknowledging your safety, really. Your safety is the most important thing. Really, and just really asking yourself that question, am I safe?

Am I safe? I love that. Yeah, because you said connection equals safety. And in a safe, if you feel safe when you're in that safe environment, that's where you can explore. You can take little calculated risks. You can heal in that safe environment. Yeah. Well, Mike, what did I miss today? Is there something I Didn't ask that you wish I had of or something you wanted to talk about?

No, I think we covered a lot. Really just do a little shout out to where I work and our structured weekend program.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

That is starting, so.

Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, so I work in London and I work in a private practice, but I also work for an amazing clinic called Innisfree. It's based in Marylebone in central London. It is a sexual compulsivity disorder clinic. I work there as a ChemSense consultant and we're starting an amazing program, which is a weekend structured program from a Friday night all the way through to Sunday. It's basically just based on a community outpatient program, but on the weekends because that's where the majority of people really struggle. So we're basically filling the gaps from a Friday to Sunday and offering an intensive structured day program from 11 AM to 6 PM. It will be a combination of your traditional relapse prevention, psychosexual, and trauma-informed treatments with the aim being on connection. It'll be all gay, gay men or men who have sex with men in the program.

Nice.

I love it.

I love it. So we'll put in the show notes a link to that. If you can give us a link or information or something like that, we'll put it in the show notes. Um, if you send me some, send me anything too about that, I'll share it on my social media as well.

Yeah. Amazing.

Such a needed service where you are. Such a needed service. Yeah. Well, yeah.

I think it's going to be amazing because I don't know what it's like in the United States, but here in the UK, With meth and chemsex in general, a lot of the funding goes into harm reduction.

Yeah.

And there's very little in the way of abstinence. And there's something very powerful about having a specific chemsex program for gay, bi, or men who have sex with men where you can create a safe space and they can share.

Well, I think it's the opposite here. I think they're getting rid of harm reduction programs in the US.

I think there's a need for it, but, but there's also a need for abstinence, right? I mean, we need to keep people alive until they can get abstinent, basically.

That's right.

Let's keep them alive until they get recovery.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. Okay. Well, Michael, thank you so much. Or Mike, thanks for being here.

Thank you. Appreciate it so much. So nice to meet you. Bye, Dallas. Good luck with the thing. I really loved the app map. I really liked that. Yeah, I'll send that to you. I'll send that to you. Yes, please.

All right.

All right, guys.

Thank you, guys. See you next week. Bye.