EP 3:31 Chemsex Harm Reduction and Homelessness with Thiccums

Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. Today is a 2-parter. So first, I want to walk you through some of the newest peer-reviewed research on chemsex recovery. Might seem a little boring to you, but I want you to stick with me. I'm making it as simple as possible. I don't like to listen to a bunch of names and journals and all that stuff either, but this is important because we're going to look at what is actually working for this very unique, misunderstood worldwide healthcare You deserve to hear what the research world is saying globally. You deserve to know that there are real alternatives beyond abstinence-based approaches. One quick note before we start. As I said, every study I mentioned today is going to be listed in the show notes, authors, journals, years, all of it. So I'm going to keep it simple as we go and just say a study. And you can dig into the details yourself if you want them. Then after the research, I have something I'm really excited about. While I was in LA recently, I recorded a first-ever in-person interview and I could not have picked a better person. His name is Thickums. Delong-Cray, I think. He is a former meth user, currently unhoused and on his way to changing that. And he has built an Instagram page offering services to unhoused people all over the LA area. He is truly giving back. And Thickeham's is a product of contingency management. It's one of the harm reduction approaches we are going to talk about today. You will hear the research and then you will hear it walking around in real life. So what do I mean by abstinence-based approaches? I mean the model most of us have accepted as the gospel of recovery. Recovery defined as never using again, starting today. You stop and then you receive care. And as long as you stay stopped, you are counted as a success. Success gets measured in days from zero and one use sends you back to the beginning. For some men, that route is very valid and that route is right for them. It was for me, but based on the research, we are doing you a harsh disservice if we never offer you anything else that might work specifically for you. So I'm going to use this term harm reduction to separate these other approaches from abstinence-based ones. But as we have learned on this podcast, harm reduction is a spectrum that runs from abstinence All the way to active use. So technically, it is all harm reduction. That is what this episode is about. Today, I'm making an argument, and I want to be very precise about this. Abstinence keeps its seat at this table. The argument is that abstinence is one door in a room that the research, scientific research says, has many doors. And specifically for meth. Some of the other doors— contingency management, managed use, structured reduction— all of it carry very serious evidence. So let's open some of these doors for you. When abstinence is the only measure of success, everything short of it gets recorded as failure. A man goes from using 5 days a week to using twice a month, And that's failure?

No.

A man who stops injecting, who starts sleeping, who gets his job back, who reconnects with his sister, but all of a sudden he tests positive once in a week, in week 10, and he's a failure? He has to start over? The model does not see who he is and what he's actually doing. And that model What the model can't see, it cannot serve. The research has started to see him though. So let me walk you through it. Door number 1, contingency management. If you have never heard the term, contingency management is very simple. You get rewarded, usually a gift card or a small voucher, for meeting a recovery goal. Most often, a drug test that comes back negative for stimulants.

So that's it.

Your brain's reward system, that same system that meth hijacked, gets recruited back into your own corner.

You show up, you test negative, you get rewarded.

The rewards grow the longer you go. Now, I know how that sounds to some people. You're going to pay people to not use?

It really sounds like some kind of gimmick, but it sounds like too small.

To matter against the drug this big. But here is what the data says. A major review in 2020 looked at 27 studies of contingency management for meth use disorder. 26 of the 27 showed reduced meth use. 26 out of the 27. And on top of that, people stayed in treatment longer, they attended more sessions, and they took fewer sexual risks. risks. The review concluded that clinics treating meth should be offering contingency management, full stop. And listen to this part: gay men helped build this evidence because some of the foundational trials were done specifically with meth-dependent men who have sex with men. Back in 2000— 2005, a study in Los Angeles worked with meth-dependent gay and bisexual men and found that the men who received contingency management Alone or combined with talk therapy, went longer without using than the men who got talk therapy by itself. And those gains held for a full year later. If contingency management were a pill, it would be front-page news. And the tide is turning because in 2023, California became the first state in the nation to get federal approval to cover contingency management through Medicaid. It is called the Recovery Incentives Program and California's own health department describes contingency management as the treatment with the strongest outcomes for stimulant use disorder. Reduced use, stopped use, longer time in care. In January 2025, the federal government raised the annual incentive cap tenfold to $750 per patient. And a study published in 2026 found that even at the higher cap, Contingency management is still a bargain for the healthcare system, saving them money. It gets results. Sit with that. After decades of confrontation, of shame, of white-knuckling and folding chairs, the behavioral treatment with the strongest evidence for meth turns out to be reward.

Big surprise.

A system that says over and over, you can do this. Let's Focus on your wins, not all on the losses. And it's in a language that the recovery brain can actually hear. You did the thing and it counts. Door number 2, reduced use as a real outcome. This is where managed use and the tapering live. For most of the history of addiction treatment in this country, There was only one finish line: total abstinence. Researchers had to measure everything against it. Even the FDA has historically wanted abstinence as the benchmark for approving new addiction medications, which sounds pretty rigorous until you realize what it hides. Because in 2025, the National Institutes of Health shared the results of a huge study. Researchers pulled 13 clinical trials, over 2,000 people who had sought treatment for meth or cocaine, and looked at what actually happened to them. 3 groups emerged from that: people whose use stayed the same, people who cut way down without stopping, and people who stopped completely. And 2 things jumped out. First, More people managed to cut way down, about 18%, than managed to stop completely, about 14%. Cutting down is simply a rung more men can reach. Second, and this is the heart of it, the men who cut down got measurably better. Their cravings dropped by 60%. Their drug seeking dropped by 41%. Their depression eased. Their daily lives improved. Yes, the men who stopped completely improved. Nobody's disputing that. And the men who cut down were recovering too, in real time, in real bodies. The old model would have marked every one of them that cut down a failure. Even the head of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the most cautious voice in really all of America addiction science, says, This way out loud now. In 2025, she wrote publicly that across study after study, people who reduce their use show real improvements. Less depression, less cravings, fewer legal problems, better relationships, better sleep. Cutting down counts. In 2021, researchers pooled 2 clinical trials, over 200 people in treatment for meth use disorder. And asked a question almost nobody had bothered to ask: which outcomes during treatment actually predict how well someone is living years later? And here's what they found out. Complete abstinence during treatment did not predict long-term life functioning. The gold standard, the one door, did not predict who was actually living well down the road. Other measures did a better job. Like the longest continuous stretch of non-use a person reached. The study said plainly that there is a lack of evidence for using total abstinence as the definition of success. So what do managed use and tapering actually look like? Managed use means a man with support sets deliberate boundaries around his use, less often, lower risk setting, Settings. Planned, planned, right? Planned use instead of compulsive. The goal is shrinking the harm and often shrinking the use itself over time. Tapering, structured reduction means stepping down gradually instead of demanding a cliff jump on day 1. And I'll be honest with you because honesty is the whole brand here because we want you to know the research on formal meth tapering programs specifically is thinner than the research on contingency management. This is true. But what we have is the reduced use evidence I just walked you through, which tells you that movement in the right direction produces real benefit. And I can tell you this anecdotally from my program, tapering off Reduced use gives men a sense that there is an answer, a way out, a light at the end of the tunnel. Reduction really does work. Every man who goes from daily use to weekend use has recovered 5 days a week of his own mind, right? The research now says that that actually counts. It's almost 3, 4 years now. Of me sitting with men in this work. And I'm gonna tell you, it does count. Door number 3, what the people in the room actually want. So this one matters to me maybe more than any study because it is about listening. In early 2025, a study surveyed 100 people who use meth and asked them in their own words, what does recovery look like to you? Here's the tension inside the answers. And I love this because it is so human. About two-thirds agreed with a traditional statement that recovery means stopping all mood and mind-altering substances. That old story lives in them.

Okay?

I carry it sometimes too. But when the researchers asked which outcomes were absolutely essential to their recovery, listen to what they said: staying out of legal trouble, 92%; stable employment, 82%; better quality of life, 80%; stable housing, 78%; better Better coping skills, 78%. Better relationships, 75%. Thinking clearly, less depression, less stress, more hope, better sleep. Not one of those can be measured in a urine screen. People with lived experience are telling us that recovery is a whole life and a treatment system that only measures molecules in urine is measuring the smallest Part of the story. Let me bring this home to you because chemsex is this whole other terrain, right? Meth for us was rarely just about the drug. It was welded to sex, connection, belonging, to the internet in our pockets, to the loneliness, which means abstinence-only messaging for gay men often fails twice, once as a drug treatment and once as sexual health. The harm reduction tradition understands this and it understood it early because there's a pair of studies followed over 200 meth-using men who have sex with men through community treatment programs that delivered solid evidence-based therapy from an explicitly harm reduction stance. Men did not have to pledge abstinence at the door to receive care. Here was the outcomes. Less use, less severe addiction, better HIV care. This is the lineage of the programs like Stone— the Stonewall Project in San Francisco. It's built on the belief that not every man is ready, willing, or able to pursue abstinence today, and that the first job is to keep him alive and moving him toward health. More recently, 2024 review looked at harm reduction programs built specifically for chemsex among men who have sex with men. One pilot program stood out. It's 76% of the men completed it. And notice this, 74% of them reached abstinence on their own inside a harm reduction program. 74%. Nobody demanded abstinence at the door, and most of the men walked toward it anyway. That finding does not surprise me. Because shame, shame is a horrible motivator and a worse teacher. When a man is told he is welcome only if he is perfect, he's gonna hide. When he is told he is welcome as he is, he shows up. And showing up is where every recovery I have ever witnessed actually started. And showing up produces long-term results. Harm reduction and abstinence Are not enemies. And very often harm reduction is the road that leads a man to abstinence, wide enough to walk at your own pace, but with the guardrails, right? Instead of trap doors on the outside, abstinence is a door. And for some of us, it is the right one. It was for me. There are men I work with whose relationship to meth is such that any use reopens a whole wound. And they know it. And for them, substance-free living is it. The research agrees that abstinence, where a man can reach it and sustain it, does bring the strongest gains. Nothing here is taking away from that. And the same body of research says the room has other doors. Contingency management, backed by 26 of the 27 studies, Now covered by Medicaid in California, reduced use validated across 13 clinical trials as a path to less craving, less depression, more life, harm reduction programs for men like us that keep men engaged, keep men alive, and often enough walk them all the way to substance-free living anyway. The One Door Model asks, are you clean? Or are you dirty? I do not even use that word, as you know, because you are never dirty, whether you're using or whether you're not. The many door model— many doors model asks a better question here. Are you moving toward the best and highest version of yourself? Are you improving at least 1% every day? And if you are listening to this and you are still using, here is what I want you to take from this. You do not have to be ready for everything to be ready for something. The evidence says that that something counts. Fewer days, safer settings, a support group you actually attend, an honest conversation with a counselor, with a sponsor, with a coach, with a therapist, a doctor who will work with you. Where you actually are instead of a book telling you where you should be. If a program shamed you out the door because you could not promise forever on day 1, that was the doorway failing, not you. It's not you. You're carrying the blame for a system that doesn't work for you. If you are abstinent, And it is working. Keep on trucking. And if you are somewhere in the messy middle, you're using less than you were, but more than you want, I want you to hear this. The middle is recovery too. The researchers finally caught up to what your body already knew. Every step out of the fire is worth something. The man who used to disappear for 4 days and now disappears for maybe 1 or none of them, You've changed your life. You're on your way. Whether or not a fucking spreadsheet calls you a success or not. This room has many doors. Some open into abstinence, some open into less, some open into not yet. Come back tomorrow. We'll leave the light on. Here's something to keep you safe. Whichever door you choose today, know this. The room isn't locked. Everything I cited today is waiting for you in the show notes. You can read these studies yourself, bring them to your therapist, your doctor, your group, your sponsor, whoever needs to see this.

The science is there.

For once, I'm using science, not The World According to Dallas, but this is the world according to me too. So now, if you made it through this, I hope you enjoy my conversation with—

Thank you. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas. Very special episode and the first in-person recording I've ever done for the Aftermath Podcast.

Amazing. I'm so glad to be part of this.

We are here in LA and in a historic park, apparently. We just got chased out of.

I see a hummingbird. And a hummingbird.

Yep, there we go. It's a good omen. Um, I'm here with my special guest, Thickums.

Thickums de Lancre. It's French. Du Bois.

Thickums has a very interesting Instagram page, and it's called Homeless in LA. Thickums has a story that we're going to find out in just a minute. But while I'm here in LA, I came here for a Chemsex conference. I thought I would try to get out and meet some people, and I was given Thickums' name and number.

Hey, can't leave the party without a number, right? That's probably the only number I'll get while I'm here, so let it be the best one.

Yeah. Ba dum bum. All right. Okay, Thickums, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe your history, um, with drug use or anything else you found would be interesting and pertinent here?

Uh, yeah, um, well, I'm 43 now, but, um, not too long ago I was half the weight that you see me now. Um, I was gorgeous. Um, still am on the inside. Um, but I had everything. I had, um, 2 houses, um, 2 cars, a husband, a very good life for myself. And then, um, my mother passed away. Um, Got divorced because of some issues that I discovered after the fact that we had gotten married. Uh, just pretty much being used to get somebody's papers. And, um, I slowly started my downward spiral into my decline through meth.

Through meth.

Mm-hmm.

So your, your mother died and then you found out your, your husband was using you for papers?

Yes.

Okay.

It's a lot.

That's devastating.

Yeah. It's a lot, especially when you grow up, you know, in the foster care system. And all you're doing is looking for a family and a place to call home.

So you grew up in foster care?

Yes, predominantly.

In LA?

Uh, in San Francisco.

Oh, okay. So how did you end up in LA?

Uh, um, the rent is— the rent was cheaper back then. That's the truth.

So you got into meth as a coping mechanism, sounds like. How did you discover it?

Believe it or not, my brother was the first one to have me try it in my early teens. I tried it one time, I didn't like it, and that was it for many, many years, decades. I found it when I went to go on Grindr. That was one of my first experiences. And I didn't know, I mean, I had a familiarity of what it was because I did it with my, with my brother once. Um, and, uh, but with this one, it was a little bit different because it was somebody that I wasn't related to, and it made me feel very euphoric. And, um, it made me feel, I don't know, appreciated. I've always grew up kind of self-conscious in my body, um, even though it looked nicer back then. Uh, appreciate what you have when you're younger people, okay? Appreciate it.

No doubt.

Um, but, uh, it was at that point That, um, I just was looking for, I don't know, looking for someone to appreciate me, looking for some, looking for love in all the wrong places.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Interesting.

Acceptance.

Acceptance. So as a foster child, you were probably always looking for that too. Is that right?

Clock it.

Clock that one. So then, Growing up, then you find a husband and the message is you're not appreciated, you're not wanted, you were just used.

Right.

Yeah.

That's right. It's not, it wasn't just the husband, it was also the, the fact that he came with a family. So I got his family as well, which is great.

Oh, I see.

For as long as it lasted, it was great.

Hmm. Did the family turn on you in the divorce or did you still have a relationship with them?

Uh, yes, I lost connection with them. I mean, they're, it's, Blood is thicker than water, I guess. And so I'm not blood related. And so, yeah, therefore, I mean, yeah, it's what happened.

Yeah. So looking for love, looking for love, looking for a place.

Looking for acceptance.

Looking for acceptance.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I, I, when you're on meth, uh, I think that people that you're with, um, don't really care so much about your body as long as it's acceptable to them.

Yeah.

So I didn't have to like do as much, even though I was gorgeous. Um, I, I filmed myself doing things, so I was like, you know what, you got it.

Okay. For real.

Um, and I still, I still have some of those videos actually that I, I would look at every now and then to help me stay off of meth, which has really helped.

It's been coping mechanism. Interesting. Interesting.

So I wanna share that.

Um, it's interesting because, uh, the, my clients, we just had this like challenge of deleting videos and pictures from their meth days because it was triggering. But you're saying You kept some videos from your meth days to combat the euphoric recall, I guess. Is that right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So were they terrible? What was it about them?

Just— I just knew my angles. I don't know. It's— I grew up watching a lot of porn, as, you know, kids back in the '80s and '90s did. Or watching a lot of independent films from like gay areas, you know, England. And so I just— in watching porn, that's how I would deliver my sex to people in the same mannerism, same ways. And so I knew how to work the camera in certain angles that made me look better.

Yeah. But watching it made you not want to do that.

Right, because it was like I was reliving the same experience.

Okay. Mm-hmm.

I can still get off on it because it was that good. You know, you go back to the same porn video. You know what I mean?

Yes.

Like, it'll get you there.

I thought you meant you watched the video to make you not want to use.

It kept me from using because I was already living that euphoric memory.

Oh, yes. Okay.

That makes sense.

Gotcha. Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, look, everybody has a different way. Different technique of keeping themselves from going into that physical relapse.

Not only that, it was, it was because, um, I was bringing more people to the house, but then like their energies weren't a match with my energy. And you gotta be careful about the energy you bring into your house, people, okay?

Yeah, even when you're using.

Especially when you're using. And, um, so I never really understood why people smoked meth alone. Yeah, until, yeah, I got Through towards the latter parts of the years of doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a progression I see a lot where you start out the parties and with other people. And then like you're saying, toward the end of the use, I see a lot of men just using by themselves. I mean, one is you never know what you're getting. There's a lot of paranoia and psychosis, right? Or the guy shows up, he's been up for 3 days and he's not going to fuck anyway. Right, he just needs a place to crash.

Pretty much.

Right. And so you get so tired of that. Even in larger cities, you know, it happens that way, that you just start using on your own.

Using your own?

Just using on your own.

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Yeah. Because you can live in the porn and not ever be disappointed. Because you're living on that screen, right?

I remember it would take hours to, to bust a load.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's like, golly.

Yeah.

And so, but I, I preferred being with people. I never understood why until later. Like I said, later, later on, I was like, it's a party drug, it's a party drug, you should be around people. And then, um, but yes, they all come with their own baggage. They'll steal from you, they'll try to out, out-wake you. You know, they were waiting for you to fall asleep so they could rob you is what's happening here.

Yeah. Yeah. That happens a lot. Okay. So you get into the— this train is fucking relentless over here. It is always loud here in LA.

It's always loud in LA.

Nervous system is wrecked. Okay. Okay. Anyway, maybe it's not too loud in the, in the microphones, but so you're in the scene. How long did that last?

Okay. So I was in the scene for maybe 4 or 5 years, maybe. I don't know.

Maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to say at least 4 years.

Okay.

So you were in the scene for about 4 years.

Now you said you started with 2 houses, cars, a husband, and what did you end up with?

Zero. Yes, lost a foreclosure. My husband wouldn't sign the papers.

I see.

Sell it.

I see. Okay. And then, so you're in the meth scene.

So what made you, what was your turning point to start to get out?

My turning point in starting to get out of meth, I mean, I tried so many times to get sober.

What did you try? What methods?

Um, quitting cold turkey. Um, uh, not, not smoking as much, just trying to condense what I was smoking into a few days, just trying to get more disciplined into it.

Yep.

You know, I only smoke when I do this.

Right.

I only smoke on my off days when I'm not working.

Yeah.

Um, things like that.

Okay.

But, um, I'm sorry, remind me what the question was.

Yeah, no, what What was your— what, what methods did you try? So you tried cold turkey, you tried tapering off, you tried managed use?

Yes, I tried managed use and that was pretty much it. Oh, and yeah, um, I also tried just, um, smoking marijuana.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I tried other, other forms, drinking, um, poppers only. Um, those things didn't work. Um, I remember going to my dealer and saying, hey, you know, I, I'm good, you know, I don't need anything, I'm trying to quit.

Right.

And then he'd offer me a special deal.

Of course he did.

Yeah. You know what really helped me quit though was, um, using the test strips.

Really?

Yeah. Everything has fentanyl in it.

Oh.

Yeah.

Oh.

And I, I've seen people like OD.

Yes.

And it's just like, yep. If it smells like paint, it's not good.

Is that, is that the sign?

That's one of the signs. Uh, that's for mostly for coke though.

Okay.

With meth, I just, I just, I would, I would try it and test it and kept coming with that little red line and I would—

And you wouldn't use it. Did you test it before you left the dealers? Can you do that?

No.

Okay.

Because you're, you're, you're getting it in passing.

Okay.

He's in the car, you're outside.

Right. So you have to test it later and then throw it away. Mm-hmm. I'm guessing, right?

Yeah. Waste the money. Oh, well then I, I'd call him and say, hey, what's going on with this thing?

Right.

And he'd say, oh, it's not that, don't worry about it, I've never seen that. And he tried to explain the, the chemistry of it to me, and I'm just like, I just want to get high.

Right.

It's too much, it's over my head.

Right.

Um, but I was just too paranoid at that point.

Yeah.

Because I've seen people OD, like I said before.

So when you started seeing the fentanyl, you started— you Slow down.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

It, it, it's scary.

Okay. So then at what point were you— is it unhoused or is it homeless?

Uh, I'm unhoused.

Okay.

Um, I'm in a shelter now.

You're in a shelter. Okay. So how long have you been there?

Um, it's been 3 months now.

3 months. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And then you start— so did you— you mentioned APLA, which is Um, God, now it's leaving me what it stands for.

Uh, APLA, AIDS Prevention Los Angeles.

Los Angeles, AIDS Prevention Los Angeles. That's how I met—

Don't quote me.

—Thickums, uh, Joe from there. Joe has been on the podcast with Dr. C. Uh, they— we did a podcast on, um, Weekend Warriors. So—

Weekend Warriors?

Yeah.

Okay, I'm gonna check that out.

Yeah, it's very good.

He's a celebrity. I had no idea I was being interviewed by him today. No, now I follow you on Insta.

Thanks. Thank you. Um, okay. So you, you became homeless and unhoused and you're in a shelter. So—

Oh, we should talk about that. Yeah. So, uh, I was, I was working and getting high at my workplace. I was working graveyard shift in an office building. Okay. And, um, yeah, I, I had to stop that. Um, Yeah, before they caught me.

So then what, what, why did you, and when did you start your Instagram page, Being Homeless in LA?

Um, I started, uh, How to Be Homeless in LA about 6 months ago, uh, because of Malik Henry, um, and, uh, one of my workers from, um, SHARP. It's a homeless prevention organization.

Okay.

Um, they both recommended that I Chronicle my journey and that maybe my journey might be able to help others.

Nice. Mm-hmm. So what about your journey is a model for others?

Uh, what about my journey is a model for others? I think it's the outlook. I think it's the perspective. Um, I think it's the resources that I provide on, on the page for housing. Okay. For housing, for laundry, for restrooms, for showers. Nice. Things that people really need. Okay. There's not enough public restrooms, as you can imagine, even for those that are housed. I mean, you're out there outside, you need to use the restroom. Nobody will let you use a restroom of a store.

I mean, they would never let us. They wouldn't let us here. I'm sure they wouldn't even let us.

Yeah. There's no restroom in the park. There's no restroom in the park. They won't even let us sit down on the bench here. But no, little things like that. Yeah. If you're out here, you need to go to the restroom and you got, you got the bubble guts. I mean, what, where are you gonna go? What you gonna do?

Yeah.

So I think that's what people take from my page is more or less, um, where things are, where the resources are and how to get access to them.

Wow. I love it. So if I'm, I mean, if I'm home, if I'm unhoused in LA, I need to know where, where can I do my laundry? Where's the next food bank?

Yep. How do you qualify?

Oh yeah. How do I qualify?

You gotta have your qualifications. Gosh. Nothing is free.

What do you do to qualify?

Um, you've had— you have to be, um, interviewed. There has to be an intake done on you, uh, to see, um, what, what your score is under a system. There's a matrix, um, software that they have that everybody uses here in Los Angeles. I think it's called the CLMX, something like that. I'll find out for you.

It's okay.

Um, but yeah, they, they'll give you an intake, they'll interview you, and they'll ask you so many questions. Um, and based on your answers is how you're scored and then how you're categorized and how soon you'll be able to get housing.

Wow.

Priority list.

Yeah. So housing does not include the shelter then, or does it?

You know what they say, home sweet home. Home is where the heart is. Um, even if you're housed in a shelter, you could still be homeless because it's not your home.

Right.

You don't feel like that someone— people are, are checking on you every 5 minutes, every 5 minutes, 24/7, every 5 minutes.

They check on you?

Sometimes 15 minutes if you're lucky.

Really?

Yes.

Okay.

They just open up the doors. They open up the doors just to see if anybody's doing anything in the room.

Oh.

That they shouldn't be doing.

So are you in a big room then with a lot of other people?

Yeah, I'm in a reconverted motel.

Okay.

Uh-huh. Funny. Uh, A, a motel that I had smoked meth in.

Really? Oh, interesting. Full circle.

Yeah. Talk about a full circle moment. Am I right? So being in the same room where I used to smoke meth, um, has now been the place where I've called home as a shelter.

Wow. Mm-hmm. So you share it with another person?

Uh, there's 3 to a room.

3 to a room?

Yes. Very comfortable mattresses.

Is that sarcasm or? No, they're very comfortable. Okay.

Shout out to Sunrise Shelter.

Sunrise Shelter.

Yep.

Sunrise Shelter. Okay. So what are the—

Distracted.

So, okay. So you're in the shelter. Are you working toward then, I'm assuming, working toward getting out of there? Do you have a plan? Does somebody like help you with some type of long-term plan to get into housing?

Absolutely. Um, Dolly Cordova from SHARP is actually helping me. Um, they, along with the intake that they'll do with you. They'll offer you objectives and things that you want to work on, and they'll work with you as long as you have those objectives. And once you're done with the objectives, then you get termed out of the program. And so I meet with Dolly Cordova once a week, and I get my medication through Sharp. It turns out that I've been diagnosed with hyposchizoaffective disorder.

Okay.

Didn't know that.

Okay.

So a lot of people that Um, maybe drawn to doing drugs like that, maybe have what I have. Who's to say? Um, I'm not a doctor. I can't diagnose you, but they can at SHARP. That's S-C-H-A-R-P.

Yeah. We'll put the link in the show notes.

Yes. Um, but yeah, so I meet with them and so it's because of them that I've been able to get an organizer, um, get work. I'm working now as an Uber driver.

Oh.

At the shelter, they allow you to, to live there and stack up your bread.

Okay.

So to speak, your money.

Right.

Uh, for 6 months. And you're only allowed to be at the shelter for 6 months.

Oh, okay. So how long have you been there?

There's always a catch. Uh, uh, 3 months now.

3 months. And you're making money through Uber?

I am.

Very nice.

I'm saving.

Very nice.

So you, are there rules about, are you tested there?

Drug tested?

Oh, yes.

Okay.

Yes, yes, yes. They, they test you if they suspect that you're under the influence of something, they'll test you right there on the spot. If you're on methamphetamines, they give you 3 chances to get off of meth, which is a big, which is a lot. Um, because we had a roommate, uh, who was on meth and we never got an ounce of sleep. He's always going in and out of the room. Um, but yeah, so they're, they're aware of the issue and, uh, you do get 3 chances at the shelter to, to get sober.

Okay. Do you go to meetings or how, how, how do you work your recovery?

Um, I used to go to meetings through APLA.

Okay.

Through, through Joe.

Okay.

Uh, they've stopped the meetings because of budget cuts, thanks to you know who. Um, yeah. And so I've tried going to other meetings and groups, but, um, I'm pretty good at just managing it on my own right now at this moment in time.

How do you manage it? How, what keeps you sober?

I keep busy.

Yeah.

I keep busy with work. Um, whenever I'm feeling like the need to do something. And don't get me wrong, I've, I've, I messed up a couple of times by relapsing, um, then feeling really remorseful afterwards. Uh, it was during those times that luckily I had the meetings to go to through Joe, our friend Joe.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but with all the budget cuts being what they are and other meetings, I just, um, I'm not really comfortable there. I think there's a lot of energy that's associated with meth and those people that are still on it. Which triggers me to get back on it. And so, uh, meetings like that aren't really the best place for me.

For you particularly. Okay. So what kind of services do you get at APLA then through, through Joe? Joe runs the Chemsex, um, portion of APLA.

Yes, there's a program. It's, um, an 8-week program where they, they test you for methamphetamines, uh, 3 times a week. And it's a program I'm forgetting the vocabulary term for it, but it's where they, they provide you with incentives.

Oh yes. Um, contingency?

Contingency management.

Management.

Yes. Um, and so I graduated that program. Um, and then when I relapsed, I had to go back into the program, but I'm grateful for it. Um, they give you gift cards after your 8 weeks so you can get clothing, soap, shampoos, anything you need if you're homeless on the street.

Really nice. So it helped you?

Absolutely. And you asked me a question before that.

What do you do for your recovery?

Yes. Um, what I do for my recovery, um, like I said, I keep busy with work. Uh, I completed a semester of school last semester. Okay. Not doing anything this semester. I'm only 2 classes away from my associate's degree. Wow. Could you believe that? All these years later. At 43.

That's very nice. What are you, what are you planning on getting your degree in?

Um, it'll be something in horticulture. I'm a landscaper by trade.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I do like that.

Nice.

Yeah.

Very nice.

You gotta stay busy. You have to stay busy and keep yourself distracted, especially if you're on, on drugs like that. But I think the real thing that, that kept, is keeping me sober is, um, the fact that I've seen somebody pass away. I saw somebody pass away. Um, on it. I tried, I called 911 and, um, I've had to deal with the guilt because I said that my, my friend had OD'd and they never came. They never showed up. And so now I realize you're not supposed to say that you're, you're, someone's OD'd. You're supposed to say that someone is having trouble breathing or something like that. There are key terms you have to say.

Really?

To, to the cops.

Really?

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

Why is that?

That's why I go to therapy now, to help release that guilt too.

Yeah.

This was a nice young man.

Aw.

Gorgeous. And, um, wow. Uh, yeah. So I think that's what's helping me stay sober.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very nice. That's a, yeah, that has to have been traumatic. And you see a therapist, you're saying?

I do. I do once a week.

Is that through APLA or is this?

Um, I actually was going through APLA. The thing is you can't double dip your, your resources.

Okay.

So I'm getting my sources through SHARP now, but APLA did provide me with a counselor.

Okay.

Yeah, the therapist, amazing, amazing therapist.

Really?

Yes. You need to be heard. You need to get your, your voice out there. You need to let them know what's going on so that way you feel you have someone that can relate to you and really help you with providing you with the tools and resources and On how to get through something like this.

So where do you find your acceptance now?

Uh, I found it through Joe's group while it was still going on, uh, PartyWise. Um, and my acceptance now, now that that's been terminated because of budget cuts, um, it comes from myself. I finally got, gotten to that point where I can say and look, look at myself in the mirror and say, you know what, yes, you've done it. You're enough. You're okay.

Yeah, yeah. So what—

It's been a long time.

Yeah, so what, what was your process like for that? For, for finding your self-acceptance?

Well, the name Thickums, um, when I was going through my recovery, and this would be like, um, getting sober cold turkey, I watched Survival of the Thickest, um, The Flying Nun.

Oh.

Um, really positive Yeah. Um, and body, body positive, um, things to watch on TV. Um, that's what led me to the name Thickums. In the show The Farvel of the Thickest, she refers to— she's a clothing designer for bigger people, men and women.

Oh, okay.

She calls her, her supporters, people that are her customers, Thickums.

Ah.

That's how I came up with my name.

Okay.

Yes. You can be whoever you want to be. You can change your name whenever you want to.

That's right.

Yes. Who cares who, who laughs? It's, it's for you. Because this is the biggest I've ever been. Okay. I mean, I was bigger than this and I've lost weight, but, um, I was, I was your size. I was the size of Dallas Bragg once and I was gorgeous. Trey, where you at?

Um, okay. Okay. So on the page, I guess who could also use your page, Instagram page, would be people in working in the field of homelessness, trying to help homeless people find resources too, right?

Absolutely. So, um, Sharp helped me find a place for housing, and then I posted that place on housing on my Instagram, um, with Sharp's information on it, uh, with other organizations that are dealing— are working with that program. Um, yeah, that one got me a lot of hits. Yeah, on Instagram. Yeah. Um, also, if you're homeless and you have a car, there's places you can be in your car, um, a private lot secured with security officers.

Really?

And restrooms and showers.

So—

Wow. You could be housed in your car.

Okay.

We're not going to call it home, but we'll call it a house.

It's something.

It's something.

Yeah.

I'm all about the tiny house movement too. I want a tiny house.

Yeah, me too.

There's a lot of dilapidated buildings here in Los Angeles.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna say.

That are vacant that We have the money and resources to, um, to fix up and house people in, but yeah, politics being what they are.

Yeah. Yeah. So 3 more months in Sunrise Shelter.

Yes.

3 more months of Ubering. Yes. What do you think will happen after that?

Um, well, I'm hoping to get into stable housing. Um, there are people that have approached me that have beds available, but they want so much money in rent.

Okay.

$1,200 a month. So $1,200 a month in rent for a bed, um, in a shared room is kind of, you know, you, it sounds like a lot, but it's LA. So for what you're getting and everything's is fully, is fully furnished. You have a washer and dryer, there's a kitchen there. So it's, I think it's very, very European. You know, there's a lot of those things where you get, you get your room where you get everything else with it.

So What will happen then? So what happens after 3 months if you don't get a space?

Uh, I'm gonna get a space.

You are gonna get a space?

I'm gonna get a space. Yes. If not, um, I think the shelter will let me, or maybe I can find another shelter to go into. Um, that's the fear. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. And that's why the system is kind of broken. You just don't know where you go after you graduate.

Right. There's no, Transition plan.

We just don't know. Yeah. But that's why they give you that much, much time to save your money for 6 months.

Yeah.

So you can afford your first month's rent and your last, your deposit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yeah.

That's the idea.

Right, right.

Okay. Yeah. So if it's like $3,000, you know what I mean? You have enough and then you're supposed to be able to make it after that. Mm-hmm. So I think that's the plan. Yeah. Yeah. I've got some money saved up, so.

Okay.

About $1,500. So, okay, so far. Yeah, but we have expenses, right? But they do give you 3 square meals a day at the shelter. Okay. And, um, you know, and laundry services.

They do?

Yes, they do. Okay. So yeah, but you have to be able to qualify for these programs. But, um, if you take yourself to any available emergency room, uh, that's willing to intake you, um, you know, you Tell them that you're hearing voices, um, and then they'll intake you for— put you on a 7-day hold, and then from there, that's when they'll put you into a shelter.

Really? This is good information to know as far as how to work the system.

Work the system. They're working it on us all the time. All right, am I right?

You're right, you're right.

I'm talking about America.

So if I'm in LA and I find myself homeless Today, I just got evicted. What would be the first thing to do?

If you found out you're evicted today, the first thing you'd want to do is go get a gym membership so you can take showers just in case. Yeah. Okay. And you can have a place to be. The next thing you want to do is you want to take your driver's license and your Social Security card over to the TDD office— not TDD office, I'm sorry, um, to Department of Social Services. Okay. So you can get your GR and your food stamps.

Okay. What's GR?

General Relief.

Okay.

Uh, which is about $200 a month, I believe.

Okay.

And $390 in food stamps.

Okay.

Um, the first thing you want to do, uh, after that you want to go to, um, Sunrise Shelter. Um, I'll give you the information for that so you can leave it in your caption.

Okay.

Um, and then they'll do intake with you. You have to know what to say so you can qualify. Um, if you don't qualify under just having— because they, they give you a psychiatrist, they want to meet with the psychiatrist when I first got into the shelter, and that's how I got diagnosed. But it was actually, um, somebody who helped me because I didn't know what to say. Because, you know, you're, you're homeless, you're incoherent, you don't have a watch anymore, you don't know what time of day it is, you just— you're in survival mode.

Wow.

But, um, you're hearing voices, uh, you have thoughts about walking on the freeway Say things like that, and that's how you get in.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And these things are true. People, people, I mean, you see people talking to themselves on the train and stuff like that. These are suicidal ideations.

Yeah. Well, especially if you're using meth, especially the meth that's out there now.

I, I can tell you stories about things I've heard when I was on meth. Yeah. I thought I was being haunted by a ghost.

Yeah. I mean, it's common. Very common. Psychosis, especially now with the myth that's out there. Um, yeah, well, I just think it's great what you're doing.

It's great what you're doing. Oh my God, you reach so many people.

Thank you.

You've seen his followers? Insane. We love it. We love it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we want everybody to follow you and watch this.

Please follow me on How to Be Homeless in LA or under The Real Thiccums. The space real space Thiccums. T-H-I-C-C-U-M-S.

And we'll put that in the show notes. Um, I think it's very helpful. And, you know, even in a small city like I'm in Charlotte where I was homeless.

Ooh, how's that? How's it been going in Charlotte?

It was very, it was just, it was very, um, difficult to navigate. You know, even in a small city, the, the resources are just siloed. You know, there's not one place to go to say, You know, it's a, but now we have a number, I think it's 211 or something like that, that you call and it's supposed to be just an integrated continuum of care kind of system and they will get you to where you go. But, you know, even just navigating the bus for me was difficult. I would get on the right bus, but the wrong direction and like shit like that. And then it'd make me late for work or then I wouldn't have a job anymore. And it was just, just like, it was, it was difficult. And then Well, I remember one day I traveled all the way. It took me all day to get across the city to the, um, Social Security office cuz I needed a Social Security card. Stood in line for like an hour and a half to 2 hours and they closed. Oh my God.

You didn't get anything?

I had nothing. That was all day, you know, starving. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, we, it, something like you're doing, I think And using social media is just perfect. And I think it's probably helping a lot more people out here than what you might realize.

That's exactly what Malik Henry said. And I just want to encourage people out there that if you have a friend that's experiencing homelessness, offer them a shower, offer them to do a load of laundry. Those things like, things like that really help a lot. Yeah. People always ask, what can I do? What can I do? Just be, put yourself in their shoes.

Yeah. Yes.

But a, a shower and some laundry is, I mean, you don't have to let me sleep in your house, but a shower would be amazing.

Right.

And some laundry. Thank you so much.

Yeah.

A shower can make such a difference.

You know, a haircut.

Yeah.

You know, you know how good you feel after you get a haircut?

Yeah, that's true.

You feel like you got your integrity back.

Yeah.

Yeah. Things like that really help a lot.

Yeah.

So there's always a way. It doesn't have to cost you very much money at all. Or just a listening ear.

A listening ear.

Mm-hmm.

I love it. Am I right? Anything I missed today that you wish we would've touched on that you'd like to get out there?

Um, self-love, self-acceptance, um, are the most important things you can do if you're trying to get sober. Um, you don't need the meth. You are enough. Um, you are sexy. Uh, you, sometimes the sex is better by yourself. Am I right? Yeah. Because if you've had bad sex, you know what I'm talking about. Um, other than that, I think that's pretty much it. Know that you're enough. Know that you can do it. Take your time. Take a breath. Stay focused and get disciplined. That's all I can say.

I love it. And congratulations on your recovery.

Thank you very much. Thank you. It's people like you and watching your Instagram that have helped me stay sober.

So thank you.

It's true. We need education and we need more public restrooms outside.

Yes, we do.

For everybody, not just the unhoused. And we need— yeah, right, me too.

And you know what, we need a better system.

You were talking about people in Charlotte and how you went about things and how there's like only one place to get numbers like 211. Those numbers don't help anybody. We, we have 311 for us. Oh, and it is not the business. It's not the same. Yeah. Um, and so we need more nonprofit organizations doing things to help people, more charities.

Just coordinate.

Yeah, we need our council members to do stuff, but You know, words into real action.

Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. Thank you. Thank you very much for taking time for me today.

Thickums from Mayer, you're very welcome. It's nice meeting you. Nice meeting you too. Oh, finally in person.

All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any comments, please leave them on YouTube or Spotify. You can reach Thickums. I'm going to put his Instagram, his Instagram handle in the show notes. If you have a question for me, you can reach me anywhere at any time on social media. Have a great week.

Thickums out.