EP 3:4 Chemsex Alchemy: Turning Misery into Mission with Darren
In this episode of The Aftermath Podcast, host Dallas Bragg interviews Darren Murphy, a Chemsex Specialist Practitioner at Forward Leeds Drug and Alcohol Service. The conversation begins with an overview of chemsex—sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men involving substances such as methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB—and the broader epidemic it represents. Darren shares his lived experience: early drug use, a transition into the gay scene, escalating addiction to crystal meth and mephedrone, involvement in drug dealing, a 32‑month prison sentence, and the pivotal moment in prison that sparked his recovery. He describes Forward Leeds' structured, person‑centered, trauma‑informed 3‑month treatment pathway, which begins with a goal‑setting intake, offers flexibility for mutual‑aid groups, and integrates wrap‑around services (housing, sexual health, employment, education). He explains the service’s referral system, including a single point of contact phone line, QR‑code posters in community venues, and a brief online referral form. Darren details how he moved from volunteering to a trainee role and then to leading the first chemsex‑focused service in Leeds, highlighting the importance of addressing stigma, providing harm‑reduction kits, and offering ancillary support. Throughout, both speakers reflect on the psychological drivers of chemsex—using drugs to gain confidence, escape self‑loathing, and fulfill a desired identity—and discuss the distinction between quitting out of need versus genuine want. The episode concludes with mutual appreciation: Dallas thanks Darren for sharing his story and acknowledges his inspirational journey, while Darren expresses gratitude for Dallas’s podcast, noting he recommends it to every client as a resource for strategies and thinking. This closing reinforces the podcast’s role as a community outreach tool and a source of empowerment for both listeners and service users.
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the day my kind of recovery started, I guess, so to speak, because I did, for one, I didn't think I was gonna go to prison, Dallas. I had that delusion. I was like, you know what? This can't, I can't go to prison. Like, I've never been in trouble with the police. You know, I was like, I'm an addict. I'm HIV positive. Like, I can't go to prison. So there was delusion there. But also what, also why I couldn't believe it is because I couldn't allow myself to really look at Mm-hmm. The situation I was in, because if I'd have done that—
Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. And the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to The Aftermath. I'm Dallas Bragg, your host. So glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're joining us on season 3 and really having a great time so far. You know, it's interesting. I kind of— I've loosened up and I'm not so wound up about the podcast and doing it right and doing this and doing that and having this guest and having that guest. Just kind of letting it flow this season. You know, who shows up, who doesn't show up, what do we talk about, what do we not talk about it. Just kind of surrendering to what is. So it's actually kind of nice. But today I'm really excited to introduce to you all a new friend of mine, Darren Murphy. Darren and I met, I guess, on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the new place to meet people. Apparently, I could. I was off. I was off LinkedIn for a little while, but now I'm I'm back on and really love meeting people, especially in the chemsex industry area. If you call it an industry, I don't know if it's an industry, but chemsex field, I guess, is a better way to say it. Darren and I met in person at the International Chemsex Conference in Antwerp. Belgium, where I was lost on his accent, as I usually am. We were laughing at that earlier. He asked me if I should have— if we should have subtitles for him. And as he speaks, you'll understand why a little bit. But I've just always been— I don't know what it is about my ears and accents, but even in the States, Like, I remember once we went, I had my one boyfriend I've had, but we went to Philadelphia, I guess. And the, the, we were ordering and I couldn't, I couldn't understand this girl. She was just asking me what I wanted on my set, my sub, you know, or whatever, my sandwich. I was like, I turned to him. I was like, I don't, you're going to have to do, you're going to have to interpret this. It was the same language. It was English, just like you speaking English. But I just couldn't understand the accent. So anyway, without further ado, Darren, can you tell us about yourself?
Yeah. Hi, my name's Darren. Currently I'm the Chemsex Specialist Practitioner at Forward Leeds Drug and Alcohol Service. I have a lot of lived experience with Chemsex, crystal meth, uh, addiction and the criminal justice system as well.
Okay.
And I work, I work very person-centered with individuals. They come into structured treatment. So what structured treatment is in the UK, in the service that I work in, is we work with clients over a period of 3 months. And at the beginning of that 3 months, um, we ask them, you know, what are their goals? What would they like to achieve? You know, we're not an abstinence-based service either. So, you know, their goals could be anything from, you know, maybe wanting to, uh, reduce their partying, reduce their crystal meth use, uh, maybe how to party safely, to getting a new— getting a job, looking for employment, finding, finding another property. It's a, it's a wide range of things. Uh, so we work really person-centered and trauma-informed. And over that period of 3 months, I support that individual to achieve their goals. And we'll work, we'll try to create a wraparound support within our service. So we'll work predominantly with psychosocial interventions, add a bit of SMART recovery in there. I do have the flexibility, Dallas, so I'm really lucky that I am able to support clients outside of work time, as long as it's cleared with my manager and my organisation. So I can support them to— Mutual aid, i.e., uh, Narcotics Anonymous. You know, we don't have Crystal Meth Anonymous in Leeds, you know, or SMART meetings, or— so I do have that flexibility. Um, we have a housing team within our service, so if someone's looking at homelessness, which can be quite common, um, you know, we can get them referred to the housing team. If somebody has Um, quite a lot of health issues and maybe they're not engaging with the National Health Service, or they're not engaging with their GP, uh, they're not engaging with sexual health, they're not on PrEP or PEP or doxy-PEP, then enhanced care, we can get them in as an add-on and they can help create that bridge and break down any barriers. So in our service, I'm quite, we're very lucky because there's kind of a lot of flexibility within our service. So we are able to create that wraparound support for clients that we support.
Wow. I love this. I wish we had this in the States. Um, yeah, I love it. And, and first of all, I want to say, now people have heard you, have heard you speak and they're like, what the fuck's wrong with Dallas? He can't understand, understand you because you speak very clearly. Um, I don't know. I don't know what it was that day.
I need to clarify that for, uh, for the audience. It's maybe because I know that I'm on a podcast, but just to let you know that when I first met Dallas, I went, hi Dallas, love you, alright? And I literally said it like that. You just looked at me and you were like, what? And I was like, oh, do you know what? I was like, that's not uncommon. That is not uncommon at all. I thought it was brilliant. So just for the podcast, I'd like to clarify that.
Right. Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah.
I wanted to, like, for people listening, they're like, what the hell? I can understand him fine. That whole opening line. And plus I didn't know who you were. I mean, I couldn't, you know, I hadn't met you in person yet. But it did sound like very foreign noises to me.
Yeah. And I just come bounding over to you, like really northern.
Yeah.
Looking like someone from Fraggle Rock.
Hey, Dallas! Fraggle Rock. I love it. So Darren, a question about this structured treatment. How do they get referred to you? Where are they coming from?
So what happens is if we, I'll take it as clients as a whole, but we'll will encapsulate chemsex clients within that.
Okay.
So what individuals can do is there's a telephone number on our website, and that will take you to the single point of contact. And that is the first team that you will meet, and they will do roughly a 20-minute screen.
Mm-hmm.
And they will get all the information, uh, what substances you're using, any physical health issues, any mental health issues. You know, uh, preference of worker, do you want male or female? Um, you know, what, um, and what is it they're struggling with? So then once they've got all that information, what happens then is a task will get sent out to the relevant teams. So it'll be like, we've just had a client come through. If it's, um, say for example, if it's heroin, That will go straight to the active team managers. We've just had a referral come through for heroin. Can this be picked up?
Mm-hmm.
So what happens in regard to Chemsex clients is the minute a Chemsex client comes through that pathway, Mm-hmm. um, I get a task immediately after their phone has gone down from the worker that has just done the initial screening.
Okay.
And they will be like, Darren, um, We've got a Chemsex client come through. Can you give 'em a call and book them in for an assessment? And one thing that I'm really proud of is a few weeks ago we had a client. I got a, I got a task at 20 to 5 on the Friday afternoon, and I finish at 5:00 PM. So I was like, there's, and it was like, Darren, there's a client, uh, they're, they're struggling. Can we get the support in? So I was like, there's nothing I can do right now in this 20 minutes. But the minute I got into work Monday morning, by the Wednesday I had had 'em assessed and I had a mental health team already on it to have an assessment with 'em. So that's one way that comes through.
Mm-hmm.
With the Chemsex, we have Chemsex QR code posters around different organizations in Leeds, in the hospitals. In, uh, the HIV clinic, in sexual health, in the clubs. Individuals can scan the barcode, it'll take you straight to the Chemsex Harm Reduction page, and at the bottom of that is a, a literally a referral form with 4 questions on it, because I don't want it to be lengthy, because I think if people are struggling, the last thing they're going to want to do is go through a War and Peace referral form. And that, right, that 4 questions, once that's filled out, it will come straight to an inbox with me and I can reach out to them. And on the, on the referral, it is literally, are you attending chill-outs? But we put it at chemsex parties. What substances are you using? Are you feeling that this is causing problems within your life right now?
Mm-hmm.
Do I have consent to call you?
Hmm.
And then once, if, when we get them booked in, then I will do an assessment which will take about an hour and 20 minutes. So we'll get all the risks done, all the safeguarding, all the substances. If they're slamming, how much are they slamming? You know, assign person to harm reduction, cuz we also have harm reduction sites. in our service as well, which provide clean works and we have chemsex packs put in.
Okay. Okay. Interesting. And you said, so when the client comes in, the client sets their goal.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So they may say, I want to reduce use.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
So yeah, it can be, obviously we have to, because we are a drug and alcohol service and we're not a mental health service. You know, you do find a lot of clients that kind of try to come through for mental health support. So we kind of just advise that one of the goals at least has to have, it has to be substance related.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. Good. I like this. And I think if you're listening and you're not in Leeds, if you're somewhere else or the US, Is thinking about the reason I want to present organizations like this is I want you as a listener to be able to structure your questions and to refine your search when you're looking for help in a way that could match up to some of the, what other organizations are doing. So if you're listening to this and you're like, what the hell does this have to do with me? I live in Minnesota. USA, it has everything to do with you. Because if you want help, then now you could, when you're looking for places to go, you have better questions to ask. Like, will you help me set my own goals? Because if not, then it may not be right for you. You may be setting yourself up for failure by going to a service that doesn't really fit what's perfect for you. And so I know in the US it's gonna be harder to find organizations and treatment centers that say anything but abstinence, but they're out there. So this gives you something to, a model to look through. Darren is talking about, he also has wraparound services of if you need housing or if you need sexual health work or job placement. Like, look for that. Look for places that offer these ancillary, these, um, is it ancillary? Ancillary. I don't know what the word is. I'm trying to think of, um, services that the supplemental services you could say that will also, you know, be a holistic approach to your recovery. So if a, you know, these are questions you can ask when you're looking for help. And I think you, I mean, you've got it together at Forward Leads. Darren, it seems like to me, I mean, you've got so much going there.
Yeah, we are very lucky as a service because, I mean, I came out of addiction, came out of prison, and then started working eventually in service. So I didn't, you know, I didn't see what other services had to offer. But, you know, as the longer, you know, I've been working in services, the more I'm like, wow, we are so lucky because we do have a lot in Forward Leads. You know, there is a lot of flexibility, there is a lot of other teams that are in Forward Leads, and sometimes more than what I see around the UK. So I really find that we are really lucky within Forward Leads that we are able to offer that wraparound support.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Yeah.
I love it. 'Cause I, I remember, you know, I was, when I was in early recovery and I was trying to fucking piece everything together myself and, you know, just, I needed a, um, Social Security card. So I had to ride the bus and catch another bus, take 45 minutes across town to wait in line an hour to not get it. You know, it's like if, because I didn't have something. But there was no one to help, to guide me. Like, I was, my brain was fucked up. You know, like, like you say, like, I don't want to read a bunch of stuff. I couldn't, I couldn't take that information in. I couldn't metabolize or process directions.
Oh, I completely 100% get it. It's like when Once you take the crystal and the chemtechs away, it was, it was like I felt like I was, I was a baby trying to learn how to walk again, trying to learn how to navigate adult life, you know.
Yeah.
So the good thing about my role, that if a person does need to, maybe they don't have a bank account, I can say to them, okay, well, would you like me to support you to the bank, you know, just so that you've got that moral support there.
Mm-hmm.
And we can go through it. Would you like me to support you, um, to, um, do sexual health screening? I mean, luckily I work out of a— I do community working as well, so I work out of an LGBT organization called MESMAC every Thursday, um, and they do sexual health screening. So I can speak with my client on the first floor And I, I'll say to them, when was the last time you had a sexual health screen? And they'll be like, okay, uh, maybe about 4 or 5 months ago. So I'm like, okay, do you mind if I just run upstairs and see if we can get you booked in for a sexual health screening?
Hmm.
You know, so it's, yeah, it's really useful because I know, I feel it's quite vital, especially early recovery, you know, of trying to find your feet again and remembering how you used to, you know, just navigate life.
Mm-hmm. Right, right. Exactly. Exactly right. So this is really great. I just want to kind of delve into, if you're, if you're willing, how did you, what is your connection with Chemsex Services? You just mentioned that you were in jail, prison?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes. So it is, it is a very Jerry Springer style story. So I'm in the process of, um, getting diagnosed for ADHD, so I'm gonna try to do my best to encapsulate it and articulate it.
Okay.
So I, I started taking drugs at a very early age, Dallas. Um, I used my first drug, which was cannabis, around about 13. Previously to that, I was sniffing gas, what you fill lighters up with, at about 12 years old. By 14 years of age, I was using ecstasy and speed on a regular occasion. And then when I moved to London to form my career, when I was like 20, um, I'd been in previously, I'd been in a 5-year relationship with a girl. I was engaged to be married. I kind of, unfortunately, like I knew that I were gay, but I, I just thought somehow I would be able to somehow work the gay out of me. That's—
Yeah.
That was my thought process to it. But the relationship ended, the drugs kind of got more often from that point. And when I moved to London and hit the gay scene in London, it was just like boom. It was like a kid in a candy shop. And I'm sure, like, you know, with any young gay lad that is just newly out that goes into a big city, I'm sure that that, you know, that story is very common. And it wasn't until though around about 2009, it was, cuz 2009 was a real key year for me.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it was the year that I was first ever introduced to methadone, MCAT.
Mm-hmm.
Which very quickly catapulted me into the chemsex world.
Yeah. You know?
And it was also the year that my dad was found dead in his flat. And me and my dad had, we didn't have a great relationship. My dad wasn't a very nice person. So I had a lot of internal issues going on from that. But what I found is the minute I took mephedrone, it hit me very differently than the drugs I'd been using previous, which was coke, speed. ecstasy, you know, and it became a solution to a problem. And the only way, apart from the high that it brought, that, you know, is very common, you know, feelings of mass euphoria, you know, feeling like your sex drive is up here and your inhibitions are down there, and you're feeling like you can, you know, you can have sex like a porn star.
Yeah.
The one thing that it did for me Dallas was very simply, it made me content for a very short period of time. But the minute that, that content, the minute I started coming down off that high of methadone is when the dis-ease internally would start. So then what that meant is I just needed to keep using more. So what started off as using methadone You know, on a Friday into a Saturday, then went from a Friday into a Sunday, Friday into a Wednesday, Friday into a Friday until I was using 7 days a week.
Yeah.
For however long I was then staying up this, this, at this point, this was at about 2013 by this point. Um, I ended up losing my career as a dancer. Um, and I'd been doing quite well in my career at that point. But, you know, the, I guess the nuts and bolts start to fall off the machine. Everybody starts to see you're falling apart, but that's the delusion of drugs. You feel like you're hiding it, don't you? You're like, no, it's absolutely fine.
Yeah.
I was, by 2013, 2014, I'd been using every single day for about 12 months at that point. I'd lost my dance career. And I'd started dealing drugs, um, as a matter of survival. And because I'd lost my dance career, I gave myself 2 options, Dallas. And I was like, I either become a sex worker or a dealer. They were the only 2 options. And I thought I'd be a really bad sex worker. I was like, I could, I could, I could talk someone, I could talk to someone all night, but if I wasn't attracted, I wouldn't be able to. perform.
Yeah.
So then I thought, oh my God, the perfect— it, it felt like it was an epiphany, and it would've done because I was so high when I made the decision that I was like, I'm gonna— dealing is the, you know, is the most logical answer. Because I thought, and in that moment I did think to myself, Dallas, like, if I was to think that I'm not gonna turn into one of those people That I'm gonna start robbing from people or robbing people in the street to get my fix, then that is quite ignorant and ignorant of me to think that way because I was not willing to give up the substances because by this point I had literally lost all internal coping mechanisms of how to live sober. So, and then what happened is, and, and still to this day, what I, what I will, what I do kind of wanna really highlight is still to this day. Hand on heart, my dealing was genuinely for a matter of survival of living in London. London is a very expensive city to live in.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have any income I was using, so it was survival and to subsidize my own addiction.
Hmm.
By 2015, I purposely swapped my addiction from mephedrone to crystal meth. And I first started using crystal meth as symptomatic relief of the comedown from methadone because the comedown from methadone for me was so horrific that what I come to realize is crystal meth managed, managed those symptoms. What I didn't realize at the time is crystal meth was also managing ADHD symptoms.
Wow.
So I didn't really understand what it did, you know?
Yeah.
And it wasn't for a few months until I kind of understood. But still, throughout all this, I was still engaging in chemsex daily. I was on Grindr 24/7. I'd contracted HIV through reckless transmission as a result of participating in chemsex and the first time of not using protection in 3 or 4 years, you know? And still the addiction was that bad that I was still continuing to use, still continuing to sell. And then what happened is it went from selling 20 grams of methadone on a weekend to then it finished at transporting half a kilo of crystal meth from London to Leeds to supply Leeds with crystal meth. And like anything, eventually it came on top and I got caught by accident. And I guess what deemed to be the worst thing that could have happened to me actually became the best thing that could have happened to me. And I was, I got it. That is the whole getting caught and getting raided. There was a lot, there was more raids, there was multiple, um, visits to court, but eventually I ended up getting sentenced on the 1st of November, 2018 to 32 months for possession with intent to supply, the whole alphabet really. And that's the day my kind of recovery started, I guess, so to speak, because I did, for one, I didn't think I was gonna go to prison, Dallas. I had that delusion. I was like, you know what? this can't— I can't go to prison. Like, I've never been in trouble with the police, you know. I was like, I'm an addict, I'm HIV positive, like, I can't go to prison. So there was delusion there. But also, what— also why I couldn't believe it is because I couldn't allow myself to really look at the situation I was in, because if I'd have done that, I probably would have spiraled, you know.
Mm-hmm.
But I went into prison. I had not plugged anything. I'd not taken anything, tried to get anything in with me cuz I didn't think about it. So I was looking at a 7-year comedown because by this point I'd been using every single day for 7 years. So I was looking at a 7-year comedown.
Ooh.
And so, yeah, so on top of thinking, oh my God, like Dallas, you've met me. You know, how, how am I gonna navigate prison? You know, and I'm, I've been walking around like, morning everyone, how are you?
You're like, hello, love.
Hello, love. How are you? You know, on top of trying to navigate prison, on top of a 7-year comedown from Tina and, uh, slamming and a plethora of other drugs, coke, ecstasy. I was using that on a regular. Uh, diazepam, Xanax, you know.
Wow.
I was using, I was using everything on a weekly basis, you know. But Tina was my main, you know, Tina was my, it was my constant, you know. And the third day, and I, I, you know, I don't want to trigger anyone when I, when I say this, but on the third day of being in prison, I attempted to end my own life. I attempted to hang myself, but Thank God in that moment that I didn't, I didn't know how to tie a noose and I was found by a prison officer.
Yeah.
That got me back to my cell. And in that moment, I'll never forget this, Dallas, cuz this was my first moment of clarity or first moment of awareness of how you wanna describe it. But I made myself a massive cup of tea and I must have put about 6 sugars in that cup of tea. When I made it. And I don't know if it was a sugar hit. I don't know if, but something happened when I drank that tea. And for maybe, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds to a minute, I got an overwhelming sense of positivity.
Yeah.
And I was like, so from this moment on, I'm making a promise to myself that I'm gonna do everything I can Within this moment to turn this horrendous situation into a positive situation. I've got no idea how I'm going to do it, but this is the promise that I make to myself right now. And that was in a remand prison. So I was in there for 2 months, and by the end of 2 months, um, I was in there November, December. Yeah, I'd left in January, but I'd got a job. Um, I'd got a job, I'd got myself back into education. I was trying to do my maths because I'm not very academic in that way, and I have dyscalculia, so I read numbers back to front. So I wanted to kind of get my maths qualification, and I wanted to get— I really enjoy Spanish.
Mm-hmm.
So I was just kind of finding my feet in the remand prison, and then they came up to me and they were like, Right, Murphy, pack your bags. You're moving to Brixton Prison and you've got 30 minutes to do so.
Hmm.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I, I can't, like, I'm settled. And they were like, you've got no choice. Now I found out Brixton Prison is, is kind of a naughty prison really. Like it's quite lively.
Yeah.
So I thought, wait a minute, I'm just finding my feet. You know, I hadn't, I hadn't disclosed my sexuality at this point. Yeah. Um, well, I didn't disclose my sexuality at all in prison, but, mm-hmm, I got moved to Brixton and what I thought was gonna be the worst thing that could have happened to me actually turned out to be the best thing because Brixton Prison had a drug rehab wing there, Dallas, and I didn't know anything about it.
Ah.
And with a chance meeting with a person in prison I be— I got on the drug rehabilitation wing for, uh, within 5 days of being in Brixton Prison. And I spent the rest of my sentence, which was 10 months, cuz I got out on good behavior basically, and I got out on home detention.
Right.
And so I spent 10 months in rehab and there were kind of 2 aspects to it, um, therapeutic and 12-step. So I chose to do the 12-step. part of it and you only did the first 5 steps, but they weren't your typical NA or AA steps. They were kind of modified by the counselors that ran it.
Oh, interesting.
And yeah, and it was from there that it was just, so for me it was brilliant because the recovery was my escapism from prison. Does that make sense? So I threw myself into recovery because I was like, this is now my opportunity. This is time outta life. It's time to address my behaviors, you know, to look at what is going on with me internally so that I don't end up back here again because I do not have another prison sentence in me.
Yeah.
And it was also my escape from my day, from the day-to-day carnage of prison, cuz prison is carnage, you know?
Yeah.
And it was upon release, well, it was my drugs worker in prison that inspired me to go into what I go, what I'm doing today within working in drug and alcohol services.
Mm-hmm.
Because she was so good and I always used to be like, you're like a silent ninja. You get in here and you make me work out what's going on. You don't tell me what it is. What I come to realize now is phenomenal motivational interviewing skills, you know?
Hmm.
And it was upon release, Dallas, that, you know, it took me about a year cuz we hit lockdown and I was still suffering with low self-confidence. You know, I didn't have the confidence to reach out to any drug and alcohol services and be like, you know, oh, you know, is there any volunteering? And I got into volunteering. From the volunteering, I got into a trainee role. From a trainee role, I got into an official recovery coordinator role. I wasn't working in within Chemsex at that point. I was working with alcohol and non-opiate clients. But from the minute I'd got my foot in the door to Forward Leeds, I'd said, listen, we've got a massive gap in here in this service, and not just this service, but a lot of services around the UK outside of London, and that is focused Chemsex support.
Yeah.
I was like, I know chemsex is, it's very prevalent in Leeds. I've ex— I've been on the chemsex scene personally in Leeds, but why are we not seeing anybody come through the door? Why, why is there nobody here? Why are we not supporting any clients? You know?
Mm-hmm.
And my manager was, my manager, and I mean, you met my manager Hannah now. My manager previous to that was Ruth, and they are just amazing, Dallas. They were just like, right, okay. You know, we see that there's a gap. It's amazing you've identified it. How can we support you to bridge this? What can you do? What can we do? And that's how the Chemsex support started to come about. And then I was side hustling for a bit. So you can take the boy outta dealing, but you can't take the dealer outta the boy, I guess. You know? Uh, so, right. I, I was supporting 35 to 40 alcohol and non-opiate clients that were not chemsex-related. But every second Thursday of the month, I was doing a chemsex dropping clinic in an LGBT organization, MESMAT.
Mm-hmm.
And so then supporting clients that way, that maybe clients just didn't want to come into treatment. They didn't want to be, um, maybe they didn't want to be associated with the stigma of coming into a drug and alcohol service. Maybe they didn't think that our drug and alcohol service were able to support because At one point, nobody really knew about chemsex. The workers didn't know about it. They didn't understand what the drugs were, you know. And maybe people that think they didn't have an issue, didn't have a problem, because it can be a matter of perspective for individuals about their use, or maybe they just wanted to come in and to have a talk, you know. So I was doing that for a while, side hustling, and then my manager put in a Um, a bid to public health, and then public health, uh, granted the bid and we got funded by public health for a focused chemsex worker.
Wow.
And we are the first organization in Leeds that has created the chemsex-focused support, which I don't really say that often 'cause I don't wanna feel like I'm bragging or showing off, but it's something that I'm really proud of myself and Forward Leeds for doing.
Mm-hmm. Brag about it.
Yeah. I hope I didn't go off on one there.
No, it's interesting how you became, you went from this supplier of drugs in Leeds to drug treatment in Leeds.
Yeah. And the heart, the kind of heartbreaking thing about this, Dallas, is sometimes when I've worked with individuals and I've said, right, Let's do a timeline. Let's do a timeline of when this was introduced to you, what was going on for you at that time. And sometimes the timeline is at the time that I was supplying it.
Yeah. Yeah. That's gotta be confronting a little.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. It was, it was a very, it was a very good, it was, it was like a very good slap in the face. And I mean that in a positive way, not in a negative way.
Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. I, I love it. I really, I want to go back and underscore a few things that you've, you mentioned in that. Thank you for sharing. Oh no, that, what a, what a story. What a story. You could write a, you could write a book. I'm sure you could because yeah. Um, no, but you, you talked to, you, you mentioned disease. Your internal disease. And it seemed like meth or mephedrone. So those who are listening, if you hear MCAT or 3-MMC or any of that, it's just mephedrone. Mephedrone is more common in Europe, especially London, than it is in the US. Because in the US, we just, it's just not enough for us. We got to have the Tina, right? We got to have the meth. Um, but the, the, what you thought was the answer to your disease was the meth. It sounded like it was, you know, it was making you feel contentment.
Yeah. So what I, what I come to realize is every single day growing up, even into my 20s, into my 30s, I had this self-loathing. Yeah, I never thought I was good enough. And I'm, I'm sure you hear this all the time, Dallas. I never thought I was good enough. I thought I was worthless. You know, I could get the— I could get a great job with dancing, and all of a sudden I'd be like, why have I got my job? Because I'm, I'm shit, so why have I been given it?
Yeah.
I felt like if I was, say for example, you know, me and you were really good friends and we were hanging out in London I'd feel that me just being in your presence was shortchanging you from a friendship. You know, I felt like, I felt like if you ordered a really nice outfit online and all of a sudden like a Wish version of this outfit turned up, that's how I felt as a person. I never, I never felt good enough, ever felt good enough. But the minute I took crystal, the minute I took methadone.
Mm-hmm.
It's the minute that— and that's what I mean, that dis-ease within myself went away. And that's when I became really confident and I would be like, yeah, you know, I am, I am a good dancer and tomorrow I'm gonna really get back to auditioning again. And, you know, I'm gonna go to class and I'm gonna do this. That never came. You know, it did when I was high. I had all these amazing plans. I was going to conquer the world, you know, but the minute I dropped down and I say mephedrone more than crystal because crystal, it, it, you know, the half-life to crystal is very long. So, you know, it keeps you up there for a lot longer. But the minute, you know, with mephedrone, after about 2 hours, the minute I slightly dropped from my high, Dallas, is the minute all that self-loathing. Came back in, you know, and from from being a kid, you know, my mom's partner, my dad was not a very nice person. My mom's partner was always calling me a worthless piece of shit. I was being emotionally abused, and and you know, I forgave my mom's partner for that, you know. But when you're and then when you're getting bullied as a child, and family members are bullying you, friends are bullying you. All of a sudden, you know, and that was all mainly with the family and friends, was mainly around sexuality, you know, but the emotional bullying was a power thing with my mum's partner. I, at a young age, I thought, well, if everybody's doing it, it must be me.
Yeah.
There must be something wrong with me. So, and what I didn't realize is I carried that all throughout my adult life. But the minute I took the drugs, it turned me into a person that I always wanted to be. Confident, you know, would not be afraid to speak my mind, you know, would be, I could walk into a chill out, strip my clothes off and be like, right, here we go. Now, Dallas, you can't—
Yeah.
Me into a room with 10 people that I know without getting anxiety, you know? So these drugs kind of what I wanted in my head, cuz I wanted to be that confident. I wanted to be that really liked person that, you know, was friends with everybody in my head. And some of it was delusion. Crystal, MCAT, Chemsex, it kind of turned me into that person. So all Chemsex, Tina, MCAT, Mephedrone, all that was a solution to a problem that I had been carrying with me for years and years.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, you really stirred up something in me. Some emotion in terms of, I'm just, it just, you brought back something that I had forgotten about. And that is, I would get high and all of a sudden everything seemed fine. Like I was going to get the money to pay the rent. I was going to get the breakthrough. I was going to get— You know, I was, I was into the black market on the black web. I was buying Social Security numbers. You know, this was my, this was my break. I was going to get the big money. I was going to write the, you know, I was going to like, I have everything figured out and, um, everything's going to be fine. And it was such a delusional space, you know, and even to the point of when the day I was getting evicted, I just like, like you were saying, like, I'll never, I can't go to, I'll never go to prison. I've never even been in trouble. Like, I was standing there with nothing, all of my furniture gone, and the sheriff with his arm around me, you know, and wow, I don't know where this emotion's coming from, but I was like, I can't get evicted. I can't be homeless. You know, I just can't be. And he just like, they could tell, I guess, that I was high because, you know, he was like, I'm sorry, you really, you have to leave now. Or we're going to have to take you to jail. Um, but I just, if you're listening, like, think about, think about the delusion you might be under. And as that the chemicals staying in your brain, like, what is the false belief you're, you're holding onto that reality is going to hit you in the face when you come down every time? But what is this false belief you're holding onto that it's a, it's a fucking delusion. A chemical hijacking delusion. Yeah, so I just wanted to point that out, that thank you for bringing that up because it really reminded me of just how sad it is.
Yeah, no, and thank you for sharing that as well, Dallas.
Yeah. And you know, you— now I've lost track of where I was actually going from what you just said. But I just want to thank you again for sharing all that. But yes, what I was going to say is we get addicted to the feeling of being the person we want to be, just like you said, right? Like you can say you do chemsex because you're horny. You can say it's for the sex. It ain't. You know, where it gives you a free pass to be the person you've always wanted to be.
Yeah.
Instead of doing the work to get there. Right? I mean, that's what it's about. And it's such a statement of what's happening in our culture that we're— that for gay men to live in the society we're in is so difficult. And, you know, and there's so much pressure and you're always trying to be somebody different and you can never be who you want to be that this has given us the the opportunity to be that person, that what a statement that's making of the world that we're living in today. That's the rise of it.
Yeah. 100%.
So anyway, yeah, thank you for sharing all of this. And one thing that you keep saying and that I want to really highlight is that the worst thing that happened to me became the best thing that happened to me. And, you know, if For somebody who's listening, who maybe just lost their job, or maybe their partner's walking out, maybe they just, maybe they just got arrested or something. I really want you to latch onto this. I mean, it, it, it may not feel like it right now, but the worst thing that's happening to you could very well be the best thing that's ever going to happen to you. Isn't that right?
Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, When my sister, my sister always says to me, one of my sisters came down and supported me while I was on going through the trial. It was just one court day. It wasn't ongoing. Sorry. And she said to me, Darren, I will never forget your face when the judge gave your sentence. She said, that will haunt me for the rest of, for the rest of my life. And she said, I've never seen a look of terror.
Mm-hmm.
Like it.
Mm-hmm.
Now, in that moment, I was, I was like, oh my God, this, this can't, this just can't be. This can't be real. It's got to be a dream. It can't be real. This is horrific. I'm going into, I'm going into prison. I'm gonna be locked up. I've, I've got no drugs. I'm on a 7-year comedown. This literally, I could not think of anything in that moment that could have been worse than that.
Mm-hmm.
in that moment.
Yeah.
You know, now that then was the perfect opportunity for me, and I know it, it gave me the time outta life, but, you know, I guess with prison you can choose to pull on your resources, you know, that are on offer there. You know, some people choose to pull on it, some people don't. But, you know, I thought, no, after having that big cup of tea with a million sugars in it, You know, that must have spiked my dopamine at some point, you know, but it was like, no, actually, like, I choose to turn this situation, this horrendous situation into a, into an amazing situation for myself.
Right.
You know, and I don't know how, I don't know how I'm going to do it. I don't know what it's going to consist of, but I know now that I make This promise to myself that this is what I'm gonna do.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right.
So that that worst situation then became the best situation because, and I'm sorry, I don't want to chat chat chat away. I've got my pens for me ADHD to try to calm me down. But my I got released from prison on the 23rd of October 2019. Now. My mum passed from COVID on the 12th of October, 2020. Now, me and my mam were extremely close. We were so close with me and my mum, and it was it was horrific. It was COVID. Everything was going on. But you know what? I was so grateful in that moment that I had been to prison because coming out of prison. getting, getting sober gave me a year sober with my mum.
Mm.
And that is something that I will always be truly grateful for. And that's something that, because if I hadn't have gone to prison, Dallas, I would've still been using. When I found out my mum had caught COVID, by the time I got up there, it had been too late cuz she'd have been in hospital anyway. We wouldn't have been able to see her, you know, or I might not have made it up because I might have missed my train. I might, you know, so going into prison, that the worst situation that could have happened to me is now the best situation, the best thing that's ever happened to me at this point.
Yes. What you're, what you're referring to is what I talk about a lot, and that is that everything is happening for me, not to me.
Yeah.
If, if you can switch that perspective, everything's happening for me, right? So just think about you and this infamous cup of tea, you know, with all the sugary tea, right? And you say to yourself, I promise right now that I'm going to make the best of this, right? I promise this to myself. And then you get news out of the blue that you're being switched to this other prison, right? You could have said, you know, you could have given up or you could have, you know, seen that in this negative light. You could have said, what the fuck? All, whatever you could have said, but that was happening for you. But you didn't know until later.
Right.
But if you could just take on this belief, like, look, I made a decision and now I'm giving it up. Everything, everything that happens after that is happening for me. And if you could adopt that, then, and like, like you won't have to see it in retrospect like we're seeing now. Like you went to prison so you could spend a year sober with your mom before she passed.
Yeah.
And, but if you can see that beforehand and just take it that way, you're, you're gonna be so much you're going to live in such a better state of being and see it all as happening for you. You're the living example of that, I think.
Thank you. Because when I was going through the rehab in prison, I was like, you know what? The universe has given me what I needed, not what I wanted. Because what I wanted was to be out there still selling, still slamming, You know, still using, still attending chillouts. You know, that's what I wanted. But the universe 100% gave me what I needed. And one thing that I kind of missed out because, and I think it's, it's quite relevant to what we're speaking about, is when I first arrived in Brixton Prison, the, you have an open day in prison. And what that means is you will go and everybody that has jobs or education will be in one room, and you can go around and go, okay, what jobs are on offer, you know, uh, what's the subject of education, etc., etc. So I made sure that I went around every single table, even if I wasn't interested in any of them, just to see what they were offering and what I could do. And I made sure that I went around every single one, and I got to the Samaritans.
Yeah.
And to me, I was like, You know what, after my attempt to end my own life, the Samaritans was really screaming at me.
Right.
And I was like, so if I could be that support for somebody that has come through prison, they don't have to be, uh, identify as a gay male, they don't have to be, um, involved in chemsex, but maybe they're wanting to end their own life. If I could be there to help talk them through that, because that's what I would've loved in that moment. It's somebody just to have a bit of understanding, you know, then this is great. So I said to the, I said to the guy that was running the stand, listen, I've got an addiction to crystal meth. I'm 2 months sober. Would that be a problem in me trying to get work with the Samaritans here in prison? And he was like, oh my God, no. He said, but listen, you said you having trouble with addiction? I said, yeah. He said, I'm on the rehab wing. I didn't even know there was a rehab wing, Dallas, in there. I had no idea. Nobody had told me.
I didn't know.
He said, give me your prison number and I will tell the counselors. So I gave him my prison number. So in that chance meeting of me just saying, oh, I've got an addiction and making sure I went round every table, the outcome was me to be in rehab for 10 months.
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. The universe gives you what you need, not what you want. Yeah. Yeah. I love that very much. I want to— that's a soundbite from here. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, one thing about this is that similar to me with you, like I talk about, you know, people ask me, how did you stop using? Well, it was either that or go to prison for me. So we, we have drug treatment court here. So I was able to go before a judge every 2 weeks and I had to jump through a bunch of hoops and get tested like 4 times a week and all this kind of stuff. Um, I was in a court system for a year and a half. And so I did that instead of serving my sentence.
Right.
So they dropped, dropped, dropped my charges, expunged my charges. Right. So it's a great program and saves them a ton of money.
I was gonna say, that sounds, that sounds great. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's really good. Um, and so, but I still had a choice point at some point where, you know, when I got out of there after that, there wasn't any safety net for me. I still could have chosen to go back, but you know, you, you and I have talked about this idea of the reasons why we quit. Right. Like, what is the, what is the driving force of why you're quitting? Is it because you think you need to, or is it because you really want to?
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
And it's, so this was something, you know, it's just something that when I was on my recovery journey after I come out of prison, it was something that I took a really long time to kind of think about and look look at my past behaviors and look at my addiction. And what I, what I come to realize is for me, and it, it's not anything that's ever been set in stone by any psychologist or anything like that, but it was just something that really, um, made me start to understand my addiction a lot better. And what I was going through in that, in that time was I knew for years I needed to stop. I knew I'd contracted HIV through chemsex and through— I have to, even though it was reckless transmission, I still made decisions in that moment to not use protection, you know? So I had to take accountability for that. I knew at that point I needed to stop. I knew that when I'd OD'd on G and other substances in the middle of London, And I'd blacked out for four and a half hours and then turned up at 5016 Street and don't know how I'd got there and don't remember what's going on. I knew I needed to stop at that point when I'd lost and I'd lost the biggest amount of weight, Dallas, and I was about six stone piss way through at one point. You know, slamming injuries on my arms everywhere, lumps everywhere, you know. All that I knew, you know, I'd been raided, you know, I'd been raided by the police twice. You know, I knew I needed to stop, but the want to stop was still not there at that point. It still was not there. You know?
That's right.
And that's right. What, what I'd come, what I kind of know now after 7, 7 years of abstinence, cuz I think me and you share the same sobriety month, November 2019.
Mine's August 18th.
Ah, sorry. I thought it was November. Right. Okay.
No.
So, but you know, this is something that I didn't, I didn't understand straight away. I didn't, I didn't know straight away is that The one for me is that I had, the reason why I didn't want to is because I genuinely did not know how to live anymore, Dallas.
Mm-hmm.
Like I did, I used to call myself a ghost of society. So what that meant is I would be high, I'd be awake for days, and I would be walking around London.
Mm-hmm.
And I would see people working. going about their day-to-day, and I would be so envious, but so, yeah, so petrified at the same time that they were leading a normal life. And how do they do that?
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And so that, to me, I felt like I was a ghost of society because I always felt like I was just sat watching everybody go by me. And the one wasn't there is because I did not want to let go of that solution to a problem because I didn't know how to live anymore sober. I just didn't know how to do it. And it scared the living hell out of me.
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I relate to that so much. It's just, you do feel like a ghost. You feel like you're having an out-of-body experience, you know, but the whole world are like non-playing characters in a video game.
Exactly that. Yeah, exactly that, Dallas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. What a life. What a life. Yeah. Um, but you, you found your want-to. Right. You found your true heart, your true heart passion here to do something new and to make changes in your life, in your life, but others. So I think what a story, what a model you are. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's an inspiration for all of us. And I hope if you're listening, you know, you may not be on the verge of going to prison, you know, but what, but what, what, when will you make a choice in your heart that you're going to make a promise to yourself? I'm going to be someone different. I'm going to make the best of the worst. You know, when do you, when will you make that decision? Don't let it take homelessness or losing a job or losing your family or your partner. Don't let it take that. It doesn't have to. I mean, not everybody has to have a complete rock bottom like I did and like Darren did. You don't have to have that. It's just all about the choice. Go make a cup of tea, dump a bunch of sugar in it.
Dump a bunch of sugar in it.
That's the lesson. That's the lesson here.
Yeah. And, and I think as well, I think with the, the, the difference between a need and a want for me.
Yes.
Also, what was also tied up in that was for many years, Dallas, I was admitting for, for years throughout, I kind of wore it like a badge of honor. Yeah, I'm a Tina addict. I slam, you know, I am an addict. There were— I could admit, I know I was an addict, but I couldn't accept I was an addict because I always had that internal, that internal voice, not like a psychosis voice, but that internal dialogue going, but actually you're not really an addict because you don't match the image of what you, what an addict looks like to you.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you don't match that. And also, if you really wanted to, you could just stop, you know? So then I had to come and realize that there was also a difference between the admitting and the accepting. With me, in the substitute.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Need to and want to. And what was your last thing? What were you, what was the last thing you said?
So the admitting and accepting.
Admitting and accepting.
Yeah, the minute I accepted was the minute when I was saying, yes, I am a crystal meth addict, but that internal, that internal voice going, Ah, but you know what, if you, you could do one, you could do one slam if you wanted to. That had completely gone.
Oh, right.
That had completely gone.
Yeah.
And it was like, no, there is— I know in my heart of hearts I cannot use Tina.
Yeah.
Or any stimulant, or any stimulant successfully, if you want to call it in a way successfully. It just— and And you know what, I'm, it took me, it took me, I had about a 2-week grieving period in prison when I realized that was it. 'Cause it was like losing a best friend. It was like losing a parent. It was like losing a partner, you know? And today, you know, I'm like, I just, I accept it, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. At some point you have to, you have to accept. And that's where a lot of, that's where a lot of the guys are that I work with is they don't have a rock bottom. You know, some of these high-functioning, more affluent men who, you know, they're not using every day. The consequences have not outweighed the pleasure yet, the benefit.
Yes.
Right. And they can't, and they haven't accepted, like you said, they haven't accepted that I cannot use. Period. Yeah. It's just not going to happen. It just is just, you, there's not just a little bit of meth, right? There's no negotiation with this.
Definitely not. Right. Definitely not.
And that's what, and that's what, that's like you're saying, that's what we used to, we justify. Yeah. Well, I smoke, I don't slam. Well, I only use once a month. I don't use every weekend.
Yeah.
Who cares? Right? Like if you're putting meth in your body, you're putting meth in your body. Right. And if you're listening to me, it's negatively affected your life. So don't try to minimize that.
Yeah, 100%. And I think when it, when it comes to, you know, if individuals are coming and they're seeing me in service and Ours is a free service as well. It's voluntary. They, you know, and they're like, oh, well, you know, I, I kind of use it. I can kind of use it quite successfully. And I'm like, but you are here with me. You are here seeking support.
Yeah.
So the indication is that you are not using it successfully because you are here seeing me now and we're supporting through it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for introducing this. I mean, we got to this, this, this idea, and I want you, if you're listening, to really ask your question. Are you, are you quitting because you need to, or are you quitting because you want to? In terms, in other words, if you're quitting because, well, it's meth, I shouldn't use it, or my family wants me to quit, or I might lose my partner, or Blah, blah, blah. Those, those reasons aren't sustainable enough. You have to want to because it's not who you are anymore, period. Like, this is not who I am, and I'm going to make a pledge to myself to show up as the best version of me. If that's your reasoning, that's your want to quit. Not, I need to because I might lose something. Because you're going to lose it, and it's not going to be enough. You're not going to lose enough until you go to prison, or you're in the hospital, or you lose your life. Yeah. Did I miss anything? Do we miss anything, Darren? Is there anything you? I don't think we covered a lot.
Yeah, we covered a lot. I'm glad. I'm glad. Well, hope I articulated it. I love.
You did. Very clearly.
Yeah, I hope it doesn't come with subtitles.
I understood you. And if I can, most people can. Um, so, but yeah, I just want to make sure there wasn't anything else we, uh, could have mentioned that, that you think we should have. Um, but we covered a lot of ground and I just want to say thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for what you're doing and what is What a success story you are and, um, very inspirational for me.
Oh, Dallas, thank you so much. Genuinely, I really appreciate that. And right back at you as well. I mean, Dallas, I was following your work for quite a while before you got in touch. And I don't know if I said this to you when we had the WhatsApp call, but like when you got in touch, I was actually fangirling. I was like, and I can't remember if I'd, if I'd told you that when When we'd had the WhatsApp call, I couldn't remember, but I was like, but no. And Dallas, thank you for all the work you do as well. And thank you for this podcast because I listen to it all the time. I recommend it to every single client I work with. I'm like, get the podcast, listen to it. You know, there are resources on there. There's ways of thinking that you could adopt, you know, there's strategies. So thank you for all the work you're doing, Dallas, and it has been an absolute pleasure to be on here and chatting with you, love. Thank you.
I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this. Don't forget there's a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode. I forgot to mention that at the beginning. The link will be in the show notes, or you can get the, the study guide in your email if you go to drdallasbragg.com and click on blog and subscribe. All right, see you all next week.
