EP 3:57 The Neuroscience of Addiction with Dr. Nicole Labor

It's a hot topic.

It's crazy. It's crazy. So, okay. So with stimulants like methamphetamine specifically, but really any, any drug that's like highly rewarding, um, you, when you pair it with something that's also naturally highly rewarding, like sex, right? And then—

Chemsex,

sexualized drug

use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for tuning in. I've told you guys Season three is our season of big names, and we have a big name here today. Big name. I get I get so many people sending me the the reels from Facebook and Instagram of our guest today, Dr. Nicole Labor. Have you seen this lady? Have you heard this lady? Have you heard? Have you seen her? Have you heard her? And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. But my I wanted to introduce my new friend, hopefully, Dr. Nicole Labor. She is the eadic. She's an addiction medical professional, sweary godmother, and person in long-term recovery. I discovered you first, Nicole, from about, I guess, like 20 weeks ago or something from your reel about chemsex, because it of course popped up in my algorithm because that's all I talk about is chemsex. But really, you're really somebody who catches my— who caught my attention and catches everybody's attention. But I just want to say welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being here. We really appreciate it.

Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

If you can't tell, I'm a little nervous for some reason. I don't know. But, um, I ordered your book. It's not your latest book. I guess it was the 2019 book. Um,

it's the best one.

Addictaholic Deconstructed. I just wanna say I've rec— I've recommended this to all my clients. And if you're listening, I want you to order this book because I've just, I've heard the science. I've been around the science. I've, I've talked about the science for so long, but just this book really broke it down in a way that helped me finally get some things clicked in me. And, and as a result, I feel like I have been a better coach, a better support to the people that I serve. So thank you very much for writing this. Of course.

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for your support.

Yeah, yeah. So I wanna start with a few questions. Can you help us? So there's a, you, as you say in your book, there's like a little debate about addiction is a disease, addiction's not a disease. You know, I have, I've had my opinions about the way the word has been used. Like you, one of your sentences here is, some call it disease because bless their bleeding hearts, they need to believe that the addict has no choice in their fuckery and tomfoolery. Um, and I feel like I lean on that side as far as like people throwing around the word, but to read your book, I, I've, I've changed, I've changed my mind. And so can you just help us as listeners explain to us how addiction is a disease?

Sure. Well, I mean, that's a loaded question because it is a really long explanation, but so realistically, I think the way that I look at it, and my good buddy, Dr. Kenny Clark, you know, he says, he says, what difference does it make, honestly?

Exactly. Right?

Like, there's something wrong. Something is wrong and we need to address it. But the reality is this, like, with any other disease process, what we see is, like, especially chronic diseases, we'll see, like, people making choices and doing things, like, to themselves, what they eat, how they move, how they don't move, what— you know, they smoke cigarettes, they use drugs, like, they make choices. And for a certain number of them, those continued choices result in biological dysfunction, physiological dysfunction. You get a change in the body, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, like, you can smoke cigarettes forever, and some people develop COPD, which is the inability of the lungs to exchange air, right? That's an actual physiological change. COPD doesn't occur in every smoker. It only occurs in the people who have the lung change.

Hmm. Okay.

Addiction is a maladaptive learning system, right? Our brains do what they normally do, but in a certain percentage of people, they get— their brain starts wiring in a way that's different. than other people. And when that happens, it becomes increasingly difficult for them to stop using. It becomes increasingly difficult for them to prioritize the things that they should prioritize. And their impulse control gets terrible. And then they develop learning loops that are associated with the behavior. That's the disease process. There's a physiological change in the brain. That is the disease. Right. Not everybody gets that.

Right, right. Okay. That helped me. That helped me understand kind of, yeah, just helping people know that they keep doing something that they don't want to do, right? I mean, that is the nature of addiction, right?

Right.

Right, right. So one thing that you explain in the book that helped me finally get this, I don't know, maybe everybody listening understands it, but When we're— brain is flooded with dopamine because with, you know, we're dealing here with crystal meth mainly. Um, some of the listeners are dealing with methadone or monkey dust, uh, PV alpha, whatever. Um, all of those, you know, flood the brain with dopamine. And like you said, most any addiction is, it fucks with dopamine, right?

Yes.

But so then the brain downregulates the transmitters. Right. Right. I've heard that so many times, but never conceptualized it until you explained how it, you, you compared it to Walmart cashiers. Um, could you, could you go through that with us? And I think that we could better understand how that works.

That's a, it's actually funny that you say that because like I went back to that explanation and I was like, I don't love this anymore.

Really? Um, yes.

So I have a new one. I have a new explanation. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Use your new one.

Okay. Okay.

Okay. So your reward center, right? Your midbrain is a baseball field. And okay. You have 100 players on that baseball field. They're just standing around waiting to catch balls.

Okay. Okay. That relates to my audience.

You see where I went?

Right. Thank you.

The balls are the dopamine molecules.

Ah. Perfect.

The players, the players are the receptors.

Gotcha.

So every time you do something enjoyable, your brain dumps a bunch of baseballs into the field.

Okay.

You need, let's say you need 10 players to catch a ball in order for your brain to go, yeah, I like that. I'm going to do it again. Right.

Okay. Okay.

So normally things like that you enjoy doing, so, you know, whatever, playing an instrument or listening to music, exercising, things like that will release like 20 to 30 baseballs into the field.

Okay.

Probably because if there's 100 players on the field, there's a good chance 10 of 'em are gonna catch a ball.

Right? Okay. Right.

So your brain goes, oh yeah, I like that.

Okay.

So now you start using something like methamphetamine that dumps 400 balls into the field. Okay? So now you have 400 balls being dumped into this field. All the players are catching balls, right?

Mm-hmm. Yep.

So the manager of the team comes out and is like, I am not fucking paying the salary for all these players. I don't need them. So he starts pulling players off the field.

Okay.

So the receptors get downregulated.

Okay.

And he essentially then, you know, keeps pulling them off because we keep dumping balls into the field. And now we're left with maybe 10 or 11 players scattered about the field.

Okay.

So now when you listen to music and you dump 12 balls into the field, chances are those 10 players are not gonna catch 'em in time.

Ah, yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So things that used to be enjoyable are no longer enjoyable.

Yeah.

And, and the only way for you to feel good anymore is to dump 400 balls into that field to ensure those 10 players catch one.

Right.

And so the drugs become essentially the normal.

Yeah. Yeah. That, that would, that did hit more. That did hit. Yeah. When you started with the sports analogy, I was like, eh, I know,

I know.

But then, but then you said balls. Then you said balls. I know.

That's all it takes. That's all it takes.

Um, so then when does the, when, what, when does the manager start putting players back on the field? With time?

With time away from large quantities of dopamine.

Okay.

So as long as you keep dumping dopamine into that field, they're not gonna put players back, which is why, you know, I talk a lot about, um, harm reduction versus abstinence. Yeah. You know, optimization. But the reality is if you're dumping any large quantity dopamine into that space, you're not gonna get players back on the field.

Okay. Gotcha. Even if, even tapered off. So we're, if, as far as harm reduction goes, if it was somebody was tapering off, are they, they're at least getting there? Or are you saying, what are you saying there?

So, well, no, because the reality is like, if you're using the meth, if you're tapering off, the, the harm reduction is that you, in, in your life, right? You're, you're spending less money, you're spending less time high. Yeah. You're spending, you're possibly making fewer bad choices.

Yeah.

But as far as brain healing goes, the brain doesn't care if you're dumping 400 balls in once a day or 10 times a day. The players are not going to come back as long as that part of the brain knows it could get it. And the other issue is, like, the crossover, the cross-addiction or whatever. Like, so substituting one drug for another. So people who stop using meth but start using cannabis or kratom or something like that because it's lesser evil. And it definitely is, right? You're definitely not going to be psychotic from kratom or something like that. But, but you're still dumping a large number of balls in that field. And so you're not bringing players back into, into the mix.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. So you're, you're real on chemsex. You talked about the stacking. And how chemsex is a bit unique. Can you, can you go through that with us?

Um, yeah, I will. I will. I just want to tell you, like, I, I put that reel out because I think I had like a couple of people ask me when I was doing a series, like, hey, could you do one on chemsex? And I was like, sure, you know, a couple people are asking. That is still my biggest fucking reel.

Like, I've noticed. It's, it's a hot topic.

It's crazy. It's crazy. So, okay. So with stimulants like methamphetamine specifically, but really any, any drug that's like highly rewarding, you, when you pair it with something that's also naturally highly rewarding, like sex, Right. And then you also take into account that a lot of times, especially when we're talking about chemsex, we're not just talking about straight, you know, intimacy. We're not talking about just like this monogamous sexual relationship. A lot of times there's porn and there's fetish and there's all kinds of other things. All of those things start getting paired together. So the brain starts treating them like it's one experience. So sex becomes a drug, like, cue, and the drug becomes a sexual cue. And so then people start getting what we call, like, euphoric recall, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Which, your brain is so fucking good at pulling up, like, highlight reels. And it's like, it'll show you the intensity and the arousal and the confidence, like, whatever felt so good. But it doesn't give you, like, the crash or the consequences or the 3 days of fucking misery afterwards, right? It doesn't give you the emotional That a lot of people experience. So the craving isn't— doesn't start as like, oh, I just, I want meth. It starts as like being horny.

Mm-hmm.

Opening an app, seeing a particular kind of porn, or thinking about a certain person, right? Remembering an experience. Those cues will light up the whole learned reward network. And that's what makes the recovery from chemsex really complicated because you can avoid the drug, but presumably we don't want somebody to have to avoid like sexuality for the rest of their life, right? You have to uncouple the 2 things and teach the brain that like sex can be rewarding without the drug.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Process, you know, and one thing that you said in your reel at the end was You're not gonna like this, but it's time, you know? Right. It's time. A lot of time. And I think you, you have to protect yourself, like you said, with it. It, you can't, to me, it's difficult for you to return to your norm. Like, like you said, watching porn or even just opening an app can start the process of, you know, Yes. Um, hearing a sound. And like, I was, I was reading a study this week about People with methamphetamine use disorder, the visual cues last forever. Like for me, like I was at a restaurant, it's been 8 years in my recovery. I was at a restaurant and they were making crème brûlée and I heard the torchlight, you know? And it's like, I'm just taken aback all of a sudden. Like, when can I not just eat in a restaurant? You know? But my brain was like, torch, smoke, pipe, you know? Memory. It just goes. It's just interesting to me how it just stays in there.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the glutamate piece, right? It's really fucking annoying, our stupid brains. But like, I— Can you— Yeah.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah.

No, you go ahead.

Yeah, I was gonna say, can you talk about glutamate?

Yeah. So glutamate is like, I always call it the executive assistant to dopamine, right?

Yeah.

So dopamine is like, dopamine is what stamps something as important. Like, do this, remember this. But glutamate is, like, what's building the file around that. Right. So every time something is stamped as important, glutamate's like, let me write that down. And then anything surrounding that is, you know, getting cataloged. So, like, when you repeatedly pair 2 things together that are rewarding, you— these glutaminergic circuits are strengthening those connections because you're getting such reward from the whole process. Really. So, you have, like, things like NMDA and AMPA receptor activity, long-term potentiation, right? Which, like, who cares? Basically, neurons are repeatedly firing together.

Yeah.

They become more efficient at activating each other. So when you're firing neurons related to sex and you're firing neurons related to drug use at the same exact time, they get really good at activating each other. That's what glutamate does. It kind of ties the whole thing together so that everything can be essentially more efficient. Although in our case, it's, it's more problematic, but the design of it was to make our brains more efficient, efficient at doing things for survival and, you know, for, for benefit. So like your brain learns, you know, meth feels good, but it's, it's meth plus sex plus Grindr plus this type of porn plus this room plus this person.

Mm-hmm.

Plus this time of night all start to become these, like, conditioned stimuli. Yeah. And after enough, like, repetition, you don't need the drug anymore to start the loop. Just any cue will activate that loop. You know, just like you said, like, you hear a torch, like, it's the same process. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't— I remember even me, I— the first time I got IV vitamins, Like I went and got IV vitamins.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Um, the taste in my mouth reminded me of heroin and it had been 20 years.

Oh, wow.

But I went, holy shit, don't let any fucking new people in recovery get IV vitamins.

Right, right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of my listeners and me, we would go to give blood, you know, in early recovery. That we've used, you know, intravenously.

Yeah.

Huge trigger. Huge trigger. Takes a long time. It took a long time for me to not lose it, you know, when I was given blood. Yeah. Something you said too, or in the book too about glutamate is, doesn't it, you were talking about you also get lying can be stamped as pleasurable, right? Because lying and addiction. And so then you're kind of You kind of get a pleasure from lying, from being dishonest. Or in, in the chemsex case, maybe it's the sneaky cruising, like going to the, to the, uh, park. And that gets stamped as along with the meth and addiction or being sneaky or stealing. Or, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that go along with a lot of people who use chemsex that get, you know, kind of in the profile of you're gonna be dishonest, you're gonna steal, you're gonna try to get one over on me, all that kind of thing. Is that right? Is that the— Is that what's happening?

Yeah. Well, and it's all the same. It's, it's all part of the same exact process. It's just whatever got you that dopamine release, right? So if I know that lying, if I know that being shady, if I know that being secretive gets me to that end result of tons of dopamine, then my brain is cataloging those behaviors as linked to The dopamine, you know? And so then just lying or being shady in some way or sneaky or whatever will actually like make me feel a little excited with the anticipation, right? It's the anticipation that starts to kick in.

But, but I see like family members, friends, do they, they kind of make a moral judgment sometimes. On the person for lying. I mean, is it just part of the whole package, the disease?

Yeah. Well, of course it is. So like when we're talking about the disease of addiction, right? We're talking about multiple things happening, right? So we're talking about the dopamine and the reward center and all of that. But when we're building this road, right? So the road, like, so we're gonna call it the road to pleasure or escape from discomfort, right? We discover that using drugs and having sex at the same time, and then all the things that are surrounding it, the lying or the anticipation, the planning, the app, the dating, all that stuff gets linked together, right? And so we essentially, we're building this road from A to B. I feel A, I wanna feel B. I'm either escaping discomfort or I'm chasing pleasure. The high.

Yep.

Our brains are efficient. So every time we do the same thing, that road gets wider and wider, right? So we're, we're, we keep using, we keep doing it, we keep engaging. That becomes the widest road in our brain. That becomes the most efficient way for our brain to get from A to B. So in order for us to start building a new road, in order for us to find another way to escape discomfort and feel good, We have to get off that road, right? We have to get off that one and start building a new one. And then there's a period of discomfort while that's happening. That being said, part of that process is the decision-making part of our brain, right? The part of our brain where higher cognitive function happens, executive function, that stops being used. Mm-hmm. Right? Because we have this highway. I don't need to think it through. I don't need to plan. I don't need to look at pros and cons. I'm just gonna get from A to B. That becomes weaker.

Okay.

And the weakness of that is associated with like, so people with addiction know that lying is wrong. Most people I know who have addiction are fucking amazing people and they have great value systems and they know right from wrong. And in fact, their guilt and shame about their lying and shadiness probably feeds that loop.

Mm-hmm.

More than anything. But the fact is, so, but so why are these people who know right from wrong, why are they lying? Why are they, you know, doing the thing that's making them feel guilty? And it's because their executive function is impaired, right? Their ability to prioritize values over that need for the gratification is impaired. And it takes recognition and pause and like intention to reengage it. Yeah. So, so people that want to judge, I mean, like you say, oh, family members, people want to judge for the lying and the, and I'm like, I want to be like, well, fuck those people, you know? But I get it. I know. Yeah. They're family.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, being lied to so many times and, you know, that kind of thing. Um, yeah, there, there's a fine line, I think, with families in terms of trying not to enable, but also trying to, try to have boundaries, trying to understand their disease, but also, you know, protecting themselves too. Yeah.

Right. Well, and that's a, I mean, that's not unreasonable.

Yeah.

You know, that's not, but they, but the fact is, you know, we do have to remember this too. Family members have a choice also. You know, they can set up their boundaries. They can walk away. They can, you know, to be able to say to somebody like, well, I suffered through your addiction for 20 years.

Your choice, right?

Yeah. That's on you.

Yeah.

That, that's not on me. I fully admit I was a piece of shit for 20 years.

Yeah.

But nobody held a gun to your head to stay.

Right.

You know, so yeah, I think everybody needs to take some accountability for their own shit. You know, is it fair that, that you had to deal with that and someone you loved was making you feel bad or what? No, wasn't fair. Life's not fucking fair.

Right.

Diabetics can't eat cookies all the time. That seems unfair.

All right, so one of the One of the top challenges that I see my clients and just people listening and dialing in for chemsex cravings. So you talk a lot about cravings in your book. And one of the examples you gave is the addict wanting to go to the store. You know, I'm just going to the store to pick something up, right? Yes. And I think it was a parent that were like, no, you're gonna use. No, no, I'm just, I promise I'm just going. And in their head, They do think I'm just driving to the store, but then they get in the car and they go get drugs.

Yes.

Right. So I see that a lot with, with my chemsex clients is they really believe like, I'm just opening Grindr to see who's on, or I'm just going to that party to whatever. And they feel really strong, but then as soon as they get there, or, or one example is reentry. Like when you go on the holiday, you go on vacation. As soon as you land back home, you're there. Like you go straight to the, you take the Uber to the dealer's house. You don't even go home.

Right. Right.

And could you help us explain like what we could do maybe and what's going on in the brain in those circumstances?

So, I mean, so cravings, uh, are not always going to just like announce themselves, right? Like, oh, I want to use drugs. I want to use this drug. Your brain is smarter than that. And so it starts to negotiate. It's what— it's like the bargaining, permission-giving cognition part of craving. So it's not— it's like, I'm not going to use. I'm just going to check Grindr to see who's on there or to see if so-and-so's boyfriend's on there.

Right.

Right. You know, but if that app is part of the conditioned network, then opening it is never going to be neutral. It's a cue, right? And so now you've activated hippocampal memories and those glutamine pathways and that anticipation of reward. And suddenly that craving that went from like a 2 is now a fucking 8 and you're off to the races. And so essentially people wind up feeling like they tricked themselves, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

And then they start beating themselves up because they're like, did I really know though? Like, was that really what I wanted to do? But the problem is, is The addicted brain does not have to convince you to use. It only has to convince you to take the next step toward it.

Oh.

And so when you have a whole bunch of these things stacked together in the same learning loop, it's much easier for it to just kind of flick one of those switches, and then all of the whole fucking network lights up.

Right, right. That's, yeah, that's helpful. That's helpful. So, I mean, you know, very practically what I tell a lot of clients is you're gonna have to block the phone so that you don't have access to these apps. You're gonna have to set your life up in a way that's, it has safeguards because like you said, the recognition, the pause, the pause is the hardest part, I think.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It takes practice too. Like anything else, the pause requires practice.

Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

No, go

ahead. No, please finish what you were gonna say.

I was just gonna say like the, so I mean, what we tell anybody to do anytime we're talking about these glutamine loops or whatever is interruption, right? So the pause may take some time to actually get, but it's gonna be, you can, you can actually like interrupt the loop at multiple places. It's not necessarily gonna stop it. But remember, the building of the road comes with the repetition of the same thing. So if we can interrupt that process often enough, it's not as efficiently happening. So if you stop and splash cold water on your face when you have the thought, if you jump up and down in place for 30 seconds, if you, you know, run around the block, take a cold plunge, like jump in the shower, if you do something just to— Right. Even if you pick right back up after that behavior, and continue the loop, you have put a chink in the armor. You have essentially interrupted that chain. And the more often you do that, the easier it's going to be to find a pause.

I love that. I love that. And I think, you know, if the listeners sometimes will be very black and white about, well, I paused it, but I still used, so it doesn't work. Right. But like you're saying, like, I think you used the, what was it in the, another analogy of the brain being like a forest and your first time through the path, it's like you're trying to tamp down everything and get through the woods or whatever. And then eventually you keep going through and it becomes a road, you know, which I've heard that before. But I just think, again, it's going to take repetition, guys. Yeah. Like keep interrupting the pattern any way possible. each time.

Right. Right. Well, and for the most part, the true addiction did not form with one use, right? You didn't use meth and have sex and then that was it. You, I mean, yeah, it was great, you know, but for most people, it's not like disrupting your life immediately. So yeah, the first time you walk through a forest, you just create a footpath, but every time you take that same path, it gets wider and wider. And that's the road. That's the road we're building from A to B.

Mm-hmm.

So we have to get off that road. But think about driving anywhere. Like, if you want to go to the fucking, I don't know, Starbucks, you're gonna take the same road you always take.

Right.

And even if you're like, today I'm taking a different— I'm gonna take that back road, or I'm gonna take the new road, sometimes you remember to do that. But like, when you're on autopilot, you're going on the main road, right? So it isn't until you repeatedly take the different route a back road, that, that starts to become more second nature to you. And it's the same way with everything. It's just the way our brains work. So the more you interrupt that process, the more you pause, the more you eliminate one of those elements that have been stacked in that glutamate dopamine fucking clusterfuck, you know, the more likely you are to be able to engage a different behavior. Mm-hmm. And then create a new path of like getting away from whatever discomfort you're feeling.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So a lot of, a lot of you listening, a lot of the clients you're trying to get from A to B in terms of uncomfortable emotion, like loneliness, rejection, you know, in the gay community, feeling isolated, all of those things. You want to get rid of that as fast as you can. And you go to, to meth. It sounds simple, but find a different B, right? Feel uncomfortable, find a different way to deal with that.

Right.

Yeah.

And, and it's never, it is never going to work as well. And like, let's just put that out there because I think that a lot of people get caught up in this idea that like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna be miserable the rest of my life because I'm never gonna have this level of, you know, euphoria. And the fact is you may not. But what I think that gets overlooked is that if you do the work to find like meaning and purpose and like depth in your life, you may actually find that more rewarding than those blasts of dopamine. And you may at some point, you know, you may look fondly back on the days of and go, oh yeah, that was such a good time. Sure.

But

like, yeah, okay. But ultimately your life is rich and meaningful now, and you don't have all of the downsides, you know? And I don't know where in the history of our lives and our society we came up with this idea that like, we are just entitled to always feel amazing and never have to feel like shit or be uncomfortable.

Right.

But that's what a lot of people, they're like, oh yeah, no. Well, I don't understand. Like, why do I have to feel uncomfortable or shitty ever? 'Cause you're a fucking human.

Right. Right. Right. And we're, we're trained to just instantly, if we feel bad, grab your phone or you feel bad, grab something. Right.

Or take a med.

Or take a med.

Right. Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah. Our whole society is trained that way. I mean, you can't, it does not help to have addiction in a society where we perpetuate the idea of pharmaceutical intervention for fucking everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is right. That is right. Thank you for that. Yeah. And the other part about chemsex is it also involves a lot of process addiction. You know, there's sex addiction can be in there. It's been— there's some studies going on that's looking at how it resembles gambling addiction because of the way we're scrolling on Grindr, you know, looking for the next 3 cherries on the grid. Is that a little different? Is that— do you approach those

So I don't, I only approach different addictions differently based on the individual. 'Cause it's like a lot of the reading the room, right? Like, what is it that you're gonna hear and understand what makes sense to you? But as far as I'm concerned, addiction is addiction. Like I can, we can eliminate drug, gambling, sex, pornography, you know, other people. Yeah. We can eliminate all of those and simply look at this thing dumps dopamine, creates glutamate loops, causes reward, helps someone feel relief. They start using it compulsively, brain rewires. Now that's the only solution. Now they can't do anything else. Now their executive function is not so great. They're not making good choices. Their impulse control is terrible because this thing has sort of overtaken. Doesn't matter what the thing is, right? It's all the same to the brain, which is why it's always so concerning to me that like people don't understand that because they are at much higher risk then of stopping one behavior and jumping immediately to another one thinking it's different because it looks different externally. Yeah. It's different, you know, but it's not neurologically. A lot of addiction really is addiction. And I know that in the, like the DSM doesn't have like porn addiction as like a thing, but it's the same fucking behavior, same loops, same brain chemistry. So we're going to look at it the same. We're going to treat it the same. We're going to identify it the same.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in my own experience, when I stopped using meth, I then, I still kept being sexually compulsive. You know, it still kept going, you know, so I did kind of trade one for the other too, in my own experience.

Right. Right. Yeah. I, well, yeah. And I mean, obviously pharmacologically drugs are different, right? Because I mean, I don't really approach, I don't really approach different addictions differently because the object of the addiction, I approach it differently because of the person in front of me and what function that is Yeah. Right? So yeah, I mean, ultimately though, like, yes, obviously like the way that we go about addressing like methamphetamine's going to have a huge dopamine component that perhaps another where alcohol's gonna have a big GABA component, you know? And so like we're gonna treat those things a little bit differently, but really I, we see it with gastric bypass all the time. People get gastric bypass and then they develop alcohol addiction or opiate addiction. And yeah, because nobody really bothered to evaluate the fact that you were actually using food as a coping mechanism and nobody addressed that. And so when we took away your coping skill and didn't provide you any new ones, it should be no fucking surprise that when alcohol hits your system fast, you were like, oh shit. Yeah. So there's, that's why I think, um, you know, people that get gastric bypass wind up having a higher incidence of addiction and like just all the different things will cross over for, for a lot of people.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes, I agree. Well, the last part of your book I think is really good in terms of you, you said so much effort is being exerted on teaching addicts how to stay clean and not die that life after not dying seems to get forgotten. Um, and I, and I, and I agree with that. It's like, what do we do after? Okay, I've quit. Mm-hmm.

Right.

But now the, now the hard part begins. Right. Right. Then how do I find— yeah.

Well, and that's what, I mean, that's what the second book is about.

Uh, okay.

The Addictaholic Reconstructed.

Reconstructed. Okay.

Yeah. So we deconstructed what your brain was doing in addiction. Okay. And now we're reconstructing our lives. after we've not died.

Nice. Yeah.

Nice.

So I will order that for sure.

I'll just send you one.

Oh, thank you. And you do list what you did in terms of your spiritual practices, or I don't know if you call them spiritual practices. And I did like also Nicole in her book says, if you have a problem with higher power, just replace it with purpose. Sure.

Yeah.

And what is your purpose?

Yeah. Well, yeah. Find meaning.

Find meaning. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so the, the last part really gets— is talking about get connected, get to know yourself, set goals, learn mindfulness. I mean, there's a lot of great advice in there in terms of what do I do now, right? And also kind of like, how do I approach life now that everything does seem dull. Like I look at a rainbow and I don't see anything, you know? How do we, how do we manage that?

Well, again, everybody's favorite answer, time, right? You give it some time.

Yeah.

But you can dopamine stack. So you, so the things that used to dump 12 or 20 balls into your field before you started using, Mm-hmm. Highly rewarding substances and behaviors, go back to doing those things. They're not going to be immediately enjoyable, but they will release the most amount of dopamine into your field so that you'll start feeling better faster. Because as those receptors are coming back, it'll— they'll start to recognize those behaviors. And so I would like, do multiple things that you like to do, like listen to music outside in the sunlight while you're exercising or some shit. You know, some people like those things. You know, spend extra time with your grandchildren or, you know, volunteer at a fucking animal shelter or whatever. Like, find things that you think would be enjoyable. And even if they're not, keep doing them anyway.

Mm-hmm.

And then, and then work on your purpose, work on finding your purpose or your meaning, or, you know, if you can, if you have any kind of like religion or spiritual attachment to anything, Find that. That works very quickly. Yeah. So just kind of like, but be patient. Wait. Be bored. Learn how to be bored. Find other people being bored and be bored together.

Yeah, I do hear that a lot. How do you learn to be bored? Well, what can I say to— how can I help people who say recovery is so boring?

Well, I, so I would, I'm always like, well, identify what that means. Like, where were you sitting? Like, are you just sitting at home on your couch and you're like, I'm bored? Well, go fucking do something then. Go to the zoo. Walk around the mall. Buy yourself an ice cream cone. Like, you know, see if your neighbor wants to play chess. Mm-hmm. Do something. And, you know, a big part of the recovery communities, right? So if you're doing any kind of like meetings, what, 12-step meetings or like SMART Recovery or Dharma Recovery, any of those, right? Typically, they have some sort of social component.

Right.

Where you'd be like, what are you guys doing? Like, can we have a picnic? Is there a meetup? Do we, you know, even just meeting online to like talk, give some people something to do, something to look forward to, seeing the same people every day. Once you start being recognized, you go into a Zoom room where they're having a meeting and you go often enough that people recognize you and they're like, hey, nice to see you again. Like, oh, that's a cool hat you're wearing, whatever. Like, humans are designed— that's your fucking likes on social, right?

Yeah.

Like, we love that. So real human interaction, That doesn't involve sex and drugs.

Right. Right. And would you, would you recommend a detox maybe from social media? Always.

Always.

From porn, from, yeah, all of that.

Definitely the trigger things, right? The things that like, so I recommend doing a deep dive on yourself and looking at what things are linked together. So is it one specific app or is it all dating apps? Is it, Um, you know, one specific meetup place? Is it one specific drug? Is it one, you know, and then start eliminating those things. Um, and then if you still find yourself being triggered by like other things, like fringe things, then you start eliminating those and you detox yourself from all those things as long as you can.

Mm-hmm.

Um, until you start feeling like really bored, really restless, and then make sure you're engaging with other people. And doing a recovery thing. You cannot just abstain from something that was making you feel great and just expect that you're gonna fucking be okay. It's not gonna happen. Yeah. You have to start building something new.

Right. Yeah. Yes. Thank you for that. And then I think we'll wrap it up, but I wanna— one more question. Something that you said about counting days is that we— that I think you were saying, I have to go back and look, but that we, our brain likes streaks.

Yeah.

So what, what is your, what is, can you expound on that just a little?

I mean, just think about like any like warehouse or workplace, right? Where they like have the thing on the wall and they're like, it's been 20-something days since our last accident.

Like, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Like that doesn't change that this guy today lost a finger, right? Just 'cause you had 380 days with no lost fingers doesn't give him his finger back. But it does kind of lend the idea that the culture here is safety and that we're trying to avoid losing limbs. So, the same concept with, like, not doing the thing. Some people, it really, it stresses them out too much and they can't, they can't count their days. And that's fine. There's no right or wrong. It's simply— Thank you. Yeah, find what works for your own brain because a lot of humans, we are competitive or we really do want, you know, like, to check boxes. And so like having so many days in a row, you're like, yeah, I'm piling these on, you know. But even that, like even if you do have a brain that likes, you know, checking boxes and piling up days, even if you have a slip or you relapse for a period of time and then you jump back on, like so you use for 2 weeks and you're like, oh my God, I fucked up, but you had 6 months. Well—

Right.

Then Just say that you have, and then you get, you stop and you're on the wagon again for a month. So now you have 7 months.

Yeah.

Doesn't matter that it took you 8 months to get 7 months. It's still 7 months.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. That's great.

Yeah. 'Cause you're still building, right? You're still building during that time. So yeah, you don't undo all the good things you've done because you jumped back on that road.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Um, well, I hope that you listening have learned something today. You might need to rewind and, and listen, but definitely buy Nicole, Dr. Nicole Labor's books. Um, I'm gonna get the other one and read it. Um, it just, I think it really does help you to understand, and I think your family, your friends can, can really understand what's going on if they hear In your brain. And you'll see the importance of why coaches and other— and your counselors, your therapists, your treatment centers will say, do something with the damn phone, right? Like lock it down. You have to be sometimes monitored, chaperoned. You have to have your location shared, whatever it takes. But it's not forever. It's not the rest of your life.

Oh no, it's just a survival mechanism.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's going to keep you safe and in survival right now isn't necessarily what you need to be doing a year from now, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

But like, get on the fucking lifeboat. You can worry about what to do on shore once you make it there, but let's just get in the fucking raft.

Yeah, that's right. Was there anything that I didn't ask or we brought up today that you wish we had of, or something that is on your mind that you'd like to mention here?

No, no, I'm, I'm good. I just wanna tell you that I like your audience is the best. They're the most, they're, you guys are the most supportive, the most, like the biggest hype men and women. Um, there are some women. Um, yeah, I just, I, I really appreciate it cuz I'm like, this is, this was a strange room for me to land in.

Well, I can tell you that you could easily become a gay icon.

Sure. Okay. Like, uh, mm-hmm. I'll take it.

You could. But I was— that's what I was looking at. I was like, that— there's some reason why she's so popular with— I mean, I could see this. You're like taking Dolly's place.

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's very kind. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you just, you have it all, you know, it's you, you, you're really helping, but you're also just the way that you approach it, the look, the attitude, you know, all of that, all of that. It's a good, great package. And I'm so, I'm so grateful. I, I about shit my pants when you replied back to me on Instagram, to be honest, but I'm so glad you did.

Yeah, no, me too. And again, this is not like— addiction's my area of expertise. This specific, like, category is not. And so I'm always appreciative of content and input and information from people like you who do know what you're talking about. And so I'm like, oh, okay, that's good to know because I'll encounter it, you know? So.

Yeah, of course. Well, you did a great job talking about it.

So thank you.

All right, guys, thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Um, you can— I'm going to put Dr., uh, Labor's information in the show notes. And also you can join in the conversation on Spotify and YouTube, and we will see you next week.

Bye.