EP 3:7 Healing for Sex Offenders with Scott

What I would say is in a clinical context, you can be open about those urges, you know, and say, I don't like this about myself and I want help to try to build structure and accountability around it. And that's, you know, that's fair game. Nobody's going to press any alarm buttons or, you know, you're there to be proactive and to do something that is a service for yourself and for others.

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to The Aftermath. Um, really important episode today. And if you are familiar with chemsex, then you're going to be familiar with what can happen in Zoom rooms or what can happen when a guy brings a special flash drive over or his laptop. And that is that we want to be as taboo as possible when we're under the influence of crystal or mephedrone or monkey dust, but mainly crystal meth. We want to chase that high, that dopamine high. And in that, in the throes of the night, we might look at, participate in some things that we're not proud of, which could be child pornography or it could be bestiality. It could be Non-consensual sex, homicide, whatever homicidal sex, there's a term for that probably, but many of you are out there kind of living in this shame and this spiral of how do I get past this, this moral injury that we have. And so today I'm really excited to bring a specialist on, uh, Scott Stellerick. Here you go. Um, Scott has a history of working with sex offenders. He has a history of working in, uh, substance abuse and sexual violence. He has a history of, he has a history of working in a lot of areas here that I think could help you, the listener, to feel seen, to feel heard, to start to walk out of this shame, to start to heal this moral injury. But also, if that's not you, I'm sure you know somebody in this position and we want you to be able to hold the type of space for them that they need. So Scott, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and welcome?

Yeah, Dallas, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. As you mentioned, my name's Scott Stolarik. I'm a Licensed master's level clinician working in Northern Illinois, a city called Gurnee near the Wisconsin border. I've been practicing for 33-ish years. I recently, as of maybe 2 and a half years ago, started my own practice called Mosaic Pathway Counseling. And I am an individual practitioner working with A variety of populations now, mostly trauma work. At this point in my career, I'm focused a lot on that. And I'm a trauma-informed clinician as well. So I try to take that perspective in working with people and just really placing emphasis on helping people find their voice.

Finding your voice.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, we're, we're gonna put Scott, the link to your counseling, Mosaic Pathway Counseling, in the show notes.

Sure. Great.

Uh, so I wanna kind of start with, if you could maybe tell us about your work with sex offenders.

Sure.

Yeah. In, in the prisons and kind of what was that like? You know what? Yeah. And I'll ask you some questions after that. Yeah.

I started, I started really focusing on trauma and addiction when I worked in corrections, which was part-time for about 8 years back in the early '90s. And while I was there, I took a position in an outpatient nonprofit agency also in this area. And that position was working with sex offenders, evaluating and treating them. And did that for a total of about 26 years and really got to learn a lot about engaging challenging populations, meaning people who did not want to be evaluated or treated. Understanding them, learning about their trauma, and bringing them to a position where they could get past shame and do meaningful work. So that was many years of my career spent, you know, working with that specific clinical population.

Well, when you say that they didn't want to be evaluated or treated, What, what was behind that?

Well, most, well, I should say all came to my attention via court orders. Um, you know, they were in trouble for something. Um, and a lot of the time were, uh, advised to not really speak openly about what occurred, uh, legal advice. Okay. Um, So we're of the mindset still that if I say I didn't do it, then nothing will happen to me. Um, so they didn't want to have any part of, you know, any labels like sex offender evaluation or sex offender therapy. Um, so the beginning oftentimes was very challenging for engagement purposes.

Yeah, so I've had, um, there's a little bit of echo on my end. I don't know. Hold on a second. Do you have an ability to turn on echo cancellation or no? Can't be changed. It says it can't be changed. Okay.

Okay.

I think it's all right. Okay.

Okay.

Um, okay. So I have had known several people, um, who have been convicted or, or I don't know, not convicted, arrested, I guess, is it for, uh, some type of offense of, uh, sex, uh, that would fall under sex offender. The ones that I deal with, it all has to do with child pornography. So it's either somebody put it on their computer during a, during an orgy group, you know, or it was passed on their phone. Right. And these are things that they, to their knowledge, didn't participate in. So there's that, that camp.

There's that camp.

Yep. And then there's some who did participate in it. It is something that is a fantasy of theirs.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I, I've heard it called intergenerational attraction lately. I don't know if that's the, the PC way to put it, or, you know, you're just, you're attracted to underage pornography.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so there's 2 camps there that I, that I know of, but the, the ones who really believe they didn't do it, like you said, there is this like, So if that's you listening, there, there's this, there's this need to not like, like not be treated or not go to the evaluation or not do the things that would say I'm guilty. Mm-hmm. Correct. Before you're even, before you're even convicted. So is it, how important is it and, and how do I reconcile that if I didn't do it? What can I, what kind of shift could I have in my mind to say, I, I, this is something I need to do anyway.

Yeah, I, I think for someone in a position like that, whether it's something that they were culpable for or whether or not, I think cooperation is always viewed to be favorable by a court system. What I would do is view the evaluation as an opportunity to let an evaluator hear your story, compare it against the discovery materials that they've been given. And if the evaluator feels that your position on this and what you're saying is feasible and could have indeed happened the way it happened, what I have done in the past is— asked for a polygraph test to be administered as part of the evaluation to include within the results, which, you know, an evaluation is a multi-pronged process. There are psychological testing, there's interviewing, at times there's polygraph testing.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, just self-report. And, you know, and, and I look at their response to, you know, taking, taking that measure and, and seeing what happens. Now, the first thing I hear when I bring up polygraph is that it's not admissible in court. And, um, and it's not necessarily for the purposes of the court, but for the evaluation. And in best practice evaluation and treatment with a sex offender population, it's a, it's a, uh, an accepted and recommended intervention to use. Um, while it may seem punitive, um, certainly not geared to be that way. Um, when I was doing that work, I would give my clients the questions in advance. It was not an I gotcha process, and I would want their collaboration and comfort with the questions. And then we'd proceed. Now, I must say, I, in my career of doing that, did not come across many situations where Someone was wrongly accused. I didn't get experience as much with that. There were a few, but they were the minority. And, you know, a polygraph test was instrumental in helping support their position. But to me, it was all about engagement and trying to engage somebody under very short-term pressure-packed conditions. Um, you're, you're given a, a referral for a sex offender evaluation and you have to do a, a lot of, COVID a lot of ground in a short period.

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes you're able to engage, sometimes you're not. Um, if you have to do the evaluation while the person is in jail, you've got limited opportunity to get there and see them. And sometimes you have to cover it all in one extended lengthy visit, which is not ideal. So that's how I present it and put it out there. It's an opportunity. It's not a time to really close the door on things because judges view that as defensive, non-compliant. And are quick to issue a punitive outcome.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Sure. So for you listening, I know it's, it probably sounds very tempting to not cooperate. And what would it be, what would it be like to say, I'm having a sex offender evaluation when you didn't actually look at that? material, right? Like what must that be like?

Absolutely mortifying, I'm sure, to say that, okay, for whatever reason I landed here in this situation by choices that were not my own. So I would want to look at that and say, listen, if this is what you're saying, I I understand what you're, what you're putting out there and I want the best for you, but I don't think that we're going to achieve that if we don't communicate. But if you're advised to not talk to me, I'll certainly respect that. But here's my hypothesis on how that could look to the court.

Yeah.

You know, and again, I, I never, Never suggest that somebody go against their legal counsel. Never have I done that or would do that. So if they were committed to not speak to me, I would honor that request and move forward.

So for you listening, if you're maybe, if you're in kind of the beginning stages here, is This idea of a polygraph test, I think that could be very affirming for you to, to even, even if it's not admissible in court, something that shows that, look, look, this is my story and look, it's true. Yeah. You know, for whatever.

Yeah, exactly. And, and, and I think, you know, the, the, the polygraph examiners that we used here in this area were trained to conduct sex offender polygraphs. They're very specific protocol.

Wow.

So if somebody is going to do that, I would want them to test with a person who's trained in, in that specific population. Um, and you know, I, I think it is an opportunity and I think people say, I'm not gonna take that thing. It's not 100% accurate. And that's true. It's not. Um, but neither is DNA testing. Mm-hmm. DNA testing is 99 point, mm-hmm, you know, whatever. It's not 100.

Mm-hmm.

Um, polygraph testing is usually in the mid, is high 90s of accuracy.

Mm-hmm.

Um, if done properly. And, um, but, but, you know, It's got a bad rap because people think it's kind of hocus-pocus and not really accurate. And that's certainly their prerogative to feel that way. And if they feel like they're being entrapped in any way, I would empower them to not proceed in a way that feeds that fear. But there is quite a balance between what is being recommended legally and what is being recommended clinically.

Yeah.

We, the way we developed the program that we did when I was working in it is for it to be very humanistic. I think the early work with sex offender population in general was to browbeat, to break down, to humiliate was kind of the methodology of treating individuals. And as you can imagine, that got nowhere quickly.

Yeah.

So there was an emphasis in this county on looking at statistics and saying, okay, Most of the people who are convicted of these crimes do not get sent away to prison. They get community-based sentences, most of them, not all. And so the question then becomes, what do we then do?

Mm-hmm.

Do we just sort of let them not learn anything and not become accountable or not have empathy and then try to find a job or wander the streets, you know, homeless and become more angry. We have to approach this treatment from a standpoint of we're genuinely here to help. We're genuinely here to help you and society as a whole get our heads around this issue.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's a hard sell. When someone would come into treatment, when they would actually start the treatment process post-evaluation, We worked with the state's attorney and the public defender's office to come up with an approved disclosure form. So meaning if you tell us in the course of treatment that there are more victims, this is how you disclose it to avoid further incrimination. But it's important that we know the degree to which your risk exists. So we can treat you as such and not set you up, you know, to get another case prosecuted against you.

I see.

So all facets of our system were on board with that so that it wasn't an I gotcha kind of scenario. And I'll be very frank in saying not a lot of clinicians wanted to do this work.

Yeah.

Not a lot of clinicians were attracted to this work, which is certainly their prerogative. But if there ever were a population who was marginalized in terms of their ability to get quality care, it's this group as a whole. And my vision for a long time, right, wrong, or indifferent, was, well, if I don't do it, who's going to? You know?

Yeah.

So, um, yeah. Yeah. And so very few of us did the work around here, but the few of us who did do it had a lot of it and tried to do it to the best of our ability.

Yeah. I, you know, the stigma. So in my line of work, you have a gay man who is already living under this Stigma and shame. And then most of us, the, the, the, there's a very high rate of HIV within the chemsex community. So there's that, there's that stigma and shame around that. There's stigma and shame around being an addict, you know, or having an addiction. But then of all the substances you can use, it seems like crystal meth is also like the most stigmatized. And, and least, and least talked about. Then you add onto that a sex offender conviction. I, I, I just want you to know if you're listening, like, that's, that's a lot to carry.

A lot.

A lot.

And to add onto that, even in the community of incarceration, You are at the bottom of the, of the rank of the ladder.

Ah, right.

You know, for either being, yeah, you know, openly gay or for having a, a sex charge.

Yeah.

You know, um, it's not in the, in the culture of incarceration. Um, those aren't cool crimes, you know?

Right.

You know, so your, so your safety could be at risk and, you know, the, the, the setting that you're in. Most of them take precaution in their classification to make sure those individuals' safety is not at risk.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you coach or, or, or help these guys while they're in prison to kind of navigate that? Like what to say, what not to say, kind of?

Well, when I was, when I was working in the incarceration setting, The bulk of my job there was to do mental status exams. So basically to just an intake on the inmate to make sure they're okay or their needs are being met, they're not suicidal. And then if they chose to have any follow-up work with a counselor, they could request that. But it was mostly just on depression, anxiety, adjustment, lack of contact with their support group. I think the advice about what to say or not say is kind of given to them during the classification process. If they've never been in jail before, they're advised probably not to talk about their case openly. Their lawyers will tell them, do not discuss why you're here and basically keep to yourself, you know, and follow the rules, keep your head down and, you know, stay out of everybody's way. So I think they have that advice by the time I got to them.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So What about, uh, post-prison? So when you're being released back into the, the, the, the wild, I guess you can say. Mm-hmm. So, so now you have this sex offender title, you know, certain places you can work, some places you can't work, or you can live and can't live. And sure. You know, I mean, in the US it's for life, I'm, I think, right?

Some, some have, uh, I don't know what it's currently. When I was doing the work, um, That was often based on the nature of the conviction. Certain convictions did not qualify for a 10-year registration. Certain ones qualified for life.

Okay.

I don't know where that is now in Illinois or in the nation, but I'm assuming it's similar that you can negotiate down and maybe not have that But it's, it's different in every case. It really was, or is.

Yeah. Do you have experience then working with those men after? Yeah.

Yeah. Most of, most of my experience was with the, the court cases that got a community-based sentence and did not go to prison.

Okay.

Or got work release where they lived in an incarcerated setting, but got out to work and go to therapy. I will say, um, and I'm speaking just for what I've seen in my specific area, those who would get out of prison and get ordered to do an evaluation was very, very difficult scenario. Very, very difficult because chances are they were coming off of a pretty long-term incarceration, did not get therapy of any kind, and their parole agent was throwing at them sort of a list of the to-dos and an evaluation was one of them. And this could be a person who spent 10 years in denial, just You know, never saying they did anything and really allowing that to crystallize. And by the time I would see them, they weren't having any of it. And interestingly enough, the parole versus probation dynamic in this neck of the woods was very different. And by that, I mean, probation was much, much more accountable. Much, much, much more, um, checking in and monitoring. Our, our probation department here had a surveillance unit that was developed exclusively for the sex offender unit. And these were individuals who could show up at your house at any time and ask to see your room or go through your dresser drawers or— Drug test you. Parole was, yeah, give me a call every month. Let me know you're still alive and get a job. And, you know, and so oftentimes people would just wait it out for their parole to term and nothing seemed to happen. So that was this, From, from my standpoint, getting a parole evaluation was especially difficult, you know, and oftentimes did not meet with success, unfortunately.

So for those who, okay, um, they, they're, they're, they've been released into the wild, they have this title now. Yes. Especially if I, if I am adamant that while high, I did not look at those things, or if I did, you know, it wasn't on my computer or whatever. Right. What are some, from a therapist's point of view, like, how, what are some ways that I can kind of talk to myself or reframe life? Because I'm, I'm guessing that. When you return, you're going to have friends, you're going to have family that totally disown you.

Yeah, potentially.

Sure. Sure. Um, you're going to, to me, I would think you're walking around like a, like a, a scarlet letter is on you, even though people don't know.

Yeah.

But what would you say to, to somebody who came to you and said like, How do I deal with this? How do I process this?

If it were a situation where there was, you know, substance abuse, for example, I would look at it from, I would look for my most friendly and amenable door to walk through. And if it were substance abuse, let's say compared to sexual offending, Maybe substance abuse is a smaller scarlet letter. And in some cases, you know, is, is considered to be more like if, if you're in recovery, more of a noble thing.

Yeah.

Versus if you're in recovery for sex offending, people don't really care. Um, so I would look at that door of substance abuse and say, let, let's just, let's talk about that for a minute. And let's just talk about things that you feel in that world that you're culpable for.

Hmm.

You know, like, hey, when did you start using, or do you wish you could have stopped but didn't? What are some of the things not related to sex that you did when you were under the influence that you wish you didn't? Let's just talk about being culpable and accountable, but let's talk about substance abuse. Let's not talk about the sex piece. And I think what you're doing there is you're cultivating a culture of accountability. People want to be accountable and be better. So figuring out what that looks like and feels like, maybe from a less threatening perspective, is probably safer. And when you do that, you, if the person is culpable of the other thing, then they're more likely to go into that area. And if they're not, they won't, you know? Um, so, so I would, I would look at it through, through that method of let me just find a way to engage this person so I can help.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would think, I would think that it would require, you know, I'm putting my, I'm trying to put myself in the place of somebody who You know, yes, I was using meth and all that kind of stuff, but I got caught with it. So I'm guessing that now that this, this is given to me, I'm on probation, I'm doing, you know, I'm jumping through all the hoops. Maybe I'm being, you know, maybe I have being surveilled. It's got to be, there's got to be some radical acceptance there. Is it, wouldn't there be to say, this is, this is my plight. This is where I am.

Sure, sure. I mean, in a case where there was substance like crystal meth or any other substance involved, and it was apparent that the person was involved in using substance, but they say the sex thing I didn't do, there does, I think, have to be some radical acceptance of how did my decisions to do this one thing lead to this other thing that I'm being accused of that I didn't do? And kind of look at the connection there and see if you can make headway in approaching some sort of peripheral accountability.

Yeah.

I was with a guy and we were using together, and I was there when he assaulted this person, and I didn't know what was going on, but I was implicated in it. I shouldn't have been around this guy. I shouldn't have been there. And now I have to work on the results of that and how I can mitigate it the best way that I can. You know, I've had clients who legitimately had their first mental health episode in the form of a psychosis. Where they were legitimately outta touch with reality.

Mm-hmm.

And did a lot of nutty things and tried to coerce a teenage kid into a car with them and, you know, and then drove away and, and, and caught a case that was very, very serious, but it was due to a mental health psychosis. There was no prior indications of this behavior, nothing on the record. And that's a really gnarly one because you really have to sort through that carefully. But I would never ask anyone to admit to something that they didn't do. You know, so if you look at it from like a concentric circle model, start from the outside and with the center being total accountability, how can we kind of move our way in closer with smaller circles? And you can stop wherever you want in that model. You know, as a practitioner, clinical practitioner, the pressure is always on from—

Mm-hmm.

The outside, meaning probation or the courts saying, hey, did this guy cough it up yet? Did this guy admit it yet? Because if he didn't admit it, I'm taking him back to court. And it's really a delicate balance, you know, trying to account, to help them and help them be accountable, but not like disengage them.

I like this. Um, I like this a lot, and I hope that it helps you listening is, okay, maybe you didn't pass on that video. You know, maybe you didn't have it on your laptop. Maybe you didn't, whatever. Um, but this is where you are. You, you did make a decision. That puts you in that situation. You decided to get high on crystal meth. You decided to look away and let your devices be used. That's a decision you made. Like you're saying, like looking at the circles is, let me just start with trying to hold myself accountable for a decision I made without attaching it to What I didn't do.

Correct. Yep.

Yep.

And, and I think when working with populations that are court-ordered to therapy, I think the process progresses well when you find accountability. You know, when accountability starts to happen, and I'm, and this is the case certainly in substance abuse treatment. When you start to take ownership for your role in stuff, you go farther. You go farther. And whatever that means for any individual person, it's a progress that you can hang your hat on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So there is this this difficulty to reconcile too of, okay, that I was high on meth. How accountable am I to that? And then you brought in this idea of psychosis.

Yeah.

Which meth-induced psychosis is so common too, especially the, the, it's more common now than ever due to the new, the super meth shit that's out there.

Yeah.

How do I take accountability for what I did, but also understand that it was chemically induced so that I'm not just saying that was the drug, not me? Like there's gotta be a balance in there somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah.

And maybe it's this concentric circle you're talking about. Yeah.

I, you know, that's where history comes in, like doing a really thorough history with someone and assuming that they're willing to be compliant with that. So for example, I would sit down with a person who's got caught up in using crystal meth, and I would want to get their substance abuse history in detail. Like, how did this start? What did you start with? How did you work your way to this? And I would want to know about their observance of their behavior when they're under the influence. Like, oh, when I drank, I always remembered everything I did when I was drunk. That was never a problem. But when I started to get high, then I noticed it would get murky. Or when I snorted coke, it would, you know, I would get a little off the handle and have a hard time remembering. But man, when I would use crystal meth, I would wake up somewhere and have no idea how I got there and no idea. So, so I would want to develop an understanding of their knowledge that, okay, you knew when you used this stuff, you had no memory of what you did. So it's hard to say theoretically that if you don't remember what you did, you can't say you didn't. You know, that would be my sort of clinical confusion question. It would be more like, you're, you're saying you didn't do this and I want to respect that, but you're also telling me that when you're using crystal meth, you have no memory of your behavior, but you're also saying the selective memory of things you don't want to get blamed for, you remember.

Mm-hmm.

And, and not saying that provocatively, just saying it in a way of, I'm confused and you, You're the one who can help me with this. Does that, does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so I would, I would do a thorough history, really get to know the person and get to know their response to the substances that they use and the behavior that they engaged in while under the influence of substances.

Yeah.

Because if, if someone starts to understand that, They can really gain accountability. Like, oh, you know, when I was drunk, I would always fight. Well, would you ever fight when you were sober? No, no, no. I didn't have the courage to do it. But when I started drinking, I would pick a fight with anybody I saw.

Okay.

Um, how do you feel about that? Do you, do you, do you think it was a good decision to do? Oh, no, no. I, I, I got so many battery convictions for that. I was foolish to keep doing it. So good. Okay. We got some accountability going here, you know? But I think that with anybody who's denying anything, what you want to do is say, let's not start with what you didn't do. Okay? That's sort of the—

Yeah.

That's sort of the low-hanging fruit that everybody wants to kind of talk about. And I don't want to talk about that right now. What I want to talk about is backing this up, getting to know you and the path to this destination and find out what you feel you are accountable for. And that's oftentimes harder. but yet more beneficial for someone to talk about. If you think about it, you're accused of a crime that you feel you didn't commit. The last thing you want to do is to talk about how you've been wrong in various situations.

Yeah.

That seems counterintuitive to what, but that's where the clash between the legal and the clinical has always been so very hard.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's been a very hard marriage.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I don't, I'm sorry. I don't know if that answered the question, but, uh, no, I, I think it does.

I think, you know, I don't think there is any easy answers here. Um, I would think though that Finding, getting closer to, so if you're listening, getting closer to that center of total accountability is going to help you get to that place of acceptance.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Like, this is where I am. I'm not going to fight it anymore. And also taking account, taking accountability for it. Doesn't— there's, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a couple things. It doesn't let you off the hook, but it also gives you some relief somehow and lets you move on. Because I think the point here is, how do I move forward?

Exactly. I mean, a person sitting down with their attorney is a very different situation than that same person sitting down with their therapist.

Yeah.

Yeah. The, the, the, each person's goal for that individual is very different. A lawyer might say, hey, listen, I, I, I believe you, you didn't do it, but if you take it to trial, they're going to hang you. You're going to go away for the rest of your life. Let, I've got this plea on the table. What do you think? Let's do this. I think it's a good idea. That's talking about what you're accused of exclusively. When you're talking to a clinician, I think the more productive path is talking about how you got here.

Yeah.

And that's part of a social history component to an evaluation. Which again is asked for under very tight time constraints. So you're trying to get to know somebody up, down, top, and bottom in a very short time and give a clinical hypothesis. And that person's really hesitant on talking to you because the vibe they're getting to this point is, I don't know who to tell what. You know, I'm, they're, they're throwing all these different people at me and I don't know who's who and I don't know what's what. And so, so that's why, uh, an evaluator always identifies their role very clearly and what it's here to do, you know? Um, so it's, it's, it, it's complex. It really is.

It is complex. It's very complex. So let's switch gears a little bit if we can. And let's address, let's address the men out here who in their aroused state of, of being in the crystal meth, um, party, orgy, whatever, they actually did like watching these things.

Mm-hmm.

These videos, the, um, a child, let's just say, I mean, it's child, child pornography type videos. Um, and then it even gets darker, deeper than that, you know, get into non-consensual and all that kind of thing. While I was, no, I'm not saying me, but, you know, while I was high on meth, I watched that. Okay. I didn't get caught with it. I didn't, you know, and now I'm in my, I'm in my recovery knowing that I watched those things and I liked it.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. In my sober state, either I do or I don't. You know, I mean, I've talked to a lot of men and they say, in my sober state, I don't want to watch those things. It's hard to get them to understand that I'm not going to judge them either way. You know, even if you're, even if you still have a fantasy, there's fantasy and there's desire, right? Like you might fantasize about those things because it's part of your arousal template. That doesn't mean you're going to act on it. Correct. But, but most will say, I don't like that. You know, that's not what I'm into sober. So what would you say, how, how those men sitting out there who haven't told a soul because they're, they're scared to admit it, what would you say to them in terms of processing this to alleviate the shame they're under right now?

Well, I would, I would put it under a broad category of All people, no matter who you are, have urges to do things they should not. And in a sober state, in a rational state, they recognize where the lines are and they feel with every ounce of their being like they want to cross that line, but they recognize they cannot and will not. And again, some people Don't, but I think I would put it in a category of if you're human, you've had urges to do things you shouldn't.

Hmm.

And so regardless of what that shouldn't is, I think you're walking next to somebody on the street who also had an urge of something they shouldn't do now. What is more socially acceptable to admit versus what is more socially acceptable to not admit? Okay, that falls into another bucket. But what I would say is in a clinical context, you can be open about those urges, you know, um, and, and say, I don't like this about myself and I want help to try to Build structure and accountability around it. And that's fair game. Nobody's going to press any alarm buttons or you're there to be proactive and to do something that is a service for yourself and for others. I think it's akin to someone who's not out, Yeah. And they live a life that is sort of a masquerade of who they truly are. How does that typically end up? It certainly doesn't end up in your personal happiness and gratification. It may end up with a couple kids and a divorce later, And your kid's going, I never knew this about you, Dad. Can you explain? You know, so, or mom or whomever. And so what urges are considered to be acceptable legally, right? What urges are just considered to be in certain circles not socially acceptable? You know, if somebody grew up in a very oppressive home and they're, they have a same, same-sex attraction, but know that nobody in their family would sign off on that and approve of it, that might be an urge that's considered not socially acceptable. Okay. That's navigated differently in therapy. than something that's considered legally unacceptable.

I see.

Does that make sense? Like, yeah, you know, um, I clinically, I would want to work with a person in the situation of, of, of being closeted to move towards how they can actualize who they really are and not live a life that's a masquerade or—

Yeah. Yeah.

A facade to people. If I were working with somebody that was attracted to prepubescent children, I would say, okay, clearly this is not something that you can do and have it be accepted legally in any capacity. So let's talk about how you cannot do it. Okay. You know, and then coexist with the urges that you have.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I think that's where we get stuck is you have the urge or you had the urge, you liked it, whatever. And you can't seem to get past that because you wanna label it. You wanna ask, what does that mean about me? You know, am I a pedophile? You know, am I a bad person? Am I sick? You know, instead of like you're saying is, okay, You have the urges, but that doesn't mean that you're going to act out on them. Like legally, it's a bad idea. Socially is also a bad idea. So let's talk about how, okay, that part is there. Let's not negotiate or fight with that part. If you want to even, you could probably even bring parts work into this. Sure.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Right?

Yes.

That part of me is there. It's not wrong. It's not right. It's not bad. It's not good. It's just there. So let's just say that. And then talk about structures in your state, the structures around not doing it, not following through.

Exactly. I think a huge battle is stop fighting the acceptance that this is a piece. It is a piece that is there. And the more we pretend it isn't, the more we're not paying attention to it. And the more, if you don't pay attention to it, you're going to neglect it. If you neglect it, it is going to harm you. I'm not saying this is something you talk about at cocktail parties. That's not the— it's something that you come to terms with for yourself and work parameters around it. To understand that you have to live life in a way that you can't do it. If somebody said to you, hey, listen, if you drink another cup of coffee, you're going to die. If a doctor says to you, listen, man, the next cup of coffee you have is going to stop your heart, you'd probably be pretty serious about not drinking coffee. And it would be hard. You'd have urges and cravings for it.

Right.

Heaven forbid anybody ever said that to me. My God.

I would just do it.

I have a coffee IV. But you almost have to look at it in that capacity. And this is a serious thing and you don't have to divulge it to anybody outside the walls of your therapy. But You do have to come to terms with it and build safeguards around it.

Interesting. This is totally sidebar, but I did an interview one time. It didn't get, it didn't make the podcast because of technical difficulties, but it was a guy who, who was, who is not gay anymore, quote unquote, like he's, he's in, he's in the church. So he's like following the same things. Like there's a part of me that wants men. But I don't have to act on that part. So I'm going to, you know, structure around how not to do it. So it's interesting that that's kind of the, almost the same, the same technique.

Well, it, it is, you know, except I think in a situation where, you know, somebody, let's say in the days of conversion therapy, you know, when that was When that was considered acceptable. There's a recognition that our society has evolved, even though it doesn't really seem like it, that you can be who you are and still be safe. And yes, there will be people who are judgmental and critical, but that pertains to people of certain skin colors too, and they can't change the color of their skin. So you have to understand that you are you, be proud of who you are. Don't feel like you need to hide who you are. If you feel like you need to select places to live or environments to be in, in which who you are is more supported, then by all means do that. But There, there are, there are, there, there is acceptance for who you are. And you can't say that to a person who is attracted to, to prepubescent children. You, you can't.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just to kind of reiterate what we've said here for you listening is you have a part Let's say there is a part of you who does either you, you have a desire for prepubescent or you had, let's say, obviously there's a part of you that you did. Maybe it was on meth, maybe it was chemically induced, whatever. There was a part of you. So instead of judging that part, like you're saying, ignoring that part, shoving it in the box, like making it a demon and all that kind of stuff, the more you do that, you're actually turning on yourself. And, and you're actually treating that part as you don't wanna be treated by the outside world, right? Like you wanna treat that part like you wanna be treated, which is accepted.

Funny, funny how that works. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, and it's, I, it's, it feels counterintuitive, I'm sure, to say, I'm going to accept the part that likes to look at little boys. Well, and that's not what this is. Right. Go ahead. Yeah.

And there's a difference. I immediately bring up the opportunity to say there's a difference between acceptance and approval.

Yeah.

You're not, you're not approving of that part of you. You accept its existence.

Right.

Okay.

Right.

And you have, you have every right to not approve of it. There are parts to all people we don't approve of and wish we didn't have.

Yep. Exactly.

Exactly that. Then that would be your particular acceptance approval paradigm. So, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Acceptance and approval. Just because you accept it doesn't mean you approve of it.

Correct. And they're often confused as the same.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is big work, guys. This is big, big work for you. Um, I, I would suggest a therapist like Scott here. Yeah.

Yep.

Hold on a second. My Siri just went off. I don't know if you heard that or not. Um, oh, good. Um, but so I, this is, this is big work. That, so my job as a coach is to get you away from the substance long enough, get your head clear, get you some momentum going, and then start working with somebody like you, Scott, to pick apart, process.

Yes.

Dive into this. Um, and it feels like this work in particular is very meticulous. It needs to, you need to use a lot of caution and you really need to work with somebody who's certified in this field.

Yeah, definitely.

So that you don't damage yourself.

As somebody with experience, um, you know, you don't want to go into therapy and have a therapist look at you and go, I have no idea what to do. Sorry. You know, you want to, you want to seek somebody out, even if it means waiting. to do it. Somebody who has experience, who can do, you know, do, do, do the work with you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you accept clients all anywhere or is it just—

I, I can, I can see, uh, people who live in Illinois or Wisconsin.

Okay.

That's where I hold licenses. I, you know, I can't, uh, for example, telehealth. Uh, I couldn't see a client who didn't live in one of those 2 states. Yeah.

Okay. Would you be able to make referrals?

I would, I would do my best. You're sure. If somebody reached out to me and said, here, here's my situation, I'd certainly help them research for sure.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Scott, is there something that I missed today? Is there something that you wish that we would've covered or talked about?

No, I, I think it was very comprehensive. I just think, you know, people shouldn't judge themselves by their, you know, by their worst moment. You know, there's a lot of pieces.

Yeah.

You know, people are, people are mosaics, you know, like my name of my business, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

So recognize the larger picture.

Yeah. And, and guys, if you're listening, you, you have to remember too, You're in company here. We all did things, said things, participated in things, fantasized about things while under the influence of crystal meth that we wish we hadn't have. I engaged in— I remember certain times I engaged in conversations about my son in a certain context where I would, you know, because it was such a fantasy for all the other guys when they found out I had a a son, you know, this, this whole idea of incest or whatever. And so there were times when I let my boundaries go and I engaged in the conversation. That took so long to process for me.

For sure.

Um, you know, cause then in my sober state, I've got to, I'm with my son. I think about, oh my God, you know, so I just, I'm saying I'm being vulnerable here. So if you're listening to know, You are seen, you are heard. You are not, it's not just you.

You, right. Correct.

This is the nature of it and we all did it.

Yeah. They're not people, they're not alone. Not alone.

Right. And as you said, humans want, have the urge to do things that they shouldn't do, that they shouldn't do or didn't want to do.

Every day.

Right.

Every day.

Yeah. But the fact that you see that and you feel healthy guilt about it shows that it's against your morals. And that's, and anchor into that.

Well said. Well said.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott, thank you so much.

Dallas, it's a pleasure, sir. I really appreciate you having me on.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's not easy to find someone to talk about this subject without judgment. And, you know, it's like, so.

Anytime, anytime you want me back, I'm happy to do it.

Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right guys, hope you enjoyed this. If you have, wanna join in the discussion, just comment on YouTube or comment on Spotify. And don't forget, there is a supplemental study guide that comes out with every episode and the link will be in the show notes. All right, see you next week.