EP1: 48: The Effect of Internalized Homophobia on Chemsex with Paulo

Hey y'all, this week we are talking internalized homophobia with a new buddy of mine, Paulo, with No Matter What Recovery. It's another queer-affirming treatment center specializing in chemsex recovery out in LA. If you remember Mel, I interviewed them on the episode entitled Healing the Heartbreak of Chemsex Addiction. I insist that you watch that, listen to that episode. It is one of my favorites, and they are one of my favorite people in the world. They are working with Paulo at No Matter What, so that should give you an idea of the quality of care and expertise this institution is offering. And once you hear Paulo's story, you'll be even more sold. I am so fucking thrilled to see treatment centers who understand the nuances of chemsex addiction among our gay male population. It gives me peace and it gives me hope for the future. I want you to really pay close attention to how Paulo has processed and overcome his own internalized homophobia, because what I'm seeing in my work is that almost every man who gets trapped in crystal meth use keeps going back to it for the freedom from the shame of being gay. Meth gives them the ability to feel no anxiety around sex and explore it in ways they only fantasize about in a sober state. This instant melting away of internalized shame gets really addictive. So I want to invite you to use this episode as a marker of hope that you can overcome this. You can love sex without Tina. You can heal. It takes work, time, patience, and consistency. But the first step is your language. Please refrain from saying, I'll never enjoy sober sex, or, I can't fully enjoy sex without meth. This is defeatist and disempowering. Then the next step is to work on becoming your best and highest version every single day. As Paulo says here, once he became a more decent person, more decent people were attracted to him. People who provided a space of unconditional acceptance whether or not he was Mask. All right, enjoy the episode.

I went home and I could not fall asleep because I was thinking about it. Because when she— when they said it, I was like, whoa. And Mel had brought up looking at it as homonegativity instead of homophobia, because it basically is talking about a narrative that you're telling yourself.

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermeth. Trigger warning: this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, Please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey, and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Dallas Bragg here, and I'm so glad to have you back. And I just wanted to say again how honored I am to have you listening, how honored I am to be a part of this podcast, who's now— it's really become a ministry for me as I select people to be on the podcast and select subjects. I'm more specific about it, more intentional. It's not just sharing stories now, it's reaching into your needs as a recovering person who used crystal meth. I am— I was listening to some of my podcasts and I realized how much I say meth addict. And I was like, what? It's weird how you, when you hear yourself back, played back, you realize what you say more often. And so I stopped myself from saying, you know, constantly. So I'm going to stop myself from saying meth addict. A person who uses crystal meth or has crystal meth use disorder, someone in recovery from it, You request specific topics, and I want to be responsive to that. And so, in that vein, I want to welcome our guest today, Paulo Ara Ara shit Aranaga, right? Aranaga, Aranaga, Aranaga. Yeah, I'm just a country hick. Okay, Aranaga Grayson. I'm going to introduce Paulo in just a minute, but we're talking about. About internalized homophobia today. And I will be honest with you, up until about, um, 3 years ago, I didn't know what that was. Um, and I'm 48 years old. But I went, I got a therapist, and for a brief— well, not this one was a brief time because of other reasons— but she said, have you heard of internalized homophobia? And I said, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about. But I— but when she described it, I was like, yep, that's me in a nutshell. But before we get started, I want to remind you, please rate and review the podcast. If you want to get involved, we do have a free Facebook page that you can join. We have discussions that align with the podcast and then other discussions. We also support each other on our journeys. And there will be a supplemental study guide That goes along with the episode. The link to it will be in the show notes. So let's introduce Paulo. He is the co-founder and chief executive officer of No Matter What Recovery, No Matter What Recovery Detox, and No Matter What Recovery Residences in Los Angeles, California. He co-owns these programs with his husband Anthony, where his passion and purpose have led them to develop these programs Focusing on LGBTQ+ affirming care and sexualized drug use, otherwise known as chemsex. Paulo also works as an interventionalist and companion with adults and adolescents. He has years of experience managing operations, client care, and crisis intervention with people in recovery, specializing in individualized care and family systems. Furthering his career, Paulo is currently working on his bachelor's in behavioral health with an emphasis on trauma at Grand Canyon University. Paulo is part of the recovery community in Crystal Meth Anonymous and serves as the executive secretary on the board of the Los Angeles Convention Committee. Woohoo! Paulo and his husband are also proud sponsors of the Trudging Buddies, a sober cycling team that rides in the AIDS LifeCycle, a 545-mile bike ride.

Wow.

Which benefits the Los Angeles LGBTQ+ Center and San Francisco AIDS Foundation and the Best in Drag Show, which supports AIDS Project Los Angeles and the Alliance for Housing and Healing. Oh wow, that's a lot, Paulo. Welcome, welcome to The Aftermath.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I've been watching and listening and, and tuning in to all of your content, and I think that the work that you're doing is just absolutely amazing and And being on the front lines working with people who suffer with addiction to crystal meth or substance use disorder, to any of the other, you know, primary substances that affect the LGBT community, I think it's just really great work. And there's not enough of us that are out there doing, doing, you know, God's work.

That's right. Yeah, thank you. That means a lot coming from you because of what you're doing out there. And, you know, the reason— one of the major reasons I started the recovery coaching and this podcast is when I went through treatment, you know, I went through drug treatment court and I went through substance use treatment and they had no idea how to serve and meet the needs of a gay man who had experience with crystal meth. And they just, they just missed the mark, you know, and I missed out on quite a bit that I just had to really dig in myself and figure out and equate to and try to educate the counselors there, um, who really wasn't, wasn't having it, but they, but I had to educate them anyway.

Yeah, it's one of the things that we, and then the, in the community here that work in behavioral health that we see a lot of, and a lot of places are saying, oh, we're LGBT friendly. And so I started asking, like, what does that mean? Because for me, there's a difference between friendly and affirming. And normally what that means is that LGBT-friendly programs have like a gay person running a group or, you know, just very limited kind of resources. And what I look at as affirming treatment is how do you recognize people's pronouns? How do you do observed urine analysis screening? How do you do housing? Is it gender-specific or is it how someone Identifies instead of how they present? How do you navigate conversations with clients who are newly diagnosed with any sort of STDs or HIV? Or, you know, how do you navigate conversations with families who are deadnaming their, their loved ones and don't really understand the culture around identifying as queer? And so there's a lot more that goes into LGBT-centered treatment than just, you know, sitting in there. in a group and kind of just doing a group on whatever comes up. And it really is— there really are a few facilities in the country or specialists that specialize in the queer population and LGBTQ-affirming care. And it's really important for us to have a space because it's a very special—

Mm-hmm.

niche kind of person that, you know, is dealing with this. And when I got sober, I got sober in a program that was full of a bunch of bros, and there was a lot of toxic masculinity. And I had to like lower my voice and present differently because I was in group with people that looked like the people that used to bully me in school. And so hmm, I didn't feel comfortable talking about being HIV positive for 19 years and navigating some of the difficulties and challenges that I faced as a crystal meth addict and hooking up in bathhouses or, you know, which is just a huge part of my addiction. I didn't feel comfortable talking about it therapeutically because I was afraid of opening up in a group of people that I wasn't comfortable with, you know?

Yeah.

So affirming spaces are so important and especially with the new administration and all of the changes that are happening, you know, It really does count to be able to say, we see you and we hear you and we actually are educated on treating you. And working very closely with this demographic has become the passion of my life.

Wow. Wow. I love that. Isn't it nice to know what your passion and purpose is?

I didn't think I would make it to 18 years old. So for me to be sitting here on this podcast with you is not only a miracle, but just to be able to do something that makes me happy in life, I feel like I have struck gold. Hmm.

Do you want to talk about that, any— your story?

Yeah, of course. Um, you know, I, uh, I grew up in a small city where— I'm from the South as well. I grew up in a city called Slidell, Louisiana.

Mm-hmm.

Which is about 20 minutes north of New Orleans. And I grew up in a conservative Republican family where I was— I never felt able to be able to be myself. And not because I didn't have great parents. My parents did everything that they could for me. They just didn't understand me. And to be honest, I didn't understand myself. But I knew at 7 years old that the way that I acted and presented in the world mattered. And the way that I wanted to act and present, I couldn't because I would get bullied bullied for being called sissy or feminine or, um, you know, all of those things. And so I didn't feel safe at school. I, you know, I came home to an alcoholic household where I didn't feel safe at home. And so for a large part of my childhood, I didn't feel like I had a place at all where I could take a deep breath. And, um, I started going out to New Orleans and getting in bars when I was 15 years old and I'll never forget my first time stepping into this club on Bourbon Street. And Deborah Cox, Nobody Was Supposed to Be Here, was playing. I'll never forget it. I, I walked in and I just took a deep breath and I was like, finally, I can be who I am. I can be myself. And I never— I will never forget the way the bar smelled.

Mm-hmm.

I'll never forget the— just that environment, because it was the first time in my life at 16 years old where I felt safe. Wow. And this was before I even started using substances. This was just like being able to be in a, in an environment where I could wear a crop top with a unicorn on it and have glitter on my face and like not feel unsafe. Um, and for me, as like a little young gay boy, um, navigating life and trying to figure out how to come out, trying to figure out how to become a chameleon, right? Like, I, I developed that skill at a very young age. And, and, you know, the topic that we're going to talk about is internalized homophobia. But from a very young age, I would like deepen my voice and present differently to different groups of people. And it was just this master manipulation. And for me, it was just survival mode of how to exist.

It wasn't—

I didn't think I was manipulating people. I just thought that I was Trying to find my place in life. And, um, and so, um, that, that feeling safe became the first thing that I kind of became addicted to because every night I started sneaking out of my parents' house and going to New Orleans. And finally my parents caught me sneaking out and I had glitter on my face and I was wearing a unicorn crop top t-shirt. And my parents were like, are you gay? And I said, yeah. And, um, uh, my dad threw a boiling pot of whatever was on the stove at me and said, never come home.

Wow.

In the state of Louisiana, you can get emancipated from the family. So I, I was legally emancipated at 16 years old and became a legal adult. And, um, I moved to New Orleans and, you know, was a street kid. I had no money. The only thing that I figured out how to do was survival sex work at 16 years old. And And I started picking up a drug habit. And then very shortly thereafter, I started distributing crystal meth. And then my life became circuit parties. And at a very young age, like, you know, I mean, I didn't— I, up until 9th grade, I had a 9th grade education until 4 and a half years ago.

Wow.

I dropped out of high school in 9th grade because I, you know, didn't have a way to get to school. My parents kicked me out. And so I started using and, and by 19, I, you know, had developed HIV and Hurricane Katrina happened and I moved to Chicago after the hurricane and got pneumonia and got really, really, really, really sick.

Mm-hmm.

I had 14 T cells. My viral load was over a million. I had like 5 teeth in my mouth and—

Oh my God.

I hadn't talked to my parents in 2 years. And the doctors looked at me and said, Paulo, tonight, tonight, you can live or you can die. You need to make your choice. And I walked into the rooms of Crystal Meth Anonymous at— it was either 18 or 19 years old. And CMA had just started in Chicago. This was in 2006. And There were like five men in the room who took me in and really taught me how to like pay my bills and how to have integrity and how to like pay for rent. Like I had no life skills. Like I had zero life skills because I was just a street kid. You know, I stopped maturing at the age of sixteen and like went into this different place in my life. And and you know, I learned in sobriety how to navigate relationships, how to Um, you know, have integrity, um, how to show up for other people and, and really kind of look at like what my part was in a lot of things and started to build my relationship back with my family and try to, you know, uh, you know, just build, build a beautiful sober life. And I was sober for 8 years, um, got in an abusive relationship. And, and I was sober with someone else who was also sober. And it was a very toxic relationship where he started hitting me and then we started beating the shit out of each other and he ended up committing suicide.

Wow.

And I relapsed after 8 years sober and decided I was going to go do one dose of G. And that one dose of G turned into 3 years of misery for me. And My addiction picked up right where it left off. I started selling drugs again, and a week after I relapsed, after having 8 years sober, I got arrested, uh, with, uh, a significant amount of crystal meth in Vestavia Hills, Alabama, right outside of Birmingham, and went to jail. And a week after— you know, they say that this is like a progressive disease and it picks up right where you left off.

Yep.

I would hear this stuff and meetings. And, you know, I'd be like, I don't know, you know, I mean, look, I had 8 years between myself and substances.

Yeah.

For me, it was like that. It was like, I went from like, you know, a big, beautiful career to relapsing to like in jail. And I was out for 3 long years and was— I started working for the cartel. And I don't even speak Spanish. So I would be putting myself in situations where like, I would have a gun to my head and like trying to use Google Translate to communicate with these people. And wow, it was, it was crazy. And, um, and so anyway, I ended up getting sober after that. I, I started using intravenously, um, and, uh, I was using intravenously in my neck, and, uh, I got a staph infection in my neck.

Ah.

And, uh, and so again, Apollo, they're like, you can live or you can die. You need to get sober and you need to make your choice. And For me, I decided to get sober and my sobriety date's October 7th, 2015. So I just celebrated 9 years a few months ago.

Nice.

My life today is not anything like it was before. You know, I work in substance abuse and mental health. My husband and I are in the final stages of adoption. We're expecting a baby. I'm about to graduate college. I have a beautiful relationship with my family. There's no secrets, no unfinished business. I'm, you know, I have 3 beautiful sponsees. I'm very involved in the recovery community here in Los Angeles. And, um, and, uh, you know, where I said I had a 9th grade education until 4 and a half years ago, I'm, you know, I, I had so much fear around internally calling myself stupid that, like, I just, like, had so much fear around ever going back to school and Oh yeah. The pandemic happened and I was like, what am I going to do with my life? And I decided to go to school. And it's honestly, I'm on the Dean's List. I have, you know, a 4.0 and I am in school for something I'm passionate about, which is behavioral health. But for me, it was like I was supposed to be dead at 18 years old, you know, like every card that could be stacked against me was stacked against me. And, uh, you know, when I decided to stop playing Russian roulette with my life, That is when the miracle happened for me, because every time I picked up and used— because I don't know how to use like in general, like that's just, that's just not my story.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so for me to use is for me to die. And I'm very clear about that. And I know that sounds a little dramatic and that may not be everyone's story, but that's my story. I don't know how to just do a little bit on a weekend. And, you know, go out to a party with my friends and then go to work on Monday. Like, yeah, for me, I lose everything. I burn down my relationships. I, uh, put myself in very risky situations. And, uh, I, I turn into a complete mess. Like, I, I literally bulldoze through people's life in a complete cyclone when I get high.

Mm-hmm.

Like, all bets are off. And so, uh, I never thought that my life would be what it is today. And for me, it was just I had to do a few simple things, right? I had to become vulnerable and really look at myself internally and figure out, you know, is this the man that I want to be? And if it's not, I need to put some action in place and make some changes. And I had to become really authentic in myself and in my truth and figure out who I was as a gay man and stop living in fear for me. And I had to, you know, that was really important to me. And that was a really long journey. And then I had to surrender. You know, I had to surrender to my— to the fact that I was a crystal meth addict and that I can't go out to dinner and have a glass of wine for me because that will lead to me Uh, being in a hospital on my deathbed. Um, and I had to surrender to the fact that I don't know everything and I have to take my ego out of a lot of things. I suffer from having a huge ego and low self-esteem. And so for me, um, you know, I really had to do some internal work.

Mm-hmm.

And really look at like the stuff that happened to me as a child made me to the person that I was. And like the stuff that happened to me when I was out there will turn me into the man that I am today. And Um, I, through many years of therapy and like outside work, I was always operating from a place of fear. And I was approaching things, uh, uh, in, in what was called the adaptive child, um, state of mind for me. And it was like this like codependent behavior. Love me, love me, love me. Stay away from me, stay away from me, stay away from me. And it was like this.

Mm-hmm.

I wanted all of these things, but like I didn't, I was so scared to let anybody too close. So I would like bring them in and push them away and I was a mess for me, you know. And, and I'm not saying I still— like, I still fuck up, I still make mistakes today, but I also have the ability to say, hey, I'm sorry, and like, how can I make this right? And for me, there's a lot of power in that. There's a lot of power in vulnerability. And I think there's a lot of power in navigating life through the lens of like, how can I be of service? And for me, that's where I think my life has gotten so beautiful today, is because I really try to live And solution and integrity. So it's beautiful. It really is beautiful.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So many things popped out for me on that. And I know we're supposed to talk about a topic today, which it all flows together. But one thing that I'd like to ask you about your story that That stood out. When you were in your relationship, it was an abusive relationship. When it ended, he committed suicide. It caused you to relapse. So what I hear a lot are people getting sober, they're stopping, they don't use crystal meth anymore, either because they get in a relationship or they get in a relationship right after that. And then when something happens to the relationship, they go right back out. Yeah. So what do you think? I mean, you, I mean, I don't know if this applies because you're in an abusive relationship, but what do you think we can do while we're in a relationship to kind of continue to work on our recovery as if we're still tempted? Because I see these guys that get in a relationship, they don't want crystal meth anymore because, you know, they have the sex, they have the relationship, they have what they think is intimacy, and they forget that they have an addiction. Until it's presented again. So what do you suggest for that?

I'm of two minds. You know, for me, there's this old 12-step saying of like, you don't get in a relationship for a year. And I do see that. I do see the magic in that. But for me, my sponsor was like, date at 60 days, go on dates, because you learn more about yourself when you're interacting with other people than you will ever learn by being by yourself.

And that's right.

And so for me, like, I would see all of these Well, they, you know, in, in, in the 12-step world, they call them character defects, right? But for me, it was like areas of opportunity of things.

Thank you. Thank you.

And it was like the things that would pop up that would be like jealousy and insecurity and toxic traits and, you know, codependency and just all of these things. And for me, it was just I was— I'm always looking for something outside to fix what's going on. Internally, whether that's a relationship, food, sex, drugs, uh, love, uh, all of it. I was always looking for something out there to fix what was going on inside of me. And what I have found is sitting with myself is where the most healing happened because I really got the ability to figure out who I was and where I wanted to go. Um, and, and my relationship today with my husband is absolutely beautiful, but I know that I would not have that relationship without all of the challenging relationships that I'd had in my past that led me to be able to be in this place of having a beautiful relationship and loving communication. And, uh, uh, you know, but, but I— if someone was, you know, trading dick for drugs or drugs for sex or whatever, I mean, the question for me is like, what's going on internally that we're looking for something outside to to utilize as a coping mechanism or coping strategy to like, what's going on? Like, where's the bruise at? Where is the internal, uh, where is the internal hurt that we really need to explore? Um, and for me right now, I mean, it's shopping, you know. It's, it's— and it's stupid stuff, right? Like, it's always going to be something. Uh, um, and it's also Ice cream. You know, and so, but, you know, I do have that ism. I do have the ism and it's very present with me where it's like, I don't know how, you know, I go to dinner with friends that are normies and like, I will see them order a glass of wine and we get up from dinner and they still have this much left of it. And I'm sitting there looking at that glass of wine thinking like, how the hell can you do that? Like, that is good. I mean, my hat is off to you, but like, you know, that, that's, you know. And so anyway, I don't know if I answered your question. I could be going off. Um, it's always looking for outside. For me, it was also always looking for something outside to fix what was going on inside. And, and if I felt like that need of like those things are taking over my life and like I needed to recenter myself, I would always have to look inward and figure out What kind of internal work I needed to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if— so to listeners, if you jump in a relationship and all of a sudden everything's fine, that's telling you that you're filling your void through the relationship and through someone else, right? And that gives you an indication that there's work to do on you, right? Because you take that person away and you're still left with that void. So that's a side topic, but it's an important one because, well, for me it comes up when When there's an argument, right?

Like, when there's an argument, you instantly go to this place of, I'm not okay. And for me, that's when I know that there's something that that relationship is covering up. Because if there's an argument, and y'all are trying to figure out how to communicate effectively, and you're able to show up in that loving communication, and it's not like this, we're getting in a fight, my world is on fire.

Right, right.

Then it's a whole nother— then I think it's something else. I think dating and intimacy is so interesting. And And I think, yeah, you're right, it's a whole nother topic.

But, but, um, but yeah, it's important though. And I also, I also see what I, what I try to get my clients to do is when you start to date, don't take it as this is the person I'm going to be with for the rest of my life. Say, take, approach dating as an experiment. Like, I'm going to find out what Is left in me to heal. Because when you get into a relationship, like you're saying, and when you date, that's going to bring up all your shit, all of it, everything you didn't know was there. It's going to bring it up. So use dating as an experiment to say, oh, this is what— these are the things that are triggering me, these are the things I need to work on. And use it as a gift. Work on that, then find the person, right? Like you did. Then find the person that you want to have for the rest of your life.

For me, sex was a lot easier than dating because I didn't feel like I had any value to bring to the table when I was dating someone.

Mm-hmm.

So like, you know, imagine going on a date. For me, in my head, this is the narrative that I would tell myself. I have a 9th grade education. I'm a recovering crystal meth addict. I, you know, have a, have an entry-level job. I, you know, I have, you know, at the time I had 5 teeth in my mouth, you know, like whatever. And I would like have this conversation with my head like, I'm a piece of shit. I'm not good enough for this. I have nothing to bring to this. However, I can't have random sex and like not become vulnerable and not get hurt. Um, and so, uh, you know, it became— it— I don't think I was able to show up on a date for other people because I was so consumed with myself.

Yeah.

Um, and when I started like fixing some of those things and doing the work, I was able to show up and and date. But I, you know, I'm, I'm an open book, like I told you. And so like, when I would— on my first date with people, I would just lay it all out on the table. And I'm like, if you want to stay, great. If you don't, like, yeah, you know, great meeting you. Hope, you know, best of luck. And, um, you know, but yeah, dating is, is definitely challenging, especially here in Hollywood. Everybody's beautiful, you know. And I'm in Mississippi, I'm a 10, but in Los Angeles, I'm, I'm a 6, you know.

Yeah.

The narrative I would tell myself.

Uh, so you're a 15 here where I'm in South Carolina. So, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So some of that shame, and we're, we're near— we're peeling down to internalized homophobia now. But, um, I always tell guys too, when I started dating, I would have all that on my profile, like HIV, meth addict, blah blah blah blah blah, you know, divorced, 2 kids, you know. And I thought it was I'm just being honest, you know. But what it was was, I'm ashamed of these things and I'm throwing them out there.

Yeah.

And if you still stick around, then, then I'm going to be like, oh, I, I'm— you're— I'm, I'm good enough for you, right? I'm going to cower down and say I'm so lucky that you are paying attention to me. And some of the guys would really lean into that pretty well too. Yeah, right.

I am a huge advocate. I, I— on that though, I am a huge advocate for talking about Sobriety and—

Sure.

And apps and profiles because—

Oh yeah.

Uh, you know, it— for me, it's just any level of, uh, uh, I know this is a little off topic, but any level of like preventative of putting yourself in a risky situation when you're hooking up or doing something. I think for me it's really important to talk about that because, um, when I was high, if I saw somebody was sober, the last thing I want to do is like You know, getting high.

And, and there's the opposite, though.

Totally.

There's a lot of guys who go after crystal meth. That's their fetish.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so I, yeah, I have— so I do have sober— well, I have sobriety coach, recovery coach on my— I have a Hinge. Actually, I deleted it 2 days ago, but I had a Hinge. And this guy, you know, messaged me. He's like, well, I'd have never— I've, you know, I have no experience with addiction. I don't know if you're interested. I was like, I'm very— he was, he was sober, but I was like, if I could date somebody that doesn't talk about crystal meth, that'd be great. You know what I mean? Or addiction. Um, but, you know, he was sober, but only by because he'd never used. So, but anyway, internalized homophobia. Let's talk about it. I went to My Claude assistant, who I reference a lot in my podcast because he's a little bitch that keeps me on task, but I asked him what about internalized homophobia. So for you, those of you who are listening that aren't quite sure, here's what, uh, my AI assistant says. Internalized homophobia refers to when LGBTQ+ people absorb and turn against themselves the negative attitudes, beliefs, stereotypes, and prejudices about LGBTQ+ people that exist in our heteronormative society. This can manifest in various ways we can go through. Does that— what do you think about that definition, Paulo?

I think it's great. But it's funny because I was talking to Mel, who was on one of your previous podcasts, who I work very closely with, and they brought up this topic to me. And it just had me— I went home and I could not fall asleep because I was thinking about it. Because when she— when they said it, I was like, Whoa. And Mel had brought up looking at it as homonegativity instead of homophobia, because it basically is talking about a narrative that you're telling yourself. And phobia is fear, whereas negativity is like this negative narrative. So it said it was talking about homonegativity, or Mel was talking about homonegativity instead of home— uh, internalized homophobia. And I thought that was very interesting.

Ah. Okay, so what is some—

uh-huh. It was about a narrative that I would tell myself. It was this narrative that, like, because I'm gay, I'm not good enough. Um, and, and I thought it was very interesting when they said that. So yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, so, um, it was an adaptive behavior that I learned as a child to be able to exist societally. Um, where I, you know, had believed wherever all of the negative things that I had heard from people when they were using derogatory language to me in the way that I presented. So even as an adult, and it carried me into life where I would, I would have my shoulders up more and I would, my voice would become deeper and the way that I navigated even intimacy, right? Because we, you know, we know where masculinity is, is more preferred in some sexual circles than femininity. And so, you know, it would be this thing where I would like walk around and I I was trying to project myself a certain way to the world because inside I was not okay with who I was.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It fueled my using for a very long time. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I read a study. I've read several studies about this and for crystal meth use among gay men or men who have sex with men, gay and bisexual men. So there's 2 main reasons they start. One is Sex, obviously, right? But the other is internalized homophobia is one of the top reasons why these men turn to crystal meth. And so I tell my story a lot of when I first used. I, you know, I, with my first puff, I forgot to— I forgot to watch how I talked and how I acted. I forgot about it all. I, I was able to enter this world, this space where it didn't matter anymore. For the first time in my entire life, because I pretended to be straight. And then when I became— and then I came out, I still got, uh, notes from guys about my effeminate nature and that I didn't look as masculine as my pictures, right? Um, and so crystal meth took all of that away. And not only did it take my internalized homophobia away, but it allowed me then to be brave enough to explore sexually all the things I wanted to. explore, right?

Of course. And then also for me, it's— feel— am I breaking up again?

Yeah, you were paused, but go ahead.

Okay, so for me, um, shame is very much attached to my— the internalized homophobia or negativity that I experienced. And so I know that shame, for me, uh, crystal meth is a shame killer.

Right.

The minute that I, I utilized crystal meth, my— the shame was out the window. Like, I was liberated. I was free. I was able to, you know, explore sexually however I wanted. I was able to just not really care anymore. And all of the shame and fear that I carried around was just gone. Then the minute that I got sober from crystal meth, I was left with shame and fear. And it was amplified, and I had to figure out how to navigate life, um, and in a place of fear. And it was through doing the work that I realized— and for me, irrational fear is something that I suffered with. And, and I was— it was, for me, it was fear of failure, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being accepted, fear of not being loved, fear of being loved, fear of abandonment, fear of financial insecurity. Like, the list goes on, right? Like, as, as a drug addict and alcoholic, for me, I can take one small thing and turn it into this huge catastrophe in my mind.

Yeah.

And then when I want to try to figure out how to solve it, I'm looking at this huge mountain and I'm like, I'm never going to get to the top of that mountain. And when I started looking at it one step at a time to get up that mountain, that's when it was digestible for me. And I was able to actually like start patting myself on the back when I would start having these little bits of progress, right? Like it was like, you know, I went— this sobriety, I started working for somebody that I had hired in my previous sobriety. It's one of the most humbling things in the entire world. And I had to go back into an entry-level job to a career that I was very successful in. And, um, I started making these little steps of progress and little bit of progress started feeling better and better. Um, and but for me, like, fear and shame are 2 of the biggest reasons that I use. And for me, that was very much tied into me hating myself for being a gay man.

Mm-hmm.

And not being, not being my brothers, not being what my parents wanted from me, not having a family, uh, not being able to carry on the generation of my father's name. And all of these things. Like, that was all stuff that I had in my head at the time. Now I'm able to adopt with my husband and have a child and, and, you know, carry on my family legacy and my family name. But, but like, all of that stuff, all of that stuff that I was telling myself— I'm not good enough, I'm a piece of shit, I'm never going to amount to anything, um, you're too gay, you have to carry yourself this way, you have to walk this way, you have to dress this way, you To— you're, you know, you're, you're never gonna get the job. And just all of that shit like that we tell ourselves, and that I was telling myself when I was like newly sober in my active addiction. Uh, this narrative, it, it was killing me inside more than addiction, to be honest.

Mm-hmm.

That like internalized hate and who— how I hated myself as a person and as a gay man. Um, you know, as for people in our community, and to be honest, I'm sure, you know, there's internalized transphobia, there's— and, you know, our community is faced with this because society tells us that we are the scum of the earth. I mean, look on TV right now, you know, it's like there are laws being passed in this country that says we aren't valid as human beings.

Mm-hmm.

And so, like, how can we not hate ourselves internally when we're seeing all of this messaging and all of this stuff and At the end of the day, I'm no different than a straight man that's sitting in Tennessee right now with his wife and kids, and he is working on a farm, and I'm doing the work that I'm doing. We're both ideally operating from a person in a place of integrity and love and compassion and want to pay our taxes and generate money for our family and, and build these big, beautiful lives. We're the same person.

Mm-hmm.

Just society says he's better than you. Because he's straight.

Yeah.

And that sucks.

Yeah.

Because as a community, that's why drug use is so prevalent in our community.

That's right.

Sex and drugs and substances is the underbelly of the LGBT community. Because in the research that I've done, I found the only place in, you know, late '80s and early '90s where gay people could find community was in bars, underground, hidden away from everything. You know, and that's why it's so prevalent in our community. And it's really, really sad. And I felt like we were starting to make some progress as a community to where internalized homophobia wasn't necessarily affecting younger generations. Um, but unfortunately, with everything that's happened in the last few months, I, I don't know where we are as a community. I'm scared. I think a lot of people are scared. And being on the front lines and working with LGBT and queer folk every day, I'm seeing people that are in a lot of fear. And what I would say is find a place in a community that celebrates you for being gay. And that's where the esteem happens and the shame starts to disappear and you start to lose the fear because you're in a community of people that say, I see you, I hear you, and I'm with you. And for me, that's what changed my life.

Yeah, yeah. Don't you think we're still meeting in the hidden underground bars by using Grindr?

I call it the— it's a digital drug, you know, it really is. Whether you, whether, you know, you are addicted to substances or not, um, you know, the days of when I was, you know, going out as a younger child and cruising and bars and like that kind of like checking each other out, making eye contact in a bar, like that kind of stuff doesn't happen, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, as far as I'm aware, I mean, I've been married, in a relationship for a while, but But like, I was using the apps as a digital addiction for validation and to get laid. And it removed any sort of meaningful connection or communication. And, and it just kind of eliminated all of that, right? Where like, it was just, it was like Uber Eats. Yeah.

Yeah. But we see this. So talk to me, talk to us because you had broken up earlier. But talk to us about homonegativity What's the difference? What— how does it fit in with internalized homophobia?

So for me, if I hear the word phobia, I think fear.

Okay.

It's a fear. It's fear-based, right? If I hear the word narrative, it's a story that I'm telling myself. Okay. So, you know, when Mel, who I adore and I hold in a very high esteem for someone that has, like, you know, kind of just pioneered this whole sexualized drug use and chemsex kind of Uh, I don't want to use the word revolution, but it is. Yeah, it's revolutionary, right? Yeah, it's putting, it's putting context into what I suffered with half my life. Yeah. Um, and this is somebody that, like, I, I value. And when they said that, for whatever reason, a light bulb went off because I'm not scared of being gay. I'm scared— I hate myself for being gay.

Right.

That's what, that's what internalized homophobia is. Okay, I hate myself because society doesn't think that I'm a normal person. Again, I took in everything that people were saying. I internalized it.

Yes.

And so for me, it's a narrative, which I then feel is like negativity. It's a negative narrative. Um, you know, I do have fear of holding my husband's hand when I go home to Mississippi to visit my family and we go to the Waffle House. You know, I don't want to hold my— I get scared to hold my husband's hand there. But I'm not scared of being a gay man today. Now, that's not everybody's story because I do realize I live in Los Angeles, and I'm very privileged to live here. And I'm not a trans woman of color living in Alabama. So like, I do understand that there is fear around identifying as part of the LGBT community. But it is, for me, a narrative. And that narrative is changeable.

Yeah, yeah. Yes. And that's— so that is more relevant when it comes to sexualized drug use. Because I would say it's the more the fact that we've turned against ourselves. Right, that's, that's what causes shame anyway, right, when we've turned against a part of ourselves. So, um, and also we see it in our own community.

Yeah.

Mask, mask for mask, or guys who refuse to bottom, right? And just different little things that these people, you know, there's some in our community that, that's, that are, they are negative, homo-negative, right? And then when you are impressionable, maybe newer on the scene like I was, and you kind of hear those kinds of things, it makes you hate yourself even more because this is supposed to be the place that's safe, right?

Unfortunately, we look at a food chain sometimes, right?

And yes, we do.

White masculine tops are at the top of the gay food chain.

Exactly. That's exactly what I say.

And then you look, you look down the food chain and, you know, it usually goes with masculinity. And, and, and, you know, I hear— and I'll use this as an example— I hated myself so much for being gay. In sobriety, I have started doing drag, um, and I have found— and I, I just do it for fundraisers and for fun.

Yeah.

It's kind of turned into a thing. Um, but for me, I have been able to tap into this feminine energy that I have, and I feel liberated. When I do it.

Yeah.

Now, you know, I, I, to be honest, I have a husband who's secure enough and loves me and supports me, but my internalized, uh, homo negativity would have never let me do that if I was a single man because I would have been so scared to do it because in my head I'm like, nobody's gonna find me attractive, I'm never gonna get laid. Um, you know, and so, uh, but like, I'm so grateful that my husband is supportive of my, my drag alter ego so that when I get to do it, it doesn't, you know, it is something that makes me happy and it's something that I feel like I've been hiding my entire life.

Yeah.

And it doesn't make me any less of a person. Yeah. And previously in my life, I loved watching drag, but I would never sleep with a drag queen.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, where, where is that coming from? Right. And it's coming from that place of like being scared of like being queer. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yes. Right, right, right, right. Yes. So when guys— okay, when they begin their recovery journey and they think life is going to be grand and all their problems are over now, When they go to have sex, it's sober. And when you're sober, you're, you're grossly aware of your insecurities, you know, of your thoughts, you know, you're present, right? And that's when that, that internalized homonegativity— I'm, I'm training myself here— internalized homonegativity is blaring at the time, right? So that's what I hear is guys who Where tops, when they use, are embarrassed of their dick size now, or guys who bottom, when they use, can't open up, right? Because they're so tense because of, I'm not supposed to be doing this, is like that internal voice, right? What would your advice be for us who want to get past that?

I think that it's something that I went through, right? Like, I, you know, I didn't start having Uh, and in my end, to piggyback on that before, it's being able to have the kind of sex we like to have when we were high. How do we get to have that kind of sex in sobriety?

Right.

For me.

Yeah.

And, and so, um, for me it took practice and I had to— the conversation that I had to have was for— and this is what worked for me and this may not work for everybody, but I would have conversations with people that I was intimate with And I would say, hey, I have 7 months sober. It's been a very long time since I've had sober sex, and I'm trying to navigate this process. If— would you be open to navigating this with me, um, and be open to communication and vulnerability? Um, and I would have that conversation with people that I felt safe with in order to explore that. And then once that kind of started happening, it— for me, that it just kind of Floodgates, and then all of that was out the window, and I was able to kind of start getting rid of that, that shame and that negative self-talk. But at the same time that I was exploring sex, I was, I was doing the work that I needed to do with the therapist and with the mental health professional, and then also in 12-step programming, which again isn't for everybody, but this is what worked for me.

Yeah.

Um, and, and it was kind of this, like, I was doing what I call wraparound care. Right, where I treat the mind, body, and spirit. And that for me is what worked because I'm aware that my addiction was a 3-part disease and it was mental, physical, and spiritual. I was addicted mentally, physically, and spiritually to the, to the substances and to the lifestyle of using drugs and alcohol. And I had to replace that with some sort of therapeutic element. And in mental, physical, and spiritual, whether it was meditation or spin class or the gym or whatever that part was, I was working with others. I was of service. I was showing up for my community. And doing those things made me feel sexier. It made me forget about a lot of those things. It's weird. And, and there is no right or wrong answer, you know. I think that, um, having sexual experiences that feel safe Is going to be the key to getting rid of any sort of negative kind of stuff. Because I have, you know, been intimate and said, hey, I'm not comfortable doing this because I, I, you know, I don't feel sexy right now because I'm, I'm bigger than I normally am, you know, because I got fat in early sobriety, right? Like, I, I, I, I was on meds, I was on meds, I was finally eating. I Like put on a huge amount of weight when I first got sober. I didn't feel sexy at all. And I don't know if I'm answering your question. But I think—

You are, you are.

I think for me, it's just figuring out how to feel safe.

Yeah, I like this mental, physical, and spiritual addictions, because men like it to be broken down into categories like this, right? To give them some targeted focus. So If, if I am newly in sobriety and I'm having trouble with sober sex, look at meeting your needs mentally, physically, spiritually, right? Giving back, meditating, like you're saying, going to the gym. Start doing those things and something clicks in there, right? You click, you get reconnected with yourself. And there's something about that too. When you get— start being more comfortable in your own skin, you're not so negative about— and here's the thing that happens too. Is that when you get reconnected with yourself, you get comfortable in your own skin. You start attracting a different type of person.

Totally.

Yeah.

100 percent.

Yes.

And that is a fact for me that I started. I became a decent person, and decent people started coming into my life.

Exactly right.

It was it. You know, I remember having two years over doing all the work. Working, you know, working in my career. My body was great. I was going to the gym. I had this big, beautiful life, and I got turned down by this guy that I, you know, you know, wasn't into me or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And I called my sponsor, you know, who's also a very good friend, and I was like, I see all these guys at Gold's. They're, you know, in Hollywood. They're making over $100 grand a year. They're driving BMWs. They have the perfect bodies. They have the book. Like, they got this book and Where are my cash and prizes? I'm supposed to get these promises. Like, when is all this happening? And it was like, my sponsor was like, girl, take a deep breath. Like, chill for a second. Like, let's unpack all of this and really figure out what is going on.

Right.

And, um, and, you know, for me, it was also having people in my life that I trust their judgment and I went to when I needed something. And I— and, and, and community, right? Because when I was getting high, all I wanted was to be loved. All I wanted was a community. All I wanted was friends. And, and for me, I found that in this phase of my life. And I have people that call me on my shit. I have people that come to me when they need something. And it turns into this, this beneficial relationship that goes from transactional in my previous life to beneficial, which is 2 completely different things.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that relationships are beneficial. Because if I'm not showing up for my husband, I'm not contributing to the relationship. And if my husband isn't, you know, showing up, then he, you know, these relationships become a mutually beautiful experience for both people. When previously in my life was it's what can I get from you and what do you need from me? Mm-hmm.

That's right.

And that community piece and that finding people that I trust their judgment Peace is what helped me stay sober, because I've had to have a lot of calls in the middle of the night when I was here.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And I found when I operate from here, for me, rather than here, situations end up a lot better.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you keep mentioning, you've mentioned the work a lot during this podcast and It is work. And when I say— I'd say this all the time— the crystal meth is a shortcut. Yeah, it's, it's a shortcut to eliminating shame. It's a shortcut to intimacy. It's a shortcut to getting your rocks off. It's a shortcut to— so it's a shortcut to balancing your emotions, right?

I mean, we think it's gratification, right?

So if you want anything worth— anything worth having is going to be work.

Yep.

And it takes work.

I, I remember having to, to take public transportation to try to— and beyond. In Los Angeles, if you're familiar, like, for it to get from one side of the other, one side of town to the other, it takes about 3 hours, especially on public transportation.

Mm-hmm.

And I was doing this at 5 o'clock in the morning to go to a job on the other side of town and make minimum wage to take a cheap bus all the way back and to manage a sober living. I can barely pay my bills. I can't, you know, I, I'm living in the most expensive, one of the most expensive cities in the country. I'm newly sober, so I'm smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. So that costs, you know, like all of this stuff. And, and I'm, I hated it then. And then I was telling my sponsor this story the other night. Um, I had bought a car and my window didn't roll down on my car, and all I could afford was fast food. So I would go through the fast food lane and have to open my door to get food out because my window wouldn't roll down. And I was so embarrassed about it. But today I'm so grateful for that because if I— there's no way I would ever be the Paulo that I am today without having that Paulo have to be humbled and experience that part. And in the moment, I hated it and I couldn't see past it. I could not see where my life was going. I thought this was it. Like, I got sober for this.

Hmm.

And then today Those stepping stones for me have made me appreciate everything that I have in my life today. And I'm so grateful for those experiences to be able to remember that. Because for me, instant gratification— I get high, my, you know, it's instant gratification. When I got sober, I wanted this big, beautiful life.

Yes.

Right? In 30 days, I was like, yep, you know, I'm sober, where's all the shit? Like, where's my life, you know? And it just didn't work out for me. And for that, it doesn't work out like that for a lot of people sometimes. And, and as addicts and alcoholics, we have to remember to just slow down and like, life will happen. And for me, it's if I do the right thing, everything will work out. If I come from a place of integrity and I show up and I surrender the outcome, like, everything will work out the way that it's supposed to. And if it doesn't, I'm still sober and I'm gonna be okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot of guys who listen to this who are in similar situations that you just described, and, and you feel like— I forgot what the word is for it, but it's when you feel like what you're experiencing now is the rest of your life. It's forever, right? I don't remember what the word is, but And you just, you can sink into that or you can cling on to hope that everything in life is temporary. Everything, right? So, well, did we cover everything?

I think that we covered a lot. And, you know, I love talking about this kind of stuff. Like, this stuff fuels my fire today, right?

Yeah.

Because I'm hoping that some person in a very small city that is struggling with crystal meth use, that doesn't have the resources or the community accessible to them that we have here in Los Angeles, gets to hear this podcast and knows and understands that, like, you can live a life without using crystal meth and other substances and have this big, beautiful life and be a gay man or Or a trans woman, and you can, you can never— you can navigate life as a person that is healed from substance use disorder and do anything you want. Like, it is possible.

Yeah.

Because every single card possible was stacked against me. Everything. And, um, and so yes, that was my intention with coming on this podcast. And again, I've been listening to your content, and I really love the work that you're doing. Because you're putting— you're shining a spotlight on something that, um, hasn't really been talked about.

Yeah, and that's right.

I love it. That's right.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, the community, it's not— and it's definitely not just the US. It's, you know, all over the world. All over the world. Um, okay. Was there anything that we left out here? And I want you to talk about your upcoming podcast, but by the time, by the time this comes on, it'll be almost ready, right? Um, but was there anything that we— that I left out that you wish I would have asked or brought up?

No, I think that we went into a lot of things, right? We went over shame, we went over fear, we went over internalized homophobia or internalized homonegativity. We talked about, um, you know, how we feel like crystal meth has ravaged the gay community and We've talked about some solutions. And, and also, you know, I think for me, crystal meth gave me wings and took away the sky. And I'm very clear about that. And today, I— the world is— I have the whole sky open.

Yeah.

And I just can't— when, for me, when I see that light turn on in people's eyes that I work with, or the, you know, families that I'm working with, and I start to see a little bit of that healing process start. Like, that for me is where the magic is. And so, um, as someone who has been through that, I came from the shadows and now I'm in the light. And I think that we covered all of that in this podcast, and I would love to continue this, uh, journey that we're on with chatting and figuring out, you know, some other great topics. But yeah, but, um, but yeah, I think we did it. I, I talk a lot and I am not able to stay on But that's topic all the time.

But you know what, that's much easier for me because I get some people on here and I'm dragging the words out of them. I do want you— I would love for you to come back and let's do a show directed only to the loved ones of crystal meth users because I'm inundated with those messages too. Um, I'm the— I'm the— yeah, the mother, the sister, the, the brother, the family member, the best friend, the partner. These are— this group really needs some, some hope and some advice.

Addiction is a family disease. And I, you know, I, um, I'm gonna get emotional talking about this, but, um, the reason I stayed sober is because I was tired of hearing my mom cry, not knowing whether I was dead or alive. And when my mom died 2 years ago, we had zero secrets. I had done the work in this room. In the program, I you know had made my amends. I was able to show up financially, emotionally for my family, and and and there we had no unfinished business. None. And if my mom would have passed prior to me and her getting to that place, I don't know if I'd still be here. Oh wow! To be honest. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so when I talk to families and I talk to mothers. Um, it's really important work for me because addiction is a family disease. And I, I, and I can't wait to talk about it because the behavior isn't just with the person that's addicted to the substances. The behavior has to change with the family.

That's right.

And whether that's boundaries on both sides and conversations on both sides, families are very complex. Family systems are very complex. And yeah, And it's something that I'm super passionate about. That's where I find the really healing work is the stamina work.

Well, let's talk about that next.

You're like, shut up, bitch.

No, on the next episode. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's perfect. That's a great topic because a lot of questions around like, how much do I do? When am I enabling? Right? Like, how do I be there for them? What do I say? What do I not say? Those are— that's valuable. And so you're, you're right on the front lines with that. Um, and I want to say too, back to, um, internalized homonegativity, that it's still, you know, I'm 48. I've done a lot of the work, you know, I've done the stuff. And even today, this morning, I joined a new gym and I had to, I had to go to the, like, the orientation thing.

Oh.

And last weekend Um, I spent the weekend with my friend. I took my friend out of town, my best friend, for his birthday, and he gets his nails done. Um, and he was getting these elaborate nails, and he talked me into it, so I got these done. Very—

I love it.

Very demure, very subtle.

But is that— Is that Ballet Slipper? Is it the name of the color, Ballet Slipper?

I don't know, I just pointed at it.

The reason I'm asking, it's my favorite It's a sensible nude.

Yeah, that— yeah, that's it. Sensible nude.

Yeah.

Um, that's as wild as I get right there. Um, but I looked at them this morning when I was on the way because I was going to meet a trainer, and I was like, ah, I was embarrassed by the— by these.

You know what that is?

Internalized film of negativity. Yeah, I know, I know. So I was like, oh wow, I'm getting ready to talk about this today too, and here I am. You know, and, um, yeah, so, but it was funny.

He—

I don't know his name, Cody, Braden, something like that. Uh, this, you know, this young little trainer. And, um, I was, you know, here I am, this old— I felt like this old man with these nails, but his nails were out like this. So I felt at home.

Right.

But yeah, I mean, it's still, it's still with you, you know, it's still with me sometimes. And I have to be like, whoa, you know, why am I embarrassed by this? What what is this? What's coming up for me? But it's a it's a really good chance to ask those questions and go inside and clear some additional shame out, right?

Totally.

Yep yep. Oh your podcast. Can you mention your podcast coming up?

Yes. So I am launching a podcast and I'm so excited that Dallas is going to be a guest on it. More info to come, but it will be available on all streaming. platforms, and it will be called Busted on Bourbon Street. And we're going to— it's the idea behind it is going to be for LGBTQ folks and allies to talk about their stories of recovery, talk about how we beat the odds and, you know, how we built this, these big, beautiful lives in sobriety and recovery. And can I just say one other thing, though, really quick?

Sure.

I know I've talked a lot about abstinence on here, and I don't want people to be deterred from this. This is just what's worked for me, is remaining abstinent from substances.

Yeah.

There are many other options other than abstinence for people, harm reduction models and things like that. And so I don't want people to get the wrong idea that I'm sitting here saying they need to stop using all drugs That was just what I needed to do for me and my story. I do work for an abstinence-based organization. However, I am an advocate for harm reduction. And I do need to say that because it does save lives. You know, fentanyl testing strips and testing your drugs and, you know, clean needles and clean syringes. If you're gonna use, try to use as safely as possible. And there are solutions. Right? Like, there are, there are solutions. And I do want to say that.

Yeah. Thank you.

Of course, my hope is that as the LGBT community and the queer community and the recovery community, people like you continue to shine spotlights on, on these conversations, because they're needed. And there are people that, that will be listening to this podcast that that hopefully get to learn or hear something. It's a switch that flips for them.

Yeah.

And for me, that's, that's what is really important. So I genuinely appreciate you having me on here. I can't wait to have you on. Bust it on Bourbon Street.

You know, on Bourbon Street. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. Yeah, hopefully in person too, right?

Yeah, I think so. We're gonna try to make it happen. Yeah.

Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this, and I really enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Thank you. And guys, yeah, you know what to do. You know where to go. You know, share, like, blah blah blah, all the stuff. And we'll see you next week. Okay. Bye.