BYOU - Mental Health by Solène Anglaret

Hello everyone and welcome to the Be You Podcast. My name is Anik Motzheim, and in this podcast I talk with the greatest people from all around the world. People who change their own life to create a better impact in other people's lives. I've been nominated to become the global thought leader in health technology, but I cannot change the world by myself. The world needs more global thought leaders. Because together we can make a change. That's why I asked Solène to talk with us about mental health. She's the founder of Beyond Borders, author of 4 books, and public speaker. Let me introduce you, Solène!

Welcome to the BeHood Show!

It's such an honor to have you because you are the first one Since we changed the name into Be You, and yeah, I'm all about well-being and mental health. So yeah, that's why we changed the name from Luxury Beauty into Be You. Yeah, I'm very grateful that you want to be my first guest.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

So tell me something about yourself.

How long do you have is the question. Something about myself, I am originally from France. I was born and raised in France. When I was 18, I moved abroad for the first time. I've lived in 6 countries and traveled to, I think it's 58 now, so quite a few. I love traveling. I always wanted to explore the world because I was really passionate about finding out about different cultures, different people, and always wondering like, how can we break down the borders and really bring people closer together? And so that's what I try to do, or I work towards through Be Beyond Borders, my business, through my books. I am really passionate about talking about belonging, talking about mental health, talking about cross-cultural communication, collaboration, and everything. So yeah, and I guess maybe career-wise, so I started a long time ago, it feels now like 12 years. So I started in the environmental sector, then I worked in the travel industry for many years, and more recently I started working in innovation and helping young people and disabled people to access funding and support to create and grow their business. So I do that as well as running my own business and just really trying everything that I can to work towards equity and justice.

Wow. And about your company, can you tell me a little bit more about Be Beyond Borders? Because I saw the name and I thought, okay, Interesting borders, like beyond it. Can you tell me more about that?

Happy to. So Be Beyond Borders started for me as a blog. I wanted to share the stories of people who live in different countries or are from different places, because I thought the more we get to know each other across the borders, the more we realize that we have so much in common. There's that tendency that we're just sitting there looking at what are the differences between people, and I wanted to bring a bit more nuance to that and show that this so much similarities between, you know, lots of different people from lots of different backgrounds and places. So that's how it started. And then I realized, well, as part of that, I really also wanted to tell my own story of like moving around, really looking for home. I moved abroad at first because I really wanted to find this place where I belong and I couldn't find it. And that took me on a whole journey from like looking for it outside to kind of figuring out that maybe it's more looking for it inside, or maybe even creating it inside.

Wow.

And so that's how Be Beyond Borders evolved towards becoming a small publishing company. So like you said, I published 4 books. I now also have a talk show called The Inclusion Conversation, where I bring different guests who talk about different aspects of diversity, inclusion, disability, mental health. It's really always about this idea of, it's not just physical borders, but it's also kind of the mental borders or the biases that we carry, and that I really want to contribute to Breaking down, removing, lowering, so that we can all realize that we're all human, and you know we all have so much in common and so much to celebrate and to share.

And about when you traveled a lot, and now with your company Be Beyond Borders, can you tell me how it all started for you? How did you came up with this idea?

It's during the travels actually that I came up with the idea for Be Beyond Borders. I was living in China at the time, and. I went to Korea for just a solo trip for a long weekend because from China it's not that far, you know, not like from Europe where I am now. So yeah, I went just by myself and I was walking around a shrine in Seoul and maybe it was because of the, I don't know, the spiritual environment and I was just like, I really want to do something more with my life than just live it. Like, I want to help people. It sounds really cheesy, but it's true. Like, I want to help people. I want to bring people together. Also, it came from a place, I guess, of sadness and anger too. Like, I think it all is part of the experience in the sense that it just made me so sad and angry to see so many wars and conflicts of people who say, oh, these people, they're not like us. It's them versus us. And because the more I travel, the more I realize, but no, in the end, like, we all want similar things. We want to be healthy, we want our families and friends to be healthy and happy, to lead a fulfilling life. And so I was just like, could I do something that would help build a bridge between different people and different cultures? So that's how the idea kind of all started, and it all came together in that shrine I was walking in. I was like, the name is Bibi on Border.

This is the name.

Wow.

So you see a lot of separation now between people, and it is amazing that you bring people together, that like, we are all the same. Maybe you live over there, but in the end we are all the same. And it is so amazing to connect people from all around the world. So yeah, I love that.

So yeah, and I think we're all the same and we're all different, which is like super amazing, but it's really hard because we really, in our minds, we like to have things in clear boxes. Like, this person or this thing is like this. And so I'm trying to bring that nuance where it's like, could we celebrate as much our similarities and also our differences? Because our similarities make us human and our differences make us unique.

And I saw a thing about mental health disorders and how do you work with that? Can you tell me more about that and how you work with that at Beyond Borders?

Part of bringing everyone together is talking about things that we tend not to talk about. And so I'm really passionate, especially about talking about mental health. I said that I have this talk show called The Inclusion Conversation as part of what I do with Be Beyond Borders. And that covers a lot of different episodes and a lot of the topics are around mental health. So we talked about suicide, we talked about personality disorders, we talked about identity and belonging. So lots of different topics that are linked Together. I think my passion there really comes from lived experience. So I've always felt different, like growing up, I knew, I just, it's not that I thought, I just knew that my brain seemed to work differently. But I did my best to hide it because I thought I need to be as close as possible to what seems to be normal. And over time, it got worse. And I hit a really low point. I think like many people during the pandemic. And that's when I was finally diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. At first, there's a mix of relief and fear because of all the stigma. And then after going through therapy and really like learning so much about BPD and also about myself, I've come to realize that I don't want to hide it from the world. Because I think it's really important, again, to break the borders of our preconceptions, our judgments, etc., and talk about these things openly and really build community and build connection around it. So I'm part of an amazing talk show called The BPD Bunch, has been created by Zanny, who is fantastic. And we talk about lived experience with borderline. And we really try our best to give hope to everyone who has diagnosis of BPD or any other diagnosis, Or who is supporting someone, caring for someone who does, or who is just interested to learn more about these topics. Because a lot of things that you learn in terms of like how to live with something like BPD are actually useful for everyone. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not just for certain diagnoses. It's just like what you learn in therapy is amazing. It's a lot of skills that can be useful for everyone. Actually, sometimes I'm like, why don't we teach that in schools? Yeah, really.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. And can you tell me more about your process? How did you find out that you had experienced something for yourself? Can you bring us through your process?

Yes, definitely. I think I need to take you back a little bit, like, yeah, maybe 3, 4 years ago when it just started to get worse for me. Like, I had a lot of dark thoughts, a lot of self-doubt, self-hatred, a lot of suicidal ideation. And there's something that people say, right? At some point you reach rock bottom. And it was interesting because my experience, it didn't feel like that. It wasn't like, oh, suddenly it's rock bottom and then, ooh, there is a way out. No, it kept feeling like there was something lower and lower and lower. And I was like, where is the bottom? Like, please give me the bottom. And the bottom was when the ideation started to really become more concrete. And I really had a difficult moment when I was like, this is it, I don't want to be here anymore. And I think for me, that moment, I realized I actually can't follow through, I'm not going to do it. And so if I'm not going to do it, then how can I make my life worth living? Because obviously, I can't continue like this. Like, this is just not okay. And so that's when I got really lucky, because a friend of a friend is a psychotherapist and told me, you need to talk to a psychiatrist. Like, this sounds really serious. And it sounds like it's something you've carried for a long time. Rather than something that may just be linked to the pandemic or something temporary. So, and that's when I just feel very blessed because of this person literally, like, really turned things around for me. And that's when I had the official diagnosis, and then could start my recovery journey from that. Just being told, it's in your head, it definitely is in your head, but it's not just in your head, if you know the expression, which means like, it's actually real, it's actually happening. And you have this different human experience. And here is— How it works, and here's a whole bunch of stuff that you can do about it if you want to, and here is a whole community of other people that have a similar experience. And those 3 things really helped so much.

Wow, I'm glad that your friend brought you in, in psychotherapy. After that, when you received your diagnosis, how did it feel for you? Tell me more about that moment when you were like, okay, I have something. How was that for you?

The first thing that happened for me when I got the diagnosis was a big sigh of relief. I thought, oh, it's real. There is a name. Someone understands. There are things that I can do, that I can try. There is a whole community of people who have a similar experience. It was like finally a liberation and getting answers and feeling like I don't have to hide anymore. There's lots that I can do, that I can learn. It was absolutely like a relief at first. And then the second step was a lot of fear. Because at first, I guess also because maybe being French, like borderline is not something that I was really that familiar with. I do have a friend who was diagnosed when we were teenagers. So I had heard of it. But her symptoms were quite different to mine. It never occurred to me that we could have the same diagnosis. And so I didn't have a lot of knowledge. So of course, what do you do when you get a diagnosis these days? You go on Google and you're like, hello, Dr. Google, tell me all the things. And of course, on Google, I mean, I shouldn't say of course, it shouldn't be this way. And it is changing, but it's a lot still needs to be done. There's so much stigma around personality disorders. We're talking much more now openly about neurodiversity, about things like anxiety, depression, which is amazing, right? And it needs to continue. And I think it needs to expand to allow us to also talk about personality disorders and other experiences in the same way that they're just different human experiences. But yes, so it was relief first, and then a whole bunch of fear. And then a journey, kind of a new path that opened up new opportunities.

Wow. And the therapy, was it only like counseling therapy or what kind of therapy did you take?

Yeah, I did dialectic behavior therapy, DBT. It's a specific therapy that is recommended, generally speaking, for borderline personality disorder. It's skills-based, which means that in group therapy you are taught a lot of different skills ways that you can cope day to day, things that you can put in practice that are very practical. And then you have the option to have one-to-one therapy where you talk to a therapist a little bit more about your background. And you also talk about specific things that are happening in your life. They help you to try different skills to navigate these things. It's a very different therapy than what I had done in the past. Because like I said, for me, it wasn't like you hit rock bottom, you turn around and oh my God, it's so much better. It was like lots of Lots of steps down, and then lots of steps up, right? Sometimes a little bit up and down in between, right?

Yeah.

And so I had tried psychoanalysis before, which is the typical image of therapy that we get when we think about therapy, which is when you talk about your childhood, and you talk about lots of things, and you kind of— you don't lie down, but like sit down in a chair and like talk for an hour, and the therapist is mainly listening, and then you go home. And for me, that didn't work. Because after I just said so many things, maybe had lots of emotions, and then I would go back to daily life and think, well, nothing changed, nothing's going on, right? So DBT was very different in that sense that it was much more practical skills, things that you could do, things that you could try, and that really helped to change your reactions. So it works just like very briefly, it looks at body sensations, emotions, behaviors, and thoughts. So that's what's different with like CBT, for example, because you're adding those like emotion and body sensation elements to the picture. It was developed by a therapist called Marsha Linehan. She had experienced borderline herself. And she had tried so many therapies that weren't working. And she went to the East and stayed in a temple. And she really picked up a lot of Buddhist philosophy and a lot of kind of like theories and skills that she brought back, and she kind of merged that together with Western therapies. So I think because of that, it's just really different, and it really worked for me personally. But of course, I need to say this, it can be different for different people, of course. And yeah, maybe just to finish, it has 4 components. So one is mindfulness, 2 is emotion regulation, 3 is distress tolerance, and then 4 is interpersonal relationships, because relationships can be really challenging when you have BPD. So yeah, it does equip you with all these brilliant skills. So if anyone is intrigued, like, go and check it out, dialectic behavior therapy. Like I said, even if you don't have a diagnosis, these skills, some of them will resonate, I think, with everyone. And the more I was going through it, the more I was like, there's such an opportunity to teach people from a very young age some of these coping skills, because like, they just make life so much easier, to be honest.

Yeah. Wow. And what was the real eye-opener for you when you went into therapy and once you did mindfulness? What was a real eye-opener for you that you can share with the listeners? What really helped you?

There were a few things that really, really helped. I think one was, for me, it was group therapy was a massive eye-opener because all of a sudden you're in a group of people who have similar brain functioning as you in that sense. So one time I remember, and this was so powerful, because one of the people in the group said that their thoughts will very often tell them, say for example, I don't know, something is not working, I don't know, something in the kitchen, and very quickly it will go from, this is not working, it's my fault, I did something wrong, I'm a failure, I'm a piece of shit, I should die. And this person saying that, and For me, I was like, oh my God, that's how it happens. That's literally— I felt like this person is in my head. But at the same time, the fact that they were saying it, not me, I realized this is so sad. I thought, this person, they're amazing. They inspire me. And for them to be thinking like this about themselves, it broke my heart. And I thought, but I think that way about myself. So it was really like this kind of mirror effect that I got. from group therapy was really, really powerful. So that was one thing. I think the— and I'll say 3 main things, even though I could speak for an hour about this. But the second thing is the skill of self-soothing. So that's one of the things that we learn in distress tolerance. So when you're really like in a state of really high emotion, like, I don't know, you're very angry or very, very sad, and you just don't know like what to do, how to regulate your emotions. One skill that we learn is called self- soothe, and it's about using different ways to like just comfort yourself, really. Just when you think about your childhood, it's kind of like using those skills from childhood but as an adult. And I realized that I had lots of cuddly toys in my life, and I never really knew why. And that's when I learned this skill. I realized that's what they do for me. So for example, today you can see— if you see me on the screen, but if you don't, I'll just tell you— I'm wearing a very cuddly scarf. It's like really, really soft. And that is because like this morning I woke up and I'm not feeling my best. And so I know this brings me that soothing, that comforting feeling. So yeah, it's just finding ways to like soothe myself when I'm feeling maybe depressed or sad or something like that. And then the third thing I think for me game-changing was learning about the mind-body. And I was about to say the mind-body connection, but it's more than a connection. It is one. I, like many Westerners, have been brought up in a culture where we say it's all about the mind and how if you're like smart and this and that, and you need to focus and you need to be rational and you need this and that and the other. But actually realizing that we're all one whole system. And so I, alongside therapy, I did a physical exercise program and I started working out and I started walking more. And all of that, I think, combined with the therapy is what really, really changed as well. Because I think when you start looking after your body, then naturally you start to care about yourself in a different way, hate yourself a little bit less, you know. And so all these different things are connected. The better you feel about your body, the better also you're looking after your mind, because it's all one ecosystem. So I think that really helped me. Oh my God, there's another thing— emotions. I always thought Anger is bad. Sadness is bad. Joy is good. And in therapy, you learn that emotions are like messages. They carry a message. They offer you something. For example, if you're sad, maybe you're grieving something. Could be a job, could be a person, could be an object, could be anything. If you're angry, it's because something went against your values. If you're feeling joy, it's because you're really in the present moment and you want to continue to be in it. So it's really pushing you towards continuing the moment. So it's like, whoa, like, that was such a game changer, because suddenly you don't have positive or negative emotions. All emotions are messages. They're like an invitation to, aha, like, this is what's happening. This is the experience that I'm having. So that was also incredible. And then I'll allow myself one final thing, and then I promise I stop. But it was discovering that wise mind. Have you heard of wise mind?

No. What? No.

I had never heard of it either. It's like, literally, it's like the first thing that you learn in DBT pretty much. And it's basically talking about, if you think about your rational mind, your rational mind is the one that is making like all these plans and decisions and thinking about what makes sense and what doesn't make sense and what you want and all of that kind of rational thinking. Then you have your emotion mind. It's all about the feelings, those emotions that come up. I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm ashamed, I'm happy, I'm hopeful, whatever. It is that you're feeling in that moment. The wise mind is in the middle. It's the intersection between the two. If you imagine 2 circles and then in the middle is that wise mind, it's when you're able to think and feel and therefore do. And it's really powerful because with BPD, but also with, you know, a lot of just daily life, right? We tend to find ourselves in one or the other. And you're like, fuck them, quit this job, I don't care. And sorry, I swore. Or we're really irrational. Oh my God, there's this, I need pros and cons. And you know, it's like the wise mind when you're able to combine the 3. Wow.

And how do you do this in real life?

Yeah, I think all of these things you can use in real life. So for example, like the one we're just talking about, the wise mind.

Yeah.

In real life, I don't know, you would have a decision to make. Like maybe you're thinking, oh, do I move abroad or stay where I live now? Or do I take this job or this other job? Or do I stay in a relationship or leave the relationship? There's so many of these kinds of decisions.

Yeah.

Knowing about wise mind helping because you're able to look at the 3 circles and say, okay, my rational mind is saying I should stay in this job. Because it's safe and it pays me the salary and da da da da da. My emotion mind is telling me I should run away because fuck it, I hate it. I just want to do something else. I just want to do my own business. I don't want to have a boss. I da da da da da. I'm feeling angry and upset about they don't care about me or something like this. So this is your two like minds, and then with the wise mind, you're able to look in the middle. Is there a way that maybe I don't know, maybe I can do this job 4 days a week and then have my own business on the side. Maybe I can do this job for 6 months and then save a lot of money and then do my own business because I will have a bit more stability. Like, your wise mind is allowing that connection between your thoughts and your emotions to really hopefully lead you to the best possible decision for you.

Wow, that is great. Like, also it opens your mind for possibilities and just trying out And don't be harsh on yourself. Like just relax kind of decisions that you can do both and then just combine it with what feels right for you. So this is awesome. Yeah. It's more relaxing. It's a calm peace of mind. Thanks for sharing this. It's interesting.

You're welcome.

Cool. Okay. So we have such an amazing interview with so much advice, so much tips we can use in our daily lives. And also about mental health disorders and how you go through things. So I hope our listeners can learn so much from you. And I would like to ask you, where can they find you?

Thank you so much for the opportunity to share. I barely scratched the surface of so much to talk about, but I hope that it was valuable for anyone listening and you can find me on my website. www.bebeyondborders.com, on Instagram @bebeyondborders, and also on LinkedIn, Solène Anglaret. I am quite active and I'm always happy to talk to people. So if there are any questions about anything I've shared or anything that you want to explore, do not hesitate to reach out. I love talking to people, to be honest.

Ah, thank you so much. All right guys, with the link in the description And I will thank you so much. And yeah, would love to see you again.