Becoming:Us with Joel & Moriah Smallbone | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have a very special bonus episode for you all. And we love bonus episodes because it's something you're not expecting. And today's interview you definitely are probably not expecting, it's with some of our dear friends, Joel and Mariah Smallbone. And you may not know those names until we tell you more about them, but you definitely know them. I know you know their music. Yes.

They are incredible people. I had the privilege of doing a Holy Land tour with Joel and Mariah several years back and just developed an instant connection and friendship with them. They're just the real deal. And two of the most talented singers, songwriters, musicians in the world. I mean, I really believe that Mariah has been releasing a lot of music as a solo artist for many years, music that you've heard and you love. And she's working on some exciting new projects now. Joel, along with his brother Luke, founded the amazing band for King and Country, which has sold, like 7 trillion albums and won every award there is to win.

And let me just say, you guys, one of my favorite concerts I've ever been to.

Oh, man, they can put on a show.

They put it all out there. It's so good.

Yeah, great, great stuff. But as impressive as these two are on a stage, they're even more impressive up close. Just getting to know them as people, getting to know them as a couple, and they're going to share some wisdom with us. We're going to have some laughs. You're going to enjoy today's conversation and also learn some insights that are going to help you in your marriage. So let's dive in. Well, like we said in the intro, we are super excited to have our friends Joel and Mariah Smallbone here, two literally of the most talented people I have ever, ever, ever been around. And, man, what a gift. What a gift. So, Joel, really serious question as we start off. This one's for you. So you are. You're a legit worldwide rock star. Like, super accomplished. Look like a male supermodel. Now, all of that, how do you still deal with being only the second most talented person in your marriage? I want to know how you cope with that, if it's hard.

David, you're very kind. Hey, we have to share something before we get into that, and I'll gladly answer your loaded question, but we have to back up because there's a great synergy that we have that we established in none other land than the Holy Land.

That's right, yes.

And I have to say this too. I will not forget. You can edit me out if you need, but I will not forget standing beside the Sea of Galilee on one of the presumed where Jesus gave his.

Sermon on the Mount.

Sermon on the Mount. The presumed location. Ish. Of the Sermon on the Mount. And Dave, very humbly but authoritatively and emotionally recited word for word the entire Sermon on the Mount. And I think both of us cried.

I think everyone was in tears by the end of it. It was so, so sweet. You didn't even say 10 words up until that point. You were a quiet, quiet, shy boy in the corner. And then next thing you know, you're reciting memorized scripture for an hour. It was amazing.

A quiet hero. A quiet hero. That's what I call you, Dave, which I would rather be than all of the sort of slightly obnoxious but gracious descriptions you gave me earlier on. I love my wife. I love partnering with her. You know, one thing that we were always taught growing up and kind of modeled, which is a beautiful thing in a sense, but is this idea of supporting one another, like support your spouse. And I actually have come to find, at least in our marriage, that the idea of supporting one another is, to say it maybe kindly, is not a very intimate affair. Like you use support 1. I get the sentiment, but you support one another for things like supporting a presidential candidate or the beam that supports the house. But this idea of eye to eye, heart to heart level partnership that I think we see you and Ashley exemplifying in work, in life, in marriage, in parenting, in business is so much more exciting. And what's marvelous about our dynamic is I feel we, we're still in the sort of front end of everything, you know, which is coming up in eight years of marriage. But, but we've loved it and I feel like we've bettered each other through our partnership. And so I'm awfully grateful for the much better half because if it weren't for her, I think most of what you have defined me as wouldn't be in existence. Because it was really when we met, I had about $50 in my account. And then after I bought her a sweater on our first date, I had $3 in my account. And I was living here at the farm, as we mentioned, off air at my parents farm, driving a 1987 old SM and just trying to make this really hokey brother duo thing work. And it was her grace and confidence and partnership and guidance through dating and then into marriage that sort of continued to plant, by the grace of God, this preposterous notion that we could actually do this.

And I came along and I said, joel, are you looking for a cheerleader or a wide receiver?

Oh, that's good. That's so good.

I love it.

And I love how you both, you know, like you said, you bring out the best in each other, you know, And I think every married couple, that's what they want. That's what they want. But I think a lot, you know, especially in hard times, like when things aren't turning out like they thought or things are taking longer than they ever dreamed, or, you know, they're like, gosh, marriage isn't really what I thought it would be like. This is so much harder. I think they start to lose sight of that, and they're like, I don't know if I can have that. And I would love it if you guys. You know, and I know, and I want to give a plug for this, but they have a podcast where they go through their whole journey. It's so amazing.

Cinematic.

It's cinematic. We only listen to it. I've seen some of the cinematic through Instagram, too. I'd love to watch the cinematic version as well, but it's called Becoming Us, and it's so good. And so definitely check that out, guys, on wherever you listen to your podcast. And also, you can check it out cinematically, but it's just beautiful. But I want to ask, you know, just for the listeners here today, what. What do you think? Like, how. What. What have each of you done to bring out the best in the other? If you want to share that. If you feel comfortable sharing that.

After you.

No, I insist.

Oh, so you're asking us to toot our own horns right now?

Yes.

Well, no. And, like, what does your spouse do? Like, what does Joel do for you? To bring out best in you. And then what? Yes. Like, you guys speak for the other. Like, what do you see in the other? And you're like, that's how he brings out the best in me. Or, that's how she brings out the best in me.

Yeah, Yeah. I think naturally, I know naturally, I am much more strategic, and I like for input to equal output. And so for me, faith has been limited to prayer time and whenever. Dealing with career path or education or just decisions that affect my. Where I invest my time. If it weren't for Joel, I would probably be practicing law. Something that's very black and white, and.

She'D be very intense.

There's a clear ladder to climb, so to speak. But Joel has really brought out the side of me that I think is lodged deep in there, but maybe got left with my childhood, this childlike faith, this idea that there are no limitations when our heart is to serve, when our heart is to do good and to listen for that very still, small voice and use our gifts and our talents to encourage others and pour into others. And that's. There is so much faith required if you are going to step into the music industry. In this line of work and having not grown up in it, I am very grateful to be in partnership with someone who allows me to borrow his belief when I run out of my own.

Oh, I love that.

Oh, that's real good.

So good. So good.

You should write a song about that, Mariah. That's good right there. Just.

That's a beautiful song right there.

Go listen to everything you said. Make it rhyme. That's a hit.

Do you need a cheerleader or a wide receiver, baby?

Hey.

No, it's definitely a good country song right there.

It really is. I mean, that's a profound thought. I mean, it's.

It really is.

It is.

Yes.

I love it. I love it.

It's beautiful. So what about you?

I would say, look behind all the kind of bravado and the wonky, confused accent on my behalf is a, you know, homeschooler for 11 of my 12 years of education. Didn't go to college, barely made it through high school. One of seven. Sort of grew up on the road. It was the only thing I knew, really. Slightly naive chap, at least when we. We met. And I remember we met when I was 27. Excuse me, 26. And she was 17.

Yes.

Just three months shy of her 18th birthday. And we started dating. And when I turned 27, which is interesting, I'm about to a few weeks away from turning 37, so this is very prominent in my mind just being the decade anniversary. It was the lowest moment of my life because as I mentioned, with living here and not really having a way forward, pursuing this band thing with my brother for was half a decade or so at that point, and it was going nowhere fast. And I had this one shining beacon of hope, and that was really Mariah and our relationship and our friendship and just feeling like I couldn't. There was no way I could marry her. There was no way we could move, like, just stuck. And I was pretty grumpy, if I remember, on my 27th birthday and I was having a Bit of a pity party. And I remember Mariah saying, you know, I just want to take you. One of my favorite places here is Wild Ginger. It's sort of an Asian fusion place, and said, oh, we got this dinner, you know, I want to take you to dinner tonight. And I was. I was kind of like, oh, okay, let's go. I'm such a loser. Why would you want to take me to dinner? And we rounded the corner, and it was everyone in my life that I cared about. My family, mentors, pastors, closest friends. And she, as you come to find, if you get to know her, she loves throwing parties and she loves celebrating. And I stood there and I just broke down, guys. I just wept. And that moment, for me, was very indicative of what she has been for me and, Lord willing, what I've been for her in the last 10 years. And that is, man, when no one else. When the chips are down and you look like a fool and no one else believes she will still and was and is still there. And say what you will about the institution of marriage and modern relationships and all of the questions that surround them, one of the greatest reasons and arguments I would give for the beauty of this kind of covenantal relationship is you just know that someone's got you back and that you've got a believer in you, and that gives you wings, man. That. And I think that was the whole intent, was for us to be able to, as humans in this beautiful partnership, to be able to rise and become the most sanctified, beautiful versions of ourselves. And again, we're still young in the whole process, but I see that, and I've seen that happening through the way she has so beautifully loved me, in spite of being the fumbly, stumbly, homeschooler, Australian, American.

Not that there's anything wrong with homeschooling.

There is not.

I'm a hater.

Hey, you homeschooled as well, so.

I love it. And, you know, you kind of touched on something where. When you guys met and you came from different backgrounds, and so, I mean, that was something you had to work through. And how's that been the last eight years? Because you said you're getting ready to celebrate your eighth wedding anniversary, right? Yes. So how's that been with the different. The different, you know, differences, Backgrounds, families.

Can you talk some about that on your podcast? Which is great to listen to, but from, you know, from your upbringing, Joel, in Australia, to being an La Latina, I mean, you guys come from two different worlds, and it's just really cool how you meld the best of those worlds together in your relationship. But what's that like, just coming from in a lot of ways, two different cultures.

Right.

And then, you know, making your own culture together. Like, how has that been?

I think one of the more unique aspects of our backgrounds is. And this might be cultural, it also might just have to do with our unique family dynamics. But in Hispanic culture, and particularly in my family, it's a very matriarchal kind of aesthetic.

It's.

There's a lot of loud, opinionated women. And, you know, I've got cousins who are detectives and police women and the leaders of their households. And for Joel, you know, he's one of seven kids. Five of those are men. And so I think we both carry a lot of bravado with us, and I think there have been times where that has been a clash, but there's also been times where I think we can actually empathize with one another a bit better, because we know what it's like to sound and look like you're 1000% sure, and you know what to do when on the inside you are dying and crumbling and very insecure. So we can call that out in one another. I think that's a learned practice, putting on that veneer of total confidence, and it's what's allowed us to lead in certain aspects of our lives individually. But when we're together, it's like, I know you're saying you're okay, but I'm pretty sure you're not okay, because I know what it's like to be. Be you. Yeah.

That's so awesome. I love that.

No, that is so good. And you two just bring out the best in each other. And just in the time that I had the privilege of hanging out with you guys in Israel, which was epic, and I.

Let me just say.

I mean, I feel so bad.

I'm so sad. I was supposed to go.

It's been a burning question for me over the last few years, and that is actually.

Where were you?

Yes.

Oh, you guys. I was supposed to go, and I. We had, I guess, chat up. We have four boys. Our youngest was, like, I think, maybe like, barely a toddler at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, It.

We prayed about it, and it just wasn't the right.

We were gonna both go.

Yeah.

And then she. We go everywhere together. I mean, we go to Walmart together. Like, we've never been apart as long as I was in that.

Yeah, that was the longest that.

That trip. But she said she really Just kind of. She said, listen, you've always wanted to go. I think you should. I feel like God's saying you should go. I'm gonna hold down the fort this time. And I felt torn about it. But, you know, we both kind of prayed and I went and I. It was grudgingly. I went, yeah, yeah.

Ashley, if it's any consolation, he looked like a wet, lost puppy at all times.

Yeah, I did. I had.

Well, you all said he was quiet and I was like, dave, quiet.

Well, when you're not there, I don't know what to do. I don't know who, like, I don't know what am I supposed to do with my hands? I don't know, like, where am I supposed to go? But now, like, you know, my street cred has gone way up because it's like, hang out with you guys. So when Mariah comes on the radio or we're watching, you know, we watched, you know, the priceless movie and Joel's winning an Oscar and she's like, you know, these people. I'm like, yeah, we changed clothes in the bathroom once in Israel. You know, it's no big deal.

He loves telling that story, so.

No, but it was wonderful to share that experience with you guys. It really, really was. The only regret is that I didn't get to share that experience with you because everything in life that I experienced that I can't share with her in real time. Just feel like I'm not fully experiencing it, you know, but it was still a wonderful, wonderful, life changing experience. And one day.

I'm so glad you went.

We're gonna go round two. We're gonna do round two.

That's right.

Reunion tour.

Seriously. And we're not gonna go unless you guys are gonna go. We're gonna all have to be on the same group.

It'd be epic. It would be so, so epic. But, you know, coming back to you guys, like, when you look ahead from where you are right now, because you both, I mean, you've accomplished so much. God has just, just shined on you guys and his favor is all over you. And you've used that for such good. You've just, you know, you've made the world a better place through your music, your art, your ministry, through everything that you guys do. But when you look way ahead, I mean, not like I know that you're always working on stuff, you know, always, always got stuff going on, but when you look like way ahead, like 50 years ahead, and you're, you're looking back on your Life. Like, what do you hope. What do you hope it looks like at that point, you know, beyond. You know, beyond all that, you know, you've. You've. You've created. But in terms of what do you want your legacy to have been about when you. When you get to that point?

I would love for you to answer this question.

Oh, sure. I love that you use the word legacy, Dave, because that's something that Joel and I have been talking a lot about. I think when it comes to music, it's very easy to get shortsighted, you know, for our goals to be about the record that we're working on, the streams that we get for a song that we just released. How many people can we reach? How many people can we. We get this to? And the intentions are good, you know, to serve people with songs that, you know, have helped us and can hopefully help others. But when you widen the lens, you realize how temporary that all is. I've recently been communicating a lot more with my grandparents and preparing for them to come to Nashville. I graduated from college last year, and because of COVID we didn't have a ceremony. So we're doing a makeshift ceremony where we're going to be honoring my grandparents. I'm going to hand them my diploma. They immigrated here from Mexico in their 20s. My grandfather gave up his passion for music. He was a touring trumpet player in a big band in Mexico, and he gave that up to come to America and to be a busboy, and then worked in a Levi's facility for 35 years until he retired. And so when I look at that, when I, you know, I think it's the parallax universe of what you're asking. You know, you're asking us to look 50 years ahead. I think sometimes the best way to answer that question is to look 50 years back.

Yeah, that's good.

And when I look at my grandparents and the sacrifices that they made for someone who didn't even exist yet, it makes me that much more determined to want to build a world and shape our culture in a way where it's going to benefit the generation that doesn't even exist yet. So that really changes our perspective. It changes my perspective as a. A female artist and producer and writer. You know, I want to widen the lane for women in music, particularly in this industry, and I think it just helps us think outside of ourselves and our very limited scope of things.

That's. Well said.

So good.

Beautiful. Yeah.

I mean, what an amazing story about your grandparents. That's just so awesome. And they have no idea. You're planning on doing that, on presenting that?

No. And even if they watch this interview, they don't speak English, so they wouldn't know.

That is just so cool. Oh, I love it. It's beautiful.

That's great. Yes.

You know, Dave mentioned about your music. We haven't even, like, talked that much about it. You guys, your music is just some of my very favorite. Okay. And I'm not just saying that because I'm, you know, doing this podcast with you. Like, seriously, it's constantly playing, you know, in my playlist, and I just love it so much. One of my very favorite songs is God Only Knows. And I love it when you both are on it. Like, it's just. Oh, my gosh. It's just beautiful. So thank you so much for the music that you made.

I love that you know that because that's a little. A little hidden gem in the song that all of those.

There's a kind of.

Oh, no. I knew it completely. I was like, oh, my gosh.

She seemed. Yeah, she's all about she. Actually, the only tattoo she has is both of your faces are tattooed on her back shoulder, which is a little weird. I think it's strange that you're that into it, but I am a fan. She's a big fan. It is.

That's it.

That's the picture. That's it.

That's it.

It's beautiful.

No, I just love it. And so I'd love for you guys to share kind of what's in the works, if you can. I know some stuff you can't share.

I want to hear Joel's answer. Oh, I'm sorry.

I didn't know if Joel was going to answer. Are you going to answer, Joel? I'm sorry, I wasn't giving you.

I'll give you a very short Take.

Us to the future.

Yes. I'm so sorry. We will talk about the music after we talk about the future legacy.

I just wanted to tag on what. What she said. Since you asked, Ashley, I think it's simply this. I heard the definition of basically sin or living, as we'll say, or mentor in the rhythm of the kingdom is the difference between whether your life is pushing outward or your life is pulling inward, that your motives are outward versus just centered on you and everything. Increasingly, it feels culturally, in this beautiful country that we live in and beyond is about you. It's, have it your way. Get your education, you know, do the job you love doing. And to her grandfather's credit and testimony, he worked in that Levi's shop for 35 years. And he loved. Wasn't his passion, but he chose to love it. I love that Soul Pixar film. When the barber is there and the guy's trying to figure out his purpose, which is such a thing for our generation. And the barber is just kind of like, man, I wanted to be a veterinarian, but my kid was sick and I ended up here. And I like. And it was. We put so much emphasis on these things, and I dare say we put so much emphasis on legacy, even our generation, that this simple mindset of how do I stay outwardly focused and don't turn inward and sort of start dying, if you will, but look to God, look to others as you love yourself. I just, I think is so pivotal, and I hope to button it up in 50 years from now that when we both. I will be much more decrepitated than she is because of my almost decade of seniority. But when she. When we look back, that we'll go, you know, we have done that throughout our life that we have looked at outward to our community, outward to other people, upward toward God, instead of just inward toward what our sort of fickle desires point us towards.

That's beautiful.

I mean, even what you both said, I hope people. I know they're leaning in, because it does. I think that we can all. We all need to think about that. How can we all, both individually and as a couple, live with, you know, upward and outward instead of inward? Because we do. We live in a culture that says it's all about you. And even, you know, this is a marriage podcast. So I just want to say this about marriage. You know, when we do that, when we get inwardly focused, it's terrible for our marriage, too. I mean, it's terrible for us, especially as Christians. I mean, that's what God calls us to do. But especially in our marriage, too. That's where you see people grow apart. So I love that you guys are both so wise beyond your years. You really are. And I love just the depth of what you're sharing with us.

There was a trip, Ashley, that we were on in Israel, and there was a pastor on the trip, and we basically just had five days gleaming all of his wisdom.

It's all that pastor day since that time.

Really? Yes. It was almost like in Star wars, like, once you meet Yoda. And it's kind of like I was.

Gonna say the same thing.

Well, I meant more of, like, my resemblance to Yoda than the wisdom. Like the height and the Wrinkles and the ears. It's kind of. Wow. No, not even close. But not the wisdom part. No, it was. I'm so thankful that God allowed our paths to intersect in the Holy Land, and they continue to intersect in cool ways like this. But before we let you go, because I literally could just talk to you guys forever. But I know that you've got, you know, you got worlds to change out there, and so I don't want to hold you up, but talk about the music. Yeah. Tell us what's coming. Tell people where they can find you.

I have to brag on my wife for just a sec because if you. I know some of you won't turn on, but most of you won't be watching. But if you are watching, you'll see right here behind is my wife's computer set up. And not only did she edit our entire Becoming Us podcast from that station right there, all six episodes, three hours plus hours of content.

And they're very well done.

Oh, yeah.

Very well done. Yes.

But she is also in the midst of editing. What? This visual musical piece. It's four songs that she wrote towards the beginning of last year on her own, produced them, and we shot it. We filmed it all at a rock quarry, just a location just a short way from here. And she's putting it all together. And, guys, it's beautiful on so many levels. It's very. The way I've just kind of defined it. You've got, you know, this corporate worship movement, but then I think there's a very real personal worship movement that is emerging, and it really pushes in that very personal contemplative. But all the hooks and her marvelous voice as well. So there's that.

And where can we get where and when? I'm just so excited.

I know. We're both so excited.

Stay tuned.

Stay tuned.

Like, stay tuned. Like, where would we stay tuned the most? Like Instagram? Like.

Yeah.

Awesome.

I'll share a release date as soon as.

As soon as we can. And tell people your Instagram handle in case they're not following.

In case they're not following.

Yeah, it's Mariah. Like the. Like the mountain in the Bible.

Yes.

M O R I A H. Smallbone.

Awesome.

She took my last name, guys. True love.

I love it.

No, I love it, guys. You two are the real deal. Thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing. Just to build the king, to live in the rhythm of the kingdom.

I love that.

I've never heard that. I love it.

I'm gonna steal that for sure, Jamie George.

That's a Jamie George quote.

Thank you, Jamie George. I'm gonna plagiarize it. Plagiarism within the kingdom isn't plagiarism. It's recycling for Jesus. So that's what we're gonna. We're gonna use that. But listen, guys, I love it. Guys, for all of you who are listening and watching on YouTube, wherever you're watching or listening this right now, look up Joel and Mariah. Not only is it some of the best music out there, and truly, truly, it is. And I thought that even before, long before I met them.

Yes, yes.

Even more so now, seeing their hearts up close, but can stay connected to what they're doing. You'll be blessed as a result. And guys, genuinely love you. Thank you for making time for this.

Hey, can we do your bumper on the way out?

Yes, please, please.

Okay. Do you want to do the.

With.

Are we pretending to be them?

No. Oh, yes, let's pretend to be them.

If there's ever a movie about me, please play me.

Oh, my goodness.

Because we are actors and actresses playing the two of you.

Yeah.

I love it.

This is great casting.

Hey, everyone, this is Dave and I'm Ashley Willis. And this is the Naked Marriage podcast.

Featuring Joel and Mariah Smallbone.

Smallbone. How about that for a last name?

That is epic.

Oh, my goodness. Just for you guys, it was beautiful. That's so much. So much better than I am in real life.

Form of flattery.

You're right.

I love it.

And just to close it out, speaking of imitation, the greatest form of flattery there was on our last night in Israel at some obscure restaurant in downtown Jerusalem. Dave and I went into that bathroom, switched clothes.

We did. I wanted your earrings, which you would.

Not give from a glass or two. You imitated me to the obnoxious tea that I deserve to be imitated.

So you get your guest dessert.

This is a repaying for all those years.

I think one of my lines was because you had a scarf on. Like, for most of the trip, despite the warmth, there was a scarf, and I made mention of the scarf, and I was like, I wear a scarf all the time because my throat and voice are a national treasure in two different countries, and it must remain protected. I'll have to keep it warm. I don't know. I don't. I think that's something that I said.

No, that was it. That was it. But you were swinging the scarf around.

Very fumbling.

But, you know, once I put that scarf on, I got it. I wanted a scarf, like I was making fun of it, but secretly I thought, he's onto something. This feels amazing. I feel confident in the way I look. My throat is warm. I'm gonna go home and just start wearing scarves. And if I was cool enough to pull it off, I would.

You know, it hasn't happened yet, but I think we need to.

Just around the house sometimes. Just around the house?

Yes.

Not in public yet.

You guys are a gift.

You guys are great.

We love you. Thanks again. We'll see you soon.

Thank you, guys.

Bye.

Bye.