How Trust Can Be Rebuilt | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hey friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we uncover God's design for lifelong love. And if you haven't done so already, I want to make sure that we get our— a free resource in your device. You can get the link in the show notes. This resource is called our 31-Day Marriage Devotional, and it's a small and short way to make a huge impact in your marriage. 31 days, just give it 31 days You said it's a couple minutes a day, but that time can really have a big impact.

And we've received great feedback on this. Again, it costs you nothing. You can find that link in the show notes like Ashley said, but take time to do this. It really will, I think, create some great conversations in your marriage. Friends, you're here for a very important episode today talking about how to have a naked marriage as it relates to building and rebuilding trust. Before we dive in, I will say that if you're only listening to this episode and not watching, you're missing out because Ashley is wearing an adorable hat. It's so cute. It's giving me— I'm having a hard time concentrating today because of her outfit. So, you know, I just— you're looking extra smoking hot and cute.

Well, I just love that you love hats. When we first met, I was wearing a hat. You were. It stuck with you. So it did.

Caught my eye.

I got to put a hat on a lot.

It's not all that caught my eye, but I did notice the hat. Well, friends, we're so glad you're here. It's going to be a great episode. So let's dive in. And they were both naked, the man and his wife. And we're not ashamed.

Well, this episode is probably a heavier one because we're gonna be talking about rebuilding trust. And when it comes to living out the naked marriage, trust is definitely at the core of being able to live a naked marriage. Because, you know, we talk about how we're, you know, not supposed to have any secrets in marriage and we need to be transparent and vulnerable and honest. And when trust is broken, you know, that can be really hard. And it's like, you know, I've heard many describe it as like a bomb, you know, like a bomb going off in your relationship.

Yeah, and a marriage can't survive without trust.

Yeah.

And a lot of couples live with this baseline of trust that's just not as high as it should be, where it's like they, there maybe hasn't been some massive infraction, like an affair or something, but there's just been, there's been a pattern of secrets on both sides of, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna spend this money he doesn't know about. I'm gonna do this thing she doesn't know about. And this can just be my thing and she doesn't need to know, he doesn't need to know. And the more you do that, the more of a wedge, a big invisible wedge you're inviting in into the marriage. And for you to have a naked marriage, which is the goal, it should be the goal for all of us, that total trust, total transparency, no secrets, you gotta commit to that. And it can seem scary to get that vulnerable at first, but that's the only way a marriage can really thrive. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about how to get there, how to get back there if you've maybe had it at one time and then lost it because of some decisions. And I hope it's filled with hope, even though this, like Ashley said, is potentially a heavier episode because the things that break trust usually are heavy things. It's also a hope-filled episode and hopefully it will be really practical.

That's right. And so, you know, building trust just out of the, out of the gate, you know, in marriage, I think that there are certain behaviors that can be in place, right? And with that, you know, you have the things that you do that you wanna keep on doing to build that trust, but also the things that you don't do and to break the trust, right? And so what would you say are some of those things, those kind of rhythms of life and behaviors that a couple can do to build trust and to keep trust?

Yeah, well, there's really one main ingredient to build trust and it's, it's consistency.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we, we say the quote a lot 'cause I love it, but Jimmy Evans says, trust is built in drops and lost in buckets. So you can dump out a bucketload of trust with one decision, right? You can only build trust one drop at a time of saying, I'm gonna be consistent, I'm gonna be steady, I'm gonna be transparent, I'm gonna hide nothing from you. And the equation is basically, Action plus consistency plus transparency over time equals trust. Now, the one time where that might not work is when one spouse has real trust issues that have nothing to do with their spouse. And I think that's important to address because what we've seen often is you might come into marriage, let's say you're a wife, You grew up in a home where your dad was your hero. Your dad ended up cheating on your mom and leaving the family. And that wound you carry into marriage. And now you apply your father's infraction to your husband. And no matter what your husband does to try to earn your trust or keep your trust, you're always putting him through tests. You're always, you know, looking, believing the worst because you thought, well, if my dad could do this, then anybody can do this. And we've known several close friends who that's their exact dynamic that they've had to work through and realize, separate the wound of the father from the actions of the husband. And so you just need to be aware of kind of your own, like, why am I having such a hard time trusting? Is it because my spouse is untrustworthy or is it because I'm creating impossible standards for them based on my own wounds, right?

And I think, like you said, putting them through tests. Like, I remember we had friends years ago where this was happening. They'd been married a while, and it was like the husband just felt like no matter what, he was somehow missing something, like, all the time, and disappointing his wife all the time, but not really knowing what that mark is. And we ended up, you know, sitting down with them, and they were kind of sharing this about themselves, and You know, eventually kind of through that conversation, she realized it goes all the way back to something her husband didn't even do, and that she was really kind of waiting for the shoe to drop, right? For the other shoe to drop and him to break her heart just like her dad did. And so that's why she was really subconsciously putting him through these tests, right? And it was like once they recognized that, she would stop herself from doing that. Now, in the same way, you know, we told Or, you know, in that same conversation, we told the husband, and you know, this doesn't just let you off the hook, right? You still have to be an upstanding man and build her trust and just know that this is an extra sensitive area for her. And so make sure you go out of your way to show her that you are an upstanding man and that she can trust you. And it's just being sensitive to some of those wounds that maybe we didn't create, but they're wounds that are still healing and just having, having compassion for each other and knowing that we're all works in progress, right? And sometimes, you know, there are things there that we didn't create, but we just need to be sensitive to them. We don't need to like pay the price for them, you know, per se. And we don't need to make our spouse pay the price for them and say things like, well, this is just who I am, you're gonna have to work harder. I mean, nothing like that. But we do need to be sensitive. And with that couple in particular, that wife did the inner work that needed to happen. I mean, she went and sought a counselor. She ended up becoming a counselor herself through it, you know? And it really ended up inspiring her to actually help others who have those wounds. And that pastor has really done a great job, 'cause her husband is actually a pastor. He did a great job of doing his part to make sure that trust is rock solid in their relationship. And they've been married a long time. We just actually saw them not too long ago, and they're doing really well.

Yeah, they are.

And so you can get through these tough situations, but it takes one of you, we say this all the time, but it takes one of you, you know, kind of ripping the bandaid off and saying, hey, what's going on here? I love you, but I sense that it's like I never can do right by you, and I don't know why. Can you tell me what's going on? Have I done something, or is there something I need to do that I'm not doing? Or, you know, if it's you and you know you have that wound, go ahead and have a conversation with your spouse about it and say, you know what, my parents dealt with infidelity, and I just have this fear, this deep, deep fear that that's just gonna be us one day. And so I think I've been, assuming that's gonna happen and really kind of putting you through the wringer. And I need to stop doing this. Will you help me navigate this? And will you help me get the help I need to get to heal from this? You know, we need to have those kind of naked conversations, as we like to call them. And those aren't easy.

They're not easy. No, it's not. It's real. And having a naked marriage requires being very real and very vulnerable. It also requires recognizing something we say often is, forgiveness and trust are two different things.

Yes.

So you don't, it's not reasonable to just automatically give trust when untrustworthy behavior keeps happening.

Right.

You can give forgiveness automatically because grace is not earned, it's given freely. God models this for us by giving us his grace when we're at our worst. Jesus died for us, paid the price. So we receive that grace and we give that grace to one another. But trust is something that is different. It has to be earned. It has to be earned through consistency and action. And I feel like the Bible gives us a template and a roadmap for how to get to trust if we just have a hard time trusting in general. And the first step is to trust God. Because if you don't have your full trust in God, and I think if you have trust issues, if you were honest about it, even if you're a person of faith, even if you're a Christian, there are probably times when you don't fully trust God. You pray, He doesn't answer the prayer as fast as you'd want to. You know, we expect God to be like Amazon Prime, like, I'm going to pray for this, Lord. And if it's not here in 2 days or less, then you failed and I'm going to take it back and I'm going to do it my own way. And God's timing, of course, doesn't work like that. And we have things that don't work out and we think, well, why would God allow that to happen? And we just kind of put guards up everywhere, even with God. And so the first step is letting your heart get to a place where you can trust the Lord. Because God is so trustworthy. He loves you. He is for you. He'll never let you down. He might do things differently than you would do. You might still experience pain and hardship because Jesus experienced a lot of pain and hardship, and that's just part of life, but you'll never face it alone. So one of our favorite verses, a passage that we write when we're signing books often, is Proverbs 3:5-6. And when you look those verses up, it says, trust in the Lord with all your heart, Don't lean on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him or submit to him, and he will direct your paths. And that's the roadmap. It's you choose to trust God because he is so trustworthy. He is the only one who's perfect, and his word is always true. His promises always endure. And the more we trust him, the more healing we're going to get. And we trust him by just saying, Lord, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna let go of this worry. I'm gonna let go of this, all this, this worry, which comes from me trying to do things on my own. And I'm gonna give that over to you to recognize you're in control. It's like a story I heard about this old guy that flew on a plane for the first time, and he was so nervous about it. And when he finally landed, he was all sweaty and he stumbled off the plane. And his kids asked him, Dad, how was your flight? And he said, well, I never put my full weight down on that seat. And a lot of us go through life never putting our full weight down on God. We're like kind of halfway there, but we're like, Lord, I don't want to fully lean back in you because that feels vulnerable. But God wants you to be vulnerable with him. Like he wants you to just lay it in his rest, in his peace, allowing him to hold you and carry you, allowing you to experience the healing from the wounds that you've endured. And as you trust in him, that's going to help you, you know, just find the healing you need so that you can build trust in other people, trust in yourself, trust in your own judgment, trust in your spouse. And it's something that doesn't get talked about enough in this conversation, I feel like, is until we can fully trust God, I don't think we can fully trust— we can trust a person. If we can't fully trust a perfect God, We're never gonna experience trust with an imperfect person. And so start there.

It's so true. And I think trusting God requires surrender. Yeah. We've talked a little bit about surrender and surrender seems kind of elusive and mysterious to us, but I think really it's just coming to God open-handed and saying, God, I give my life to you. I trust my life to you. And I know you are a good God. I've heard one of my favorite, speakers is Lisa TerKeurst, and she says, you know, and she's been through a lot in her life. Like she has a lot of books on how do you trust God. In fact, if you're looking for a great resource on, you know, how do I trust God in the aftermath of total chaos and even infidelity, or when things just go sideways and you didn't cause those things, but they did, they went sideways nonetheless, she has some great resources on this. But one of my favorite things she says is, God is a good God, 'God is good at being God, and God is good to me.' And she said through all those hard seasons she went through, that she just was trusting him. And she would say that out loud to remind herself that even when people are letting you down and you can't trust them anymore, or you feel like, man, I'm going through this cancer battle, I don't know what my body is doing, like I don't know if these treatments are working, whatever it is, Whatever battle you're going through, really trusting God and knowing that he is still good in the midst of it can help you get through those really hard times. But with knowing he is good and trusting him requires that surrender and knowing that he sees the bigger picture and he's gonna bring all this together for our good and for his glory. And I know when you're in the midst of something where your trust has been broken, especially in your marriage, it's really hard to fully accept that and believe that. But one of my favorite verses in the Bible is when there's a man and he's asked Jesus, he's like, "Can you heal my child?" And Jesus looks at him and he says, "Do you believe that I can heal this child?" And he said, "I believe, but Lord, help my unbelief." And I love that verse because it's the most human reaction ever. Yeah, it's so good. And that's in the Bible. And you know what? Jesus healed his child. So sometimes you just have to say, "Lord, I believe, I trust in you, but help that little bit of me that isn't all the way there, that is so human that I can't fully surrender. But Lord, I do, I'm giving my life to you anyway." And he hears you, and he is with you, and he knows, you know, he knows the pain that you're in. It's not like he's denying the fact that you're going through hard times, but we live in a fallen world, and we are gonna have times when people let us down. And I think trusting that God is still good in the midst of it and will make, good out of this somehow in His own time, in His own timing, and in His ways, that can get you through those hard times. Talking about trust, we wanna share kind of from our own testimony, 'cause this is something that we are familiar with, and we know what it's like when trust is broken. And I know we've talked a lot about this in years past on the podcast, but for those of you who are maybe new to the podcast, or maybe just need a refresher on a little bit of our story, Dave has mentioned through this series that early in our marriage, he had this undisclosed porn issue.

Right.

And that you've described it at certain times was maybe an addiction because it was something you kept going back to.

Yeah, yeah. I think that it's fair to call it that. And having to treat it like an addiction. Later today, we're gonna interview our friend Eric Kennedy, part of the XO family and has a podcast called Recovery Val, which is great. For addiction, and he's been sober from alcohol for many years and helps others through different addiction. But really the process of looking at an addiction, whether it's to alcohol or drugs or something like pornography, I feel like the healing process is similar for all of them. And we talk about this in other areas too, but to kind of give you the quick recap, I'd carried this secret sin. And so I was not only having the sin of pornography, which itself is a, is a sin. Lust, I mean, all of it. But I was also bringing the sin of secrecy into our marriage. And so that those two sins, which went hand in hand, caused a lot of broken trust when it finally came out, because I didn't have the courage at the time to confess it. Ashley found on our old computer where I'd been looking— this was before the days of smartphones and all of that. Now it's, you know, temptations are even more ubiquitous. But back then it took a little more effort. And so it was on this desktop computer. She found it, was just shocked.

And I wasn't looking for it.

No, she wasn't spying on me. Or I mean, even though she had every right to, it just popped up and all these sites, all these searches, all these terrible images, just she was exposed to that. And I hate that and I grieve that, that she was confronted with my sin in a way that now is impacting her in that way. And so that was a messy process of trying to rebuild her trust. And I'm so thankful it came out. Once something comes out, it has way less power over you. So that put us on a path to healing, but it was still a messy process because I had lived in this secret sin for so long. It had worked my own thinking, it had created patterns of deceit. And there was also still the hooks of that addiction in me. There was at least one relapse. In those early months, which reset the whole process of rebuilding trust. And, um, but over time, it was transparency. It was, it was putting, um, boundaries in place that would really help. It was limiting my own use of technology for a time. And it was just consistency of like every day, um, you know, checking in every day, watching where my eyes went, and Little by little, so those negative habits really started to break, and Ashley walked with me through that journey showing so much grace, and I'm so thankful for that. So Jesus and Ashley are the heroes of that story. And then now to look back and be many years free from it, I'm so thankful for the freedom on the other side, you know, and when you're in the midst of any kind of an addiction or toxic behavioral cycle. You just feel like, man, this is who I am. This is all I'm ever going to be. I'll never be free of this. And that's a lie. That's a lie of the enemy. Jesus said, I've come to give you a full and abundant life. He's come to give you freedom and peace, and he wants to give you those things, and he can give you those things. So we were able to move forward, and Ashley, through her grace, extended me trust along the way. And gave me the grace to believe the best in me, even when I was having trouble to believe the best in me. And we came through that. We'd never wanna relive that, but I would say we came through that whole thing stronger as a result. And so I'm thankful for that part.

I am too. And you know, it was, whenever we share this, we share this a lot when we are speaking at churches, doing like marriage conferences. And every time afterwards, I always have wives come up to me and they say, how in the world did you ever look at Dave the same? "how were you ever intimate with him again? I mean, 'cause now you have those images where he was looking in your mind, and don't you feel like you're comparing yourself to these faulty images that aren't even really real?" And I always say like, yes, I had all those questions and all those feelings. I mean, I was shocked, sad, disgusted, just mad, you know, like all of the feelings when I found that, but I knew that if I stayed there, I wasn't gonna move forward either. And I was gonna make it harder for Dave to move forward. And you know, I did for a little bit have kind of my pride puff up and try to convince me, you know what, how dare Dave do this? You would never do this to him. Like you would never betray him in this way or any way. And just really puffing myself up. And very quickly the Holy Spirit brought me back down to earth and was like, hey, maybe porn's not your issue, but you are not perfect by any stretch, and you need Jesus every day. And that kept me at a place of humility. And I had to choose that, you know, 'cause, you know, as human beings, we wanna make them hurt how we hurt. We wanna be like, I'm better than you, you know? And I just knew that that wasn't true, first and foremost, but also me having that kind of posture wasn't gonna help things. And so I just encourage anybody, you know, if you're a wife where your husband, maybe after listening to this, is like, wow, that's me, I'm Dave, you know? I feel helpless, and I'm so sorry, and I'm disgusted with myself. I just encourage you, listen to him, you know, listen to your spouse's confession, and resist the urge to, to want to just yell at them and punish them and all the things that we in our human nature want to do, and really give that to the Lord, right? Give that to God. He can handle it. You know, you can lament even the fact that this happened. I mean, there's lament in the Bible, and I feel like it's no mistake that's in there because it's part of our human condition, and we need to do that. We can't just stuff it down. We to process these feelings. But I know for me, um, I ended up going to therapy, which really helped, um, in the aftermath of this. Dave, actually, uh, at that time, I think you were part of a group, like an online, um, group that helped people recover from porn. Like we've always said on this podcast, healing doesn't happen apart from being in relationship with other people. It happens in the context of community. And so you need people to help you through this. And, um, You know, for us, it required, you know, talking to people who had been there, who can tell us like, here's what helped me in having accountability. Like we have, till this day, we have accountability software on our devices. We've used several different ones over the years. Covenant Eyes is great. Ever Accountable is great. Canopy, Qustodio, which is spelled with a Q, all of those are very effective. And there's many others we probably don't even know about that are effective. But it's really good not only to have on your kids' devices, I highly encourage you to have it on your kids' devices, but also on yours. It's a great accountability tool that not only blocks these kind of images, but also will send an email if you try to look. If you try to look up something that's pornographic, it'll send an email to either each other, if that's what you would like. Some couples are like, "No, that's too much." But you could send it to a trusted friend. I know Dave does that for several guys. Yeah. And it's helpful.

I'm honored to be an accountability partner for them. And we need each other. You know, we need each other. And iron sharpens iron. We gotta keep each other sharp. We gotta ask hard questions of each other. We need friends in our lives. Who have permission to do that for us, we can do the same for them. Otherwise, you know, Satan creeps in when we're in isolation. And so don't stay in isolation. Don't stay hidden in the dark. You gotta bring stuff out into the light.

Absolutely. And another question I often get is, well, how long did you not have sex? You know, 'cause you know, when there's a sexual betrayal of any kind, of course you're not just gonna jump right back into the bedroom and you don't feel inclined to when your spouse breaks your heart like that. And so there was, a time where we, we weren't, you know, engaging in sex, just as, as you were trying to start that, that, that journey to sobriety from porn, but also as I was coping with a lot of those feelings. But we didn't allow that to just linger on, you know, like just to keep on going for a long time, because like we talked about in a previous episode, it's really important that we don't, um, you know, it says, you know, there's a time where you can abstain from sex to devote yourselves to prayer and fasting, but don't let that linger on too long because it can really cause you to have disconnection and misunderstanding and a whole host of issues. And so we, you know, after that time, which I can't even remember how long, people ask me and I'm like, I don't remember. It wasn't super long.

It wasn't though. And she very mercifully and gracefully recognized like, yeah, I don't want this to become a punishment.

Right.

I don't want this to become a wedge between us.

Or a reward.

Or yeah, or reward. I want us to be connected, mind, body, and soul, right? In every way as a couple. And sex is an important part of that. And even though that we're working through these issues, she, you know, she made sure that that was a priority relatively quickly, faster than I was expecting. And that meant a lot to me because I realized, okay, this for her, like, this is an act of courage and grace right now. While she herself is still wounded. And I wanna be really tender with her heart as we move forward. And so it's gonna look different in different ways. We have a past episode on sexual addiction where we did an interview with a great counselor who kind of specializes in this. And he gave some really good insights about like the time period and what's kind of what's appropriate and what's helpful. And that was a meaningful episode as well. If you're looking for something a little more concrete on that.

Absolutely. But again, it helps to reach out for help and have somebody help you walk through this, like a Christian counselor, a pastor, maybe join a group, you know, with things like, I think Ever Accountable, I think has groups if I'm remembering correctly. Just something to keep you accountable as you're walking through this and wanting to stay free from porn, 'cause there's no place for that, right, in your life. I mean, it's a virtual form of infidelity with your eyes. It is. It is. Before we go to our question, I know that some of you are like, okay, I get that you, you know, you guys walk through, um, you know, sexual betrayal with porn, but what about, you know, physical infidelity? Like, that's— I know that's on their minds. And, you know, we have walked through that with other people. And, um, I right now, I see, you know, I have a lot of counselees who've walked through this, and, um, on both sides of it, like, I I'll see a couple that's walking through it together. I'll meet with an individual person who's been betrayed by their spouse, but I've also counseled people who have had an affair.

Yeah.

And they're trying to come to grips with that. And so, again, you have to reach out for help. You are not going to get through this on your own. If you've walked through an affair, I highly suggest sooner rather than later going to affairrecovery.com. This is a Christian ministry that is run by people who've been there, and they have support groups whether you're both the one who committed adultery and the one who was betrayed. And they have groups for the two of you. So you've gotta get help, go to a Christian counselor. You don't have to walk through this alone. And in fact, I don't think you'll get through it by walking through it alone, but you need trusted people who will not only point you back to God and know that he still has a good plan for you and can get you through this, but also they can give you those practical steps and the support and accountability to help you walk through this. But I wanna say this, you know, If you're watching this and this is not part of your story, don't ever let it be part of your story.

Please.

Go out of your way. I mean, I tell Dave, don't I say this all the time? I said, I wish everyone could sit in a counseling session with a couple or an individual who has experienced walking through that because they would never ever even give the enemy an inch to allow that happen in their marriage. 'Cause like I've said before, I don't believe anyone, wakes up and thinks, oh, I just want to go sleep with someone else and just break my spouse's heart and hurt my family. I know that this happens very— it's just little by little, right? Yeah.

And one little bad decision after another until these massive bad decisions are being made.

Right.

And that— oh my goodness. Yeah. The pay on the other side of it, like you said, if people could see what it really looks like, the devastation is—

It's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking.

But even in the devastation, if that is your story, you know that God still loves you and he has a good plan for you. And this is gonna be a rocky road and it's gonna be painful as you try to regain your spouse's trust or as you try to allow your spouse to regain your trust. But if you truly give this to God and you truly humble yourselves before him and put boundaries in place that you know need to be in place for you all to move forward together, You can get through this. You know, technically, I have to mention this. I mean, technically, if you really feel compelled to leave, you have the ability to leave. I mean, your spouse has broken the vow. But if there's any part of you that wants to fight for this marriage, that's a good fight. And if your spouse is truly repentant and willing to do what they can to regain your trust, that's a good fight.

Absolutely.

And we here at XO Marriage, we wanna join you in that fight. And so please reach out. Do a course together. If you need to go to an intensive, which we think is a wonderful next step because you get like 2 months worth of counseling in a short amount of time, and it gives you that boost to move forward, and there'll still be work to follow, but it gives you a big boost, please reach out to one of our XO Marriage coaches. You can go to xomarriage.com. You can do an intensive that is a half day, a full day, or 2 days. You might even, you know, just check out those courses too. Like, there's so many different ways that you can, give yourself some hope and some next steps. And so please don't delay. I know sometimes you just wanna bury your head in the sand 'cause it's just so painful, but it's important to reach out for help. And I really encourage the person who betrayed to be the one who's spearheading this 'cause you need to show your spouse that you're willing to do whatever it takes. But reach out, go to exomarriage.com for more information.

So good, so good. Well, friends, we're gonna pivot to the question of the day. Thank you as always for those who send in questions. You can send a question to us a number of ways. You can write us on Instagram @DaveAndAshleyWillis or go to nakedmarriagepodcast.com and your question just might end up on the air. Today's question is this: What do you do if your spouse doesn't want counseling? My husband talks to me harshly sometimes and I feel I need to walk on eggshells. My 2-year-old picks up on it and even told his dad to get out of the room this morning.

Oh man.

I bring up counseling and he says no. I tell him I don't want to be talked to like this, but I don't see a path.

Forward.

Looking back, I can see the red flags in our dating life, but I made the choice to marry him, and I do love him and care about him. You know, what do you do in that kind of situation? That's really— that is tough, because this is a man that clearly, uh, he's doing some toxic behavior. You know, my own father grew up in a home like this. Everybody had to walk on eggshells because of the father, and that father's really abusive language. It created this toxic environment that even now, even, you know, just decades later, decades after that father's death, there's still the aftermath of that pain is so harsh. So for this dad, for any dad, your words matter so much. Your words can become the inner monologue of your kids' voices. They grow up, you're either building them up or tearing them down. The power of your words The power of a father's words in particular, it is just so crucial. And words are breaking your wife's heart. We need to speak with tenderness and love and care. And if he's not doing those things and there's this pattern, you've got to wake up and realize as a man that you're betraying the sacred trust of your family and you're not doing the things a husband and father are called to do. And it's probably coming from brokenness inside of you. Uh, so get the help you need. Talk to a counselor. Um, it sounds like you might also be battling depression, because depression in women can look like sadness. In men, it tends to look like anger. So get on an antidepressant, perhaps talk to a doctor. But you're also going to have to do the, the inner healing work. Pastor Jimmy Evans has a great 21-day course. It's a short program that could have a big impact called 21 Days to Inner Healing. You can find that at xonow.com. But for this wife in particular, when, you know, those are all things for the husband, what does the wife do in this situation?

Man, I think that, you know, it's easy to want to just walk on those eggshells and just not rock the boat because you're like, well, it's going to be so much worse, but it's just going to keep on happening and you're going to grow much, much more resentful. And I think the fact that your 2-year-old is picking up on this is just like a flashing light on the dashboard of your marriage. And so I, I think it— you've got to tell them, listen, I, you know, I know you don't want to go to counseling right now, but something's got to give here. I can tell that you're upset. Our 2-year-old is getting upset and asking you to leave the room. I feel like, you know, this just isn't— this isn't working well. So if you won't go to counseling, what will you do? Would you go to an intensive where we just invest half a day and talk to a counselor that way? Because maybe just thinking about meeting someone week after week just seems daunting to him. Will you join a group at church where we can talk about marriage? Because I know we're not the only ones who deal with issues. Like, what will you do? Because we've got to do something, 'cause you are hurting my heart and you're hurting our child's heart. And I know you don't wanna do that. Like, give him the benefit of the doubt. I know you don't wanna do that. I know you don't wanna speak death over us. I mean, I don't know if this man's a Christian. I hope he is. But I would even, I would say that, I would say, listen, like, our words, you know, and use the word our, don't say your, you know, use the word our because it applies to all of us. Our words are so powerful, and I want us in our home to speak words of life and not words of death. And right now it just feels like, um, there's a lot of, of just heaviness and words of death flowing in this home. And so we need help. Like, just say we need help. So if you won't go to counseling, what, what are you willing to do? And I would even encourage you as a wife you go to counseling. And then sometimes what happens, and I've seen this in my own practice, is sometimes one spouse will go and benefit from the counseling, and you learn, you know, how to show up differently and advocate for yourself in a loving way in your relationship, and that can turn things around. But also, you can tell your husband the benefits you are gaining from counseling, and that sometimes can make a spouse be like curious, like, oh, you know, maybe this actually could be a good thing. Because even you showing up differently, which Anytime somebody changes something, the dynamic in a marriage, it's a little clunky at first, and there might be some pushback. But you start speaking those words of life, you start calling out the good that you know is deep inside your husband, and showing up differently but still setting a boundary for not allowing these words of death to flow, he might really be curious as to the benefits he could actually have too. Because like Dave said, odds are he really needs a counselor individually to work through some of these things that need to be healed inside himself, and, and really are probably the reason why he's showing up in such a negative light. And so I would encourage you to reach out and talk to a counselor. If you want to get a counselor in person in your area, go to aacc.net. They have vetted counselors on their list. If you would like to talk to one online, I am a counselor and mental health and marriage coach. You can go to ashleywillis.net and go to the coaching, um, side of that website. But whatever you do, I would encourage you to get some support because these things are hard. I mean, it sounds like this has been going on a long time, and so it's not going to be healed overnight, but you definitely can gain some tools and insight as to how it can get better.

So good. And our prayers are with you and for all who are in a situation like that. And thank you so much for tuning in to the Naked Marriage podcast. Do us a favor, hit subscribe if you haven't already. As always, you can go to exomarriage.com for the latest resources from this ministry, and we hope today's episode has been an encouragement to you. Can't wait to see you next time. Bye, friends.