Inviting God into Your Marriage (and Arguments) with Josh & Johanna Chumley | Dave & Ashley Willis

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we uncover God's design for lifelong love. And you guys, we have a very special couple that we're going to be interviewing today, and Dave is going to tell you all about them.

Yeah, we are honored to be hosting Josh and Joanna Chumlee. They're the Dream Marriage Pastors, the marriage ministry leaders of Dream City Church, which is just a dynamic, amazing church that has impact and influence all over the world. And in fact, we're going to be doing— Ashley and I are going to be doing a one-day marriage conference with them, with the Chumlees. Yes, uh, at Dream City Church on Saturday, May 2nd. And all the information about that is on their church website, which is dreamcitychurch.us. It's going to be a fun day. If you're in the Phoenix area, come out and hang out with this, uh, but we're going to talk today, uh, about a lot of great stuff. And so you have picked a great day to be on the Naked Marriage Podcast. Joining us all the way from sunny Phoenix, Arizona, Josh and Joanna. Welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast.

Hey everybody.

Yes, man, it's so good to see you guys. And hey, before, uh, we dive into anything else, we always love to ask couples at the beginning to tell us their love story, like how you met, like your origin story. So rewind the clock, uh, and, and tell us how this, uh, this all started.

Yes, sure.

So we went to Lee University in Cleveland, Tennessee, just north of Chattanooga. And so we met there a couple of years in. Joanna had just gotten back from an excursion overseas with Lee, and so met her over the summer. And then, um, I pursued her very heavily. I am a romantic, and she didn't know what to do with that. You know, I was getting on one knee with her little sorority ring, and, you know, all the, all the things that—

all the things, all the things.

And then, uh, Yeah, we, how long were we dating and engaged?

We dated about a year and then we got engaged and then were engaged a little less than a year. So it was around Christmas time. Then we got married in September. So we both knew we wanted to try to finish school, get to graduation, you know, at least have our degrees. So I had graduated in May, he graduated in December, we got married in September. So right in the middle of the two graduations and we thought that was a good compromise.

And Joanna wasn't the typical female elite. Most of them were there to get an MRS degree. Oh yes, she actually wanted to get a degree in teaching. And so I had an epic proposal. We just actually talked about that on Sunday at the church. Yeah, briefly.

Please tell real quick.

Okay, so we went to downtown Chattanooga to have some dinner, have a nice dinner, and he took me up to this bridge that's right in downtown. Uh, it was nighttime, there's a light drizzle, you know, the rain's coming down and not too heavy, just, you know, atmosphere. And, uh, yeah, box of a dozen red roses. And on each rose was a little tag that had a word printed on it, um, some aspect of my character, something about my personality, something that he loved. And so he took out each rose and talked about it and talked about how special I was. And then there was one additional rose, one white rose, uh, and that one had a little tag that said purity. And that, you know, was the most significant piece. And he had nestled the ring right down inside the rose, so it was—

oh man, wow, smooth, Josh, right? That's like, it's like a Hallmark movie proposal.

It is.

So all the guys listening right now feel like losers, like, oh man, I, I, uh, our last guest, and we love them, they literally— the proposal happened at a gas station, which is—

I would have preferred that. I didn't know what to do.

Romance.

I was like, this is too much to listen to.

I, I love it. I love the gas station one too, like The Office episode. But I love— man, the roses, the— I mean, that's, that's smooth.

That would be hard to nestle it.

Yes.

And I didn't drop it, so no, it didn't get lost.

I'm impressed.

Incredible. Oh, that's so special.

And how long have you been married?

We've been married almost 25 years, so 25 years. Yeah, September. We got married 2 weeks after 9/11, and we got married outside of DC, so our guest list went from this to to this.

Oh man.

Oh wow. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. We were an '01 marriage too, but thankfully we were on the May of 2001 before, before 9/11. But so yeah, we're right there the same. And shout out to Lee University. Go Flames. We have a, we got a lot of friends. Many, many friends that we did not go there, but we have a lot of friends who do and think the world of that university. So yeah, check it out. So Now you got, how long have you been at Dream City Church?

5 years.

Awesome.

5 years.

Awesome.

And I'd love to talk some just about marriage ministry in churches and what you're learning as marriage pastors, what you're learning and what other churches could do. 'Cause you know, not every church of course has the size or the staff or the resources of a church like Dream City, but Every church of every size should have some kind of marriage focus, 'cause the stronger your marriages are, stronger your families are. Everything benefits when we focus on marriage, and churches are getting that, which is great. But since you guys are in this world, what are you learning about marriage by ministering to marriages? And what do you think other churches could do to better help married couples in their own churches?

Yeah, I really, to back into that question, I just wanna give God all the praise and glory for a church like this that has been decades of marriage ministry. So we're stepping—

yeah, pioneers—

generational blessing of people that have led marriage at this church. So it's, it is organic, it's in the culture. Now, it still doesn't make it easy, uh, you know, convincing people to come to our discipleship class every Sunday. They're like, well, my marriage isn't broken, why should I be there? And, you know, why wait to get an oil change? But, you know, you're going to wait for your car to break down. And so By stepping in, that doesn't matter the size of church. What matters is, do you have a real culture that promotes not just for married couples? We invite singles into the group. We invite people that have been widowed or divorced. Like, this is about going deep. And I think most churches are not sure how to disciple the people. And so by offering this on a weekly basis, we rarely take breaks. So we probably go 40 7 Sundays in the year. What's unique about— and we stepped into this from our mentors that retired— where every week we have a lesson and we do fill-in-the-blanks. Literally, there's blanks that people fill out while we're preaching and teaching, and we're reading the lesson, but we're teaching into it. And while they're writing it, they're getting it, right? They're not just hearing us. And we have tables where everyone's building community at each of these tables. We have breakfast, you know, that's there for them. And then honestly, we're I'm just so grateful for our volunteer leaders. Yeah, we have 19 couples that show up week after week that are facilitating these conversations. So what would you say about that?

Yeah, I think it's very doable on a small scale, on a large scale. Like, what was crafted for us and, you know, basically gifted to us when we stepped into the role was something that's very able to be replicated no matter the size of your church. And even the actual lessons that have been written— Lisa Santagetti, the wife of Franklin. They were the leaders before us, and, and she wrote— she's a wonderful writer. She's written studies that are all over the world, and she wrote the curriculum basically that we use. And so we— Dream City has those like in a Dropbox. When people come to our conference, they get a whole year's worth of, of lessons for like $25. So even a really small church could utilize something like that, right? And people could write their own lessons. I mean, there are gifted, talented writers, uh, and preachers in, in all these churches. So it's, it's just a very doable kind of system.

Yeah, we have marriage mentors, uh, for some of the, the more extreme issues that are happening in marriage, but also people that just want to do life together. And then we also obviously do premarital coaching, and we have about 20 couples that do that. And we, we work with Les and Leslie Parrott. I'm sure you guys are very familiar with them.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah, using the Symbis and scaling that. And so I believe that we have a well-built machine that we stepped into, but we're fine-tuning it into not just talking about communication communication or sex. We want to go deep in even the role of the Holy Spirit in marriage, like just some deeper topics that not everyone thinks about, but we're able to dig in and make it simple.

Yeah. I love that. And I love the encouragement to churches of all sizes, because that's just a passion that we have is wanting to help equip churches as they're serving their people to realize if you can just focus more on marriage, everybody wins. You know, your youth ministry is going to be stronger because when you create strong parents, you know, the youth are going to win. The every aspect of the church, you're going to be developing leaders, all of it, because God created marriage, one of the very first things he created. And when we focus on it, we all win. So here at XO Marriage, we have resources that could help your church. You can check out what's going on at Dream City Church is a wonderful model because like Josh said, they're— that church has been pioneers in this. You know, we've been impacted from a distance by Dream City Church for a long time, and they're so giving and sharing with the world. With their resources, their ideas. And so learn, you know, learn from those who've gone before for sure. But in this season of marriage for you guys, you know, coming up on 25 years, same as us, we're kind of right there in that same season. What are you learning in this season right now? Like what does marriage look like a quarter century in?

Do you want to take that one first?

That's so weird to think of it in those numbers. Yeah, I mean, we, we're parenting semi-adult children, uh, kids that are moving into, you know, moving out of the house, moving into their own marriages. Um, so that, that's very different. Um, it's a little bit like reverting back to the 2-year-old phase, you know, where like they're so emotional and so needy, but the needs are much, much greater, a lot more severe consequences for any misstep, you know. But yeah, so for us, I I feel like it's that, that piece of like parenting our adult children, but also for us just continuing to be surprised at God, his faithfulness. Why is that surprising? But it just is always constant, is always there. And even as we're walking through new things, you know, he's just faithful. He's faithful to bring us to those deeper levels that we have asked for, that we are seeking out in him. Our discipleship, our personal discipleship practices. And as we walk it out, as we're continuing to learn and grow, we're able to share that journey with our marriage class and with the relationships that we have.

Yeah, we definitely don't go unfiltered into our class. You know, whatever the lesson is that week, for some reason, the Lord wants us to practice it before we get in there. And it's usually something that I've said. We bring those things to light. But even the simplicity of praying together, 25 years in, still being like, we need to make sure that we're doing this because we're telling everyone else to, and it's so easy to take your eye off the ball. And then my role just in the spiritual leader of this home is honestly submitting to the Lord, but also submitting to you when I do make a mistake. These are some of the things that you talk about over the years, but putting it into practice after knowing each other this long, I think is It's something everyone needs to ponder and think about because the simplicity of our gospel still needs to play out even 70 years in, rather than complicating it with all these other things.

Right, we never get to that place where we're finished, right? And so as we continue to grow, there's always another level that God wants to take us to, and everyone wants to take them to in their discipleship. So getting to walk that out, to watch it happen in you, to watch it happen in me, and to see the fruit of that as we just continue to submit to him and obey the little things that he's asking us to do.

Yeah, we just spoke on Sunday and preached a sermon on marriage in light of eternity. So at 25 years in, it's never been more relevant to us that it's not supposed to be face-to-face demanding fulfillment. It's got to be shoulder-to-shoulder spreading the gospel. And the more we can serve together— that's why, honestly, selfishly, we love marriage ministry, because it makes us work on this.

Oh, for sure. I totally get that. Yeah.

Yeah.

So we go work on, on that and make sure that we are sharing the Gospel, but also shining the light of the bride in Christ and making sure that example is seen, rather than people questioning the Gospel and they're being confused by watching us.

Right.

Well, it's what you talk about, like, as you describe the missional marriage, right? And is that something that you really try to teach the people who come to your class? Like, not only by example, but just kind of in some of the teachings that you do?

That's right. So rather than moving in a direction that's just squarely focused here, we are on mission every single day to our children, to each other. Those two are very much at closer to the top of the list. But when they see Joanne and I, do they see Jesus? Do they see me serving her? Because the language in the Bible, when he says he loves us so much that he gave his life, for the bride. So am I giving my life for the bride? And that they can see that in how I speak to her, even when she, uh, closes the garage door on the back of the car.

We've all done that a time or two, right?

But have we?

I'm pretty sure I have.

No, I'm pretty sure I've done plenty. Plenty. I've like—

I think it—

I have a dent in the side of my car that I caused from running into a stationary object. So like, I— no judgment, no Hey, my truck back yesterday from doing the same thing.

So you get it. Yeah, it is being on mission and just making sure that we give people practical steps in how to do that.

Right.

For example, we spoke on Sunday about just asking yourself in the middle of an argument, will this matter in eternity?

Because exactly right.

Yeah, that's good, man. That's perspective.

Keeping that perspective. And I'd like to come back to something you guys talked about a little bit earlier in this conversation and how you like to teach people about the Holy Spirit and, um, you know, marriage and like how we— the role of the Holy Spirit in marriage. I would love for y'all to talk more about that because you're right, that is not talked about enough.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, I mean, first and foremost, it's like just acknowledging that he's there, right?

Right.

Inviting him into your daily life. So a lot, you know, many people will feel like, well, my spiritual walk is just, you know, it's me and Jesus and we're doing our thing, you know, and it just doesn't really include their spouse or anybody else, where that's just not possible in a marriage. I mean, the two have become one. So if we're one, then my walk with the Lord is going to be connected to yours. And so being aware, first of all, of the Holy Spirit and, and his role and the, the fact that he is there, but also being conscious of inviting him in, inviting him into conversations, inviting him into problems in the middle of an argument. Yes, stopping and saying We need to pray. Like, this is not going anywhere good, so let's like reframe the paradigm and get our focus back on what really matters. You know, Joshua walked the house and anoint the doors and the pillows and praying, you know, and asking the Holy Spirit to be here and real and with us and helping us.

Yes.

Yeah. Shining light, showing us the truth, because we can't— we're just going to get off track so quickly without him. So it's about inviting him in.

And then some of the things outside of just that core is things like the role of prophecy in marriage, because prophecy is sometimes seen as voodoo. When really, when I feel the urge to encourage her and affirm her and give her like, hey, the Lord's really speaking to me about this for you on something I read today in the word, like a blessing. Guess what? That was prophetic.

Yeah, that's beautiful, right? That's beautiful. Yeah.

So those are just some of the things as we think about the fruits of the spirit. I work on gentleness and that coming out naturally, and then exercising that day-to-day. So it's not just in front of the class, not just on a podcast. And that's the role of the Holy Spirit to us, inviting him into every aspect, including the bedroom, right?

Yes.

It's so practical. I love it, because like you said, I think as soon as we start talking about the Holy Spirit, um, depending on the tradition that someone might have come from, there's, there's this sort of certain, like, oh, is this like— this is like voodoo, like you said. Like, I don't know how to— it's got to be, it's got to be weird or something. And And there's nothing like weird or scary about the Holy Spirit. I mean, he's our guide, our friend, every word of scripture is through him. And he wants to guide us in our marriage through encouragement. And I love framing prophecy in that way that when the Lord prompts you to just speak a word of encouragement over your spouse, or, you know, you read a scripture and you're like, hey, I think this is for you today. Like that's prophetic. And that's beautiful. And that's so practical. And I think a lot of couples pull back from even thinking that way. They're like, "Oh no, I'm not spiritual enough for all of that." And it's like, no, God wired us up to be filled with the Spirit, led by his Spirit, and for this to be just a natural flowing part of your everyday life.

Right. And it builds that spiritual intimacy. Which is a part of intimacy that I think is often neglected in marriage. And so when you talk about the Holy Spirit and the role of the Holy Spirit in marriage, that is a big way to build that intimacy. You know, I would love to ask you guys, in the work that you do, where are you seeing that there are maybe a lot of issues cropping up with the married couples that you tend to help? Like, what are those big hitters these days that are causing issues between a husband and a wife?

I think, and we don't even have to get off on pornography, but secret sin, that's the first thing. But there's a lot of other secret sins. And sure, yeah, about bringing things into the light. And it could be things into the light like, hey honey, I'm struggling with gossiping again. Like, I just, I'm really eaten up about that person and I've just kept it. I've just been not, not giving it up to the Lord. Some of those secret sins we see so often in marriage where they're not actually telling the And confession, as you know, that's you telling the truth, and repentance is God telling you the truth because you're turning. Yeah, yeah, that's good, right? And so those are some of the things we go over quite often because it's just, it's the day-to-days, but it starts stacking up. And that, that is part of our testimony, which we can get to at some point. But just those everyday secret sins that we're not bringing into the light.

I would say another key piece that we've discovered ourselves, and it's made such a huge impact in us is attachment styles. Learning about your family of origin.

Yeah, yeah.

Just getting a real understanding of how that's affecting your daily life now, because we like to compartmentalize and push it aside, you know. Well, that was then and this is now, and my anger over this issue doesn't have anything to do with my parents. It's about you and what you just did, right? And so, but really being willing to dig down into some of that and discover, well, what percentage of this feeling is attached to that feeling I had when I was 7, you know, and the same kind of event happened? And so it's just helping one another walk through the way that we were formed through our experiences. We were malformed through our experiences, but God, right, the Holy Spirit wants us to be that new creation that he always intended us to be, with the gifts and abilities. And for me, it was separation fading out. Like, what is my attachment style? That's unhealthy, but the personality he gave me is good and right, and, and I, I'm blessed to have that, right? So being able to really separate those two things— we talk a lot about attachment styles and family of origin stuff in our class.

Absolutely.

And that's, that is huge. And I, I think it's so insightful, and we see that as well all the time in the work that we do and even pop up in our own marriage.

For sure.

Is so many of the issues in marriage have very little to do with the thing we're arguing about or the thing we're struggling with. It has a lot to do with unhealed wounds. It has a lot to do with uncommunicated expectations. It has a lot to do with just how we were raised, you know, insecurities or maybe traumas that we brought into the marriage that we haven't truly worked out or healed and, or even just communicated clearly. 'Cause we each have, We have like a picture, an invisible picture we bring into marriage that we don't really say out loud what it is, but then our spouse isn't living up to this picture we have in our head. And we think, oh, you're failing because it's not lined up over here. But this picture is this fictional thing we've created on our own based on how we were raised, personality and everything else. And you gotta paint a picture together in marriage. You have to kind of tear up your own and say, what's the vision God has for us? And let's work toward that.

Yeah, but, um, I'd love to hear— you said you'd like to maybe talk a little bit about your testimony, whatever you guys would like to share.

I would love to hear that, and we can condense it. But I really want to start off with— when we go into our marriages, we really need to think through what we've been compromising on before we got married. And compromise is one thing we want to negotiate through when we're working through an argument, but I'm talking about moral compromise, right? I'm talking about spiritual compromises. I grew up in the church, as did you. Pastor's kid and going to Lee, there were certain compromises I made, even on viewing things I shouldn't have been viewing.

Sure.

And then you get into marriage and you wonder why your physical intimacy and your emotional intimacy isn't aligned. Well, it's because I made soul ties with things that were demonic. Yeah. And so by the time we got into marriage, we've always been great friends, to be quite honest. Like, even in the roughest patches, we just enjoy each other's personalities and how we, we blend.

That's a gift. Yeah, I feel the same, you know.

So getting into that marriage, yes, there were unmet expectations. You heard I'm a hopeless romantic and she's, she's not. And so I wanted to be more close with her, but she wasn't completely separated from her family emotionally. Yeah, leaving cleave was not something she had really ever practiced or wanted to do.

In all honesty, I we're all just fine. Why can't we just keep doing our merry thing and then you are an add-on, right?

Yes.

That is not what God calls us to do, right? We're not welcoming that person in as a part of a family. He and I are creating a new family with a new mission. And yeah, so I didn't understand that, nor did I really want to do that.

Yeah. So 7 years in, 2 toddlers, 1 baby, I had entered into a career where I was— it was— I was very successful. That's not bragging, that's just honestly, it was costing me a lot more than I realized.

Sure.

Because I was trying to be affirmed through something and someone else, and it wasn't from God. And so by 7 years in, we found ourselves— I had compromised in different ways, but it wasn't physical adultery, it was emotional adultery. You know, oftentimes men, and maybe women— I don't spend a lot of time with women, so I don't know, but I spend time with this woman— but men flirt and then they think it's okay, right? Yeah, it's not okay.

It's not.

You're doing all your apps, anything you're, you're texting, any relationship that has that form of intimacy is not right. And so I had been practicing that, and it— I'm not blaming her, but I wasn't getting that emotional intimacy with her.

Right.

And so I just got— like most guys, I was like, fine, I'm gonna do my own thing then. And so 7 years in, we, we bottomed out in a way that we never mentioned the divorce. That, that was never a discussion. What was is she got real with me and said, we can't keep doing this round robin, right?

Right.

You can't keep going to happy hours. I was drinking a lot and just— yep, those types of things became something that I knew growing up. That was not something I grew up around. Right? It became just something normal to me because I felt affirmed. I felt valued. I was getting my identity from something that I'd never known about. You know, I'm a— I have a psychology degree and I'm a pastor's kid. I just thought I was going to help people for the rest of my life in marriage and family. And then I found myself in a career. So there was definitely a fork in the road that we had to choose. And I want you to kind of talk about really the two combination of factors that made the difference.

Yeah. So when that happened, it was like, okay, we're going back to square one, basically. You know, we both say that we know God, that we love Jesus, we follow Jesus, but we're definitely not living that way. Whatever our dysfunctions are, it is not the abundant life that Jesus paid for. So I said to him, we need to just go back to square one. We need basic discipleship. We need to submit ourselves to mentorship under another couple, other people that are— that we trust, that are close to God. So we started that process, and eventually we were actually able to move away way, like maybe a year later we moved away. So we had a real fresh start. We started pouring into attending a new church and just, yeah, really starting from scratch. And that the two pieces that were key, one was, and you did this from day one, he had a tremendous amount of humility and he approached the situation just with honesty and humility, saying, you know, I, I messed up, I'm gonna own my part, right? He owned his part. He didn't blame me. And that humility really unlocked grace for me to be able to—

yeah, that's good—

do the hard thing of forgiveness, of rebuilding trust, of honoring one another, right? And then it's like those two qualities are like tandem, they work hand in hand. It's like humility begets grace, begets humility, begets grace, and they just go back and forth. Because didn't Jesus humble himself first of all to come to earth, and then to humble himself to being crucified on a cross, which poured out grace on all mankind for all time. So that, that system, that humility equals grace pattern, we didn't even know. Like, again, that was like God's mercy on us. We didn't even know that's what it was at the time, but that's what we were living out as we rebuilt our relationship over the course of the next 3 years.

Yeah, absolutely. So you heard her say she's the one that initiated impeded us going to get discipled. Yeah, problem one, I was no longer the spiritual leader. I had vacated the premises.

Yeah.

And what happens in, as you know, the spiritual covering that God has ordained for a man in the home— there were holes in my tent of that spiritual covering, and those fiery arrows were coming through, which gave the enemy permission into my home, into my marriage, towards my children. But no, no, no, the boldness within me now.

Yeah.

And the boldness within her now. That's why we want to empower couples. You may have that story, you may have even worse story, but that the man, if he will step in to be a spiritual leader, it changes the game. It changes the game. And I think that if we don't call men higher, rather than just telling them what you're, what you're not doing, is that he's been created Needed to do that. It doesn't mean some toxic masculinity where you're the machismo of the house. It's me humbling myself first. Men, you go first. Prayer, uh, if it's not happening in your home, it died with you first.

Yeah.

And so it's about calling those things out to the surface. And, and really, you allowed me to step into that spiritual leadership. She could have been like a lot of people we talked to. How dare you try to—

I was tempted. Oh, I was very tempted.

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Many times to say, you know, oh sure, now you're gonna, you know, now you're gonna do the right thing. Well, I don't know if I really want to let you, you know. But every time it was like the Holy Spirit just convicted me, no, allow this process to change. It's going to be a process. It's going to be weird at first, going to be awkward. You're going to try to pray together and it's not going to feel like it's just right, but it is a new practice, right? We're practicing the new way, the Jesus way. And so it's going to be a little weird at first, and we're going to get used to it, and we're going to get good at it and more and more mature as we grow.

Yeah. What are we willing to sacrifice for our marriage and for our walk with Christ? So we were willing to sacrifice— I moved our family from Phoenix, Arizona to Boston, Massachusetts in January. I had a promotion.

Pretty wild.

Got us right. It got us out of the environment that was not healthy for us, and it just focused us on our on our children, on our marriage. So I encourage couples— what do you expect me to do, to get a new job? If that's what it takes, do it.

Absolutely. Yeah, that— we're all in.

Like, simply just get a flip phone. Maybe you need to get rid of your iPhone if it's causing issues. Whatever you need to do to preserve this, because God's going to honor those types of sacrifices.

I love that.

I was actually just talking, um, with a new friend of mine, and they had been through infidelity, and she said that the phone was the constant problem, and her husband willingly, like through counseling, they were like, what boundaries need to be in place? And they talked about a flip phone and he came to the conclusion that he's like, you know what? I don't think I need a cell phone of any kind. So he has no cell phone. And he's like, if I need to call home, I go to an actual landline in my place of work. And do you know, he's actually said like their marriage has never been better. He said, I feel free. And, um, and she feels so validated and seen and respected and loved because he made— because he made that choice.

Like, it's the move to Boston. It's the— right, we'll do whatever, I'll get rid of whatever.

You know, he took that— he made that choice. It wasn't her saying, you have to do this. He was like, you know, um, but that's so true. I mean, being willing to— and that's the thing that seems weird to the world, right?

Yeah. And but, but what the world says is normal doesn't work in marriage. So I don't want to be normal by the world's standards. I want to be weird and healthy in marriage. Exactly. Exactly. I love it. And that's a powerful testimony, guys. And I know our listeners needed to hear that. There's some people who are, I'm sure, in that struggle of rebuilding trust right now. And that challenge you gave, but also the grace, the hope that you guys offer is so, so powerful. And in just a minute, we're going to transition to our weekly question. And luckily we have our friends Josh and Joanna here to help answer. But before we get to the weekly question though, uh, guys, give a quick plug for the event we're doing together on May 2nd at Dream City Church and what people can expect who come to that, which is just a— if you're listening in real time, it's just a couple weeks away from right now.

Yeah, well, you can check it out at dreamcitychurch.com/unstoppable because it's called Unstoppable Us. And so we're so, so honored to have you. I remember when I called you, Dave, I was like, you don't even know me, but we want you to come. And you said, you said yes. So it's 9 AM to 3 PM that day, and we did want to intentionally make it kind of an abbreviated because you can't give a lot of excuses on a 9 AM to 3 PM.

Yeah, it's right, we can all do this.

And we're going to have a great time at our Scottsdale location. And to be honest with you, North Scottsdale, beautiful. The campus is, is just so— it's just very relaxing and peaceful. And So we're going to have a lot of great conversations with you. I can't wait to hear from what you've got to share, what the Lord's given you. We will have food trucks out there for lunch. We do only have about 7 more spots, 7 more couples for the VIP lunch that we've got that day. There's also some other special things. We kept that very intimate, so we're going to have that for only a select few. But we've also just got some special surprises throughout the day that we don't want to spoil too many surprises.

Of course, of course, you got to come and see. So friends, come. This is going to be, uh, this is one of those events we've got circled on our calendar that we've really been looking forward to. God's going to do something special. So if you are in the Phoenix area or you're willing to get to the Phoenix area, they have a great airport, uh, so you could fly there from anywhere.

Yeah.

Um, we would love to spend the day with you on May 2nd. It's going to be a ton of fun. And thank you again, Josh and Joanna, for, for hosting us and for doing this event in partnership with us. We're going to have such a great time. Yes. All right. Now pivoting to our question for the day. And as always, you guys can write us questions at nakedmarriagepodcast.com. And today's question says this, my spouse says it's the little things that matter most, but I honestly don't know what that looks like in real life. What are some small habits that make a big difference in marriage?

All right.

So great question. You know, there's a, I don't know the full context here of the situation, if maybe Maybe there are certain things the spouse has once, maybe they've asked for that this other spouse isn't doing that are little things that seem big, like, "Hey, don't leave your socks on the floor," kind of stuff. And you still leave your socks on the floor. And over time, it becomes from an annoyance to feeling like it's active disrespect. It can be something like that, or it could, I mean, it could be a lot of different things. So it's a pretty broad question. Sometimes the questions are super specific. But what are some of the little things and the little habits in marriage that are important that can lead to big changes? Sweetie, do you want to go first?

Goodness. I mean, I think it's really paying attention, paying attention to knowing your spouse's love language and doing the things that you know they love often. Like I'll give an example of what Dave does for me. So I am a big flower girl. Like I love flowers. So Dave, I mean, pretty much weekly will buy me flowers and just bring them home. It's not expected. It's not a special occasion. I'll just see a bouquet in the kitchen and I love it. And he often gets stargazer lilies, which are my favorite. And it could be a small little bouquet, but it just means the world to me cuz I love the fragrance of them and I love the look of them and I just feel seen and loved. I love that you, you know, a little act of love you do for me is filling up my gas tank. You like make it your mission that I rarely have to put gas in my car and I love that. That. But also, I think, um, things like putting down your cell phone when I'm talking to you so that you're not distracted and I have your eyes when we're having a conversation. You know, I remember when Dave was, um, really in the thick of pastoring, he, he realized that when he would come home at the end of a day, that, you know, when I was staying home with the kids at the time, all I could do— I couldn't wait for Dave to get home, and the kids couldn't wait for Dave to get home. And he would come home, and usually as a pastor, as you guys know, there's always somebody who probably needs some help or something, and there's always calls to make. And so oftentimes he would be on the phone and we would be so excited to see him, but he'd be like putting out the finger like, you know, wait one minute, I'm almost ready. And we'd all be right there waiting, and then, you know, he'd get pulled into another kind of crisis of sorts. And so he said, you know, just seeing the look of disappointment on our faces, he was like, I've gotta change this. My family deserves my best attention. And so he decided, he kind of made a deal with himself, that he's going to finish a call before walking in the house. And so he's like, I'm going to finish that call in the driveway and I'm not taking any more calls that night. And, um, and that really just showed us, you know, me as his wife and our kids, um, it showed us how much we matter. And so it's little things like that of just paying attention, making sure it's, you know, God first and then your spouse and then your kids, and just really prioritizing things the way the Bible, you know, tells us to, it goes a long way. What do you guys think?

One little practical step that we encourage couples at our class to use is called the 6-minute prayer. So, you know, you might be thinking, how can we find time to pray together? You know, I'm supposed to study the word and have devotionals and, you know, spend all this time, and we just don't have the time, right? Well, everybody's got 6 minutes at some point in even if you have to call and do it over the phone, right? But ideally, you're speaking to God in front of your spouse, for your spouse. And so you each take turns, 1 minute for each portion. So the wife has 3 minutes, the husband has 3 minutes, and you basically, first off, just thank God for your spouse for a minute. And then you ask for forgiveness for a minute about whatever you can think of that pops in your head.

Most often she goes, I don't know what to ask for forgiveness.

Sometimes when we do, like, we're on more of a roll and we're doing a wrap-up, and I'm like, uh, what did I do? But you look for those things. What can I ask forgiveness for? And then the last minute is just a blessing, asking God to bless your spouse. So that's a really small, practical—

yeah, I love that—

those accounts short, right? Like, we don't want a backpack full of all the little things that weigh us down. We want to keep really short accounts with each other, and That's a practical way to do it.

Yeah, I went more, even more practical. Like, she doesn't pick up her clothes all the time in the closet.

I hate unpacking suitcases.

Hate it.

So I'll do the laundry. I do the laundry, and I'm not the greatest folder, but at least I get it enough and I stack it on her side. I have— those are some of the little things that just do little things, right? Just types of rhythms. Or, you know, we have so many cars because we have so many kids with cars. So moving cars around and jockeying around without me going, oh my gosh, we got my attitude, my tone. Those are the little things.

Yes, you're right.

What you said about coming in from work, it's kind of a similar thing as what you were saying, but like getting 60 seconds in the car, center yourself before you get in that house. I'm walking into a new environment. I don't know what's been going on here. Mom's been home with the kids all day and it's probably been crazy, right? So I may be walking out of a crazy workspace and walking into a crazy home. So God, cover me, right? And give me mercy and let me walk in here with joy and peace because we have his presence. We are filled with the Holy Spirit. For him, yes.

Another practical—

that's so good—

even texting. So Joanna is an emoticon freak. Um, she loves emoticons. And so I know, I love I love the smiley face. Yeah, well, I have to make sure I put them in there with hearts and all these things, otherwise she thinks I'm mad.

If you use a period, it's like you're shouting.

So those are the little things, and you know that about her and you honor that. Yeah, you're like, you know what, I know she appreciates this. It's that thoughtfulness. Well, so those are great ideas, you guys.

I gotta say, I'm kind of hurt now that I know this because Josh has texted me quite a bit and I've gotten I've gotten no hearts.

Oh my goodness.

No, I don't think I've gotten any smiley faces. I'm going to look back through our— Yeah, right. Yeah. There you go. Like manly approved. No, that's great. I love it. Those are great, great suggestions. So man, thank you. Thank you, Josh and Joanna, for your ministry. Thank you for your example. Thank you for your boldness and your transparency and being able to share even some of the hard stuff from your own testimony and now how God is using your testimony to help other people. 'Cause you can relate, you can connect. And all of us have a testimony. All of us, we've been lots of different spots, whether it's my past porn struggle or, I mean, just none of us are perfect here and God's grace is so good. But we've loved this conversation. Cannot wait to hang out with you in a few weeks in Phoenix and invite all listening and watching encouraging to get a ticket and join us there. And Josh, Joanna, do you guys have any final words for us before we sign off?

Well, I think that there's one practical thing I want to leave the listeners with. Communion can be done in your home.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah.

And as you do that with your spouse, you talk about intimacy, and as you prepare your hearts and minds, you know, for the week week. And that's just one thing that we've incorporated. And I know I just went deep spiritually in your last segment here, um, but I just—

no, let's finish strong. I love it.

I feel burdened to pass that on because there's so many people we meet, they're like, they either grew up Catholic or whatever it is, and they're like, we can do that? Even in the evangelical, charismatic, Pentecostal, they're like, oh, we only do that once a month. And you know, guess what? You can have it here. And it just creates a powerful intercessor moment. Maybe we take it over our Maybe we take it over our country. Maybe we take it over what's happening in the Middle East. Whatever it is, that puts us in one accord for what the Lord's will is.

Yeah.

Man, that is a good word. Thank you, Josh.

That is a good word. Thank you all so much.

And that challenges us. That's something that— Yes, we can do that.

Bring it to them.

That is a great way to end and a very practical challenge.

Definitely.

Well, friends, thank you again. It's been so great hanging out with you digitally. Can't wait to hang out with you in person very soon. Soon. And for all of you watching and listening, God bless you guys. Share this episode. I know that the testimony and the, and the words of wisdom that Josh and Joanna shared are going to be impactful for all who hear it. So help us spread the word, and, uh, we will see you guys soon. Thanks again.