Help! My Spouse is a Narcissist | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And I'm not going to share a review before we jump in, but I just want to give a special thank you to all of you who keep leaving reviews. Let me tell you, it is the best way to spread the message about the Naked Marriage podcast. So if you've been listening and you feel like you've been getting something out of this podcast, the best way to say thank you is by leaving a review. And not only does it boost our kind of, you know, day, I guess, and week, but it really does let others know what they can get out of this podcast. So if you haven't left a review, please do so.

Yeah. And we do really appreciate it. And also if you're not connected to us on Instagram, please do that. We love to keep the conversation going throughout the week. We read the messages you send, we love the engagement that you leave on the posts, and we love that that community is growing. We invite you over there. We're Dave and Ashley Willis on Instagram, so check us out over there if you haven't. We're starting a new three part series today called My Spouse is Fill in the Blank. And in that fill in the Blank each week, we're going to fill it in the blank with one of the most common negative traits that people write in for health. My spouse is this. What do I do? My spouse is that, what do I do? And today we're going to talk about what to do when my spouse is a narcissist. What does that word mean? That word's thrown around a lot in culture. We're going to dive in and explore what to do if that's your situation. So it's gonna be an important conversation. Let's go, man.

This is a very needed podcast episode. It's one that you guys have written us about over and over again. But to be very honest with you all, we've been a little reluctant to just dive into this without doing some research because this word narcissism and narcissist, it's really thrown around. Like if you're on TikTok, I can't tell you how many TikTok videos are about their narcissistic spouse, their narcissistic mother in law, you know, whatever. It is like talking about some kind of narcissist in their life and how they just want to cut them out of their life and this and that. But when it comes to marriage, it's a bit more delicate because this is the person that you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with. And I think sometimes people will go into this marriage not even realizing that maybe their spouse has some narcissistic tendencies or maybe, you know, you yourself listening might have some narcissistic tendencies. So we wanted to make sure that we didn't go into this podcast episode willy nilly. So I'm going to share some things with you and I'm actually going to tell you where I found this information, but also let you guys know that we've given this a lot of thought and prayer.

Yeah, we really, really have. And Ashley's even in a master's program right now, a seminary program for biblical counseling where she's diving into both scripture and to modern social science research. So she's, she's kind of like a, I mean, developing a real expertise in these areas.

Well, I really, you know, with these classes and the different practices they have us do, I do learn a lot, but I know that there's even much more to learn, so.

Well, we always have more to learn.

We are lifelong students and we've even had, you know, we've had people on the podcast who have kind of skirted this issue a little bit, like talked, but we've not really, we've not really gone real deep into it. And so we're going to try to get as specific as possible in the time that we have and we'll probably end up doing more, you know, on this in the future. But first we really need to define what narcissism is. Don't you think, sweetie?

That'd be a good start.

Yes. So in order to like know what a narcissist is, I'm actually going to a website called Choosing Therapy, which is based on really kind of the psychological backing of what, what, you know, if you went to a psychologist, a therapist, like how someone could get diagnosed with narcissism or, or they could say, yes, you know, your spouse is clearly, you know, demonstrating narcissistic tendencies. And so it talks about how if you actually have narcissistic personality disorder or npd, you'll have an overflated ego, a lack of empath others, which that's a huge, huge thing. And an intense need for excessive attention and admiration from others. And usually they say this stems from having a fragile self esteem which can make a person explosive and hostile when criticized. And I know a lot of people who are dealing with or think they're Dealing with a spouse who may have this. This disorder or maybe even just have some of these tendencies is they feel like they're living with a person who gaslights quite a bit and who really can never be wrong because they always see themselves as the one who is right in any situation. So they don't take responsibility.

So in every story, they're the hero or the victim.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Or if not, it's because they're the victim. Somebody has wronged them, but they're never the one to blame. They're never the one at fault, because they can't. They're not able to. They don't have the emotional maturity to really see themselves as someone who. Who was wrong and needs to be corrected. But all of us are wrong sometimes.

I mean, literally, we're all human. We're gonna make mistakes. We're going to be wrong. We all need to seek forgiveness. We all need to offer forgiveness. And I think when it comes to narcissism, there's just this. This narrative playing out in their mind that they can never be wrong. And you guys, like, we have had people, you know, close friends in our lives where we've seen this playing out, and we have seen firsthand some of the damage when this is not addressed. And the really hard thing with. Who suffer with narcissism and their poor spouses that are also, you know, living with someone who tends to be narcissistic is they are the ones who tend to not want to get help. You know what I'm saying? But I also want to be very clear that we've also worked with a lot of couples who they finally recognize. Like, the spouse who's dealing with narcissistic personality disorder recognizes after some time, usually takes some time, like, oh, my goodness, maybe they're right. Like, you know, and usually it takes. It takes that other spouse being willing to really put some really strong boundaries in place to say, you can't keep treating me this way. You can't keep being explosive. You can't keep making threats to me just to manipulate me and putting those boundaries in place in order to teach them like this. You know, I'm drawing a line in the sand here saying, I love you too much to let you keep on doing this to us. And it's a really tough place to be. Like, I just want to say that right out of the gate. Like, we realize that we can't cover every little facet of this in the 20 minutes we have with you, but our hearts go out to those who are in this dynamic. Right, sweetie? I mean, we know. This is one of the toughest marital dynamics that I think people can be in, don't you think?

It definitely is one of the toughest. But there is hope. I want to.

There is hope. Yes.

Give you guys a resource just from some personal friends of ours. Shane and Sheila Pitcock.

Yes.

Who we've interviewed on this podcast. He was diagnosed as a narcissist, which most people think that's just a death sentence on a marriage. There's no redeeming it. He was abusive. He was by his own account, just a terrible spouse coming from a place of deep brokenness and himself coming from abuse. Coming from abuse himself and continuing that pattern. And Shane and Sheila, we interviewed them on the podcast. If you're in that dynamic, I encourage you to look it up. So many people have found hope through their story and have written them and I want to share. They now do marriage mediation and coaching and help. So reach out to them directly. Their website is Journey to unity the number two. Not t o the number two. It's j o u r n e y number two unity.com journeytounity.com or you can email info@journeytounity.com and again, that's Shane and Sheila Pitcock and you can look up their episode. But their story gave me so much hope. They've lived this because they've lived it. They've lived it and they're like this. We were there like we were in the depths of just narcissism and abuse and the worst kinds of situations where people would say that marriage is. It's beyond any hope of redemption. That man is beyond any hope of redemption. And the Lord did a work, and they both did the work. He did the work, Shane, to really work through kind of getting to the root of what was broken in him. And their story gives hope and perspective.

And with like the emotional abuse that she experienced, there was actually long periods of separation that was required in order for him to. For her protection. Right. I just want to make that clear. But you can go and reach out to them and know more about their story and also listen to that podcast which I believe is called Overcoming. Overcoming in Marriage. I think is what we entitled that. I want to say too that it's important to kind of understand signs that you might be married to a narcissist. And so I'm going to share some again from this website, choosingtherapy. And it says, number one, you don't feel connected to them like you feel like maybe you have some things in common. But there's a little, there's less affect that they demonstrate in being that connection. So you feel like you can't penetrate their heart, you know, and we hear that so much from people when they feel like they're dealing with a narcissistic spouse is like, no matter what I do, no matter how upset I am, no matter how bad I feel things are getting, it's like they're stoic and they just don't see it or feel it. And so that's very hurtful. Number two, you're gaslighted by them. Gaslighting is something, I mean again, this term is thrown around quite a bit too. But this is when somebody is being extremely manipulative. But no matter, even if they're the one who is doing the wrong thing, they want to always convince you that it's somehow your fault. When you inside your mind and heart, you know, I'm not at fault here. But because they're so convincing and manipulative and have this ongoing narrative that is self serving saying like I'm the hero here or the victim, you kind of find yourself being like, wait a minute.

Am I, am I wrong? Am I crazy?

Am I wrong? Am I crazy? Yeah, it's very, very maddening. Number three, big one, they love bomb you. So then when they think they're losing you because they, you know, again, it's all about this control thing and making them look like the hero or the victim, but they think they're losing you, they'll love bomb you. Now love bombing is, is basically kind of when you're showing extra affection, extra gifts, extra compliments. Maybe you haven't been having sex and all of a sudden you're having sex and you're feeling so loved for a time, but it's not something that's consistent.

Right. As soon as they feel like the you're not leaving again, then they go back to the old ways and that.

No effect, no connection. Not being there, not doing things. Number four, they hold grudges. This big one.

Yeah. Always keeping score and you're always losing. They don't keep score of their own faults, but everything you've ever done, they know exactly.

Number six, they use triangulation. Triangulation is when two people are having a disagreement and a third person is brought into the argument in order to resolve the problem. And this says narcissistic triangulation is a manipulation tactic to ensure that only the narcissist viewpoint is validated. So in essence they, they find the one person who Will side with them. Like, they only have. Yes. People around them is another way I would word it. There's yes. People in their life that, first of all, they don't usually have a lot of people who are close to them.

In their life because they have alienated people. They've burned bridges and then blamed it all on everybody else.

Right. But they'll find that one person and be like, see, Bob agrees with me that you're, you know, you're a terrible wife or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, they'll find that one person and triangulate and try to get them to side with number six. They control you. They try to control your schedule. They try to control the money. They try to control your friends. They try to control, you know, how you see the world. And it kind of makes your world very small. You know, we hear that from a lot of people dealing with.

Yeah, it's isolating. Because isolation is one of their tools.

Because isolation often equals control for them.

Yeah.

All right. And that was number seven. They isolate you again. It goes back to control. Number eight. They treat you like a child. Haven't we seen this? Yes, man. One of the couples that just comes to mind that it breaks my heart because over the years, you know, they're actually friends of ours, which is a little bit complicated, because when it's your friend, when it comes to counseling and things, that's really not. That's not the best thing to do. They need to go to maybe a party that has more of an objective point of view. But just in being friends with people who are dealing with this. I see this because, for example, in this couple, for a long time, this husband who deals with narcissistic tendencies would not allow her to know anything about the money. When the kids started going to school, she was like, okay, I'm gonna go back to work. Because she stayed at home with the kids. And at first he was into it, but then he realized, oh, she's gonna be out in the world more. And then he kind of pulled back, and she was able to get kind of a job, like volunteering, but it's again, only with one other person because he didn't want her to work in an environment where there's more people. Because when there's more people and you can actually talk with people and maybe form an opinion, and, you know, those people will be able to have maybe some influence in your life and see that there's this narcissistic scenario going on. And. And then he would often reprimand her in ways that like a father would reprimand a child in the family. And it's just very undermining, very controlling. And it's. It's just. It creates a terrible marriage, to be honest with you. Until this is addressed, I would say number nine, it says they call you names and put you down, man.

And we've never.

Okay, guys, we've seen this dynamic, too.

Never. Okay.

Never. Okay. I mean, where I've seen. I won't say this person that I've witnessed had, like, an actual narcissistic personality disorder, but definitely tendencies. I'll never forget years ago, way before we were in marriage ministry, just going to a dinner and the husband immediately putting down the wife for how she kept the house and that she didn't buy the best cut of meat. And I'm so sorry that she didn't do this, like, basically cutting her down in front of us.

And she doesn't know how to do this, and she doesn't. And I'm looking around, like, demeaning her when, like, needlessly.

If you see your. First of all, it's mean anyway. Even if the house was a wreck, you don't do that. Okay?

Never.

Secondly, the house was immaculate. The dinner was fabulous, way better than anything I've ever made in my life. And I'm thinking it's just to put her down, you know?

And that marriage didn't last.

It did not. But, I mean, I hate. I hate it, but it didn't last. Number 10, it says they feel impossible to please. Like, you cannot. It feels like you cannot please.

You never measure up.

And number 11, they are always talking about themselves. And, you know, we've been around people.

Dave Willis would never do that.

Oh, my gosh. If you're talking in third person consistently, you might be a narcissist. Okay. No, but seriously, we've been in small group settings where there's been, you know, a spouse with narcissistic tendencies. And you just see it, like, every time there would be any kind of thing to add to the conversation, he would always turn it to himself. And it's like he just could not think about. You know, it was like he's so lost in his own kind of stuff because they're thinking again about how in this story, am I the hero or am I the victim? You know? All right, and number 12, it says they never seem happy with their present life. And this is. I mean, anybody could deal with this.

Right? Yeah. We can struggle any of these things. Contentment.

Right.

But it's really the totality of when you're seeing all these boxes ticked in yourself or somebody else. But again, if it's in yourself, you're probably not going to take the boxes because we. If we're struggling with it, we usually don't see our own flaws.

Right.

But if somebody in your life points them out to you, then. Then listen, you know that you can. You can. If you have these tendencies, you need to. You need to be able to say, all right, I want to get help. I want to change. I want to, you know, not stay this way.

Oh, my goodness, yes. And that again, that couple we mentioned, I mean, that was Shane's story. I mean, he was desperate to get help. And I. Let me just be really clear. Like, even if your spouse has these tendencies or you do, you're not a lost cause. Like, you're not doomed. You're not a human being who. I mean, you are a human being who's worthy of getting the help that you need to live the best life you can live and to be the best husband or the best wife you can be. A lot of times, I just want to say that the narcissist, you know, people who have this disorder or these tendencies often have very deep wounds that have not been addressed. It's not like they're just some horrible, sinister, evil person that is. That can't have. You know, it can't be helped. There is help.

None of us are beyond help or hope.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to finish these up real quick. So number 14. Another kind of sign that your spouse may be a narcissist is they. They are highly reactive to criticism.

Sure.

And again, it talks about them kind of fighting back or kind of losing it when anytime anybody feels like as a spouse, you come to them and you're like, I think we need to work on this. They're very upset about it, and they're like, wait a minute, you know, it's not my fault. Or, you know, it's all you. Another thing is they fish for attention and compliments.

Yeah.

Looking for that. Again, it's that inadequacy they already feel deep inside. And the number 15, they treat you like an object. And, you know, again, we've seen this in some narcissistic. In a marriage where one is a narcissist. Narcissist. Where in public they want to act like a great spouse. They want to act like their family is perfect. They want to look like the doting spouse or whatever it is. But really, because you're an object or on social media. Right. They want the image at the right times and that's what it means by being an object. But behind closed doors, again, there's that lack of connection, the lack of really, you know, being the spouse that they're trying to project that they are, but not being willing to kind of do those things. And so if you do feel like your spouse is any of those traits, I think it's important to bring it to them. And I get you'd be like, well, if they're a narcissist, would they even listen? What would you say about that, sweetie?

I would say start by listening to our episode with Shane and Sheila Pitcock overcoming in marriage and also reaching out to them@journeytounity.com journey number two unity.com because I think sometimes it might take somebody who's been there to help the narcissistic person see their own spots because, you know, they have a unique set of blind spots. We have help available here. This ministry, xomarriage.com help trained mediators who can meet with you even one on one if your spouse isn't currently willing to join you. But you don't have to walk through this alone. So get that outside help, talk to a Christian counselor and keep praying and trusting that God will get involved and he will do the rest. We've seen the miraculous happen. No person's beyond hope. No marriage is beyond hope. If you're in an abusive situation, get help. Get space to protect yourself. If you feel safe within your home but you just realize things are kind of reaching a crisis point, then just keep working. Help your spouse see that things are critical and they're either going to lose you or they're going to get help. And you might have to make it that plain to them. So I hope this is an encouragement to you guys. We're praying for those who are in these difficult situations. Please reach out to our team for help and just know that you're not in this alone. We love you guys. We'll see you next time.

Bye, guys.