Help! My Spouse Is Watching Porn | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, we're talking about an issue that we've talked about a lot here on the podcast, but we think we need a little bit of a refresher, and that is pornography and marriage. And so we're going to talk all about it in just a minute. But before we do, I want to share another review. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to write your reviews. I'm telling you, it is. It just makes our day. But more than that, it helps spread the word about the Naked Marriage podcast, which ultimately helps married couples to have stronger marriages. And so if you love this podcast, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. We would be so grateful. Today's review is from 669Franklin, and it's entitled Just in Time, and they gave us five stars. So thank you so much. It says, I found this podcast just in time. My husband and I were just struggling so much, and I wanted to make some changes in myself, which your podcast helped to facilitate. Thank you for having a podcast to help all of us who are trying to navigate marriage in the world we live in. As we try to stay true to Jesus Christ and his gospel, it's refreshing to hear the encouragement to stay true to the covenant of marriage. Since listening to some of your podcasts on marital sex, I've enjoyed being with my husband and just enjoying each other more than ever. We are coming up on 30 years of marriage.

Wow. Congrats.

And I'm so grateful for the positive outlook I have. By just hearing your suggestions to work together as a couple, I can truly say you've helped strengthen my marriage and devotion to marriage and the power it brings to families. You guys like hearing that someone who's been married 30 years is not only listening, but then actually benefiting from the podcast is really amazing. And we wanna be like these people because I feel like you never come to a point in your marriage, no matter if you've been married 30 years, 50 years, 60 years, you never come to a point where you can't still learn. And the fact that I kind of sense that she was saying it reignited some things by having these conversations. It's not even about what we say as much as what they say to each other. That's gold. It's awesome.

Yeah, it is gold. I think about we did an event at a friends church in the Atlanta area.

Mountain West. Shout out.

Pastor Mo Yeah, it was great event. And a couple that had been married 60 years.

And let me tell you, though, in the audience, they did not even look 60 years old.

No, they.

I don't even know. I'm like, how is this?

Had it verified that they were telling the truth? Even though they look young, they look super young, but I'm thinking 60 years. And they're still here wearing matching shirts at a marriage event to learn more about marriage.

I want to be them.

I want to be like you guys.

Yeah.

And I just want to be like you. And so I think that's. That's part of the secret sauce for an ever growing marriage is to keep learning, Keep growing, never feel like you've arrived. We hope to keep learning and growing all of our lives when we're married 60 years and beyond. So thank you guys for tuning in. Thank you for investing this time into your marriage. Today's topic is one we have talked about really at length, but we need to revisit it. Yeah, it's been a little bit, and it's one we need to revisit often, really, because it's so pervasive in our culture. You know, to use an SAT prep word, it's ubiquitous. You know, you've got a kid studying for the sat.

I like the word ubiquitous.

Ubiquitous. So it's everywhere. It's all over the place. And even within the church, even among Christians, the stats about porn use aren't much different than the rest of the world. A majority of men and an ever growing percentage of women are wrapped up in porn on a consistent basis. Not just part of your past testimony like it is for me, but it is part of your current struggle. And our culture has fed us so many lies about porn that it's harmless, that it's just entertainment that'll spice things up in the bedroom. Where God's word says to look with lust on someone is to commit adultery in your heart. To lust and to objectify people is really to mentally dehumanize them and dehumanize yourself in the process, because you're just reducing somebody to an object. And then the neuroscience says that pornography addiction can be as harmful to the brain as a heroin addiction. We could talk about stats and studies all day. We could talk about our friend Joshua Broome, who we've had on the podcast. We encourage you to listen to that episode. Great episode. A former adult film actor got pulled into that industry and for a decade made those movies, which, from a sinful worldview standard, might seem like a dream job, but he talked about just how dark the whole industry is.

How harmful.

How harmful.

How empty.

Yeah. And how behind the scenes, there's just. There's. There's so much pain and brokenness. How he's had 30 friends from that industry die by overdose or suicide in the years that he's been out of the industry. And so he just kind of shines a light on how harmful it is for both the consumers and those who are producing it. And now, thankfully, he's been set free. Saved by Jesus. He's got a wife and children and a ministry. He preaches, he speaks. He's a great guy.

He's a whole new life. And I want to say, just being. I know we're talking a little bit about Josh here. Shout out to Josh. But you just see it on him. Like, you. You think, like, there's so many people that think to themselves, like, I will never overcome my porn addiction. And I think you were there at one point, like, this is something I've been doing so long, I don't know if I can ever overcome it. And I think when you meet someone like Josh, who not only had his own things he was dealing with, but doing, you know, these pornographic films and then dealing with a lot of the internal damage that this does to people, if he can, you know, he can come through this as well and just shine a light for Jesus, it's like, my goodness, you know, any of us can. It brings everybody hope. And so definitely go listen to that episode and follow him. I think the one thing I really loved about that in particular, which we can't go into detail today, but I love how. I think a lot of times people who think that porn is harmless, they just don't think about the people making this and what it's doing to those people as well. And I think we need to know, like, we. And he gives us a look behind the curtain to see the damage that it's doing and how it's perpetuating sex trafficking. And, you know, we don't want to be a part of that. And I think that we often people who are kind of, you know, really deep into a porn addiction don't think about that. And I think it's important that you pause and you think about all the different damaging things this is bringing into your life. But I do think that I think people get into watching porn, like, at first, it's a habit, pretty innocently. Like, I've known people that end up watching porn who grew up in a Christian home. Right.

Like an instructional video. Or something like, I'm just gonna see.

A dear friend of mine. And this is, you know, a female friend of mine. She married her high school sweetheart and, you know, grew up in a Christian home. Both of them did. And she said that literally they watched a porn movie together just to learn how to have sex. Okay. Like, as a how to guide. Because her, you know, her family and his family, neither one wanted to talk to them about it. And she said it really, like, for a while there, they ended up watching it every time they had sex. And she said, and at the time, we just really didn't know the damage we were doing. And later on, it did cause some damage, and then they had to break free from that. But I do think that there are some people that fall into it that way. I think also in this day and age, you know, we have a lot of young, you know, listeners. Those of you who are, like, in your 20s and 30s, maybe newlyweds. And maybe, you know, when you were growing up, you grew up in the age of the smartphone and some kid on the bus showed you an image and it stuck with you.

Yeah, sure.

Or maybe. I mean, we had this happen to our son. He was working at the movie theater. A new. You know, he's getting to know the people he's working with. And this one kid asked him for his cell phone number, and he sent Connor a link. And the link, the way. No, this is Connor.

Oh, okay.

He sent Connor a link. And the link, what it was named, wasn't obviously porn. Like, it didn't have a pornographic name. So he clicks on the link, thinking it's like a silly video or it's. It didn't show a picture is what I'm trying to say. And thankfully, we have filtering software on our phone, so it was blocked immediately. And then Connor realized. Cause then we get sent a notification. He realized that it must have been a porn thing, and he got so angry. Cause we use Custodio, the Custodio app, which I highly recommend. And what it does is it blocks them, and it says, why? So it'll say, like, porn. Or it'll say weapons or mature material or whatever. And it said, porn. And of course, I immediately call Connor, and I'm like, okay, what was that? Like, what? What's going on? And he goes, mom, I promise you this kid. And I saw it. He showed me the whole text exchange. Because we take this seriously just to protect our children, you know? And he's like, I don't know what he was thinking. And I said, what? Did he say when you told him, like, man, my parents, you know, because they want to keep me safe from this stuff, have filters? He said the guy just laughed and shook his head. And, you know, sadly, that that is the world that our teens are growing up in. And even younger than teens. I mean, I think that innocent kids, like just playing games online or watching YouTube can end up. There's an ad, there's something that pulls them into another website, and it can just be exposed so early. And my point in saying all this is I think that it can happen pretty innocently, you know, when we're younger. But I think there comes a point when we, as adults and as Christian adults, we have to realize that it's wrong and we have to take the steps necessary to get it out of our life. And you, as a young Christian man, as a young married Christian man, you find yourself in that position. And I know a lot of you who have been longtime listeners to the Naked Marriage podcast know Dave's testimony. But for those who are new, sweetie, could you tell them a little short snippet?

Yeah, yeah. And we've. We go into great detail before I kind of jump in, give you the CliffsNotes version. We've got a book called the Counterfeit Climax, which is the most in depth resource around issues related to sex, porn, sexual baggage, and really how to break free from the counterfeits and embrace God's beautiful plan for sex. And I think that book is so important. If you or your spouse have at any point had an issue with pornography, I think it could be extra meaningful for you. It's not just a book about porn. It's really to help all couples thrive in their sex life. But porn specifically, we go into such great detail in it, so check that out. But, yeah, my deal, I was exposed to porn as a teenager back before the Internet even existed. I was exposed to magazines, and then the Internet came along and started finding images that way. And I would stay away from it for long periods, but then I'd fall back into it and never confess it, never really bring it out into the open the way we're supposed to with sin and have accountability. I just dealt with it in secret. And so by the time Ashley and I got together, I had, for the most part, broken free from it and convinced myself, well, maybe that's just not an issue anymore. And I certainly don't want to tell her that it was ever an issue because I don't want to put that in her mind. And I made the mistake, cowardly mistake. I'M not confessing that it had been a struggle to my soon to be wife. And we got married. About a year into our marriage, that temptation came back and just sort of took me off guard and I fell back into that same dark pit of sin. And now as a married man, knowing Jesus said, to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart. And I'm realizing this is an act of infidelity. What in the world have I done? And I felt ashamed. I felt broken. I felt paralyzed with fear because I didn't want Ashley to know. I didn't want to hurt her. But I also felt gripped by this sin. And without any accountability, sin just grows like a cancerous tumor. I mean, it just grows. And it was growing until Ashley found on the computer where I'd been. And it brought it all out into the open. And it was a long, messy process of really breaking free because those images were so embedded into my mind that it had really warped my thinking. And even though I hated myself for doing it and I hated that I wounded my wife, I relapsed once or twice and it was messy all over again. And it hit reset on the trust rebuilding process. And I hate that we had to walk through that. I hate that I was in that sin. I hate even more that I was causing pain to my wife. But I'm so thankful that she walked with me through that with so much grace and compassion, even though she herself was wounded because of my sin. And we got to the other side of that and I'm so, so thankful that we did. I think God has now used that aspect of our testimony to be a cornerstone piece of what we talk about in marriage. Because the porn issue is bigger now than ever.

Oh yeah.

And if you're listening to this or watching this episode, there's a good chance that either you or your spouse, or maybe both of you are caught up in it. And so specifically, just to kind of come back to the title of the episode to help, my spouse is watching porn. If you are the one who's not watching porn, but your spouse is caught up in this, and maybe it's not even a secret, maybe they're just defiantly doing it. Like, you know what? I'm a grown person. I enjoy this. I'm going to keep doing it. Or maybe they'll blame you and say, you know, my needs aren't getting met in the bedroom. You're not as available or as adventurous as you used to be, and I need this. And if you're not going to do it, then I'm just going to take care of stuff myself. And that mindset is so of course selfish and, and broken. But what do we do to help that person? I mean, if you're that person listening, you're like, yeah, I get it. Porn's bad and my spouse is into it and I'm not. What do I do? Sweetie, you were the one who was not into it and I was the one in sin. And so you're most qualified, I think, to speak directly into that.

Well, I think someone who's saying, help, my spouse is watching porn has either, you know, like you said, the spouse is defiantly doing it knowing their spouse knows about it and their spouse doesn't like it and doing it anyway. Or number two, you know, they, they may be confessed. Maybe they do recognize that it's sinful and not good and for them or for their marriage and they've confessed it and now the spouse is like, what do I do with this? Or number three, they're like me where they found it and they're like, where do I go from here? So there's probably those three scenarios or maybe some others. I would say first and foremost you have to go to your spouse and say, listen, I know you're watching porn as Christ followers. It's so clear that this is sinful and not good for us. And it's like poison, not only to you personally, but also to our marriage. And every time you do this, it really makes me feel inadequate. I find it disgusting. And you know, maybe your spouse is in agreement that it's disgusting and they hate themselves for doing it. Kind of like where you were, you didn't glorify it by any means.

No, you felt there was a self loathing.

I mean, I captured like you felt like you were unable to stop, you know, and I think most Christian people struggling with this, there is that wrestling inside because they know it's wrong but they feel helpless to stop. But there are some though, there are, you know, some of you guys write us and you're like, listen, I just don't agree. Like I don't agree. And what I would say is you both have to be in agreement, okay? You have to get to agreement that it's bad. Okay? And I would tell you that's between you and God and your spouse, but the Bible is crystal clear that this is a bad thing.

Okay, well, and even secular research, even secular.

Oh yeah.

FightTheNewDrug.com and others that are not religiously affiliated, just looking at the science, just looking at the data saying this is terrible for relationships in the long term, it's terrible for your own mental health.

They are an excellent follow. Find the new drug on Instagram also Moral revolution on Instagram. Both. I mean the stats are endless on the damage that it does not only to your brain, it actually damages your sex life. Like what people don't realize in watching porn consistently and obviously masturbating goes hand in hand with this, what you're doing to yourself. And Dave has articulated this very well in our books and other places. But you're really training to be a selfish lover. It was kind of the language you used and that really is what it is. And also what you'll find again secular research behind this is you end up a lot of times once you do have intercourse with your spouse, having, you know, performance issues, the inability to reach climax. Maybe because you've already self pleasured watching porn or because your spouse, you know, isn't this practically fake person that you've been watching and is a real person. And you actually have to also work a little harder when you're having intercourse with a real person.

Right. To consider their pleasure.

To consider. Exactly. And their preferences and things, things like that, that you find this disconnect and so it's very, very damaging. So first and foremost you have to agree together, get on the same page, this is not good for me personally, but it's also not good for us. And then what you have to do is to put things in place to first and foremost, you know, rebuild that trust. Like there's gotta be forgiveness. You know, hopefully the spouse is seeking forgiveness and then you can offer that forgiveness and say, yes, I forgive you and I'm going to allow you to rebuild this trust. But rebuilding that trust is going to consist of establishing boundaries. Like you've got to put boundaries in place. And I would say most of the time porn issues happen through technology. And so it might be that the spouse who has a porn issue gets off, you know, of the laptop. Like they're not going to use their laptop for a while or they're not going to be if it was through social media. I know porn isn't just watching movies or looking at pictures. The porn of today is, is going to only fans. And like having someone do their own, like live. What's the word I'm looking for here? Like fetish performances. I mean that's a new thing. Or even through Facebook, like I've heard we hear from more people lately where there's these Facebook groups that form or Even a private Facebook message where they're essentially sending pornographic pictures that based on individual preferences. And so it goes pretty deep. But I would say wherever you are, you know your spouse is getting their porn, they need to put, you know, put it like, I would say like, get off those sites, get off the device. And basically you're just, you're saying like, I can't be on these for a while so that I can be sober. Like you're basically, it's like sobriety. I mean, you're saying I can't even go there right now. Like if when someone is trying to overcome an alcohol addiction, they're not going to consistently go to bars, right?

Yeah.

You're not going to go to bars.

To hang out when you're trying to.

Be sober or even like, I mean you just, or you're not going to go to the lounge, you know, the Delta lounge when you're on, go on to flights like places where, you know, you can easily access alcohol. You're not going to go down the wine aisle or the, or the bigger aisle at the store. You're going to stay away from that. That's just common sense. And I say in the same way with porn, you need to get away from those places where you would watch porn. And I would say like if your computer was in a private place where it was, you know, you were able to keep it in secret. Bring that computer out in the open if you have to use it for work purposes.

Drag stuff out into the light.

Exactly.

You can't keep stuff in the darkness, you got to bring it into the light.

Exactly.

Insist on your spouse doing it to come back to that spouse that wants to have a porn free marriage, spouse is doing it. Insist on it, say, listen, our marriage won't survive. You gotta sometimes be this blunt. If you choose these false images over your real spouse, we won't survive. So you've gotta make a decision. And if you're willing to break free from it, I'm willing to help, I'm willing to walk alongside you and help you get whatever help you need to get freedom from this. But if you're just going to defiantly keep doing it, then you are choosing, you're choosing to end our relationship because you're choosing to live in perpetual infidelity. And that's not a marriage.

Exactly.

And so you've got to be that blunt. If you need help to kind of really work through this, talk to a Christian counselor together or talk to someone on our team. We have great, great marriage mediators. Here, you can go to xomarriage.com help and they would meet with you by phone, by Skype, or you can come to our office here in South Lake, Texas, and they would be happy to meet with you in person here. But there are resources available, and we want to make sure that, you know, you don't have to figure this out on your own, but do something. Don't just stay stuck. You don't have to get the help that you need.

That's exactly right. And I'm telling you, there are a lot of resources out there. If you follow some of the sites that we've already mentioned, like the Instagram pages, they have some additional resources there as well. But I think the main thing is don't keep on doing what you're doing. It has to be addressed. Things don't change by avoiding them. And you have to agree that it's wrong. But I think mainly I want to say to the spouse who has. The spouse who has this porn addiction, we have to be so careful where our mind and heart goes, because it's very easy to just shut down emotionally, to shut down sexually, to really cut ourselves off from our spouse because we are so deeply wounded now. I do think there is a time where we need to process that. Like, we need to say, like, listen, I can't be sexually active with you for this time because I'm healing.

I'm healing. And in this healing, the marriage bed does not feel like a safe space.

It's not safe for me.

And that's totally understandable. That can't go on forever, right? But. And it can't even be as a punishment. It can't be like, I'm going to punish you by depravity. It's not that. It's for the healing, for my healing and for your healing. I think we need to take this time to pray, to kind of have a fast from that aspect of our marriage while both of us heal so that we can come back together in healing.

And I think agreeing on a time and saying, like, we're gonna do. We're gonna. One week, we're gonna. We're gonna pray together. I'm not gonna, like, push you out of my life.

If it's been like a really long. You might say, you know, 30 days.

Maybe it's a month. I just think it's gonna be different based on each couple. But I'm saying what I was going to say is, like, I think you could even start with a week. After a week, let's come back Together. Let's talk through this. Let's talk about the different things that we feel like God is teaching us. For the spouse that has the porn addiction. What are you doing? How's it been this week? How have the temptations been this week? And then you could extend it another week if you think you need to. I do think that it's going to vary from couple to couple. All those years ago, I can't remember what our kind of timeline was for that, but I do know we had a timeline, and we both felt in agreement. You know, we were. We had an agreement with this. But I think the main thing is you're talking through it. How you. How you rebuild that trust is just showing consistently the spouse who had the porn addiction, that you're willing to take the steps necessary to rebuild it, that you're not looking at porn, that you're willing to talk about it openly, that you're willing to share details, as many details as your spouse needs to hear, that no question is off limit. That's how you build that trust. And Dave was willing to do that for me. And I'm telling you, it wasn't an overnight thing. It wasn't like, oh, well, you know, I know you're not gonna look at it anymore. It's only been a week. It's fine. It wasn't like that. It was a process.

It was a process.

Lots of prayer involved, lots of trust in God. I feel like God even did a work in me of trusting him to work on Dave in this area through that time. But he also did a work in me to remind me when I was having moments of feeling kind of on my high horse, so to speak. Like, well, I would never do that to Dave. I would never break his trust and hurt him in this way. I felt like God really reckoned with me. Like, Ashley, you know, maybe porn's not your issue, but you have things you have to work on too. You have things in this marriage where you could do better. And so it was a time of growth. And growth is usually uncomfortable and sometimes painful. But I feel like we're stronger on the other side of it. Don't you, sweetie? Don't you think so, sweetie? And, Dave, thank you.

That doesn't waste anything.

You've been free from porn for. For a long, long time.

And I'm so thankful for that. But even now, like, I mean, just like a recovering alcoholic has to, like you say, don't hang out at the bar. I mean, I've got to be mindful of what we're watching on TV and.

The movies, even regular shows.

Yeah, like you watch Netflix or whatever and have some triggering images that can pop up in certain shows. And so like I just try to be mindful of that because I don't want, I don't want to awaken that, you know, my mind. But I am so thankful for the healing that really the deliverance. I mean God set me free and he can do it for you. I promise that he can. He can do it for your marriage. So guys, I hope this has been encouragement to you. I hope that our resources at Exomarriage can help you in that healing and growing process. And even if porn is not your issue or your spouse's issue, we all have our struggles and we've got resources here at Exomarriage to help hopefully with whatever that struggle might be. So thank you guys so much for tuning in today. God bless you. We'll see you next time. Bye guys.