How Often Should We Have Sex?

Well, hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, we are talking about sex today.

Oh, yeah.

And you know it's your favorite. And we know this because we can see what you watch the most. And the sex episodes are the most popularity.

You guys are into it. It's right.

Hey, we like to talk about it too.

We do.

I didn't used to, like, if you had asked me all these years ago, would you be like a world renown.

Sex expert, Ashley Willis. Oh, it's true.

And just even talk about though, this, when we got married, would you think this is what we would be doing?

No, I hoped. I hoped. I said, one day I want to talk to people all over the world about sex and I want to do it with that woman right there.

There we go. Well, so you knew it.

And my dream came true. My dream came true, so. But yeah, you gotta have a sense of humor because you actually won most gullible in your high school superlatives. She was voted by her peers. I'll also brag. She was also drum major, valedictorian, and homecoming queen. So let me just say this is the most accomplished human being imaginable. I married way out of my league. But despite all those other accolades, showing how brilliant she is, how beloved she is and was and always has been, there was a time when she was considered very gullible.

Now I would say a long period.

Of time as a sex expert and a mother of four boys living in a house with 10 testicles, this tin testicle home is no longer gullible at all. She is.

I don't know.

Oh, you're not. No, you're not.

It just was beaten out of me from just.

You've maintained your brilliance and warmth and femininity, but you've added to it this wit and this sexual. Well, I was gonna say prowess, but I was.

I could see prowess on your face.

Prowess was. What was it? And I will say that is true, but that's more personal.

That's for you, Swee.

Your sexual expertise.

We'll say, I don't know. I would not consider myself a sex expert, but I do take it very seriously that our audience evidently wants to hear what we have to say about sex.

Right? Because we'll say, hey, we're talking about in laws today. And you guys will kind of, eh, nah, we're talking about money today. You guys are like, eh, nah, it's a sex episode. You guys get the popcorn, and you pull up a chair, and we're glad that you're here. Listen to the other ones, too, though. That stuff's important, too.

We need all the information. But, you know, sex is a big part of marriage. And what we hear consistently from you guys is you say, you know what? I come back again and again again to naked marriage because you all are honest about it and you are real about it. And we're so glad to hear that, because we really feel like that's something really, among Christian circles. Like, back when we were getting married, it was hard to find places, like safe places, so to speak, where you could talk about sex, really ask questions about sex, and not feel embarrassed. And I'm so glad to hear that you guys find the Naked marriage podcast and Exo Marriage is one of those safe places.

Great compliments.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And we're honored. We take it very seriously, and we want to make sure that we're continuing to be that safe place. And so today, we're going to talk about sex in, like, such an honest way that we're really, you know, we're going to really talk about, like, how many times should a married couple be having sex? Every week, every month, however you look at it, sexual frequency is a big one. That's a big one. We get that question all the time. But also, like, what if it hurts? Like, what if it's not what I thought it would be? Or what if we're just going through, like, a dry season where we're just not having much sex? And, you know, what if my partner really thinks we should be having a lot of sex and I'm just not that interested? I mean, all the things. So we're gonna talk about it.

And so thank you for tuning in. Thank you for, like I said, you know, trusting us. And to build on what Ashley said a minute ago, when some folks have said, you guys represent kind of the first safe Christian space to talk about sex that I've ever experienced. Because my home, I didn't feel that safety. The school or the church I grew up in, it didn't feel like a safe place. If sex was brought up, it was brought up either as something that was kind of shameful or dirty, or it was just something that we swept under the rug and we didn't talk about at all. Or it was this broken message about it being just kind of a duty.

Yeah.

But not something intended for pleasure. And so having to unlearn a lot of the baggage that we get that's why we wrote the book the Counterfeit Climax a few years back to just kind of undo a lot of those counterfeit messages about sex and replace it with God's truth. And here at Exo Marriage, it's why we do a lot of what we do is just to help point back to the truth of God's intent for sex and marriage, which is still the best. And so a lot of times we get credit or compliments for coming up with stuff that God came up with a long time ago. We're just shining a spotlight back on it. But we are honored to be part of this conversation. And we're learning with you as we go. Like, we're not sitting in these chairs as experts, but as learners.

Well, because as we've talked about before, sex doesn't look the same the entirety of your marriage. I mean, it's something just like our bodies are changing. We go through different periods in our own mental health too, which can affect our sex life. Our relationship can go through changes where we maybe we don't feel like we're each other's safe place. And then that really affects our sex life. And so, you know, it's not, it's not like you just have one conversation with your spouse about sex and you're like, okay, you said this many times per week. Okay, we said we're gonna do, you know, these particular, you know, like, these positions are okay, and these positions aren't okay. Like, I mean, it's not like that. You may, in one season, you know, you might like some positions in one season. You may want to consider some others, you know, And I know right now some of you are squirming even like, oh, my gosh, they said positions. But if you want to know more about this, look up Christian sex positions on our YouTube channel and you'll get some ideas. And you're going to laugh a lot, too.

I'm not flexible enough for half of them.

Well, it gives you a goal.

Some of them look, it's stick figures. It's non pornographic because, you know, porn is no place to go for anything, especially for thinking you're going to be taught anything instructional because none of it's real. But with stick figures, you know, they show different poses, different positions.

Yep.

And some of them look really creative and some look fun and pleasurable, and others look anatomically impossible. Thank you. I'm like, what's going on there?

I'm like, is it a chair involved? It seems like a chair floating in midair. Yeah. Like, what's Happening.

But the whole point of that video, too, is, like, to be able to laugh and you have to keep your sense of humor in your sex life.

Yeah.

And I know this is a long intro to get to the question. You guys are like, come on, just tell us how often we get to have sex. We're gonna get there. Calm down.

Well, it's not even just about that.

It's not just about that, because the mentality you have about sex really fuels everything else, including the frequency. And if you're approaching it with an unhealthy or an incorrect mentality, then the frequency, that's a moot point. It's like, that's not even. You're asking questions in the wrong order. First is, how can we have a healthy view of sexual. How can we make sure that we are connected as husband and wife, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, on all levels? How can we best serve each other inside and outside the bedroom? Like, if you're asking all of these questions, then the issue of frequency, it becomes a whole lot clearer. But if you start with the frequency question, then what happens is if things aren't healthy and it's one person that's pushing for sex and the other one is feeling disconnected, then that frequency question can almost be used as a weapon. It's like a weaponized topic to point to Scripture in Corinthians where it says, see, the Bible says, do not deprive each other sexually. And, you know, they'll take that one verse out of context and they'll use it as like, a weapon to somehow coerce their spouse into thinking, you're on call for me. You have to say yes whenever I'm in the mood. And completely misunderstand how, really the bedroom, the marriage bed, has to be the safest place on earth for both people. Now, obviously, that verse is true. Every verse of Scripture is true. And we do need to prioritize sex, and we do need to work to not deprive each other. But when that verse is being used out of context as a coercive tool, it's actually putting a bigger wedge between the couple. And the sex that you are going to have with that hanging overhead is going to be more mechanical, and it's going to be less spiritual connected. And it actually could be the kind of sexual activity that. That drives you farther apart instead of bringing you closer together.

You know, I'm glad you brought up the word mechanical because, you know, I think when it comes to having a great sex life, like we've said on here many times, it starts outside the bedroom. It's all those things you did leading up to the time when you're actually going to have physical intimacy. Because really, in order to have a great, you know, sex life, you need to have great intimacy on all levels. And so it starts with your conversations. And if your conversations are forced and you're just ticking a box, and they're mechanical, and they're never really specific, like, I'll give an example. Like, let's say men, you're. You're like, I don't understand why my. My wife says she doesn't really feel, like, adored by me. I mean, I tell her she's pretty. I go to work, and I work hard for this family. You know, I. I do go on a date with her. I mean, yeah, maybe we go to, like, a sports place, and I'm watching sports while we're on the date. But, I mean, what else does she expect? Like, this is. And I know this is, like a very. I'm giving, like, a stereotype. But these are things in the counseling space, okay, that we have heard at times where, you know, and this is just for the man. I'm talking about the woman. In just a minute. But, you know, the men will get really frustrated because they're like, I mean, what else does she want? I'm doing these things. I'm showing her love. Like, I'm showing her by my actions. And, you know, what ends up is the wife doesn't feel the door, doesn't feel loved because he's not really engaging with her in the way that she will feel loved, but through conversation by specific compliments, like, in. Instead of just saying, I said you're pretty, it's like, you know, tell her why. Like, what is it about her that's pretty? Is it the way that the sun hit her face that day and how it reminded you of how when you first saw her, like, how something stuck out about her because it was like she was the only woman in the room, whatever it is. And, you know, some of you are rolling your eyes right now, but, you know, there is something specific, and maybe that's not normal for you. Maybe that's not comfortable for you. And you're like, ashley, that would just be so. Just different for me to do that. And I would just encourage you. Try it. You will literally knock your wife's socks off. And she'll be like, you really thought that about me? It's more than just pretty. It's something specific. It makes her feel connected to you because you noticed, like, if you want to have a better sex life, start with being a noticer of the specific things you love about your spouse. And I think women in general, okay, not all women, but a lot of women, we tend to be better at noticing things. We're more. We're generally. And you can look this up, okay. Like, we're generally more detail oriented. We're generally more. More, you know, intuitive, like, by nature. And we're. We're looking for things a lot, whereas a lot of men are more big picture. Right? And we. I mean, you can look at studies with this. And again, this is generalizing here. There definitely are outliers. But, you know, so if you feel like maybe as a man, you know, for the men listening, that you're not good at this, I mean, don't feel like, well, I can't try. Oh, well, I guess I just. I'm not good at noticing. I would just encourage you to just start noticing. Like, start being intentional and start small. I mean, it could be just by thinking about what you appreciate about your wife and then actually thank God for it and then verbalize it to her and just start. Start really connecting with her in that way through conversation. And that really creates an emotional intimacy and a trust that maybe you haven't had before. And naturally, when we as women feel like we're being noticed, feel like we're being treasured and adored, then we naturally feel like we want to connect with you more physically because we feel like we can trust you. We're connected. We've built that foundation of intim. And that really can lead more to the physical aspect of it. And when it comes to men, we're.

Wound up kind of opposite.

It's kind of opposite.

We're women, by God's design. He made us all this way. So it's not that either side is wrong. It's that we're meant to serve each other and to harmonize with each other.

Yes.

So women, they want to connect emotionally first, and then the physical, the sexual follows. For men, we tend to want to connect sexually first. And then when that needs being met, then naturally we want to adore and we want to. But it's harder, I guess, for us to say, no, I want to do all those things of emotional connecting just because my wife loves it. Whereas not like, okay, well, she needs this. So I'm just gonna kind of go through the motions and hold her hand and do these things where it feels inauthentic because she knows, okay, I see what he's doing. He's Just checking off boxes, thinking it's gonna lead to the bedroom.

Exactly.

And he's thinking, well, what else am I supposed to do? Because, yeah, I want to get to the bedroom. So I'm doing these things for you. And it takes both people being willing to serve. It takes the husband being willing to give a lot of non sexual physical affection. Guys, that means be affectionate with your wives with no expectation that it's going to lead to the bedroom. This is a primary desire for most women. That you'll show affection, warmth, kindness with your words, that you'll put your arm around her, that you'll rub her feet, you'll rub her back, all those things without thinking.

All right, okay, let's have sex now.

Yeah, that's where this leads. That's why I did it. Because then it feels transactional and it cheapens the whole experience. And so you have to be willing to serve each other just for the joy of serving each other. Now granted, if this gets one sided, then that's off balance too. If the wife is always expected to, all right, do something sexual for me, and she's expected, and then her needs aren't being met in any way, that's obviously, that's way off. And if the guy is expected to do everything around the house and give me a back rub and be affectionate and do all these things, but it's like, and knowing that he has this primary need and it's not always the husband with the higher sex drive. By the way, we're kind of talking in these terms because around 80% of the time it seems it is the husband, about four out of five husband that has the higher drive, but about one out of five times it's the wife. But just for the sake of continuity, we're kind of giving these scenarios as if the husband is the one that has the higher drive, even though that's not always the case. But the bottom line is both spouses have to be willing to serve each other's needs and gain delight just from serving each other. And to see sex not as serving one spouse, it's not that sex serves him and it's a duty for her. We're not trying to say that at all. It might be a higher need for him, it might be a higher drive for him, but by God's design, sex is meant to be mutually enjoyable. He created the female anatomy with more pleasure receptor nerve endings on your erogenous zones even than men have. So you're designed for even more pleasure if the husband will take his Time and prioritize your pleasure. And both spouses need to prioritize each other's pleasure, but not just sexual pleasure. Pleasure in making each other laugh. Pleasure in making sure that you know how much they mean to you. And you might think, well, I'm not great with words. I'm not poetic. I don't know how to be that complimentary. Well, you can be nice, can't you? I mean, you can be courteous. Start there. You can say thank you and mean it. When your wife does something that you notice and it's good. You can. You can be complimentary. You can have a warm tone in your voice. Yeah, start there. You know, romance is a word that intimidates a lot of men. Replace the word romance with the word thoughtful. Thoughtfulness. You can be thoughtful. You don't have to write French poetry to be thoughtful. But when you're in the grocery store and you walk by the flowers, you can think, my wife would probably love some flowers and throw some in the cart. Or even more practical, you can walk by the chip aisle and see her favorite chips, that even if you don't like them, and you can grab a bag for her. You're like, I don't like these, but I know you do. I was thinking of you. It just shows you were on my mind, and I want to make you smile.

And that's another way of noticing. I want to touch on something that you were talking about as far as serving each other. We've talked a lot about kind of men, what you can, but women in the same way, we can't just wait around for our husband to do these things that we just described. You know, what we can do is we can prioritize sex. Like, we can prioritize making sure that we initiate. We don't always wait for him to initiate. And actually, it reminded me kind of in the early years of our marriage. You know, it was very clear early on that Dave had a higher libido than me. And I had a lot of hangups. I've shared on here before. I had a lot of just hangups about sex. It wasn't really talked about in my home. And I think my parents were just trying to protect me and keep me chaste. But it kind of, like, backfired to where it was like, kind of. You know, I saw it almost as dirty, and I didn't want to have sex before marriage. So I just really had this, like, switch that I just, like, turned that part of me off. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's I'm married and I have the go ahead and I'm supposed to all of a sudden make this switch. And it was hard. It was an adjustment. But I remember within that first year or two, you know, you came to me and you were like, you know, sweetie, I feel like I'm always the one initiating sex. And you'll always say, like, and, you know, you're good about being honest about if you're in the mood or not, or even just willing to, you know, make out and see if we can have a good sexual experience. But he said, I really, I would love it if you would initiate. And I remember I was kind of perplexed by the whole statement because I looked at him and I said, well, honey, I feel like I never really even get a chance because you're always, you know, you're beating me to it. You know, if I'm trying to initiate.

Every 30 seconds, it does make it difficult for you to be the initiator.

Well, I mean, do you remember me telling you that? And I was like, yeah, I think.

About it like, oh, yeah, yeah, I need to give some space for you to have the chance to be the initiator. And.

And then it kind of got me, like, I thought, I'm going to look at this as something new and exciting because it's easy to feel like, especially once this is when we didn't have children. Once we had children, I remember I went through a phase of sex being another thing on the list, which we've talked about before, and I had to shift my thinking.

It's so typical when you're exhausted and you're right, baby, when there's so much going on.

Exactly. And you're wearing so many hats, so to speak. And it adds to what, you know, we've talked about here before. The mental load feels like it's just another thing. And we can feel pressure. And pressure for women is just a libido killer. I mean, it just really is. And I remember in that season, I had to kind of. I think we came back to it again. I think you addressed it again, and this is many years later, but you were like, sweetie, I feel like I'm, you know, the only one initiating. And I just wanna. Is there anything I could do differently? I mean, just really a sweet conversation. And in those times when you pointed out how I wasn't initiating, I really, you know, at first I was, you know, of course, in my human nature, you know, you feel like, well, gosh, okay, now I need to think about how I'm gonna initiate. But I remember I kind of, in my prayer, you know, like in one of my prayers, I was like, how can I look at this with excitement and make it fun? Like, make it fun. And I remember I tried to find ways to just make it fun to initiate with you. Like, hey, come home for lunch. The kids are sleeping. Not telling you that I thought we could have sex, but then coming to the door in something really pretty and being like, we're not just having lunch, we're going to have dessert, wink, wink, you know, and like, I just tried to make it fun. And you guys, like, that's not necessarily, at the time especially, was not a natural thing for me. Would you say it wasn't? Like, I just naturally, like, would come up with these things? Like, I had to be intentional about that.

Yeah. And I appreciated because I knew that that was stepping out of your comfort zone.

Way, way out of my comfort zone.

I would go over, over the top to just show my appreciation for you, not just for being willing to have sex, but really my appreciation for you to have the courage to step out of your comfort zone for us to do, just for something that was gonna help us move forward and so cheer each other on with that stuff.

Yeah. And I remember there was one time I was like, I need to step up my underwear game here. You become a mom. You're nursing. It's just not real sexy, guys. And I was like, you know, I need to step this up. I, like, literally went to Victoria's Secret. I had one of the ladies help me and got some really pretty things. And I remember we were going on a little getaway, like a one night getaway. And during the day, I think I mentioned to you at one point, I was like, I have something new underneath. And it got you really excited. And then I initiated that night. So it's like, it doesn't have to be complicated or expensive. I mean, you don't even have to go to Victoria's Secret. Like, Amazon has some really pretty stuff.

Neither Victoria's Secret nor Amazon are currently sponsors of the Naked Nerd podcast. No.

You could be.

Call us.

We wouldn't. That's right, call us. I think that, I mean, you can, in different seasons, like, just maybe surprise your husband by saying, hey, I looked up the Christian sex position, stick figures, and I want to try this airplane position. Literally, their name, things like that. Like, I want to try airplane tonight. Okay. We are going to take it to the skies.

If you want to join the Mile.

High Club, the Mile High Club from a comfort of our own bedroom. But it's like, you know, just being kind of just adding some fun and spice and getting out of your comfort zone a little bit. I mean, and I want to say this with a caveat. I mean, don't do anything that brings shame. That makes you feel ashamed or disgusted or is triggering to you. Obviously, don't. I'm not saying do it to your detriment, but things where you're like, I want to get excited. I want to keep, you know, sex exciting and serve my spouse in this way, but also kind of, you know, end up really enjoying it myself. And be creative with this because God gives us that freedom. And just think about, what can I do? Like, what would be something really neat? And it could be where you're having sex. It could be what you're wearing before you have sex. It could be using. You know, we've talked about, like, some people are really into toys. Like, I mean, you can explore that maybe you're using. You know, we have a new affiliate. Every sensation. Look it up. It's E V R E E. It is an edible lube. Okay? It's like a cream that you can use as lube. It's also edible. And you can be having lots of fun with that. So, like, just trying new things. Even just. I mean, Dave has the goofiest grin on his face right now, you guys. The goofiest grin.

I mean, from when we first met to now. You sang edible lube in front of microphone.

My mom would be blushing right now. I'm sorry, Mom.

I'm just so delighted at the story of our life that God continues to repeat.

Well, true story. I got married while we were. I was still in college. Like, they literally graduated one day one Saturday. We got married the next Saturday. So, like, I guess a few weeks before we got married, all my sorority sisters went to the small little Christian college and, you know, very Greek campus. And all my sorority sisters, I was one of the only ones getting married around that time. And so they were like, we gotta throw her a lingerie party. And they knew, you know, that we were waiting until marriage to have sex. And so they're like, she don't have anything. So literally, they bought me all this sexy lingerie. But also, I've never seen so much KY jelly in my life. Like, every kind of KY jelly they made. Like, the warming kind, the jelly kind, the liquidy kind. There's more kinds today. But I was like, I don't even. Like, I didn't even know you guys, I was so naive. I didn't even know even what it was used for, to be honest with you at the time.

And I'm like, what's this for?

And there wasn't all the Google access. And I was like, what is this? I don't even know.

We were in the dark ages.

I know, but I remember I was so embarrassed. Like, I'm opening these. My mom's there, my grandmother's there. I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, like, I just couldn't even. I was like, it's beautiful. Thank you.

And then I.

And then I opened up the lube, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm pretty sure some of your sorority or some of your fraternity brothers got you hu. They. They have huge portions of KY jelly. Like, huge. And, like, you had some too. And then here we're going home with totes of all this. And I was so embarrassed, but now I'm like, telling people about it.

The thing about lube, you know, while we're just go down this rabbit trail real quick. Okay. You know, you. You mentioned dry seasons earlier. Hey, that can be.

You guys write us about this.

Figurative or literal in your sex life or both, or one can lead to another.

That is true.

Lube helps. But what they don't talk about in the lube commercials is certain lubes can irritate you, depending on allergies, depending on just kind of your skin consistency. Some are water based, some are oil based. And so if you try a lube and it doesn't work or doesn't feel right or it makes you feel irritated, don't just think, oh, well, now there's no hope for us because we need something. And that lube didn't help. Now that lube didn't help, right?

There's so many. There's even some natural things like coconut oil or safflower oil or. I mean, there's others. You can look it up in the.

Cooking section of your store that are all natural and can work great as long as you don't have an allergy, of course, to those particular ingredients. So find something that works for you.

That's right. And he was talking about dry seasons, and we needed to have more on this because we are getting. I'm not in menopause yet. I'm 43, but I know I'm quick. I think I am in perimenopause. I'm almost positive I had a hysterectomy. I just had a hysterectomy.

In January, which has been great for your health.

Best thing. Should have done it a long time ago.

Your menstrual cycle was ridiculous. Violent. Like, I mean, it was not a natural. Like, the amount. It was just. It took a lot out of me.

I've been anemic the entire time I've had it, which, I mean, I should have taken clues, but.

And it kept getting worse.

It did.

And it was going to keep getting worse all the way to menopause. So I'm so glad that your doctor recommended this and that you went through with it. It's for us, for you.

It's been great.

It's been great. Your energy level all the way around has been great. But it does. You know, it's a big surgery, and it changes a lot. And so you kept your ovaries, as you've said on here.

I did.

And so you're still gonna. You're still gonna eventually go through some of the.

I'll go through menopause. Yeah.

Even without.

I won't have the period parts of menopause, but I'll have everything else. And so with that, so many women write us and say there's just a change in your body chemistry and your hormones, where there's a dryness, and it can even hurt. And so I'm so glad you brought up lube, because God doesn't want us to suffer, and he doesn't want sex to be hurtful, and we certainly don't want to hurt each other.

Or I feel like we got to stop altogether now.

Right? Exactly.

Well, I guess. I guess.

I guess we'll never have it again, you know? And it's like, no, no, no. Like, there are things that can help to make it more comfortable for both of you, and. And just to think outside of the box of all the different ways you can engage in sexual things that aren't necessarily intercourse. And, you guys know, like, our most popular episode is the oral sex episode. I mean, there's. There's a lot of freedom that God gives us, because that's the biggest question, too, is like, oh, my gosh, is this something where we have to do this and feel ashamed? You know, we like it, but we feel ashamed.

And, guys, it's supposed to be fun. If you're a married couple and your sex life isn't fun, you're doing it wrong. Right. And I don't mean wrong like, in a shameful way, like, oh, you know, I mean, I'm trying to take the shame off of you.

Right, Right.

God wants you to Enjoy. Should be passionate and playful, and it should be a gift to both of you. And if it's not for one or both of you, then have the conversations with each other, maybe even with the counselor. Talk about, well, what are some of the root issues or the core beliefs that are sabotaging this thing? That should be a great gift and making it feel like it's not a great gift.

That's right. And so let's talk about this, sweetie. Let's talk about lopsided sex drives, which is such a common struggle. Like, what should a couple do in this scenario? Because we often have. It's either a husband or a wife who writes us and says, I have a high thriving sex drive, and I feel like my spouse is just never interested. You know, great question. And it could be for a lot of reasons. You know, I think sometimes when, you know, we're initiating with our spouse and we feel like we're always shut down because they're tired or because they're just not in the mood or because they're just not feeling up to it, whatever it is. I mean, there's a lot of reasons, and we absolutely have license to say no. I mean, absolutely. But so this is never to, like, you know, like you said, the duty. I mean, but we do want to serve each other. You know, don't use the word duty, but we do use the word serve. And so it's important that we don't dismiss this. And, you know, we normally have those of you who do have the higher sex drives write us because you feel like you're starving when it comes to sex.

Right. And not only starving sexually, but the hurt of rejection in the most intimate way. Because when you are trying to initiate sex with your spouse and you're consistently rejected. I'm not talking about, sweetie, I'm really tired. I'm really tired tonight. Could we do another. I'm talking about just like any excuse to not do it over time, that creates a real wound that's on top of the sexual frustration. It's an emotional wound. And so, first off, if you have lopsided sex drive, just know you're not alone. I think almost every married couple experiences this. Whether it's usually the man that has the higher drive, sometimes it's the woman, but almost nobody has the same sex drive.

Yeah. And maybe even in different seasons.

Right. In different seasons. You know, they might go through a time when one drive is really high and then it can kind of flip, flop, or that high drive can go down because of health issues. Or hormone changes or stress or life events or a myriad of other factors. And through every season of life in marriage, you have to. You have to just adapt to that, right? Because it's going to. We do a talk called Seasons of Sex. We've done a podcast episode on that as well, talking about how sex is going to look different in different seasons. And coming back to this frequency question, which I promise we are going to give some specific answers to before we sign off. We're giving all this kind of foundation for it, though, because like I said earlier, starting with just what's the right frequency? And negating the whole conversation, that's the foundation for it. Then it's really. It creates an untrue answer, certainly an incomplete answer. But in different seasons, it's going to look different. When you're newlyweds and you know, you're excited, there's no distraction, you don't have kids yet, you're probably going to have more frequency than once the babies start coming and you're exhausted and people are pulling at you. And then as the babies get older and you're getting on a sleep schedule again, hopefully it should pick back up. I think that there should be. There could be a renewal when. Even when there's an empty nest and you have the house yourself again. But in the midst of all that, you have hormone changes, body changes, other factors that can greatly impact this. And so just have a lot of patience for each other and assume the best in your spouse. If your spouse who has the lower drive, instead of thinking, she never wants me, every excuse is more important than me. For me, sex is my. Because guys will write, they'll have thoughts like this, like, sex is my number one need and she's the only one who can meet it. And she's willing to do anything else, like the dishes are more important to her or doing, finishing this or getting with her friends. All that's more important to her. Anything's more important to her than my number one need. And if she had a number one need that only I could meet and I never met it, she would leave. She would say, he clearly doesn't love me. And you start thinking about it in these terms where you create these scenarios in your head that probably aren't true. There's some validity, but you're letting your own hurt feelings kind of blind you from the truth. The truth might be that she's feeling overwhelmed. And when a woman is feeling overwhelmed with life, with stress, sex is the last thing on her mind. She approaches the whole idea and concept of sex completely different. By God's design, men and women do that. And so instead lean in and say, what can I do to lighten her load? What can I do to help serve around the house? To help lighten her load? And when you're trying to do those things and it's still not happening with anywhere close to the frequency than you want, then you have to start having those deeper conversations about, listen, I love you. I'm trying to be patient, but this is a huge need of mine. I feel like we're not connecting in this area. Try to not blame, Try to not say, because you never want to, but it's just use we as much as we can.

And the I statements about how you feel.

What? Yeah, this is how I'm feeling. I feel like we are not prioritizing this. I want to make it a bigger priority. What can I do? I mean, start talking that way. If it's still not happening, I think talk to a counselor. Let your spouse know, like, listen, this might be awkward to talk to someone else about this, but this has gotten to an emergency level. And I want to talk about any issue, not just this one, but any issue you want to talk about. But we've got to address this because I'm dying here. I feel like we're drifting apart without this. In addition to just a physical need not being met, I feel like that emotionally, spiritually, we're drifting apart because sex is part of the glue God designed to keep us together. And the people who write us, men and women who feel constantly rejected by their spouse, they're the most heartbreaking emails and Instagram messages that we get because they just. You can almost hear the. The frustration and even hopelessness in their tone. And so when you're consistently denying your spouse, even if it's not your intent, know that you're consistent. I'm not saying, like, we made very clear. We all could say no sometimes, but when it's consistently no, no, no, those are daggers in the heart of your spouse. And what they're hearing when you say no over and over is, I don't love you. I don't value you. Your needs aren't important to me. I'm not attracted to you. You're an annoyance. I mean, they're hearing those things even if none of that is your intent.

Right.

And so we just have to be so delicate with each other.

Delicate is so true. Be tender, be delicate, be kind. Always. And I think assume the best, because I think when we're starving sexually, or maybe Just starving for connection, starving for intimacy with our spouse. We tend to assume the worst because we have this need that's not being met. And the longer we go without that connection, without that conversation, the more we just. We're not communicating. So of course we're assuming the worst. And, you know, I remember we talked a lot about men kind of having the higher sex drive. You know, like, we talked about seasons can look a little different. I've had a lot of pregnant women write us, and for a lot of women, not all, but for a lot of women, their libido goes higher during their pregnancy. Like, they have a higher libido, a higher need for sex while being pregnant. And I've had a lot of pregnant women write me and say, my husband, I don't know if he's grossed out by me being pregnant. I don't know what's going on, but he doesn't want to have sex as much. And I even feel like he's almost like just going through the motions and not really engaging. And I remember several of them, I told him, I said, listen, have you ever asked him what's going on? Like, have you ever really asked him, why is there this difference? And I'm telling you, I would say 80% of the time when these ladies write back and they actually had a conversation with their husband, and it's not that the husband is disgusted at all. A lot of husbands find their wife even more attractive when she's pregnant because she's carrying his child and she's glowing and it's just this beautiful time. But a lot of the husbands that were kind of not engaging in sex as much or seemed to have hesitation, it was because they were scared that they were gonna hurt the baby. This was a whole new season. They didn't know. They were like, am I gonna hurt something?

Right. Everything's new and different and. And you're like, I don't want to hurt something. And so, yeah, like, they're like, how does this work?

I mean, people don't really talk about that. They don't really say, oh, and you can have sex normally unless you have some kind of medical issue or, you know, you're an at risk pregnancy. Right, Right. So, I mean, I think, you know, that's a clear case of just making. We make these assumptions and really we just need to ask. Like, when we approach our spouse with a posture of curiosity that is so disarming. Like, when we really come to them and we say, listen, hey, why? I felt like lately you just don't seem as interested in sex and you know what's going on in your mind. Am I doing something that's turning you off, or is there something going on with you that you just haven't told me? I just am really. I'm just curious to know what's happening. You know, that's not accusing. That's not assuming. It's just curious. And I feel like. But curious is a good place to be, because when you're curious, it's really. It's giving them the benefit of the doubt and the chance to give you an answer. And I think it's just important that we have that posture of curiosity, especially when it comes to sex, because I think so many times, and I've been so guilty of this so many times, we don't even really know what's going on in our spouse's mind because we just didn't ask them.

Yeah, don't assume. Assume. And even if you think you know how they used, they would have responded.

Exactly.

You don't know how they're going to respond now through the different seasons of marriage, through all the changes. So you keep learning, keep growing, stay curious. I love that. That's great marriage advice. All right, guys, we're going to try to, very specifically now, as advertised, talk about this frequency question. You guys finally, finally get like, 40 minutes in, they're talking about it, but hopefully all that other stuff was every bit as important.

Well, there are questions to discuss.

There are things to discuss. And if you really want to have more frequency, all that other stuff, you got to talk about all that other stuff. You can't just hit a magic button, and all of a sudden your sex life triples. Like, it's. You have to do these other things. And so I hope that that helps create a foundation. Like everything we do, it's really more than anything designed to help spark meaningful conversation in your marriage. To the frequency thing, you're first asking, what's normal? All right, well, normal is a dangerous word, first of all, because what's normal to one is not normal to somebody else. And frankly, a lot of what the world calls normal is broken. And so I think it's okay to look weird and not normal sometimes. But what is common, like the average marriage.

Average person?

Years ago, on our Facebook marriage page, which had about a million followers at the time, and people were on Facebook a lot more back then, and there was a season where polls were all the rage on Facebook. You could post a poll on a public page and people could vote. You didn't See the answer. You didn't see the statistical breakdown until after you voted. And people were really into it for a while. This would have been in the dark ages for you young people. You're like, what's Facebook?

Well, they do polls on Instagram now. Yeah, it's a little different, but yeah.

So on one of these old Facebook polls, which at the time had a ton of traction. Oh, yeah, a lot of people voted. It was our most popular poll. And it was a two part. It was just two options said, how often do you and your spouse have sex? And the two options were once a week or less. And the other option was twice a week or more because you can only put two options. And that was the easiest way we could break it down. So once a week or less, twice a week or more. And do you remember?

No. I know some statistics on this, but I don't remember what that poll said in particular.

Well, I remember being surprised that between those two options, of all the many, many, many people that clicked on it, it was an almost even split, really.

Okay.

Between once a week or less and then those are twice a week or more. That means once a week or less could be consistently, we have it once a week. Or it could be like a sexless marriage where it's like, I'm dying here, we're never doing it. And then twice a week or more could be we consistently do it twice a week or we consistently do it.

Every day, multiple times a day.

So there's a lot of variation even within those two categories. But when you look at those two categories and realize, all right, half the people, half the people are saying at least self reporting anonymously, so there's not really any reason to lie about it, that it's for them, they're only having sex once a week or less than that. And then half the people are having sex twice a week or more than that. Now in different seasons, it makes sense perhaps, where I would say the once a week might be healthy in certain seasons where there's exhaustion and there's a new baby in the house, or where you're going through some kind of health challenge, there, there are things where just if we're having just consistently, we're running in different directions, we're exhausted. But if, if we're connecting at least once a week sexually, then right now we're going to count that a win. Now I would say, though, for the most part, in most seasons of marriage and most couples, you're going to want to aim for that twice or more a Week place to say, like, for us, like, let's make like, if it's not. I would put it like this. If it's not happening at least once a week consistently, we're in emergency mode.

Right.

Like there.

If there's not like a diagnosis, a doctor's orders.

Right. Obviously, something like that.

Or let me just say this too. There's been an abuse situation.

You're healing from a serious breach of trust.

A breach of trust, yes.

Right. But apart from that, if it's not happening at least once a week, I think that needs to be that. If, if, if your, if your marriage has a dashboard with check engine lights that pop up like an old car does, that's a check engine light that's flashing. It's saying, like, if this isn't dealt with, this whole engine is going to explode. It's not happening at least once a week. I would say you have to treat it like an emergency. And you can't ride that out on autopilot or the whole, the whole marriage is just going to crumble. Yeah. A sexless marriage will rarely survive. And then twice a week, I say, like, for most couples, that can be a healthy, just a kind of a healthy standard goal. Like, all right, like, if we're just in the rhythm of life, we can prioritize having sex twice a week. And if it, if some weeks, you know, we missed that second time, at the very least, we know we're going to have sex at least once. But on good weeks, hey, hey, like, let's. Maybe it's going to be three, maybe it's going to be four. I mean, who knows?

It could be whatever kind of deciding your baseline. I mean, we are big fans about putting sex on the calendar, so to speak. Even if it's in the calendar in your mind, like, you know, it could be. We aim for every other day. Like, we just want to make sure that, you know, we go every other day at least. And then we build on that. Or maybe like you said, like Tuesdays and Fridays, like, we know we're gonna have sex on those days because when you have kids and busy jobs, sometimes you just have. You literally need to put it on the calendar. Because things that we prioritize we put on our calendar. Like, if we want something to happen, we're gonna put it on the calendar. And you guys, we all have these devices in our hands where we can easily access it. We can even join with our spouse and know their calendar. And if you put that, put a little hot, like a little fire sign you know what it means, and you can look forward to it and prepare your mind for it and your heart for it and your schedule and your kids and make sure everybody's situated so that you can make that a priority. You're going to experience the blessing from that, like, the blessing that it is to know that you're connecting and being intimate on all levels, you know? And so if you know that sex is on the calendar and, you know, you're gonna want to make sure you're having those conversations throughout the day that are really building up your spouse and, like, filling their love tank, so to speak, and making them feel, you know, extra connected to you, because you're gonna have this outpouring of the physical experience of sex. And I want to say this, too, that, you know, sometimes you may not. When we say sex, we don't just mean intercourse. And I think that's important to say here, too. Maybe one of those times during the week you can engage in full intercourse, but you do something else sexual together. You know, it's just that sexual connection that you're experiencing, and that might spice it up a little for you. You know, oral sex, like we talked about before, can be something to consider. You know, there could be just your making out and having sexual connection in that way. I think this can look a lot of different ways. You know, we've shared with you very honestly on here. When I had my hysterectomy In January of 2023, I was given doctor's orders that we could not have intercourse for three months. He said. I mean, every time I had my doctor's appointment, he's like, you cannot have intercourse. I think he told me more than the average person because he knows what we do for a living. But I'm like, okay, I know he.

Knows you can't stay away from me.

I know. He's like, I know you can't keep your hands off that hint. But, you know, it was because he wanted me to heal properly.

Of course. Yeah.

And of course I'm gonna listen to that. But we knew that that, to us, was not like. That wasn't like saying, oh, we're having no sexual connection for three months. It just gave us an opportunity to be. To be creative. And so, you know, maybe that's you. Maybe you're going through a season where, for whatever reason, you can't have intercourse, but that doesn't mean you can't engage sexually. So, like, think outside the box.

Think outside the box. I love it. Well, guys, I hope that answered that important question or at least gave you a conversation starter. Because we never want to give answers as if here's the authoritative answer. Yeah, we want to share from our perspective. Share. If the Bible is clear about something, share from there, of course, as the authority. But ultimately just share what's helped us and what we think could help you as well. And we hope that that's been helpful and creates some meaningful, productive conversations. We'd love to hear from you. So let us know. Let us know in the reviews what you think about this. Let us know what you'd like to hear from in future episodes. You can write us on Instagram. Ave and ashleywillis. We love hearing from you there. We'd love to see at one of our live events coming up. We've got some great ones on the schedule. You can go to xomarriage.com conferences and find out when we're coming close to your area and we would love to see you there. So guys, keep prioritizing sex in every aspect of of your marriage. Keep growing closer together through every season. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you next time.