Marriage in Transition | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave and Ashley Willis

We've always believed that one of the best ways to create more health in your marriage, in your life, and every part of your life is really to connect with a healthy counselor over the years, to work through stress issues, anxiety issues, to just kind of help navigate life's different problems. And we're so excited to have a counseling partner now that's able to do this for you through the Internet. You don't have to go sit in an office. You can from your phone, from your computer, sit down with a licensed professional Christian counselor who is custom fit for you and for what you're facing and what you're experiencing.

That's right. And as listeners of this podcast, Faithful counseling is giving you 10% off your very first month. That's 10% off your first month. So you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this. Christian counseling is a game changer. So go today to getfaithful.com naked marriage. Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have an awesome episode for you today. We have our dear friends here, Sean and Lynette Reed.

Yeah, and Sean and Lynette are dear friends of ours. I mean, they're literally two of our favorite people. We love hanging out with them every chance that we get. They're part of the EXO speaking team. They've got two decades of ministry experience, and they're currently marriage and family pastors at Open Door Church in North Carolina. They're also the authors of a great new book called Marriage in Creating Connection Through Uncontrollable Change. And we're going to be talking about that book today. You can learn more about them@marriageandtransition.com or their ministry website, Seanandlanette.com and those links will be in the show notes. But I'm so excited about today's conversation with our dear friends, so let's dive in. Well, like we said during the intro, I am so, so excited about our guests today, our dear friends, Sean and Lynette Reed. Welcome to the podcast house.

We're so glad to be here with you guys today.

Yeah, y' all are some of our favorite people.

Some of our faves, too.

I'm having to fight the urge to, like, break social distancing protocols and crawl across the stable and just hug you during the entire interview. Like, oh, my gosh, it would be really awkward for, you know, maybe for you. I would love it just to hug you while we talk. But. But I know that I'm not allowed to do that for.

It's okay.

For many reasons. Pretend you're over here, but I'm there in spirit. I'm over there in spirit. But no, it's great to see you guys. It is.

And we are so excited to talk to you about all kinds of things because you guys are just such a. Just. You have so much knowledge and so much wisdom. But we're going to talk specifically today about your new book, marriage in Transition, which I love the title because every marriage is in transition, probably perpetually.

Yes.

But I think that there's some, you know, milestone transitions that every marriage goes through, and I just. I can't wait to hear your wisdom on this subject.

Yeah, we. About four years ago, Lynette and I, we were going through a few transitions, and then it kind of hit us that every time we were going through a specific scenario, whatever it was, we were kind of going on a cycle of some of the same issues just perpetually reoccurring within our relationship. And we started realizing that there were like, these seasonal tests that continued to pop up within our relationship. And we were like, I think we have to pass this test because our marriage continues to go through this same thing. And the only way to graduate from it is we have to learn to identify when our marriage is in transition and how do we grow from it. How do we get out of this. Right. And how do we prepare for the next season that's about to happen in our lives?

So, yeah. And we had to learn, you know, there were different triggers that were taking place. And so it didn't really matter the type of transition that we were going through, but behavior started to change and, you know, triggers started to take place. And we sat down and we were like, okay, every time there is a transition, this happens either between us or I'm always feeling this. And so we really had a heart to heart and out came a book.

Yeah, I love it.

Well, those are the best kind of books because you've walked it, you know.

And you guys really have walked it. Like, I've always been fascinated by you two because you have the wisdom of 85 year olds, but you look like 25 year olds. And I'm. And so I'm just like, how. How is that possible? But really, just your insight is something that's so, so rich. But you have lived through a lot of transition, and even recently, you know, you've become empty nesters. Yeah. You've moved across the country, you've Started a new ministry position, a new job. So you've had a decade's worth of transition or more just within the last two years. And so just in real time, kind of walk us through what marriage and transition has looked like for you guys just within these last couple years.

Yeah, well, all three of our children graduated high school and are all in college currently.

So we have a senior, a junior, junior, senior, cuz she's going to grad graduate early and then a sophomore.

Yeah, all in college at the same time. Pray for our budget and then at.

The same time maybe making much thought.

Yeah, yeah, we just had them. We had them back to back. You know, we need to set up.

A GoFundMe account we can let people know about. That's a lot. That's a lot of kids.

So that happened and then we were lead pastors of Crossroads church for like 15 years. And then God began to kind of shift us in a new direction to where now we're the marriage and family pastors at Open Door Church in North Carolina. So we moved from Texas to North Carolina. And all of that happened while our children were literally taking new steps into early adulthood. And that whole transition, just the. The change in our role in our mindset, I mean, it was a lot.

I mean, you know, like you said, we were at Crossroads for 15 years, and so that's a long time to have a steady job.

You know, a lot of relationships.

You know, there was nothing wrong, but God was just saying otherwise. And so not only do we have a different position, but now we're in a completely different area on the East Coast. You know, we've never lived there, and so there were just a lot of. Just new territories that we've never approached.

Yeah.

And all that happening while our joints are starting to change and things go, you know, snap, crackle and pop in spots that we never would have thought of. And I got gray hair popping up in random places.

Big deal right now with him.

Yeah.

Listen, gray hair needs to just decide what it's gonna be. Are we gonna be black and white? Are we gonna be all the way gray? What's happening with me?

I like the salt and pepper.

Really?

Well, I like the salt and pepper. But Ashley, when I first started going gray, it freaked her out. And so she.

You freaked me out.

I was just like, this is my story. So.

Okay, you got it.

Okay. So she gently suggested that I try Just for Men. Just Just for Men is not yet a sponsor of this podcast, though I did get a bottle for $8 on Amazon. And I tried it, and. And it felt like I was. I don't know, like I felt weird, like I was putting shoe polish on my head.

Yeah.

And I felt like I was a fraud. Like, I looked at myself and I'm like, man, my hair's black again.

But this.

This doesn't feel right. And so then I, like, let it grow back out, and I'm back to salt and pepper.

You're not handsome no matter what.

I feel much, much better. I'm just kidd. She wasn't freaking out about it.

Here's the thing, man. It's a sign of the times, bro. And it's just like, it's going to change. But have you changed? Have you adjusted to where you are now? And that's a reoccurring thing that pops up now as we're, you know, in our lives personally. And that's one of the things that we really discuss in the book. You have to root yourself in new moments on a continual basis. But you know, as well as we do that we like to become comfortable. And I don't say that in all cases, we resist change because sometimes change is good. If somebody came and said, we want to give you increase in how much you get paid on your job, most people like that change, you know, but it's where we're secure and safe. We're most comfortable relationally with our family and our environment. And all of a sudden, things really do change. We have to root ourselves in these new moments and say, who are we now?

Yeah, that sounds about to say, say those. Whether we believe it or not, we're tied to our. It's tied to our identity. And so when change happens, it really questions, okay, who am I really? Because I'm different. I looked in the mirror. It's like I'm a fraud. It's really setting all that aside and grasping the times, the age, whatever challenges are coming up, it's kind of like, who am I now?

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I'm turning 40 this year. You look good. And so. Oh, well, thank you. I will never look as young as you guys. We always are. Like, gosh, they age so gracefully. But I. You know, it does make you and Dave's.

Dave's 42.

Am I saying that right?

I can't remember how old I am. No. Yeah, 42.

And, you know, it does make you. I feel like the whole midlife thing, that's a real thing. And Dave and I, we tease about it because, you know, we've been in midlife or Achieve. Achieved midlife. Is it an achievement?

I don't know.

But in the middle of moving as well. And it does cause you to question a lot of things. And I think too, where a lot of the rub comes from with couples is that we process it differently, you know, And I think a lot of times, especially when it comes just specifically to the whole midlife change, you know, there can kind of be this identity crisis.

Absolutely.

And I think both of us have felt that to some extent, and I think with. With men especially, and we've. We've heard from people and then just living it, it can kind of sometimes manifest itself in frustration and anger.

Yes.

Because you. I mean, have you guys seen that? And, and I mean, talk to people, talk through that for a moment. Because I know a lot of our listeners can relate.

We may experience the same circumstances externally, but how we process it and respond to it is always going to be unique. The way if I go back to, you know, our first child, we had three children within two years, two and a half years. We had three children within two and a half years. And so that being said, how she felt about the pregnancy and what she dealt with, you know, postpartum depression or physical changes that she was going through. And in my mind, I was just like, this little child is taking up my time, you know, and I want. I want my wife back, and I'd like to have her now. And yet we're taking care of all the responsibilities there. She began to feel neglected because I was working extra time because my focus in that moment was we need more money and we need it quickly. And so I became really task driven in that.

And ultimately we become offended at one another, simple. Because we're going through the transitions differently. You know, I remember we were riding in a car with some friends of ours, and they're much older. And we started talking about the concept of the book. And she was beginning to talk about when they're. When their road to empty nesting and how she felt. And she was just kind of, you know, there were nights I cried and, you know, it was hard for me to get over. And he was like, I was happy, you know, but the thing is, he never really knew that she was crying those nights. He had no idea, the adjustment and the turmoil. And so just having a conversation of, how are you dealing with this transition? Even though this is a natural transition, everybody's gonna go through with it. I wanna know, how are you dealing with it so that we could be on the same page and so that I can meet Your need.

Yeah.

The way we say it is, transitions force decisions that test your togetherness.

Oh, yeah, that's good.

And that's the thing. Transitions force decisions that test your togetherness. And your marriage comes under fire when if I don't feel or empathize, more than sympathize, I have to empathize with what my wife is actually going through and hear her heart and then try to serve her while she feels what she feels and not invalidate those feelings and come against what it is that she's saying, not see it from her perspective and vice versa, then there's going to be this tension that exists right there and division ultimately can creep in. Or as I react in an unhealthy manner to her, or vice versa. What ends up happening is these negativist seeds, seeds of negativity are sown and dissension begins to come in. Because now I began to interpret my spouse according to how they reacted instead of going off of what I know to be true about my spouse, like, who are they?

Right.

This is God's child. This is my spouse. I love them. They're precious to me. We have history. And instead I only begin to see them according to what I disliked about who they've been in this last season.

Right. Yes.

And it's almost like we forget about everything that we know to be true about them and what's real and they're going through and they may be hurting in this moment, and we have to fight for the truth of who we are. And it goes back to what you were saying about identity.

You know, it's so true. And what would you say, just. Just for listeners to kind of get their minds going here, what are some major transitions that would you say most couples go through in life, like the milestone transitions, just to kind of be on the lookout for those.

Yeah. So the thing about it is it could be negative transitions, hard transitions, but it could also be great and celebratory type transitions. So definitely the birth of the first child.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

That.

That one's tough moving in. Actually, whenever you go through that moment where you really begin to process your wealth building together, when you start talking about legacy and budgeting together, that's huge because for a lot of couples that we even counsel recently, I mean, it's still. They've been together for 10 years, and it's still his money and her money.

Oh, yeah.

And so there's division even in how they manage their resources together. And so that transition for some has never happened into unity when it Came into finances. So I would say that I also look at it kind of those midlife crisis. I mean, that's serious. When you're hitting the edge of the hill or you're on the hill and you're at that spot where things are changing. I think other transitions are promotions on jobs or having to move to another city in some ways. And I know this is gonna sound, for some people, like, it's really small, but, I mean, moving from one neighborhood to another is huge. And then also getting to a point where empty nesting is beginning to happen, or when you're at that place where you're considering, hey, our parents are getting older, you know, and I was gonna.

Say caring for loved ones.

Yeah, the big one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so all of those. And if you are a parent and then your children are going through their own transitions where they're at the taller age, and then all of a sudden, you're talking about junior high. Lord God, junior high. And then high school is a whole.

Nother world all of your time.

Yeah. So in each of those different seasons, life looks differently, and challenges are going to hit us that we've never gone through together as a couple, as a team, and having a plan in each of those scenarios, because it's a different season, you have to literally rise to the level of that challenge and respond with unity. Otherwise, those, again, those transitions are going to test your togetherness.

You know, Our great friends Shawn and Lynette Reed have a new book out, and we are so excited to tell you about it. It's called Marriage in Transition. No matter what changes and transitions you face in your life, your marriage can make it. Sean and Lynette share from their own personal experiences about how to stay connected to your spouse even during uncontrollable change. You'll learn how to grow closer together to your spouse through conflict, how to understand your spouse's response to change, and how to create a plan of action that you can agree upon together. Get your copy of Marriage in Transition now@marriageintransition.com.

You know, take the example of someone gets a promotion on the job, but with, that's great. That's wonderful. You know, it moves you closer to financial freedom. But what they may not understand is with that promotion may come a little bit more responsibility on the job, maybe extra hours. You know, two, three years later, the other spouse may think, well, you don't have time for me anymore. We don't spend time together. Not really realizing that the beginning of that whole transition was with the promotion. And they just didn't sit down and say, okay, yes, yay, we got the money. But now what does it look like practically for our family? And how can we sustain that unity while maintaining.

While we're maintaining. More blessing.

Yeah, right.

With the. More. More children, more prosperity and all of that. When is our date time?

Right.

When are we going to travel? When are we going to help the kids with homework? I mean, it's simple things, but those things, all of a sudd. Huge issues. And so sometimes transitions, when we reveal a side of character that's displeasing to the other spouse, it causes a little bit of trauma. Right. And some of those, you know, we mentioned a lot of those different seasons and stages that are kind of the natural progression. But sometimes you also are dealing with grief. You know, you're dealing with the loss of a loved one or the loss of income. And we're reacting to, like, real pain and trauma that, you know, in a way we define. Trauma is just any experience that's too overwhelming for the mind or body to process appropriately. And that happens more often than we understand. And what happens is we have these traumatic experiences and we just kind of move on as if time will heal the wound, and it won't. And so we're battling, you know, these demons quietly, you know, that are going on internally, but individually. And we may not be speaking up about it, but we may be reacting to it. And it can be three, four years from when an event occurred, and we're still carrying some pain. And you are no longer the same person that you once were. And your spouse is just kind of like, what is happening?

What's going on?

You know, what's going on in there? And since they haven't dealt with it, it becomes like that traumatic experience becomes almost like a puppet master. And there are strings attached to a past circumstance that are kind of, you know, controlling the movement of who we are in the present. And unresolved trauma ultimately will echo into your future, and it'll cause reoccurring reactions in the present moment to pain and traumatic experience that have happened in the past. And so we got to get healed.

Healing is essential.

It really is. And there's so much, so much depth in that. And, you know, before we dive into question, kind of like just one, you know, one thing I'd love for you to weigh in on is that in transition, what we found, I mean, in our own marriage and in marriages of a lot of folks that we counsel and work with, is that usually each individual spouse processes things At a different pace.

Yes.

And so there's usually one spouse that is more comfortable with transition, more comfortable with change, just because of how they're wired. It's not a right personality or wrong. They're just. They're wired to be more open to change, and the other one is more comforted by stability and consistency, and so they're more rocked by change. And this impacts how they deal with everything, how they deal with transition, how they deal with grief. And then the one spouse who's ready to move forward faster can feel like, I'm being held back by you, because you're not. You're not moving fast enough. And the other one is feeling like you're trying to drag me through this, and I feel completely unsettled and unsafe, and it can create friction. And so what would be your advice? Just for that couple who really are like most couples, where they're dealing with transition, but they're doing it in a different way, and they're trying to. Without changing each other's personalities. They're trying to find some unity in that and serve each other in that. What does that look like?

I know it's gonna sound really simple, but they first have to get to a point to where they're actually admitting where they are. Like, where are you emotionally? Do you feel that you're that person that's kind of having to drag your feet a little bit because the other person isn't quite catching up to, hey, we need to turn the page and move forward? Or if you're that person that is saying, hey, you're dragging me, you know, I need time to process this. We have to first come to the point to where we actually admit that. And so what we have sometimes is you'll have a person who's really been struggling with this for a long time, and they've held it in for so long, and they won't say anything about it, not verbally, but maybe physically or financially, it's coming out. One way or another, it's coming out. Can they have that breakthrough moment where they wake up and they say, let's pause real quick and assess where our relationship is. And this is something that Lynette and I, we would do in several stages. One, we would have. At the end of the year, we would just kind of assess, where are we? How did we do with our goals that we set for this past year, and where do we want to be next year with our relationship? It's kind of like a pit stop relationally to where you can actually assess where you are. And then secondly, on a smaller scale, we would have just weekly conversations where we actually sat down with one another and we're asking each other, how are you? How are you doing? And if couples don't have those, like, moments where they can kind of pause and really assess where they are emotionally, spiritually, physically, then those conversations are never had to where we can get out into the open. Like, this is where I am in the context of the changes that are going on.

Yeah. I think just having being open and communicating with one another is huge. And I know that may sound overrated or repeat, but it really is a difference maker for me to say, hey, this is where I am. I know this is where we want to go. I know this is where we're trying or aspiring to be as a couple. But here is what I'm having a problem with, and I just need your grace or I need a little bit of patience, you know, on my way there. But I think that if you can maintain as a couple, you know, here is where we are, but there is where we want to be, and in between is where we need to figure out how to get there, but we want to get there together. Yeah, Right.

And so that also requires a level of humility that if all of a sudden my wife comes to me. And there have been many a times where Lynette has come to me and she's trying to share something, and I don't. Yeah, she gonna keep me on the spot, y'.

All.

For me, the challenge was when she would say, I felt like this, or here's kind of the reality I'm living in. I would jump on the defense, and I'd defend my position or defend why I did so on and so forth. And that began to shut her down. Right. And so there's a level of humility that has to exist on each spouse's part to where we say, okay, I need to hear them out before I judge them, before I throw stones at what their perspective is. The goal is not to be against one another. It's to get through this thing together, is to be a team that's unified, moving forward together, right through all the ups and downs of life. And I need to hear them out. If I don't set appointments and scheduled meetings to hear them, then I won't. Or when they do decide to share it, it may come at a random time where my mind is not there. So let's carve out sanctified special time for us to hang out and talk about what's on our heart. And then when they're speaking, we're actively listening, Right? And we're listening to understand, not to fight.

I love that. So good. You know, you guys, if you want to get a copy, and I know you do, all of you listening, it's gonna. It's an amazing book, as you can tell. It's called Marriage in Transition, and you can get it@marriageintransition.com it's available now. Get your hands on this. There's so much more that we could talk about. We're going to go into our question, but all of this is so good, you guys. I just. I love it. All right. Our favorite time in the podcast. It's our Q and A. Live Q and A. And as you guys know, we never see these questions until we are doing them right now during the recording of this podcast. And if you want to submit a question, you can submit that@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and so, Dave, do you want to read today's question?

Sure. Yeah. And thank you for the question. I'm looking forward to seeing what we've got and really looking forward to having Sean and Lynette here, because that means, like, I can, like, throw all the hard stuff to them and just sit back, get ready. So. Yeah, no, this is going to be good. The question says, my husband is a pastor at the church where his parents pastor. They believe that ministry is first with your relationship with God and that marriage comes after ministry. My husband and I have been struggling in our marriage for a while, and his mom has mentioned things about me wanting to take him away from them and out of ministry. I honestly don't believe that I have ever taken him away from ministry, but it is hard on me to not be able to spend as much time with him during the week as I would like to due to his church commitments. I feel like my husband is being pulled in two separate directions, and I don't know what to do. Do you have any advice for me? Well, it's a great question, and I just, you know, hear the pain in this wife's heart because she's wanting a very good and natural desire, which is to be with her husband and her husband's parents, though, you know, I don't know any of these people, obviously, and I don't want to make judgment calls about, you know, anyone's faith or motives. I think they're probably believing they're doing the right thing. But biblically, God's made this one clear for us, and that's that Our relationship with God is first, but then our marriage, our marriage supersedes our work. It supersedes that, includes our ministry, all of those things. So you know, the church is Jesus bride. And if you love someone else's bride more than your own bride, then that person is a mistress. And so if you're treating Jesus bride as your bride, then you're actually cheating on your bride. You got to put your bride first. And we do that as a way to honor our bride. Jimmy Evans talks about this in what he calls the law of priority, where he gives a very solid biblical case for how, yes, God first, but that does not include our work, our ministry, our work obligations, our spouse right under that, and then our children. And work has to be kept in its place. And ministry in this case, it's a form of work, it's sacred work, but it's still definitely not more sacred than your marriage and should never sabotage your marriage. So I will step back now and let all these other brilliant people weigh in on this. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, I thought first off, that was a phenomenal answer and I totally agree with you on that. My other thought was in the beginning, God creates man and woman. He joined them together. And that was the first ministry ever created. That is the first ministry and that is the ministry of family. My wife and I, we were talking about this today. When God revealed himself to the world, he could have used any title. And when his son came on the scene, God the Father got the son. And the relationship between the two was so unique and it was a revelation to mankind, to the world that they had always seen him as Yahweh or you know, this distant God in their sense of, okay, he's a deity, we are humanity. And there's a disconnect. But God wanted to reveal himself to us as family. And we are the family of God. We're called the children of God. And so there's a lesson even in that just who he is, family is important. God first, then your family. And they need to be our priority.

Yeah. And I, you know, for the young lady who submitted, I want you to know that you are entitled to that relationship.

That's right.

That what you feel, you feel right. And you're entitled to have a pure relationship with your spouse.

Right.

And I want to say I think there's another layer to this because she mentioned her mother in law said, you're taking him away from us.

That's right.

So this isn't just a ministry thing, this is an in law. Boundaries need to be put in place kind of thing. And I know, you know, her husband isn't in a really tough position because his family is also part of his work, his ministry work. And they're kind of putting him like, say, like choose, you know, do you choose the ministry and us? You're clearly part of the ministry or your wife and that's, that's a terrible place. You know, if you're listening and you are in laws, please never do that to your married kids. And I'm sure again, like Dave said, if we don't know these people, I'm sure in their mind and heart they feel like they're doing right, but really it's about control and it's about not, not allowing the transition that needs to happen of becoming, leaving and cleaving and becoming husband and wife. They're coming in, you know, in front of that, like they're trying to put themselves ahead of that. And so I just want to say to the wife who wrote, you know, talk to your husband. He needs to be the one to set boundaries here. There's a great book called Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud that's been around for years. It's even been updated to the modern world today. Definitely get that in your hands and read it because it is hard to establish boundaries with family, but it is essential and they're not gonna like it at first. Your mother in law is gonna think you're terrible, but she will come around because God's gonna work on her. God's gonna do the bidding here and just don't lose faith that he is going to be at work for you. But you, again, I want to reiterate what Lynette said. You're totally in the right here. What you were feeling is right and your marriage needs to be a priority. And so I just, I want you to know we'll be praying for you as you guys establish these boundaries together.

Man, these are great answers. And so thank you for that question. You know, our prayers with you and for all those who might feel like they're kind of stuck in a similar situation, that God would guide your steps toward being able to put your marriage first, the way he intended, and do it in a way that's going to bring healing to everybody involved. So thanks for weighing in. Once again, thanks to our dear friends Sean and Lynette Reed, two of the most awesome people on earth. We love you guys and we're so excited. We're just so excited that you're here and we're so excited that the XO conferences are going to be happening with you guys speaking. And if you want to come and see the reads in person or join us for a virtual event, go to xomarriage.com you can get the full conference tour. And off that same website you can also get a lot of other great resources. And once again, I want to make sure that you pick up a copy of the book Marriage in Creating Connection Through Uncontrollable Change. You can get that@marriageintransition.com or anywhere Books are sold. And if they don't have it where books are sold in your town, tell them to get it and carry it because your your town bookstore needs this book too. It's going to change lives and it could certainly help change your marriage. Thanks so much for listening. Do us a favor, leave a review and subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. That helps other people discover it. We appreciate you so much and we'll see you next time.

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