Mental Health in Marriage | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave and Ashley Willis

Today's episode of the Naked Marriage Podcast is brought to you by our partners at the King's University. With a variety of online and on ground degree programs, TKU is helping men and women across the world be transformed for effective spirit empowered life and ministry. So whether you feel called to become a counselor, pastor, worship or ministry leader, or just to grow in spirit formed leadership, the Kings is ready to help you pursue the call. Learn more at tku. Edu Xo.

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And we have a very special treat for you. Today we have Dr. Cassie Reed in the house. She is amazing. She is a therapist and she has some awesome things to share with us about mental health today.

Yeah, as you know, we're in a series based on our new book, Naked and Healthy, which you can find@nakedandhealthy.com and in it we're talking about health in your marriage, but also health individually and health for your spouse mentally, physically and spiritually. And so today is going to be a mental health focus. And I'm so GLAD We've got Dr. Reed here with us, the first guest we've ever had back twice on the Naked Marriage podcast. Obviously, we're big fans. Dr. Reed is the head of the marriage and family therapy program at the King's University and also the founder of Church Rehab. You're going to love hearing from her. So let's dive into today's episode. Cassie, welcome back. It is so great having you back. Like we said in the intro, you are, I believe, the very first guest we've had back twice. So obviously just we are big fans of Dr. Cassie Reid.

Oh, thank you so much for having me twice. So cool.

We have so many good things to share and we are so excited to talk specifically about this topic today. And so you want to jump right in, sweetie?

Yeah. Well, we just thought this was a perfect fit because, you know, we're in the series Naked and Healthy. We're talking about health physically, spiritually, we're talking about health mentally. In the mental health piece, we wanted to bring in kind of an expert because we've gone through collectively with the pandemic and with just everything in our world. We've gone through a lot that's kind of really challenged mental health. And we get messages from couples all the time, just say, you know, we're feeling stressed, we're feeling anxious, we're just feeling out of sorts. And so we want to provide a resource today, just a conversation to help point people to some tools to help them with the mental health aspect of being naked and healthy. So all that talking, I want to get out of the way and let you talk because you're the pro. You're the pro. You're helping people. We appreciate that.

No pressure, no pressure.

The work that you're doing.

Yeah.

Fix all of us, Cassie.

Oh, man.

I hope you brought your magic wand.

And you're going to fix this.

Now, we know it's a lot more than that, but what would you like to say? Just to kind of kick the conversation off to that person who's listening right now and they're just feeling like super stressed and they don't know what to do with all that stress. They don't know how to cope with it in a healthy way. How would you encourage that person?

You know, I think the first thing that I would do is, in a sense, normalize it. I think one of the biggest lies that we believe is that we're the only one. And so I think in 2020, of course, a lot of us have experienced, I would be almost certain to say every person has experienced, increase stress. So one, to normalize it, but two, to say it's not the end all, be all. Like, how there are ways that you can come out of this season like, this is not permanent. You're not stuck here. Yes, our circumstances around us may dictate how you're feeling, but it doesn't have to. So providing them with some solutions and just some hope, I feel like hopelessness and hope itself has been scarce. And so I think providing that for people and letting them feel like there's a glimmer of hope, what do you have to look forward to? What are you dreaming about? What is the Lord saying to you? Those things are still happening regardless of what we see around us, regardless who we see in office, regardless of what we see happening in our health, of our country. So I think the pandemic, all of it, it's just, there's hope to be found.

I love that. And we all need hope. You know, every day, even before the pandemic, we always need hope. But I do think right now so many of us feel like there is this ominous dark cloud kind of hanging over us. And I think a lot of it is in the form of, like, what are the long term effects gonna be for my circumstances? How is this world gonna be different? Cause, you know, we used to, in the beginning of this say we can't wait to Return to normal. And then it became the new normal. And then people were like, if I hear the term, the term's the new normal anymore. I'm going to lose my mind. And now you. You know, we were actually talking to a cab driver the other day. We're like, we're not even gonna say new normal. We're just gonna say, I'm excited for things to get better, but we all don't know what better looks like. And so what do you say to that person where they're kind of riddled with fear and they wake up in the morning and they just feel that heaviness inside their mind and in their body? Because we know, like we've said on this podcast many times, you know, mental health, it affects the entire body. And what would you say to that person?

Well, I think I would say to that person, what would better look like? And I think even for kids, so I know there might be people listening where their kids have struggled, you know, with homeschool and things like that. So what would better look like? Like, let's paint your ideal picture of not new normal, but what did you call it? You know, like, whatever you want to. You could give it any name.

Right?

But what would you want your ideal situation to look like? Okay, let's paint it in our mind. What would you be doing? Who would be around? Where would you be? What would. What would you be enjoying? What would bring fun into your life? Fun is a lost thing in our culture. It's lost. Like, I think people have lost the idea of how to have fun. I do think so. Having them paint that picture, and then you can almost see it. Okay, tell me about a time when you felt that way. Okay, great. Now what can we do? Like, little steps. So there's a modality in therapy called solution focused, and it's one of the ways I was trained. But what it does is it helps you look at the solution and find steps to it. And I think what we do sometimes is we look at the whole thing, like, okay, where are we going? And what does it take? Oh, my gosh, that's daunting. For adults, for kids, for anyone. But if we can piece it out, small, little bits. Okay, what would it take to make you feel a little bit of joy tomorrow? Okay, this is your dream. This is what you want it to look like. You want to cook this meal, or you want to go to the park or you want to have a new job. Okay, so tomorrow, what would it look like for you to apply for one? What would it look like for us to take a walk, you know, like just putting little things in that get you closer to that destination.

Gosh, I love that.

I do too. That's so practical. And I think, you know, bringing it down to the marriage example, we try to like, try to point everything to kind of marriage specific focus when we can. I think a lot of couples will look at the situation that they're in if they're in a struggle and they'll like you were talking about, they'll look at the whole big thing and it seems so daunting and they have this picture in their head of what they thought their marriage was going to be. And it doesn't look like that right now. And they feel overwhelmed. But if they will just take that solutions focused approach you just talked about to say, well, what would it look like if today we connected and had a meaningful conversation or if we planned a date night for this week? Or you bring it down into bite sized pieces that couples can actually do that's gonna move them in the right direction. And everything we do here at XO is really that kind of solution focus. We're just trying to help couples take that next step in the right direction because we always have that next step to take. But you know, kind of as this whole mental health conversation relates to marriage, what, what are some tips you would give to couples who are trying to help each other through this? And maybe they're in different places. You know, maybe one, one of the spouses is feeling, you know, discouraged and you know, maybe they, you know, actually do have depression or anxiety, but maybe they're just one that's more prone to worry and then the other one's like, how do I encourage that spouse without. I'm not trying to negate their feelings, but I also want to help bring them out of that funk if I can. What are some ways couples can take those steps in their home to create a safe environment for both of them?

One of the best healing balms for marriages is communication. Like, I mean I just over and over, over 10 years of practicing and I find that if couple can sit down and have an honest, genuine conversation where both sides feel heard, it's such a healing element to a marriage that's so good. And so in that case it's letting both parties be heard. Cause I think the person who might be depressed or anxious just needs someone to listen, needs someone to hear how they're feeling, needs someone to understand where they are and what are the thoughts that are racing through their mind. So Letting them be heard. And I think the other person needs to be heard, too. So just because you might not be the most anxious, you might have some logical things or some points that you want to present that keep getting shot down, that still doesn't feel good. And so, like, making space. And I think practically couples, I'm just going to be honest, they don't do a good job of creating an environment for a healthy conversation. Meaning, okay, now I will tell on myself. I will have something on my mind, getting ready, putting on my makeup or whatever in the morning, and I just lay it on my husband. Not good. Don't be like me. Because it's not a healthy environment for a hard conversation. But if we're sitting in the evening on the couch together, we've got some jazz playing, we're reading a book, and we can have a conversation, we're both in a mindset. And even if I've said, hey, babe, can we talk later? It is like, exponentially more profound to our relationship than me trying to run it by him real quick while I'm putting on my mascara. And so I think if we can train couples to slow down. That's the one thing that has been in my spirit and in my mind and even practically in my practice, is that people in 2020 have slowed down, but we need to continue to do that, because the pace of information, of worry, of stress, and of all the things that go past us is so fast. If we don't slow down to piece it out, to know it's true, it just can. It can take root in us. And so the same with couples. They need to take the space, make an environment that's comfortable for you, make sure both parties are engaged in the conversation and can be there. They don't have a work deadline looming or something going on, that the kids are asleep if you have kids, and that you're not hot, hungry, or tired.

Things that can be triggers.

So it's just set yourself up for success. And I think that those people can feel heard. Everyone can feel heard.

You know, it's so true. We always say on the podcast that we know those times of day or the situations that bring out the best in our spouse. And we know those things that don't bring out the best that kind of tend to bring out the worst. And so it's like, play to their strengths. Play to the parts of the day where they have the best energy. Like, for us, we've shared this, but I'll share it briefly again, we have different kind of scopes of energy throughout the day. And they're opposite. Our flow is very opposite. So like Dave, I'm not a morning person. I'm whatever. The opposite is, like completely not a morning person. And Dave is like a midday person. But midday is like my lowest point. So I start out with like middle energy and then I just plummet midday. And then I'll go all the way up and I'm just like feeling alive at night.

We meet each other around 5pm when I'm on the way down and she's on the way up. And so for about 10 minutes, a 10 minute window, we have the equal amount of energy and we have amazing conversations during those 10 minutes. And then we just kind of continue on our trajectory. But just learning to, I think, just respect each other's differences and meet the practical needs. You know, like you said, are you hot, hungry, or tired? Do you need a snack? I mean, sometimes it's.

A snack is revolutionary snippets.

Sometimes that's what your marriage needs, is just a snack. By the way, this podcast is brought to you by Snickers. And if you're hungry, not really, but if you work for Snickers and would like to be a sponsor, give us a call. That's right. But just kind of bringing this down. Real practical. You talked about communication for those couples. And we hear from a lot of couples say, I want to communicate better, but I just feel like our conversations don't go anywhere. You know, all of us can get in cycles and in habits. Whether they're healthy or unhealthy. We all tend to just kind of go back to what we've been doing. But for that couple that says, I really do want our communication to be better, what are some communication tips? Or maybe even more practically, what questions could one spouse ask the other to really prompt healthy communication to that's gonna take their communication in places where it hasn't been before.

Yeah, okay, so I'll answer that. But I wanna give one thing at the same time. I think the first question is what you ask yourself before you ask someone else, which is this. If I were to have a successful conversation with my spouse, what would I accomplish? Like, what would be the end result? So you have to fast forward yourself because sometimes you just need a moment to be like, that's unreasonable. Like, this is my expectation. I want you to be like, completely come to my side and tell me I'm wonderful and that you've totally dropped every argument that you've ever had about me. No, like, that's not logical, right. So I think the first question we have to ask is to ourselves, like, do what do I. If I were to have a successful conversation with my spouse, what would I accomplish at the end? So that way you can kind of visualize that space. Then I think asking your spouse, what do you wanna see? Like, if we could sit down and have a healthy conversation, what would you get to talk through? So I think allowing ourselves to kind of go ahead of ourselves and see it resolved is again, another way to kind of, like, solution focused. You're looking ahead, you're seeing yourself do it. I think another thing would be, like, where is an area that I haven't heard you lately?

Yeah, that's good.

Because I think those things are harbored in our heart. Like, those are the things we bury.

We're like, it's okay.

I'm fine. No problem, no problem, no problem. You know? And then the next thing you know, yeah, you're like, why are you yelling at me about the garbage disposal? When it has nothing to do with the garbage disposal. It has everything to do with the fact that they didn't feel heard last Tuesday. And so I think, where have I not heard you? Here's an area that I'd love to be heard. You know, it's like sharing that. And then I think, what would we like to solve? We can't solve everything, but in this conversation, if we could solve one thing, what would we like to choose to. To solve today? And so I think, again, it's hope. It's putting hope in the conversation and allowing them to feel like the couple, to feel like they can find a resolve.

You know, I love that. And I feel like we need to start with hope. Always start with hope. And know that we always have hope, that God is with us. He has not abandoned us, that he can get us through anything. But like you said, it may not change everything in one day, and it may not even change any circumstance in one day, but it certainly can change our heart. You know, he always. I feel like God always changes our hearts and our perspectives before he changes circumstances, and that's huge. And we always talk about. And the Bible talks about keeping a soft heart. And when your heart is hard or your spouse's heart is hard, that is when it's extremely difficult. And I wanna talk about this one scenario because some of you listening, you know, you're thinking like, yeah, you know, this is all fine and good, but our situation is much more dire. And I wanna give a scenario with a couple that we're Very close to that we've worked with throughout the years. But it's just. The husband feels like he's hitting a brick wall. So the husband feels like they have a terrible marriage. He goes to his wife, and his wife every time says, don't talk about anything. I can't take it. We're fine. Like, she's like, I can't cope. And it's very clear that she has a mental health issue. She deals with anxiety and she deals with depression, but she won't admit it. And, you know, we hear from a lot of couples in the same scenario where, you know, this one spouse is like, this is. My marriage is just terrible, and I'm just sticking it out, but I'm. Everything I say is falling on deaf ears. You know, what would you say, you know, as one who is a professional in this field, what would you say to that spouse that is majorly concerned and is trying to have these conversation starters, but is just being given a brick wall every time?

The first thing I would say is, I'm so sorry. Just because that's hard. Like when you. I mean, I just have to. That's just. I'm sorry. It stinks. And it's hard when you have the most intimate person to you that isn't hearing you, you know, and all you want to do is make it better, because that's what it sounds like. It's like you want to fix it. You want it to be better, you want it to be healthier, you want it to be more fulfilling for both of you. I think. I think healthy boundaries are really, really crucial. I. I'm really interested, and I've been interested since I was like 17 years old in codependency. And I think we are codependent people all the time in so many ways. But what we do is we compensate for mental illness just like we would for addiction. And so we make a way where an addict. Like, if you think about someone as an alcoholic that people will make, oh, they're fine. They just had 16 drinks. It's cool. You know, like, people will do that. They'll do the same thing. Oh, well, we just don't talk about anything hard. It's cool. You know, we do the same thing. But I think what we have to do is we have to realize, I can't be co dependent on you, that my emotions are in this bucket. Your emotions are in this bucket. And we have to be able to coexist with our emotions. Feeling powerful, people feeling powerful. Cause it sounds like in that scenario, the Person that's not, that's wanting to have the conversation. It's that powerless feeling. Cause that other person's holding the power by saying, no, no, no, we don't wanna talk about it. And so no one loves to feel powerless. No one. Children, adults, anyone, they don't wanna feel powerless. So I think that would be what I would say is that you can't be codependent and you need some healthy boundaries. Meaning, like what does it look like? Where are ways that you're enabling them to have that? I understand this makes you. But if you don't do something about your anxiety that you're not willing to acknowledge, our marriage will not make it. Which is not what you ever wanna say. But it's like they need to understand I am here, I'm sticking it out, I'm with you, I love you, I'm working, I'm getting all the resources, but this is where I am. Like, I need you to do something. This is serious, you know, and sometimes people just need that conversation and it's interesting just because they don't realize that that person is tired. That. Right.

If you're really curious to learn more about TKU because of all the awesome things that Cassie Reed said today, then I want to tell you more about it. If you believe God has called you into ministry, now is a great time to begin or continue your studies at the King's University. With a variety of online and on ground degree programs, TKU is helping men and women across the world be transformed for effective spirit empowered life and ministry. So whether you feel called to become a counselor, pastor, worship or ministry leader, or just to grow in spirit formed leadership, the Kings is ready to help you pursue the call. Learn more at tku. Eduardo? Yeah, I love the enabling aspect of mental health. Like we don't want to enable, you know, our spouse because we love them and we want what's best for them. We don't want to enable them to just stay at that point. Because I do think as one who's been through anxiety and depression myself, many years ago there was a point where mine went on for four years. And I remember feeling like this, this is just me now. And I think in that scenario I shared with you and many who are listening, who are identifying with this situation, I do think the anxious and depressed person, you know, that's where you can get. If you don't have an awesome spouse that is willing to put down those boundaries and is willing to say like, this isn't like you're not defined by this, we're going to get you the help. I don't care what it takes. I'm beside you, I'm not leaving you. And we're gonna get you the help that you need. And that's how Dave was that for me. But I do think though that for the spouse that is trying to be supportive, but has constantly been kind of turned away, you can get tired and be like, I'm not trying anymore. And you know, we wanna tell you, those of you listening in this situation, don't give up. And know that God is with you. And there are people just like Cassie who can help your spouse and both of you have a breakthrough. And you know, it is easy to get apathetic, it's easy to get disillusioned. But the reason we're talking to you all today and spending time having this conversation is because we want you to know, just like what Dr. Cassie said, there is hope.

Yeah, there definitely is hope.

No, for sure. And again, just even in giving that statement to your spouse, I love to help couples fight. And I think sometimes having an objective, not fight with each other, let me fight for the relationship. Cause I think that just putting an objective person in to your relationship, it sounds so weird because people are like, oh, no, I don't want someone. But man, to have somebody look at it from a bird's eye view, who doesn't go home with you is so powerful. I have a therapist. I'm really transparent about that with my students and with my clients. Because you want that. You want me to have a counselor. I'm a counselor, but you want me to have a counselor. My marriage needs a counselor. And so I think it's so helpful. And there are a lot of great therapists that will fight with you, not against you, but with you. And you're right, you're right. So it's good.

Yeah.

This is so good. And if you guys are. Whenever I'm around Dr. Cassie Reid, I feel like the Karate kid learning from Mr. Miyagi and just like just eating it up. Like this is. This is not that you look anything like Mr. Miyagi. You're a lovely person. You don't have a goatee, nothing like that. If you're not listening, she's a lovely person, very feminine. It's not like a complete.

She has the Jedi, but.

The Jedi, yeah, all of that. But maybe you're listening and you want to learn directly from Dr. Reed. Or maybe you're listening and you just want to take some self improvement steps. And so I want To. Before we dive into today's question, which we're going to get to in just a minute, and Dr. Reed's going to stick around and help us answer the question, I want to give you a chance to talk about the King's University, because tku, it's right here, their main campus is right here in South Lake, Texas, where our XO headquarters is as well. But they're also, through virtual learning, you know, helping students all over the world. And TKU is doing an amazing job. We're good friends with the president there, Dr. John Chastain, who's also a pastor and a great friend of exo. And seeing the life change that's happening through the King's University is something that we just want to come alongside you guys as partners and celebrate that and use this platform as a way to help other potential students discover what you're doing. So before we dive into today's question, just take a minute and talk about the work you're doing at TKU and how those who are listening, who might want to be part of that, can. Can be part of it.

Sure. No TQ is amazing. So I've been there for a little over seven years. And so I am over the counseling program, the master's in marriage and Family therapy. So we have a master's degree there and a bachelor's of Biblical counseling. There's all kinds of programs that you can study there if you have a heart for ministry. But when you think about marriages, like, that's really what I love to do, is train therapists to fight with couples on how to fight for their marriage, to fight for the health, to fight for the Holy Spirit, to be part of who they are. And so it's amazing. The program that we have, the master's program specifically, is dual licensed in the state of Texas. And even with COVID you know, it's interesting with this last year, people, there's so many things that are bad. We've really had a cool pivot at TKU to provide extra opportunities for students all over. So there might be people even listening that aren't here in Texas, but we have some great distance learning options that people can be part of. And it's just an amazing place to mix ministry with practical application. So my students right now are working at agencies that have graduated from the program. Agencies in Texas. I have a student that started a freedom ministry in Columbia. Like, just different things, sex trafficking, all different venues they are able to walk in. And so it's just really neat to see the open doors Some of our students, pastors, youth pastors, children's pastors, missions work, just even practical business. We're helping churches with business. There's just so many students that are out doing amazing things coming from the King's University, but I just love being there. The students are so cool. My students range from, in a grad program from 22 to 78. So we admitted our oldest student last year. And so it's just so cool because the diversity of people. So if you think you're too old, you're not. Unless you're 79, you're still not too old.

Right.

And you're not too young. Like the call. It's cool to see the people who are called to come and learn more and be equipped to do exactly what they've been destined to do.

That's so awesome, man.

So, yeah, if you're listening and you just kind of feel that kind of burning in your own heart, like, you know, I feel like God's calling me to some kind of ministry and I want to take that next step, then check out the King's University as a wonderful place to take that next step and get the training and equipping you need. What's the website that people should go.

To if they're www.tku.edu? so the Kings University Tku. Edu.

I love it. I love it. And we love Tku. Dr. John Chastain, if you're listening.

Yes. We love you.

We love you. On screen, we look the same height, but he's approximately four feet taller than me in real life. So we look like Gandalf and Frodo standing next to each other. Oh, my goodness. Or Shrek and Donkey maybe is a lots of pop culture references in today's episode. I see this.

Yeah.

All right, so we're gonna pivot to today' question, and every. Every episode, we end with a question that you guys write us. And we want to thank you for writing in these questions. You guys write Ashley and me on social media all the time. We're avanashleywillis on Instagram, on Facebook. You can find us. And we love getting your questions. It actually helps shape entire episodes that we do and book content and all these things. The questions that get answered here on the podcast are the ones submitted to nakedmarriagepodcast.com so feel free to go there and send us a question. I'm going to read today's question, and then I'm going to step back and let these two brilliant ladies here dive in, because both Their brains work faster than mine. And while they're talking, I might think of something to say, but it won't be as smart as what they say. So here we go. Thirteen years ago, I had a miscarriage while trying to have our first baby. I was devastated. And I still find myself coming undone all these years later when the anniversary of losing him is upon me. I've suffered in silence for most of our marriage, but this year I told my husband why I get depressed at the same time every year. I thought telling my husband would bring us closer together, but it didn't really seem to do anything. We've had seven children since, and it makes me feel so ungrateful for what the Lord has given us. But I can't seem to move past this. How can I help my husband see what our baby meant to me so we can grieve our loss together. And thank you for that very honest, very vulnerable that I know speaks to the heart of so many. There's so many people that have written us specifically around this area of miscarriage. We did a whole episode with our friends at George and Barclay Lyles on this topic. That's powerful as they kind of shared some of their own experience with that. And so many folks in that situation seem to feel what she seems to be feeling, which is an isolation that they're hurting in isolation, and they don't know a healthy way to kind of grieve together within their marriage. So, ladies, what would you say to this woman and to others like her who are feeling this kind of pain?

You know, my first thought is this is a trauma she hasn't dealt with. And so that's why I'm so glad you're here, because I know you can speak directly to this. I mean, it's one of those things where if you, you know, seven children later, this is still a stumbling block. And I think that her husband, I'm sure he cares just as much as she does. But, you know, it can we show in different ways, especially men and women, the differences in how we cope with things. But, you know, it's clearly a stumbling block that she has not healed from. So what would you say?

Well, I think one of the things that we fail to do as people overall and specifically to her, I'm just sorry. You know, I feel like we just don't. We don't grieve negative realities, and we really don't grieve at all. Like. And a negative reality doesn't always have to be a miscarriage. I know this is a really serious one. And it's just awful, terrible, traumatic. You're right. It's a trauma. But we don't stop and grieve. Like, we don't stop in the moment and say, I need to be in my emotions, in my body, and feel sad right now, feel angry right now, feel frustrated. And I think what we want to do, because everyone else in our world wants us to hurry up and be okay. Are you okay? Oh, you're good now? Okay, we can all be good now. Cause it's really about them. It's not about you. So I need you to hurry up and be done with this so that I can get you back to quote, unquote, normal and we can move on. And so I think it sounds like she got stuck there. You know, that that is a big deal. You had a death, absolutely. Of a person that you were hoping you would raise. That's a big deal. And so to stop. And I think letting her husband know, okay, so with seven kids, he's probably like, wow, like, a little overwhelmed and maybe needs to get in touch with his emotions. Cause obviously, you know, and probably talked about this many times, but men and women are different emotionally. How they express emotion, it doesn't. Not one's right, not one's wrong. It just is how we're created. And so I think the way she might feel every year when it comes around is different. He might have his come out a different way. But letting him know, hey, I want to get over this, because that's what I think I'm hearing her say is not over it. Because grief is a journey. It's not a destination. You don't arrive somewhere, you might be 10 years down the road and cry and have a memory. It's okay. That's what it's supposed to be. That's part of life. But I think letting him know, hey, I don't like how much this is affecting me every year, and I wanna do something about it. And letting him know that that's why you're bringing it up, is that you want to have every year be a little bit better for you. Maybe you're still grieved, but you're not gonna feel like you go into a slump or a funk that feels so debilitating to you.

Yeah.

And I hear her saying too, that she wants to share. She feels like she's grieved, alone, at a loss that they both have shared. And so even though she's not expressed how she's felt, maybe completely to him, she may be, and maybe I'm reading into this harbors even a little bit of resentment toward him for outwardly not seeming to care in the same way that she cares or grieving the same way that she cares. And we know grief looks different on everyone. It's like a fingerprint. And so we can't always expect someone else to process the same loss in the same way. But how would you advise this couple to find just some unity so that sharing and carrying this burden together, processing this grief together, would be something that would draw them closer together instead of being a wedge issue that drives them potentially further apart?

I think I go back to the communication piece again because I wonder if she said to him, hey, it's hard for me that you don't grieve it in a way that I can see visually. Maybe she seems to say something that blatant of, like, hey, I'm trying to understand. I know you're compassionate and kind. Obviously, I've had seven children with you, so I love you, but I just don't feel that when it comes to this topic. Can you tell me, is there something. Is it hard for you? Like, I would love to see some vulnerability in this area when it comes so I can know where you are so I can share where I am. So I think that's one thing. I think he would probably. I don't know. I don't know this guy. I mean, I don't know these people individually, but I would say he's probably would be so crushed to hear that she felt alone. Most guys don't. Or girls, women or men, either one. They don't realize how they're making their spouse feel because the spouse doesn't tell them.

Right.

So I think it's a heartless thing. It's probably. I'm not aware. Oh, my gosh, I've been making you feel like you've had to grieve alone. I would never want to do that to you.

And I think, you know, from that description, again, we don't know all the details, so it's hard to know exactly what's going on and how it was perceived on both ends. But I think that when she told him, she was expecting there to be some kind of epiphany and crossroads. And maybe he didn't respond in the way that she was hoping. And I love how earlier throughout this podcast, you know, you've talked about working through, like, what are my expectations? And, you know, what do I hope to come from this conversation? And I think that it didn't meet her expectations. But even going back to him and saying, listen, I am sorry I put certain expectations on you and how you would respond to me sharing why I get so sad around this time of year. But what I'm really hoping to see from you is just that we acknowledge the existence of our son that we lost and that you miss him too. You know, I think sometimes just even it doesn't have to be a lot of words and beautiful language in the way that we say things, but just acknowledging, yes, we lost a son and I miss him too. And just knowing again, like we've talked about this whole podcast being in each other's corner and, you know, the husband, if he's listening, which I hope he is, or any husband who's walking through this, you know, just acknowledging, yes, we had a loss, we're all processing it differently, but this is a human being that we lost in our family and we are grieving his loss. You know, we acknowledge his existence and maybe even, you know, I know couples who've lost children around that time of year, that month or whenever it happened, and they may have a time where they just, they do cry together or they do pray together or something to say, you know, this is sad for us because we lost this child. We're not gonna let it dictate our life and keep us from our other children or from having the marriage that God wants us to have. But we just wanna acknowledge, you know, that this is hard, just like what Cassie was saying earlier, acknowledge those feelings. And I think that that can go a long way. And, you know, but I think just like with grief, Dave always says grief is a fingerprint. And I love that because it's so different on each person. And, you know, we have to acknowledge that just because our spouse doesn't cry as much or doesn't, you know, isn't stumbling as much, it doesn't mean it didn't matter to them. It just means that they're processing it a little bit differently and we need to be really careful. The expectations we put on them.

So good. Gosh, so good. And thank you for that question. And yeah, for anyone in that situation, our prayers are with you. If it would help you to talk to somebody in this situation or any situation, reach out to a counselor. Like we talked about through this whole episode, having a good counselor, a good therapist can be so, so incredibly helpful in your healing process. We also have coaches here at XO who do a wonderful job of listening, of praying, of giving practical solutions minded steps to help you move forward in the right direction. You can contact our coaches@xomarriage.com coaches and.

Some of them are King's graduates.

How about that?

We've got some full circle awesome.

Tku alum. Tku alum on our coaching style.

I love it.

Dr. Reed, thank you for sharing your wit and wisdom with us. It's really, it's been such an impact to us and I'm sure to all who have listened. So before we wrap up, how can folks find you if they need more Dr. Cassie Reed in their life? Like, where would you like, the floor is yours. You have to find me.

Well, you can most definitely find me at the King's University. So at TKU Edu, if you search under the faculty, I'm there. And so you can find an email address for me there. If you want any more information about the King's University, I also do some work. I have a company called Church Rehab. So I work with people who've been spiritually abused, but I also work with folks with other issues too, marriages and kids. I've been in practice for over 10 years, but I'm kind of morphing and changing it into the Church Rehab company. So it's kind of like rehab. You go to rehab for alcohol, sometimes you need to go to rehab for church wounds. So it's the same thing. So yeah, so intensives and I do some retreats coming up in 2021 and so yeah, you can find me there.

It's ChurchRehab co. ChurchRehab co. So check that out. Such important work you're doing. Thank you. And we thank you again for being here and we thank all of you for watching and listening and being part of this online community. And do us a favor and share this. This was an important conversation that we just had with Dr. Reed and so folks will benefit from hearing it. And so text your friends or post this online, let them know. You can also leave a review of this podcast and subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening. And by doing that, it helps others discover it as well. So thanks again. We'll see you next. Today's episode of the Naked Marriage podcast is brought to you by our partners at the Kings University. With a variety of online and on ground degree programs, TKU is helping men and women across the world be transformed for effective spirit empowered life and ministry. So whether you can called to become a counselor, pastor, worship or ministry leader, or just to grow in spirit formed leadership, the Kings is ready to help you pursue the call. Learn more at tku Edu XO.