Playing The Long Game with Eric Wooten | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hey, friends. Welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast. Dave here. Unfortunately, Ashley's not here today. This is just what parenting looks like. Excuse me. She got a call a few minutes ago to run and pick up one of our kids from school who has pink eyes. So, you know, that's just real life right there. But you're in for a treat today because we've got a very special guest we're interviewing, and I'm excited to interview him. His name is Eric Luton. He has been a pastor, he is a counselor. He is the founder of Altered Marriage. He is an author, has a heart for helping build stronger marriages. And so much to share with us today, and it's going to be a great episode. Eric, welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast.

Thanks for having me, Dave. We'll do this in lieu of Ashley, right? We'll into a man hour here.

Man hour, and we'll dedicate it to her. This episode is dedicated wholeheartedly to Ashley, who could not be here. But I'm so glad that you're here, man, and the work that you're doing, you're helping couples. And I want to get into all that. But first, I want to dive in. We. Anytime we have somebody on the show, we always start by asking them to share their own love story, how they met their spouse. So roll. Roll back the clock for us and tell us. Tell us that the Hallmark movie version of how. How you and your wife met each other.

Yeah, this is. Well, first it's going to totally date me because when I tell you the story is. And my wife's not here to refute it, this is what's even better right now, Dave, our wives cannot refute.

Right. No fact checking. Yeah.

So it was in college. I was playing soccer in college, early 90s. So of course, I had the traditional South American European soccer mullet.

Right, of course. Yeah.

And so the way I. The way I reflect back is I was running down the field, and if you can imagine the mullet, a little bit wet from sweat and water, is just flowing in the wind. And she's watching and I'ms.

Yeah.

What are you going to do about that? So that. That was the start. And actually she called me to ask me out the first time because I didn't know her, but. But her best friend was our assistant coach's girlfriend. And so they had this thing that they were going to. Not Scary Farm. We were in California. So Knott's Berry Farm during October has Not Scary Farm. So that was our first date. This is how I reflect back on it, she saw my mullet flowing and she was like, I, I need some of that in my life.

I got to get my hands on that mullet. That.

Yeah. So she called and said, hey, we're going here. Would you come with me? That was our first date and that was the end of the story. So, yeah, we, we hit it off and connected and, you know, we're talking every day and, and about. We got married in college, so that was my freshman year, her junior year. So she was robbing the cradle too.

Yeah. You got a cougar.

Yeah. Yeah. So we got married after my sophomore year, so about, about a year, almost two years later. Yeah.

That's awesome. That's like you're still going strong all these decades later. Remind me how many.

I don't know if it's always strong, but we're still going. That's, that's the key. They haven't all been strong years.

Yeah, well, you know, you learn from the, you learn from the not strong years though. It. And do you ever put on, do you have like a mullet wig that you put on just to get her going ever? Like, kind of like, hey, baby, look. Look what I pulled out of the closet.

And I do, but it's more of a Joe Dirt mullet. And so I think it has the opposite effect.

Right. It's not like man lingerie at that.

Yeah, nothing's turned off at this point.

Oh, man, that's great. Well, fast forward a little bit and tell us about your heart for marriages. I mean, Ashley and I love whenever we can connect with just some kind of like minded partners in this work because really it's a pretty small pond of folks who are really focused on encouraging and building Christ focused, healthy marriages. And so we love, love it when we come across partners like you guys who are in the trenches and doing it. But tell, tell us a little bit about how you, how you got into that. Like, is it something that from the start you knew you wanted to do, or was it something that kind of evolved over time? Or was it a moment that you felt like God was leading you there?

Yeah, I think it was a little of all of that. I mean, I never really wasn't on the radar. You know, we got married early. I was 20, she was 22, which, you know, is ridiculous. I still ask my parents, you know, what were you thinking? And you know, my mom says I, I was pretty adamant about it, and so she figured we could support you or we could, you know, damage relationship with you by fighting you. So that that's her story. I don't remember. But. But yeah, so. So we, you know, we started early and. And I think Our first probably 10 years were tough up and down. I think we got married and kind of felt like, man, nobody. Everybody's smiling and telling, patting us on the back. That's going to be phenomenal. I don't. I'm like, I don't think anybody really told me what this looks like. Like, you know, we certainly. We did premarital. We did a couple, you know, mandatory sessions at the church we were getting married at. But, you know, looking back now, I'm like, nobody really told us what we were getting into. Nobody asked any questions about, you know, childhood woundedness or past relationships or our differences. And so I think because we struggled, it built a little bit of passion. And then just shy of 10 years into our marriage, my wife had an affair. And obviously that's one of those catalyst moments that kind of, you know, you. You really decide in that moment, you know, are you about covenant? Do you. Do you believe God can do the things he says he can do? And so for us, having community and people helping us through that, I think that birthed the real passion. Just having those painful experiences even before that.

Sure.

Just struggling and then seeing so many couples around us that I felt like were quitting, that didn't need to be quitting. And so I think those things kind of burst. And so shortly after that, we transitioned into ministry, and it's kind of been a journey since then.

Wow, that's great. So you used that defining moment that would have broken a lot of folks. And you said, this is going to be the moment that we rebuild and we move forward and we add a real. We're not just going to survive, but we're going to use this experience to help others. And I'm sure you've been able to, through the years, in a very unique way, offer counsel and insight to people who are. Who are walking through that exact same trauma and being able to lean into it from experience. Like, I know what that feels like. I know what that betrayal feels like. I know what that painful, awkward, rebuilding trust feels like. And so do you find yourself connecting with folks specifically that have been through that? Is that something you go. That you kind of look for, or is that something that's happened organically?

Yeah, I think more organically. You know, I've. I've not set out to be, hey, I'm the affair recovery guy. You know, come see us. But, you know, I'm sure you've experienced it too. Any. Anytime we go through something in life, if. If we're open to it, it seems like out of the woodwork, everybody who's dealing with it pops in. You know, we went. We dealt with it in fertility. We have three children through adoption now. And so same experiences. You know, you go through something and then all of a sudden everybody around you is doing the same thing. But, yeah, it's been, for me, a moment because there's the clinical side.

Right.

I'm a counselor, so I know the things to say and to ask and. But there's just something powerful about looking somebody in the eye and not giving them a clinical response, but just saying, I've been you. You know, I know what that pain feels like. I know what the worry feels like. I know what the narrative running through your head day to day feels like. And so I think. I think the combination of, you know, having a skill set to help people and then also being able to say, I've been there is a powerful combo for sure.

Yeah, yeah. God doesn't waste any part of our testimony. I know Ashley and I, you know, we've been through, you know, she had a real long bout with anxiety and depression. And, you know, folks have really leaned into that part of her testimony and shared their own. I had a long struggle with pornography going back to my teenage years into early in our marriage, and, you know, have interact with somebody almost daily around that topic. And, you know, I just. It's just a reminder that no matter what we go through that God can use it. He can. He can bring good out of even a really bad situation. And I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that he doesn't waste our pain.

So, absolutely, it's a little easier to push through when you. And once you've experienced once, right now you look at pain differently because, you know, man, if I could push through this pain, God's going to be able to use this as well.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Talk about before we get into kind of the counseling work you're doing, I'd be really interested to know, kind of the. Don't have time to dive deep. I'm sure you could talk for hours on it, but just the relational dynamic with your wife as you were going navigating infertility and then deciding to make the decision to adopt and then what that journey of adoption was like, because we hear from couples where any part of that process can be such a stressor on them. You know, the infertility part can be such A stressor, the going through adoption and just kind of the ups and downs, you know, whether it's, you know, foster to adopt, international adoption, all those different options, each of them have their unique blessings and unique stressors. And whenever someone has walked that journey, I'm just always interested to kind of hear what they learned through it and how they're, you know, how they stayed focused in their marriage through it. Because it can be an isolating journey or something to push you closer together. So what did that look like for you guys?

Yeah, I think for, for us, some of both of what you mentioned, you know, there were some, some unity at moments. And then I think the struggle is, you know, for most guys, we don't experience any of that stuff in the same way our wives do.

Yeah, right.

The, the parenting, the motherhood is. That's a different ball game for women than it is for guys. I'm kind of like, ah, that didn't work. You know, let's try again kind of thing. You know, just another activity. So, yeah, I mean, certainly the whole. For we did in vitro, we did artificial inseminate. So, you know, the ups and downs of disappointment in that.

And it's expensive too, right? So it's not just the emotional disappointment, but just financial stress and all of it.

Yeah, yeah. So I think the disappointment of that, you know, sex becoming so mechanical, like, hey, it's time and let's do it and let's prop you up for 30 minutes. And he just. It takes a romance right out of that. And then I think what we learned in the whole adoption process clearly is we've got our own ideas and God's going to kind of do what he wants to do anyway. So I remember we filled out the first adoption, we filled out this acceptable child form. It was called, you want to feel bad about yourself, go fill that thing out. Because it, it basically listed page after page of possible things like drug use by the mom, alcohol use and then kid stuff. And I mean, you name it, cleft lips, club foot, you know, different stuff. And you had to put, would accept, would not accept or would discuss.

That is heavy.

It is because you just feel superficial. But we also, as kind of first time adopting parents and all the fears behind, you name it, right? Is it, what's it going to be like? And the kid realizes, you know, they have a birth parent out there and you. And so we were like, we'll not accept everything basically, except the superficial part of us. When it came to like race, we were like, we'll take half you know, Hispanic or something, because that'll be a beautiful kid. So I don't have time for the whole story now, but we get a call from the agency and they said, you said would discuss. We have to talk to you about it. But here's the scenario. The baby's half Hispanic. The birth father is a Norwegian, like, electrical engineering student at unlv. And the birth mom, it says Spanish and beautiful on the thing. And we're like, yeah, sign. Well, yes, we're in. Go ahead and send. Send us off. And they kept our profile for like three weeks because they couldn't decide between us and another couple. And they finally decided on the other couple.

Oh, wow.

And so the letdown of that, that was a Friday, Tuesday of the next week, we get a call and they say, hey, we've still got your, your profile here. It was one. It was at their location in Nevada. We have your profile here. You said yes to half Hispanic. And we just had a Mexican birth mom drop in, went to the hospital, said she had a plan with us, left the baby. And so we've got a baby for you. And so it was one of those, you know, God was like, well, I'll let you think you're getting what you think you're getting, and I'm gonna give you what I have for you.

Yeah, he's got something specific for you. So that was your first, your first.

That was, that was our first one. So we, you know, we could spend a whole series on this. But it's also been tough because our kids have had different. Our oldest was diagnosed with autism, high functioning autism. Our middle one was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. So, you know, I know every middle school, high school principal in the area by name, and they're all, they're 24, 22, and 19 now. We've had them all since babies, but it's been, that's been tough too. Right? You talk about the whole nurture versus nature debate, and we've had some definite challenges parenting as well. Wow.

Well, you guys have had, and still are having quite a unique, fascinating journey. And, you know, but I love how you're. You're helping people on the way. Like, you're so clearly, when you look at your life's work and it's, it's so focused on helping, Helping other couples. And so tell us what, what your work's looking like right now. I mean, as you know, with altered marriage, with your writing, with your counseling, what are you learning? What are you most passionate about when it comes to helping Marriages?

Yeah. I think most passionate would be just. Just trying to connect couples with. For me, just practical, simple tools and things we can do in our marriage. I think, you know, one of my frustrations over the years was bunch of great books on marriage. Right. There's tons of them. I've read most of them. A lot of them feel conceptual to me and. And sometimes hard to apply. And so I'm always trying to figure out what can I give that is easy. Like I can teach you this today and you can start doing it tomorrow and you can implement it and it's going to make a big, big impact in your marriage. So I think trying to connect people with tools and then just community. You know, my 15 years in church ministry, community is everything. And so I'm trying to figure out ways to. Whether it's an online class and you've got couples together, whether it's a retreat somewhere for six to eight couples. I do a marriage membership where we're trying to community online and do challenges together and connect people. I think just practical tools and community to me are the way to keep it going.

I love it. I love it. In your work, what are you seeing right now are some of the main struggles that couples are having. And I know that it's unique for everybody. But then also in the work that even we do here, we see a lot of patterns, I guess. And so what are you seeing right now?

Yeah, I think one would be just couples trying to figure out how to manage differences. I think that's one of the. You know, often I talk about one of the truths of marriage is, you know, you sign up for a set of irresolvable differences when you get married. And I think a lot of us have bought into the idea that we're going to create some kind of meet in the middle 50, 50 in all our differences. And for a lot of couples, I refer to it as just closing the gaps. A lot of couples we're not going to meet in the midd, but what are some things we can do to kind of move towards each other in our areas of biggest difference so they're not causing problems. So I think trying to manage differences and then if I had to give a couple categories, I would say everything, most everything else falls under, like either priority issues. We're really not being intentional with doing the things that need to be done week in, week out and expect in our marriages to kind of just drift into greatness. So I think priority issues and then protection issues, like we just don't have boundaries. We don't have healthy boundaries around friendships, opposite sex friendships, social media, in laws. I think somebody may have written a book on in laws recently. But. Yeah, but, you know, we just, we're not protecting our marriages and today people have too much access to us. Right. I mean, I could be cruising along great in my marriage and some chick can drop a DM in Instagram and, you know, up end it in a heartbeat, depending on where I'm at. So I think, you know, I would say priority, priority issues, protection issues, and then kind of managing differences would be three of the areas I think couples are struggling.

Yeah, that's so good. And right on the money. I mean, we're seeing a lot of those same things, but there's hope for folks that are in those places that you don't have to stay stuck. I mean, even just taking the time and listening to this podcast or watching it, if you're watching on YouTube. Being intentional about investing into your marriage is so key. And you provide Eric a lot of resources to help couples do that. You know, the, you know, your most recent book, why don't you start with that? Tell us, tell us about that. Tell folks about the book.

Yeah, so I've been doing a YouTube channel called Relation Shots for the last three years. And I really just said, you know what? I need something practical again. For me, I'm like, I want something. Give me something I can do every week. Don't give me a book that I read. And again, I love books. Love and respect. Phenomenal concept, right? The crazy cycle. You know, Gary Thomas's books are great, but I'm like, give me something that's like, read this this week, do this this week. So I took 52 of the concepts basically from some of my YouTube videos and created the book called Relation Shots, which is just a practical guide to relationship success. So chapters are three to four pages. It's one concept. So it may be, you know, three keys to listening or something, on resolving conflict or attachment styles or something. And a couple it. We've got some questions for the couples to answer and there's even a QR code. They can go watch my YouTube video if they, they want to kind of hear it live as well.

Yeah, I love it. And I love that format. And you know, especially for folks, sometimes folks will say like, oh, well, I'm not a, I'm not a huge reader, but I love the practical stuff. And it's like, well, this is, this is all that, you know, you get, you get that, that bite sized nugget that you can instantly apply and do that 52 times over the course of a year, your marriage is going to look different next year than it did.

You would like to think so, yeah, that kind of intentionality, for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. And it is. It's those little things over time. You know, I just, just before we got on this interview, I watched this guy do a transformation video where he was really overweight and he decided he was going to start working out. And he did a mere selfie every single day over the course of a year. And he put all those together, like, you know, real fast. So you saw 365 pictures and one next to the other one. You don't really see the change, but over time, like, the change was absolutely phenomenal. And then at the end, he looked completely different than he did at the beginning, just with that consistency and intentionality. And I think we get that with physical change, but in marriage, we sometimes lose sight of that. Folks will say, well, you know, I'll try this for a couple days, you know, and, well, I tried. I tried talking different for. I tried listening better for a couple days. Nothing changed. So I'm just going to go back to the way it was. But you got to stay consistent. You gotta. You gotta build on progress and keep going. And if you'll. If you'll keep doing that, it really does make a difference. You know, we've seen that over and over. We've seen that in our own marriage. We've seen that in the lives of others. Erica, I'm sure you've seen that in the couples that you've counseled. Well, if you're just. If you'll just stay consistent over time, you can build the marriage that you've always wanted. You really, no matter where you're starting from, you can get to a place that's healthy.

Yeah, for sure. And if we're playing the long game, right, if we're in marriage for life here. Right. For most of us, that's probably somewhere between 30 and 60 years of marriage. You know, we don't have to. It doesn't need to be resolved today. If we're making that progress, like the weight loss guy, you know, if I'm taking one step a day, a year from now, I'm going to look back and we're in a different place and we've improved this area. Now we can, you know, turn to another area.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. We do that. Then we get what to take some inspiration from your soccer days. You get what I Call the blessing of the mullet. And that is when the back part of your life is more richer and blessed than the front part. So, like, you end strong, right?

Absolutely. Well, there is. I mean, I've said this before, you know, in passing, but marriage is like a mullet. Right. There's business up top and party in the back. Right. But for a lot of couples, I think that is the problem going back to intentionality is. Is we're not intentional about when we do the business part of marriage, and we're not intentional about when we're going to have the fun party part of marriage. And, you know, you guys have four kids, right?

Yep. Four. Four boys.

If you're not intentional parenting, the four boys will consume the entirety of all of your time. It just will. And so I think for a lot of couples, we were not intentional with when we do business and when we do the. And if you don't, the business will take over the whole marriage.

I love it, man. That is such great advice, you know? So I want to give you a chance to leave us with some parting words here in just a minute. But I want to encourage and challenge all the listeners to. Guys, hey, look up the work that Eric is doing. Go to the YouTube channel Relation Shots. Check out the Relation Shots book. If you're in the Dallas Fort Worth area, I encourage you to look him up for counseling. And you might be even offering that. I'm not even sure, like, remotely.

Yeah, I do everything. Zoo.

You could be anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You don't. It doesn't matter where you live. You can. You can connect to Eric. And I am just a. I'm a huge proponent of counseling. Anyway, I mean, I think it's. And don't look at it as a last resort. I mean, if you're at a last resort, call a counselor, too. But do it to grow. Do it for maintenance. Do it just to stay strong. I mean, through the years, Ashley and I both individually and together, have benefited so much. And we're always telling folks, hey, talk to a professional counselor, professional Christian counselor. It will make a huge difference. Eric, the floor is yours. So we prepare to land the plane here. Tell us anything you want to tell us with some final challenges, thoughts, and also anything else about how folks can get in contact with you.

Yeah, I would say for couples, if, you know, wherever they are, I think the. And I just talked to a couple yesterday, same thing. They've been to one of my retreats last year, and I asked them, hey, have you done what we talked about? On the last session of the retreat. And the answer was no. And basically what we did was try to help couples come up with a relationship rhythm. Again, I think if we're not intentional, life is going to take over the marriage. And again, the fun part of the marriage kind of looks like a high school dance or middle school dance where all the boys are standing against the wall with their arms cross, don't know what to do. You know, it's like, that's the fun part of marriage. It's not going to insert itself in, but the business will, right? If you don't pay the mortgage, you're out. If you don't get the kids to school and the doctor's appointments. And so I think for couples establish, if they don't have one, establishing a relationship rhythm. You know, when do we have the moments? I'll encourage a lot of couples that literally have no intentionality starting point. I'm like, do a once a week staff meeting, Do a once a week date night and do a couple, what I call quick connections, which are just 10 to 15 minutes. Phones are down, kids are in bed. You're just connecting for the purpose of connecting. Because too many times we have no connecting moments. Right. All our conversations are logistical. They're problem solving, they're conflict resolving. And that's not fun. Nobody signed up for that. You know, I signed up because my wife loved my mullet and we had fun together. I didn't, I didn't sign up for marriage so we could argue about parenting and finances and that kind of stuff. So I think for couples to establish some kind of relationship rhythm where it's like, this is when we're talking about this and this is when we're sitting down just to connect and we're not going to let the kids and the, the triggering issues come in because these are our moments to connect. I think just having a rhythm would serve a lot of couples well.

Oh, man. Yeah, that's. And, and guys, you're listening. Guys and gals, just start with that. If you're not already at a weekly date night, weekly kind of business meeting. And then a few of those check in times where you add that strategically, intentionally to whatever you're doing right now, and that'll make such a difference, those moments, just to connect. Because without it, we just drift. We drift. But even if you're in a season of drift right now, you don't have to stay there. You know, just come back to these connection points, do them consistently, and you'll be, you'll be amazed where your marriage could be a year from now. So keep at it, man. Eric, thank you so much for not only coming on the podcast, but just for the work that you're doing out there to help restore marriages, encourage marriages. You're a hero and we appreciate it. We are so thankful that we got to connect today.

Yeah, no, I appreciate what you guys do. Been following you for quite a while as well. And so speaking on the relationship Rhythm, if anybody, I've got a freebie. Okay. I wouldn't come on here without a freebie. Alteredmarriage.com naked I've got people can download a free relationship Rhythm. It's about a 10, 8 to 10 page guide that'll kind of walk them through how do we set it out, how do we prioritize and how do we set it up so if anybody wants that, they can grab that man.

Thank you. Thank you for that. And friends, that link will be in the show notes and Altered Marriage, by the way it's spelled the cool way, like the altar where you pray A L, T A r e d marriage.com naked. Right? Did I say that right?

There you go. Yep. Naked.

And thank you for that gift. And you guys go and check that out. Check out relation shots and keep being intentional about building your marriage. Guys, we love and appreciate all of you. Share this episode with a friend, text it out to somebody or put it on social media. I know it would encourage those folks. We appreciate all that you guys do to partner with us and spreading these important conversations. And we look forward to seeing you next time you.