Racism and Marriage | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave and Ashley Willis

You know, 2020 has been a difficult year for a lot of couples. In fact, the divorce rates have spiked. A lot of couples have written us saying this has been the most difficult year of our marriage yet. But in a lot of good ways. Exo Marriage, the ministry we're a part of, the ministry that makes this podcast possible and many other resources possible for that matter, has helped to restore and encourage and even save many marriages this year and over the many years of its history. And that's been possible because of the faithful giving of those who've partnered with us. And so we just want to say thank you to those who've given to XO Marriage. Your tax deductible gifts have really fueled and funded this ministry and it's literally saved marriages and kept families intact. And we just want to say thank you.

We do. And you know, we absolutely love being part of the team here at ExoMarriage. We love coming to you through these podcasts, but we want you to have that same experience of being a part of changing marriages for the better. And so why not end 2020 on a high note and give to this ministry? You can do that by going to xomarriage.com give. Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And we have an amazing bonus episodes with our friends today. I cannot wait for you to hear from Tim and Juliet Ross.

Yes, Tim and Juliet are awesome. If you're, if you're not watching this, if you're only listening on itunes or on Spotify. And we're so glad you're listening, but you might want to go over to YouTube.

Yes.

Because right now, live, Tim and Juliet are making out on camera. And you can watch it. You can watch this by popping kissing. That's how in love they are.

And we, we love 299.

They are. They are just some of the most authentic, wonderful, pure hearted, Jesus loving people on the planet. They lead Embassy City Church, you know, here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. They're wonderful parents, they are writers, they are influencers in all parts of life. And we are just honored to call them our friends. And so Tim and Juliet, welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

We love you guys.

We missed you guys.

Yeah, it's been a long time.

It's way too long. I think about you guys all the time. Thank you, guys. You guys are rock stars.

But also we wanted you guys to share your wisdom because every time I hear the two of you teach, whether it's from a big stage or just talking one on one with somebody, the wisdom you share just from your authenticity, from your real life, it impacts people. And in terms of marriage, which is what this podcast is all about, you two are just doing it right. And you've done it right through all these seasons of marriage, of raising kids, and still in the thick of raising kids, of. Of leadership, of just all of the different seasons and stresses of life. And I just wanted to give you guys an opportunity to talk about how you do it so well, because you obviously do it so well. Just being around you. You can just see, man, these are two people. They genuinely not only they love each other, they actually like each other.

Well, that's because I pay him good money to act right in front of people.

Right?

She doesn't pay me in money.

Uh oh, there he is.

He.

Keep it back.

The first thing out of your mouth was sex.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, exactly. That's all Ashley talks about. I can't get her to talk or think about anything else. Sometimes I have to tell her, listen, I'm not just a piece of meat here.

You want to be my piece of.

Meat on demand for you. Like, I have a heart, I have feelings, I just sometimes want to be held. And she's.

I don't even know how to answer that.

Before I get us too far off the rails, tell us a little bit about just life right now. Like, in the midst of when we're recording this, we're still in the thick of COVID 19. And, you know, life and the world looks differently. You know, our churches, many of them are not meeting in person. We're not seeing people face to face the way that we once did. Life's just weird right now in so many ways. But what's life looking like for you? What's life looking like in the Ross house?

Yeah, so I'll go first. So Covid hit, and they said quarantine. And for some reason, I heard sabbatical. I don't know if. Hey, you know, I had to, like, kind of check my ears. I'm like, they kept saying quarantine, everybody stay home. And I'm like, all I heard was sabbatical, stay in the house. And I was like, this is the.

Best thing ever when you're just an introvert.

Right? Me too.

Me too. I have love this season. I hope no one's watching from our church. Mad. But no, like, I have loved, like, the time I've had with Juliet. The time I've had With my boys, the time I've had with the Lord.

Like, it's been great.

It's been. I mean, outside of the people who have got Covid and died, which.

Yeah, that part's not great.

It's terrible.

No, no, no.

Everything else been kind of great.

Well. And you've been in such a long season of pouring out.

Pouring out that now that I will say that. I will say that. I'm glad you brought that up, Dave. Cause I did have to speak five months straight, so that wasn't cool. Right. I've been preaching for 24 years. I've never preached five months in a row. And then had to speak into issues on Covid and make decisions about that. And then had to speak into issues on racism. Like, all of my white friends called me and was like, okay, so please help me. So that part was. That was intense.

Well, let's be. Just let me clarify. Let's be clear on what he means by the part that's great. It's just the fact that everything was shut down and nothing really required him to leave the comfort of his home.

Right, right.

So that's.

I was totally tracked on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But just in case whoever's listening, you know, I just wanted to make sure that part of it is what he enjoyed, is like, man, I'm not required to go anywhere right now. I've got to stay home. And him being an introvert, that was like, you told him that he's about to be living his best life for the next three to six months. But in that time, during that time, he actually still was working.

Yes.

And he was doing a lot of work, I'm sure. But he was able to do the brunt of it from home. So that kind of helped, you know? But, yeah, he had been doing quite a bit of talking. Quite a bit of every bit of everything. You know, a lot of things. All the things. Right, all the things. Yeah, all the things.

No, I think God has blessings hidden even in. Even in what we might consider the hardest of seasons. And that's one of the blessings is like, I know in our house, too, it kind of forced us to slow down. We've grown a lot as a family. I think we've been able to rest more. We've been able to just breathe a little bit, even though there is a lot of stress going on. We even got Covid. We were sick, which we did a whole episode talking about that, which was really hard and gave us a lot of compassion for those who had it worse than we did even. But so much good has come in this season. And I think if we'll all look at it through that lens, that, like, you know, there is in every season, in every season, there are blessings if we look for them.

Yeah, for sure.

And that's been one even for our family. Is that the time we've had together? And I am thankful for that.

Why don't Dave. You know, I'm an introvert, too. I can totally relate, Tim. Like, totally.

Can you imagine that? He's so great.

I know.

Well, I love people. People. I think sometimes people misunderstand what being an introvert really is. It's like where you get your energy. For sure. You know, you get. Introverts get their energy from having time alone and just having that quiet where you're just by yourself and we're okay being by ourselves. You know, not that we don't want to be with people, but, you know, I know for me, maybe you can relate, Tim. Like, I love going to our conferences and speaking and meeting all the people and signing the books. Like, I love it. It's my favorite part. But afterwards, after about four hours, yes, we're totally. If you can't see us, we are doing a high five. No, I had to go home and sleep. Like, I literally. It takes everything out of me, but it's. And people are like, oh, you hate it. And I'm like, no, no, it's the opposite. Like, I love it. It's one of my favorite parts of what we do and hearing people's stories and engaging. But then I have to go home and I have to. It's like how I refuel. And Dave has been so sweet about understanding that about me, and I often, you know, I have no problem resting. But one thing with Dave, he's kind of a mixture introvert, extrovert, and he has a really.

He's a schizavert. It's like a schizo. It's like, I just love everything. There we go.

Well, he literally took an assessment once, and that's really what he was. He's a combination. And I'm totally. They were like, yeah, you are introvert all the way. Like, all the questions you answered were introvert, you know, and with Dave, it was a little bit of both. But he has a really hard time. And I think part of it is he feels guilty. And in Covid. You have really been good about just being like, okay, rest is good. I can rest. Like, he just feels like there's always something I need to be doing. And if I'm resting, it's just piling up.

That sounds so familiar.

So, Julia, me and you had started a support group.

We needed.

Well, and what helped me is realizing that just the rhythm that God created the world, you know, he rested. That, you know, Jesus rested. Jesus would get away from the crowds, you know, and he. And just to pray and to rest. And all through scripture, you know, you see that God also, you know, commands us to work. And if we don't work, we're being disobedient. But then he also commands us to rest. And those who won't rest are being disobedient. And so sometimes we can sin in our stubbornness to not slow down. And I'm. I don't know, I've been guilty of that. And this season has helped me. Kind of forced me to pry my fingers off of the steering wheel of certain things and just say, you know what? I'm going to rest. And when we rest, it affirms our trust in God and his sovereign nature that he's in control. It restores our soul. And I've needed to learn the hard way sometimes that it's not only a gift, but it's a command.

It is.

And.

But listen, here's the other thing. The other thing is, if I don't do it, it ain't gonna get me right there.

Is that right? So that's what it is.

It's like, I do. I wanna rest. Cause I'm tired. But if I don't do it, it's not gonna get done. So production, you gotta. Let's do it well.

And it's hard to rest when that's on your mind.

Right?

You know, that's the hard thing. And I think with Dave, that's what it was is like I have this thing that is just right there and it's not letting me rest because I gotta get it done.

I have to finish it right when we got Covid.

You know, I won't dwell on this, but the one thing that was so hard about it is that we were more tired than we'd ever been for two weeks. And for that period, I was so tired. It was like one of the first times in my life that, like, all the stuff that I thought I had to get, I just. I literally didn't care.

Forced you to rest.

I knew that I couldn't do it. Like, I couldn't walk, you know, I couldn't walk to the back of the house. I didn't have that energy. So I just knew, Lord, I can't get any of that done. So I'm just going to rest. And then I kind of emerged from that, and it was amazing. The sun still came up every morning, the house hadn't burned down, and I was like, everything's still here. You know, like, why don't I do that more often? Why do I wait until I'm, you know.

Now it's gonna take, like, nine years.

For me to finish a project, so. Yeah, it really will. So we. Yeah, but no, I get it.

I'm just being.

It was good for me, though, to, like, have to rest and some.

But the rest is good. Like, I do want to rest. Like, I don't not want to rest. Any opportunity I get to sort of sneak away or be whisked away. Like, Jesus, I'm here for it, right?

Yeah, you're here.

I'm here for it.

But, yes, hey, I want to circle back to something that, you know, is heavy, but it's, like, really important. It's not really, like, marriage related per se, but I just think it's such an important issue that with your wisdom, this isn't something you brought up. I'd love to hear your perspective on it. Like, right now, our nation and really our world is facing just unprecedented, you know, racial. Racial tension. And I want to ask you two as just people that I love and trust, because here's just the, you know, honest truth. I'm. If you're not watching this, I'm a white guy and I've got, I know, a lot of, like, blind spots. And so what would you say? What would you encourage your brothers and sisters? Love Jesus, love people. And they're white like me. And I know that I've got blind spots. Like, what do you. What do you think? What do you believe needs to happen to really bring unity? What can we as married couples, whether we're, you know, white couples or mixed race couples or couples of African American couples, wherever we are, what can we do to use our marriages as a way to bring more healing and more unity and more understanding? Because when a lot of the riots started happening, I found myself thinking, like, man, I want to do something, and I don't know where to start. Like, I really don't know where to start. And so I know there's all this pain that's happened over the course of centuries that I don't understand, and I want to understand it more. And so teach us wise friends, like, what?

I know.

That's a. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, we could talk for hours.

I'm sure about this.

But like. But what? All I've been telling all of my white brothers and sisters is, learn three Ls. Listen, learn and be loud.

I love that.

Listen, have a com, have the conversations. Learn. Because listening and learning are two different things.

That's right.

And then just be loud about what you listen and learned. I had a great opportunity to be on a call with. Oh, man. How come I can't think of his last name right now? Henry Cloud's friend, Johnson Townsend.

Yeah, yeah.

I was adult.

You just start calling out last week.

So I had John Wilson Smith.

Every time. Every time I kept thinking about John, I kept thinking about Maxwell. But John Townsend. In the midst of all the stuff that had happened with Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, he said, hey, I'm just gonna open up my platform and we're just gonna do a video session. And I only want my black friends to call. Like, that's the only people I want to speak to. He said, but I don't want to have a conversation with you. I want it to be a monologue.

Wow.

I just need to listen to you. He was like, I don't have anything to add. The only time I'm going to interject is if I need clarification on something. But I just need to hear from you. And I think what happens is when stories are far away from us, it's an issue when they're close. It's a person.

Yes.

Right.

So it can be those people are doing all this bad stuff, and I can't believe that they have this thought process. But when you're in relationship, it's like, oh, Tim and Juliet feel that.

Right.

It's not just some people. That's an angry mob on television or, you know, some people that are into a movement that doesn't line up with our Christian values. It's really about, oh, this is at a personal level with people that I love, and I need to understand that. So the listening is important. The learning. What that's about gives context. So just two quick things. My mom was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. Her mom was a wet nurse for white women.

Wow.

If you don't know what that means.

I do know.

You know what that means.

You're breastfeeding.

Yeah. She breastfed white babies.

Right.

For wealthy white women that didn't want their breast to sack.

Oh, wow.

So their children were on my grandmother's breast for four to six hours a day, but she had to bring them to the back door to drop them back off.

Well, I Mean, that's, I mean, make that make sense.

Unthinkable, right?

It's just crazy.

Also, on my mother, on my mother's side, I'm only three generations removed from slavery. So my mom's dad's dad came here on a boat from Ghana.

Oh, my goodness.

So when we talk about this stuff, it seems like it's far away. Like, I don't understand. And slavery was so long ago. My great grandfather was brought here on a slave ship. So that's not too far ago. I didn't say great, great, great, great, great.

Right?

This is not The Jesus begats 40 and two generations. It's three generations ago. My grandfather's, my great grandfather's bought here on a slave boat from, from Ghana. And just having those experiences and having the conversations that my grandparents had to have with my parents, that my parents had to have with me has informed the way we've had to live in this country. And when that narrative is not validated, it's very hurtful and it's very angering. And so now none of my white friends have been those type of people. But it has been in those conversations that we've grown closer together.

So Ashley and I are trying to get healthy this year. And one thing that I'm having a hard time giving up is sweet, sugary cereal. Because I. All my life I've been addicted for breakfast, for snacks, to eating these sweet, sugary cereals. So I am so excited about a new sponsor for the Naked Marriage podcast called Magic Spoon. They sent us a brand new pack of their high protein, super healthy cereal. And my family tried it and I'm telling you, we loved it. When I think about healthy and cereal together, I usually think it's going to taste like cardboard. I might as well just eat the box. But this stuff immediately took me back to my childhood. It has zero sugar in it. It has 11 grams of protein, only 3 grams of net carbs in each serving. It has four flavors right now. We sampled them all. I think fruity was actually my favorite, which surprised me. I thought it was going to be something else. It literally tastes amazing. Honestly, like, too good to be true. But it is true. It's keto friendly, gluten free, grain free, soy free, low carb, and GMO free. If you go to magicspoon.com naked and grab the variety pack and use the promo code naked, you're going to get free shipping. We're really grateful for Magic Spoon for being a sponsor of the Naked Marriage podcast and supporting this ministry once again. That is magicspoon.com naked and use the promo code naked for free shipping.

As you all know, we love a date night and we definitely encourage couples to have a regular date night. But during this time, many of us have had to get a little creative and with the date nights we go on.

Yeah, that's right. And so I'm so excited about the newest sponsor of the Naked Marriage podcast. They're called Unbox Love and they are here to make date night a lot easier. They want to give you an at home date night that you're going to love.

Every month, the Unbox Love team puts their heads together and comes up with an awesome date night. They plan activities that allow couples to learn about each other, experience something new together, and make memories that will last. And then they wrap all of that up in a box and send it to you, which is just awesome.

And the themes are amazing. So each date is built on a theme. Past themes have been stuff like a trip to Italy and the brand new 1 90s date night. And I am so excited about this. So in this box right now, there is a box of 1990s pop trivia, which I just geek out on. And then a bunch of like snacks and candies that were available in the 90s that I haven't seen seen since. This is like opening a time capsule taking me back to the 90s. And I just want to jump in the box and live there because I kind of loved the 90s. This. It's so fun. It's so creative. You and your spouse, whether you're young, old, in between, you will have so much fun with the themed date night boxes.

You will. And in every date night box, you'll find a game or activity to do together, curated snacks from unique vendors, and then you'll also find ideas to continue to stay connected, like sticky notes to leave for your spouse, which I think is so fun.

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That'S unboxlove.com naked. So as a next step for those who are listening, they're like, you know, I want to have, I want to listen, I want to learn. In addition to having the conversations, are there any specific resources you would point people to. To, like, say, you know, watch this or read this or listen to this as a first step. In addition to having those conversations, this is something that. That can help you move in the. In the direction of being more understanding of what our experience has been.

Yeah. There's a great book by Miles McPherson called the Third Option.

Okay.

And he talks all about this stuff. He talks about white privilege. He talks about systemic racism in a way that's very palatable. It's coming from a godly man who's not angry.

Right. And he's. And he's both black and white.

Yeah, that's right.

Exactly.

So he has a unique perspective.

Perspective. And a pastor. And I love Pastor Miles.

The Third option is what?

The third option.

Jane Elliot. Is that her last name, too?

Jane Elliot.

Jane Elliot.

Oh, Jane Elliot.

She's a great.

Yeah. You can just look her up on YouTube.

Jane Elliot is an older white woman who was.

I've watched her videos. Yes.

She's phenomenal.

She is phenomenal. I shared some, like.

Absolutely.

I could just watch her all day.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And she's a white woman.

Yes.

And she's letting you know this ain't right, you know? And she breaks things down with such ease, you know? And she's very truthful and very transparent, and it's almost like a. She's almost like a white advocate, you know? And that's the thing. No one is. No one advocates for anything unless it directly affects them.

You're right.

That's the bottom line. And until it directly affects you or closely affects you, then it's just a distant problem.

Yeah. Right.

I mean, for example, do you know anybody that has malaria?

No.

No.

You don't know anybody that has malaria.

We lived in Africa or certain parts of the world.

You would. So are you doing anything right now to advocate for people with malaria? No, because you see what I'm saying? So it's not directly affecting you, and you're not doing anything to go and advocate for it. It's not even close to you. But now you have friends that could be affected by something. If you had a loved one who passed away from a disease such as cancer or something like that, whatever. You just sort of become a bit more of an advocate for something because it closely affects you. Right. You have more sympathy now for those who have been affected with COVID Oh, yeah. Because you had it. Right. It directly affects you. And so that's the thing with people. They don't become advocates or. You know, we really want to learn about this until it hits a bit closer to home. And so it. It does. It consists of our brothers and sisters being open and transparent to want to learn. Right. And not here to be defensive.

Oh, yes, right.

So you have to hear. To try to get the best understanding you can get. Because you'll never fully understand, of course, but you can try to get the best understanding. And what can I do to learn and to make sure that I'm not repeating these things?

And that is actually one thing that I share with my friends. And I'm just gonna tweak what you said a little bit. Tweak it, honey, Because I think you can fully understand it. Cause you're smart enough to take in the information I'm telling you, you'll never experience it. The difference between understanding something and experiencing it.

Right.

Those are two different things. And so I. I've. You know, I heard my. When some of my white friends would say, I know I'll never. I'll never fully understand it. Because I'm like, no, you. Do you understand what I'm telling you? And they're like, yeah, then I'm like, then you understand what I'm saying. You're just never going to experience it. In the same way, I don't have to become a woman to understand that women need their rights protected, and you know what I mean?

But as a man, I can understand how childbirth works.

You're never going to experience it.

I'm never going to feel that pain.

Yeah. Yeah. But you could articulate what you've heard to somebody else and advocate for an epidural, Right?

Yes.

Right.

Right.

And I think for me, something that kind of convicted me in all this is I didn't fully. And probably. And I know I still don't fully realize how much pain there. There was that. That my black friends were experiencing, have just carried as. As part of their. Their life that there's been this pain that they've carried. And I didn't even begin to understand the depth of that. And I still don't fully understand the depth of that. But it just kind of peeled back the curtain and let me see just how much hurt that there has been and gave me a glimpse of that. And it convicted me that I've just kind of lived oblivious to that, even though I've had black friends. But like you said, I've not experienced.

It walking in your shoes.

And it just. It made me want to listen a whole lot more.

Yeah, I think there's a different. And I understand what Timmy is saying, but I still think there's a different level of understanding that will come with experience.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, there's a deeper depth of an understanding. That's why I said you don't ever fully understand because there's a true, there's a depth to the word understanding that can only come with an experience. And so I think for, you know, for you all, I have a few white friends who they are, they are big time advocates. They are like, they're married to black men. You know, they have mixed children. They're even more closely related because their mixed child comes home. And so somebody told me the N word. Right. And then although they're white, you know, they, it's now a different dynamic. They have a deeper understanding because now somebody that came out of them is now, you know, racially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is now racially profiled and so. Or has been verbally attacked by somebody that again, they still won't have a full understanding. But it is a deeper connection. But yes, I do agree what you're saying is you can learn, you can be open to feel and empathy towards it and it just has to be that desire. You have to want to. But again, if you're responding just to react, then you're just defeating the purpose, you know, and if you're responding just to say I'm on board, but you still, you know, it's almost like I shouldn't have to have 8,000 conversations with you for you to get it right. Right. You know, it's like there are things you will learn from teaching. I teach my kids. Right. I do have to teach them certain things over and over until they understand it more, where they can function with it. But I shouldn't have to keep teaching them the same thing 9,000 times. For them to get it, at some point you gotta, it's gotta. With all thy getting. Get an understanding, you know, with all that getting so.

And I think just a willingness to learn. I mean, if anything, I think I'm hoping that everyone, everyone, you know, in the United States, but also the world, that we all realize we have a lot to learn, that we need to be advocates, that we need to point out when something is wrong.

Absolutely.

You know, and as I think as a mom, you know, it's really when I've heard from my friends, you know, where their children, you know, they're afraid for their children, that really gets me, that hits close to home. And again, I can't, I don't have the experience, but that I've listened to many podcasts about that and just, you know, it's just like, it shouldn't be that way, you know, And I want to be part of making it better and not being part of the problem and not, you know, making assumptions or not, like. Not like you said, not being willing to have the conversation and just being on the defensive. I mean, it just, you know, we want to be the change. We don't want to.

And standing up for when you see injustice. Absolutely. For somebody else. You know, I think the silence is another big thing. And, you know, there's many issues in this whole thing. You know, there's.

Yes, there's the ra.

Yeah. There's the racial. Then there's the injustice, you know, And I think even within justice, a lot of people, when we. When we have police brutality and all these things and police killings and, you know, there's some. Some white brothers and sisters that are like, I just don't understand if they would have just done this, you know, this would have. Well, no, you know, there's many examples of why that doesn't work. And I think there's so many different levels and layers to what we need to get an understanding for. And you may not be able to understand what it's like to be black and be pulled over and gonna get a gun pulled on you because you didn't have your seatbelt on or just for no reason. Yet. At the same time, it's still an unfair thing to say, is that you've never had an injustice done to you in your entire life. So injustice is a thing in and of itself. And if you can't relate on anything, you can at least be able to relate on that. Yes, that I have felt an injustice in my life some way. So if I can take that now, how much more do they feel? Right.

Yeah.

You see what I'm saying? So it's taking the time to apply.

It gives that more empathy. I think that empathy and compassion is part of what makes you two such powerful unifiers. I mean, even in some of the most divided. I mean, I know, Tim, you've had great influence in the local police department where you are. Your friendship with the chief. And then you've got great influence. Like, you've. You've. You've built such trust as individuals and as a family and as a church to bring in all different types of people and to. And so what, like what you've done at Embassy City Church and within your family to bring together all different kinds of people, all different kinds of backgrounds, which is the heart of Jesus by the way. But what is it going to take, like, just on a big picture level, do you think, for even for the church to do a better job of that? Like the capital C church? Because most churches haven't done what your church has done. You know, it's more segmented. And that's just. It's sad, but that's the way it is. Yours, I think, is a much better representation of the kingdom and what Jesus taught us to do. But yet most churches, they just like, well, I'm going to hang out with people who looked, act, think, vote, believe. Like me and everybody else is them. It's us and them. And you've, you know, you've brought unity in Jesus name in a really beautiful way. And so what's the secret sauce there?

So I'm so glad you asked this question.

It's okay. Great question.

Jazz hands.

Jazz hands.

So here's the biggest division that Jesus came to resolve was not black and white. It was not elephant, donkey, it was not cowboys, redskins. It was not any of these subcategories of division that exist. It was Jew, Gentile. In Genesis, chapter number 12, God called a man and established a covenant with that man that set him apart from any other nation in the entire world. And from that time to the time of Jesus death on the cross, Jews, which have a covenant with God and can trace their lineage back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Gentiles, which means everybody else, right? What makes a Gentile Gentile? The fact that they're not a Jewish that can connect themselves back to Jacob.

Right.

Paul says it so beautifully in the book of Ephesians that in Christ's broken body on the cross, he took Jews and Gentiles and in his own body produced a new group of people called the Church. That was his solution, was, hey, I know you guys have been fighting about all this kind of stuff all over the place, but I just want you to know, instead of Jews and Gentiles, it's just gonna be my church. Y' all are all now my bride. And I'll come back to get you later. So iron out the wrinkles in this dress because I'm coming back. It is so simplistic, but we live in such a divided world that we have made idols out of our thing, and we can make anything a thing, right? I mean, you think about the idols that you find in ancient civilization, and it's like a wooden statue carved out of a tree. So let me get this straight. You cut down a tree, and out of that tree, you shaved down some wood and made a thing and then set it up above you and you worshiped it like you were their God. You created them and now you're worshiping the thing that you created. We do that with ethnicity, we do that with nationalism, we do that with patriotism. We do that with football teams, we do that with the college we went to. We do that with our bank accounts. We do that with the degrees that hang on our walls. And Christ is saying, I came to abolish all of that because there's only been one distinction that from heaven's perspective, it's been those I've had covenant with and everybody else. And I've called a family reunion. And if you come into my body, you no longer get to hold onto your idol.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

And so I've told people at Embassy City Church, because we have such a multi ethnic church, I don't call it multicultural. We have one culture is kingdom culture, but we're many ethnicities. So what I tell everybody at Embassy City of all backgrounds is if you love your ethnicity more than you love your identity in Christ, you have an idol.

Yeah.

And we're just asking you to lay it down and consider yourself a believer first. It's not a black church, not a white. Anything you put in front of his church is your idol.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That is, man.

Even politics.

That's so good.

Like, I'm just like, pick up this mic and drop it. Just do it.

It's really expensive.

It is expensive.

So let's just do the imaginary mic. Or somebody can meme it. That's fine too.

That's right. That is it.

That's so good.

I wish every Christian. I mean, I think if the church would get that, because right now I think people look at the church from the outside and they just see such a misrepresentation of Christ and what he's called us to do. But what you just articulated, which is so biblical and so true, if the church could get that and people outside the church could recognize that that's what the church is and is meant to be like, that would spark revival and that would spark unity and healing within the church. And the church could be this force of healing in our culture instead of this force of, like, division in our culture.

It would take the church leaders to get their theology out the way, to get their biases out the way, to get their political affiliations out the way, to get everything out of the way. That is not like Christ. Yeah, that's the bottom line. They would Literally have to strip themselves of their own thought process, of their own everything, and remove that and say, okay, Lord, what do you want this church to look like? And so, again, it's. I digress. So that it's. I decrease that you can increase. This is the same thing. And I just don't think we're doing that enough. You know, I just. I just really don't think we're doing that enough as leaders. Because if we were, then there wouldn't be this big misrepresentation that you talk about.

Very true.

Man, this is.

This is so good, guys.

I needed this. This is gold.

It really is.

Yes.

I could just.

My mind is going. I'm just like, okay.

I can just sit.

Listen to this again.

Yeah.

So good. Yeah.

Sit and listen to you guys share all day. I mean, we got it. This is.

You guys are so awesome.

This is good. Guys, we. We're out of time. I don't know where the time went. Like, there was a bunch of other stuff I was gonna ask you about. Like, I had a whole bunch of stuff.

There you go.

Part two.

We just gotta come back.

That's right. You have to come back.

Just do a part two.

Hey, listen, we would love that.

We're here for it.

But, hey, before. Before we go, like, tell people where that want to continue the conversation. They want to learn more about your ministry. They want to watch sermons, they want to read your book, they want to come to your church, they want to stalk you on Facebook and all that. You know, where can people go to find more about the Ross family?

Yeah. So Embassy City church is just embassycity.com if you want to find out more information about the church. I wrote a book called Upset the World.

Come on.

Upset the world in 2020. 2017 is when we started on this book. We had no idea 2020 would be what it is. I just finished the audiobook two weeks ago, and it was uncanny as I read through it, how current it feels. And so I just encourage everybody to pick up that book, but prepare yourself to be upset.

Hey, yeah, we need that.

Yeah, absolutely.

In all the best kind of ways.

In all the best kind of ways.

Absolutely. Pick up that book Upset the world you can find and look up Upset the Graham on Instagram.

Yes. I love that.

Sweetie, do you have any final words of wisdom? You're the smart and the beautiful one in this relationship. I don't know about that.

I don't know about that.

But I just am so thrilled that you guys. I know you're busy. I know You've got a lot going on and you spent time to do this and to share with us. And I know the listeners and the watchers are getting so much out of this. So thank you all so much.

Thank you for having us. Thank you for asking us, us to be on here with you guys. You guys are just so amazing and I, I treasure and value you both.

You guys agree?

Yeah. So thank you.

We're going to do this again. Like, seriously. And I know they're going to be like, please have them on again. Like, we want to continue the conversation.

Actually, could they just take over the podcast?

Just have him and Juliet once a year.

You and Ashley can come on as a guest. Like, we just want to hear from.

Them so that they might be like more.

You might not see us anymore. This might be our last one, but that'd be fine because I would tune in every single week for sure.

Yes.

There's so great. Thank you.

Thank you both and just praying God's blessings on your beautiful family, your church and the two of you and praying blessings on you who are watching and listening right now. We thank you guys for tuning in. We appreciate you subscribe to this, you know, leave reviews, all those things help others discover the, the important messages like the ones we talked about today. And we will look forward to seeing you next time. God bless.

Bye Bye.

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