Say this More Often with Mark Batterson | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And you guys are in for a real treat. We are interviewing one of our heroes, you know, that we've kind of known of and read his books from a distance for a long time. We're so excited we get to have a conversation with him today and I know you're going to enjoy it. But before we get to that, I want to share one of our new reviews. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to write a review. If you have not written a review and you love this podcast, please go and do so. So on Apple Podcasts. It's the best way to spread the message of the Naked Marriage Podcast and help marriages all over the world. Today's review is from 72 bank and it's entitled New Listener. And this person gave us five stars. So thank you so much.

Thank you.

It says this thank you for this podcast. I listen when driving to patients homes, married for 25 years this coming October. And your podcast helps to get through challenges I have and find comfort in knowing other Christians also have and have overcome. Thank you again. God bless you all. Candy. Well, thank you, Candy. Thank you for the work you're doing in helping patients. And we're so glad the Naked Marriage podcast can make your day a little brighter.

Yes, those reviews do mean so much for us and they help other people discover the podcast. So thanks for your partnership and helping spread the word. So today's episode is a great one, guys. One of our heroes, like Ashley said, Pastor Mark Batterson, the pastor of National Community church in Washington, D.C. the author of many books that have personally impacted our lives in big ways. And he's here today to talk to us about three words that could radically transform your marriage. And those three words are.

Please.

Sorry. Thanks. Those three words also make up the title of his new, newest book, Please. Sorry. Thanks. And we're going to talk all about what that means. You can learn more about Pastor Mark on social media, Instagram, Twitter, by going to arkbatterson. He's a great follow on social media and you're going to love today's conversation, so let's dive in. Hey, friends, like I said in the intro, you are in for a treat today. And I know I say that every week and so it almost loses credibility, but this time I really mean it. Extra because we have got the one and only Dr. Mark Batterson, Pastor, prolific writer, and really just one of the one of the most influential voices in the church and a guy that's impacted me from a distance for so many years. So this really is a privilege to have him on the podcast. So, Pastor Mark, welcome, welcome.

Hey. My joy and privilege. And we discovered that we have a few things in common. So this is. This is going to be a fun conversation.

Yes.

I can't wait.

We cannot wait. Yeah. Just right out of the gate, we realized we have a mutual friend in common. Joel Malm, who we went to Machu Picchu with. And Mark said that he has a really cool story about also going to the Inca Trail and what happened afterwards. You want to share that with us?

Well, why don't we dive right in? Yeah, let's go.

Let's go for it.

First of all, though, can we just talk about the people who take the bus up to Machu Picchu? Like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Maybe they know better.

That's not. That is not how you're supposed to get there. You need to hike through Dead Widows Pass and get a. Get an oxygen deprivation headache to really appreciate Machu Picchu. Can I get in again?

I have to agree. I have to agree. And we definitely had it. I got acute mountain sickness. So it was. It was.

Now, having said that, I do need to. To say this, that the first night camping on the trail, there was a strange mechanical sound, like the blowing up of an inflatable mattress kind of in the midst of nature. And, you know, hard to believe someone would actually bring an inflatable mattress on this trip. And you're looking at them that I'm the guy. I'm the guy.

Smart. It is smart.

Yes.

Listen, everybody else was. Was making fun of me, but not. Not every morning when I slept great on my inflatable mattress. So that's. There's.

That's just wisdom, right?

That is wisdom. Hey, we have tools. We have good tools these days.

That's awesome. Now. But. But then after the hike, we had this crazy idea to go paragliding over the Sacred Valley. And you know how you ever have an idea that sounds really good until you're about to do it?

Many times. Many times. Yes.

I. You guys, I got like. It was like a. We're about to jump off a cliff. That's a 10,000 foot drop into the Sacred Valley. And so I'm like, give me some kind of orientation here. 32nd. 32nd orientation that basically consisted of run off of the cliff as fast as you can, then lift your legs. And I'm like, that's all you've got. That's what we're doing.

Feel safe.

Oh, my gosh.

So you know what I did? Like any good father, I let my son go first.

Let you test it out, you know. Oh, my God.

It was. I checked a few life goals off of that list. And just since. Since I know we're talking marriage and family, I'll just say this. That, man, a turning point in my life was when I took some of these life goals and added a relational component. Yeah. In other words, like, yeah, I want to go paragliding, but it'd be a lot more fun with my oldest son. I'd love to wrap the Colorado river, but why don't I do that with my. My youngest son and I. I'd love to see the top of the Eiffel Tower, but you know what's better than that? Kissing my wife on top of the Eiffel Tower. There you go. That's what's.

Now you're talking.

So that's. That's kind of. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

Man, I love it. We love adventure, too. Like, that we put a high value on adventure in our family. And Dave, you know, Dave and I both have taken our boys separately on different adventures, and we've had lots of adventures. So I totally. We are in the same vein. Like, we. We totally believe that, too, 100%.

And just, like, the intentionality of that, of, like, setting goals, making plans, getting stuff on the calendar. And that's. That's a real theme that I've seen in your teachings and your writing, just in your. In your life, like, just being intentional. And that's one of the things you've challenged me on just from a distance, as I've read your books and made me think about, well, what goals am I going for? And, like, what. What should I be working towards? And how can we kind of restructure our calendar and our schedule to make that more of a possibility? So, yeah, so, yeah, that's. That's good stuff.

Can I. Can I just throw out a really practical thought here?

Yes, please.

Because you're, you know, your. Your kids, they're a little bit younger than our kids. All three of our kids are in their 20s, so we're. We're just a couple of miles down. Down the road. But a wise mentor said, if you want to keep relationship with your adult kids, go on vacations to really nice places. Places, do fun stuff and pay for them, and it'll probably work out for you. And I'm. I'M being sort of. I'm having a little bit of fun with that. But I would say this. You got to be a student of your kids and figure out what they love, and. And it will be like glue in the relationship. So, you know, like, I.

My.

My oldest son loves to bike. And so I've done a bike century the last two years, biked 100 miles. And, you know, in my age, it's getting harder and harder, but, you know, to be in the saddle for six hours with your son doing what he loves, you know, that's. That's because I know it's not one of the five love languages, but biking, if there was a six love language, that would be his love language.

So I love that so much. No, we. We are taking that information.

No, that's gold. Relationship gold. Even marriage. Like, be a study of, like, a student of what your spouse loves, what makes them tick, and then join them in that. And. And for your kids, especially, like, as our kids are getting ready to launch, like, I'm. I'm taking note of that for sure, and I'm gonna be applying that for sure, but definitely. Well, we'd love to talk to you about your new book. You guys who are listening, if you haven't read any of. Any of Pastor Mark's books, you are missing out. I'm telling you what the. The library of content that he has created and continues to create is just a wealth of wisdom and practical insight. And the stories are incredible. I think that the old Dos Equis commercial, the World's Most Interesting man, is loosely based on Mark Batterson. Like, I think that even though the World's Most Interesting man was a fictional character, I feel like Mark Batterson should be able to sue for some kind of, like, copyright infringement. To say, wait a second.

Like, it's really mean.

I'm the world's most interesting man, so. But he's too humble to say that about himself. But guys, read his books. I'm sorry. And I'm so excited about the new book. The title is three words that all the time we're saying you need in your marriage, in your family, in your life, please. Sorry. Thanks. Oh, my God. So, Pastor Mark, tell us about the inspiration behind this book.

Yeah, and it's, you know, it's pretty fun because I think it's a marriage book. I think it's a parenting book. I think it's a workplace book. I think it's a spiritual book. Because if you're good at those three words, you are just good to Go. I'm not worried about you. If you're good at please, sorry and thanks. It's kind of fun, you guys, because I. I dedicate this book to my mom and dad. And like a lot of mom and dads, you know, they taught me to say please, sorry and thanks. But. But where I try to go with. With these three words is that there's an art and science to them, and I love the science side. Like, for example, and I. I don't know who does these studies, but studies have shown that if you talk negatively to plants, they will languish. If you talk positively to plants, they will flourish. Like, that's crazy. True of plants is true of people like our. Yeah, the power of life and death is in the tongue. That's. That is.

Man, that's. That's so true.

Yeah, it's. It's. And. And, you know, let's keep it real. All of us as parents have had that moment where we've heard our kids say something that we said that we wish we hadn't said. And it's so. It's so mortifying and humbling. But, you know, I would flip that as well and say that when. When we are really good as parents at please, sorry and thanks, and our kids begin to pick up not just on the language, but on the lifestyle, that's a powerful thing. I think it's one of the greatest gifts that we can give our kids. And so the simple premise of the book is that words create worlds. And this is. This is a biblical idea. But it's also interesting. It's a linguist idea. It's the constructive conception of language, that our words don't represent the world objectively. Our words create the world subjectively. So simply put, if you want to change your life, you have to change your words.

Right?

And please, sorry, and thanks are a good place to start.

It's so revolutionary, but also so simple. But it's like the simple things that I think we all struggle with the most, you know, because actually doing it. And, you know, one thing I was thinking about as you're talking about parents and children is. And I've heard this, and you may talk about this in your book, but that sometimes, like, what. What we say to our kids the most becomes their inner voice. Have you heard that before? Where it's like. And sometimes the inner critic, like, if we've been really critical with our kids, that becomes their own inner critic that they carry into adulthood. And I don't know who I heard that from. Maybe it was on A podcast or something. But it really resonated with me because it's exactly what you're talking about, that words create worlds. And really, as parents, like, we're creating kind of shaping the world for our children and how they see it, how they see themselves, how they see, you know, other people, authority, all the things. How they even see God, you know, and. And I think it's just so. There's so much weight with it. And I do think, you know, since this is a marriage podcast, just kind of turning it back to marriage, I think that, you know, specifically when it comes to how we say things to our spouse and even our kids watching, like, the familial influence that we have there, just. I don't. I think we underestimate that, you know, because, like, in the work we do with couples, so many times we, like, when they come and talk to us or they're emailing us about an issue, a lot of times they'll say things like, well, I shouldn't have to say that. He's a grown man. She's a grown woman. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you ever hear that as a pastor? I'm sure you do. And it's like, what would you say to somebody like that if they're like, well, you know, we've been married 25 years.

I shouldn't have to say.

Thank you. I shouldn't have to say. I mean, she knows that I'm thankful.

Yeah. You know, and that's just to clarify, that is a toxic mindset that when people have that.

Well, obviously. Yes. Yeah.

But sometimes, how do you get somebody to break out of that cycle of being negative or just entitled and instead to be grateful, especially to the people who matter the most in our own home. Right.

You know. Well, first of all, Ashley, I'm just sitting here taking notes because that is a powerful statement that what we say the most can become that inner voice. So thanks for sharing that. And I would, just for the record, you know, I do think that Scripture is our script cure that the way we rewrite narratives, the way that we talk to ourselves has to be overwritten by God's word. And so. But now you just have me thinking, so here's what I would say to those who would say, well, I already said it. Well, first of all, as a leader, I know that until I say something seven times, people haven't even heard it once. Yeah. So you. You gotta say it over and over again. But here's where I would push eight times. The psalmist says, Sing to the Lord a new song. So this idea that find new words, find new language to nuance the way that you love God. And I would say in a relationship. Yeah. Don't just keep saying a simple please, sorry and thanks. Find new ways of saying it.

Oh, that's so good.

Find a way. So, you know, we're already talking about some love languages. One of my love languages is Malnati's pizza. I'm from Chicago, I love and, you know, anybody who knows me knows if you want to say you love me, you get me some Melnati's. And I would actually flip it. Like, we didn't even give our kids Malnatis when they were really young because they weren't ready, they weren't past the age of accountability. So we would just like put in a cheap, thin crust, store bought pizza for our kids, but once they got old enough, we started giving them malnatis. And I'm being a little bit facetious, but when we have friends over and I give them Malnatis, that's the way I'm really saying that I love you. So I would push us to keep finding new language, new ways of. I love this about you. Now, how do we do that? How do we cultivate that? Well, one thought is Laura and I keep a gratitude journal. In fact, we begin our Sabbath by sharing the past week's gratitudes. And so. And what you have to do when you keep a gratitude journal, like, you can't just keep giving thanks for the same thing the same way every time. So find ways to nuance it and use language to just expand your ability to say please, sorry, and thanks. So that would be probably my challenge. Can I ask a question of you guys?

Sure, yeah, go for it.

Which one of these words is hardest for you? Probably, you know, I found that some people are just more natural at one or the other and some just. Like, that one's really hard. Just out of curiosity, is there, is there one that's maybe the easiest or the one that's the hardest?

You know, that's a great question because each of those three words require humility, but in completely different ways.

Right? They do. They do.

You know, please. You know, like, the sorry is the humility of admitting faults.

Right.

You know, the please is the humility of needing help.

Right.

And you know, the thanks. The humility of, like, gratitude. Yeah. Showing, showing, you know, that deep gratitude. And I don't know, what would you say?

Gosh, I will say this, like, I can speak for you, like, just as your Spouse. You're really. I mean, honestly, this is going to sound so cheesy, but, like, Dave is.

So.

Dave is. I mean, he is just a master wordsmith anyway. I mean, like, he really is. Like, he truly is a gift.

You can't say that in front of.

Mark Patterson because you've had people influence you, like Mars Patterson. So I see this as a total thing.

I say that's like a smart. I've just plagiarized someone like Mark Madison.

Well, no, I think it certainly influenced you, but, like, you really are. And you're very careful with your words. I will say, like, I don't know. Dave's good at all these. But, like, I would say as far as the two of us, I. I tend to want to. Like, I'm more intuitive and like. Like, if there's any tension or anything. And I'm very quick for, like, sorry. But on the flip side of that, I'm quick to be looking for. And I'm sorry. You know what I'm saying? Whereas I think for. For Dave sometimes, and we've seen this, generally speaking, and I. I don't want to make just overarching statements, but in general, there's, like, neuroscience behind this. You know, women are. We tend to just be more intuitive by nature and. And kind of sensitive to maybe some undercurrent things or whatever. And, like, for you, it takes you a little longer. I mean, you will. You're quick to say you're sorry once you realize it. But I think for me, I tend to just go there too fast. You know what I'm saying?

I think, like, part of why.

Maybe too much.

I think part of why, like, you. You default to that is because you grew up. Not.

That's how I was. Right.

You grew up in a culture where there was. And there was some. There was some brokenness and expectation on you to always be a peacemaker at the expense of sometimes having.

Even if you weren't wrong, even if.

You weren't wrong of kind of like having to take the blame for it.

So sometimes it's kind of what you're used to, you know what I'm saying? But for me, I don't like there to be any tension. Like, I am a very, like, oh, no, no, no. Like, And I can feel that kind of. In my body. You know, I feel it like, oh, I don't like this tension between us. And. And so if I feel like I've created something, I'm real quick with that. But I would say, like, for me personally, as Far as please. Thank you. And what was the other one?

I'm sorry.

Sorry. I don't know. I would say between please and thank you. What do you think? Maybe thank you? No, I say please a lot. I mean, I think a lot.

But I mean, you're.

I could probably say please.

You're just better than this is almost everybody. Because like she doesn't struggle with these things too.

I feel like I struggle like please. I probably could say thank you more with that. I probably could.

I think for everybody. It kind of, some of it, it's personality, but it's also like how you were raised. Like even, you know, Pastor Mark, I saw a great clip from you teaching just from a week or two ago about, like think about people's five year old selves and when you, you meet somebody and you've just met them, it's like starting on page 16016 of a book and you don't have the backstory and so you're making assumptions about what you see in that moment, but you don't know what led him to that moment. And I thought that was so insightful because how we were raised and the experiences we've had, it all kind of leads up to our default mode when it comes to communication. And I think we need to give each other a lot more grace because even somebody you're married to and you know, well, you don't really know like all that they were experiencing as a child, what it was like in their mind and their heart when they were experiencing certain things.

And, and there's no perfect family out there too. I just want to say that, like, there's all stuff and how we perceive things too, affects us so much. But no, I, I mean, that's a hard. I know we're, we're kind of going on and on about this, but it's a hard question. And so like, that's why I said, like, if you want to speak about me and we speak about you. But I, I know, like when it comes to our. I would like to ask our kids because I think they would totally be like, well, you need to say this more.

Yeah, that's where you get the honest answer.

Really? Really? That's. Your kids will tell you.

Oh my gosh, yes.

Which one? You know, I would just say Dave, we'll just, we'll pretend that, that Ashley isn't here for just a moment.

Okay. Okay.

You know, I have found that for a lot of guys, for a lot of guys, they're quick to say sorry, but they really have no idea what they're sorry for.

Well, because of that, when I was.

Talking, I think she wants me to say sorry, but I don't know why. So I'm just gonna say sorry.

Yeah, y. I, you know, all three of these are in art form. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, if you're married, you might as well get really good at sorry because you're going to be saying it a lot and you have to. You just have to get good at creative and kind ways of expressing sorry.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I just think it's. Well, thanks for letting me put you on the spot. By the time you get to the end of the book too, you'll have a better sense of I need to work on my please or I need to work on my thanks. But anyways. Well, fun.

I know we need to work. I'm just sitting here, I'm like, I am going to ask the kids about it because I know they will have an opinion. And I am a work in progress always. So, like, I, I know there's plenty to work on. I want to ask this Mark because I love how you're talking about how in marriage we have to get good at saying sorry. But we hear from so many people, and I'm sure you do too, that say, oh, yeah, my husband or my wife says sorry all the time, but they don't really mean it because the actions that follow, it's the same old thing. It's like they say they're sorry with their mouth, but they're not showing they're sorry. Or maybe when they say they're sorry, they're like, but blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm. Or I'm sorry. If you feel that way, like, kind of like a dismissive sorry, what do you say to that couple who's struggling with that?

Well, that's a hard one, because you do. You have to get a few wins under your belt. You know, in every marriage. Isn't it funny that there are little things that drive the other person kind of crazy? And. And they aren't the big things. They're the things you overlook when you get married and later on. And so some of this is just honestly an awareness of the way your spouse is wired. So be it enneagram or be it Myers Briggs or strengths finder. So, you know, my wife Laura is A. Is A1 on the enneagram, which means she tends to. Towards perfectionism.

Right.

And you know what that means? That means when I'm doing the dishes and putting them In a certain order in the dishwasher. Guess what? I'm probably doing it wrong because I'm not doing it. But. But we've learned to. You have to almost learn to laugh or ch.

Yes.

And. And then I'm the three kind of achiever performer. And then you know what happens? Then I'll just shoot straight. Like, I got going in too many different directions. This was many years ago, but at one point, Laura said, this isn't what I signed up for.

Yeah.

And so you know what I had to do? We had to set boundaries. So I only do seven overnight speaking trips a year these days because I was going too many different places. And at the end of the day, I want to be famous in my home. And it's hard to be famous in your home if you're never home, so. And for the record, you know, for me, I love pastoring. I love writing. Don't, you know, don't get me wrong. I love that stuff. But success is when those who know me best respect me most, and that's my wife and my kids. So at the end of the day, I feel like if they respect me and if I can live within enough integrity that at least I'm the same person in private as I am in public.

Right.

So good.

You know, that if I have their respect, then I can look in the mirror and feel pretty good about everything else.

That's such a good word. I mean, I feel like it's so clear, even if you're not in, like, vocational ministry or even paraministry, I feel like it's so important in any. Any kind of. With our work or our hobbies or whatever that we realize that we don't put those things ahead of our families. You know, our first love, we have God and then our spouse and our kids, and it's like keeping those priorities straight is so important. And I do think it's easy when we're maybe doing something that we feel like God has called us to put that on a pedestal and tell our family they have to wait. But you are such a great example in that. And, you know, we're receiving that, too, because we're constantly trying to make sure that everything's in the. In the right order, you know, biblically, and just being there for our kids. And like you said, being famous at home. I love that.

Thank you for that. Just that healthy example you're saying.

Yes, yes, very much.

Because that is. It's so easy to lose sight of what matters most. But if we lose sight of what matters most, then we're missing it. Success anywhere else at the expense of success at home isn't real success. And it's so wise. I want to honor your time. I know we're about out of time, so in just a minute as we close, we love to ask our guests to give, give one piece of marriage advice. It doesn't have to be like even your best marriage advice, but just one nugget, especially someone like you who's got so many years of healthy marriage under their belt. But while you're thinking of that, I just want to remind our listeners to check out this amazing new book from Mark Batterson and really his whole library. You will not find a book that he's written that is not worth your time to read. It is really just incredible. The, the, the consistent level of wisdom and practical insight in everything that he puts out. And it's in part because he himself reads so much. You know, like he's such, such an avid reader himself, which he talks about. And I mean the library behind you.

If you're watching on YouTube.

Impressive.

Like, you know, I've, I've got, I.

Think that's a library of your dreams.

I've got library envy.

He does have library envy. He does.

I'm just, I'm just looking at that, lusting after all those books. But follow Pastor Mark on social. He is a great follow just nearly every day it will be some amazing nugget of wisdom or a video clip from really insightful teaching. And if you're in the Washington, D.C. area, check out National Community Church. Just a thriving life giving church. So. All right, Mark, what do you got for us? What's one nugget of marriage advice as we prepare to land the plane here?

Yeah, I'm going to cheat and say two things real quick. Enjoy, enjoy the journey. You've got to enjoy every age and stage. By the way, did you know the word diaper spelled backwards is repaid?

I'm just, I didn't.

If you're in the diaper stage, that's your, that's your word. I would say that the, I would say that the blessings of God will complicate your life. So praise God for those positive complications called marriage and kids. Don't forget, at one point the Israelites were complaining about manna, which was a miracle. And we think, how could they do that? Well, marriage is a miracle.

It is.

And yet we sometimes complain. So let's enjoy the miracle. But here's the last thing. And this comes out of a counseling session. Laura and I have a counselor that both individually and as a couple we've met with many, many times over many, many years. She recently said something that just kind of rocked our world. It's this idea that you have to have non anxious curiosity towards others. And you know, that's hard because you can feel like you have your spouse all figured out or if you have children, you know, But I think I have two rules of life. Every person is my superior in some way and that I learn of them. And two, everyone's fighting a battle I know nothing about. So I want to have an extra measure of grace. And so I hope there's something somewhere in there that will be a blessing to all of those who are listening to the marriages and just grateful. What a joy, Dave and Ashley, to feel like we're now officially friends after a 30 minute conversation.

Man, we are.

It's been our honor for sure.

Yeah, it really has been. And so thank you. Thank you. It's just like I said before we even started recording, your ministry has impacted us just deeply and personally long before today. And so just to connect with you today and to be able to share this interview and thank you. It's been a privilege. And for all you guys who've been watching and listening, thanks for taking the time to take part of this and. And don't let the wisdom stop here because there's a whole lot more of it in the books that Pastor Mark has written and in the resources he has online. So check that out and keep fighting for your marriage every day. Keep making that investment every day. I promise. It's an investment that always pays off. God bless you guys. We'll see you next time.