Setting Healthy Boundaries with Matt & Lauren Chandler | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love.

Today, guys, I'm so excited about our guests. Matt and Lauren Chandler are two of the most prominent voices in global ministry. They've impacted us from a distance for a long time. We've really been impacted by their books and their teachings, but recently they've been in the headlines as they've walked through a really unique season in their marriage that was brought to light from Matt admitting to an online interaction with the woman that he said was crossing the line. It was not romantic, it was not sexual, but the frequency and familiarity of their back and forth interactions and joking was brought to light in a way that the church and he felt like, you know, this is out of bounds. And so they're going to walk through what boundaries look like in marriage, what they've looked like through this season and this kind of very public season of walking this event. And so they're so gracious to come and share this. You're gonna hear some great wisdom from the Chandlers. So let's dive in. Well, like I said in the intro today, guys, we are so excited about today's episode. And I know I say that every single time and I start losing credibility because I always say it and it is always true. But it's extra true today because we've got Matt and Lauren Chandler. And you know, one of the great things that I love about the work we get to do is God sometimes just just opens up cool doors of opportunity for us to connect with people who've impacted us from a distance for many years and who've blessed us with their ministry and leadership. And today's one of those days. And so, guys, welcome and thanks for being here. Yes.

Listen, we were, we're excited. We were kind of fans. So marriage podcast. We're in. So we were. And we do. We do know that since marriage is that picture of Christ and his church, the more we can help people understand it, lean into it, flourish in it, the more the world gets to see the beauty of the gospel. And so that's just another compelling reason to hop in this and have this conversation.

Yes.

Yeah. So, so good. And for more on that, check out the Chandler's book, Mingling of Souls. You guys are coming out of a very unique season where Matt, you'd stepped away from a while, for a while because of an online interaction that you said was non sexual, non romantic, but still inappropriate. And I'd love just in your own words, for you to talk about anything you want to talk about, related to kind of what you guys are learning through this season and that time of stepping away and kind of, you know, recalibrating and now coming back and being, you know, full force back, you know, back in the saddle, back in ministry again. But just, you know, just to hear from both of you what you've learned through that and what. What you're learning right now.

Yeah.

Do you want me to start or you want to? Yeah. Well, I think the thing that was, as far as it pertains to our marriage, is like, we both have felt like the last few years have been the best, most intimate, deepest times of our marriage. The gift from the season has really been that. Because usually in situations like this, I'm on the inside of those conversations. But the conversations at the church were about me. That kind of took me out of those rooms in the season, and what made that painful but good was that the way we do life here at the village is my closest friends. I mean, the longevity of the guys that have been with me. I think one of the reasons we're a healthy congregation is because if I look at Josh Patterson, he's been here for 18 years. If I look at Trevor Joy, he's been here for 13 years. If I look around, there's a longevity here, which means we have suffered deeply together, and we've also experienced great victories together. What made this unique for us as a married couple is it was a very painful event based on my foolishness. So it's not brain cancer. It's not ridiculous accusations from a secular news source supposedly writing from a Christian vantage point. It wasn't the usual nonsense. It was foolishness that I had. I'm the domino, and I'm out of the rooms. So my normal places of processing with those brothers, I didn't really have that. And so what that did, in a real unique way, was it put us together where it really became. It's Jesus and Lauren. And that's the spot. That's the space. So in what was a really humiliating season brought about by my own foolishness, I felt completely safe in my covenant with Lauren. I didn't feel like I had betrayed that covenant. She didn't feel like I had betrayed that covenant. Now, did she want to punch me in the face and did she use some choice language about what she liked to do to me? Yes, but not. But I felt safe there. And where these brothers that I've been walking with for over decades were having to Handle me in a way that they hated and I hated. The Lord drew us together in a unique and beautiful way. And the covenants held for 20 something years through thick and thin. And this. It feels to me like this served to bring us into another level of intimacy that we didn't know was there and we didn't think we were missing to begin with. And that's been the real gift in our marriage coming out of this. Anything.

Yeah. I mean, I would just echo everything that he shared. You know, there were really hard days that. But we were together, you know, and we were working it out together. And even now where Matt is back in the pulpit and he's kind of. He never stopped working. I mean, he was still meeting with people and in meetings and doing the other aspects of his job. But I am mourning a little bit of the loss of that season where it was the three of us.

We got to go to church again.

That and me. And. Yeah.

And then.

Yeah. And I've seen now the. You know, I was a pastor's wife at age 22. He became the lead pastor at the village church when he was 28. So it's like kind of like, you know, the frog and the boiling water. You don't realize the toll that.

Ministry.

Life takes on you until, you know, you were out of it for a second, and then we were still in it. But, like, in particular, preaching, which is his main gift, I mean, that you're exceptionally good at is what you're passionate about. You come alive. It's. It's a very primary gift. And so when he didn't have that, there was. There was extra time to, I don't know, have with one another or dream about the future, whatever. And so now that he's back in, having to prepare a message, you know, every week, and then reaching two services and not being in preaching shape, you know.

Little rusty.

Yeah. Spiritual toll on him that I just had gotten used to before, and then now I'm like, oh, yeah, this is a lot on him, and then ends up being a lot on me and the kids, too. And so I do have a little bit of grief that I'm having to mourn of him going back, but it's good. Like, it's more just counting the cost. It's like, okay, I know what the cost is. A little bit better than I did before.

Would you coach that in. I'm sorry. I'm going to interview Lauren.

Yes.

Would you coach that is time or vitality? What is it that's missing a little.

Bit of both, A little bit of both. And that's okay, you know, it's just. It's part. It's part of it. And I think too, I mean, we'll be at the village as long as the Lord has us in probably 20 more years. But it also gave me almost a sneak peek into what our ministry could possibly be like together. And maybe that will be at the village eventually, now that our kids are older, you know, but it felt more like we're doing this together rather than, okay, you do your thing at the church and I'm gonna do my thing at the church. You know, in this capacity. It felt more like, oh, this is what we're doing together.

Criticism has always been part of the price of influence, but now within the church, there are all these people acting like they have the spiritual gift of criticism. Like, you know, like that's an actual thing, and that they just feel like it's their job to go around correcting, and it really is toxic. And so I'm so glad you said you said all of that, because it has to start with the church. I think within the church world, you know, we've been so obsessed with failure porn, as it's been called, you know, where it's like we just try to. We sensationalize what's wrong with everything. Right? Yeah. And it's really done in a very unbiblical way and a destructive way. And before. Before we land the plan, I want to honor you guys time and not keep you too long. But one issue we talk about on the podcast a lot is boundaries, just boundaries in marriage, boundaries with the opposite sex. What do you feel like are some just healthy, healthy boundaries in terms of interactions with the opposite sex?

Well, I think, you know, you have to apply wisdom in regards to your own heart and life and not think too highly of yourself and what you're capable of or not capable of. And so I do think, like, having specific boundaries about how you're going to interact with the opposite sex are super important. We are not like, even how we operate at the village church. We're not a Billy Graham rule place. We have women on the exec team. We have dynamic women leaders and communicators here at the Village. Jen Wilkin and before, you know, you had Lori Wilbur here for a while. And I could go on and on, but there are certain boundaries. Like, I wouldn't go out like Lindsay Eningberg's two offices down from me, direct one of our directors in the operational ring, just a phenomenally gifted woman. I'M not gonna hop in Lindsay's car and the two of us go have lunch today together. We're just not gonna do that now. Mike, me and Andrea, my assistant, and Lindsay go have lunch together. Yeah, maybe very much so. But just Lindsay and I are gonna hop on, you know, on a trip together or. I mean, that's just nonsensical and even. But we're. But we are. Lindsay and I are good friends, but I wouldn't. But like a boundary would be. The only thing I'm ever gonna tell Lindsay about my marriage are the really good, beautiful things. If I'm struggling with Lauren. We're in a season. That's Josh Patterson. That's Brian Miller. That's. I don't. There's no. There's no weakness in Lauren that ever gets discussed with another woman. Ever. There's nothing she's doing that's bothering me. That ever gets discussed with another woman. There's no. What. I mean, I could just go on and on. It's just all Lauren is. Is all awesome to another woman. If another woman is talking to me in some setting. Lauren's like the greatest gift outside of salvation God's ever given me. There's no weakness in this woman. Maybe laundry maybe, but maybe not even. That's right. Yeah.

That's your second spiritual gift.

That's it. So that would be one. Because I'm not a. I just think I've got more. More problems with the Billy Graham rules than I think it actually solves. But maybe that's a whole nother discussion for another day. So we. We do have friends that are the opposite sex, but there's certainly boundaries within that framework. Like I said, I'm not. I'm not going anywhere with Lindsay where there's not a group of us going. I'm not consistently texting back and forth with Lindsay. That's not on a group text.

Yeah. So I think all the same boundaries. We both share the same boundaries. He just has more opportunities for relationships with other women just because of work where I don't much.

Well, talk about how do you like when you. I think about your bands or spaces like that.

Well, usually I am the only woman and it's a bunch of guys and they're usually younger than me and so that matter.

Some guys don't find you beautiful.

You know, there's just. I don't know, there's just a. Yeah. Same rules though. I don't talk about.

I just want to say there's no like 26 year old going Lauren Chandler's gross. They're younger. I was like, what does that mean?

One of my bands, a guy that played with me, I mean, I could be his mom. He's Audrey's age, anyway. But, yeah, I just. I make sure that I. I don't, you know, talk about things that would create some kind of bond or would kind of put me in this per. In this man against you or, you know, in between us. So, I mean, the same. The same boundaries, same rules. It's just I don't. I don't have to activate them as often as you do.

And I would. I think a key learning, for me in particular, is the platform of communication matters. And what I mean by that is, like, some of the trouble I got myself in and some other words I would use is frequency and familiarity had to do with frequency. And I was somewhat. I think the better way to say it would be I lacked awareness around frequency because I wasn't getting into Instagram to chat to anyone. I was getting into Instagram to post or to look at something, that poster or look at my feed, and I'd see a red bubble, and I would click on the red bubble and I'd interact, and then I would maybe put my phone down, and then, you know, an hour later, pick it back up, and then there'd be a bubble, and I'd interact with the bubble, and it hidden the frequency from me in a way that if it had been a text message, I think I'd have been like, ah, that was. We just pinged each other 10 times today over nothing. That. That's probably. That's probably not a good thing. And so I also think the medium matters, especially if it's a medium where you're distracted while you're interacting with it. And so, like, my thing now is on. I mean, there's just no Dming on Instagram other than maybe a sentence. There's no ongoing relationship on Instagram, even if it's completely platonic or there's. Because this one was completely platonic on both sides. And so. But it's just not wise. And so that's the. That. That's a new boundary.

Yeah.

Yeah. I love that I brought you all together because I know when these kind of things happen. And like you said, you know, Matt, like, not knowing how it was going to be handled, not being able to be in the room to decide necessarily everything that was handled. But I do want to say right out of the gate, I feel like from our perspective of just what's put out there publicly you all handled it with such grace. Because a lot of times, you know, we've been in ministry for a long time as well, and we've, you know, we've seen a lot of different things happen with pastors and it's not always handled so gracefully when the powers that be kind of decide what road you need to walk. And you guys just had such integrity and such grace. And I just, as a, as a person outside just looking in it, it just was awesome to see that. And I feel like that in and of itself is kingdom building. So I just want to say that just as a, like an outsider looking in, it gives us hope because a lot of times these things snowball and turn in to just, you know, a lot, a lot huge, you know, bigger issues that you're like, this wasn't even this issue. But I do want to say, I'm sure that, you know, here you are, you're both handling it. Like you said, it's the two of you and Jesus. I'm sure there were some voices, sorry to mean to hit you in the face. If you're watching. I'm just about like using my hands too much about to hit Dave in the face. But I'm sure that there were like some voices from the outside, you know, that weren't necessarily saying kind things and, and also people getting the story wrong and saying things that happened that didn't happen. And that can be so maddening. How did you all handle that? I mean, I know that had to be going on.

My primary way of handling it is not to read anything.

Yeah.

So I'm on. I mean, I think I've got half a million Twitter followers. I don't think I've got on Twitter in five, six, seven years. I'd be curious of when the last time I posted like that. That place is so toxic, so wicked, so. And Instagram's easy because I can delete you and block you and I'm like, quick and without mercy. Like, even if you maybe trying to be kind, but I'm in a bad spot, I might block you. So it's just not. I'm just not going to give somebody permission to come at me or ruin my day. One, the Lord hasn't given me them for accountability. Like, I mean, I obviously have accountability. I mean, I. And they're not a good old boys club. And they just were unbelievably courageous to step out and do this. Have so much respect for our elders here. And I'm a man under authority. And so I did hear Things because people will be well meaning and they'll try to text me, like friends, like good friends who after the blast radius has settled down, I'm gonna have a talk to where they'll just be like, hey, man, I can't believe Christianity today said this and this and this. And I'm like, well, I had no idea anybody said that until you texted me this. Yeah, that's my primary way is I'm just not. Here's where I can sleep. I know it's true. My wife knows what's true. A group of very godly men and women knows what's true. And I'm in happy submission to their authority. And I have just learned over the years that there is a group of people that do not know us and they love us. And no matter what we do, they love us. There could be a video leaked of me clubbing a baby seal and there'd be a big group of people that are, what did that baby seal do? That's Matt Chandler.

He can't.

But they don't know us. They don't know us and they don't. They certainly don't know what's best for us.

Right?

And then there's a group of people and it's a smaller group of people, and they've just already decided that we're the problem and they dislike us. And anything they can read into, anything we do that's negative and slanderous, they're gonna do. And they don't know us. And I'm not accountable to them. And I don't owe them into. I don't owe them explanations. We don't owe them time or energy or emotion. And then there's this new group of people that I think are indifferent to us, but it's really good for their business model if I do something shady or if Lauren and I fall apart or because it's going to get clicks to their pages, blogs, whatevers. And so what I'm trying to do for our own sanity, what we try to do is we feel like we're fully known people. Like, we don't have a lot of secrets. We walk in deep intimacy with good friends over a long period of time. We feel known and seen and I am confronted, and that might be too strong of a word. I am asked about my life frequently from those who are in proximity, and that's what's going to matter to me. So the praise of man, I need to limit my interaction with that. And the critique, or maybe the better word is criticism of man. I'M gonna limit my exposure to that because what I'm getting from those closest to us, what we get from those closest to us is an honest assessment of our integrity and of rightness. And I can live on that.

I think that's a really great insight, though, that there are certain. Certain mediums and also just certain situations where naturally people are gonna let their guard down. Moments of deep trauma, I think moments of great celebration.

Yeah.

You know, when you're kind of on the mountaintop and high fiving and how quickly, you know, that can lead to moments of bonding that could cross lines of intimacy that are completely unintentional. And I'm just thankful for the conversation today and for you guys being willing to have it because I feel like in a lot of ways, the courage and the transparency with which you two have navigated this and just been so out front with what you're learning through the whole thing, I think that it could help prevent a lot of people from crossing lines that could lead to adultery. Because I think that it's so often so many of the couples we counsel that end up in an affair, it starts out innocently. It starts out for that without any kind of sense of boundaries or frequency or any of those things. The next thing you know, you've developed a bond, and that bond goes from platonic to romantic. And, you know, thankfully, you know, this was. You guys were able to nip this in the bud long before it got there. But I think your courage and being willing to talk about it will maybe give other people the courage to have conversations about what are those places in my life where I've let a blind spot develop in my social media behavior, in my interactions with the opposite sex. And. And maybe that's going to be some of the important conversations that even come out of this episode, that by applying some of the wisdom you've learned today from the Chandlers, that it could safeguard your marriage and prevent potentially something tragic from happening down the road. So thank you guys so much for sharing it. Before we sign off, though, we're in. And every one of these interviews at the start of the year with allowing folks to share one nugget of marriage advice. It could be anything. Big, small, funny, serious. And so the folks that have been waiting this whole episode for this nugget of gold for the Chandlers, they fast forwarded. They skipped the whole conversation just to get to this point from each of you. So what do you got?

I honestly think, like, flourishing marriages are, like, they're just cultivated over time. And so to just keep leaning in. So we still. We. I mean, we go out. We still date once a week as best we can. We're not legalist. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But we still actively date one another. We want to play and have fun. Life's hard, so let's. Let's play around a little bit. And I know those are two consistent. What would you add?

Yeah, this is just kind of a little small thing, but just finding ways to show your spouse that you care. So Matt really cares about our. We do French press coffee every morning and he's the one that wakes up first. And so he does it. But it really fills his love tank if I get it ready for him the night before. So like the beans are in the grinder. The water. So finding that one thing now I don't do it all the time.

You're fine. You're fine.

Feel loved and seen and cared for and thought about. I know. I'll get the coffee ready for him for the morning. And it makes him so happy.

It does. And a free one. I'll give you a bonus. We didn't broach this subject, but it's okay to calendar sex.

Yes. Oh, yes, yes.

Sex. It's not. Doesn't take the pizzazz of it or the like. Get that thing on the counter. I mean, I. I was texting earlier today. What time does Reed get home from school?

Looking for a window.

Afternoon delight.

So.

It'D be the best thing on your calendar. I'm telling you, we've all got stuff on the calendar we don't look forward to, but you got a Little Star by 2pm on Tuesday. And you know what that means. Like, you're gonna look, right?

If you. If you got an assistant that sees your calendar or your kid does or something, just be like. Just start like check the garage or just have some codes or something.

Yes, codes.

There you go.

French press.

French press.

That's it. French press. 2pm That's a great time for French press. Anytime's right for French press.

Anyway, that would be ours.

I love it.

You guys are just awesome. Thank you all so much for taking the time. We know you're busy people and we just count it. Such a privilege to have this conversation with you.

So thank you guys so much and for everybody listening. Guys, listen. Do yourselves a favor and connect with the Chandlers. You can find them on. On social media. You can go to the Village church either online or in person. If you're in the Dallas Fort Worth area, check out their many books and resources. They are both just a wealth of wisdom, and we are honored to have connected with you guys today. So thanks again and God bless you both.

Y' all take care. We'll see you.