Setting Healthy Boundaries With Technology | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. Today we have got a super important conversation with a really remarkable lady who's actually going to tell you all about Christina Avalone. And it's helped us, she has encouraged us and I think, well, I don't want to give too much away, but just stick around. I want to share one review before we get going because this review refers back to our summer series that I would love for you to go back and listen to. If you haven't. This one was left July 1st by Nettie 102216 said blessed by the summer series. Five stars they say. So challenged and encouraged by this series, the reminders of the wisdom found in God's precious word is a great is great. Your podcast is so helpful in our marriage and it's giving us biblical advice and help. Please keep up the great content.

Love that.

I love it. Thank you. Thank you for that. And again this past summer, we summer of scripture, 66 days in a row, one short episode from each of the 66 books of the Bible. We created this to be something that could be evergreen. You could listen to it 20 years from now, and God's word's timeless and it's still going to be relevant. So if you have not, go back and listen. They started in June 2023 and they go through the summer. Check that out. I think those might be the most important episodes we've ever made because it just points back to the truth of God's word. But today's episode is something super special as well. Sweetie, tell who we've got.

So we are talking to Christina Avalone. She is a mother to two grown daughters. She is an author, a speaker, and an advocate when it comes to having a healthy relationship with technology. Yes.

Which we all need.

Yes, we all need it. We actually met her in person at one of our exomarriage conferences and she handed us her book called Thriving in a Digital World. She's also written some curriculum for parents and for schools. You guys, you're going to love this conversation. It's one of those that is going to lead you to more conversations. Even if you are just, you know, married, married with no kids, or if you're married with kids, you can learn so much. So let's dive into today's episode. Well, Christina, welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We've been so looking forward to our conversation with you.

Me too. I It has been a conversation especially getting to See you at the EXO conference. So I feel like I know you guys. Yeah. Yeah. So I. I love just having this opportunity. Thank you so much.

Well, we love your book. We have your book. I don't have it physically with me at the moment, but I love your book. And when I was going through it, when you gave it to me at the EXO conference, I just remember being like, yes, this is such a needed resource. I mean, not only for our audience, but for us.

Yeah, for us, it was one of those things. It's like, we need to talk to her to get some good guardrails in our own lives and in our own family. Because so much of what we do as adults is online in the ministry, and it can be used for good. But so easily we can lose sight of healthy boundaries. And then with our kids, my goodness, they're growing up in a world where it's everywhere. It's hard for them to even fathom life without a screen nearby. And it's happened so fast. The world has changed so fast that none of us have really had time to create healthy parameters because it just, all of a sudden, it was there and everywhere. And now it's like, how do we navigate it? But, Christina, you've got so many great, so many great insights, so many great stories and stats that are really sobering and important to talk about. I love the quiz in your book to kind of, how do you know if you're addicted? Which is also uncomfortable because none of us think we have a problem. Then you look at that and you're like, oh, my gosh, I need to go to a TA meeting, a Technology Anonymous meeting, and just stand up and say, I'm an addict. What do I do for help? But you also have so much hope and practical insight on, okay, how do we navigate. How do we navigate the situation? So we just want to take a step back and really let you share because your insights are so rich. A lot of people listening right now or watching right now, they're kind of like we are. They're caught up in using their phones and tech for everything, and their kids are doing the same thing. And we're all trying to figure out how to get a little more balance with that. So teach us. Teach us, Christina. Like, what do we do?

Excellent. I love that opportunity because it's fun. I just spoke at our local high school. I spoke to 14 ninth grade health classes.

Oh, wow.

And it was funny. My daughter. I know my daughter said to me, before I did it, mom, you're gonna be Exhausted, I thought, oh, I won't be tired. My voice was tired, my body was tired. I said to the school afterwards, I see in my future a nap. But I wrote in addition to my book Thriving in a Digital World. Last summer, a lot of people asked me, are you doing anything for schools? Nope. Do you think you'd write a unit study? Not me. Third time in one week, the ask. And it was by a student, which really touched my heart because he was one who didn't have a phone and all his friends did, and he felt left out. And he said, have you ever thought of writing anything for kids? And I said, I guess I am father. I got the message. I understand you want that written. Right. So all year I've worked on writing Navigating digital dangers. Because it is so important. As you said, Dave. Right, Navigating it. First and foremost, let me say I'm not a Luddite. I'm not against technology or technological advancement. I'm against the misuse and overuse. Against that. If I'm in a conversation with you and I look at my device, it's rude. I teach a class, parenting in a Digital World, and I had someone in my class say, that's what people do today. Doesn't make it less rude. Right?

Yes.

So what are we doing to take back those reins? So when my kids would come home from college, my one daughter would do the. Do you ever get that look up?

Yes. Yes.

Huh? Yeah. I learned to just stand there, Mom. I can do both. Not successfully. We can all do both. Not successfully. And I want people to hear, it's never condemnation. Because I had to learn. Right. I gave my daughter a phone. I gave both girls a phone. Happy birthday. Great. Mom's like, woohoo. Good job. Right? And then we had to backpedal because we had to take away the phones and we had to figure out, what are we doing? And so it's a point of realizing, first of all, one step at a time. Yes. Don't look at the elephant. Right. We don't want to look at, oh my gosh, what is happening. But we now know what we know. When phones came out in 2007, we didn't know how fast and furious they would come on us. But now we have the studies and we have to help families who don't necessarily realize. Giving a child a phone without boundaries. Giving a child a phone with. Without information behind it. And see, there was a ding on a phone. I don't know if you heard it. I meant to put it on airplane Mode because we always have them around. Right. We have to intentionally. You have to be intentional. And I think that's the problem today is you start out and then you fall. Okay. But get back up again. Don't beat yourself up. I think a lot of parents beat themselves up and they don't know what to do. Well, there's a lot of resources out there we didn't know. And one of the ones that really hurts my heart when I spoke at the local high school, the ninth graders, when I shared this statistic. It hurts that kids on average are on their devices over seven hours a day. On average, teenagers. If you're on your Device more than 5. 5. Just 5. You're 71% more likely to exhibit suicidal risk factors.

Oh, man.

Oh, that's terrifying.

That is.

Oh, man. Right. So. And this is not my. It's not my statistic. It's from Axis 2021. This statistic came out. So I like to give statistics because those are numbers. They're already seeing early onset dementia in kids today because the gray and the white matter in the brain is changing. And when I share with kids that there's no differential between a hit of cocaine and. And a device, we now know what it's doing to the brain, the dopamine. So what you're getting is. We know now you're getting a dopamine dump. So your body's like, crazy, you have so much dopamine. Well, your body says, I can't take this much dopamine. It goes into a dopamine deficiency state. So what happens there? You're anxious, you're lonely, you're suicidal, you're depressed. So what are you going to do?

Pick up the phone?

Yeah, you're gonna pick up the phone just like you would take another hit of the cocaine. Right? Right. And the kids looked at me and they said, how can you say a phone is the same thing as cocaine? I said, the brain doesn't know the differential. So when I share this, when I present. You mentioned the quiz. When I give the quiz, I gave it. I've created it for students navigating digital dangers. It's an online class not missed on me, but it's meant to be taught in schools. They get the quiz. So if a parent or a kid gets the quiz, a lot of times, if I'm allowed to do it, when I present, I bring out a mirror, I put powder on it, I then get out a credit card. I go to cut it, and I go to snort it. And people are like, is she really doing what I think she's doing? Yes, because it's a great visual to see at the end of the day, that is what's happening. And a dad came up to me when I presented at. Actually at my daughter's school. I presented to. To parents, and he came up, he said, I always knew it was digital cocaine. We inherently know it. We now have the information out there. So what are you going to do? One thing, because I don't want people to leave here like, oh, my gosh, this is awful. Okay, make one change. Maybe don't have phones at the dinner table. Yeah, just that one change. One a week maybe. If you. If you have phones in your bedrooms, take them out. They're now saying that if you have a phone in your bedroom, you have invited another person. If you both have, you have four people in your bedroom because you're saying good night to your phone and good morning to your phone, not to your spouse.

Right?

Now, I've had people come up against me with that saying, well, it turns on my fan. It's my sound machine. Okay, That's a boundary. Then use it for the tool. And then said good night to that. Don't allow yourself to sit and scroll on it. Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense. I know. I do think, because I get what you're saying, I think that the phones, like, I mean, we've had couples write us saying that the phone is the thing that is causing their marital troubles, you know, because they're both giving more attention to the phone and maybe even other people. I mean, we see people fall into affairs, really not looking for it. I mean, I'm of the belief most people aren't just looking for an affair. It's usually because we don't have proper boundaries in place. And a lot of times it's through the phone, you know, it's through connecting with these old flames. It's through just not setting boundaries, but, you know, back to kind of going to bed and waking up with the phone. I think that, like, using the do not disturb feature or there's different ways you can shut it down where you can still maybe use your fan, you know, app or whatever. Because I get that, like, we are in this digital world, but I think that we have to, as adults, really set that, you know, we have to set our own boundaries. But then as parents also, you know, our kids are looking to us. And there's been times, you know, a lot of what Dave and I do with the podcast and with our marriage ministry can be done through the phone. And there's been times our kids have been like, hey, you know, put the phone down. Like, I mean, I. We've held us accountable. Like, and I'm like, oh, my goodness. I am. I'm giving, like, my best attention to my phone right now. And I have these precious kids who I need to give my attention to. So I think it's just all about awareness. And I. You're doing such a great job of bringing that awareness.

And we've all been guilty, too, especially with younger kids, of using. Using a phone as a babysitter when we're, you know, trying to get something done. And it's like, here, look at this. And. And they're half more than happy to do it. But the next thing you know, you know, you've. You've. You can lose a child to. To an addiction that you have helped enable. And I'm talking to myself here because I, you know, I look at our two young who, if they had it their way, would be on an iPad all the time if they wanted 24 7. And so we have to kind of force some. Some boundaries and getting outside and doing other things.

Yeah. And it's the first thing to go. I know you were talking about how so many times as parents, we feel like, oh my gosh, it's so far gone. What do I do? And I mean, it's good leverage, like, if they're not doing their part as, you know, doing their chores or being respectful or whatever. But. But I think it goes even beyond that. And I, I love your image of just the cocaine image. I know with younger children, like, especially with older children, they know what, like, you know, teenagers know what you're referencing. But with younger children, I've tried to explain to my younger ones, like, listen, I'm not taking this away from you because I don't want you to have fun. It's because you change. Like, when you've had too much technology, I see a change in your behavior. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on talking to. When I say younger kids, I mean, like elementary school age, like, our kids don't, like in our house, they don't get phones, their own phone or anything until they're like a young teen. But they do get to use an iPad. And so they're not on. It's like they're not on it all the time, obviously, but they get certain times a day where they get to use an iPad. And so it's like the way they connect with their cousins. Right. They Connect with cousins in another state. And so I see the good in it, where it can be a connection point. But I think it's hard sometimes with the younger children. Obviously, as parents, we can just say no, and that's what we do all the time and give the parameters. But I think it'd be great to have some kind of image to help them understand, you know what I'm saying? Do you have any thoughts on that?

I do. So let me back up to why I'm going to go where I'm going. So last summer, I remember reading an article which prompted the unit study about how you have to teach the why because otherwise, to your point, if you just say no, no, no, they're going to find a way, right? The stricter the parent, the sneakier the kid. So that's why I wanted to teach the why day one in my unit about addiction and dopamine. If we don't teach the kids what's happening to their brain, when I shared with the kids that we don't know in 20, 30, 40 years, if you're already seeing early onset dementia, are you going to remember where you live? Are you going to know who your parents are? Are you going to know your name? We don't. I don't know that. Like cigarettes, they didn't know and we don't know. So a friend of mine, years ago, this was eye opening to me because my kids were past this. Her kids would be on YouTube kids, and she said they'd get off that and they were nasty. And so the premise of my book, which goes along with my unit study is you have to have boundaries. You have to have tools in place. And you want to still teach digital etiquette. And the etiquette of that is, well, you just caused a problem. So therefore we're going to have to set the boundary. So maybe there are technology contracts out there nowadays that, well, you know, this is what we're doing as a family. We want to treat each other with kindness, love and respect. And you just hit me. I had someone come into my class, the first class I had, when she would tell her son to get off his device, he would hit her. He was a gamer. But average games are meant to last 48 hours. So she had to learn, right? She had to put the tools in her toolbox. Eight weeks in my class, she realized, okay, I have to set the boundaries, tools in place to. And teach digital etiquette and have that conversation you're having, Ashley, that conversation with your kids about this is what we're going to do as a family. We're going to love one another, we're going to respect one another, we're going to care about each other. And I'm for you, not against you. Because the problem with kids today, they don't know. Especially as, you know, these kids. What I've read a statistic. One in five girls are sharing inappropriate pictures. One in ten boys are. I mean, it's awful, but they don't know if. Then someone asks for more pictures or money. Oh, oh. I don't have a safe person to go to. So if you start when they're younger, teaching the why, teaching what's happening to the brain, and eye doctors don't want you on longer than an hour teaching, chiropractors are saying, you know, the technic what's happening, God is going to hold me one day accountable for what I've taught you. And so therefore, if I see your behavior, your demeanor, your continence changed, I have to say, wait a minute. I have to put the brakes and say, this isn't the right time for you. Because we now know once you've opened that door to addiction, if they're not going to get it in technology, they're going to find somewhere else to fill that bucket of addiction that they've opened up.

Sure. And I mean, that's a very sobering but an important reality we need to understand as parents. Because, you know, I think that's why, again, I love your imagery, because I think as parents, we need to realize how much power these hold, you know, how much these little. These little devices. If you're watching, I'm holding up my cell phone, how much they hold, you know, not only with us as adults, but with kids and how addicting they really are. And I think that, you know, I think. I love how, Christina, you're giving us, like, you're giving us handles to say, like, okay, we can do this. Like, we can help chart a new course in our family and also not look at it as just the devil. You know, like, my kids tease me because I'm usually the one who's, you know, who sees that behavior. And then all of a sudden, I'm laying down the hammer and they're like, you say everything. Everything comes back to it being about technology. And I'm like, well, it usually is like you. Usually when you're acting out, it's because you've been on it too long or because, you know, whatever, it didn't have the game didn't go like you wanted or you know, and, and so I'm like, a lot of it does come down to that and that's why we can't let this rule us. Like we, you know, it's.

And when we do take it away, if they've been on it too long, they act like a little junkie that you're taking their drugs away. I mean it's. Which is scary. It's scary to think that they've gotten.

To that point and then it goes away even longer.

Cause you're like, you gotta detox, you.

Know, this is not good.

Yeah, you gotta detox. And so like we've been trying to send our two younger boys, you know, they each did a camp or Chandler. Our 11 year old has done two, two or three different camps this summer where they're not going to have no technology.

Yeah.

Boy Scout camp and church camp and just it's like get outside like kids used to do and have a childhood. But I think sometimes though, we just don't know. We don't know how to like help our kids see what they're missing.

Yeah.

By. By always being on. Because all the other kids are. It's not like go outside and play with the other kids because the other kids are on their phones somewhere too. And so, so it starts with our kids. But it's like, I don't know, I wish there was a way to kind of just collectively help. Within our own communities, kids play again in ways that didn't have to lean back on technology. Do you have any suggestions for that? Because I mean we try to cultivate that kind of stuff like here, go swimming, ride your bike, that sort of stuff. The stuff that I would have been thrilled to do as a kid. But their default just as a culture, it seems like they want to go back to the screens as soon as they can. Is there a way to help them kind of reset their own thinking?

I personally think it's a point of. Because it is tough today. My kids are past this. Right. So I think you have to get to the parents. And that's why I wrote the book first and that's why there's questions at the end of each chapter. What I recommend is parents come together when with your kids. Parents and do a small group because then you're all on the same page. That when the kids come to my house, no phones. But when they go to your house, no phones. Because if the third parent it's lapsy lazy. Whose house are they going to? Right, right. So there are so many options now. There's Something called log off kids have created. It's either an app or I think it's an app log off. And it's kids telling kids to log off. There's now wait until 8. And it's if you have 10 kids in the school district. Right. But what I recommend in. In for me is I have kids come to my class now. So it's not just for parents. Because when kids come and they. And that goes back to the why when kids come to the class. I had a girl come in with her parents with that, you know, those that look right. I don't want to be here. I have to be here. Week one, hated it. Week two, still wasn't really happy. But I will tell you the greatest gift. Week three, she came up to me and she said, Mrs. Avalone, thank you. I had no idea. So that's when I wrote my book. The publisher said, who you hoping to reach the world? Because everybody has. Right. One of these little phones. Right? Everybody. If you don't have a phone, you have an iPad or a Chromebook or something. And the pandemic exasperated. It was already happening. It didn't create it. It was already there.

Right.

So I recommend sharing to watch the movie the Social Dilemma. If you haven't seen it, you have to see it because those. There are a lot of people trying to fight what is going on. Those that created the likes and it was on Pinterest, they're trying to go to Congress, say we have to put limits on this. So what I would recommend is to parents, hey, let's come together. Have you noticed. Open the conversation. Have you noticed your kids, you know, their heart is sad or, you know, they're more on here than here. And I'm reading a study. Have you read this study or anytime. I educate parents on the statistic of 71% more likely to exhibit suicidal risk factors. Their continents change. Right. They're sad to hear that. So. So that's an eye opener. Okay. So you're in. Not in like, you know, in a bad way, but you've got. You got to grab them so they take back the reins too. Yes. You have to just recommend and just kind of pass along. My book. Isn't the end all be all. There's a lot of books out there. This is what God put on my heart to share. But it's a point of realizing we have to in order to have that next generation, we have to make changes. And it's something that I'm grateful to be on the podcast to share for your Listeners to be able to be on different ones around the country in order to say, wait a minute. I have noticed a difference. I do know their continence has changed. What can I do to help them? Take back the range One. Like I said, one step at a time. If you're at three hours a day or ten hours a day on your phone, how can I help you? Parents have to come alongside their kids. How can I help you make those changes you need to make? Because I think to your point. You said so many parents give advice. I get it. It's easy. It's a babysitter. But I always tell people, use me. I'm an empty nester. When I do presentations, I bring out marble and I do a marbles. 218 marbles. That's one marble for the first 18 years of your child's life. Then I do 11 to 18 and then I have a jar of empty marbles that has none. And I said, I so enjoyed raising my kids. But they're gone now. You're gonna blink. Mm. And they're gonna be gone. I was at the pool the other day and a dad, it was adult swim. And the dad, the little boy, dad, dad, dad, dad. And he's just on his phone scrolling. And it was by the self control of the holy spirit saying, don't do it, don't do it. He won't hear what you want to share. But I wanted to go up and say, my kids are 23 and 25. You're going to wish you had these moments back. Put down your phone and go bring your kid to the snack shack or, you know, go play shuffle bar board or do something with him. Once again, not condemnation. We all have those moments. But are you wasting your time scrolling? You know, that's what it looks like. Because I heard a story of a dad that was at a playground and he had to go pick something up on the ground. And he looked up and all he saw was everybody holding a device. He said, and that's what the kids are saying. They're seeing this. Not this looking out and enjoying and celebrating. And you waited so long to get married and then you have these kiddos that are a gift and you're here, not here.

It is.

It's man, a good reminder.

It's convicting and it should be.

It is.

Because you're so right. I mean, what. What are we missing by having our faces in a screen? And what are we teaching our kids by having our faces in a screen?

Yeah. I mean, instead of, you know, fomo, the fear of missing out on something on this little device. We should have a fear of missing out on the real moments that matter with our kids and with our spouse.

Amen.

And I think shifting that narrative is so important. And I just thank you, Christina, for the hard work you're doing to shift that narrative to help us as parents and as married people. Even if you don't have children, those of you listening who don't have kids, this still applies. I mean, get this under, like, get this under control now. And you're going to be so ahead of the game when you do have children, if God calls you to be parents one day. But I just want to thank you, Christina. I want, if you could just tell us how listeners can get more information, where they can get your book, how they can follow you and get more information about these important things.

Absolutely. Thank you for that opportunity. So I have created a website, avalone llc, where you can, can find my unit study. You can get my book. My book then goes through Westbow, who was my publisher. And it's free shipping because everybody wants to. I get it. We all want the free shipping. But I have a lot of resources on there. But it's an advantage. What was recommended to me from my daughter's school is the unit study shouldn't just be for schools. It should be for parents to grab it as well so families can do the unit study. If your home, homeschooler, you can do the unit study. And it's, it's online. It's five days. You can do it in five days, you can do it in five weeks, one a week, however you want to do it. But it's, I love the idea that there are resources now. You don't have to navigate this alone. Right. So the Navigating Digital Dangers is a resource for schools or families thriving in a digital world. But it's all under my last name, avalone llc.com Perfect.

Thank you so much for being on here. You're, you're just a gem and we just really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

We're going to have more conversations about this. Like, I'm going to go, I've read your book, but I'm going to go back to it and I'm, there's some things I'm going to be doing because summertime, you know, especially as we're recording, this is a time when parents especially feel this. So that's why there's more. And I think it's a great time to have this conversation. So thank you again for being on the Nicky Parish podcast. Yeah.

Keep up the great work you're doing.

Thank you so much for allowing me to be on.

Of course. And thank you guys for listening and watching. If you haven't already, get a copy of Christina's book, the studies, all of it. I mean, just go to AvalonLLC.com and just check out everything she's got because it is going to help you. And do us a favor and share this episode with somebody, because I promise you, there are so many people who need this message and would be encouraged by it. So put this out and let's use technology for good. Let's use it to share important resources. And so thank you guys for your partnership in that. And we will see you next time.