The Friendship Side of a Naked Marriage | The Naked Marriage Podcast | Dave & Ashley Willis

Hey friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We're so glad you stopped by today. We're Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we uncover God's design for lifelong love. And today we've got a great conversation for you.

That's right. And make sure, guys, before we talk about today's topic, make sure you get that free 31-day marriage devotional because it's free, which is our favorite. And it also will make a huge difference in your marriage. If you want that link, make sure you go to the show notes. But today's episode is all about one of our favorite subjects. and that is friendship in marriage and couple friends. So let's dive in.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

All right, sweetie, I love this subject, and that is friendship. And so in this episode, we're definitely going to talk about the importance of friendship within the context of having a naked— naked marriage. I almost said naked. See, this is my Kentucky roots.

Kentucky coming out.

I had to train myself to say naked.

Naked, like, well, the way that my grandma would say it, like naked is when you're just, you know, like getting out of the shower. Naked is when you're undressed to do something naughty.

Did she really tell you that?

Well, that was kind of like the context clues that I picked up. Like naked was naughty.

Like all my relatives still say naked.

Like naked.

When I say naked, my mom's like, you sound so silly. And I'm like, mom, this is literally how you said it. She mispronounces so many words with confidence.

Is.

Yes.

Like, is the sign "wef," "mira," for "wolf." "Wef." Yeah, there are a lot. But that's not what we're talking about today.

Anyway, we're talking about friendship within the naked marriage. So, we're gonna talk about friendship between a husband and wife and how important that is. But also, we wanna talk about the importance of having couple friends, which is one of our most favorite subjects to talk about, and everything in between that. And so, sweetie, let's start with, Friendship and marriage.

Well, you and your spouse should be best friends. Like, friendship and romance in marriage are like two wings on the same bird. If you want your marriage to soar, you have to have both. And for most couples, they're better at one than the other. And which means one wing is stronger than the other, which means you kind of fly in a circle a little bit. If you want to move forward and higher together, you have to get both of those to the same strength. The romance, the passion, the connection, the intimacy, all of that is one side. But then the other side is just the companionship, the fun, the connection, the friendship. And that's the part we're focusing on in this episode because it's an often overlooked and yet critically important part of marriage. And when you look at couples who've been married 50+ years and they're still holding hands and still laughing and still going strong, those are best friends. Those are two people who've grown stronger in their friendship through every season of marriage. And that's one aspect of your marriage that can and should grow stronger even as your bodies are changing, even as, you know, certain parts of you might be getting weaker. Naturally, your friendship should be getting stronger. And it's a gift to be married to your best friend. And if you've lost that connection, that friendship connection, I think you've got to start there. You know, everything else in the marriage, the, you know, the lack of whatever is missing, a lot of it can be rooted back to a lack of friendship. And so how do you build a friendship with your spouse? The same way you build a friendship with anybody. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes having fun together, being intentional about connecting. And so start with those things. And we're gonna give some ideas of what that can look like. And then like Ashley said, we're also gonna talk about the importance of the friends you surround yourself with as couples, because the couple friends that you have are also gonna make a big impact on the overall health of your marriage.

That's right. And so when it comes to friendship, I think that clearly you have to invest time in order to build your friendship with your spouse. And, you know, for some of you, maybe you started off as really good friends and what a great start to start as friends. Like I always love hearing that. And maybe it was kind of a shock to both of you that you ended up falling in love and eventually getting married, but you still, you know, wanna foster that friendship that is there. But for others of you, And for others of you, maybe it started off very much just romantic, and then you had to kind of build on the friendship. But whichever way kind of you came into the marriage, you can still continue building your friendship, okay? And that's gonna take being intentional about your time. As we've shared before on this podcast many times, we're huge fans of a date night or a day date, you know, just having that time together to have fun. But I also think it's important that we look at kind of our rhythms as a couple, like really pay attention to how you greet each other in the morning, You know, do you greet each other with a smile? Do you greet each other with a, how was your sleep? You know, and maybe a little hug, a little kiss. That kind of builds that connection and that friendship. And also look at kind of how you connect through the day. I know for Dave and I, one way is we kind of build our friendship is through humor. I mean, we both, we love to laugh, right?

Yeah, laughing together is bonding. It's intimate.

It's very intimate. And like we will, in this digital day and age, we will like send each other funny memes throughout the day. Like right now we have a Chiweenie named Chi Chi and we love her.

Which is half Chihuahua, half dachshund.

Yes.

She's got a little Chihuahua face and a long hot dog body.

And she's the cutest in person.

She looks like a cartoon.

She does.

She's very, very sweet. So there's some accounts we follow of dogs that kind of look like her doing funny things.

There's one called Pips the Chi. Okay. And Pips looks just like Chi Chi. And so, we like following Pips the Tee, and we'll send funny little memes about whatever Pips the Tee meme is for that day, and some other ones too. But we have so much fun with that. Or just The Office memes. Like, we love The Office. It's our favorite show of all time. And, you know, we bond through like little interests we have and senses of humor. It just kind of builds our friendship. You know, one thing we actually were just talking about this morning, we love planning like our next trip. Like, when's the next trip? And it could take all kinds of shapes. And so we have our 25th wedding anniversary this year, and right now we're talking about where we wanna go. And so we've been like sending texts back and forth and dreaming about that and just keeping that friendship in the fun it is to text back and forth about what we think it could look like and spending that time together and just really shaping that. It's just so much fun. So we look at like how we greet each other in the morning, how we kind of connect through the day. And I know for most of us, you know, you probably work in two different places. We actually do work in the house together, but I'm often counseling through the day, so you'll still text me even though we're in the same house.

But, um, which makes it awkward for me because I'm sleeping with a woman at work, and, um, I'm not sure what HR is going to have to say about it.

Or the HR too.

We are the—

that's right, we're the HR. Um, but we, uh, you know, so you look at morning, look at the daytime, but then look at how you greet each other at the end of your day. Do you notice each other? You know, a big part of friendship is caring about the other person and greeting them, right? And I think where a lot of couples kind of lose their way in this is just feeling like their spouse is old news. You forget about the friendship part of this. And at the end of the day, you barely even look their way. Like, you may not even say hello or how was your day or, you know, oh, good to see you or, You know what, come over here, sit by me. Let's like, you know, have a Diet Coke together and just talk about the day or whatever it is, right? Make sure that you greet each other at the end of your workday and then have a little time together every day just to build on that friendship. It's really important that we have those kind of rhythms in our day-to-day.

It really is. It's intentionality. You know, you're making an investment like with any, if you're investing into a retirement account, it's that consistent, giving a little bit consistently every week or every month, over time, the compounding interest adds just a ton of value. And relationships are that way. And we often say time is the currency of relationships. It means time is how we invest into the relationship and add value. And if you wanna build a friendship with your spouse, there's no substitute for time, like giving your time to each other and giving your focused time to each other, your undistracted time to each other, meaning, you might be sitting in the same room, but if you're both just scrolling on your phones, it's not as meaningful as if you're without distraction, looking at each other eye to eye and actually having a conversation. And in today's world, that's becoming the hard part is not just the time together, but battling the distractions. 'Cause we have digital distractions everywhere. And setting that aside to just be present in the moment with each other, is huge. And so we need to create more of those moments. We need to get things on the calendar. We need to go on walks together. For Ashley and I, one of the best things, one of the best habits we've done for our marriage is just consistently going on walks together. Because when you're walking, you're in motion, you're not looking at a phone, you're talking. For men in particular, there's neuroscience to back up that most men open up more when they're engaged in an activity and when they're side by side, as opposed to face to face. So going on a walk really gets me talking. Walking naturally. It gets us some exercise and some fresh air. It clears our heads and we feel good. We get the endorphins going, but we have some of our best talks when we're just out walking. You know, we talk about life, we laugh, we talk about logistics, like with the kids. We talk about content for the Naked Marriage podcast and for XO. Some of our best ideas come in those settings. And so go on walks with each other. I'm telling you, it's a great way to connect. It doesn't cost you a thing. And it's gonna be good for you in your health, and also it's gonna be good for your friendship with your spouse.

That's right. And just, you know, I talked about the planning of like little trips together, 'cause we have a wanderlust, we love travel. I mean, if there's anything, like over gifts, we like experiences, right? Oh, for sure. And so think about that. Like, what are some ways you can have fun together? Like maybe you wanna engage in something new together where you both are learning something new, like, I don't know, ballroom dance classes, or like an art class, or a cooking class, or, you know, joining, I don't know, a running group or something. Like there were years ago, you know, years ago, Dave, who's been a runner. I mean, you've actually run marathons, you know, and—

I don't anymore. I've kind of entered into my chips and salsa phase of life more than running. But yeah, I went through a phase for sure. It was a long phase. I still exercise, but it's like, just, you know, I'm thinking about my knees not giving out over time. So I walk, I put on a weighted vest and I'll walk a lot. I lift weights regularly.

How do you act at 82 years old?

I get on the elliptical machine. I try to do things that are a little bit easier on the joints, but still, you know, appropriate level of, I don't know, exercise.

You do a lot, like you lift very heavy weights.

No, I lift heavy weights for sure, but I don't do as, I just don't run anymore.

Right, well, but here, let me tell this story and then I'm gonna brag on you and your weightlifting. Okay, so with running, I am not a runner, okay? But Dave was going through this very long running phase. And you know, with our kids' schedules and with our work schedules and everything, we were, you know, we're trying to be intentional about finding time together. And so I just decided, well, Dave runs, maybe on some of these runs, I can join him, you know? Even though I know I don't run very fast and I pretty much hate it the whole time, I'm gonna try to do this. And so I did, I started running with you and I could do it for like 30 minutes, you know? Maybe like up to 2 miles or something. I even entered a 5K color run where they throw colored cornstarch on you with a friend, you know, I did it. But I really thought it was for about a year, I was like, I'm going to run with Dave. And it was sweet because I got to join in with you, even though I think you were going way slower just to be beside me. So, you know, you could be at my pace instead, 'cause I couldn't quite keep up with your pace. But it was sweet, you know, it was a nice way for me to enter into something you were doing a lot. Yeah, it was a really sweet gesture, but I didn't, I never pressured that.

I knew it wasn't really your thing, but you, friendship in marriage means entering into your spouse's world more often instead of just saying, well, this is just my thing and that's just her thing. Trying to find ways those can overlap. And we do that with a lot of things. Like she'll sit down sometimes and watch part of a sports game with me and ask me what's going on and be there, even though she has no interest in the outcome of the game. She is just engaged with me. I'll sit down and watch like a wedding dress show with her "Which is in my mind, I'm like, we're already married. You're never gonna pick out a wedding dress." I'm not really watching those as much anymore.

I think these days, like—

You went through a phase though. It was all about weddings.

Did go through a phase.

There's a show about brides having weddings and then like judging each other's weddings.

Well, that was really old. Like that was a rerun that I was watching.

I know, but you were—

Before weddings.

Yeah. And I'm thinking these brides would like go and just, and then just nitpick each other's weddings. And then one of them at the end would win and the others would act happy for her. And they were really just really mad about it.

And yeah, it was awkward.

Yeah, I watched a lot of that and trust me, I had no interest in it.

You didn't.

But it was fun to just share the time.

But then we have our shows that we both like. Like we always love like a mystery show that we'll watch. Like sometimes Harlan Coben, it's a hit or miss.

Yeah, we watch a lot of—

But we like mystery shows.

Shows and movies.

British shows.

We do, we watch a lot of British shows.

But yeah, we try to find things we like together and then try to enter into each other's interests. Like years ago, Dave would ask me to go to these like professional sporting events and I was like, I just have no interest. I have no interest. But then I decided, no, I'm going to try to see what all this is about. And we went and it was like magical. And now I've been to multiple with you. Yeah, you've gone to plays with me and you love it. Like, I mean, yeah, it was— it's been so fun. You loved Hamilton. You loved— I mean, it was—

I didn't realize I was artsy, but apparently you are very artsy. Apparently I am.

You are. But I said I would brag on his weightlifting prowess, and so I mean, you won't brag about this, but I will. So they had a men's event at our church maybe a couple years ago, and they did a weightlifting competition with all the men who attended this event. And Dave, okay, who is, you know, you're not the oldest guy in the room, but you're not the youngest guy. We had a lot of 20-somethings there. You almost won that thing. Like, you were what, first runner-up?

Yeah. Well, yeah, so they, they just kind of took some volunteers and I kind of got volunteered.

Throw in the guy who won.

The guy that won, Corey, is like, and he didn't win by a lot, I will say, but he's an actual personal trainer and buff and young and all those things. And old guy strength kind of hung in there.

No, let me tell you.

I did the middle-aged dudes proud. I get more positive feedback on that than any sermon I've ever done or anything. Guys are thrilled.

You seriously, they stopped me at church the next Sunday I had men stopping me saying, did Dave tell you about his win? Like they assumed you won it.

Oh yeah. Like people, they just, it's just hilarious. It's told that I won and I didn't win. I mean, but that's how the story gets told and it's just.

So weightlifting is your go-to. I mean, you do walk.

Well, it's more of like a health and stress relief thing.

Yeah.

It just kind of helps me to clear my head. But yeah, you gotta just support each other in what, 'Cause we rarely like the same kind of exercise other than walking. She does, she's done dance, she's done like aerobics, Pilates, all kinds of stuff. Like my body just doesn't even move that way. And so, but I'm like, yeah, go with your friends and it's been a time for you to connect with friends. So pivoting to other friends outside the marriage.

Yeah, 'cause we can't be each other's everything.

Yeah, and we're not saying—

That's ridiculous. That's like movie stuff that like—

Overlap where you can.

Just unrealistic expectations, right? It's right.

Cheer each other on. And those things, or, hey, you love doing that, find some good friends and do that together with them. And we've certainly done that. You know, when I was running, I would, you know, sometimes run with other guys. You would do your exercise stuff with other girls, and we'd have other guys and girls only activities, but we try to come together as much as we can. And we have always been intentional about trying to connect with other couples where it's not just her friends, his friends, but our friends. And we get with dinner with friends together. We'll, you know, go out and do different things. And we love that. You know, we love making those connections. And whether it's through our small group or whether it's through just getting with people to hang out, it's meaningful. And what we found is those friendships have been over the years, an enrichment to our own marriage.

And I will tell you, I feel like, I think in our busy life, like all of us, like we all have these busy lives, it gets hard. You know, it's hard to make time for that, to put it on the calendar, but it's still important. Like, you know, these couple friendships, which we get a lot of you writing us saying like, "Listen, that's what we want, but like, you know, how do you do that? Like, how can you find the time?" And really, again, it's just making the time. And I think joining a small group is an easy way to, you know, hit two things at once. Like you're building your faith, faith and being part of the faith community. But also, that's where you can meet some couple friends. I think lean into your— if for those of you who have kids, lean into your kids' activities where you might naturally see some couples who also have kids in those activities and befriend them. Like, um, kind of some of our newer friends are friends that we met through our son Chandler. He's our third son, his, um, scouting troop. And we went to an awesome concert with them, and they've become really sweet friends. And now we carpool, and they're just lovely.

Yeah, doing life. It's a lot of times it's doing things you were already gonna do.

Right.

And just being intentional about inviting someone else to go do it with you.

Exactly. Or being open to meeting people at those places.

Yeah, exactly. While I'm here, I might as well.

I might as well be friendly.

Yeah.

And meet these people. And you know, and I know the thing that you're thinking right now is, well, what if, you know, I like the wife, but my husband doesn't like the husband, or he likes the husband, but I don't really like the wife. You know, it's true. I know that happens sometimes.

It does. It certainly does. And in those situations, it's like, be friendly when you all get together, but don't try to force it where we've all gotta be couple friends. If like the wives really connect and the husbands don't, then well, you wives get together and every now and then, you know, we'll still suck it up and get together and force some conversation, but we're okay with, you know, you two being closer.

Exactly. Well, I'm gonna tell on myself a little bit. I'm not gonna name names, but there was, there's a couple, that we've known a long time. And Dave— I was gonna say Dad— Dave Willis, very close and has been close to the husband for like years. And you guys are really good friends. And we would occasionally get together as families or as couples, but I, I didn't— you know, our kids weren't exactly at the same phase. And, um, and the wife was lovely, but I just didn't get to know her that well. But through the years, we've been more intentional about getting with them. And then I had an opportunity to get with the wife and spend time with her, and I've realized I really like her, she's amazing. We've become really good friends.

You've become really close.

So I'm like, hey.

At first you thought, I don't know that we really click.

I thought we had stuff in common. And then now I'm like, what in the world was I thinking? Like, she's awesome. I mean, and so I just think sometimes it's a timing thing. It's a maybe you don't know them that well yet thing. And you know, the truth is some people are the kind of people that you get to know instantly and you have an instant bond with them. And others, it just takes a little more time. But you can still have a rich friendship out of both of those dynamics. But it takes just being willing to be a little bit in your, and like out of your comfort zone. I think we have to sometimes just come out of the comfort zone. But I'm so grateful for all the friends that God's brought in our lives. And some have been for a season and some have been, you know, for—

Yeah, for all of our— I'm thankful for all of them. And in different seasons of life, you know, we've moved away. You know, we've tried to keep in touch with people through social media and stuff. But in different seasons, you're going to maybe be closer to some people and then you'll move or life will change, circumstances will change. And if you— you still love those friends, but in this season, you're— you're just not together as much and that's okay. Well, for all in the Lord, we'll get to hang out in heaven forever. And that's when we'll really catch up.

That's right.

But friendship does take intentionality. It doesn't happen by accident. Friendship with your spouse takes intentionality and building friends with other couples, it takes intentionality. It takes inviting, it takes showing up to things even when you might in the moment not feel like it.

Which, can I just say, as an introvert, I never feel like it.

Yeah.

Like, I saw a meme about this.

Yeah, she's always like, I don't wanna come.

I'm just like, I wanna be home. And then everybody's like, that was the best time. Every time, yeah. I just love it.

And I just smile and nod and she's like complaining like, why are we, why did we schedule this? Why?

I just have my little moment.

And then I'm like, you go.

And then I'm like, I just feel like I'm flying 'cause this was the greatest time. You know, like, it's so silly. And I know every time I'm gonna say it, but you introverts get me, you know what I'm talking about. About. That's just how we feel. I don't know why, why it is that we're so resistant.

How God made you. We've all got like—

we want to be in our jammies at home. But it's like every time— and I love, I love people, like I'm such a people person. But, um, but it's something about having plans. Like, that's what people are like. If you're an introvert, your favorite thing in the world is canceled plans.

There's a t-shirt that says, "Sorry I'm late, I didn't want to come." And I was going to get you that I was like, that's so you. But then once you come, you're—

I love it. And I'm so glad to be there. I know.

You're the best.

I'm just very silly. But I had one of my dear friends, Amanda, I have known her for 20 years, you guys. She, neither one of us has confessed how introverted we really are until we had a recent wedding to go to for our other very close friend, Tandy. And now we can speak openly 'cause she confessed it to me. She's like, I didn't wanna come here. "and I wanna be there for my friend's daughter. I wanna come." And she goes, "And I didn't know if I wanted to have you come with me because I know we talk the whole time and I know that could be exhausting. Not you, it's just anybody." And I'm like, "Amanda, I feel exactly the same way." And she goes, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah, we didn't even have to talk if you don't want to." And then you know what we did? We talked the entire time. We had a blast at that wedding. We had a blast on the way out.

It just takes the pressure off.

It just takes it. And so she's so funny. She's like, "Hey, you wanted to walk, but we don't have to if you don't want to, if you don't want any plans." And I'm like, "Yeah." So it's freeing. You know, I'm glad that I can be honest about it. And you never—

Well, and that's one of the marks of real friendship. And you're like, what even— what to look for in a friend? The Bible makes it clear, like, honesty is a mark of real friendship. An honest answer is like a kiss of friendship, the Proverbs say. It's like intimate. It's refreshing. You gotta be honest, but you also have to speak the truth in love. Make sure your friends are encouraging. They're not like me, me.

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And even more so in marriage, right?

Even more so in marriage. Yeah. The depth of your honesty will determine the depth of your intimacy. And so don't let there be— and that's what the Naked Marriage is. It's a place where there's no secrecy, nothing hiding. It's vulnerability, it's openness, transparency. And that's what a real friendship looks like. It's certainly in marriage. It has to be the most The most honest, the most intimate. And so develop that kind of friendship with your spouse. And I'm so thankful to have that kind of friendship with you. You're the best friend. So we're going to pivot now and end the episode with my favorite part, the question and answer time. Thank you though, for those who sent in questions. As always, you can write a question that might end up on air. You can write us on Instagram @DaveAndAshleyWillis, or you can go to nakedmarriagepodcast.com. All right. Today's question: How can you encourage in a loving way your spouse to take more initiative in romance and sex? I'm a very romantic person and feel like I have the higher sex drive out of the two of us and tend to take the lead in those areas. I feel like I'm always the one planning dates, giving romantic surprises, initiating intimacy, and in general, "Looking for ways to draw closer together, even saying sorry after a fight, being the first one to apologize. I feel like he doesn't see how important it is for me to feel romanced, or maybe he just doesn't know how. I'm getting a little desperate." I appreciate the honesty and the vulnerability.

And really, she's coming from a very sweet place.

I just wanna connect. I want to be pursued by him. I don't wanna just always be chasing him. Be having to chase him down. I want—

when she's given him the benefit of the doubt by saying maybe he just doesn't know how, you know. And I mean, I would say start there. My first thought is get the Five Love Languages. Go online, you can even do like a free test on figuring out y'all's love languages, because I'm thinking you might have some different love languages just to start. If you don't know what a love language is, it's really how we primarily give and receive love. And usually we have different love languages. And Gary Chapman wrote an awesome book many years ago called "The Five Love Languages," where he explains what these are. And you can kind of see, you can read the whole book if you want to, to get the full understanding of it. But also there's some basic understanding online where you can take an assessment and have your husband do it. And that would be a great place to start and say like, "Hey, I think we might have some different love languages here. Like, here's how I really feel loved and pursued." And then tell him, "I love it when you," whatever that thing is. You know, like when you, I shared earlier a few episodes ago, I love it when Dave brings home flowers because I feel seen and cared for and thought about. He could care less about flowers, but he knows I like 'em. And you know, and I felt pursued, I feel pursued by that. And just think about some things that you can actually commend your husband on and start with that. And then, you know, have him speak, listen to what he has to say. And then you can kind of get to the point of saying, listen, I know that we have a little bit of different wiring when it comes to things like romance and sex, and I really want this to be a thriving part of our marriage. What would it look like if we maybe took turns planning a date night together so we can each take turns on this? And what would it be like if we actually maybe took turns initiating? Because I feel like I tend to be the one initiating. And, and maybe give them the benefit of the doubt and say like, Maybe I'm not giving you a chance, but you know, could you just tell me kind of more of what's going through your mind when it comes to this part of our marriage? And just kind of open up the conversation there, again, from a place of curiosity and not criticism. What would you say, honey?

Well, I would say all that is really, really good. And I like the benefit of the doubt of maybe he just doesn't know how. And so how you help him know how is the easiest way is to just go over the top by by thanking him for even the smallest gesture that's moving in the right direction. Like, thank you. Oh, I so appreciate you doing that. It makes me feel so close to you. And you do that because praised behavior is usually repeated behavior. And so when you give him that positive reinforcement of like, you know, oh, when you show affection, you know, I really, you know, I love that. And when you do this or that, and he wants to win, he wants to, I'm sure, shine in your eyes. I would say, yeah, I mean, as you're taking the lead in these areas, just like Ashley said, maybe talking about what it would look like to have him initiate more of that, give him the chance to plan those dates. We have a free ebook all about sex that has some conversation guides in it that might help. If you go to daveandashley.com, there's a free ebook there on the homepage. At xomarriage.com, we have all kinds of articles and videos related specifically to helping couples navigate conversations about sex. And many couples go through their own version of kind of whether it's a lopsided sex drive or just sort of different approaches toward intimacy. And we've got a lot of resources there to help you out, but keep believing the best in him, keep encouraging and showing gratitude for those things he is doing right. And yeah, keep looking for resources to help, including this podcast. And I hope that this podcast has been and will continue to be a help for you. So thank you so much for writing in and thanks to all of you for tuning into this episode. I hope it's been meaningful. So get out there and plan a date night, go on a walk together, do something intentionally to build your friendship with your spouse this week. I believe it'll make a world of difference to you.

That's right. Thanks again for joining us, and we'll see you next time on the Naked Marriage Podcast.