The Importance of Great Friends | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And, you guys, we have some of our dearest friends in studio with us today, and you are in for a real treat. We're gonna talk about all kinds of stuff, and we're gonna get real honest, and you're honestly gonna get, like, a little glimpse into just how we all have dinner together and are real with each other. Right, sweetie?

It's gonna be a lot of fun. So we've got. We also have a producer with his finger on the ed.

Like, I don't know about this at.

Any time, you might have to push it, but we're so honored to welcome our. As Ashley said, dear, dear friends, Brent and Stephanie Evans. We've known them for years, loved them for years. Our kids are friends. Brent is also the CEO here at XO Marriage and is leading so faithfully. And it's just an exciting time for the ministry. But we've gotten some messages recently about, hey, you guys, talk about couple friends. How do you do that? How do you build those kind of relationships? And what's the point? Is it wor the effort? And we just want to have the first time ever on this podcast a conversation specifically about couple friends with our couple friends with couple friends. So you guys are in for a treat. Let's dive in.

Well, you guys, I am so excited because we have some of our dearest friends in real life, or as you young people say, irl. And so we're going to talk to them. I know this is so cheesy, but I, you know, we always joke about being old, so we are so excited to have Brent and Stephanie Evans here.

Yay.

To talk about a subject that is near and dear to our hearts, and that is couple friends. Like, how to make couple friends, how to be couple friends, the importance of having couple friends and what it does for your marriage. And so we want to welcome you guys to the podcast.

Welcome.

I'm so excited.

I'm so excited. All day I've been singing to myself, Friends of friends forever.

Really open. I love it.

And we don't own the rights to that. I know.

And we do. We sway. We join hands, old youth group style.

Old youth group.

That's what we did back in the 90s, so. Yeah.

No, but this is so cool. We've been getting messages, though, from folks like, you know, how do we make couple friends and the importance of couple friends? And we've got the privilege of Getting to serve alongside Brent Stephanie. Brent's actually the CEO of XO Marriage, leading us in extraordinary ways. It's a great time for the ministry. New headquarters coming. Super exciting time. But then in addition to that, like, we're all great buddies. Like, we were just hanging out last night. It was just such a gift to get to do life with these guys. And so we just wanted to answer the question of, well, how do you make couple friends? Why is it important? But then also, I have a chance just to highlight some of our dearest friends. And so we're so glad you guys are here.

Your words are so kind. I appreciate it. Keep going.

You gave me the best birthday card the other day.

He's very excited about.

It was so funny because it was for Brit and it was from both of you, but Stephanie made a point to say, this is from Brinton. It was this, like, romantic card that said to the man I love. And it was like this romantic card. It was so my sense of humor. You get me, man.

That's right.

You get me.

The bromance continues.

I love it.

I love you, man.

I love you, man. I love that, man.

I was very confident, but I was very confident in my masculinity, also very confident in our love for one another. I know that I could deliver that card and it would be seen as what it was, as a true reflection of my love for you. And you turned 44 yesterday. It's true. Shout out to the Double 44 Club.

44. That's right. Next year on our company healthcare. I get a colonoscopy. I'm excited. Great about that.

I just turned 45. I'll let you know how it goes.

Yes.

The exciting thing, these are the things.

Friends talk about, guys, or at least.

Friends in your 40s. We're really aging ourselves in this one right out of the gate. No, I want to say, like, with Brent and Stephanie, we've known each other for years now, but probably one of my favorite things in our friendship, you know, that about you guys, is that I feel like we can all be very real with each other and we get each other's hearts and we can just speak the truth and not feel judged. And, you know, we are right now, as this is being recorded, we've got kids. They have three kids. We have four kids. But they're all very similar in age and just kind of owning some of the. The high moments, but also some of the hard moments. Like, I love that about you guys, and it's so refreshing. And I think that One of the tips I would give for people looking for couple friends.

It's.

You gotta find friends like that that you can be real with.

Yeah. And it's hard.

It is hard. It is.

Because you're vulnerable. At some point, you're opening up to friends. And I still remember one of the first times we had dinner with you guys. Y' all were in town for the conference and it was at Tylicious. That place has gone hill, by the way. It's not as great as it used to be, but Tylicious. And we were having dinner and I was just expressing about how frustrated I was with our kids and they're driving me crazy. And Dave gave an analogy and I've used it a billion times since then. He was like, yeah, it's like the ear flick. The first one's not gonna get you. But at some point, those kids. It's the 45th ear flick and it's.

Just the one that draws blood.

Oh, yeah. Made me feel so encouraged and so much better because I realized that there's other people out there that lose it sometimes with their kids. And I could be. I could feel y' all were my people after that point. I could feel appreciated and understood that I love my kids. But sometimes they driving me crazy. Yes.

So now we just go.

It is. It's the ear flake.

It is.

It carries on. So, okay, a story about the ear flake. You can edit this out if you need.

This is hilarious.

So we went to a friend's church for Father's Day.

There is no edit button on this episode, period.

It's so my.

Like, we've never been to this church. They don't know us at all.

They don't know us at all. So in the kids church, it was a Father's Day sheet. Tell us about your dad. And it was all these, oh, my dad likes this and that. What's something your dad says? A lot. And Chandler, our 10 year old. You guys, flick, flick, flick, exclamation point. But his handwriting is so bad that L and I went together and it made it look like a cuss word.

Like the F word.

Fff. Exclamation point. I was preaching there this day. Like I was preaching in a French church. And he brings me this sheet. Look what I made for you. And I'm like, you showed this to people? Like, I don't. I don't.

And then I said the words three times.

Yeah, I know, right? So, yeah, the flick, flick, flick thing we have.

I think I've kept that somewhere. Because it was just.

Yeah, it was. It was a low. It's one of the humbling moments in our parenting journey. And I looked at Ashley, and I'm like, this is why we get invited to marriage conference events and stuff, but we never get invited to parenting seminars. But coming back to the subject at hand. All right. Because we could just talk to you guys forever about anything, and it would be awesome. But since we're talking about couple friends, why don't you guys rewind the clock from before you knew us? And I know in many ways, you probably feel like your life didn't start until you met us, and that's okay. But I know that there was a time before we knew each other. The dark ages. I don't want to think about those times, but they were there. In those early years of your relationship, what did this aspect of marriage look like of finding community, finding friends that you could do life with? How your individual friends, how that looked compared to couple friends, just.

I'm sorry. At what point do we get naked? Are we supposed to take our clothes off?

The second half.

Isn't this a naked marriage?

No.

Stephanie's gonna be the one to start first. She's a. She's a much better communicator than I.

Am, so, no, I'm not. Well, I just think that we talked about it a little bit earlier, but, you know, there's just different seasons for friendships. We think that, you know, before you get married, you have a lot of either high school or college friends, and then, you know, if they're married or not married, it kind of can, you know, start to change the friendship. And then, of course, when you're newly married, you're looking for all your couple friends, you know, who you can do fun things with, and then, you know, into parenthood and all of that. So I. I think that there's just different seasons for friendships doesn't mean that, you know, they don't. They go away or, you know, I'm still best, you know, best friends with my high school friend, but we just don't talk that much anymore just because, you know, distance and, you know, things and in life just tend to separate you. But. Yeah, so I just. I think there's different seasons.

Yeah, they're totally. Yeah. Especially, like, I'm in my 40s now. We've been married for 25 years. You know, what we found is. And I. I went to college, but I went to, like, four different schools, and I was really kind of a. An oddball in those schools. I didn't join a fraternity. So I don't have, like, strong fraternity ties to a school. And when I met Stephanie, we were part of my dad's church in Amarillo, so we kind of knew them. But two years later, we moved to Dallas. Kind of got involved here with. With different groups in different circles. We were way to. We were late to the game and having kids. So it took us a while for us for having kids. So we were young, married, spending time with a lot of couples who were young married. And then as people started having babies and moving around in different parts of the metroplex, you lose sight of them. And then you have sort of your church friends, and then you kind of have your work friends, and then you have all these different kind of groups of friends.

Yeah.

And if I'm being honest, I was fake in my 20s and 30s with most of them. I wasn't who I really was. I was always trying to be a certain person in certain circles in order to impress people or in order to be, I guess, a little bit more likable in whatever situation I was in. And then I hit my 40s, and I was like, I don't care anymore. And I really is the most freeing thing that I've ever. I've ever felt.

I love who you are.

Yeah. It's about the time I met you guys, and I was just kind of going, you got the. You know what? If you. If you.

If.

If I'm who I am in front of people as I am behind the scenes, I want to be that way with my friends. And if that's going to keep us from being close, then I don't think we're compatible. I'm talking about deep friendships.

Yeah.

Where we can go out and have a meal and have honest conversations. And you're always going to have those. Those business circles that you run in where you kind of have to put on different hats, or church circles where you can't say the F word three times. Expect them to. Expect them to enjoy.

Invite you back that weekend.

So it's just different. But I would say we're kind of in a season where we really do. We enjoy spending time with couples who have similar interests as us, but just really honestly want to be open and honest and vulnerable with each other and have real conversations. The earthling thing was one of them. But there's been a hundred of those times where I can say something to Dave or to Ashley, and there's no judgments. There's zero judgments. It's really difficult just giving everyone some therapy out There it's really hard to find a husband and a wife who gets along with another husband and wife.

Yeah, it is very difficult.

You're right.

Because a lot of times behind the scenes there's one of the spouses that's like, I can't stand them or I can't be. They're frustrated with the dynamic or the.

Husbands click, but the wives don't.

The wives are click and it really only matters if the wives click.

Exactly.

This is true.

Yeah, it is. But even with the husbands, you know, there's only so much you can do together like going on trips or doing certain things before it gets to be an irritation that eventually pulls you apart or you drift apart. And so what we found over the years is taking advantage of the opportunities that you have with a couple friends and really not being scared to put yourself out on a limb and invite them to do something adventurous. Going on a trip or doing something that you might not have thought about doing together. But that's where you really learn about people is doing travel together and doing things like that.

It's a make or break.

It is.

And honestly, we found through the years you can be really, really close with some friends where you both do like the husband and wife, both get along with the husband and wife. But traveling, you may not be good travel buddies. Have you ever, have you found that experience?

Oh, sure.

And I don't know why that is, but it's just, it's the truth.

Because there's always the one person that dictates everything.

Yes, yes.

And they're like, we're eating here, we're waking up here. And then there's also, there's two different kinds of people. There are the go, go, go, go, go. And we're going to do everything we possibly can within a 12 hour period. And there's other people, like, I don't want to do anything.

Yeah, yeah.

We just want to wake up when we want to wake up.

We actually had a couple like it when we were newly married. They were our best friends. I mean like, we did everything together and we decided to take a trip with them. And we just learned that we were not good travel buddies because by that third day it was just, we just started making comments, just started coming out.

Right, right.

Irritants started coming out. And I remember we, I think all four of us got into a fight like on the way home. And you know him. Oh yeah, yeah.

No, it's, it's easy to do because that's, that, that's really it. Can it can propel you to the next level of friendship, or it can kind of cause you to take a step back. But I will tell you, like when you are in community with people and I'll give an example. Like our EXO Marriage conferences. I'm gonna give a plug to our EXO Marriage conferences which are coming up. We start the season next month. Yes, February. Come to XO Grapevine, which is in the Dallas Fort Worth area, EXO Houston the following weekend. These events are great. Every time we come to these events, we meet groups that come together and they'll wait in line and say, we came with our friends. This is something that we started doing. And not only can these experiences bond you closer to your spouse, but when you share experiences like that with a small group from church or with some friends that are like minded, that also want to grow in their faith, also want to grow in their marriage, that's when it, as the Bible says, is iron sharpening iron. You guys are really helping each other grow. And a trip like that, that has some structure to it because of our program, but then also freedom to be able to go out on the town and do whatever you like. It's a really good way to travel with somebody. So, like, if you're like, well, I don't know if I want to just take a vacation with, with these friends, maybe a step in that direction is like, let's go to the XO conference together. Let's, let's pick one of the dates coming in 2023. Let's get a group of friends together. Let's road trip down there. We're going to have time together just as a married couple, you know, and then also some time together with the other couples. Share what we're learning. And the people who do that, that come in groups, I think end up sometimes having the most fun because they're, they're not only able to share it with their spouse, but they're able to share the experience with friends as well.

Well, we got to meet a pretty big group. They said they'd been coming to EXO Colorado for several years and they'd grown each year. And we saw them, they happened to be staying in our hotel and they were in the lobby all just laughing together. They were so much fun. And it is, it's like you can see that. And I think there's something else too. Like you're gonna grow deeper in your friendships when you share your faith, you know, and that's something we all have in common too. But I think what even brings it even deeper than even sharing your faith is being on Miss. We were actually talking about that today. There's something about, you know, like our friendship with Brent and Stephanie. We have others here actually present in the room, like the Gomezes, which you guys are going to hear from eventually, and some of our other exo speakers, like Sean, Lynette Reed and many others. You know, whenever we get together, even if it's been like a couple months since we've actually been physically in the same room, I feel like we go right back to where we left off. And there's just something so refreshing because I think it's that we're all vulnerable and very honest. You know, we share our faith, but also we have this mission that we're all on together to strengthen marriages. Like, we all have that heart, and it's just so cool. And I feel like over the years, I've just seen that grow and grow. Haven't you, sweetie? It's been just a really neat experience.

Yeah.

Being on mission together, it's such a gift when you can do that with friends. I mean, it's absolutely such a gift. And so it's a gift being able to do this with you guys.

Well, to tag along on that, it's remarkable to me because when we go to our conferences, if I mention any of the couples who are speaking, we're all kind of in the same spirit with one another. I mean, it's like if I say Dan, Leanne, we all love Dan. He's a great friend. You know, Naru, whoever it is. Mark and Grace Driscoll and Lisa Young, Lewis and Kristin Ramon, all these people there. You talk about them and you're with them, and it's like they're family very much. And we go to these conferences. It feels really much like a family reunion with everyone coming together in the green room. I may be overselling it. That's the way I feel about it.

No, I totally feel the total same way.

Totally feel the same way.

When we celebrated, like, last night for your birthday, it was the Martindales and the Reeds and the Gomez's and us and you guys, and, you know, just. That's the people you're living life with. But you want to. It's not like you're forced to. It's like, I gotta get together with these guys this weekend. It's like looking forward to it. And you text each other other times. You're not just doing it for work, but you really actually like the people you're with. I think that's been really, really remarkable on the sexo journey is that there's a natural, organic thing happening with couples who are wanting to minister in marriages that have a certain spirit about them, that are actually enjoying doing that together. And it doesn't feel like competition. It feels like everyone kind of brings their own flavor to the mix. And it's really been fun to see. It's really been cool to see. I've enjoyed it, at least personally.

Yeah, we have too.

No, I love it. It's one of the things I look forward to. I mean, we love, you know, we really love everything about the EXO marriage conferences, but being back in that green room is really special. Getting to connect with everybody and just hear the stories, too, of people just like yourselves who are watching and listening to this and kind of what exo's done for you. And, you know, because all of us, too, I think one thing we talked about vulnerability. None of us act like we've got perfect marriages, because we don't. Because we'd be lying. Because, you know, none of us are perfect people. And so. But it's refreshing to be around people who are trying. We're all trying our best to have the best marriage we can, but also knowing that we're frail people and we're works and. And I think it's, you know, hopefully that's translated to the stage and the podcast all throughout the ExoMarriage podcast network as well. And so it's, you know, what you're hearing and what you're seeing is really who we really are, all of us, in real life. And so. But we're. I think one thing about Brit and Stephanie, I want to say that I also think is really important when it comes to couple friends is you guys. You guys challenge us to be better, and I hope we do the same for you. I mean, I think that really good friends raise each other up. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes, we don't judge each other, but we also. We do hold each other accountable, and we're there for each other. And I. I just feel like. I feel like that's the kind of friendship we have. And I think that. That that's the best kind of friendship. You know, it is like a little.

Bit referring back to your. The scripture you quoted about iron sharpen sharpens iron is because when you are around people that challenge you to be better, you automatically rise to that. You do, you know, when you. I remember one time we were in a part of a life group, and the leader kept telling us that she always surrounds herself with people that. Who talk positively and just everything they say is positive. She said, and you'll just notice that. You'll just start talking positive and you'll start to notice other people when they are negative. And I think that same is true with marriage. I mean, you might see something, you know, maybe the way Dave looks at you or does something with you, and it just kind of challenges, you know, you to. To step it up the same way. So it is like that, and it's. And it's not. That's what is. I do love about our friendship is it's not competitive like that. It's. It's really just a purity in the friendship that I love. Yeah, I think that's important, you know.

Oh, it's so good you want me. You make me want to be a better man. I just meant that that was my line.

He said he loves you, man.

I love you, man. You guys are such a gift. Before we go close, I want to. I want to. For the people that are listening, they're like, oh, it's great. You guys have great couple friends. That's great. Yeah, good for you. But like, but the folks who've written this, and they're like, I want that, you know, I want to be able to connect with. With a couple that helps me be better and where I can be real and all those things, and they're like, I don't know. I don't know how, you know? And it can. It can feel intimidating. Almost. Almost like Ashley's described as the first day of middle school. Like, well, can I. Can I sit here and schooler and. Or. And putting yourself out there. And so just a few practical ways to be able to connect. And I think church is always a good place. You know, the small groups we've been a part of over the years have really been a place to connect. And I'll tell you this. Every small group we've ever been a part of has always started out really awkward. Everyone's awkward.

Everyone, you can tell everyone in that small group is thinking, would I ever hang out with these people if we weren't assigned to this small group?

Family's the same way. Like, sitting around Thanksgiving, like, would I hang out with any of these people if we weren't related? I don't know. But, you know, you. But over time, over time, doing life together and really getting to know each other, you can make some wonderful friends that way. And we've. We've made great friends through the years that way. I think Kids, your kids can be a great way to connect with parents. I know, even for. For us in the Evans family, like, you know, our kids connecting and having also that connection, being friends can help create more opportunities for us to get together, not only as couples, but as a family. And so a lot of our times, I think friends can come from just other parents. If there's a connection with the kids, then maybe it's more likely that parent connection can happen.

I think sometimes you have to cut out some friendships, too. I mean, there's some. Probably some relationships. If you're talking about people listening, going, yeah, that sounds great for them, but I don't have any friends. Well, you might have friends that are toxic. They might have friends that you shouldn't spend time with.

Definitely.

And I would find group, because that might be what's also keeping you from finding other groups of people that you would want to spend time with. So I would encourage anybody out there that's looking for friend groups. It sounds cheesy, but start with the church level. I mean, find a church, but find a church that's got people that you're going to connect with. Yes, because there are churches with different demographics. Older, younger, whatever season of your life you're in. We're at Fellowship now and Fellowship Church in Grapevine, Texas, and we have found that there is just so many people that are like us there that we can easily connect with. And so we've been able to really engage with them, and that's been good. But I've been to other churches where it doesn't feel that way. So church does matter. And then take a risk. I mean, at some point in time, I'm the kind of guy that wants to go, like, I'll share too much really quickly.

And it's like, that's a go there.

It's like that Seinfeld episode where he's like, good luck with all that. Sometimes that can be too much. So I've had to learn to be more like a guy around guys and just talk sports or whatever. And sometimes you have to adjust yourself in order to be likable. I've been talking to my son Luke, about he who wants to have friends must himself be friendly. You've got to be friends, and you got to learn that sometimes what you're doing is not palatable for other people. Sometimes it's annoying to them. So realize that and adjust it if you want people to like you. And I think that's a hard truth for a lot of people. Like, sometimes people just don't want to be around loud people, or sometimes you have to talk more, get outside of your comfort zone. If you want friends, you're going to have to do some of that stuff. And for us, it's been one of those seasons where we're open to meeting people. We're vulnerable. They're also quick to move on if we feel like there's relationships there that have red flags or dead ends. You only have so much time on this earth. Why spend it with people who make you miserable or make you feel bad about yourself? Find the people that make you feel encouraged, encourage you to do things better, whether it's your finances, whether it's your marriage, whatever it is. And I think that's the struggle for most people is they get stuck in a rut, Just almost like being stuck in a small town. They don't know how to get out of those friend circles that they're in. Sometimes you just kind of have to cut the cord and take a risk, take a leap. We found that some of the best relationships that we have now in the season is because we were willing to walk away from some relationships and move on and take some risks. I don't know if you agree with that or not.

No, I totally do. And I would just like to say, I mean, it hasn't always been where we've had just a ton of great friends, Even before you guys. I mean, there was a season that we were very lonely. We didn't have a couple friends, and it was very hard. We very much longed for it. And, you know, I would just encourage anybody out there that just to be vulnerable and to, you know, sometimes Brett and I both are a little bit like this. It's people that pursue us. You know, we just automatically are friends. So it takes us out of our comfort zone and we have to pursue somebody else. So, you know, I just say put your out there and just be willing to go up and introduce yourself, even if it's so uncomfortable. And there's so many times that it is. I mean, but just, you know, learning how to talk to people, you know, figuring out how to have small talk, you know, that's. That's such an art, you know, of how to ask people questions and carry on a conversation. You know, we've actually taught ourselves how to do that. You know, it's not something that just happens naturally. So, you know, you might just have to put yourself out there and learn some skills like you said to.

There's different levels of friends. I mean, there's some friends that are your close friends and those other friends that just go get a pizza with or whatever, and you're just having small talk conversations. It's okay. Not everybody has to be a level one friend.

Our best friend.

Yeah. I mean, seriously. I mean, there's times where you just kind of have groups of friends where you're just casual friends, but there's those friends, in your darkest moments, you can call them and they're there for you, and you can be like, I just screwed up. What do I do here? And you don't feel judged or anything. That's the friends that you want to come back to more often than the casual ones.

Being that kind of friend, invest in those kind of friendships. The Bible says there's a true friend sticks closer than a brother, and I want to be that kind of friend. And one other verse I'll throw out there because we've talked a lot about kind of character in First Corinthians, I think it is. It says, don't be misled. Bad company corrupts good character. And so when you're choosing friends, don't base it on charisma. Base it on character, for sure. Because character is what is at the heart of every good friendship. And then be people of character ourselves. You know, if we want to be a good friend, we have to be people of character. And so I'm so thankful that God has allowed us to have friends that have helped make us better. And you guys are some of those level one friends, to use Prince term. I like that. Level one. Level one. One one plus.

Yes.

Like, one with extra now. But you guys are such a gift. Love you both. Love your family. Thank you for. Thanks for being such good friends to us and you guys, too. We're excited about all that's to come. And for all of you guys listening, thanks for being part of this online community. We want to invite you to one of the EXO conferences like we talked about, and we're just a few months away from having the EXO marriage headquarters ready for you to come visit in the marriage capital of the world, South Lake, Texas.

That's right.

Oh, yeah.

This is the preeminent building in the world dedicated to marriage. Yes. I mean, it's dedicated to help people build a godly marriage. And, Brent, thank you for your vision and leadership in bringing this to reality, and it's going to help people for generations to come. And come visit. We want you to come visit. You can come see a recording. You can come experience it. Come to the coffee shop. There's a lot there to see.

And, yeah, it's gonna be fantastic.

It's gonna be amazing. Go to xobuilding.com yes if you want more details.

We love you guys. Thank you for being here and those of you listening and watching. We will see you next time on the Naked Marriage Podcast.