The MOST Important Advice for Young Couples ft. JJ & Kait Tomlin | The Naked Marriage Podcast

Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys are in for a real treat today. Dave is going to tell you about our very special guest that we have here.

Yes, JJ and Kate Tomlin are friends. They are a powerhouse couple in ministry. They lead the heart of dating podcast and the whole movement around that. They do conferences really help people intentionally be in dating relationships and work through that kind of whole single dating phase of marriage, of life in such a godly balanced, practical, fun way. And they're going to share their own journey. It's just such a cool story of how they came together and what they're learning now as newlyweds. No matter how long you've been married or if you're single, wherever you are in life, there's going to be so much in this conversation that encourages you. So let's dive in. Hey, friends. Like we said in the intro, we are super excited about today's episode because we've got our friends, JJ and Kate Tomlin. They are awesome. They are quite possibly the cutest couple in America. And they are newlyweds. They host the heart of dating podcast and the whole heart of dating movement, which is really just reaching people all over the place. We're going to talk some about that, about newlywed life, about dating, and just about all kinds of fun stuff. So you guys are in for a treat today. And welcome J.J. and Kate.

Yes, welcome, you guys.

We're so happy to be here. That was quite the intro.

I know.

Part of dating movement. The cutest couple. And the moment I was like, oh, gas me up for this interview.

Right? I can just play that on repeat every day.

I love it. Well, we like to, whenever we do interviews, we like to start out with you guys sharing how you met, like, what brought the two of you together. I'd love to hear that story.

I love this story, babe. Do you want to start it?

Yeah, I'll go ahead and start it. So it's basically, I have some friends who run a ministry for college girls called Delight Ministries for the girl based in Nashville. And this is in the middle of COVID And so they invite me to do a blind date kind of bachelor icebreaker date for their Galentine's conference, which.

Is just single girl event.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was literally me and a couple guys and like 500 girls. Girls on a zoom call. And I actually see Kate because she's the main speaker of the event. And so we Meet on the pre call. And I think, like I told you guys, she was like the most beautiful 5x8 pixel. And I was definitely intrigued. Meanwhile, she was so, you know, distracted.

I, truth be told, didn't really notice him because I was focused on my talk and my book was about to come out and I was like, I really don't really remember meeting him that first time. To be very honest and unlike Dave.

You know, like, when you look at me, I'm maybe not the guy who sticks out on the crowd, the most handsome guy.

So I can't take my eyes off of you, jj, maybe that's weird.

So I appreciate that, but Kate was locked in. And so I go on this five minute blind date. It goes great, great sister in Christ, really nice girl. But I was a little distracted. And so they invited the guys to stay on the call to watch if we just wanted. And so obviously I was pretty intrigued. So I turned off my camera, changed my name to like Katie or something. So I didn't, you know, stick out like a creep. And I watched Kate, you know, give a really amazing talk. It was pretty heavy. It was all self hatred, rejection, and then more. Yeah. And more importantly, right. The healing that she's experiencing. Christ. And I tell people all the time, if it was just based off looks and initial attraction, I probably would not have asked out Kate, even though she was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Just because, you know, it was just initially just physical attraction and. And that's typically not enough for me to ask to know the character.

Yes.

And the spiritual, you know, background of who I'm talking to. That's why I think it's so awesome to date people who, you know, people can vouch for. Like, I know them.

Yes.

You're not your time, you know, on a first date with them. And so with Kate, I watched and then I reached out to the organizers of the event who asked me, hey, your blind date, you want her number? I said, hey, great girl, great sister in Christ. But I'm a little bit more interested in the speaker. And they said, the, the dating coach. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, wow. And they're like, you know, she's five years older than you. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, and you're still like, you still want us to ask? I'm like, yeah, I do. And so they sent out the ask and at the time, I'll let you go ahead.

So then they send me a, you know, group text and they're and, you know, immediately I'm like, okay, wait. I. All I remember is that one of the guys on the call was 21, and I was at the time 31. Right now I'm 33. So I was like, I can't. There's no way I can date a 21 year old.

She's a cougar. But not that.

Too much for me. And so I was like, wait a second. Like, okay, how old is this guy and what's his Instagram? And so, you know, find out still. There's an age gap. Five and a half years younger. And I had never dated someone that young or that much younger than me. And then I went to his Instagram. I will say this, it was quite intriguing because at the time, these pictures no longer exist on his Instagram. But it was all over the place, you guys. Like, it was all different hairstyles of JJ Tomlin. Like, it was like big, bushy beard. There was. Then there was one where it was just a mustache, bushy mustache, dyed jet black. Then there was one with him in cornrows. Then there was one with him with bright blonde, like, bleach blonde hair. And then the most current of the moment, he actually, at that moment we met, had blue hair, which is so insane. So he had blue hair. What I loved about that and what intrigued me to say yes and go on our first date was I could tell that he didn't care what people thought about him and that he was genuinely 100% himself. And I love that because in Instagram and social media, you know, there's so many people just portraying what they think is cool and trendy. And I. It was very clear to me that J.J. was like, I don't care what's cool and trendy. This is me, you know, and I'm fun and I'm authentic to who I am. And so I said, sure, I'll go on a first date with him. So that's how we met. Long story.

Wow. And the rest is history. The rest is history. I love it.

You two are such. Such a great match. I mean, just. And I, you know, I.

When I.

When I first saw Ashley, I was so attracted that, you know, I didn't care about her character. I was just like, you know, whatever. I'm like, you know, I. We'll work with whatever, because she's just too cute.

No, no, you always. You always tell me you said my. My smile and you felt like it was genuine and.

No, no, totally the same thing.

You thought you saw Christ reflecting out of at least that's what he told me.

I did. I totally did. All joking aside, I totally get that, where there's that initial undeniable physical attraction, but then really, it's. It's the heart of someone that. That you're drawn to and. And, well, and that.

That is what sustained your relationship too, like you said. I mean, and you both, at the time you met, obviously, are both walking with Jesus. You have that in common. And, you know, just getting to know you guys, I totally see the match. It's. It's so sweet because we knew Kate before, before jj, you know, and. And it's just so cool to see you guys now. And I know those who just thrilled to see how happy you guys are and how you are serving the kingdom in such a powerful way together. And so we want to talk. You guys are the experts when it comes to dating and now early marriage. And we have not had a lot of. A lot of episodes on dating in particular, and this is a marriage podcast. But we really think it's important to talk about this, not only because we do have people who are single listening, whether they've never been married or they've been married and maybe divorced and really hope to remarry one day. And we want to talk to those folks, but we also have a lot of parents of grown children who are in. In kind of the dating world these days. And I know it's so different now. You know, We've been married 22 years. We have two teenage sons and two elementary schoolers, and our teenagers are just now kind of entering a little bit, dipping a toe in the dating world. So this is not our world. Like, it's your world that you have lived in and you minister in. And so I would love to ask you guys, what. What are you seeing, like, as the biggest kind of hurdles right now for people in this modern dating age?

Yeah, I'd love to start. Okay, so I think one of the biggest things that we see in general, you got to think about it like this. Dating has. Is a relatively new concept in our current, our cultural moment. I mean, it really has only been around for a little over 100 years, roughly. And before that, it was very different, you know, like, it was arranged marriages or marriages for political reasons or for different financial reasons. And so it was just. You didn't have really a choice in who you got to marry. And now we do. We had that choice. That's awesome. We're like, yay. But then it makes it all complicated because we're like, wait, I have to decide. There's so many elements to this. And so dating is relatively a new concept, and it's not technically a biblical thing. I'll say that again. It's not technically a biblical thing. Right. We don't see dating in the Bible. It did not exist at that time. We have principles for relationships and how to love people. Well, we don't really have any dating principles. So what we see, and I think one of the biggest things I like to make people aware of is that everybody has their own dating playbook out there. Okay. Because you got to think about it. I grew up in a certain area. The way I see and picture dating is based on my family. My family influences, my cultural upbringing, the community around me, the pastors that I've listened to or poured into, maybe even the rom coms I've watched or the Disney narratives I have in my brain. And so all of this together formulates this, like, playbook for how I'm going to go out into the dating world. And so I enter into dating and I'm like, this is how to date. Well, I got my little playbook here, but then I'm sitting across from somebody on a date, and they have a totally different playbook that they think also is completely right. Right. Because it's based on their cultural upbringing, their family influences, the pastors around them, the community around them, all these things. And, like, this is the way to date. Well, and we have all these different ways of dating. And so I'm sitting there on a date being like, oh, this the way he dates. No, that's not right. This is the way to date. And the guy's like, no, this is the way to date. So it's. There's so many. There's so much weirdness in the dating space because there isn't a set way or, like, healthy parameters out there, which is what we try to do through healthy date, through heart of dating, is to really provide healthy dating. So what I see oftentimes is, especially in the Christian world, we have all these weird ways, weird terms, like different things, like recording. Are we talking? Are we exclusive? What does all that even mean? And you have everybody. If I say, I, I'm dating someone, does that mean I went on one date with them? Does that mean I'm in a relationship with them? Does that mean, like, I have only been talking to them on an online dating app? Like, it does it, like, so complicated. Yeah, exactly. And that's what we see today. It's like, really, really complicated to date because everyone Has a different way of doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I'm a football guy, as you guys know, and you could just imagine if me and my 10 teammates on offense walked out and we had a different playbook for any cold play. It's just going to be chaos.

Yes. Yes.

Chaos. And so that combined with, you know what's so funny, guys, is that for the first time in US History, the adult population is now more single than it is married. So 51% of all the adults in the US are actually single. Now, what's crazy about that is if you stop and pause is we actually have more options and more avenues to date and meet people than ever before in human history. It has never been easier to meet someone from another state, another town, another place, another church.

Technology. Yeah.

Than today. And yet somehow the byproduct of that is that we're actually more single. So we actually think because of the chaos that's just been, you know, byproduct of the church not teaching. As you guys know. You were just on our podcast, and what parents frequently say is, if you don't teach about a subject, like, they're gonna learn from culture. And so, you know, if you're not, as parents, teaching about dating in a really awesome way that's super current, you know, and really, really wise, they're just gonna learn from the Netflix show that they're watching. Right? They're just going to learn from Love is Blind, which.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my goodness, I hope not. You know.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

So we just see tons of chaos, tons of confusion, tons of frustration with God and, you know, things not working on this timeline that they made. So that really is how we could summarize the dating world.

And there's so much more, but I think that's a good place to at least start the conversation about what's going on in the dating world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's a great start. So. And I know that this is so deep and so broad, and you guys give so much great advice, and I encourage everybody to check out your podcast and all of your resources. But what are just some of those kind of, like, step one nuggets of wisdom you're giving to people that. That are in the dating world or maybe even if, like, a parent's listening, and they've. They've got a young adult that they're trying to help coach through this themselves, or maybe someone who's newly single, you know, they've been in a relationship or even a marriage, and now they found themselves out there in that 51%. And they're like, I don't know where to start with all of this. Like, where do you tell people to start? Or what are some of those principles to kind of keep them on the right track in that very murky, confusing world they're in.

Like the ABCs of dating.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm going to talk about the stages of dating.

Yeah.

Okay. So the, the biggest thing is you're. There's usually two camps of people. There's the person who takes dating so ultra seriously. Okay? So it's like on the first date, is this person my wife? Yes or no? I have to know. I have to hear from God. I have to know after our first date, is this wife or husband material? It's like so, so, so serious. And if they see that potential, then it's like, immediately, will you be my girlfriend? Immediately, will you be my boyfriend? And then it's a very serious thing. The next week, they're walking into church hand in hand, and it's like this big deal. And now they're in a relationship and they're courting to marriage. Right? So you have that camp of people that takes it so, so, so seriously that then you have another camp of people that honestly doesn't take it very seriously and kind of has commitment issues. Right. Or dates a lot. And they're like, I don't really. I. I'm. I'm dating the wrong kind of people. I'm not really committing to anybody. And so you have those two sides of the spectrum. And where I see most Christians land is really that first camp, which is I take dating way, way, way too seriously. But I will say there's definitely a place for friendationships and just way too casual things. And what a friendationship is, is a friend that you like and it's a flirty friendship. And you're not defining anything. And, you know, you both kind of like each other, but you're not going to say anything. You're just going to keep texting and sharing your heart, and I'm not going to ask them out on a date. We're just going to. I just like this friendship as it is. It's kind of like I'm getting something from it, but there's no commitment. Right. So that happens over here and can't be. But so we have to know, which camp are you in? Do you take dating way too seriously? Are you so afraid of it that you don't even, like, want to do it at all? And so which camp do you lie in? And then we like to go into explaining dating as the stage. What are the stages of dating? Because I think this can help people clarify through the murky waters of what is healthy dating. So typically, we see dating from the stages of single dating, engaged, married. Okay. And so we all know what those stages mean, roughly, except for the stage of dating. We're like singleness. I get what that is, right? Engagement, we're moving towards marriage. That's pretty obvious. Married, I get it. I'm in a covenant, I had a wedding, all that. But the word dating, like we said earlier, that stage of this process of from singleness to marriage is so ambiguous and so large and grand that we love to insert actually a fifth stage in that process, which I actually think really helps to clarify dating. So we like to say it's single dating, relationship, engaged, married. And why this changes the game is that when you are dating, it's not a means to see if I'm getting engaged. When I'm dating in that dating phase, I am seeking to learn if I want to be in a relationship with this person. And then when I'm in a relationship, I'm seeking to learn if I want to be engaged to this person for marriage. Right. So it separates that process. So that dating is that stage before a committed relationship where you are trying to learn and get curious about another person. You're building friendship. You're not adding that physical intimacy in, but there is an intentionality of something kind of romantic. Right. You're going on a date. I'm intentionally trying to pursue to see if I want to be in a relationship with you. But I'm not trying to see if I'm going to marry you in that first date, second date, third date, I'm trying to see do I want to be in a relationship with you. And then in a relationship I'm seeing do I really want to get married to this person. And that, I think, in and of itself really helps us separate and take some pressure off of what dating is.

Yes.

Because when I'm dating, I'm just looking to see if I want to be in a relationship committed to dating this person. When I'm in a relationship, then I'm really seeing do I want to marry this person. There's different set of analysis, there's different questions. There's different, you know, layers of who you bring into the process in both of those different stages. And so we love to teach that because we think that alone helps clarify and helps to separate dating in a More clear way.

Yep.

So wow. I love that. And I've never really seen it that way.

It's so clear.

I mean even, even like I, I have, I can't help but have our teenage boys in mind. Yes. It helps me to give better language to it because you know, as parents too, and I know a lot of the people who listen to your podcast are adults who are, you know, they're not in high school or even college. Like they're, they're beyond that and actively searching, you know, to marry and things like that. But our boys right now, I still feel like this, this rule applies because I do think even, even with teenagers and those, those college age kids, they are college age young adults, I'll call them that. I think that there still is, they don't know which camp they're in and, and it's so much pressure if it's all marriage, you know what I'm saying? They feel like, oh my gosh. And then, but then to be so willy nilly about it and just kind of casual, they, they're like, well that doesn't feel right either. So to get these stages, it, I feel like it's just so level headed. So I really appreciate you guys giving us language for it and able to explain it because I do think there's steps to everything. Like we don't need to feel overwhelmed.

You know, it shouldn't, and there shouldn't be that enormous pressure. I mean the dating, the dating phase, pre relationship even. I mean it should be a fun and relatively carefree.

Yeah.

Time. There shouldn't be drama, there shouldn't be all of this. And I think people had so much pressure on themselves because they're giving themselves this artificial timeline or I don't, I mean I love how you guys simplify it and just say look here, just here's how it can look. So just, I mean maybe from an example from your own, your own relationship, when you guys, after you first connected, what did it look like for you to move from that dating to what you would call the relationship stage was, were there like kind of specific conversations you were having that like hey, let's, let's, let's be more intentional about the level of commitment. Like what did that sound like? What did that look like? If you wouldn't mind peeling back the curtain and letting people in a little.

Absolutely.

So I'll start and then I'll pass it to you. Yeah. So for me at that stage of my life, so I was definitely the girl that committed way too quickly in relationships And I noticed that. I noticed. And I had to do a lot of healing through Eileen anxious attachment style and attachment theory. And I lean anxious, and I lean to, like, been drawn, be drawn to, like, that deep connection. And I try to see the best in people. And so it would lead me to basically commit to people far too early on and then be heartbroken and get my heart broken or date the wrong kind of guys and some really abusive or toxic men. And so actually, the time I met jj, I was in a season of challenging myself to not be. To basically do 90 days of just dating, of just like, hey, I'm going to get to know you, jj, and I'm not going to get into a relationship with you until about 90 days. And that may seem like a long time, but for me, especially because we were long distance, it wasn't that big of a deal because, you know, we were. It was. It's all about pacing, and we love to teach about pacing and. And how there's healthy pacing and healthy wisdom to a relationship as you through time, share layers and vulnerability and, you know, get rid of the physical stuff. In the beginning. I'm not saying you can't necessarily hold hands or anything, but you just like kissing off the table. Those sorts of things just really start to connect through time and unfold those things naturally. So, you know, I had to tell jj, like, hey, I'm in this dating challenge season for myself, and this is why I'm doing that. This is what I know about myself, and I'm not going to commit to be in a relationship with you until after 90 days if we get there. And so that was.

That was after the first date, like, she didn't wait to tell me that she's dating a couple other guys or she's in the season.

I was just. I was really clear, like, hey, I'm just open in the season. That's not for everyone, but for me, I had to really pace myself. And so. And that's because I had gotten in really bad places in the past without pacing wisely. And so JJ and I leading into being in a relationship, you know, you had some great moments of taking it one day at a time. So why don't you tell them about that?

Well, the irony is that Kate talks about that what we say is infatuation. You know, that's the word we use to kind of describe that. Hyper, intentional, like, let's get married after the third date. Just like daydreaming, fantasizing, can't stop thinking about them. The reality is that Kate actually took a little bit of time to kind of warm and accept and like me and wanted to be in relationship with me. Like, it was definitely a process.

You know, he had blue hair. Is weird at first.

Like my black earrings and blue.

Black earrings, blue hair, five and a half years younger. I'm like, there's a lot going on.

Here's a lot going on.

So that part, you know, was hard for me to. No, I'm kidding. The irony is that she actually needed that 90 days to warm up to me.

Yes. Because if. If we had been on a. Okay, you came. Okay. So if we had been on a more rushed timeline, to be honest, like, I would have said no to him. I would have been like, if I had to make a decision about being in a relationship with you after 30 days, it'd probably be no, because my attraction to him physically wasn't quite there. I mean, I was. This is my own unhealth of like, really being hung up on the. The blue hair, the weird style and stuff that really, at the end of the day, doesn't matter. But I just needed more time to see his character and be. And he is attractive and I am physically attracted to him, but I just needed all of those pieces to come together. And it was more of like, what we call, like that slow burn versus, like that instant spark, which I feel like culture shows us, hey, you have to have this instant spark and connection. And that's the only way, like, if you don't have that, just throw it away. And I actually believe that sometimes is. It's way better in many ways to have a slow burn and a kind a fire that's kindling through time versus that, that starting with grand sparks.

And so I will say the caveat to that. And what I experienced was I was definitely like, there's this little war internally of infatuation versus ignition for Kate and for me, I really had to take it. I was so excited, so amped up. So just. Just jazzed to pursue her and date her and like, let her know, like, hey, I. I am into you. Like, I'm digging what you are putting out. I had. You know what my prayer was for that first 30 days for 60 days is, hey, we're going to take this one date at a time. And secondly, and more importantly than that is God's got this. Yes. Not me, not you. I don't have to lock you down. I don't have to, you know, compete against these other guys. If God has this for us, then God's got This, Right. I'm just surrender to that. And so from that point, you know, whether she was dating three guys or 10 or 100, I didn't care. Right. You know, she was. What was it, like two or three, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, I just didn't care because I just like, hey, my faith and my concern is if God's got this for us and if he has it, then I have nothing to prove here. And what I love about that and that 90 day period is, you know what I say to women and men is Godly character shines over time.

Yes.

In a short amount of time, anybody can bake to be anything. Words are just words. The Pharisees were the best at that. But that character, you can't, you know, mimic. And so that's what time gives you, gives you tons of data to show over time, character on both ends. And then for us, that is so funny you asked that question because Kate was so gracious with me, you know, as a dating coach, she knew everything, you know, and all these definitions. And I just had a good heart, you know, and that's like, I thought it was pretty clear, like, you know, the 90 days were up.

Yeah.

And I'm like, so we're in a relationship obviously, right. I'm like, we. I'm the only guy who's kind of.

He started calling me his girlfriend and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, we didn't have this conversation yet.

Yeah. She was like, this is actually a big decision, you know, in the sense of it's not just a natural following. It's. I actually am really intentional with the decision. I actually invite counsel in, I invite my mentor in. You know, my mentor is not me, but I just think it's wise to bring wiser people than me and to just double check, you know, and so.

Before we got into a relationship, like, officially, I will say this is important. And you know, I had to bring. And I always wanted to, to have this in my past dating experiences, but I wasn't always wise enough honestly to do this. And so I was like, before we get in that place, like, you're long distance, you haven't been able to meet some of my closest friends. So I'm going to, I need you to meet them at least over facetime and really get some time with them. And there was one conversation with my very best friend and her husband, who are also kind of mentor figures for us. And I didn't actually know how hard she was gonna hit him in this conversation. I thought, like, in the Past, she was super just like, kind of casual with the guys I had brought to her. And at this point, she had been fed up, okay, With a lot of guys who had broken my heart and made these promises. And so we get on this call, my best friend, and she goes all in. And her husband, meanwhile, is in the background. He's like my big brother. He's pacing the room. He's trying to intimidate J.J. like, trying.

To make it, like just in the background, walking back.

Oh, my God.

Like a prowling lion.

It is like a lion.

Exactly, exactly. Meanwhile, today, they're best friends. But the best part of that was like, you know, it just bringing that wife, making that final decision of if I want to be in a relationship. And this is why I think if you take some time to get into a relationship, like, obviously we're not. We weren't getting married yet, but I wanted people to really have eyes on, like, hey, 90 days you dated this guy.

Do you.

Is this something you want to commit your heart to, to then see if you want relationship? And I, we really believe in wise counsel and bringing wise counsel on the journey.

I love that. And then you listen too, and then you move into that relationship phase. Was that a little quicker than the dating phase or longer? Like, before engagement? How did that look?

So we dated for roughly three months before we got into an exclusive, committed, defined relationship with blessings from counsel and mentors. And then from there, we dated about nine months, roughly, because we got engaged right at the one year mark.

Oh, nice. Okay.

And yeah, and so what we say is that, you know, so funny what we tell couples is after about six months, you should have a very good idea of whether or not this is someone you can marry.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

Like, at that point, you should definitely see the red flags, the core flaws, the person that you could be marrying, which includes those things. And then you have really good data on what's the growth trajectory of their life. What are those indicators? Do they know what they struggle with? Do they know this core flow, Core flaws. And they're on a growth trajectory of addressing them over time.

Yeah. You're not going to date a perfect person, but we're looking perfect, right? Somebody who is like consistently growing in Christ.

Yes.

And another thing that was important to us before we got engaged, which we do recommend, is we did pre engagement counseling. And we. That honestly was so phenomenal for us. We did both pre engagement and premarital counseling.

Good for you.

Yeah.

Because we love pre engagement counseling. We are really big fans of that because it, you know, if you're going to be engaged, it's really hard to then say no after the engagement. Right. You said yes and then you're planning the wedding and there's so many elements, but you sometimes, in my opinion, want to have some of those harder conversations before engagement. And that was actually JJ's request. He wanted to do that and I was like, okay, let's do it. And so we did. Before we got engaged, JJ roughly knew he was going to propose, but we spent three months in pretty pre engagement counseling to really solidify like this is the right decision. And knowing when we're saying yes, we, we know what we're getting into when we're then committing to be engaged.

Because you know, from that point I, I don't have a amazing story that when I saw Kay on the zoom call, Holy spirit struck me and said, this is your wife, you know, but you know, really at that three month mark, like I had a really good sense that this is somebody I could probably end up marrying.

Sure.

And that long term perspective is really what sustained, you know, some really difficult challenges in dating that hey, pursue this woman like she could be your wife.

Sure.

And, but we just like, if there's one thing that the adults could teach their children or the singles listening to this or the divorced people who probably know from experiences, there oftentimes is no rush to get married. Like especially I don't care how long you've been a virgin. Right. Like there is no rush to get married. It is seriously a lifetime decision. There is somewhat of a gamble, like you're assuming a lot of risk and we just see that like infatuation and hyper intentionality just drive so much urgency.

Right.

When it's like it should not be anything but the opposite.

Like right.

There's done with wisdom, done with counsel. Not drawn out over four or five years.

Right.

But like just we see a lot of people like, hey, three months engaged. And we see stories that work, but we also see so many stories where it's like, wow, I wish I had spent more. You rarely hear people saying, man, I wish I engaged soon. I wish I proposed sooner or. But you do hear so many people. I wish I had just spent a little more time.

Yeah.

Getting to know them in a relationship before saying yes and getting married to them. I just wish I had seen some of these things a little bit more and analyze this a little bit more. So we talk forever, but we'll hand the ball back to you guys. No, this is so good.

This is gold. I mean, truly, I believe that the path that you two intentionally took, it's one of the wisest and most intentional paths from dating to marriage I've ever seen anyone take. And I think that it's a template and a roadmap that should be followed by people that want to set themselves up to win in marriage. I mean, it's just the intentionality, the patience, the prayer, all of it. I just think it is pure gold. And I hope that. I hope that listeners, you guys will take that to heart if you're single or, you know, to help influence the single people in your own life. Because, guys, that. That's a message that needs to be shared. And so, like that. We're coming to the end of our time. But before we wrap up, Ashley's going to say something. I just want to hear one piece of so you can think about this for a second. One bit of newly wed advice you would give now that you guys are actually married. One thing that you would each say, whether it's something you've learned or something that you would just advise people to do, because it's been great dating. Pre engagement, engagement advice, but just one nugget of, like, pre marriage wisdom. But, sweetie, you got something.

Yes.

Well, before we get into that, I know that before we started this conversation, we were like, what's one thing that you really want to talk about? And I think what you said was just so needed. I actually read a book recently called the Momentary Marriage. It's an older book by Piper. I don't know if you guys have read it, but it's interesting. He really hones in on what you guys were saying, but I want to let you guys talk about it more than me. But basically you were saying it's so important that we remember when we get married to not forget our single friends. And so I would love for you all to speak on that because we have not really talked about that on this podcast. But no matter what, no matter how long you're married, not just as newlyweds, but your whole marriage, really remembering the single people in our lives. Can you guys speak on that a little bit?

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, first off, anytime you find yourself in the same camp as John Piper without even knowing it, I think you're right. So that's a great.

Yeah, you're doing all right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, because we work in single ministry, this is obviously our life passion. But the one thing I would love newlyweds especially to know because they're often the ones who are just so and we love it. Enjoying newlywed life is, hey, like, you didn't graduate from your singleness. Like, you were not more mature. You, like, something magically didn't happen. And more importantly, like, you're not too good to hang out with the singles anymore. Yeah, right. Like, no, you want to. You're excited for married community group. Like, you've sat through years and years of sermons and teachings about marriage. Now you finally get the participate. Like, I know we put marriage on a pedestal in the church. It's just something we've always done. But, like, don't forget about the singles. Like, invite them into your life. Like, be curious about their story and where they are. Just because somebody else is single and they're single doesn't mean they're a perfect fit for each other. Right. For dinner, for Sabbath, for game night. Like, continue to invite them in and let them see, even from you guys, you know, what a godly, healthy marriage looks like.

Let them see that model.

Yeah. Because chances are they didn't maybe grow up with one. So.

And I would just add, because we were really talking to counsel, like, you know, it is so important in the dating process to have wise counsel. And we really recommend for people, we recommend, when we teach on it, like, different kind of categories of counsel to bring in. But one kind of counsel we recommend is like a king and queen couple. So basically just like a really amazing married couple that is really living out godliness, has a godly mission. And, you know, if that is you, you and your spouse, like, think about and pray about, like, can we be. Can we mentor a single person or be that counsel for a single person, like, intentionally? Because single people need that. They need somebody who's like, hey, I mean. And they. We encourage singles all the time to pursue it. Right. But as a married person, you also can make yourself available for that. Especially if there's somebody single in your life that you're like, man, they definitely need some help in some of their dating decisions. You really know them. Like, there's nothing more incredible than getting that kind of wise counsel from people who are married, who maybe made some mistakes, who have really strong discernment. Like, don't just keep that discernment for yourself. Like, help the singles out there, the 51% who are trying to figure out and navigate this healthily. I really, really say that's a priority.

Yeah, I love it. So well said. Such a great reminder. Because that really is just being the church, you know, we're just being the church, and we come from all different Walks of life and different situation, relational situations. And I. When I was reading about that and then you guys saying that was really challenged and reminded of that because, you know, kind of where we are, being 22 years married, we have friends who've been through divorces, and we don't want to forget our divorced friends, you know? And, I mean, I just recently was able to have a dear friend come stay with us. She's out of state, and she's tragically gone through a divorce. And just kind of hearing her story and having her at our table with our children and, like, us all being the church, because we can learn from her too, you know, we can all learn from each other. And I just feel like we do get kind of caught in our own little world, married world, you know, and it's important that we remember there's. There's a lot of single people out there who we all need to learn from each other. And I just love that. I love that you guys said that. All right, real quick, what's your marriage tip? I know Dave had kind of already teed you up for that for each of you.

Oh, my goodness. What do you think, babe? There's so many. I feel like we're, you know, we're still new to this, right? We're eight months in at this point.

Are we?

Eight months?

Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay, I will say this. This is feedback I got on my. The night before we got married at our rehearsal dinner. And I really have been trying to practice this, albeit not perfectly, but I would say one of my favorite things that I learned is from one of my best friends, she said, make a man feel like a winner, and he will be a winner. And what I mean by that is, you know, builds up your husband. I feel like it's so easy for women to really lean into. Like, hey, I have all these things in my mind. I'm doing all these things. I'm really type A, like, and putting. And kind of criticizing or kind of showing jj, like, how he's not maybe leveling up or he's not meeting my standards at versus really empowering him in the amazing things that he is doing, right? And. And really showing him, like, hey, you're doing an awesome job. No, he's not perfect at all the things. Neither am I. But, like, really, like, making him feel like when he does take out the trash or these little things, like, showing him. I appreciate it. Showing him. Wow. Thank you so much for doing that, you know, and I know, but, like, this is gonna sound so, so silly. But J.J. agrees with this. Like, it's kind of like. Like, we have two dogs. Okay. And when they do something awesome, we give them all the praise in the world.

Yeah.

They then want to do that thing again and again. They're like, oh, I'll do this again if I'm gonna get the praise or I'm gonna get the treats. And I'm not saying guys are like puppies, but kind of in a way, like, make sure that you really, you know, validate and make him feel like he is, like, the best guy in the world. I think that really, really deeply impacts your marriage is something I'm still working on, but I think about it almost every day.

Yeah, it's great. Like, you want to encourage your spouse into growing, or do you want to criticize them into changing?

Yes. Yes.

I love that.

That's a wonderful tip. I think, for the men, I would just, you know, I can't harp on this enough. Like, learning how in your heart and to develop empathy and extend your heart, life's feelings and emotions, to be able to say, like, hey, your feelings are valid.

Yes.

Real. And not only are they not a burden, like you've heard your whole life, but I embraced them, and I love them about you, and I really want to seek to validate them.

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. Instead of just going into main mode and stepping in with my logic and reasoning like, that makes no sense.

Why would you be anxious about that?

Right?

Anxious.

Oh, my goodness.

I know.

Not only is it not a burden and not too much, but it's something that I love about you and I, you know, I want to create safe space for you to be able to share and foster that deep empathy, you know, to extend my heart to yours. Because, you know, human. Not just women, but humans are so funny. You know, when someone is just talking to talk and not with you emotionally. Yeah. Like, it takes us a millisecond of deciphering, you know, so she knows when I say that statement, and I mean it with my heart and soul and when I'm giving her lip service.

Yeah.

That's so good. You guys are such a treasure. Gold, pure, golden. I love it, man. We could talk all day to you guys. Thank you all so much for sharing and. And, guys, all of you watching and listening, please go over and listen to the Heart of Dating podcast. You're going to hear more from these amazing people. We'll also, you know, go back to the show notes. We're talking about kind of their handles on Instagram. So much good stuff. Out there, and we just. We just love you guys and can't wait to actually meet you in person one day. We know it will happen one day.

I keep forgetting we haven't because we.

I know.

Hang out so much on Zoom, I forget that we have it, but I can't wait. I can't wait for that.

I know. I'm like, oh, my goodness. I can't wait.

I'll just see you in the metaverse.

That's right.

Yeah.

We love you guys. Thank you so much for having us.

Thanks, guys. Love you, too.

Thank you, guys.