The Secret to Great Sex | Dave and Ashley Willis

Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have a very fascinating interview today with Shaunti Feldhahn, one of our favorites, who's been on the podcast before, but also Dr. Mike, who is a sex therapist. And Dave's gonna actually tell you more about them.

Yes, two amazing, extraordinary, fascinating people. Dr. Michael Seitzma spent years as a pastor and was getting so many questions as a pastor about, and the church as a whole just wasn't doing a great job of answering those. And so he did the work to do the research, higher education, and actually got his PhD focusing on really sex issues. He's a sex therapist that's a Christian and comes from a biblical perspective with a lot of research. Brilliant man. Shanti has been a mentor of ours. She's a pioneer in the marriage ministry space. A brilliant researcher starting out in Harvard. Just to let you know how smart she is, the only thing I got from Harvard was a T shirt the one time I went to Boston.

That's true.

So brilliant, brilliant people. And they have created a fascinating, wonderful book we're going to be talking about on today's episode called Secrets of Sex and eight Surprises that Make all the Difference. You're going to love what they have to share and stick around to the very end, because the last thing we ask them is for each of them to share one nugget of wisdom that you can instantly apply to have a better sex life. And they both share some gold. So stick around to the end. Let's dive in. Well, friends, we have got an extra special episode today for you. And I know I say that pretty much every episode, but I really mean it this time because we've got not one, but two heavy hitters. Two of the most prominent and influential and brilliant voices in the space of marriage relationship research, and they've written a new book, Secrets of Sex and Marriage. Eight Surprises that Make all the Difference. It's our dear friend Shanti Feldhahn returning to the podcast and for the very first time. Time, we're honored to welcome Dr. Michael Seitzma, and together they've co authored this great resource. And we are honored to have you both here. So welcome.

Welcome.

Thank you.

It's a huge honor to be here. I appreciate it.

Oh, well, we are so excited. And as we kind of before we started this podcast recording, we talked about how this audience really does like to listen and talk to each other about sex. And so we Are so excited, like, because you guys like their resource. It comes at it from just a. Amazing. They both are from amazing backgrounds, but also, I love the research that was put into this book. And so just to give people an idea of kind of where your backgrounds are coming from. Ashanti, I know our audience is familiar with you, but I would love Dr. Seitzma, you know, to talk more about yours. So let's. Let's start with you, Dr. Seitzma. So you are a sex therapist, correct?

I am certified sex therapist.

I'm sorry, Go ahead. What'd you say?

Certified sex therapist?

Yes. What. What made you go into that? Like, I would love to hear a little bit of that story.

Well, I was pastoring, and people kept coming, asking Pastor Mike questions, and I kept coming home to my wife saying, you know, I know the answers are in scripture someplace. Nobody's taught me how to get them out. These people are hurting, and there's got to be answers out there. So kept going back and getting training, got trained in addictions counseling, got trained as a professional counselor, and then fell in love with doing Marri. And I had already worked with sex addicts since 1990, and so it was a easy shift into working with sexual issues that couples were coming in, eventually going out and getting my PhD specializing in marital sex therapy.

Yes. Such a. I mean, so needed. Yeah, so. So needed.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So thankful for the. The work that you're doing and resources like this you're creating. And Shanti, of course, you know, we've known you for a long time. You've. You've been a great friend and mentor to us in this space.

Incredible author, best selling author, social researcher. And so it's so cool that the two of you have come together to create this. I mean, it's such. Shanti. I remember you telling me about this project before. It was actually like, before you guys actually got together and you were so excited.

Well, here's the thing is that we all know, like, everybody here and everybody listening probably knows that this is one of the big issues in marriages. Like, this is one of those things that causes a lot of heartache. And, you know, some of the earlier research we had done, you know, we'd seen so much of this and recognized that so much of that heartache doesn't have to be there.

Right.

Like, there's some really simple things that can make a pretty big difference, and people are believing a lot of myths and, you know, just all over the map. And Jeff and I had done. We had. Our last research project was on helping marriages around money, which is another one of the big issues. And so we sort of felt like we were being nudged in this direction to sort of tackle both these hot button issues. I'm like, no, God, please, no. But. But just really felt like it was crucial. But Jeff and I, we knew we could do damage on this topic if we were not completely accurate. And Dr. Mike had actually been one of our longtime advisors, like all the way back to the beginning on this topic and a bunch of others. And he's too humble to tell you this, but he is one of the top national leaders in trying to help the Christian community especially navigate through this topic and bring a really healthy, evidence based approach to this. And everybody looks up to him as kind of one of the most, you know, one of those leading voices and thought leaders. And so honestly, I probably wouldn't have. Jeff and I wouldn't have been able to move forward with this book without Dr. Mike. So I was really glad you had a power team.

I mean, just bring years of research and academic rigor and life experience and all that you have that have kind of led up to this resource that you've created together. And you've put so much in. I mean, it's like a library's worth of content that you were able to condense in something that's so practical. And I'm like, how is there so much wisdom in so many practical applications in here? It's like a Mary Poppins bag where, you know, stuff keeps coming out and you're like, how does it all fit in there?

And that's how this book is. It's called three years of research and $120,000.

Yes, there you go.

Led to all of that and Shaunti's skill, because like I said in the book, it would have been a 3,000 page book to get that amount of information there for me.

Yes. Well, you guys have done a phenomenal job. And I'd love to dive right into why you think this resource is timely right now. Like, why? Because I do believe that, like, personally and you know, reading it, I know it is, but why do the two of you feel like this is a timely resource for married couples?

You want me to handle that, Shanti?

You go. Absolutely. You can start.

You know, we live in a society that is so sexualized, and historically there have been huge pockets that the church has done really good with. But as an overall, this is not a subject that's been discussed very openly, very accurately in an honoring, affirming kind of a way. And so we have people that are really struggling. They've bought a lot of the mythology that's in culture, that has even been taught in the church. But now people are hurting, and they're more open to talking about something that is accurate, that's truthful, that's very practical, and that's what we try to do, is put something together that encompasses all of that, really helps couples to wrestle with exactly where they're struggling.

I love that.

Well, and what I was going to add to that is there is so much attention to this in pockets of the church. And you know what Dr. Mike said about so much of the mythology. You know, one of the things that we identified is that now that people are starting to talk more about this topic, like you guys, right? Like your podcast, your voice, you're bringing more attention to this in the Christian community. And that's great. And it's starting a ball rolling like the ball has started rolling downhill. And the problem is, is that a lot of what's rolling there is a lot of misinformation that's just being more perpetuated because people are talking about it more. And all of those kind of misconceptions, some of the myths and misunderstandings, each one of those, it's easy to say, well, you know, that's just a misunderstanding, and not realize. Yeah, but that's thousands or hundreds of thousands of marriages that are hurting because they feel like this is something that they're supposed to be doing or living up to, or this is the way things work, and they're just trying harder and harder, and it's like the definition of insanity. Right. Like, you just do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. And so that's really the goal behind this, is to dig out what are those things that was what the research was trying to do. What are those little things that we're believing wrong? What are those little things that people don't know? What are those things that are being misconceived and correcting all of that eyes opened, and that little stuff can actually make a really big difference. So it's really a perfect moment while that ball is rolling, we're trying to catch it and roll it into the right track.

Yeah, I love that image.

Yeah. And you're exactly right. And I'm so thankful that. That you two are. Are doing that, because we need your wisdom and your voices on this, because there's so many people throwing out opinions right now. But you guys, the way that you temper, temper opinion with. With Fact with research, with biblical truth, and you weave it all together in such a meaningful way that people can grab a hold of It's. It's very profound. I'd like to know, just as two experts in this, you guys have been at this a long time with this new research, what stood out to you as surprising? Like, what. What surprise? Or are you still surprised anymore after all the research you've done? And if so, like, what was it about this particular research project that did surprise you?

Okay, can I. Can I take that one, please? Dr. Mike. So nothing surprised him.

Married with kids did, but we can talk about that.

Yes, There. There were a few data points here and there surprised him, but, like, none of the findings and everything surprised me and Jeff because we. We've been married now 28 years. Like, you wouldn't think anything in this area would be surprising, especially because we're also researchers and, you know, interviewed and surveyed thousands and thousands of people. Now, however, there. There were some things that were just, to me, mind blowing. Yeah. And one of the biggest. Do you mind if I just jump?

Please share.

Now. And this is. There are pieces of this that people have probably heard now because different folks have been trying to get the word out. But one of the things that is the most fundamental to many couples is instinctively in the back of our mind, without realizing it, we still have kind of the Hollywood idea of what sex is. Right. And so there's this subconscious, often belief that what you see on the screen where, you know, the guy and the girl look at each other and there's like this surge of desire, and pretty soon the clothes are off and they're in bed. And that we think is kind of just the way it should work. And so if it doesn't work that way, there's this subconscious feeling that, you know, my spouse is kind of broken.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Or me or whatever negative assumptions that we're broken. I married the wrong person.

It doesn't work. That. It doesn't work. Right. You know, or. Or if you're the person who doesn't fit that, then you feel like you're broken.

Right? Yes.

Right. I mean, like, it's. It. It can cause all sorts of emotional hardships, as you can imagine. And when we started working on this, and I. Because some of this I had known before and quantified in some of the other studies. But to recognize. Okay, wait a minute. What we see on the screen, that's one type of desire, and there's two primary types of desire. There are others, but like, those Two primary ones. And that kind of initiating desire that you like, you feel that surge of desire and you do something about it, but that there's this very legitimate other type called receptive desire. And what was a surprise to me is truly that the physiology of the person with receptive desire, it almost works in exactly the reverse order. And the feelings are felt, the pattern is felt in almost a reverse order, where instead of feeling that desire for your spouse, the person with receptive desire often just, you know, chooses to get engaged sexually. Right. Like, they just choose to start, you know, interacting with their spouse in that way, and then they start feeling aroused. And as long as that's positive, you know, they view that positively, then they start feeling the desire that maybe their spouse felt from the very beginning. And when I started talking to Dr. Mike about this and Jeff and I started, you know, diving into some of the research interviews, and I started literally sharing some of this with my girlfriends, like, just friends, because they'd be like, what are you finding?

Yeah, yeah.

And I was sharing this thing about you feel desire later, like, after you've already started to get engaged. And my friends were like, oh, my gosh. Like, that makes so much more sense of stuff.

Yes.

And stop feeling broken.

Yeah.

And you stop feeling that your spouse is broken. It's just, you know, it's just. It is not always, you know, the man or the woman who's initiating receptive. There's, you know, other patterns. But let me tell you, for me, with my friends, that I was starting out with this. It was life changing.

Yeah.

To realize.

Because if you're, like you said, you're basing it on this Hollywood myth that it's. It starts with this undeniable carnal feeling that you're always gonna have, and then the next thing, you know, to realize. No, it's. It's more of a process, and it's. It can be receptive to what your spouse is doing and just reframing it in our mind. That's. That's huge.

Yeah. That it's just as legitimate.

Yeah, of course.

Right?

It is. It is literally that God created two different physiologies. And there's a spectrum, you know, there's a continuum and, you know, whatever, but, like, wow, how freeing that is for somebody to not feel, you know, my spouse just doesn't want me. No, actually, your spouse just has. Feels desire in the reverse order. Then you do.

Wow.

We all want to be wanted. I think that's part of God's image within us. We want to Be desired. And there. There is a time in most relationships where both experience that kind of initiating desire. And we believe it's always going to be like this, that you desire me in that intense kind of way. I desire you. And when we shift into a different pattern or when the timing. We think it's. The timing gets a little different all of a sudden. Wait, you don't want me? And if we can step back and learn some of what Shanti was just talking about, our field can. The sex therapy field continues to wrestle with it and what's going on physiologically, and are there ways to shape and mold that? But we especially see women more receptive and older men, right around 50, 55, guys start going, wait, that describes me now. You know, never described me before. Now it does me. You're saying I'm still. Okay, we're saying, yeah, that you're still normal. And if you give yourself some permission to engage in. If you are intentional with this arena, this very precious arena of your married life and are intentional with it, the desire can still very much be there. It just looks slightly different.

Oh, can I share the numbers? This was fascinating. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that. When Mike sent me this number, I was like, whoa. Because. Okay, let me just tell you that one of our surveys was what's called a matched pair survey, where you're surveying anonymously and independently. The husband and wife are married to each other. And so you can compare husband 137 to wife 137 and see how they compare, which is all very fascinating, but it's hard to analyze. And so I needed a bigger brain than mine. So that was Dr. Mike. He sent me the chart of what percentage of married couples both have initiating desire. Like, both fit what we think is what sex is. Right. Everybody thinks that's 100% of couples. Take a guess what it is. Take a guess.

35%.

I'm gonna say 15.

10. 10. 90 of couples don't match. Yeah. What the Hollywood idea of you feel the desire and you go at it. Yeah, 90%.

Wow.

And how freeing that it is.

Very freeing. Yes.

Yeah. So that 90 has felt like they're. They're the oddballs, when really they're. They're the ones who are, quote, normal. I mean, 90%.

Yeah, that's right. You know, and I feel like. And correct me if I'm wrong, but we talk about on the Naked Marriage podcast a lot about how scheduling sex is not necessarily a bad thing, because you're being intentional about making sure that this Is the, you know, we're. We're going to make sure this many times it's going to be different for every couple that, that we make sure that we are regularly. However that looks for every couple having, you know, that we're going to have sex. And I think they. That so many get caught up on that initiate, you know, that initiating style that we see in the movies that, like, well, what about that? And I'm like, well, if you want to add to that and you're feeling it, go for it. But we're saying, you know, just making it a priority and making sure you're regularly engaging. That's really playing into what you're talking about here, where when you do engage, you know, it does bring you closer because that's what sex is meant to do. I mean, that's why God designed sex for married people. It's this beautiful way to engage with each other and grow closer. And so, and being receptive in that way, you know, in that terminology you've been using, I feel like that really shows that With. With. I mean, is that. Would you agree? Okay, 100%.

Yeah, very much so. That intentional piece is critical. The couples set a vision, and we talk about this in the book, set a vision for what did they want? What would they feel good about? What would they be proud of? And, you know, we showed that couples are not as far apart as what they think they are and what they want. And if they can agree on what that is and then intentionally start striving for it. And maybe the receptive desire does have to learn that, well, I'm not horribly in the mood, but if I choose to and engage and allow my brain to focus in and be mindful of the moment and of the touch and how much I love being with my spouse and being desired by my spouse, that my body starts to engage, and then I can be aware of my body engaging. And I. That's pretty cool. And somewhere right about in that point is when the receptive desire kicks in. And for some, it may be five to ten minutes into sex play. And if both people understand that's how it works and can be patient with it and wait for it to develop, then when it shows up, it can move on to be rich for both. Many couples just rush that early process. Let's just get it done and never give time for the receptive desire to settle into it, for their desire to even turn on. And I step back and listen to those stories and think, oh, how sad. We can do so much better for Both of you?

Yes, of course. Yeah, that's it. That is a game changer.

It is a game changer.

It is a game changer. And think about when you were talking about intentionality, like, scheduling ahead of time. You know, think about, like, about a third of couples in our stock survey. Both of them were receptive.

Right.

So they are just sitting around waiting.

Both waiting for the other.

When you get initiate. Yeah, I'm okay.

Are you okay? Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah.

So, you know, there's. That's. It's all part of that intentionality. Yes.

As a clinician, Ashley, I would say that's brilliant advice for couples to schedule. And sometimes they'll say, but what about the spontaneity? We can still be spontaneous within that time. What about the playfulness? Still be playful within that time. You know, we. We are intentional and carve out other things that are critical and important in our lives. This. This is an important one.

I love that, and I love how you guys are giving actual numbers to it, because, you know, like, we can say that, but when you can show actual numbers and you also have the clinical support behind it, it's just so much better. Because, I mean, as human beings, sometimes we, you know, we have to be told something over and over again and actually see the fruit of it. And, like, oh, this really does lead to better connection and all that. So I love how you all share that. I'd love to hear. Dr. Mike, you said that there was something with the parenting phase that surprised you. What was that?

The mom of young children.

Oh, yes, yes.

You know, we've been. And I talk about myths and misperceptions, but we do those in our field as well, because we continually learn. And one of the things that we have consistently kind of said is the more kids you have, the more difficult it is for couples to connect sexually, because there's just more going on in the home. And so when the numbers first started coming back, I didn't believe what I was seeing. What we saw is that those individuals that did not have kids had much greater sexless marriages, and there was a much higher number of them having sex far less frequent. Where if we shifted to the other end of the spectrum and those parents who had three or more kids in the house, those were the ones that were having sex daily or more. Those had a really low number of sexless marriages. And the chart was totally flipped from what I expected it to be. That's right. And so I said, we, you know, we did multiple types of studies with this So I switched to one of the other ones because I just. I thought, this. There's. There's anomaly.

This can't be the case. Like, we had two major surveys completely independent each other. And so he's like, okay, hang on, you know, like, I gotta look at the other one.

And the numbers, right, the numbers came back within. Within expected variances of that numbers came back largely the same. Where those people are saying, no, those of us with kids, we have a much richer, healthier sex life. And that was one of the surprises to me and several of my colleagues that do sex therapy were like, no way. And so for us to step back and look at it, that was a surprise to me and is really encouraging.

Now.

I have lots of theories on what may be going on there, but it's really encouraging for those families that are in that stage.

Yeah, you go parents.

No, that is. Maybe it's the intentionality component, because when you have kids, I mean, it's like, okay, we have, like, you know, 15 minutes. Let's do this.

We got to get after it. Guys. There is. There's so much in this book. But before we go, I want to end with both of you sharing just one nugget of advice that our listeners can instantly apply to improve their sex life. And I teed this up in the intro, said, stick around to the very end. They're each going to share one piece of advice. There's tons of pieces.

Oh, my goodness.

You got to get this book to get the whole enchilada. So you got to get it. But they're going to give you one. But before we even get to that, guys, tell us where we can get the book. I know we can get it on Amazon, all those places, but any place specifically you want us to get it and then tell folks where they can connect with the two of you individually for more of your work, more of what you're doing.

Yeah, well, the joint effort that we have, our research project is called the Marriage Intimacy Project. Yes. And the website that we have created to be a central resource for a lot of different things. Everything from, hey, if you need referral sources for particular specialty, you know, all the way to. You want to see some of the research behind this. You want to see an assessment courses, like, all that kind of stuff is. Is being gradually added and gradually built on secrets of sex and marriage.

Dot com.

Okay, good.

So secretsofsexandmarriage.com from my perspective, if they want to reach me, I'm@shaunti.com that's my.

Website love it, and mine's intimatemarriage.org but you can reach both of us through that. Secrets of sex and marriage.com as well.

Wonderful.

Awesome, you guys.

And before you guys share your nugget, just. We want to give one more endorsement for the work that both of you are doing and this masterpiece that they've created. Secrets of Sex and Marriage. Eight surprises that make all the difference. So before we sign off, though, guys, give us. Give us one nugget.

Yes.

So do you want me to give one Shanti? It would be what we started with and kind of knew would be the case, but the numbers just blew it out of the water. And that's the importance of couples talking about it. You know, we designed the book with the goal of not all couples will be able to do this, but to sit down and read it out loud to each other, to spark conversation, to stop and go, wait, Dr. Mike is totally crazy. That's not how we work. Or not how you work. Or I had one couple say, I told her that's not how. That's not how anybody works. And she looked over at him, said, wait, what? That's exactly how I work. That's what I'm after is those kind of talking about it in the questions we have in the book to ask each other and the exercises that we have. Because the data came back just really profound, that couples that are comfortable talking about sex with each other have much healthier, happier marriages, are much happier with their sex life, with the frequency. Frequency of their sex life, are having much higher frequency, far less problems. It really is kind of a magic key to help improve. And so that would be the thing that I'd say. I don't know what you would add to that, Shanti, but.

Well, my nugget, actually, I was very struck by one of the pieces of data, and you mentioned this Mike earlier. But one of the elements that I think every couple should look at for them is to compare. How often is your sort of ideal frequency? Yes. How often is my ideal frequency? And how often are we actually connecting compared to that? Because the percentage perception, it's usually often one person who's maybe the higher desire person. The perception that the higher desire person often has is, why aren't you having sex? Why aren't you having more sex? Right. And what we found in the data, which just was astonishing, is the vast majority of couples, neither of them are getting as much as they want.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so, like Dr. Mike says, people will inex office. You know, the higher Desire spouse will turn to the other spouse and say, well, why aren't we having more sex? And he always says, that's the right answer. Yeah, yeah, why aren't you? But why aren't we?

Yes.

And so suddenly you're on the same side of the table. And to me, that's the nugget that really makes a difference, is to say, okay, if both of us want to have more connection or better quality or whatever, sit on the same. Same side of the table and going, okay, why? Why not? Why aren't we? And, you know, it's literally, I was. I was hearing from a couple of wives who were actually the. The higher desire wife and their husbands were like, do it yourselfers. And, you know, when they got home from work, they're always like, fixing the cabinets or doing the lawn or the. Whatever. And then just tired.

Yeah.

You know, once the kids got to bed, just really kind of too tired for that and realizing, okay, so. But he probably wants more, too. And so that intentionality of sitting down on the same side of the table, so to speak with the husbands. Sure. And saying, okay, is there, like a day that you can do the punch list of the DIY stuff and not do it on Tuesday and Thursday nights? You know, I mean, it's. It's. Some of that stuff is so simple and yet how profound. Yes.

It really is. And like you said, those little things add up and can lead to big changes and really just more understanding, you know, And I love how you talked about reading out loud and just, you know, because what the book will do if people do that, or even just reading individually, but making sure you're taking time to come together and talk about it. I think that couples will have these epiphanies that they've never had before, because like you said, maybe they're asking the wrong question that they didn't even know they should be asking, you know, and could ask and really just having that communication. You know, we always say that great sex really starts with great communication. I mean, it's that talking that leads to these.

We can prove that to you now.

Exactly. Exactly. That's right.

I really believe what you. What you created here is one of the most helpful and practical resources for healthy sex life that. That we've seen, and it's so needed. And I just want to encourage all the listeners or those who are watching on YouTube, wherever you're getting this, to go out and get the book. It's available now, Secrets of Sex and Marriage. Go to that website that Dr. Mike and Shanti gave you secretsofsexandmarriage.com for the kind of the full deal of the research and all they've created. Or you can get this wherever books are sold and continue to connect with them. IntimateMarriage.org and Shaunti S-H-A-U-N-T I.com you guys are amazing.

Yes.

And thank you for sharing with us and thank you for sharing this book with the world. We appreciate it.

Thank you guys.

Thanks. Thanks for what you do.